July 28, 2025 • 43 mins
Afro-Latina conductor, Kalena Bovell, shares her unique journey into classical music. Largely self-taught in her early years, she came to music later than most and navigated a path that was far from traditional. She discusses the importance of forging one's own path in the face of systemic barriers, and reflects on the deeper risks women face when their voices are ignored or dismissed, onstage in the music world, and especially in regards to women's health.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Hello and welcome back to another episode of The Conscious
Artist, a safe space for conversations around mental
health awareness for musicians, artists, and all human beings.
I am your host, Pallavi Mahidera, and I'm thrilled that
you are joining us today. I love the community we have
developed together through this show, and I'm committed to
continuing to give a platform for voices and stories to be
(00:26):
shared. When we allow others and
ourselves to feel seen and heard, we create much needed
change in this industry and in this world.
So thank you for supporting thiscommunity.
Don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts
and let's get started. Today's guest is someone I've
(00:52):
had the pleasure of not only meeting but also working with on
stage. Being an Afro Latina conductor,
she's breaking the boundaries and paving the way for many
young aspiring artists, and for that alone, I wanted to chat
with her. But her story goes beyond those
challenges, and I'm grateful sheis willing to share her story
with us. Please join me in welcoming
conductor Kalina Bovel to the conscious artist.
(01:14):
Kalina, thank you so much for joining us today.
Oh, thank you so much for havingme.
I mean, it's so great to hear your voice again.
Same. It was so lovely getting to meet
you and work with you in South Africa last season.
And for our listeners, a speciallittle fun fact.
We share the same manager, so that feels like an added level
of camaraderie here. Yeah, it was.
(01:34):
It was basically like family members coming together.
I loved it. I wanted to both ask you and
give you the space to Share yourstory today, because in my
opinion, it's one that needs attention and awareness on so
many levels. So if you don't mind, could you
tell us a little bit how your journey began?
So I'm originally from Los Angeles, CA Currently I'm living
(01:55):
in Memphis, TN, but I am the daughter of immigrant parents.
So both of my parents or really my entire family is from Panama,
Panama, but I was born in the United States and so my parents
emigrated to the United States, I believe in the early 80s.
And so I'm a first generation born.
And you know, for immigrant children, it's usually about
(02:17):
academics. You're going to be a doctor,
you're going to be a teacher. However, when I was nine years
old, I just kind of gravitated towards music.
And basically when I was in elementary school, the choir
teacher came around to every single classroom and basically
gave everyone an aptitude test. She would have us sing different
pictures, tap different rhythms.And that was the first day that
I discovered that I could actually do music.
(02:38):
And I remember going home and going to my mom and being like,
mommy, I can sing. And my mom was like, you, you
can sing. And I was like, I know, right?
And I mean, what's what's funny about that story is that before
that day, I had never had any curiosity about music.
I mean, I would never sing alongto the songs on the radio.
I'd never struck a keyboard or anything.
(03:00):
But just all of a sudden, I knewthat music was what I wanted to
do for the rest of my life. And so my friends and I started
the singing group in elementary school.
We would write our own songs. But then it was when I got to
middle school and I was accidentally placed in the
beginning orchestra class or beginning strings class.
It's when I realized, OK, I lovesinging, but I love playing the
violin. And the one thing I did not
(03:21):
realize about playing the violinis the difficulties that are
going to come with being someonewho's very behind.
And so this is all to say, I started playing violin when I
was 11 years old, but I was seven years self-taught, so I
didn't have my first private lesson until I was 18.
And, you know, with my parents being from another country, no
one told them about classical music education, which was, you
(03:43):
know, if you have a student or you have a kid who's seriously
about music, you might want to look into private lessons or you
might want to look into getting them a quality instrument.
No, my parents kind of thought, OK, she's she's getting what
she's getting in high school. OK, that's great.
And oh, she's using the school instrument.
OK, that's fine. And their idea of a better
instrument was, you know, my very first violin was a $200
(04:06):
instrument from the Fingerhut catalog.
And if any of your listeners know about, you know, any
instrument from the Fingerhut catalog, it basically was
firewood. That's what it was good for.
But for me, it was like, oh, this is my instrument.
I loved that instrument. And I had decided that I wanted
to pursue music as a violinist, but I had a physical body that
(04:26):
was prone to injuries. I have what's called scapula
dyskinesis, which is basically it's a mobility issue, so my
shoulders don't move along my rib cage properly.
And so I've been rehabbing that,and it's actually getting so
much better. But because of those issues,
when I was in my adolescence, itmade playing violin really
difficult. I mean, I was always suffering
from tendonitis, whether was it my shoulders, my forearms, I
(04:47):
mean, name it. But I knew that I loved teaching
and I knew that I loved playing the violin.
So I thought, why don't I just merge the 2?
When I got to university, I was a music education major, and we
all had to take a year of instrumental conducting.
And, you know, after four weeks of how do I move my hands, how
to read a score, I remember getting on the box and just kind
of giving that first downbeat. And I was just like, I have no
idea what this is, but I just know that I have to pursue this.
(05:11):
Like, conducting lit a fire in me that I had never felt before.
And it was that day that I decided that I, yeah, I'm going
to pursue conducting. And of course, I went home to my
parents. And I was like, parents, I'm
going to be a conductor. And they were like, great,
what's that? So I worked very hard when I was
still living in California. And then eventually I went
through conducting grad school auditions and eventually got
(05:33):
into the Heart school. And I have two degrees from
heart. I have a masters in music, and
then I have a graduate professional diploma.
And then from there, I was working at a boarding school,
which, yes, is exactly like Hogwarts, except there's no
magic. And then from there, I was just
kind of trying to pave the career.
I was taking auditions, I was covering, I was watching as many
orchid shows as I could. And then in 2019, I took the
(05:56):
audition with the Memphis Symphony and I won my job.
And so I've been living in Memphis, TN ever since.
What a beautiful story and like such a self-taught resilience
championing for yourself story. I love it.
Thank you so much for for sharing that.
And also I didn't realize that we have also like being a being
daughters of immigrant parents in common.
(06:18):
My parents also came to the states in the early 80s and so
that's also, you know, somethingwe share.
Yeah, which is very cool. So it's so interesting because
speaking about being children ofimmigrant parents, especially
who are not involved in the arts, don't know anything about
the arts or like Western classical music, it's really
(06:40):
hard to know what to do for yourchild when they show interest.
And my story was a little different.
I showed interest by myself whenI was 2 1/2 or three.
I used to watch Mr. Rogers Neighborhood and apparently I
like told them one day I pointedto the TV and said I want to
play that. And it was a piano.
And I am very lucky that sort ofcontrary to your story, my
(07:01):
parents took me to a local musicschool, which was a Suzuki music
school in Chicago. And then I had really good
teachers that sort of guided them through the years what my
next steps should be. And so I was able to study with
the best teachers and go to the best schools and have the best
musical education. But my parents didn't know
(07:22):
anything. And it's just simply luck of the
draw. Somebody hears you at the right
time, you know, the right kind of teacher.
And they say, OK, I want to takeyou as a student or let me
recommend you to this person. And it's just, it's so much luck
in that way when you're not borninto an artistic family.
Thank you for sharing your storywith me, because that's
absolutely beautiful. And what's interesting is that
(07:44):
when I was in high school, Monarch was my teacher, Mr.
Monarch. But we all called him Monarch.
You know, Monarch saw how serious I was about violin and
just about music, you know, because all I ever wanted to do
was practice. And so he gave me this list of
private teachers. It must have been an 8 1/2 by 11
sheet of paper that had maybe 20different names on it.
I called every single person. No one ever called me back.
(08:06):
And you know, I remember it. It would be like, hi, my name
is, I'm looking for private lesson teacher for violin.
You know, I'm this, I'm this age.
I'm, you know, I go to this school seriously.
I called 20 people. No one ever called me back,
which I always thought was interesting.
Another thing that was interesting was the person who
did be eventually become my veryfirst teacher was the person who
(08:27):
started me when I was in 6th grade.
And while Taylor was an amazing person, he was not the best
teacher for me. But the reason I bring him up is
because Taylor would always say,oh you know, you should study
with Bill Fitzpatrick. Bill Fitzpatrick would change
your playing. And so when I went to college,
you know, I was actually hangingout with a guy named David
(08:48):
Fitzpatrick. And I never put the two and two
together, but Bill was Davidde dad.
And eventually someone had introduced me to Bill.
And, you know, I remember the first time I met Bill, and Bill
was just kind of like, you know,I feel like I've known you for
most of my life. And I said, yeah, I feel like
I've known you for most of my life.
Well, it's because Bill and I both had Taylor in common, but
Taylor would always talk to Billabout me.
(09:10):
And he would and he would alwaystalk to me about Bill, but he
never once introduced us to eachother.
And I always think about that, you know, the fact that Taylor
could have just given me Bill's phone number, but he never did.
And so I sometimes think about, you know, just the fact that
your path is laid out for you within the universe.
At least that's what I strongly believe.
(09:32):
And so I believe that I was not supposed to meet Bill until I
was in college for whatever reason.
But yeah, there, I mean, there'sso many things that I think
about. What if I had had a private
teacher when I was much younger?What if my parents did know
about classical music education and the various resources?
But also, people don't tell you that in order to be a classical
musician, you do have to have the financial need, you know,
(09:54):
because private lessons are expensive and like, even going
to, you know, music schools or conservatories.
And I mean, like after school programs, those are also an
added cost. And with my parents being 2
working people, it really came down to what is financially
possible and what is financiallyimportant.
