October 13, 2025 • 51 mins
Joining me in this episode is Mike de la Rocha. Mike is a visionary strategist, acclaimed artist, and compelling voice for change. Mike is celebrated as one of the most influential changemakers of our era. He is graciously joining me to discuss his debut book, Sacred Lessons: Teaching My Father How to Love
His new book explores how inherited definitions of manhood profoundly impacted Mike's ability to connect with his father, his family, and ultimately himself. His book delves into the struggle men face in connecting with themselves and others, offering tools for personal growth and ways to build meaningful and authentic relationships.
Some of the topics we discuss are:
· The challenges men face in expressing emotions and the impact this has on their relationships with family, friends, and themselves.
· How patriarchy and toxic masculinity shape the way men are taught to relate to others, focusing on the lack of emotional education.
· The importance of inner child work and how this can lead to healing.
· How men can learn to embody and access their own innate femininity.
Share this episode with a male in your life.
Links:
https://www.instagram.com/mrmikedelarocha/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:07):
Hello, and thanks for listening to the Conscious Diva podcast.
I'm Tatiana, and joining me in this episode is Mike de la
Rocha. Mike is a visionary strategist,
acclaimed artist, and compellingvoice for change.
He is celebrated as one of the most influential change makers
of our time, and he's graciouslyjoining me to discuss his debut
book, Sacred Lessons Teaching MyFather How to Love.
(00:30):
His new book explores how inherited definitions of manhood
profoundly impacted Mike's ability to connect with his
father, his family, and ultimately himself.
He invites readers on a transformative journey of self
discovery, forgiveness, and love.
Some of the topics we discuss are the challenges that men face
in expressing emotions and the impact that has on their
(00:51):
relationships, how patriarchy and toxic masculinity shape the
way men are taught to relate to others, and how men can learn to
embody and access their own innate femininity.
I hope you enjoyed this episode and thank you so much for
listening. Thank you so much for being.
(01:11):
I really enjoyed your book Sacred Lessons.
Have it here. Oh.
You got some. You marked it up too.
Oh yeah, totally, always becausethere's you, you have some
really important lessons obviously in here, hence the
name. So the title of your book is
sacred lessons, teaching my father how to love.
But this is it's not just about him.
(01:32):
It's obviously your journey and sacred lessons, right.
And that's a really beautiful love is a beautiful topic.
So when you were winding this book, where did where did this
all sort of what was the motivation?
Well, I know the motivation was literally my dad propelled me on
this whole healing journey. But I've been sharing that I
(01:53):
actually wrote his story first. I spent the first three years of
losing him, like listening painfully, listening to all
these interviews he did when he was alive and interviewing like
his first roommate in college and different people in his
life. And I was actually writing a
book in his voice, reflecting back on his life, the last five
(02:15):
days he was alive. And, you know, I got an amazing
agent and she went out to try tosell it.
And no one bought that book. And so it was, it was a lot.
It was a it was the catalyst, I think because I feel like my dad
in the spirit world was like orchestrating this whole thing.
He was like, no, mijo, you have to write your story.
(02:37):
You know, like, even though I was writing his voice, these
were like, you know, some thingswere exactly what he said and
some I was interpreting. Right?
Yeah. But the bigger lesson for me was
I was not dealing with the griefof losing my dad and I was
hiding behind his voice. So then once I kind of like, you
know, started going to therapy more often to doing other
(03:00):
things, that's what the book you're holding, that was the
book that was birthed was through that kind of healing
journey of exploring and uncovering.
Like, why is it that I'm a lot more like my father than I
recognize or acknowledge before the writing of the book?
So it's so amazing how in the book writing process, the book
(03:21):
you feel inspired to write well,that we think wants to come
through actually ends up not being not being the one at all.
Kind of a similar situation right now actually.
Exactly. Yeah, so I, it's nice to hear
that. You know, I've heard it from a
few other people, but I, I know that OK, this something else had
(03:41):
to happen, but so, OK, you have so many amazing points.
And the reason I wanted to talk to you is that you're a male and
you've gone on this incredible inner child journey.
And I just felt right away, wow,that's an amazing, really
important lesson to share. And there's where in this time,
as you well know, we've been in it for for centuries, the this
(04:01):
patriarchal, you know, situationglobally.
And you have such a beautiful message.
So I wanted to just begin with inner child work for men.
You know, you mentioned in your book you had read another book,
Us Getting Past You and Me and this concept of the adaptive
child. So how did, when you first
(04:22):
discovered this, how did that resonate with you?
Had you, were you familiar with the concept of inner child work?
I feel like perhaps many men aren't familiar with the with
this phrase and it might sound too feminine.
Like what are you talking about?Yeah, I was turned on to the
concept of like, well, the innerchild work really from my breath
(04:44):
work teacher, Aunt Olivia. So I have to shout her out.
