November 10, 2025 • 54 mins
This week we feature Dr. Emily Gee, the Director of the Musicians’ Wellness Program at the University of Colorado in Boulder. She is a licensed physical therapist (PT) and certified yoga instructor with a background in music. As a cellist, she battled playing-related injuries during music conservatory that led to a career path. Throughout her own physical recovery, she saw a great need for healthcare providers who better understood the physical, mental and emotional demandsplaced on musicians throughout their careers, and has dedicated her time serving the music community as a clinician, educator, advocate and resource to promote health and wellness among musicians.
Discover more about Emily's work: https://www.colorado.edu/music/emily-gee
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Episode Transcript
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(00:03):
Hello and welcome back to another episode of The Conscious
Artist, a safe space for conversations around mental
health awareness for musicians, artists, and all human beings.
I am your host, Pallavi Mahidera, and I'm thrilled that
you are joining us today. I love the community we have
developed together through this show, and I'm committed to
continuing to give a platform for voices and stories to be
(00:26):
shared. When we allow others and
ourselves to feel seen and heard.
We create much needed change in this industry and in this world.
So thank you for supporting thiscommunity.
Don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts
and let's get started. My guest today is the Director
(00:52):
of Musicians Wellness Program atthe University of Colorado in
Boulder. She is a licensed physical
therapist and certified yoga instructor with a background in
music. As a cellist, she battled
playing related injuries during music Conservatory that led to a
change in her career. Throughout her own physical
recovery, she saw a great need for healthcare providers who
better understood the physical, mental and emotional demands
(01:15):
placed on musicians throughout their careers and has dedicated
her time serving the music community as a clinician,
educator, advocate, and resourceto promote health and Wellness
among musicians. It is a great pleasure to
welcome Doctor Emily Chi to the Conscious Artist.
Emily, thank you so much for being here today.
Thank you so much for having me.I'm excited to be here your.
Mission is exactly what we need in our industry, and I'm so
(01:37):
grateful to artists and humans like you that recognize the gaps
in mental and physical health awareness in the classical music
world and seek to fill those spaces with practical tools and
learned knowledge and life experiences.
So truly, thank you for the workthat you're doing.
It's absolutely my pleasure. It's exciting to see just kind
of all of my different experiences and life experiences
(01:58):
coming together in this new position that I'm in, yeah.
It's incredible. I'd love to start from the
beginning if that's OK with you.I know that as a cellist you
were studying in music Conservatory, you were studying
seriously and you faced some injuries in school that
unfortunately seemed to be career deterring.
Would you mind sharing with us what happened and what changed
(02:19):
your trajectory? Absolutely, yeah.
I was a cellist for many, many years.
And I think like many of us, youhave to start early and then you
kind of are planning your life ahead of you in terms of I'm
going to be a professional musician and I want to do all
these things. And so in about my junior year
of college, I was a cello performance major and I started
having some pain kind of in my left shoulder and it started
(02:41):
spreading down my left arm a bitas well.
And at that time I was playing quite a bit during that one
semester, it was like maybe 2 chamber groups and then some
outside gigs and a couple different orchestras at school.
And so there's just a lot of playing during that time.
And by the end of I think like kind of my recital week, it
started getting worse. So I was having more pain kind
of near my collarbone. And then the referred pain that
(03:03):
I was having had just gotten really intense as well.
I started having some numbness and tingling too, kind of into
my 4th and 5th fingers in my left hand and definitely was was
feeling like something was wrong.
So I, I sought out some help from a physical therapist, my
dad's actually a physical therapist as well.
So I kind of had that upbringingof like, OK, if you need help
with movement patterns or if youneed help with pain, maybe try
(03:23):
and seek out a physical therapist.
So saw some people and I kind ofended up getting stuck in the
medical system a bit at that point because people couldn't
quite find one specific thing that they thought was causing
all these different symptoms. So that took a while.
They were, you know, MRI's of myshoulder, there was ultrasounds
of my forearm and my shoulder aswell, X-rays and MRI's of my
(03:47):
neck. Like there just there was a lot
of testing that was done to kindof figure out what was
happening. And eventually I came back with
a diagnosis of thoracic outlet syndrome on my left side.
So that is a nerve entrapment disorder.
So it was affecting the brachialplexus, which is a nerve complex
that sits underneath sort of your collarbone and then
supplies the nerves for your entire arm and hand as well.
(04:08):
So with compression there, I waslosing some circulation, but
also then kind of some motor control in my left hand.
Wow, thank you so much for sharing this with us.
Can I ask, just to better understand for myself and for
our listeners, is thoracic outlet syndrome?
Is this something that can be always there?
Is that something that develops?Is it something that can be
treated and cured? Is it something that is chronic?
(04:30):
Could you give us a little bit more information?
Absolutely, Yeah. So again, everyone is different.
So I'd say I can speak from kindof my own experience as well as
now having treated many patientswho are experiencing thoracic
outlet syndrome symptoms as well.
It is sort of a cluster of many different symptoms.
Oftentimes again, is caused by things that compress this nerve
complex that's underneath the collarbone called your brachial
(04:52):
plexus. So people will have different
symptoms depending on which structures are getting
compressed. So it could lead to some
circulation issues down the arm,could be more of some muscle
wasting because of nerve compression that's happening
too. And then kind of those nervy
symptoms. So pain, numbness, tingling, all
of those kinds of things. And then, yeah, it is definitely
(05:13):
something that comes on over time.
This isn't something that's going to kind of not be there
one day and then come on with all of those symptoms the next
day probably. I mean, it's something that is
is oftentimes happening over a long period of time.
And for many of us, I think as musicians, when we're in
specific positions for a long time where maybe our shoulders
are a little bit more forward, we're requiring a lot of fine
(05:35):
motor control from certain areasof our body, maybe we're not
breathing quite as well. All those factors can kind of
impact the risk of developing something like thoracic.
For me, it did kind of become a little bit chronic.
I think I struggled with the symptoms for about 3 to 4 years.
And again, some people will kindof have them for even longer,
others may be shorter, but it really just is kind of case
(05:56):
dependent. It sounds a little bit similar
to focal dystonia. Is that true?
I wouldn't say they are completely connected.
I think in my case I ended up developing A secondary focal
dystonia because of kind of playing through the symptoms of
thoracic outlet syndrome for a long time.
And so that kind of happened in my case.
(06:17):
But definitely not everyone withthoracic outlet syndrome will
develop kind of the the crampingin the hand or like the specific
motor control issues that are associated more with focal
dystonia. I see.
And is it something that from the way you're describing it, is
it something that's preventable?Yes.
Absolutely. OK.
And so this, if I understand correctly, this is what sort of
(06:39):
led you down the path that you have taken in terms of actually
combining the medical and scientific aspect of how our
bodies work with the musician aspect of what we actually do
concretely on a day-to-day basis.
Because I mean, I think a lot ofinjuries that a lot of musicians
face are preventable with the right care.
(07:01):
And, you know, you're, you're saying that it was three to four
years of playing with these symptoms and, and sort of this
pain. I mean, first of all, as
students, so many of us, especially when we're younger,
don't even register the pain. Or if we're serious music
students, we're like, well, I guess that's just part and
parcel of what we do. And then at the time that you
(07:21):
know it, I think you and I were students, we also didn't
necessarily have a lot of support from teachers in terms
of scientific support, knowledge, experience of OK,
this is happening because of XYZreason.
Like we need to prevent this getting worse.
Did you have any teachers that were advising you at that time
(07:44):
in terms of like what direction to take with either any sort of
prevention or? I'd say I definitely had
professors at the time who were supportive and understanding of
my need to take some time away from the instrument or kind of
seek the medical help that I wasneeding to seek at the time.
Because they saw kind of how severe my symptoms had got and
(08:06):
how it was impacting sort of notonly what I could do with the
cello, but also so many other aspects of my life at the time
as well. So definitely had people who
were like happy to listen to me talk about the things and kind
of the challenges I was going through.
But there, and again, I don't blame them for this at all, but
they they didn't know exactly what to advise me on, right?
(08:27):
It was like they could understand, like, yes, I see
that that this is not right. But also, you know, aside from
being like, well, I definitely think you should go to a doctor.
There wasn't a whole lot that they knew.
I don't think in terms of what things maybe we should change in
terms of our lessons or how could we look at things a little
bit differently or what are you doing in the practice room for
so many hours and why are you there for that, that much time,
(08:49):
right? Like there wasn't.
I don't think that larger discussion happening of, OK,
maybe we need to change some things in terms of how you're
thinking about practicing or theways that you're practicing or
why you're practicing for so many hours as well.
Yeah. I mean, it was a lack of
awareness. I mean, I used to practice 8
hours a day in high school. And frankly, I don't think I
needed all 8 hours, maybe six hours.
Because you know, when you're younger, there is a certain
(09:10):
level of, I would say, repetition of muscle that you
need to develop just simply practicing and like repeating
things. But at the same time, I'm sure
there was so much that I was being inefficient with.
And it's a much longer discussion, but also because I
wasn't sleeping, because I wouldsleep like 3-4 hours a night and
then I was falling asleep while I was practicing.
(09:31):
Went to regular school too. And I piled on everything.
You know, like we, we, this wasn't part of, of daily
conversation. And I remember constantly having
pain in my neck and shoulders, like upper back growing up and
thinking, well, you know, I'm a pianist.
I'm always going to have this pain.
And it was only when I moved to Europe when I was 23 that I
(09:53):
understood I had been sitting too low at the piano my entire
life because the benches in America at that time would only
it was the manually like wheel, you know, with the wheels
rolling them up. And they would never go high
enough for me. And it was only when I got to
Europe and I suddenly discoveredhydraulic benches that went much
(10:15):
higher that I realized I'd been sitting too low and I wasn't
sitting right for my body posture.
Like you're training to be a concert pianist, you're
studying, you've been playing for 20 years now, and you
haven't been sitting correctly. Like that was mind boggling to
me. Oh, absolutely.
And I think there were certain things, you know, even just
simple things that I realized I could start doing right, like
(10:36):
bringing a cushion with me to like slightly slant myself in a
chair to be a little more comfortable with my cello.
Right ergonomics. Yeah, exactly right.
Just like these little things oreven like getting a posture peg
for my cello, like completely changed things, but I didn't do
it until after sort of after thefact.
So again, I just, yeah, I don't think that it was being talked
about as much back at least whenI was in school.
I think it's getting better now,hopefully.
(10:58):
But yeah, right. They're just weren't those
conversations happening? And I think there was also this
sense of, oh, I have to be in the practice room all the time
because if I'm not, other peopleare going to wonder like, oh,
she doesn't practice that much, right?
There's almost like a sense of competition, I think with other
students of like, how much can you be in the practice room all
the time? Oh, my goodness.
Especially in Conservatory environments, especially at that
time, Yeah. So again, hopefully the
(11:19):
atmosphere is is changing kind of the environments are changing
a bit. Well, I think the fact that
you're the director of Yeah, Musicians Wellness program at at
Boulder and I read the description of the program, it
is absolutely fantastic. It is everything that I talk
about with my students. It's everything that I work on
with myself. So please tell us what drew you
(11:39):
into actually going down this path once you became aware of
this world and the knowledge andthe the tools that you could
actually apply directly to musicand being a musician physically,
What inspired you to actually godown this path professionally?