So usually a lot of our extracurriculars, there wasn't
(10:17):
money for it within the budget. Thank you so much for sharing
all of this with us. Honestly, what I want to say is,
well, it doesn't really matter what happened then because look
at you now. Yeah, you know, you made it and
you're doing what? Yes, Your path has changed.
You wanted to do violin and thenyou met conducting, and then you
wanted to be a conductor, and you are.
But you have carved that path. And I think that I was very
(10:40):
fortunate to have the support for my parents, both, you know,
with my choices in going into music and being an artist and
also financial support. And I think that I have had a
lot of luck in my life that way.I agree with you that I think
our paths are kind of laid out for us, but we also have to take
(11:02):
the choices that are laid out infront of us.
We have to take responsibility for those choices.
Most definitely, yeah. Because the choices you make
dictate the life that you lead. Right.
And like, I feel very, very strongly that part of my path
and purpose in life was to be a pianist, A musician, a
performing artist and sharing music in the world with with
(11:24):
people, being able to share myself through music with
people. But if I had not studied, if I
had not worked hard and if I hadnot had the opportunities that I
had, I would not be where I am. And so I, I think it is a
combination of both what's sort of like predestined for you and
what you make yours. And yeah, maybe we live in the
(11:44):
matrix and everything is, you know, predetermined.
Or maybe we have free choice and, and, you know, free will.
We'll never really know. But I love that you have shared
your story this way because it'sjust a reminder that we do have
the power to take choices into our hands and to make our lives
what we want them to be. And I think that's so important.
(12:07):
Yeah, most definitely, you know,and, and that's that's why I
say, as I said earlier, the choices we make dictate the
lives that we lead. You know, and it's as much as I
thought that I was going to be aviolinist that was in the cars
for me. But I'm so thankful that I was
able to have the space in college to explore conducting
and that there was that support behind me.
(12:30):
And, you know, I think my parents are starting to
understand a little bit more as to what I do as a conductor.
I mean, before they were just kind of like, I don't really
know how my daughter gravitated towards classical music, but it
makes her happy. And so they really were just
like, if it makes her happy, then we're happy.
But what's really cool is the first time my parents saw me
conduct, I believe it was 2010, I was in college and so I had my
(12:51):
first conducting recital. It's a really big program too.
It was Brahms Tragic Overture, Latombo de Kuporan by Rebel and
then Beethoven 5. I had no idea what I was doing.
And then Fast forward, believe it was 12 years later, I flew my
parents up to Oakland because I was guest conducting with the
Oakland Symphony. And, you know, so for them to
see me in person 12 years later,it was really huge for them.
(13:15):
But really, it was for them to see me in my element, not via
YouTube, not via a computer screen or a television screen.
You know, like, it was just, it was really different.
And I remember asking both of them, I said, you know, what was
that like for you? And my dad was like, that was
exhilarating. My mom was just like, I was so
mesmerized. I couldn't take my eyes off of
(13:37):
you. I truly believe that as a
violinist, I wouldn't have had the same effect, so to speak,
because violin for me always hadso much baggage since I was so
behind. Whereas with conducting, I
started brand new. And so conducting was just kind
of like, let's just see what happens.
And that's what I've been doing ever since.
What a beautiful story. I mean, I'm sure of course it
(13:57):
comes with its challenges. I mean, let's you know, talk
about the elephant to the room, the fact that we are both
minorities here, women of color in an artistic field.
I would love to know if you feelcomfortable sharing, what are
some of the challenges you facedas and after Latina conductor,
Being a woman, being a woman of color, you know, especially in
(14:20):
the conducting world. It's now finally there are more
and more women on stage in frontof orchestras.
We're still so behind there. What was, what's your experience
been sort of growing up with this and working through it?
As I started conducting much later in life, I believe I was
around 2627 when I started, so Ihad the Rose colored glasses.
(14:42):
But as I started studying more and learning more, it was a lot
of similarities and parallels towhat I was facing when I was a
violinist. And so just to tell you very
quick stories of violinist whichwill then relate to conducting.
I remember being in 6th grade and there was a colleague of
mine who said, yeah, you know, you're a pretty good violin
player. I was like, yeah, thank you.
(15:03):
But then he also went on to say,he's like, but you'll never be
good enough because you're not Asian.
And I remember being 12 years old and thinking, wow, this is
going to be the rest of my life.And so as it relates to
conducting the, the biggest elephant in the room is the fact
that I am a woman. And I used to say, I feel like
within society I am a black person and then I'm a woman.
(15:25):
War is in conducting. I am a woman and then I am a
black person. Interesting.
Right. Because I remember actually a
colleague in in college saying he's like, yeah, you know,
you're a really good conductor, but he's like, I don't know,
there's something about, you know, playing under a woman.
It just, it just bothers me. I know people don't mean it
badly when they say that, but it's very hurtful.
(15:45):
No, it is. And so you kind of have to ask
yourself, well, how am I supposed to take that, right.
So I actually took the the different route and I said, you
know, let's unpack this. What is so difficult for you
about playing under a woman? You know, and so we had that
conversation. But but that's the thing.
I mean, there is still this mentality of women don't belong
on the podium or women are not good enough compared to male
(16:07):
conductors. When at the end of the day I
would hope someone just looks atme and says oh there's a
conductor as opposed to oh there's a female conductor.
Oh, for sure, absolutely. Sorry, I'm really curious.
I know it's a slight side note. How was that conversation?
What was sort of the result of of unpacking that?
Well, you know, what was interesting, and I'm interesting
in a great way was that he said this comment around like 20
(16:28):
other people. And so the 20, the 19 other
people were just like, whoa, man, that's not cool.
But as we were all having this conversation, you know, it was
coming from the perspective of this colleague was not used to
seeing women on the podium. And so because it was different,
different is often as often fearful for people because
(16:48):
people don't like change, right,Right.
And so this was a change for himwhich created a form of anxiety
and he didn't know what to do with that.
It's really beautifully put honestly, because first of all
it creates empathy and compassion for the other, even
if the other is hurting you. It leaves space for for
(17:11):
compassion and empathy. But also, it's just a reminder
that every like the way people respond and react and and act
towards others is very much a result of their reality, their
inner. Life what?
They have grown up with what they experience, what they know,
what they don't know. It's so personal and subjective.
(17:34):
No, you're absolutely right. You know, and, and I, and often
as I have gotten a little bit more experienced in this
profession, I often have to remind myself that it's really
not about me, It's about the other person.
I mean, if someone has an issue with something that I do or
don't do, that's not about me. That's about your own issues
that you're dealing with, that you have that you still need to
(17:56):
deal with. Well, thank you for sharing
that. And what about now, post COVID
times, post George Floyd times, There's a lot more movement,
especially in America, to be more mindful of, featuring more
diverse programs, sort of focusing on people of color.
(18:17):
I have mixed feelings about thisalways because on one hand I
would always, and I, I mean always prefer to be hired for
something based on merit. It should have nothing to do
with where I come from, what color is my skin, what gender I
am like, what my upbringing is, what my religion is, what my
(18:39):
political views are like. It should have nothing to do
with anything except can she play or not?
Does she speak to people or not?Does she connect with people or
not? Does this person?
Part of me always feels very frustrated that there is this
distinction at all. And on the other hand, it also
feels like, well, finally, it's part of conversation.
I mean, in my personal experience, I was, you know, the
(19:02):
first fully Indian female to attend and graduate Curtis, the
Rena Sofia School in Madrid, Hans Eisler in Berlin to win a
major prize in Geneva competition.
I was the 1st, and I never thought about it at that time.
I mean, I knew I was the only Indian person at school for the
first couple years. And then actually, another
Indian person came, conductor Vinay Parameswaran, who was also
on my podcast. And suddenly, like the Indian
(19:23):
population in the school doubledand it was like such a big deal.
Then, you know, I moved to Spainand then back to being the only
one. And then I moved to Berlin and
back to being the only one. And it was just something I just
accepted. And now I'm so happy to see so
many young Indian or or half Indian kids studying music and
(19:45):
going to some of these great schools to study, to pursue
classical music because that, you know, there's a whole other
conversation. But that also wasn't part of my
culture, like you said, with, you know, being kids of as
immigrant parents. It's like doctor, lawyer,
engineer for us. Exactly.
Yeah. I mean, for us as a doctor
teacher, right, was because my mom was in education for most of
(20:07):
my life, so there weren't reallymany options.
But you know, the question I have for you though, is, is I
mean, similarly as you asked me,which I'll answer in a second,
but did you see a shift in the repertoire that you were asked
to play after the aftermath of George Floyd?
I have seen a shift in yes, I yes.
(20:28):
The short answer is yes. And again, part of me feels
frustrated because diversity forthe sake of diversity is
pointless. You need to start at the base,
at the roots with education, with opportunities.
In order to give people opportunities, they need
education. Without education you can't get
(20:48):
to opportunities. Without opportunities, you can't
have merit based results. And then just putting someone,
and I say again, I say this as abrown female, putting someone of
color in a top position for something just to fill a quota
is also not fair to anyone. And so part of me feels a little
(21:10):
bit frustrated that suddenly there I see so many programs
where like, there's no longer Beethoven, there's no longer
Brahms, there's no longer Chopin, there's no longer
Rachmaninoff. Yeah, there's a reason that
these composers have lasted and grown their importance over
time. What's interesting is to find
the connections and the stories that we can create with the past
(21:32):
and the present. Oh, I completely agree with you,
you know, and, and so that's, that's what's interesting
because so to answer your question, after George Floyd, it
kind of became the year of, of just black conductors.