I talked a lot about her in the last chapter, but really just
realizing that a lot of the wounds that I was trying to to
heal were from what happened to me as a young child.
I think that book kind of provided a little bit more
context and then doing the work provided more.
And then just in terms of the larger context of, like you
(05:07):
mentioned, patriarchy, it was a lot of like predominantly like
queer women of color, feminists that were influencing the way
that I thought about myself in this issue.
Bell hooks, Glorian Zaldua, Audrey Lore, like these icons,
right? And that was giving me a
framework. But then in doing the work, I
(05:29):
was like, well, I couldn't find a book like, say, for example,
from a Chicano to a Chicano or like from a male of color
perspective specifically on that.
There's a lot of incredible books obviously out there, but I
was like, well, what's somethingthat I can give to my own son
that was more accessible, wasn'ttoo heady, if you will, and
(05:50):
again, without judgement, but just like something that you
could read. And that was really the impetus
for it. And then realizing that I'm
still that 1213 year old child right now as a 40 year old, you
know, so like that is that will always be me.
I don't want to lose that either, you know.
And so Luis Rodriguez, a dear mentor of mine, always says in
(06:12):
order to truly heal, you have togo straight through the wound.
And you know, the West teaches us to stare away from anything
like that. And but all of our practices,
cultural practice, say you have,that's part of the initiation.
That's the ritual of it. Yeah, yeah.
And you write about your grandfather's story and your
relationship to him and your God.
(06:35):
And so I wondered, and of course, you share about your
relationship with your own son. But I wondered how having all
these males and being a dad of aboy yourself, how has that
impacted you? And obviously you share a lot of
these things and I've written somany questions around all of
this, but yeah, if you wouldn't mind just sharing that.
(06:57):
Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think, you know,
growing up, the two men that hadthe most influence on my life in
terms of how I viewed men and myself were my father and my
grandfather, my well, and my father's father.
I never knew my mom's dad 'causeshe never knew him.
He left when she was really young.
So I only always had one grandfather.
(07:20):
And it was interesting to watch their dynamic.
They had a very complicated relationship and but they were
both suffering in silence. They both wanted to communicate
but didn't necessarily have the language to do so.
And I feel like, you know, my father in reflecting like in a
(07:41):
lot of the reasons why did he pass so young?
You know, you know, he passed at66, which is pretty young.
Yeah, compared to your grandfather who died at 104,
which was amazing. It's a whole nother lifetime.
And I think, you know, there's multiple reasons for it.
But I think at the crux of it was just the difficulty that man
(08:03):
and my dad and me even have beenasking for help because the
societal definition is that men have to tough it out.
It can't be a burden on others, can't be emotionally expressive.
So we hold all of that in and I just feel the, the, you know,
our bodies are breaking down by the weight.
(08:24):
I say a patriarchy, but also theweight of unexpressed emotion
and feeling. And that all to me was like the
driving force for me, 'cause I was like, I, I want to live
longer than 66, God willing. But what are the, some of the
things that I could do to do that And, and how can I help
other men? Because I've been on engaged on
(08:44):
this really beautiful 25 city tour across the country and
meaning men both in rural and urban areas from everywhere from
New York to Wisconsin and Chicago and everywhere in
between. And what I can tell you is I
haven't met a man yet that doesn't want his inner child and
(09:05):
current self to be loved and held.
And whether or not it is me articulating it or creating the
space for us to articulate it together, it's been really
profound to see and it's not talked about.
And so my hope and prayer is that we can normalize these kind
of conversations like you and I are having, but also just
normalizing and redefining strength as being able to, to
(09:28):
ask for help is the most courageous thing that a person
can do, regardless of gender. And so that's been really my
driving force cause looking at my father, my grandfather, and
like, what's the lesson that I'msupposed to learn from that?
And I think it's that. And so with learned behaviour, I
mean, were you saying that when you became a dad and obviously
(09:50):
you, you were a stepmother firstbefore you had your own son.
So how when you became when you were a dad of your daughter is a
is your stepdaughter and then you have your own biological
son. So was there a difference?
Could you? Were you noticing these learned
behaviours, these sort of masculine stories?
Were you noticing them in yourself when you had a son?
(10:12):
Or were you seeing them when youhad your daughter?
When you got married to your wife?
I think, you know, I have to give a lot of credit to my
partner, to my wife, because she's the type of person that
keeps me honest and they tell methings that I don't want to hear
but I need to hear. So I had this copilot that was
reflecting back to me like, and also the truth is, is like even
(10:37):
my breath worked like on a Lilia, you know, I was, I don't
want to say I was suspect, but Iwas arm's length.
And then watching her commit to her own healing journey,
watching her go to therapy, watching her go to breath
walking, watching her take a break, that was really kind of
the inspiration for me 'cause I was seeing the change in her
(10:59):
attitude and her behavior, but also just in her well-being.