Yeah, I know. It's such a good question.
When I stepped away from the music program because I kind of
(12:02):
had to take a medical leave of absence because I really
couldn't continue at that point.Ended up in a lot of a lot of
physical therapy. So like years of physical
therapy and working with the folks at UC San Francisco.
And some of the folks there had worked quite a bit with
musicians but weren't musicians themselves.
And then others were just kind of, you know, excellent medics
and doing what they were doing, but didn't really understand
(12:24):
always the kind of the unique physical and mental and
emotional challenges that come with being a musician.
So I did feel like at different times I was kind of teaching
them a little bit about what I needed to do to and how I was
using my body as a musician and what the challenges were and all
of that. So that really kind of got me
interested. Once I sort of decided that I
(12:45):
didn't think I could go back to the program because I would it
would be rushing my recovery toomuch, I just decided finally to
kind of put my body first. So, yeah, sort of went down this
path of trying to become a physical therapist and had
always envisioned eventually returning kind of to serve the
musician community in these waysthat I hadn't maybe had access
(13:05):
to providers who directly knew what it was to be in the music
world. And kind of feeling like, oh,
maybe I can fill that gap a bit for others and try to help
others prevent a story like minefrom happening.
But how brilliant is that? We need that.
We need that so much. I mean, it sounds like you were
sort of having to tell them likethis is how you need to help me,
(13:26):
rather than in a way like them understanding and knowing
because of that gap in awareness, right?
A little bit, yeah, right. I would bring my cello in to,
like, actually show them what I would need to do, you know, And
but there was occasionally just,yeah, this disconnect, a little
bit of like, OK, well, like it, you know, it seems like your
fingers are moving, you know, really fast.
(13:47):
But I know you're telling us they're not moving fast enough,
you know, or things like, you know, well, why can't you just
lie down in the middle of rehearsal and, you know, take a
break and do your stretches and then get back in?
You know what I was like. It's just not quite how it works
right now. So yeah, some of these just kind
of slight disconnect pieces. And then again, kind of thinking
for myself like longevity wise, a prognosis for something like
(14:10):
thoracic outlet syndrome and focal dystonia is really
challenging, right? There isn't this specific amount
of time like with a rotator cuffrepair or something like that
where you say, OK, within, you know, this many months or you
know, you know, this many years,you'll be fully back to, you
know, your full capabilities. Like there, there really wasn't
a timeline as well. And so that was really
(14:31):
challenging for me thinking whenI was, you know, in my 20s going
like, well, how much longer do Iwant to put my life on hold?
And is that a healthy thing to do instead of just kind of
deciding to allow myself to moveinto some other adventures and,
and open myself up to other possibilities?
And I really think that was probably one of the most
challenging things I've ever done, but also probably one of
(14:53):
the best things I've ever done. But that's so astute of you to
recognize that there could be other paths and other avenues,
and recognize that it might be ahealthier choice for your own
mental and physical longevity toactually pivot, right?
Absolutely. And again, I, I'm very grateful
(15:14):
to like my family and some closefriends during that time too,
who were just very supportive of, of everything that I was
going through. I mean, it was a, it was not an
easy time in my life for sure. I think we connect our identity
so much as musicians, especiallyI think like in our, you know,
in our teens and our early 20s with like, this is who we are
and this is my path. This is everything that I am,
(15:35):
right. And so to feel like you're
losing that is terrifying. And so, you know, I think that
was extremely challenging and itprobably its lowest points just
really devastating. And to kind of be like, OK, is
this where I want to be? Or can I imagine maybe finding
something else that I can be passionate about as much as I'm
(15:57):
passionate about music? And I feel really grateful that
I have found something like that.
This has been a recurring theme on my podcast since season 1
about identity. And I have spoken about it with
different people, with scientists, with psychiatrists,
with musicians, with, you know, non musical colleagues about
(16:19):
this, about the two concepts of identity fusion and identity
foreclosure, and essentially this idea of not being able to
separate who we are from what wedo.
And I think it is particularly difficult for artists because it
isn't a job, it's a way of life.And I, I mean, actually last
(16:39):
season and this season, almost every episode of talked, we've
talked about this with, with guests.
And so I'm, I'm really glad you're bringing this up because
I think it's so vital to understand what it is that makes
us tick, because it isn't alwaysnecessarily the thing that we do
or the thing that we I think it is.
(17:01):
And I'll give you know, a clearer example of that.
What I mean by that in my first season, I had a brilliant
neuroscientist, Dr. Maya Shankaron the podcast.
She has her own podcast called ASlight Change of Plans.
She is absolutely brilliant. I talk about her all the time.
She's also an old friend. We were talking about this
concept of identity foreclosure.And I was explaining to her that
(17:23):
when I was younger, I thought that sort of my purpose in life
was to play the piano. And then as I got older and I
started teaching as well, I thought, oh, maybe it's to share
music, you know, through performance and through teaching
and like this. And then when I started the
podcast, I realized maybe my purpose in life is simply to
(17:45):
share. And I had never really thought
about boiling it down to simply something so broad and basic, so
to say. And Maya said something to me,
and I've quoted this many times in episodes, and so apologies to
my regular listeners, but she said, Pallavi, I hope that
(18:05):
you'll be able to play the pianofor the rest of your life.
But I know that you can share for the rest of your life.
And that was so powerful to me because it really sort of helped
to take a little bit of a degreeout of this connection with
quote UN quote what I do becauserealizing that the bottom line
(18:26):
thing that fills me and gives methat sense of purpose in life is
sharing. Whether it's, you know, sharing
this music that I love or sharing a conversation with
someone or sharing my deepest emotions through the music or
through a conversation or sharing resources or sharing a
(18:46):
meal with someone, it is sharing.
That's what fills me. And so I would love to ask you,
what is it for you if you can extract something from what it
was in playing the cello and what it is through physical
therapy and everything that you do in this work, what is that
bottom line that connects the thread?
(19:07):
Wow, That is, that is such a question.
No, I love that. And I I so appreciate your
thoughts on that because I thinkthat's absolutely so important
for us to think about as musicians to like, open up our
thoughts to like, what are all the things that I can do because
I've trained as a musician, right?
Instead of just, oh, the only thing that I can do as a
(19:28):
musician is to play music or to share music.
Yeah. I mean, I really, I don't know
if there's one specific word or mission.
I think what comes to mind a lotis sort of serving the musician
community in a way. You know, maybe that doesn't
always mean that I'm making music with other musicians at
this time, but I'm helping them be able to continue making their
(19:51):
own music, right? And kind of empowering people
with the skills and the tools tobe able to keep their own bodies
healthy for whatever their passions may be, right?
I don't only treat musicians. I spent many years of my PT
career thus far treating folks who weren't musicians.
But we're just. You know, people doing all of
(20:13):
the other careers and activitiesthat they needed to do.
So maybe it's being a caregiver and that's what you need to do
for your daily tasks. So let me help you be strong
enough and have the skills to use your body in the way that
you need to care for your child or care for your, you know,
elderly parent or whoever. So I think that definitely comes
to mind. This education piece almost, I
guess maybe of like helping people learn about their bodies
(20:36):
so that they can prevent their own injuries.
They can use that knowledge in order to keep themselves healthy
and moving and doing all the things that they want to do
because a lot of what we do throughout life requires
movement. And so again, I think that's
where for physical therapists orgo to professionals.
This is so beautiful. I love it so much.
(20:57):
Thank you for saying this. And I mean, I 100% agree.
I think what you're doing in ourindustry is, I will say it as a
performing artist is much more powerful and needed, frankly,
than what I do by performing. Now, I understand that's also
downplaying the effect that music has on people.
And I don't mean that in that way, but I think it's so vital
(21:21):
and so essential that we teach people how to understand
themselves. You know, I used to say take
care of yourself so that you canshow up for others.
And I heard someone say once, when you take care of yourself,
you can show up for others. And it's a tiny little syntax
(21:44):
difference that I think actuallyfundamentally changes the
balance because it's not a luxury to take care of
ourselves. It's a necessity, absolutely.
And it's not, I should take careof myself so that I can serve
others. It's I will take care of myself
and I can help others that like and you know.
(22:05):
No, I love that. I I mean, it's still something
that I'm working on for myself, like this constant reminder.
You. Know that it's not.
It's not I, I, I should never bea secondary thought in my own
life because I'm the one who hasto live with my body.
I'm the one who has to live withmy mind.
I'm the one who has to live withmy muscles.
(22:26):
And so it is 100% up to me to take care of my mental and
physical health and well-being. Because if I want to be 708090
years old and as independent mentally, psychologically,
emotionally, physically, spiritually as possible, I have
to do that work now. And I want to do that work now.
And I care about, you know what I mean?
(22:47):
Absolutely. No.
I actually my class this morning, I teach this Wellness
for musicians class. And our topic for the day was
sleep and rest. And I tried to get that point
across of just like sleep is nota luxury, this is a necessity
for everything that involves your health and Wellness.
Like your sleep will affect everything else.
(23:09):
And kind of encouraging them to like take that seriously and put
that into practice in some different ways.
But yeah, so I completely agree.Well, there's a lot of hustle
culture, first of all, built into the sort of capitalistic US
mindset, but then also in the classical music world, because
(23:29):
we have to put in those hours when we're young in order to
build those skills like they, they do require a huge amount of
sort of repetitive and very disciplined work.
And that can lead to us thinkingand believing this mindset of if
(23:49):
I'm not living and breathing music every second of my life,
I'm a terrible musician. And I remember, you know,
whenever I would, whenever I wasyounger, and I'd hear interviews
of people saying that like they just, you know, they live and
breathe music 24/7 and it's justall they can think about.
And I would think to myself, youknow, I can't live without
(24:10):
music. I absolutely love music and I
love the piano. And it is, it's why I play, but
I don't want to do it 24/7. Like I, I want to watch a movie
or read a book or take a walk orgo on a vacation.
And, you know, I don't carry my instrument.
So if there's no piano, great, I'm on holiday.
And I, I always sort of resistedthat sort of that mentality, but
(24:37):
I still didn't know how to choose what was right for me
until I would say, you know, my 30s and going to therapy and
like unlearning everything I learned as a kid.
And I remember the first time, this was a couple years ago, I
had a guest on my show, a meditation teacher.
(24:57):
And we were talking about meditation and sort of the
benefits of that, but also just general mindfulness.
And this was the first time thatI voiced out loud that I had
started to prioritize sleeping, eating well and exercising over
practicing. And I was really embarrassed to
(25:21):
admit it out loud on the podcast.
And I remember the guest said, why?
Why are you embarrassed? This is not a luxury.
You know, this is not a privilege.
This is essential. This is this is how.
These are the necessities of life.
Exactly. So now I mean, I will.
I tell everyone under the sun who wants to listen.
(25:41):
I tell every single one of my students sleeping, eating well,
and exercising. Before you think about your
instrument, tell us more from your doctor scientific license
perspective. Why are these things fundamental
for the longevity and the well-being of us as artists?
(26:02):
Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think as musicians, we
maybe think of ourselves right in this maybe other category of
of sort of, you know, being creators and being artists and
that we're sort of above maybe some of these other essential
needs sometimes. But I think really, especially
as musicians, what we are primarily doing with our body is
(26:24):
moving it right in some very specific ways that require a lot
of endurance from things like postural muscles and then other
very small muscles often times. And so I think the ways that
like our our mind is working andour bodies working when we are
performing and when we are practicing, it is just so
(26:46):
essential that we are taking care of that first, right?