You know, everybody wanted a black conductor.
And if you were black and female, it's like, oh, everyone
wanted you double of triple. And so the amount of work that I
(21:52):
received after George Floyd's death was astounding.
And one, I was so grateful because I was able to meet
different orchestras and just learn a variety of music.
But then on the other hand, I felt this pressure because all
of a sudden I was on display, ifthat makes sense, you know,
because it felt as though, OK, I'm walking into this room,
(22:13):
people don't know me. And because you know everyone of
the the black conductor is all the rage right now, I have to
show up and show out, which basically means that I have to
be 3 times as good to prove myself to my white male
counterparts. That's exactly it.
You have to prove yourself. It's like you always feel as
though you need to prove yourself.
I mean, I forget the saying, butI think it's you have to be
(22:35):
twice as good to get half as much.
And my, my friends and I have talked about this, my friends of
color and I, you know, where we have all felt this pressure of
it's all eyes on us because we're either the only black
person in the room or one of a handful of black musicians or
musicians of color in that ensemble.
And so for me as a conductor, before, when I would walk into
(22:57):
the room, no one would know who I was.
And so I would receive little mini microaggressions.
But then once I was introduced as the conductor, all of a
sudden it was, oh, oh, that's a maestro or that's a maestro, you
know, And then it was, it was this complete switch of, Oh,
yes, now you respect me. But before, when you didn't know
who I was, you didn't give me the time of day.
(23:18):
So it's, it's been really interesting.
I have also noticed as you discussed the shift in
repertoire, typically I've been asked to a lot of Latin American
programs since I am a Latina andI have the accent, but I don't
speak Spanish. But you know, honestly, I love
doing any type of music and any type of program.
But it's kind of like you said, I feel as though there needs to
(23:38):
be an authenticity and the way that we are approaching this
music because I've seen so many orchestras, you know, program
the work by black composer and I'll just name a few.
It's always, you see, a Jesse Montgomery, a Hail Stork, a
George Walker, a Quinn Mason. It's the, you know, we need a
black person. Let's check this box or a
Florence Price, you know. But I feel like there is a
(23:59):
better way to marry the two. And as I often say with my
programming, we need to expose people to music they didn't know
they needed to hear, but we alsoneed to expose them to the past
so that we can present them withthe future.
That's really beautifully put. And you know, and this is the
thing that like, I played GeorgeWalker's Second Piano Sonata in
(24:20):
my high school graduation concert.
That was in 2000 and four, 2005.Like that was long before
anybody was pretending to care about, you know, You know what I
mean? No, exactly.
And like my my professor at thattime from high school, Julian
Martin, he's the one who introduced me to this piece.
And George Walker went to Curtislong before me.
(24:40):
And when I played his Sonata, I wrote him a letter.
And I let him know that that I was playing it and that I really
loved it and that I got into Curtis and I was going to go
there. And I was so excited that he had
been there as well. And he wrote me back this like,
beautiful handwritten letter. And I think that's a great
Sonata. And I never once thought of him
as a black composer. He was just a composer.
(25:04):
Exactly, Yeah. Why do we need to sort of make
that separation between oh, it needs to, oh, we need to have a
composer of color, we need to have a composer of this gender.
Why not, hey, this is a really great composer.
This piece is awesome. Let's put it on the program.
Why do we need to? Quantify it.
No exactly. It's it's often like when Marin
(25:24):
Alsop is is interviewed and someof her questions will always be
yeah. So what, what's it like to be a
a female conductor? And her response has sometimes
in, well, what's it like to put on pants?
I mean, I don't that's kind of true.
You know, it's like you never ask a male conductor.
Yeah. What's it like to be a male
conductor? What's it like to go to the gym?
(25:47):
Like, you know what I mean? We're just, we're conductors,
regardless of our gender. How do you like personally sort
of fight against that kind of stereotyping?
What are like, how are you able to sort of move through that in
your day-to-day life, whether it's, you know, in your
day-to-day, everyday life or your day-to-day as a conductor?
(26:09):
How are you sort of able to helpbring more awareness and
education to the fact that we'rejust simply artists?
We're not female artists, We're not artists of color.
We're artists, period. I think that's a really great
question. You know, the biggest thing for
me is whenever I walk into a room, you know, just depending
on the level. So if it's, if it's like
(26:30):
students, if it's college students, I always say, you
know, this is my name. Please don't call me Maestro and
Maestro. Just call me Kalina, Miss K,
Miss B, whatever you're comfortable with, you know, But
I feel like with Maestro and Maestro, a lot of people tend to
put conductors on a pedestal. And I don't want to be on a
pedestal because I'm human and I'm just like everybody else,
you know? So I try to really just
(26:52):
eliminate that concept right offthe bat.
I think also just the fact that I am myself, so meaning when I
get on the podium, I don't change whether I'm on or off the
podium. So you still get my really
goofy, like dorky demeanor. Might I let my tattoo show?
I mean, I've often been told several years ago that I should
(27:13):
cover up my tattoos on the podium.
And I was like, why? They're part of me.
The fact that I'm a huge metal head and you don't see many
conductors who listen to anything outside of classical.
I mean, it's funny because one of my good friends the other day
was like in our group chat to myother friend and I, he's like,
yeah, what are you guys listening to?
And my one friend Alex was like,oh, you know, Brahms, Beethoven,
(27:34):
you know, this and that. I was like, yeah, this new
Marilyn Manson record, man, it'slike, I've been amazing.
I've been I've been like playingthis since I got the album.
And you know, they're both looking at me.
Like I said, oh, you probably meant classical music.
My bad. Like, but you know, I feel like
I feel like honestly, just by mebeing me and not trying to fit
into this box or mold or purse like persona that defies how
(28:00):
people view a classical conductor.
I think that's really beautiful,very powerful.
And I feel that with you, you were exactly the same talking at
dinner or at lunch or at a cafe versus when we were working
together on stage and the same now.
And I just, I appreciate that authenticity and that
(28:21):
genuineness because that's also how I try to be.
And I think that is what helps people to connect.
Oh, most definitely. Right, like when you don't have
that added layer of of ego and, and yes, sometimes the ego comes
from insecurity and fear, Sometimes it comes from
arrogance, sometimes it comes from not knowing, sometimes it
(28:43):
comes from conditioning. And like, you know what you're
saying about, you know, people do put conductors on pedestals
and you don't want that. In no way am I trying to isolate
my male listeners or non female listeners, but that is not
something I've ever heard a maleconductor say.
And I feel that does also partlyhave to do with the fact that
(29:04):
you are a woman and it's simply part of how we are as women, the
way we conduct ourselves, no punintended.
Yeah. Yeah, no pun intended.
And I mean, it's not to say that.
Well, let me say it this way first.
As women, we are nurturers. We thrive on connection.
At least I do. I don't want to speak for every
woman, but I thrive on connection.
And I'm such a nurturer and I'm such, I'm someone who's so
(29:26):
supportive and authentic. And it's not to say that, you
know, male conductors, you're just men in general, aren't
those things. But I think in society they have
been taught that you're not supposed to show that side of
yourselves. Right.
Whereas for women, we are taughtsince we're very young that no,
(29:47):
you're supposed to be those things.
But for me, I mean, I grew up kind of in a very different
household just to, you know, saythat it was pretty much you have
to grind, you have to work hard.And so I was very stoic.
So I've only recently learned like, no, it's, it's OK to show
your softer side, your genuine side, your authentic side.
(30:07):
And I think that is definitely what sets me apart.
I just, I have me and I don't try to be anyone other than
that. When we were in South Africa
together, South Africa was my second engagement back for that
season because I had surgery earlier in May.
So I had a 15 centimeter fibroidtuber, which for your listeners,
if you just want an image, thinkof the size of cantaloupe
(30:29):
basically. And I'm not a large woman.
And so, you know, whenever I laid down, you could actually
see the fibroids protruding through my stomach.
And so I remember getting on thepodium the first day in South
Africa with Johannesburg Film. And I just said, you know, I'm
so grateful to be here with you guys.
I said because I had surgery about 5 months ago.
And it's just such an honor to be standing on this podium
(30:52):
because recovery can be can takea very long time.
And, you know, the fact that during the break, so many women
or even some men were just like,yeah, what, what surgery did you
have? Are you OK?
You know what, what can we do for you?
I mean, I think that opened up adialogue because most people
won't be that open with strangers.
Wow. Well, first of all, you, you
(31:13):
brought it up yourself. I was going to, I was going to
ask you directly about it, but thank you for bringing us there.
Can you tell us a little bit more?
That was the other thing I wanted to talk about.
Can you tell us a bit more aboutthe fibroid tumor and what
happened and why it came to the point where it it got so large?
Yeah, most definitely. So firstly, fibroid tumors
(31:34):
predominantly effects black women, but it can affect all
women. They don't really know what
causes them to form or grow. You know, they don't know if
it's, it's stress related emotions.
There's just so many factors andit's for me, it's just weird
that there still isn't a lot of knowledge around the fibroid
tumor. But basically it was July of
2023. I remember I was going to my
(31:55):
OBGYN and you know, she kind of actually what happened was I was
laying down and I saw this lump and I was like, that doesn't
look right. Like I don't remember that lump
being there. So I went to my OBGYN and I
said, listen, I have a lump and I don't remember this being
here. And so sure enough, she examined
me. We did an ultrasound and at the
time when it was found, it was only 12 centimeters.
(32:17):
So that's 6 inches. Only that sounds really big
still. I don't know.
It was, I mean, 12 centimeters is about the size of a small
watermelon, if you can think of a small watermelon, because
watermelons are large. But what was interesting was I
was kind of like, OK, well, I already know that I don't want
this in my body. It was affecting me in ways that
I hadn't realized was the tumor.So by that meaning, I used to
(32:41):
wake up in the middle of the night having back pain and I
just kind of thought, OK, maybe I'm just sleeping funny and
that's why my back hurts. So I would wake up, walk around
for about a minute or two just to stretch the back out and then
I would go back to sleep. Well, no, it, it was the weight
of the tumor that was causing the back issues.
My gosh. And so speaking with my OBGYN,
(33:02):
you know, she came up with some different protocols, none of
which I agreed with, one of which was, okay, let's let's put
you on this medication for womenthat have heavy bleeding.
Well, the thing about me was I never had heavy bleeding.
I never had heavy periods. So a lot of this, the standard
fibroid symptoms, I didn't have any of those.
And so because I didn't have anyof those, my doctor was kind of
(33:23):
like, yeah, let's just watch andwait.
And I said watch and wait for what?
This thing is 12 centimeters. I don't want this in my body.
And so she was very against doing anything with the fibroid.
And so I said, OK, we will watchand wait.
January comes around and I remember just kind of being
like, you know, that lump looks a little bit bigger, like I
(33:43):
don't. So I, I, I go back to my OB,
sure enough, it had gone from 12centimeters to 15 centimeters.
So it grew in about 3 months. And still her response was,
well, yeah, let's just watch andwait because you're not having
any of the symptoms. I said, listen, I'm not sleeping
during the night. I mean, I would actually wake up
(34:04):
four to five times a night because I had to go to the
bathroom. And it's because of my fibroid
had pushed my bladder to be up behind my belly button.
Oh. My.
Gosh, so it had pushed my organsup.
And so, you know, I pretty much couldn't sit down for longer
than 45 minutes because then I would start to have back pain.
And given how much I was traveling, you can imagine how
(34:24):
that was a nightmare. I was so tired all the time
because since fibroids feed on blood, you know, your body is
working overtime, so you're often fatigued.
I was having really random sugarcravings because sugar feeds
fibroids. I was also stressed out because,
you know, every day I'd wake up and I think there's something
foreign inside of my body that no one wants to do anything with
(34:47):
because no one is listening to me.
So I had to advocate basically, I, I searched around and it took
me about six months before I wasable to find a Doctor Who
actually listened to me. But I mean, it was, it was a
nightmare. I mean, you know, I feel like
for most black women or just women of color, when we go into
medical offices, we are not seenand we are not hurt because for
(35:09):
someone to tell me, oh, you're not having the typical symptoms,
so we'll just won't do anything.Yeah.
But this is affecting my life. It's affecting my mental health.
It's affecting my emotional well-being.
And I feel like people don't realize how much physical pain
affects us mentally and our mental health.
And like I, I can't even imagine, like if you're waking
(35:32):
up so many times through the night, you're not sleeping
properly without proper sleep, you're going to be tired, you're
going to be irritable, you're going to be like stressed out.
And then this like constant, notonly physical but emotional
weight on your body. I'm so sorry you had to deal
with that. I'm not going to say it's OK
because it, the treatment that Ireceived was obviously not OK.
(35:54):
But I mean, it was OK just from the standpoint of, you know, I
hear you and I see you. And the thing about it also was
that because my fiber was so large, I pretty much had the
uterus, or my uterus had grown to the size of someone who was
six months pregnant. So I looked like I was like,
like I was pregnant. So none of my pants fit anymore.
(36:17):
You know, like, wearing my concert black was difficult
because of just how big my bellywas.
But again, I wasn't having the typical symptoms.
And so I didn't let a lot of people know about what was going
on with my health because that'sanother thing about this
profession that I have been slowly trying to change, which
is I'm just very transparent about the good and the bad of
(36:39):
being a classroom musician, of just being a conductor.
And you know, I, I was told a long time ago, oh, you should
never let anyone know that you're sick or you should never,
you know, let on that you're notfeeling well or that you're
having XYZ going that's going onwith you.
Yeah, because for fear of being like, blacklisted, like, oh,
that they're not a reliable person, we won't call them.
(37:00):
Right. As opposed to maybe they're
human and you know, something isgoing on and we should honor and
respect that. So I didn't, I didn't let anyone
know, but my surgery was May 16th, 2024.
And basically the two days before I just emailed a bunch of
close friends and colleagues andI just said let that this is
what's going on with me. This is what I've been dealing
(37:21):
with. I have surgery On this date and
I would just really appreciate if you guys would think of me.
Wow. You know, but it was really
difficult and, and I mean the, the recovery typically is about
6 to 8 weeks. So I took off 7 weeks from
conducting. I actually had to withdraw from
an engagement, which was really difficult for me because of what
you said. You don't want to be
blacklisted, You don't want to make it appear like you're not
(37:44):
professional. But on the other hand, your
health comes first. Without that, you can't do
anything else. Exactly, But I think what's what
I had loved about my story with this fibroid is, you know,
because I did put it on Facebookand I, I had pictures of my
fibroid, you know, where you could see it protruding.
And just the amount of women whowere messaging me privately or
(38:08):
sending me text messages to be like, wow, these are symptoms
that I've been having for years.Or, you know, I've actually been
feeling various lumps in my stomach.
I never thought that it would befibroids or, you know, to have
people who didn't know what fibroids were to be like, wow, I
didn't, I didn't know that theseaffected women.
Thank you for sharing this information.
(38:29):
It's it's why I said I think it's so important to be
transparent and just not be afraid to be human and let
people know what's going on in your life because you never know
who it could help. 100%, I couldnot agree more, really.
I'm going to keep saying thank you for being so transparent and
so honest and so open because asI said, like we need this
(38:51):
awareness and this attention. And like, again, the fact that
you had to say so many times, I'm not OK, and somebody says,
well, your symptoms are not there.
It's like it's, it's, it's the same thing when somebody says I
don't feel well mentally, like my mental health is not good.
And they're like, well, you know, you look fine, you're
(39:12):
walking fine, you're talking fine, you're eating fine, you're
doing everything fine. I don't see anything wrong.
It's the same kind of reaction, but with yours, you had a
physical thing protruding out ofyour stomach and they still
didn't take you seriously. It was very disheartening and
very disappointing. And it was especially because
this was a doctor, an OB that I had been going to since I had
(39:34):
moved to Memphis. And so, you know, for me, it was
kind of the very immediate, the trust between me and that doctor
had been broken. I mean, she was also, like I
said, trying to put me on medication that I should not
have been taking. I mean, I never took it because
I always do research before putting anything into my body.
But it was one of those things where it was just like, OK, this
(39:55):
is what we give people for this.Yeah.
But I don't have any of those symptoms of people that take
this. Yeah.
But this is what we give people for this.
You're not hearing me. And you know, my my biggest
thing too is I don't have children yet, but I would love
children. And I told this also to this OB
and kind of straight off the bat, she just kind of made it
seem. And so yeah, children won't be
possible with the fibroid this large.
(40:16):
And it was like, they're, they're what it's like.
OK, well then. But then remove it.
Exactly. Yeah.
And I mean, what's, what's interesting is, is also talking
with other women who have fibroids, because I'm in a
fibroid group on, on Facebook. Often the first course of action
is a hysterectomy. And it's, you know, you could
have a fibroid that's 4cm. So 2 inches.
(40:36):
Yeah. Let's do a hysterectomy.
No, there's, there's got to be other options.
No, let's, let's do a hysterectomy.
So that's, that's another thing.It's like doctors are very quick
to, to recommend one treatment plan as opposed to really having
the conversation and examining all of the possibilities.
So like I said, I'm, I'm really glad that I advocated for my
health and that I really found aDoctor Who listened to me.
(40:58):
And, you know, I believe now I'm, I'm back to doing
everything that I have been doing.
I still refuse to lift my suitcase.
I still, I'm nervous about that still.
Sure, with with good reason. Yeah.
But other than that, it's like I've, I've started working out
again, you know, I'm weightlifting, I'm weight
training, I'm slowly getting back into Pilates.
I'm doing some core work. So, you know, it's like this was
(41:19):
the best. Having the surgery was the best
thing that I could have done formyself.
And so, like I said, I'm just soglad that I advocated for myself
and that I didn't settle. That you trusted yourself, that
you listened to your body, you listens to what you needed for
yourself. And what an inspiring story and
also an inspiring lesson for others that you know when
(41:40):
somebody tells you, oh, it has to be this and that doesn't feel
right for you. Trust your gut, trust your
instincts, and keep searching. Keep asking, keep fighting for
what you know is right for yourself.
No, exactly, because only you will fight for you, no one else
will. Oh gosh, 100%.
I could not agree more. Well, thank you so much for
(42:03):
being here with us today. Thank you for this conversation.
I just flew by. Thank you for your honesty, your
transparency, your courage. It's so important, I think, not
only in our industry, but in theworld in general, to be brave
and vulnerable and open because there is healing in connection
(42:23):
in community. And so to be able to maybe be
the first person that talked about it in your community might
help, you know, hundreds of other people that are going
through something similar. And so, you know, whether you're
the cycle breaker or you're, youknow, a leader in something or
(42:44):
you're someone who gets to be LED, it's so powerful and we we
need this. So thank you so much.
Thank you for having me. Thank you.
Thank you all so much for listening.
I am truly grateful for the support.