I think singers oftentimes maybedo it a little bit better than
some of us instrumentalists because their body is their
instrument, right? And so they kind of have to as a
even more so of a necessity. But I think even as
instrumentalists, we just need to consider the fact that we
can't produce sound in the way that we want to unless all of
(27:09):
these other things are are goingwell first.
I really think of musicians and performing artists as athletes.
Yes, absolutely. Say it again.
And yeah, I know there's been, you know, a lot of kind of talk
about this, you know, of performing arts athletes, right?
There's a lot of research now showing, too, with like, you
(27:29):
know, taking sports medicine research and kind of applying
that now to the performing arts medicine world because the
performing arts health research is just kind of slowly getting
up and running now. And there's so much more of it
going on now than there was, youknow, years ago.
But still, we can draw from sports medicine research to say,
hey, we are endurance athletes as musicians, right?
(27:51):
If you are doing a three hour opera, that is a lot of time
spent playing your instrument. Oh my gosh.
Yeah, right. It takes the physical
requirements. It takes the mental focus.
To be able to focus for that long is wild.
Even taking something like breath, right?
And breath control and breath support and knowing how we
(28:11):
breathe can affect all of those things as well, right?
So I think just so, so essential.
Thank you so much for sharing that.
You know, I've had two injuries in my life, music related, and
the first one, I was a teenager.I was, you know, being a bit
silly and arrogant and thinking that I could learn Rachmaninoff
Second Piano Concerto in a week and blah, blah, blah, whatever.
(28:34):
And so I just overstretched A tendon and, you know, that went
into spasm and I had to take a month off not playing with my
left hand. And from that moment, I vowed
never to let that happen again. And I was really intentional and
mindful again, before I knew words like intentional and
mindful, but I was very aware ofthe technique that I was using
with my left hand to release thetension between the notes and
(29:01):
not holding tension in specific in any kind of posture, but
constant releasing. But the second injury that I
had, I was I think almost 30 andhad spent the previous maybe 5-7
years really working on letting go of physical tension.
I thought I was playing very relaxed.
(29:21):
I thought I was very mindful of my posture, all of this stuff.
And it was the day before a concert.
I was warming up very slowly because at that point, and still
do, I practice like 80% of my time slow.
And all of a sudden the muscle from I think it's, I think it
was the trapezius, you know, from my upper back, right side,
all the way up to my neck to thebase of my skull went into
(29:44):
spasm. I couldn't turn my neck to the
right, to the left, couldn't lift my right arm.
Super painful. But you know, going back to
stigma and not being able to sort of have certain
conversations, I didn't cancel the concerts because I had
three, I had three concerts in arow.
The next day it was in France and then the following two days
(30:06):
in Spain. I didn't want to seem weak.
I didn't want to seem unreliable.
I was already prepared, thought I could push through, etcetera,
etcetera. And I went to the osteopath that
evening as an emergency in France.
And the osteopath said to me, you're not breathing correctly.
And I remember just looking at him and thinking, like, I'm
(30:28):
obviously alive, so I'm obviously breathing.
I don't know what you're talkingabout.
And he explained to me that I was only breathing into my
chest. And so I was never actually
taking deep breaths. My muscles weren't releasing
their contractions and I was never exhaling deeply.
And so I was constantly just like holding tension even
(30:49):
through every breath that I was taking.
And after those three concerts, I again had to stop for a month.
I couldn't even lift a plate. And for the next 30 days, all I
did was practice breathing for like probably 2 hours a day or
do it like several times a day throughout the day, lying down,
sitting, standing up. And I would practice deep
(31:11):
diaphragm breathing because no one had ever taught me that as a
pianist. No one ever taught me that I
need to be breathing fully deeply.
Right. It was probably like, well,
you're not a singer, right? You're using your hands to play
your instrument. So why would we need to focus on
breath? I mean, I can't imagine the
number of years I spent holding my breath while playing.
(31:33):
And after those 30 days I completely rewired my system.
I am no longer able to not breathe.
Deeply. Feel like I'm not getting oxygen
if I take a breath and it stops in my chest now.
And so like I'm saying this for everyone listening that you can
(31:56):
change the way your body physically responds, your
physiological responses, you canchange through intentional
practice. It's a practice.
And through that, I linked it for the first time properly to
music. People always said to me, oh,
(32:17):
sing the phrase. How would you sing the phrase?
I I would sing it. And then the teachers would say,
OK, now play it like that. There was no understanding of
the connection between why when I sing it, it makes sense and
why when I play it, it doesn't make sense.
And it's not because, oh, look like you sing naturally.
Yeah, you sing naturally becauseyou're exhaling, because the
(32:38):
only way to produce a sound is to exhale.
And so if I'm consciously thinking about exhaling when I
play that phrase, when I start every phrase, when I start every
piece, when I'm playing something difficult, when I'm
playing something easy, loud, soft, fast, if I'm consciously
aware of exhaling, I am actuallyallowing my body to use its full
(33:00):
capacity. Yes.
And it's like, I mean, it's taken so many years for me to
figure that out and I kind of had to figure it out on my own.
So again, from a scientific perspective, can you please
explain to us why when we exhale, we have full muscle
capacity versus like 50% or something?
I don't know what the actual percentage is when we inhale and
(33:21):
then try to play, and also why exhaling deeply and breathing.
And when we say breathing, we'retalking a lot about exhaling as
well. Why does that also affect our
mental state? Oh yeah, so many good questions
and thoughts here. Yes.
So breathing is one of those again, just incredible tools
(33:43):
that we can use for nervous system regulation.
I think a lot of us right just throughout our day-to-day lives
do kind of develop this more upper chest breathing pattern
and that can create a lot of different things happening.
First of all, we're not then using our full lung capacity and
kind of allowing the diaphragm to fully descend as we inhale
(34:08):
and then right, it kind of relaxes and is this passive
process more on the exhale. But if we are just only
breathing in our upper chest region, then we're also
sometimes over using these accessory breathing muscles,
which are some muscles that kindof go from the neck and attach
into the chest or our PEC muscles that go kind of from the
(34:28):
front of the shoulder and cross our chest in the front there
too. And these muscles help us when
we are, you know, maybe we're running and we're out of breath
and those will kick on that those times and should kick on
at those times to help us breathe, but they shouldn't be
helping us breathe all the time.Does that make sense?
Yes, absolutely makes sense. And if I understand correctly,
(34:49):
that's why if we take like a breath into our chest and we
like really stop it at our chest, that's why our whole
chest lifts, our neck muscles get tight around maybe our jaw
on the side of our neck. Is that that's what you're
explaining, right? Those are the accessory
breathing muscles that are tensing.
Absolutely. So some of those like our SCM
muscle and then our some of our scalenes kind of attach into
(35:11):
some of the upper ribs there too.
So these are all like smaller neck muscles that again can help
us breathe if we really need to recruit them, but shouldn't be
always working to help us breathe.
And that's when we can get definitely like some additional
neck tension, some additional jaw tension just on a day-to-day
basis if those are always working to help us breathe.
Would this be sort of like to give a very dumb example?
(35:33):
Just a very basic example, Wouldit be like the equivalent of
trying to lift a piece of furniture and instead of using
our, you know, our legs, we're just trying to lift it with our
pinkies? Yeah, I think yeah, do.
You know what I mean? Like we're using on.
We're using the wrong muscles todo the big work.
Yeah, I think that could work, absolutely.
(35:55):
And right, we have, you know, a lot of muscles that should be
working when we're breathing normally, right?
Our diaphragm is our primary muscle of breathing and then we
have intercostal muscles, right?So layers of muscles in between
each rib, which are just gently lifting the rib cage and then
letting it fall as we exhale, right.
And if, if we think, just make sure that we think of breath
right in this kind of 360° way so that we're not only just
(36:19):
moving kind of in this front to back space when we breathe in,
but we're also moving out to thesides, right?
There's this lateral expansion that happens, especially in our
lower rib cage where the ribs sort of like lift and rotate up
and out to the sides as we inhale and then they slowly come
back down on the exhale. And these things are so
important too, for just regular breath mechanics and how much
(36:42):
air we're taking in, but also for posture because of how the
diaphragm relates to the rib cage, relates to some of our
core and postural muscles. All of these things interplay.
So sometimes too, if we're breathing in a specific way, we
might get a little flare of the rib cage where maybe it's just
tipped up a little bit in the front.
(37:02):
And that means we're always extended maybe in our back.
And that can kind of interact with how well we can engage our
abdominal muscles then too. So there's just so many things
that breathing mechanics can impact in terms of posture,
muscle function, just air capacity.
But then also again, this nervous system regulation piece
because of kind of how the vagusnerve comes through the
(37:24):
diaphragm and that getting stimulated when we do take a
really good kind of impactful deep breath.
This is so incredibly helpful and it's so interesting because
these are all the things that I think about on a daily basis.
These are the things that I explained to my students, but
not with the scientific languagethat you are able to give us.
(37:44):
I explained to them like, because this is exactly what
happened to me, that if you breathe in and I'll have them do
this kind of exercise, like, OK,let's stand where we are, shake
everything out. But now I want you guys to take
a breath in only into your chest, feel where you're holding
that tension, and then try to walk a step forward.
And they will. And most of them can, you know,
walk. And then I say, OK, release it
(38:05):
back. And then now take a deep breath
in. And I explain to them, I show
them, I demonstrate like how to breathe into your diaphragm.
And I say, now take a step forward.
How does it feel different? And it's like a small thing
because like a lot of us don't even notice when we're holding
tension or that we're holding tension.
And I'll be teaching and I'll say to a student, maybe, I don't
(38:26):
know, let's say they're playing octaves or something that's
repetitive or difficult. And I'll say you're holding
tension in your elbow, release your elbow.
And then they'll immediately release their elbow and it'll be
a lot more relaxed and they'll say, I didn't even know I was
tense. Again, I think this boils down
to the fundamental root, which is we're not taught how to
(38:47):
understand our bodies. And so I would love for you to
tell us more through your own experience with the cello.
And then, of course, everything that you've learned as a PT and
everything you work through as ateacher and a clinician and
everything, what is sort of the first way, first step that we
can take to better understand our bodies?
(39:08):
And I don't just mean in like a scientific way, but like
actually be able to observe and identify sort of how to isolate
different muscles in our body. How do we even get that
awareness? Yeah, I love this question.
Again, it's it's a big question.There's so many ways that can go
with it. I think again, for everyone
opening up that idea that what works for you and what works for
(39:30):
me may be different than the waythat it works for someone else
and kind of making that absolutely OK.
I think this goes for like the language that we use surrounding
like how I feel certain things in my body might be different
from how it helps you to feel itin your body, right?
And kind of allowing that to be normal, right?
That we're all going to have areas that we may be able to
(39:50):
feel quicker or different than others and kind of making that
normal I think is important. First, one of the ways that I
like to go about it in the beginning is to kind of do
somebody awareness exercises andeven something like a body scan.
So we actually start my Wellnessfor Musicians class every
morning with one of these just to try and build it into our
(40:13):
musicians. Kind of habits and routines that
this might be a great way to start off my practice session or
just start off my day to really connect my mind and my body and
to actually check in for a second with myself and see how
am I feeling today. So what that looks like.
People can do this either sitting or standing, but
oftentimes in my class, if they're sitting in their chairs,
(40:34):
I'll just have them focus for a minute first on their breath and
just draw awareness to their breath and just notice what
areas of their body are moving as they breathe.
So we're not placing judgment onanything.
We're not trying to force or trying to feel any specific
things. We're just noticing what's
happening. And I think that really is a
(40:56):
great place to start with being able to then notice any tension
or do you notice any areas of discomfort, right?
And so you can kind of go through each area of your body,
kind of just asking a few questions like this while you're
breathing and then sort of come back kind of into your space.
(41:17):
And it just sets you up a littlebit differently to now we've
kind of connected our mind and our body and our breath.
And now maybe we're going to approach the instrument.
But I have some additional awareness there because we just
practiced it intentionally. I love this so much.
Body scans are the best. Absolutely, absolutely love
this. And I just want to ask a
(41:38):
question because I agree with you that everybody's bodies are
different and what works for me may not work for you and vice
versa. And so I'm giving you tools.
You know, as a, as a teacher, I'm giving you tools.
But what I'm trying to do is teach you to think for yourself,
right? Like I'm trying to teach you how
to be aware of whether it's yourmuscles or your breath or your,
(42:00):
your body posture, whatever it is, I'm teaching you to learn
how to work with yourself to be present, to be aware.
At the same time, we all share the same anatomy in the sense
that like the function of the bicep is the same for each
person, right? Or the function of these muscles
is meant to be the same for eachperson.
(42:23):
So how do we connect that where we are aware of the fact that
everybody will respond differently and everybody's
control of their muscles is different, strength of certain
muscles is different because of course we all don't physically
look the same. So you know, I have a shorter
torso and longer legs and then that's going to change, you
(42:43):
know, the way I sit or stand versus somebody who is built
differently etcetera. But then there are basic things
that like, OK, that, you know, the vagus nerve goes through the
diaphragm. So when we breathe deeply into
our diaphragm, then that is stimulated.
Like those are scientific facts.So how do we combine those two,
whether it's how you're teachingor even how I'm teaching, how do
(43:06):
we actually combine that for ourselves for better 360
understanding? Yeah, No, I appreciate this
question so much. It's something that I am
thinking so much about. I think always as a physical
therapist, like one of my numberone things that I feel like I am
is an educator, right. So that was whether I was
working at the clinic. And then now, especially with
(43:27):
what I'm doing now at at CU Boulder, as yes, I'm a licensed
physical therapist, but I'm herefor my primary role here is in
an educational sense and to really make sure that I am
right, kind of empowering students with that knowledge of
their bodies so that they can take it and move forward.
And so I really think one of theways is to try and help students
(43:50):
find some language of their own of how does this feel to me?
How am I going to remember this?How's my body going to remember
this feeling? And it might not be with the
language I gave them, but maybe they can find some language of
their own, even to help themselves describe it.
Or kind of a cueing, like we do some different exercises, things
like that. So if that exercise helped you
(44:12):
feel whatever it is you needed to feel, whether it was some
chest opening or a fuller breath, maybe you were trying to
breathe into the lower part of your rib cage or into some other
different spaces that you hadn'ttried before.
What was the exercise that got you to the sensation that you
were looking for? And oftentimes with musicians,
that will also translate to a sound that you were looking for
(44:34):
as well. And so I think maybe connecting
those things too can be really interesting to people as well.
Oh, 100%. I love that.
Yes. I mean the sound changes
completely if we're holding our breath, if we're exhaling, if
we're holding tension in our neck versus, you know, we've got
released neck muscles if we're holding tension anywhere sort
(44:55):
of. And, and I, I do want to just
clarify, when I say releasing tension or released muscles, I'm
not talking about disengaged muscles.
Right, right. You know, because I think that
commonly can be a misconception that, well, obviously there's
some tension in the muscles because you have to hold them.
(45:17):
Sure, if I'm standing, but I'm relaxed and I'm standing, my leg
muscles are engaged in a bunch of other muscles that I don't
even know because if I, if they weren't, I would collapse,
right? So I'm I'm yes, obviously
certain muscles are engaged, butthere's a difference between
engaged muscles and tense muscles.
Oh, absolutely right. And again, I think it takes
training ourselves to actually be able to notice the difference
(45:40):
between the two, right? Because again, I think, and I
think this is whether a musicianor not a musician, a lot of us
don't know that we are maybe over tensing or over activating
certain muscles just constantly throughout our day, which is
just tiring them out or making them way more tight than maybe
they need to be even just sitting at a desk, right?
Or, you know, using a computer all the time.
We're driving a lot, right? So I think it needs to be, we
(46:03):
need to practice it right? Of kind of engaging with our
body, finding that mind body connection.
And even like with particular exercises and physical therapy
stuff, I'll talk about kind of this mind to muscle connection.
And that's kind of really where we can start to engage some of
these deeper layers of muscles that are really important to
oftentimes help support different joints or help support
(46:24):
the movements we're trying to do.
But they're not the big outer ones, right?
They're kind of these deeper ones that are doing the behind
the scenes work that really we can't access if we don't have
any kind of relationship with our bodies to start with.
So kind of building those thingsup gradually can be so important
just to find that kind of mind to muscle and and mind body
(46:44):
connection. My Pilates instructor always
says like mind to muscle connection.
It was, you know, only through Pilates that I feel like I
started really making that connection through exercise
where if I do certain things like, you know, if I'm doing
strength training and I'm lifting, but I don't first do
some sort of like shoulder and back activation, shoulder and
(47:08):
back muscle activation, that I'll be tense and, and like
tired and more sore and even have discomfort later in the
day, you know, on one side because one side is weak or
whatever. But if I do these activation
exercises first to actually activate the deeper muscles that
you can't necessarily reach or that are not being given their
(47:29):
chance to be used correctly because the other muscles are
like, oh, I can do everything. Exactly.
Yeah. Then I then I feel that and I
still, you know, I still don't fully.
Obviously I'm not, you know, a physical therapist, I'm not an
osteopath. I'm not a physical trainer.
So I don't fully understand why.But I know that if I do these,
you know, certain activation, muscle activation exercises,
(47:51):
that it has a huge impact. And then so I see, OK, well, how
do I connect that with piano? You know, I tell students all
the time, don't warm up with fast scales.
It's like rolling out of bed andrunning a marathon.
Like what? That doesn't even make sense.
You know, like you have to get your body warm, your breath
moving, like get your body flowing.
And yeah, I mean, some so many things we continue to talk
(48:14):
about. But it's, I mean, thank you for,
you know, for clarifying that. And you know.
No, absolutely. I have percussionists who's a
student of mine that I've been working with.
And she had like some really extreme tension and kind of had
slept on her neck wrong towards the beginning of the semester.
And we looked at her in her practice room and just noticed
like a little bit of kind of shoulders rising a little bit,
(48:35):
maybe some postural things goingon.
And now she's been able to buildin kind of like a a wall sit and
a plank before she does her practicing to kind of right kick
on those deeper postural endurance muscles that then will
help her be able to, you know, practice her instrument just
with less tension of some of those those other muscles kind
(48:55):
of kicking on those deeper ones.I have just kind of some like
quick tips kind of that I share with my students many of the
things that we've kind of talkedabout today.
The first one really is to kind of have this warm up and cool
down routine that is without theinstrument and then also with
the instrument. So maybe that's like getting
your heart rate up in some way, right?
Like a quick cardiovascular warmup, whether you're going on a
(49:17):
walk or something like that, andthen doing some kind of
stretching activity or movement activity to get things moving
that you're going to then use with your instrument.
The next is doing some kind of mind body practice, right?
So maybe it's a mind body scan or maybe it's just some breath
practice in the beginning. And then fuel is my third one.
I think hydration, nutrition andsleep all go into fuel and how
(49:41):
we're going to fuel our performance and our practice.
And then lastly is to use your resources and to seek help as
early as you possibly can. A lot of us, I think wait,
right? I definitely waited way too long
when I was initially feeling some things.
So you know, if you're feeling something that isn't going away
in like 3 days or so, start talking to your teacher or reach
(50:02):
out, Seek help from those resources that you have around
you. Thank you so much for sharing
all of this. I also feel like very good
hearing all of this because I feel like I'm also on the right
path as a human and as a teacher, because these are all
the things that I tell my students as well.
I, I tell them we're first goingto warm up away from the piano
and I get them, you know, working the little muscles and
(50:24):
then the big muscles and like, OK, now let's do some breath
work. I tell them like even if you
just sit for 60 seconds. Exactly.
It doesn't have to be long. That's the length of an
Instagram real think about your breath and try to, for example,
like breathe in for two counts and breathe out for four counts.
See if you can get twice as longon your exhale.
If you can't just, you know, focus that you can do box
(50:45):
breathing. You can do any sort of breathing
technique that you like, only 60seconds, one minute and then you
can start your practice. And I tell them like warm up
with something slow because again, you're never going to
roll out of bed and run a marathon.
So get your body flowing. And then afterwards, are you
taking breaks? Are you, you know, falling
(51:05):
asleep while practicing? Maybe you need to take a nap.
Are you distracted? Maybe you need to take a walk?
Are you like, is your brain fuzzy because you have low blood
sugar or something or whatever? Eat a snack, eat a nourishing
snack, drink some water. Like I'm, I'm so glad you're
saying all of these things like this is just so essential for
all of us. Again, when I'm at home, I see
my physiotherapist every single week for prevention.
(51:28):
It's like a deep tissue massage every week.
And when I was younger and had, you know, tension and pain all
the time, I thought going to thephysiotherapist or the osteopath
or getting a massage was a luxury.
I thought it was something that wasn't, you know, for me.
And once again, musicians are athletes and unfortunately, it's
not yet part of our industry andeducational support to have, you
(51:55):
know, a physical therapist on hand and the psychologist on
hand and all of these things that we actually need to
function well in our extremely difficult, competitive and
emotionally giving fields. But it's, it's a start.
And like your class, I mean, I just, I wish I could be taking
it right now. It just sounds amazing.
(52:17):
And I'm so grateful to people like you who are really helping
to change the direction and the the the course of our industry,
the health of our industry. Yeah, Thank you so much for this
conversation. And again, having I think things
like like this podcast and musicians who are who are
performing in like actively in the performance world, like
yourself talking about this stuff.
(52:39):
I think is just so huge for the trajectory of where we can go
with musicians health and Wellness and with advocating for
improving health and Wellness education, but also kind of
practices in in this field. So I think this is huge.
Thank you so much for being hereon the podcast with us today.
This was an amazing conversation.
I hope we can continue it, hopefully in person sometime,
(53:01):
but I know that this was very helpful for anyone who is
struggling with any sort of missing tools or guidance with
this. And anyone who's out there
studying in Colorado, please go check out this program and if
you can audit at least if you'renot part of the school.
But thank you so much, Emily, for for all of the work that
(53:23):
you're doing and the way you areserving the music community.
Oh, thank you so much. It was such a pleasure having
this conversation with you and being here today.