(43:04):
Please share this episode in this podcast because the more
awareness we bring to mental health, the sooner we can break
the stigmas around these topics and the faster we can help make
our world a healthier place. Don't forget to subscribe
wherever you get your podcasts and see you next week for
another episode of The ConsciousArtist.
Hello and welcome back to another episode of The Conscious
Artist, a safe space for conversations around mental
health awareness for musicians, artists, and all human beings.
I am your host, Pallavi Mahidera, and I'm thrilled that
you are joining us today. I love the community we have
developed together through this show, and I'm committed to
continuing to give a platform for voices and stories to be
(00:26):
shared. When we allow others and
ourselves to feel seen and heard, we create much needed
change in this industry and in this world.
So thank you for supporting thiscommunity.
Don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts
and let's get started. Today's guest is someone I've
(00:52):
had the pleasure of not only meeting but also working with on
stage. Being an Afro Latina conductor,
she's breaking the boundaries and paving the way for many
young aspiring artists, and for that alone, I wanted to chat
with her. But her story goes beyond those
challenges, and I'm grateful sheis willing to share her story
with us. Please join me in welcoming
conductor Kalina Bovel to the conscious artist.
(01:14):
Kalina, thank you so much for joining us today.
Oh, thank you so much for havingme.
I mean, it's so great to hear your voice again.
Same. It was so lovely getting to meet
you and work with you in South Africa last season.
And for our listeners, a speciallittle fun fact.
We share the same manager, so that feels like an added level
of camaraderie here. Yeah, it was.
(01:34):
It was basically like family members coming together.
I loved it. I wanted to both ask you and
give you the space to Share yourstory today, because in my
opinion, it's one that needs attention and awareness on so
many levels. So if you don't mind, could you
tell us a little bit how your journey began?
So I'm originally from Los Angeles, CA Currently I'm living
(01:55):
in Memphis, TN, but I am the daughter of immigrant parents.
So both of my parents or really my entire family is from Panama,
Panama, but I was born in the United States and so my parents
emigrated to the United States, I believe in the early 80s.
And so I'm a first generation born.
And you know, for immigrant children, it's usually about
(02:17):
academics. You're going to be a doctor,
you're going to be a teacher. However, when I was nine years
old, I just kind of gravitated towards music.
And basically when I was in elementary school, the choir
teacher came around to every single classroom and basically
gave everyone an aptitude test. She would have us sing different
pictures, tap different rhythms.And that was the first day that
I discovered that I could actually do music.
(02:38):
And I remember going home and going to my mom and being like,
mommy, I can sing. And my mom was like, you, you
can sing. And I was like, I know, right?
And I mean, what's what's funny about that story is that before
that day, I had never had any curiosity about music.
I mean, I would never sing alongto the songs on the radio.
I'd never struck a keyboard or anything.
(03:00):
But just all of a sudden, I knewthat music was what I wanted to
do for the rest of my life. And so my friends and I started
the singing group in elementary school.
We would write our own songs. But then it was when I got to
middle school and I was accidentally placed in the
beginning orchestra class or beginning strings class.
It's when I realized, OK, I lovesinging, but I love playing the
violin. And the one thing I did not
(03:21):
realize about playing the violinis the difficulties that are
going to come with being someonewho's very behind.
And so this is all to say, I started playing violin when I
was 11 years old, but I was seven years self-taught, so I
didn't have my first private lesson until I was 18.
And, you know, with my parents being from another country, no
one told them about classical music education, which was, you
(03:43):
know, if you have a student or you have a kid who's seriously
about music, you might want to look into private lessons or you
might want to look into getting them a quality instrument.
No, my parents kind of thought, OK, she's she's getting what
she's getting in high school. OK, that's great.
And oh, she's using the school instrument.
OK, that's fine. And their idea of a better
instrument was, you know, my very first violin was a $200
(04:06):
instrument from the Fingerhut catalog.
And if any of your listeners know about, you know, any
instrument from the Fingerhut catalog, it basically was
firewood. That's what it was good for.
But for me, it was like, oh, this is my instrument.
I loved that instrument. And I had decided that I wanted
to pursue music as a violinist, but I had a physical body that
(04:26):
was prone to injuries. I have what's called scapula
dyskinesis, which is basically it's a mobility issue, so my
shoulders don't move along my rib cage properly.
And so I've been rehabbing that,and it's actually getting so
much better. But because of those issues,
when I was in my adolescence, itmade playing violin really
difficult. I mean, I was always suffering
from tendonitis, whether was it my shoulders, my forearms, I
(04:47):
mean, name it. But I knew that I loved teaching
and I knew that I loved playing the violin.
So I thought, why don't I just merge the 2?
When I got to university, I was a music education major, and we
all had to take a year of instrumental conducting.
And, you know, after four weeks of how do I move my hands, how
to read a score, I remember getting on the box and just kind
of giving that first downbeat. And I was just like, I have no
idea what this is, but I just know that I have to pursue this.
(05:11):
Like, conducting lit a fire in me that I had never felt before.
And it was that day that I decided that I, yeah, I'm going
to pursue conducting. And of course, I went home to my
parents. And I was like, parents, I'm
going to be a conductor. And they were like, great,
what's that? So I worked very hard when I was
still living in California. And then eventually I went
through conducting grad school auditions and eventually got
(05:33):
into the Heart school. And I have two degrees from
heart. I have a masters in music, and
then I have a graduate professional diploma.
And then from there, I was working at a boarding school,
which, yes, is exactly like Hogwarts, except there's no
magic. And then from there, I was just
kind of trying to pave the career.
I was taking auditions, I was covering, I was watching as many
orchid shows as I could. And then in 2019, I took the
(05:56):
audition with the Memphis Symphony and I won my job.
And so I've been living in Memphis, TN ever since.
What a beautiful story and like such a self-taught resilience
championing for yourself story. I love it.
Thank you so much for for sharing that.
And also I didn't realize that we have also like being a being
daughters of immigrant parents in common.
(06:18):
My parents also came to the states in the early 80s and so
that's also, you know, somethingwe share.
Yeah, which is very cool. So it's so interesting because
speaking about being children ofimmigrant parents, especially
who are not involved in the arts, don't know anything about
the arts or like Western classical music, it's really
(06:40):
hard to know what to do for yourchild when they show interest.
And my story was a little different.
I showed interest by myself whenI was 2 1/2 or three.
I used to watch Mr. Rogers Neighborhood and apparently I
like told them one day I pointedto the TV and said I want to
play that. And it was a piano.
And I am very lucky that sort ofcontrary to your story, my
(07:01):
parents took me to a local musicschool, which was a Suzuki music
school in Chicago. And then I had really good
teachers that sort of guided them through the years what my
next steps should be. And so I was able to study with
the best teachers and go to the best schools and have the best
musical education. But my parents didn't know
(07:22):
anything. And it's just simply luck of the
draw. Somebody hears you at the right
time, you know, the right kind of teacher.
And they say, OK, I want to takeyou as a student or let me
recommend you to this person. And it's just, it's so much luck
in that way when you're not borninto an artistic family.
Thank you for sharing your storywith me, because that's
absolutely beautiful. And what's interesting is that
(07:44):
when I was in high school, Monarch was my teacher, Mr.
Monarch. But we all called him Monarch.
You know, Monarch saw how serious I was about violin and
just about music, you know, because all I ever wanted to do
was practice. And so he gave me this list of
private teachers. It must have been an 8 1/2 by 11
sheet of paper that had maybe 20different names on it.
I called every single person. No one ever called me back.
(08:06):
And you know, I remember it. It would be like, hi, my name
is, I'm looking for private lesson teacher for violin.
You know, I'm this, I'm this age.
I'm, you know, I go to this school seriously.
I called 20 people. No one ever called me back,
which I always thought was interesting.
Another thing that was interesting was the person who
did be eventually become my veryfirst teacher was the person who
(08:27):
started me when I was in 6th grade.
And while Taylor was an amazing person, he was not the best
teacher for me. But the reason I bring him up is
because Taylor would always say,oh you know, you should study
with Bill Fitzpatrick. Bill Fitzpatrick would change
your playing. And so when I went to college,
you know, I was actually hangingout with a guy named David
(08:48):
Fitzpatrick. And I never put the two and two
together, but Bill was Davidde dad.
And eventually someone had introduced me to Bill.
And, you know, I remember the first time I met Bill, and Bill
was just kind of like, you know,I feel like I've known you for
most of my life. And I said, yeah, I feel like
I've known you for most of my life.
Well, it's because Bill and I both had Taylor in common, but
Taylor would always talk to Billabout me.
(09:10):
And he would and he would alwaystalk to me about Bill, but he
never once introduced us to eachother.
And I always think about that, you know, the fact that Taylor
could have just given me Bill's phone number, but he never did.
And so I sometimes think about, you know, just the fact that
your path is laid out for you within the universe.
At least that's what I strongly believe.
(09:32):
And so I believe that I was not supposed to meet Bill until I
was in college for whatever reason.
But yeah, there, I mean, there'sso many things that I think
about. What if I had had a private
teacher when I was much younger?What if my parents did know
about classical music education and the various resources?
But also, people don't tell you that in order to be a classical
musician, you do have to have the financial need, you know,
(09:54):
because private lessons are expensive and like, even going
to, you know, music schools or conservatories.
And I mean, like after school programs, those are also an
added cost. And with my parents being 2
working people, it really came down to what is financially
possible and what is financiallyimportant.
So usually a lot of our extracurriculars, there wasn't
(10:17):
money for it within the budget. Thank you so much for sharing
all of this with us. Honestly, what I want to say is,
well, it doesn't really matter what happened then because look
at you now. Yeah, you know, you made it and
you're doing what? Yes, Your path has changed.
You wanted to do violin and thenyou met conducting, and then you
wanted to be a conductor, and you are.
But you have carved that path. And I think that I was very
(10:40):
fortunate to have the support for my parents, both, you know,
with my choices in going into music and being an artist and
also financial support. And I think that I have had a
lot of luck in my life that way.I agree with you that I think
our paths are kind of laid out for us, but we also have to take
(11:02):
the choices that are laid out infront of us.
We have to take responsibility for those choices.
Most definitely, yeah. Because the choices you make
dictate the life that you lead. Right.
And like, I feel very, very strongly that part of my path
and purpose in life was to be a pianist, A musician, a
performing artist and sharing music in the world with with
(11:24):
people, being able to share myself through music with
people. But if I had not studied, if I
had not worked hard and if I hadnot had the opportunities that I
had, I would not be where I am. And so I, I think it is a
combination of both what's sort of like predestined for you and
what you make yours. And yeah, maybe we live in the
(11:44):
matrix and everything is, you know, predetermined.
Or maybe we have free choice and, and, you know, free will.
We'll never really know. But I love that you have shared
your story this way because it'sjust a reminder that we do have
the power to take choices into our hands and to make our lives
what we want them to be. And I think that's so important.
(12:07):
Yeah, most definitely, you know,and, and that's that's why I
say, as I said earlier, the choices we make dictate the
lives that we lead. You know, and it's as much as I
thought that I was going to be aviolinist that was in the cars
for me. But I'm so thankful that I was
able to have the space in college to explore conducting
and that there was that support behind me.
(12:30):
And, you know, I think my parents are starting to
understand a little bit more as to what I do as a conductor.
I mean, before they were just kind of like, I don't really
know how my daughter gravitated towards classical music, but it
makes her happy. And so they really were just
like, if it makes her happy, then we're happy.
But what's really cool is the first time my parents saw me
conduct, I believe it was 2010, I was in college and so I had my
(12:51):
first conducting recital. It's a really big program too.
It was Brahms Tragic Overture, Latombo de Kuporan by Rebel and
then Beethoven 5. I had no idea what I was doing.
And then Fast forward, believe it was 12 years later, I flew my
parents up to Oakland because I was guest conducting with the
Oakland Symphony. And, you know, so for them to
see me in person 12 years later,it was really huge for them.
(13:15):
But really, it was for them to see me in my element, not via
YouTube, not via a computer screen or a television screen.
You know, like, it was just, it was really different.
And I remember asking both of them, I said, you know, what was
that like for you? And my dad was like, that was
exhilarating. My mom was just like, I was so
mesmerized. I couldn't take my eyes off of
(13:37):
you. I truly believe that as a
violinist, I wouldn't have had the same effect, so to speak,
because violin for me always hadso much baggage since I was so
behind. Whereas with conducting, I
started brand new. And so conducting was just kind
of like, let's just see what happens.
And that's what I've been doing ever since.
What a beautiful story. I mean, I'm sure of course it
(13:57):
comes with its challenges. I mean, let's you know, talk
about the elephant to the room, the fact that we are both
minorities here, women of color in an artistic field.
I would love to know if you feelcomfortable sharing, what are
some of the challenges you facedas and after Latina conductor,
Being a woman, being a woman of color, you know, especially in
(14:20):
the conducting world. It's now finally there are more
and more women on stage in frontof orchestras.
We're still so behind there. What was, what's your experience
been sort of growing up with this and working through it?
As I started conducting much later in life, I believe I was
around 2627 when I started, so Ihad the Rose colored glasses.
(14:42):
But as I started studying more and learning more, it was a lot
of similarities and parallels towhat I was facing when I was a
violinist. And so just to tell you very
quick stories of violinist whichwill then relate to conducting.
I remember being in 6th grade and there was a colleague of
mine who said, yeah, you know, you're a pretty good violin
player. I was like, yeah, thank you.
(15:03):
But then he also went on to say,he's like, but you'll never be
good enough because you're not Asian.
And I remember being 12 years old and thinking, wow, this is
going to be the rest of my life.And so as it relates to
conducting the, the biggest elephant in the room is the fact
that I am a woman. And I used to say, I feel like
within society I am a black person and then I'm a woman.
(15:25):
War is in conducting. I am a woman and then I am a
black person. Interesting.
Right. Because I remember actually a
colleague in in college saying he's like, yeah, you know,
you're a really good conductor, but he's like, I don't know,
there's something about, you know, playing under a woman.
It just, it just bothers me. I know people don't mean it
badly when they say that, but it's very hurtful.
(15:45):
No, it is. And so you kind of have to ask
yourself, well, how am I supposed to take that, right.
So I actually took the the different route and I said, you
know, let's unpack this. What is so difficult for you
about playing under a woman? You know, and so we had that
conversation. But but that's the thing.
I mean, there is still this mentality of women don't belong
on the podium or women are not good enough compared to male
(16:07):
conductors. When at the end of the day I
would hope someone just looks atme and says oh there's a
conductor as opposed to oh there's a female conductor.
Oh, for sure, absolutely. Sorry, I'm really curious.
I know it's a slight side note. How was that conversation?
What was sort of the result of of unpacking that?
Well, you know, what was interesting, and I'm interesting
in a great way was that he said this comment around like 20
(16:28):
other people. And so the 20, the 19 other
people were just like, whoa, man, that's not cool.
But as we were all having this conversation, you know, it was
coming from the perspective of this colleague was not used to
seeing women on the podium. And so because it was different,
different is often as often fearful for people because
(16:48):
people don't like change, right,Right.
And so this was a change for himwhich created a form of anxiety
and he didn't know what to do with that.
It's really beautifully put honestly, because first of all
it creates empathy and compassion for the other, even
if the other is hurting you. It leaves space for for
(17:11):
compassion and empathy. But also, it's just a reminder
that every like the way people respond and react and and act
towards others is very much a result of their reality, their
inner. Life what?
They have grown up with what they experience, what they know,
what they don't know. It's so personal and subjective.
(17:34):
No, you're absolutely right. You know, and, and I, and often
as I have gotten a little bit more experienced in this
profession, I often have to remind myself that it's really
not about me, It's about the other person.
I mean, if someone has an issue with something that I do or
don't do, that's not about me. That's about your own issues
that you're dealing with, that you have that you still need to
(17:56):
deal with. Well, thank you for sharing
that. And what about now, post COVID
times, post George Floyd times, There's a lot more movement,
especially in America, to be more mindful of, featuring more
diverse programs, sort of focusing on people of color.
(18:17):
I have mixed feelings about thisalways because on one hand I
would always, and I, I mean always prefer to be hired for
something based on merit. It should have nothing to do
with where I come from, what color is my skin, what gender I
am like, what my upbringing is, what my religion is, what my
(18:39):
political views are like. It should have nothing to do
with anything except can she play or not?
Does she speak to people or not?Does she connect with people or
not? Does this person?
Part of me always feels very frustrated that there is this
distinction at all. And on the other hand, it also
feels like, well, finally, it's part of conversation.
I mean, in my personal experience, I was, you know, the
(19:02):
first fully Indian female to attend and graduate Curtis, the
Rena Sofia School in Madrid, Hans Eisler in Berlin to win a
major prize in Geneva competition.
I was the 1st, and I never thought about it at that time.
I mean, I knew I was the only Indian person at school for the
first couple years. And then actually, another
Indian person came, conductor Vinay Parameswaran, who was also
on my podcast. And suddenly, like the Indian
(19:23):
population in the school doubledand it was like such a big deal.
Then, you know, I moved to Spainand then back to being the only
one. And then I moved to Berlin and
back to being the only one. And it was just something I just
accepted. And now I'm so happy to see so
many young Indian or or half Indian kids studying music and
(19:45):
going to some of these great schools to study, to pursue
classical music because that, you know, there's a whole other
conversation. But that also wasn't part of my
culture, like you said, with, you know, being kids of as
immigrant parents. It's like doctor, lawyer,
engineer for us. Exactly.
Yeah. I mean, for us as a doctor
teacher, right, was because my mom was in education for most of
(20:07):
my life, so there weren't reallymany options.
But you know, the question I have for you though, is, is I
mean, similarly as you asked me,which I'll answer in a second,
but did you see a shift in the repertoire that you were asked
to play after the aftermath of George Floyd?
I have seen a shift in yes, I yes.
(20:28):
The short answer is yes. And again, part of me feels
frustrated because diversity forthe sake of diversity is
pointless. You need to start at the base,
at the roots with education, with opportunities.
In order to give people opportunities, they need
education. Without education you can't get
(20:48):
to opportunities. Without opportunities, you can't
have merit based results. And then just putting someone,
and I say again, I say this as abrown female, putting someone of
color in a top position for something just to fill a quota
is also not fair to anyone. And so part of me feels a little
(21:10):
bit frustrated that suddenly there I see so many programs
where like, there's no longer Beethoven, there's no longer
Brahms, there's no longer Chopin, there's no longer
Rachmaninoff. Yeah, there's a reason that
these composers have lasted and grown their importance over
time. What's interesting is to find
the connections and the stories that we can create with the past
(21:32):
and the present. Oh, I completely agree with you,
you know, and, and so that's, that's what's interesting
because so to answer your question, after George Floyd, it
kind of became the year of, of just black conductors.
You know, everybody wanted a black conductor.
And if you were black and female, it's like, oh, everyone
wanted you double of triple. And so the amount of work that I
(21:52):
received after George Floyd's death was astounding.