And I'm also happy to be a resource for anyone who's
listening. So if you're curious to talk
more, or if you're looking for certain resources, please feel
free to reach out. Thank you all so much for
(53:45):
listening. I am truly grateful for the
support. Please share this episode in
this podcast because the more awareness we bring to mental
health, the sooner we can break the stigmas around these topics
and the faster we can help make our world a healthier place.
Don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts
and see you next week for another episode of The Conscious
(54:05):
Artist.
Hello and welcome back to another episode of The Conscious
Artist, a safe space for conversations around mental
health awareness for musicians, artists, and all human beings.
I am your host, Pallavi Mahidera, and I'm thrilled that
you are joining us today. I love the community we have
developed together through this show, and I'm committed to
continuing to give a platform for voices and stories to be
(00:26):
shared. When we allow others and
ourselves to feel seen and heard.
We create much needed change in this industry and in this world.
So thank you for supporting thiscommunity.
Don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts
and let's get started. My guest today is the Director
(00:52):
of Musicians Wellness Program atthe University of Colorado in
Boulder. She is a licensed physical
therapist and certified yoga instructor with a background in
music. As a cellist, she battled
playing related injuries during music Conservatory that led to a
change in her career. Throughout her own physical
recovery, she saw a great need for healthcare providers who
better understood the physical, mental and emotional demands
(01:15):
placed on musicians throughout their careers and has dedicated
her time serving the music community as a clinician,
educator, advocate, and resourceto promote health and Wellness
among musicians. It is a great pleasure to
welcome Doctor Emily Chi to the Conscious Artist.
Emily, thank you so much for being here today.
Thank you so much for having me.I'm excited to be here your.
Mission is exactly what we need in our industry, and I'm so
(01:37):
grateful to artists and humans like you that recognize the gaps
in mental and physical health awareness in the classical music
world and seek to fill those spaces with practical tools and
learned knowledge and life experiences.
So truly, thank you for the workthat you're doing.
It's absolutely my pleasure. It's exciting to see just kind
of all of my different experiences and life experiences
(01:58):
coming together in this new position that I'm in, yeah.
It's incredible. I'd love to start from the
beginning if that's OK with you.I know that as a cellist you
were studying in music Conservatory, you were studying
seriously and you faced some injuries in school that
unfortunately seemed to be career deterring.
Would you mind sharing with us what happened and what changed
(02:19):
your trajectory? Absolutely, yeah.
I was a cellist for many, many years.
And I think like many of us, youhave to start early and then you
kind of are planning your life ahead of you in terms of I'm
going to be a professional musician and I want to do all
these things. And so in about my junior year
of college, I was a cello performance major and I started
having some pain kind of in my left shoulder and it started
(02:41):
spreading down my left arm a bitas well.
And at that time I was playing quite a bit during that one
semester, it was like maybe 2 chamber groups and then some
outside gigs and a couple different orchestras at school.
And so there's just a lot of playing during that time.
And by the end of I think like kind of my recital week, it
started getting worse. So I was having more pain kind
of near my collarbone. And then the referred pain that
(03:03):
I was having had just gotten really intense as well.
I started having some numbness and tingling too, kind of into
my 4th and 5th fingers in my left hand and definitely was was
feeling like something was wrong.
So I, I sought out some help from a physical therapist, my
dad's actually a physical therapist as well.
So I kind of had that upbringingof like, OK, if you need help
with movement patterns or if youneed help with pain, maybe try
(03:23):
and seek out a physical therapist.
So saw some people and I kind ofended up getting stuck in the
medical system a bit at that point because people couldn't
quite find one specific thing that they thought was causing
all these different symptoms. So that took a while.
They were, you know, MRI's of myshoulder, there was ultrasounds
of my forearm and my shoulder aswell, X-rays and MRI's of my
(03:47):
neck. Like there just there was a lot
of testing that was done to kindof figure out what was
happening. And eventually I came back with
a diagnosis of thoracic outlet syndrome on my left side.
So that is a nerve entrapment disorder.
So it was affecting the brachialplexus, which is a nerve complex
that sits underneath sort of your collarbone and then
supplies the nerves for your entire arm and hand as well.
(04:08):
So with compression there, I waslosing some circulation, but
also then kind of some motor control in my left hand.
Wow, thank you so much for sharing this with us.
Can I ask, just to better understand for myself and for
our listeners, is thoracic outlet syndrome?
Is this something that can be always there?
Is that something that develops?Is it something that can be
treated and cured? Is it something that is chronic?
(04:30):
Could you give us a little bit more information?
Absolutely, Yeah. So again, everyone is different.
So I'd say I can speak from kindof my own experience as well as
now having treated many patientswho are experiencing thoracic
outlet syndrome symptoms as well.
It is sort of a cluster of many different symptoms.
Oftentimes again, is caused by things that compress this nerve
complex that's underneath the collarbone called your brachial
(04:52):
plexus. So people will have different
symptoms depending on which structures are getting
compressed. So it could lead to some
circulation issues down the arm,could be more of some muscle
wasting because of nerve compression that's happening
too. And then kind of those nervy
symptoms. So pain, numbness, tingling, all
of those kinds of things. And then, yeah, it is definitely
(05:13):
something that comes on over time.
This isn't something that's going to kind of not be there
one day and then come on with all of those symptoms the next
day probably. I mean, it's something that is
is oftentimes happening over a long period of time.
And for many of us, I think as musicians, when we're in
specific positions for a long time where maybe our shoulders
are a little bit more forward, we're requiring a lot of fine
(05:35):
motor control from certain areasof our body, maybe we're not
breathing quite as well. All those factors can kind of
impact the risk of developing something like thoracic.
For me, it did kind of become a little bit chronic.
I think I struggled with the symptoms for about 3 to 4 years.
And again, some people will kindof have them for even longer,
others may be shorter, but it really just is kind of case
(05:56):
dependent. It sounds a little bit similar
to focal dystonia. Is that true?
I wouldn't say they are completely connected.
I think in my case I ended up developing A secondary focal
dystonia because of kind of playing through the symptoms of
thoracic outlet syndrome for a long time.
And so that kind of happened in my case.
(06:17):
But definitely not everyone withthoracic outlet syndrome will
develop kind of the the crampingin the hand or like the specific
motor control issues that are associated more with focal
dystonia. I see.
And is it something that from the way you're describing it, is
it something that's preventable?Yes.
Absolutely. OK.
And so this, if I understand correctly, this is what sort of
(06:39):
led you down the path that you have taken in terms of actually
combining the medical and scientific aspect of how our
bodies work with the musician aspect of what we actually do
concretely on a day-to-day basis.
Because I mean, I think a lot ofinjuries that a lot of musicians
face are preventable with the right care.
(07:01):
And, you know, you're, you're saying that it was three to four
years of playing with these symptoms and, and sort of this
pain. I mean, first of all, as
students, so many of us, especially when we're younger,
don't even register the pain. Or if we're serious music
students, we're like, well, I guess that's just part and
parcel of what we do. And then at the time that you
(07:21):
know it, I think you and I were students, we also didn't
necessarily have a lot of support from teachers in terms
of scientific support, knowledge, experience of OK,
this is happening because of XYZreason.
Like we need to prevent this getting worse.
Did you have any teachers that were advising you at that time
(07:44):
in terms of like what direction to take with either any sort of
prevention or? I'd say I definitely had
professors at the time who were supportive and understanding of
my need to take some time away from the instrument or kind of
seek the medical help that I wasneeding to seek at the time.
Because they saw kind of how severe my symptoms had got and
(08:06):
how it was impacting sort of notonly what I could do with the
cello, but also so many other aspects of my life at the time
as well. So definitely had people who
were like happy to listen to me talk about the things and kind
of the challenges I was going through.
But there, and again, I don't blame them for this at all, but
they they didn't know exactly what to advise me on, right?
(08:27):
It was like they could understand, like, yes, I see
that that this is not right. But also, you know, aside from
being like, well, I definitely think you should go to a doctor.
There wasn't a whole lot that they knew.
I don't think in terms of what things maybe we should change in
terms of our lessons or how could we look at things a little
bit differently or what are you doing in the practice room for
so many hours and why are you there for that, that much time,
(08:49):
right? Like there wasn't.
I don't think that larger discussion happening of, OK,
maybe we need to change some things in terms of how you're
thinking about practicing or theways that you're practicing or
why you're practicing for so many hours as well.
Yeah. I mean, it was a lack of
awareness. I mean, I used to practice 8
hours a day in high school. And frankly, I don't think I
needed all 8 hours, maybe six hours.
Because you know, when you're younger, there is a certain
(09:10):
level of, I would say, repetition of muscle that you
need to develop just simply practicing and like repeating
things. But at the same time, I'm sure
there was so much that I was being inefficient with.
And it's a much longer discussion, but also because I
wasn't sleeping, because I wouldsleep like 3-4 hours a night and
then I was falling asleep while I was practicing.
(09:31):
Went to regular school too. And I piled on everything.
You know, like we, we, this wasn't part of, of daily
conversation. And I remember constantly having
pain in my neck and shoulders, like upper back growing up and
thinking, well, you know, I'm a pianist.
I'm always going to have this pain.
And it was only when I moved to Europe when I was 23 that I
(09:53):
understood I had been sitting too low at the piano my entire
life because the benches in America at that time would only
it was the manually like wheel, you know, with the wheels
rolling them up. And they would never go high
enough for me. And it was only when I got to
Europe and I suddenly discoveredhydraulic benches that went much
(10:15):
higher that I realized I'd been sitting too low and I wasn't
sitting right for my body posture.
Like you're training to be a concert pianist, you're
studying, you've been playing for 20 years now, and you
haven't been sitting correctly. Like that was mind boggling to
me. Oh, absolutely.
And I think there were certain things, you know, even just
simple things that I realized I could start doing right, like
(10:36):
bringing a cushion with me to like slightly slant myself in a
chair to be a little more comfortable with my cello.
Right ergonomics. Yeah, exactly right.
Just like these little things oreven like getting a posture peg
for my cello, like completely changed things, but I didn't do
it until after sort of after thefact.
So again, I just, yeah, I don't think that it was being talked
about as much back at least whenI was in school.
I think it's getting better now,hopefully.
(10:58):
But yeah, right. They're just weren't those
conversations happening? And I think there was also this
sense of, oh, I have to be in the practice room all the time
because if I'm not, other peopleare going to wonder like, oh,
she doesn't practice that much, right?
There's almost like a sense of competition, I think with other
students of like, how much can you be in the practice room all
the time? Oh, my goodness.
Especially in Conservatory environments, especially at that
time, Yeah. So again, hopefully the
(11:19):
atmosphere is is changing kind of the environments are changing
a bit. Well, I think the fact that
you're the director of Yeah, Musicians Wellness program at at
Boulder and I read the description of the program, it
is absolutely fantastic. It is everything that I talk
about with my students. It's everything that I work on
with myself. So please tell us what drew you
(11:39):
into actually going down this path once you became aware of
this world and the knowledge andthe the tools that you could
actually apply directly to musicand being a musician physically,
What inspired you to actually godown this path professionally?
Yeah, I know. It's such a good question.
When I stepped away from the music program because I kind of
(12:02):
had to take a medical leave of absence because I really
couldn't continue at that point.Ended up in a lot of a lot of
physical therapy. So like years of physical
therapy and working with the folks at UC San Francisco.
And some of the folks there had worked quite a bit with
musicians but weren't musicians themselves.
And then others were just kind of, you know, excellent medics
and doing what they were doing, but didn't really understand
(12:24):
always the kind of the unique physical and mental and
emotional challenges that come with being a musician.
So I did feel like at different times I was kind of teaching
them a little bit about what I needed to do to and how I was
using my body as a musician and what the challenges were and all
of that. So that really kind of got me
interested. Once I sort of decided that I
(12:45):
didn't think I could go back to the program because I would it
would be rushing my recovery toomuch, I just decided finally to
kind of put my body first. So, yeah, sort of went down this
path of trying to become a physical therapist and had
always envisioned eventually returning kind of to serve the
musician community in these waysthat I hadn't maybe had access
(13:05):
to providers who directly knew what it was to be in the music
world. And kind of feeling like, oh,
maybe I can fill that gap a bit for others and try to help
others prevent a story like minefrom happening.
But how brilliant is that? We need that.
We need that so much. I mean, it sounds like you were
sort of having to tell them likethis is how you need to help me,
(13:26):
rather than in a way like them understanding and knowing
because of that gap in awareness, right?
A little bit, yeah, right. I would bring my cello in to,
like, actually show them what I would need to do, you know, And
but there was occasionally just,yeah, this disconnect, a little
bit of like, OK, well, like it, you know, it seems like your
fingers are moving, you know, really fast.
(13:47):
But I know you're telling us they're not moving fast enough,
you know, or things like, you know, well, why can't you just
lie down in the middle of rehearsal and, you know, take a
break and do your stretches and then get back in?
You know what I was like. It's just not quite how it works
right now. So yeah, some of these just kind
of slight disconnect pieces. And then again, kind of thinking
for myself like longevity wise, a prognosis for something like
(14:10):
thoracic outlet syndrome and focal dystonia is really
challenging, right? There isn't this specific amount
of time like with a rotator cuffrepair or something like that
where you say, OK, within, you know, this many months or you
know, you know, this many years,you'll be fully back to, you
know, your full capabilities. Like there, there really wasn't
a timeline as well. And so that was really
(14:31):
challenging for me thinking whenI was, you know, in my 20s going
like, well, how much longer do Iwant to put my life on hold?
And is that a healthy thing to do instead of just kind of
deciding to allow myself to moveinto some other adventures and,
and open myself up to other possibilities?
And I really think that was probably one of the most
challenging things I've ever done, but also probably one of
(14:53):
the best things I've ever done. But that's so astute of you to
recognize that there could be other paths and other avenues,
and recognize that it might be ahealthier choice for your own
mental and physical longevity toactually pivot, right?
Absolutely. And again, I, I'm very grateful
(15:14):
to like my family and some closefriends during that time too,
who were just very supportive of, of everything that I was
going through. I mean, it was a, it was not an
easy time in my life for sure. I think we connect our identity
so much as musicians, especiallyI think like in our, you know,
in our teens and our early 20s with like, this is who we are
and this is my path. This is everything that I am,
(15:35):
right. And so to feel like you're
losing that is terrifying. And so, you know, I think that
was extremely challenging and itprobably its lowest points just
really devastating. And to kind of be like, OK, is
this where I want to be? Or can I imagine maybe finding
something else that I can be passionate about as much as I'm
(15:57):
passionate about music? And I feel really grateful that
I have found something like that.
This has been a recurring theme on my podcast since season 1
about identity. And I have spoken about it with
different people, with scientists, with psychiatrists,
with musicians, with, you know, non musical colleagues about
(16:19):
this, about the two concepts of identity fusion and identity
foreclosure, and essentially this idea of not being able to
separate who we are from what wedo.
And I think it is particularly difficult for artists because it
isn't a job, it's a way of life.And I, I mean, actually last
(16:39):
season and this season, almost every episode of talked, we've
talked about this with, with guests.
And so I'm, I'm really glad you're bringing this up because
I think it's so vital to understand what it is that makes
us tick, because it isn't alwaysnecessarily the thing that we do
or the thing that we I think it is.
(17:01):
And I'll give you know, a clearer example of that.
What I mean by that in my first season, I had a brilliant
neuroscientist, Dr. Maya Shankaron the podcast.
She has her own podcast called ASlight Change of Plans.
She is absolutely brilliant. I talk about her all the time.
She's also an old friend. We were talking about this
concept of identity foreclosure.And I was explaining to her that
(17:23):
when I was younger, I thought that sort of my purpose in life
was to play the piano. And then as I got older and I
started teaching as well, I thought, oh, maybe it's to share
music, you know, through performance and through teaching
and like this. And then when I started the
podcast, I realized maybe my purpose in life is simply to
(17:45):
share. And I had never really thought
about boiling it down to simply something so broad and basic, so
to say. And Maya said something to me,
and I've quoted this many times in episodes, and so apologies to
my regular listeners, but she said, Pallavi, I hope that
(18:05):
you'll be able to play the pianofor the rest of your life.
But I know that you can share for the rest of your life.
And that was so powerful to me because it really sort of helped
to take a little bit of a degreeout of this connection with
quote UN quote what I do becauserealizing that the bottom line
(18:26):
thing that fills me and gives methat sense of purpose in life is
sharing. Whether it's, you know, sharing
this music that I love or sharing a conversation with
someone or sharing my deepest emotions through the music or
through a conversation or sharing resources or sharing a
(18:46):
meal with someone, it is sharing.
That's what fills me. And so I would love to ask you,
what is it for you if you can extract something from what it
was in playing the cello and what it is through physical
therapy and everything that you do in this work, what is that
bottom line that connects the thread?
(19:07):
Wow, That is, that is such a question.
No, I love that. And I I so appreciate your
thoughts on that because I thinkthat's absolutely so important
for us to think about as musicians to like, open up our
thoughts to like, what are all the things that I can do because
I've trained as a musician, right?
Instead of just, oh, the only thing that I can do as a
(19:28):
musician is to play music or to share music.
Yeah. I mean, I really, I don't know
if there's one specific word or mission.
I think what comes to mind a lotis sort of serving the musician
community in a way. You know, maybe that doesn't
always mean that I'm making music with other musicians at
this time, but I'm helping them be able to continue making their
(19:51):
own music, right? And kind of empowering people
with the skills and the tools tobe able to keep their own bodies
healthy for whatever their passions may be, right?
I don't only treat musicians. I spent many years of my PT
career thus far treating folks who weren't musicians.
But we're just. You know, people doing all of
(20:13):
the other careers and activitiesthat they needed to do.
So maybe it's being a caregiver and that's what you need to do
for your daily tasks. So let me help you be strong
enough and have the skills to use your body in the way that
you need to care for your child or care for your, you know,
elderly parent or whoever. So I think that definitely comes
to mind. This education piece almost, I
guess maybe of like helping people learn about their bodies
(20:36):
so that they can prevent their own injuries.
They can use that knowledge in order to keep themselves healthy
and moving and doing all the things that they want to do
because a lot of what we do throughout life requires
movement. And so again, I think that's
where for physical therapists orgo to professionals.
This is so beautiful. I love it so much.
(20:57):
Thank you for saying this. And I mean, I 100% agree.
I think what you're doing in ourindustry is, I will say it as a
performing artist is much more powerful and needed, frankly,
than what I do by performing. Now, I understand that's also
downplaying the effect that music has on people.
And I don't mean that in that way, but I think it's so vital
(21:21):
and so essential that we teach people how to understand
themselves. You know, I used to say take
care of yourself so that you canshow up for others.
And I heard someone say once, when you take care of yourself,
you can show up for others. And it's a tiny little syntax
(21:44):
difference that I think actuallyfundamentally changes the
balance because it's not a luxury to take care of
ourselves. It's a necessity, absolutely.
And it's not, I should take careof myself so that I can serve
others. It's I will take care of myself
and I can help others that like and you know.
(22:05):
No, I love that. I I mean, it's still something
that I'm working on for myself, like this constant reminder.
You. Know that it's not.
It's not I, I, I should never bea secondary thought in my own
life because I'm the one who hasto live with my body.
I'm the one who has to live withmy mind.
I'm the one who has to live withmy muscles.
(22:26):
And so it is 100% up to me to take care of my mental and
physical health and well-being. Because if I want to be 708090
years old and as independent mentally, psychologically,
emotionally, physically, spiritually as possible, I have
to do that work now. And I want to do that work now.
And I care about, you know what I mean?
(22:47):
Absolutely. No.
I actually my class this morning, I teach this Wellness
for musicians class. And our topic for the day was
sleep and rest. And I tried to get that point
across of just like sleep is nota luxury, this is a necessity
for everything that involves your health and Wellness.
Like your sleep will affect everything else.
(23:09):
And kind of encouraging them to like take that seriously and put
that into practice in some different ways.
But yeah, so I completely agree.Well, there's a lot of hustle
culture, first of all, built into the sort of capitalistic US
mindset, but then also in the classical music world, because
(23:29):
we have to put in those hours when we're young in order to
build those skills like they, they do require a huge amount of
sort of repetitive and very disciplined work.
And that can lead to us thinkingand believing this mindset of if
(23:49):
I'm not living and breathing music every second of my life,
I'm a terrible musician. And I remember, you know,
whenever I would, whenever I wasyounger, and I'd hear interviews
of people saying that like they just, you know, they live and
breathe music 24/7 and it's justall they can think about.
And I would think to myself, youknow, I can't live without
(24:10):
music. I absolutely love music and I
love the piano. And it is, it's why I play, but
I don't want to do it 24/7. Like I, I want to watch a movie
or read a book or take a walk orgo on a vacation.
And, you know, I don't carry my instrument.
So if there's no piano, great, I'm on holiday.
And I, I always sort of resistedthat sort of that mentality, but
(24:37):
I still didn't know how to choose what was right for me
until I would say, you know, my 30s and going to therapy and
like unlearning everything I learned as a kid.
And I remember the first time, this was a couple years ago, I
had a guest on my show, a meditation teacher.
(24:57):
And we were talking about meditation and sort of the
benefits of that, but also just general mindfulness.
And this was the first time thatI voiced out loud that I had
started to prioritize sleeping, eating well and exercising over
practicing. And I was really embarrassed to
(25:21):
admit it out loud on the podcast.
And I remember the guest said, why?
Why are you embarrassed? This is not a luxury.
You know, this is not a privilege.
This is essential. This is this is how.
These are the necessities of life.
Exactly. So now I mean, I will.
I tell everyone under the sun who wants to listen.
(25:41):
I tell every single one of my students sleeping, eating well,
and exercising. Before you think about your
instrument, tell us more from your doctor scientific license
perspective. Why are these things fundamental
for the longevity and the well-being of us as artists?
(26:02):
Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think as musicians, we
maybe think of ourselves right in this maybe other category of
of sort of, you know, being creators and being artists and
that we're sort of above maybe some of these other essential
needs sometimes. But I think really, especially
as musicians, what we are primarily doing with our body is
(26:24):
moving it right in some very specific ways that require a lot
of endurance from things like postural muscles and then other
very small muscles often times. And so I think the ways that
like our our mind is working andour bodies working when we are
performing and when we are practicing, it is just so
(26:46):
essential that we are taking care of that first, right?