And one, I was so grateful because I was able to meet
different orchestras and just learn a variety of music.
But then on the other hand, I felt this pressure because all
of a sudden I was on display, ifthat makes sense, you know,
because it felt as though, OK, I'm walking into this room,
(22:13):
people don't know me. And because you know everyone of
the the black conductor is all the rage right now, I have to
show up and show out, which basically means that I have to
be 3 times as good to prove myself to my white male
counterparts. That's exactly it.
You have to prove yourself. It's like you always feel as
though you need to prove yourself.
I mean, I forget the saying, butI think it's you have to be
(22:35):
twice as good to get half as much.
And my, my friends and I have talked about this, my friends of
color and I, you know, where we have all felt this pressure of
it's all eyes on us because we're either the only black
person in the room or one of a handful of black musicians or
musicians of color in that ensemble.
And so for me as a conductor, before, when I would walk into
(22:57):
the room, no one would know who I was.
And so I would receive little mini microaggressions.
But then once I was introduced as the conductor, all of a
sudden it was, oh, oh, that's a maestro or that's a maestro, you
know, And then it was, it was this complete switch of, Oh,
yes, now you respect me. But before, when you didn't know
who I was, you didn't give me the time of day.
(23:18):
So it's, it's been really interesting.
I have also noticed as you discussed the shift in
repertoire, typically I've been asked to a lot of Latin American
programs since I am a Latina andI have the accent, but I don't
speak Spanish. But you know, honestly, I love
doing any type of music and any type of program.
But it's kind of like you said, I feel as though there needs to
(23:38):
be an authenticity and the way that we are approaching this
music because I've seen so many orchestras, you know, program
the work by black composer and I'll just name a few.
It's always, you see, a Jesse Montgomery, a Hail Stork, a
George Walker, a Quinn Mason. It's the, you know, we need a
black person. Let's check this box or a
Florence Price, you know. But I feel like there is a
(23:59):
better way to marry the two. And as I often say with my
programming, we need to expose people to music they didn't know
they needed to hear, but we alsoneed to expose them to the past
so that we can present them withthe future.
That's really beautifully put. And you know, and this is the
thing that like, I played GeorgeWalker's Second Piano Sonata in
(24:20):
my high school graduation concert.
That was in 2000 and four, 2005.Like that was long before
anybody was pretending to care about, you know, You know what I
mean? No, exactly.
And like my my professor at thattime from high school, Julian
Martin, he's the one who introduced me to this piece.
And George Walker went to Curtislong before me.
(24:40):
And when I played his Sonata, I wrote him a letter.
And I let him know that that I was playing it and that I really
loved it and that I got into Curtis and I was going to go
there. And I was so excited that he had
been there as well. And he wrote me back this like,
beautiful handwritten letter. And I think that's a great
Sonata. And I never once thought of him
as a black composer. He was just a composer.
(25:04):
Exactly, Yeah. Why do we need to sort of make
that separation between oh, it needs to, oh, we need to have a
composer of color, we need to have a composer of this gender.
Why not, hey, this is a really great composer.
This piece is awesome. Let's put it on the program.
Why do we need to? Quantify it.
No exactly. It's it's often like when Marin
(25:24):
Alsop is is interviewed and someof her questions will always be
yeah. So what, what's it like to be a
a female conductor? And her response has sometimes
in, well, what's it like to put on pants?
I mean, I don't that's kind of true.
You know, it's like you never ask a male conductor.
Yeah. What's it like to be a male
conductor? What's it like to go to the gym?
(25:47):
Like, you know what I mean? We're just, we're conductors,
regardless of our gender. How do you like personally sort
of fight against that kind of stereotyping?
What are like, how are you able to sort of move through that in
your day-to-day life, whether it's, you know, in your
day-to-day, everyday life or your day-to-day as a conductor?
(26:09):
How are you sort of able to helpbring more awareness and
education to the fact that we'rejust simply artists?
We're not female artists, We're not artists of color.
We're artists, period. I think that's a really great
question. You know, the biggest thing for
me is whenever I walk into a room, you know, just depending
on the level. So if it's, if it's like
(26:30):
students, if it's college students, I always say, you
know, this is my name. Please don't call me Maestro and
Maestro. Just call me Kalina, Miss K,
Miss B, whatever you're comfortable with, you know, But
I feel like with Maestro and Maestro, a lot of people tend to
put conductors on a pedestal. And I don't want to be on a
pedestal because I'm human and I'm just like everybody else,
you know? So I try to really just
(26:52):
eliminate that concept right offthe bat.
I think also just the fact that I am myself, so meaning when I
get on the podium, I don't change whether I'm on or off the
podium. So you still get my really
goofy, like dorky demeanor. Might I let my tattoo show?
I mean, I've often been told several years ago that I should
(27:13):
cover up my tattoos on the podium.
And I was like, why? They're part of me.
The fact that I'm a huge metal head and you don't see many
conductors who listen to anything outside of classical.
I mean, it's funny because one of my good friends the other day
was like in our group chat to myother friend and I, he's like,
yeah, what are you guys listening to?
And my one friend Alex was like,oh, you know, Brahms, Beethoven,
(27:34):
you know, this and that. I was like, yeah, this new
Marilyn Manson record, man, it'slike, I've been amazing.
I've been I've been like playingthis since I got the album.
And you know, they're both looking at me.
Like I said, oh, you probably meant classical music.
My bad. Like, but you know, I feel like
I feel like honestly, just by mebeing me and not trying to fit
into this box or mold or purse like persona that defies how
(28:00):
people view a classical conductor.
I think that's really beautiful,very powerful.
And I feel that with you, you were exactly the same talking at
dinner or at lunch or at a cafe versus when we were working
together on stage and the same now.
And I just, I appreciate that authenticity and that
(28:21):
genuineness because that's also how I try to be.
And I think that is what helps people to connect.
Oh, most definitely. Right, like when you don't have
that added layer of of ego and, and yes, sometimes the ego comes
from insecurity and fear, Sometimes it comes from
arrogance, sometimes it comes from not knowing, sometimes it
(28:43):
comes from conditioning. And like, you know what you're
saying about, you know, people do put conductors on pedestals
and you don't want that. In no way am I trying to isolate
my male listeners or non female listeners, but that is not
something I've ever heard a maleconductor say.
And I feel that does also partlyhave to do with the fact that
(29:04):
you are a woman and it's simply part of how we are as women, the
way we conduct ourselves, no punintended.
Yeah. Yeah, no pun intended.
And I mean, it's not to say that.
Well, let me say it this way first.
As women, we are nurturers. We thrive on connection.
At least I do. I don't want to speak for every
woman, but I thrive on connection.
And I'm such a nurturer and I'm such, I'm someone who's so
(29:26):
supportive and authentic. And it's not to say that, you
know, male conductors, you're just men in general, aren't
those things. But I think in society they have
been taught that you're not supposed to show that side of
yourselves. Right.
Whereas for women, we are taughtsince we're very young that no,
(29:47):
you're supposed to be those things.
But for me, I mean, I grew up kind of in a very different
household just to, you know, saythat it was pretty much you have
to grind, you have to work hard.And so I was very stoic.
So I've only recently learned like, no, it's, it's OK to show
your softer side, your genuine side, your authentic side.
(30:07):
And I think that is definitely what sets me apart.
I just, I have me and I don't try to be anyone other than
that. When we were in South Africa
together, South Africa was my second engagement back for that
season because I had surgery earlier in May.
So I had a 15 centimeter fibroidtuber, which for your listeners,
if you just want an image, thinkof the size of cantaloupe
(30:29):
basically. And I'm not a large woman.
And so, you know, whenever I laid down, you could actually
see the fibroids protruding through my stomach.
And so I remember getting on thepodium the first day in South
Africa with Johannesburg Film. And I just said, you know, I'm
so grateful to be here with you guys.
I said because I had surgery about 5 months ago.
And it's just such an honor to be standing on this podium
(30:52):
because recovery can be can takea very long time.
And, you know, the fact that during the break, so many women
or even some men were just like,yeah, what, what surgery did you
have? Are you OK?
You know what, what can we do for you?
I mean, I think that opened up adialogue because most people
won't be that open with strangers.
Wow. Well, first of all, you, you
(31:13):
brought it up yourself. I was going to, I was going to
ask you directly about it, but thank you for bringing us there.
Can you tell us a little bit more?
That was the other thing I wanted to talk about.
Can you tell us a bit more aboutthe fibroid tumor and what
happened and why it came to the point where it it got so large?
Yeah, most definitely. So firstly, fibroid tumors
(31:34):
predominantly effects black women, but it can affect all
women. They don't really know what
causes them to form or grow. You know, they don't know if
it's, it's stress related emotions.
There's just so many factors andit's for me, it's just weird
that there still isn't a lot of knowledge around the fibroid
tumor. But basically it was July of
2023. I remember I was going to my
(31:55):
OBGYN and you know, she kind of actually what happened was I was
laying down and I saw this lump and I was like, that doesn't
look right. Like I don't remember that lump
being there. So I went to my OBGYN and I
said, listen, I have a lump and I don't remember this being
here. And so sure enough, she examined
me. We did an ultrasound and at the
time when it was found, it was only 12 centimeters.
(32:17):
So that's 6 inches. Only that sounds really big
still. I don't know.
It was, I mean, 12 centimeters is about the size of a small
watermelon, if you can think of a small watermelon, because
watermelons are large. But what was interesting was I
was kind of like, OK, well, I already know that I don't want
this in my body. It was affecting me in ways that
I hadn't realized was the tumor.So by that meaning, I used to
(32:41):
wake up in the middle of the night having back pain and I
just kind of thought, OK, maybe I'm just sleeping funny and
that's why my back hurts. So I would wake up, walk around
for about a minute or two just to stretch the back out and then
I would go back to sleep. Well, no, it, it was the weight
of the tumor that was causing the back issues.
My gosh. And so speaking with my OBGYN,
(33:02):
you know, she came up with some different protocols, none of
which I agreed with, one of which was, okay, let's let's put
you on this medication for womenthat have heavy bleeding.
Well, the thing about me was I never had heavy bleeding.
I never had heavy periods. So a lot of this, the standard
fibroid symptoms, I didn't have any of those.
And so because I didn't have anyof those, my doctor was kind of
(33:23):
like, yeah, let's just watch andwait.
And I said watch and wait for what?
This thing is 12 centimeters. I don't want this in my body.
And so she was very against doing anything with the fibroid.
And so I said, OK, we will watchand wait.
January comes around and I remember just kind of being
like, you know, that lump looks a little bit bigger, like I
(33:43):
don't. So I, I, I go back to my OB,
sure enough, it had gone from 12centimeters to 15 centimeters.
So it grew in about 3 months. And still her response was,
well, yeah, let's just watch andwait because you're not having
any of the symptoms. I said, listen, I'm not sleeping
during the night. I mean, I would actually wake up
(34:04):
four to five times a night because I had to go to the
bathroom. And it's because of my fibroid
had pushed my bladder to be up behind my belly button.
Oh. My.
Gosh, so it had pushed my organsup.
And so, you know, I pretty much couldn't sit down for longer
than 45 minutes because then I would start to have back pain.
And given how much I was traveling, you can imagine how
(34:24):
that was a nightmare. I was so tired all the time
because since fibroids feed on blood, you know, your body is
working overtime, so you're often fatigued.
I was having really random sugarcravings because sugar feeds
fibroids. I was also stressed out because,
you know, every day I'd wake up and I think there's something
foreign inside of my body that no one wants to do anything with
(34:47):
because no one is listening to me.
So I had to advocate basically, I, I searched around and it took
me about six months before I wasable to find a Doctor Who
actually listened to me. But I mean, it was, it was a
nightmare. I mean, you know, I feel like
for most black women or just women of color, when we go into
medical offices, we are not seenand we are not hurt because for
(35:09):
someone to tell me, oh, you're not having the typical symptoms,
so we'll just won't do anything.Yeah.
But this is affecting my life. It's affecting my mental health.
It's affecting my emotional well-being.
And I feel like people don't realize how much physical pain
affects us mentally and our mental health.
And like I, I can't even imagine, like if you're waking
(35:32):
up so many times through the night, you're not sleeping
properly without proper sleep, you're going to be tired, you're
going to be irritable, you're going to be like stressed out.
And then this like constant, notonly physical but emotional
weight on your body. I'm so sorry you had to deal
with that. I'm not going to say it's OK
because it, the treatment that Ireceived was obviously not OK.
(35:54):
But I mean, it was OK just from the standpoint of, you know, I
hear you and I see you. And the thing about it also was
that because my fiber was so large, I pretty much had the
uterus, or my uterus had grown to the size of someone who was
six months pregnant. So I looked like I was like,
like I was pregnant. So none of my pants fit anymore.
(36:17):
You know, like, wearing my concert black was difficult
because of just how big my bellywas.
But again, I wasn't having the typical symptoms.
And so I didn't let a lot of people know about what was going
on with my health because that'sanother thing about this
profession that I have been slowly trying to change, which
is I'm just very transparent about the good and the bad of
(36:39):
being a classroom musician, of just being a conductor.
And you know, I, I was told a long time ago, oh, you should
never let anyone know that you're sick or you should never,
you know, let on that you're notfeeling well or that you're
having XYZ going that's going onwith you.
Yeah, because for fear of being like, blacklisted, like, oh,
that they're not a reliable person, we won't call them.
(37:00):
Right. As opposed to maybe they're
human and you know, something isgoing on and we should honor and
respect that. So I didn't, I didn't let anyone
know, but my surgery was May 16th, 2024.
And basically the two days before I just emailed a bunch of
close friends and colleagues andI just said let that this is
what's going on with me. This is what I've been dealing
(37:21):
with. I have surgery On this date and
I would just really appreciate if you guys would think of me.
Wow. You know, but it was really
difficult and, and I mean the, the recovery typically is about
6 to 8 weeks. So I took off 7 weeks from
conducting. I actually had to withdraw from
an engagement, which was really difficult for me because of what
you said. You don't want to be
blacklisted, You don't want to make it appear like you're not
(37:44):
professional. But on the other hand, your
health comes first. Without that, you can't do
anything else. Exactly, But I think what's what
I had loved about my story with this fibroid is, you know,
because I did put it on Facebookand I, I had pictures of my
fibroid, you know, where you could see it protruding.
And just the amount of women whowere messaging me privately or
(38:08):
sending me text messages to be like, wow, these are symptoms
that I've been having for years.Or, you know, I've actually been
feeling various lumps in my stomach.
I never thought that it would befibroids or, you know, to have
people who didn't know what fibroids were to be like, wow, I
didn't, I didn't know that theseaffected women.
Thank you for sharing this information.
(38:29):
It's it's why I said I think it's so important to be
transparent and just not be afraid to be human and let
people know what's going on in your life because you never know
who it could help. 100%, I couldnot agree more, really.
I'm going to keep saying thank you for being so transparent and
so honest and so open because asI said, like we need this
(38:51):
awareness and this attention. And like, again, the fact that
you had to say so many times, I'm not OK, and somebody says,
well, your symptoms are not there.
It's like it's, it's, it's the same thing when somebody says I
don't feel well mentally, like my mental health is not good.
And they're like, well, you know, you look fine, you're
(39:12):
walking fine, you're talking fine, you're eating fine, you're
doing everything fine. I don't see anything wrong.
It's the same kind of reaction, but with yours, you had a
physical thing protruding out ofyour stomach and they still
didn't take you seriously. It was very disheartening and
very disappointing. And it was especially because
this was a doctor, an OB that I had been going to since I had
(39:34):
moved to Memphis. And so, you know, for me, it was
kind of the very immediate, the trust between me and that doctor
had been broken. I mean, she was also, like I
said, trying to put me on medication that I should not
have been taking. I mean, I never took it because
I always do research before putting anything into my body.
But it was one of those things where it was just like, OK, this
(39:55):
is what we give people for this.Yeah.
But I don't have any of those symptoms of people that take
this. Yeah.
But this is what we give people for this.
You're not hearing me. And you know, my my biggest
thing too is I don't have children yet, but I would love
children. And I told this also to this OB
and kind of straight off the bat, she just kind of made it
seem. And so yeah, children won't be
possible with the fibroid this large.
(40:16):
And it was like, they're, they're what it's like.
OK, well then. But then remove it.
Exactly. Yeah.
And I mean, what's, what's interesting is, is also talking
with other women who have fibroids, because I'm in a
fibroid group on, on Facebook. Often the first course of action
is a hysterectomy. And it's, you know, you could
have a fibroid that's 4cm. So 2 inches.
(40:36):
Yeah. Let's do a hysterectomy.
No, there's, there's got to be other options.
No, let's, let's do a hysterectomy.
So that's, that's another thing.It's like doctors are very quick
to, to recommend one treatment plan as opposed to really having
the conversation and examining all of the possibilities.
So like I said, I'm, I'm really glad that I advocated for my
health and that I really found aDoctor Who listened to me.
(40:58):
And, you know, I believe now I'm, I'm back to doing
everything that I have been doing.
I still refuse to lift my suitcase.
I still, I'm nervous about that still.
Sure, with with good reason. Yeah.
But other than that, it's like I've, I've started working out
again, you know, I'm weightlifting, I'm weight
training, I'm slowly getting back into Pilates.
I'm doing some core work. So, you know, it's like this was
(41:19):
the best. Having the surgery was the best
thing that I could have done formyself.
And so, like I said, I'm just soglad that I advocated for myself
and that I didn't settle. That you trusted yourself, that
you listened to your body, you listens to what you needed for
yourself. And what an inspiring story and
also an inspiring lesson for others that you know when
(41:40):
somebody tells you, oh, it has to be this and that doesn't feel
right for you. Trust your gut, trust your
instincts, and keep searching. Keep asking, keep fighting for
what you know is right for yourself.
No, exactly, because only you will fight for you, no one else
will. Oh gosh, 100%.
I could not agree more. Well, thank you so much for
(42:03):
being here with us today. Thank you for this conversation.
I just flew by. Thank you for your honesty, your
transparency, your courage. It's so important, I think, not
only in our industry, but in theworld in general, to be brave
and vulnerable and open because there is healing in connection
(42:23):
in community. And so to be able to maybe be
the first person that talked about it in your community might
help, you know, hundreds of other people that are going
through something similar. And so, you know, whether you're
the cycle breaker or you're, youknow, a leader in something or
(42:44):
you're someone who gets to be LED, it's so powerful and we we
need this. So thank you so much.
Thank you for having me. Thank you.
Thank you all so much for listening.
I am truly grateful for the support.
(43:04):
Please share this episode in this podcast because the more
awareness we bring to mental health, the sooner we can break
the stigmas around these topics and the faster we can help make
our world a healthier place. Don't forget to subscribe
wherever you get your podcasts and see you next week for
another episode of The ConsciousArtist.
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