I think singers oftentimes maybedo it a little bit better than
some of us instrumentalists because their body is their
instrument, right? And so they kind of have to as a
even more so of a necessity. But I think even as
instrumentalists, we just need to consider the fact that we
can't produce sound in the way that we want to unless all of
(27:09):
these other things are are goingwell first.
I really think of musicians and performing artists as athletes.
Yes, absolutely. Say it again.
And yeah, I know there's been, you know, a lot of kind of talk
about this, you know, of performing arts athletes, right?
There's a lot of research now showing, too, with like, you
(27:29):
know, taking sports medicine research and kind of applying
that now to the performing arts medicine world because the
performing arts health research is just kind of slowly getting
up and running now. And there's so much more of it
going on now than there was, youknow, years ago.
But still, we can draw from sports medicine research to say,
hey, we are endurance athletes as musicians, right?
(27:51):
If you are doing a three hour opera, that is a lot of time
spent playing your instrument. Oh my gosh.
Yeah, right. It takes the physical
requirements. It takes the mental focus.
To be able to focus for that long is wild.
Even taking something like breath, right?
And breath control and breath support and knowing how we
(28:11):
breathe can affect all of those things as well, right?
So I think just so, so essential.
Thank you so much for sharing that.
You know, I've had two injuries in my life, music related, and
the first one, I was a teenager.I was, you know, being a bit
silly and arrogant and thinking that I could learn Rachmaninoff
Second Piano Concerto in a week and blah, blah, blah, whatever.
(28:34):
And so I just overstretched A tendon and, you know, that went
into spasm and I had to take a month off not playing with my
left hand. And from that moment, I vowed
never to let that happen again. And I was really intentional and
mindful again, before I knew words like intentional and
mindful, but I was very aware ofthe technique that I was using
with my left hand to release thetension between the notes and
(29:01):
not holding tension in specific in any kind of posture, but
constant releasing. But the second injury that I
had, I was I think almost 30 andhad spent the previous maybe 5-7
years really working on letting go of physical tension.
I thought I was playing very relaxed.
(29:21):
I thought I was very mindful of my posture, all of this stuff.
And it was the day before a concert.
I was warming up very slowly because at that point, and still
do, I practice like 80% of my time slow.
And all of a sudden the muscle from I think it's, I think it
was the trapezius, you know, from my upper back, right side,
all the way up to my neck to thebase of my skull went into
(29:44):
spasm. I couldn't turn my neck to the
right, to the left, couldn't lift my right arm.
Super painful. But you know, going back to
stigma and not being able to sort of have certain
conversations, I didn't cancel the concerts because I had
three, I had three concerts in arow.
The next day it was in France and then the following two days
(30:06):
in Spain. I didn't want to seem weak.
I didn't want to seem unreliable.
I was already prepared, thought I could push through, etcetera,
etcetera. And I went to the osteopath that
evening as an emergency in France.
And the osteopath said to me, you're not breathing correctly.
And I remember just looking at him and thinking, like, I'm
(30:28):
obviously alive, so I'm obviously breathing.
I don't know what you're talkingabout.
And he explained to me that I was only breathing into my
chest. And so I was never actually
taking deep breaths. My muscles weren't releasing
their contractions and I was never exhaling deeply.
And so I was constantly just like holding tension even
(30:49):
through every breath that I was taking.
And after those three concerts, I again had to stop for a month.
I couldn't even lift a plate. And for the next 30 days, all I
did was practice breathing for like probably 2 hours a day or
do it like several times a day throughout the day, lying down,
sitting, standing up. And I would practice deep
(31:11):
diaphragm breathing because no one had ever taught me that as a
pianist. No one ever taught me that I
need to be breathing fully deeply.
Right. It was probably like, well,
you're not a singer, right? You're using your hands to play
your instrument. So why would we need to focus on
breath? I mean, I can't imagine the
number of years I spent holding my breath while playing.
(31:33):
And after those 30 days I completely rewired my system.
I am no longer able to not breathe.
Deeply. Feel like I'm not getting oxygen
if I take a breath and it stops in my chest now.
And so like I'm saying this for everyone listening that you can
(31:56):
change the way your body physically responds, your
physiological responses, you canchange through intentional
practice. It's a practice.
And through that, I linked it for the first time properly to
music. People always said to me, oh,
(32:17):
sing the phrase. How would you sing the phrase?
I I would sing it. And then the teachers would say,
OK, now play it like that. There was no understanding of
the connection between why when I sing it, it makes sense and
why when I play it, it doesn't make sense.
And it's not because, oh, look like you sing naturally.
Yeah, you sing naturally becauseyou're exhaling, because the
(32:38):
only way to produce a sound is to exhale.
And so if I'm consciously thinking about exhaling when I
play that phrase, when I start every phrase, when I start every
piece, when I'm playing something difficult, when I'm
playing something easy, loud, soft, fast, if I'm consciously
aware of exhaling, I am actuallyallowing my body to use its full
(33:00):
capacity. Yes.
And it's like, I mean, it's taken so many years for me to
figure that out and I kind of had to figure it out on my own.
So again, from a scientific perspective, can you please
explain to us why when we exhale, we have full muscle
capacity versus like 50% or something?
I don't know what the actual percentage is when we inhale and
(33:21):
then try to play, and also why exhaling deeply and breathing.
And when we say breathing, we'retalking a lot about exhaling as
well. Why does that also affect our
mental state? Oh yeah, so many good questions
and thoughts here. Yes.
So breathing is one of those again, just incredible tools
(33:43):
that we can use for nervous system regulation.
I think a lot of us right just throughout our day-to-day lives
do kind of develop this more upper chest breathing pattern
and that can create a lot of different things happening.
First of all, we're not then using our full lung capacity and
kind of allowing the diaphragm to fully descend as we inhale
(34:08):
and then right, it kind of relaxes and is this passive
process more on the exhale. But if we are just only
breathing in our upper chest region, then we're also
sometimes over using these accessory breathing muscles,
which are some muscles that kindof go from the neck and attach
into the chest or our PEC muscles that go kind of from the
(34:28):
front of the shoulder and cross our chest in the front there
too. And these muscles help us when
we are, you know, maybe we're running and we're out of breath
and those will kick on that those times and should kick on
at those times to help us breathe, but they shouldn't be
helping us breathe all the time.Does that make sense?
Yes, absolutely makes sense. And if I understand correctly,
(34:49):
that's why if we take like a breath into our chest and we
like really stop it at our chest, that's why our whole
chest lifts, our neck muscles get tight around maybe our jaw
on the side of our neck. Is that that's what you're
explaining, right? Those are the accessory
breathing muscles that are tensing.
Absolutely. So some of those like our SCM
muscle and then our some of our scalenes kind of attach into
(35:11):
some of the upper ribs there too.
So these are all like smaller neck muscles that again can help
us breathe if we really need to recruit them, but shouldn't be
always working to help us breathe.
And that's when we can get definitely like some additional
neck tension, some additional jaw tension just on a day-to-day
basis if those are always working to help us breathe.
Would this be sort of like to give a very dumb example?
(35:33):
Just a very basic example, Wouldit be like the equivalent of
trying to lift a piece of furniture and instead of using
our, you know, our legs, we're just trying to lift it with our
pinkies? Yeah, I think yeah, do.
You know what I mean? Like we're using on.
We're using the wrong muscles todo the big work.
Yeah, I think that could work, absolutely.
(35:55):
And right, we have, you know, a lot of muscles that should be
working when we're breathing normally, right?
Our diaphragm is our primary muscle of breathing and then we
have intercostal muscles, right?So layers of muscles in between
each rib, which are just gently lifting the rib cage and then
letting it fall as we exhale, right.
And if, if we think, just make sure that we think of breath
right in this kind of 360° way so that we're not only just
(36:19):
moving kind of in this front to back space when we breathe in,
but we're also moving out to thesides, right?
There's this lateral expansion that happens, especially in our
lower rib cage where the ribs sort of like lift and rotate up
and out to the sides as we inhale and then they slowly come
back down on the exhale. And these things are so
important too, for just regular breath mechanics and how much
(36:42):
air we're taking in, but also for posture because of how the
diaphragm relates to the rib cage, relates to some of our
core and postural muscles. All of these things interplay.
So sometimes too, if we're breathing in a specific way, we
might get a little flare of the rib cage where maybe it's just
tipped up a little bit in the front.
(37:02):
And that means we're always extended maybe in our back.
And that can kind of interact with how well we can engage our
abdominal muscles then too. So there's just so many things
that breathing mechanics can impact in terms of posture,
muscle function, just air capacity.
But then also again, this nervous system regulation piece
because of kind of how the vagusnerve comes through the
(37:24):
diaphragm and that getting stimulated when we do take a
really good kind of impactful deep breath.
This is so incredibly helpful and it's so interesting because
these are all the things that I think about on a daily basis.
These are the things that I explained to my students, but
not with the scientific languagethat you are able to give us.
(37:44):
I explained to them like, because this is exactly what
happened to me, that if you breathe in and I'll have them do
this kind of exercise, like, OK,let's stand where we are, shake
everything out. But now I want you guys to take
a breath in only into your chest, feel where you're holding
that tension, and then try to walk a step forward.
And they will. And most of them can, you know,
walk. And then I say, OK, release it
(38:05):
back. And then now take a deep breath
in. And I explain to them, I show
them, I demonstrate like how to breathe into your diaphragm.
And I say, now take a step forward.
How does it feel different? And it's like a small thing
because like a lot of us don't even notice when we're holding
tension or that we're holding tension.
And I'll be teaching and I'll say to a student, maybe, I don't
(38:26):
know, let's say they're playing octaves or something that's
repetitive or difficult. And I'll say you're holding
tension in your elbow, release your elbow.
And then they'll immediately release their elbow and it'll be
a lot more relaxed and they'll say, I didn't even know I was
tense. Again, I think this boils down
to the fundamental root, which is we're not taught how to
(38:47):
understand our bodies. And so I would love for you to
tell us more through your own experience with the cello.
And then, of course, everything that you've learned as a PT and
everything you work through as ateacher and a clinician and
everything, what is sort of the first way, first step that we
can take to better understand our bodies?
(39:08):
And I don't just mean in like a scientific way, but like
actually be able to observe and identify sort of how to isolate
different muscles in our body. How do we even get that
awareness? Yeah, I love this question.
Again, it's it's a big question.There's so many ways that can go
with it. I think again, for everyone
opening up that idea that what works for you and what works for
(39:30):
me may be different than the waythat it works for someone else
and kind of making that absolutely OK.
I think this goes for like the language that we use surrounding
like how I feel certain things in my body might be different
from how it helps you to feel itin your body, right?
And kind of allowing that to be normal, right?
That we're all going to have areas that we may be able to
(39:50):
feel quicker or different than others and kind of making that
normal I think is important. First, one of the ways that I
like to go about it in the beginning is to kind of do
somebody awareness exercises andeven something like a body scan.
So we actually start my Wellnessfor Musicians class every
morning with one of these just to try and build it into our
(40:13):
musicians. Kind of habits and routines that
this might be a great way to start off my practice session or
just start off my day to really connect my mind and my body and
to actually check in for a second with myself and see how
am I feeling today. So what that looks like.
People can do this either sitting or standing, but
oftentimes in my class, if they're sitting in their chairs,
(40:34):
I'll just have them focus for a minute first on their breath and
just draw awareness to their breath and just notice what
areas of their body are moving as they breathe.
So we're not placing judgment onanything.
We're not trying to force or trying to feel any specific
things. We're just noticing what's
happening. And I think that really is a
(40:56):
great place to start with being able to then notice any tension
or do you notice any areas of discomfort, right?
And so you can kind of go through each area of your body,
kind of just asking a few questions like this while you're
breathing and then sort of come back kind of into your space.
(41:17):
And it just sets you up a littlebit differently to now we've
kind of connected our mind and our body and our breath.
And now maybe we're going to approach the instrument.
But I have some additional awareness there because we just
practiced it intentionally. I love this so much.
Body scans are the best. Absolutely, absolutely love
this. And I just want to ask a
(41:38):
question because I agree with you that everybody's bodies are
different and what works for me may not work for you and vice
versa. And so I'm giving you tools.
You know, as a, as a teacher, I'm giving you tools.
But what I'm trying to do is teach you to think for yourself,
right? Like I'm trying to teach you how
to be aware of whether it's yourmuscles or your breath or your,
(42:00):
your body posture, whatever it is, I'm teaching you to learn
how to work with yourself to be present, to be aware.
At the same time, we all share the same anatomy in the sense
that like the function of the bicep is the same for each
person, right? Or the function of these muscles
is meant to be the same for eachperson.
(42:23):
So how do we connect that where we are aware of the fact that
everybody will respond differently and everybody's
control of their muscles is different, strength of certain
muscles is different because of course we all don't physically
look the same. So you know, I have a shorter
torso and longer legs and then that's going to change, you
(42:43):
know, the way I sit or stand versus somebody who is built
differently etcetera. But then there are basic things
that like, OK, that, you know, the vagus nerve goes through the
diaphragm. So when we breathe deeply into
our diaphragm, then that is stimulated.
Like those are scientific facts.So how do we combine those two,
whether it's how you're teachingor even how I'm teaching, how do
(43:06):
we actually combine that for ourselves for better 360
understanding? Yeah, No, I appreciate this
question so much. It's something that I am
thinking so much about. I think always as a physical
therapist, like one of my numberone things that I feel like I am
is an educator, right. So that was whether I was
working at the clinic. And then now, especially with
(43:27):
what I'm doing now at at CU Boulder, as yes, I'm a licensed
physical therapist, but I'm herefor my primary role here is in
an educational sense and to really make sure that I am
right, kind of empowering students with that knowledge of
their bodies so that they can take it and move forward.
And so I really think one of theways is to try and help students
(43:50):
find some language of their own of how does this feel to me?
How am I going to remember this?How's my body going to remember
this feeling? And it might not be with the
language I gave them, but maybe they can find some language of
their own, even to help themselves describe it.
Or kind of a cueing, like we do some different exercises, things
like that. So if that exercise helped you
(44:12):
feel whatever it is you needed to feel, whether it was some
chest opening or a fuller breath, maybe you were trying to
breathe into the lower part of your rib cage or into some other
different spaces that you hadn'ttried before.
What was the exercise that got you to the sensation that you
were looking for? And oftentimes with musicians,
that will also translate to a sound that you were looking for
(44:34):
as well. And so I think maybe connecting
those things too can be really interesting to people as well.
Oh, 100%. I love that.
Yes. I mean the sound changes
completely if we're holding our breath, if we're exhaling, if
we're holding tension in our neck versus, you know, we've got
released neck muscles if we're holding tension anywhere sort
(44:55):
of. And, and I, I do want to just
clarify, when I say releasing tension or released muscles, I'm
not talking about disengaged muscles.
Right, right. You know, because I think that
commonly can be a misconception that, well, obviously there's
some tension in the muscles because you have to hold them.
(45:17):
Sure, if I'm standing, but I'm relaxed and I'm standing, my leg
muscles are engaged in a bunch of other muscles that I don't
even know because if I, if they weren't, I would collapse,
right? So I'm I'm yes, obviously
certain muscles are engaged, butthere's a difference between
engaged muscles and tense muscles.
Oh, absolutely right. And again, I think it takes
training ourselves to actually be able to notice the difference
(45:40):
between the two, right? Because again, I think, and I
think this is whether a musicianor not a musician, a lot of us
don't know that we are maybe over tensing or over activating
certain muscles just constantly throughout our day, which is
just tiring them out or making them way more tight than maybe
they need to be even just sitting at a desk, right?
Or, you know, using a computer all the time.
We're driving a lot, right? So I think it needs to be, we
(46:03):
need to practice it right? Of kind of engaging with our
body, finding that mind body connection.
And even like with particular exercises and physical therapy
stuff, I'll talk about kind of this mind to muscle connection.
And that's kind of really where we can start to engage some of
these deeper layers of muscles that are really important to
oftentimes help support different joints or help support
(46:24):
the movements we're trying to do.
But they're not the big outer ones, right?
They're kind of these deeper ones that are doing the behind
the scenes work that really we can't access if we don't have
any kind of relationship with our bodies to start with.
So kind of building those thingsup gradually can be so important
just to find that kind of mind to muscle and and mind body
(46:44):
connection. My Pilates instructor always
says like mind to muscle connection.
It was, you know, only through Pilates that I feel like I
started really making that connection through exercise
where if I do certain things like, you know, if I'm doing
strength training and I'm lifting, but I don't first do
some sort of like shoulder and back activation, shoulder and
(47:08):
back muscle activation, that I'll be tense and, and like
tired and more sore and even have discomfort later in the
day, you know, on one side because one side is weak or
whatever. But if I do these activation
exercises first to actually activate the deeper muscles that
you can't necessarily reach or that are not being given their
(47:29):
chance to be used correctly because the other muscles are
like, oh, I can do everything. Exactly.
Yeah. Then I then I feel that and I
still, you know, I still don't fully.
Obviously I'm not, you know, a physical therapist, I'm not an
osteopath. I'm not a physical trainer.
So I don't fully understand why.But I know that if I do these,
you know, certain activation, muscle activation exercises,
(47:51):
that it has a huge impact. And then so I see, OK, well, how
do I connect that with piano? You know, I tell students all
the time, don't warm up with fast scales.
It's like rolling out of bed andrunning a marathon.
Like what? That doesn't even make sense.
You know, like you have to get your body warm, your breath
moving, like get your body flowing.
And yeah, I mean, some so many things we continue to talk
(48:14):
about. But it's, I mean, thank you for,
you know, for clarifying that. And you know.
No, absolutely. I have percussionists who's a
student of mine that I've been working with.
And she had like some really extreme tension and kind of had
slept on her neck wrong towards the beginning of the semester.
And we looked at her in her practice room and just noticed
like a little bit of kind of shoulders rising a little bit,
(48:35):
maybe some postural things goingon.
And now she's been able to buildin kind of like a a wall sit and
a plank before she does her practicing to kind of right kick
on those deeper postural endurance muscles that then will
help her be able to, you know, practice her instrument just
with less tension of some of those those other muscles kind
(48:55):
of kicking on those deeper ones.I have just kind of some like
quick tips kind of that I share with my students many of the
things that we've kind of talkedabout today.
The first one really is to kind of have this warm up and cool
down routine that is without theinstrument and then also with
the instrument. So maybe that's like getting
your heart rate up in some way, right?
Like a quick cardiovascular warmup, whether you're going on a
(49:17):
walk or something like that, andthen doing some kind of
stretching activity or movement activity to get things moving
that you're going to then use with your instrument.
The next is doing some kind of mind body practice, right?
So maybe it's a mind body scan or maybe it's just some breath
practice in the beginning. And then fuel is my third one.
I think hydration, nutrition andsleep all go into fuel and how
(49:41):
we're going to fuel our performance and our practice.
And then lastly is to use your resources and to seek help as
early as you possibly can. A lot of us, I think wait,
right? I definitely waited way too long
when I was initially feeling some things.
So you know, if you're feeling something that isn't going away
in like 3 days or so, start talking to your teacher or reach
(50:02):
out, Seek help from those resources that you have around
you. Thank you so much for sharing
all of this. I also feel like very good
hearing all of this because I feel like I'm also on the right
path as a human and as a teacher, because these are all
the things that I tell my students as well.
I, I tell them we're first goingto warm up away from the piano
and I get them, you know, working the little muscles and
(50:24):
then the big muscles and like, OK, now let's do some breath
work. I tell them like even if you
just sit for 60 seconds. Exactly.
It doesn't have to be long. That's the length of an
Instagram real think about your breath and try to, for example,
like breathe in for two counts and breathe out for four counts.
See if you can get twice as longon your exhale.
If you can't just, you know, focus that you can do box
(50:45):
breathing. You can do any sort of breathing
technique that you like, only 60seconds, one minute and then you
can start your practice. And I tell them like warm up
with something slow because again, you're never going to
roll out of bed and run a marathon.
So get your body flowing. And then afterwards, are you
taking breaks? Are you, you know, falling
(51:05):
asleep while practicing? Maybe you need to take a nap.
Are you distracted? Maybe you need to take a walk?
Are you like, is your brain fuzzy because you have low blood
sugar or something or whatever? Eat a snack, eat a nourishing
snack, drink some water. Like I'm, I'm so glad you're
saying all of these things like this is just so essential for
all of us. Again, when I'm at home, I see
my physiotherapist every single week for prevention.
(51:28):
It's like a deep tissue massage every week.
And when I was younger and had, you know, tension and pain all
the time, I thought going to thephysiotherapist or the osteopath
or getting a massage was a luxury.
I thought it was something that wasn't, you know, for me.
And once again, musicians are athletes and unfortunately, it's
not yet part of our industry andeducational support to have, you
(51:55):
know, a physical therapist on hand and the psychologist on
hand and all of these things that we actually need to
function well in our extremely difficult, competitive and
emotionally giving fields. But it's, it's a start.
And like your class, I mean, I just, I wish I could be taking
it right now. It just sounds amazing.
(52:17):
And I'm so grateful to people like you who are really helping
to change the direction and the the the course of our industry,
the health of our industry. Yeah, Thank you so much for this
conversation. And again, having I think things
like like this podcast and musicians who are who are
performing in like actively in the performance world, like
yourself talking about this stuff.
(52:39):
I think is just so huge for the trajectory of where we can go
with musicians health and Wellness and with advocating for
improving health and Wellness education, but also kind of
practices in in this field. So I think this is huge.
Thank you so much for being hereon the podcast with us today.
This was an amazing conversation.
I hope we can continue it, hopefully in person sometime,
(53:01):
but I know that this was very helpful for anyone who is
struggling with any sort of missing tools or guidance with
this. And anyone who's out there
studying in Colorado, please go check out this program and if
you can audit at least if you'renot part of the school.
But thank you so much, Emily, for for all of the work that
(53:23):
you're doing and the way you areserving the music community.
Oh, thank you so much. It was such a pleasure having
this conversation with you and being here today.
And I'm also happy to be a resource for anyone who's
listening. So if you're curious to talk
more, or if you're looking for certain resources, please feel
free to reach out. Thank you all so much for
(53:45):
listening. I am truly grateful for the
support. Please share this episode in
this podcast because the more awareness we bring to mental
health, the sooner we can break the stigmas around these topics
and the faster we can help make our world a healthier place.
Don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts
and see you next week for another episode of The Conscious
(54:05):
Artist.
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