And so she kind of opened the door for me to look in and then
obviously I had to walk in, but she walked in beside me and she
she checks me lovingly about because, you know, these are all
learned behaviors that the society conditions us and
continues to beat down on us. And she reminds me, Hey, you
(11:21):
know, I thought you want to be different than your father.
And I'm like, Dang, you know, ordifferent things.
But so I think from I was also very sensitive when I first
started dating her 'cause she had a child, you know, my Ella
from a previous marriage. And so I was very intentional
about that relationship and thenwith my son learning from what I
(11:45):
did with my Ella. But it's a different dynamic.
And but yeah, I think of having a good copilot.
And my father says on one of hisemails to me that I've been
reading on tour that he's so grateful to have my mother
'cause she's the greatest teacher in the world.
And that's kind of, you know, when I read that, I was like,
Dang, that describes my own wife.
(12:07):
And so it's been interesting to see the parallels, and I'm
hoping that I listen more than my father did.
But yeah, that's that, that thatthat's been super helpful for
me. I think that's really beautiful
and amazing. Make sure you give yourself lots
of Pats on the back and mugs andstuff 'cause that's amazing.
Just coming back to inner child,when you're on your this tour
(12:28):
currently for the book, are there men that are coming up to
you and saying I've never heard of the term inner child before
and thank you for making that'llmake me aware.
I haven't been using that term when I've been speaking, but
I've been contextualizing how I've gotten here and obviously
talking about being a young child and growing up in Ventura
and all of that stuff and how that impacted my, my perception
(12:50):
of myself and, and of race and gender and everything else.
But what I have seen is a lot ofmen like, you know, I'll share.
I was in Chicago all last week and there was this one man who
was 61 years old came, He was deeply moved.
And when I was reading, I can tell he put his head down.
And I was signing books afterward.
(13:10):
And he asked, can we talk afterward?
And I said, yeah, for sure. And so he's on a stairwell, and
he was weeping profoundly. And, you know, I asked
permission. Can I put my hand on his
shoulders? Yeah.
And I was like, hey, like, what's going on?
And just try telling me about his decades of addiction and how
(13:33):
he felt that he had let down hisfather, let down his parents.
And I always invoke and invite my father to join me on stage or
wherever I am and ancestors. And I always have a glass of
water that I pour for libation. I ask, hey, will you we go me
into to, to finish this kind of ritual that we've been in the
(13:56):
ceremony. I was like, yeah.
So we go outside, chose a tree. And I was like, you know, talk
to your father. He's here and I looked at him in
the eye. I said, you know, if if you said
all this amazing stuff about your siblings and you keep
talking about, you know, that part of you that was hurt and
(14:16):
troubled and harmed. And I said, if I was your dad, I
would just want you to know I'm so proud of you, probably more
proud of you than I am of your other siblings because of what
you've had or endured and overcame.
And as soon as I said that, thishuge wind came, just enveloped
us. And then he, he then poured the
(14:38):
water out and I could physicallysee him lighter.
And I guess what I'm trying to say is what I am saying is like
the more that we share our individual unique stories and
truth, the more we see how universal our stories are.
And I may have particular identities or pathways in, but
like, that's the power of story as medicine.
(15:01):
And that's why, you know, the oldest technology is
storytelling around a campfire or wherever you're from, because
you see yourself in someone elseand you see them and you.
And I think that's been the biggest thing is allowing and
modeling permission for men to feel and to just be.
And he, he, he asked, can I giveyou a hug?
(15:23):
And I said yes. And it's like, it's like, you
know, I've been holding this for31 years, this weight, and I
finally feel like I forgave and it was forgiven.
And that, you know, and that's the other piece I think is
normalizing, at least for me, mybelief system, you know, the
veil between the seen and the unseen world is really thin if
(15:45):
you tap into it. We've always like being a
Mexican descent culturally. We celebrate the other smart,
those like that one day, but it's not that day, it's every
day. It's so like.
Yeah, yeah. That's why.
The honoring and the Yeah, for sure.
So like, I think in that moment,that story I just shared, it was
(16:08):
all these things, all these reminders, all these
reflections, like your father isliterally with us right now.
We are both healing. All of us are healing together
because I, I'm healing in the process with you healing.
And that's kind of like the point, right?
Like we heal in community. So it's been amazing to be
reflectors of each other on thistour with the men in particular.
(16:29):
So when you were growing up teaching who who was who were
the influences in your life, thespiritual influences?
You say in your book that your grandfather obviously reminded
you of your cultural heritage, but you also I felt like when
you you had your really great that close, your Muslim friend
Ibrahim and it it felt like in the story that that was almost a
(16:51):
spiritual awakening when he passed that it it and correct me
if I'm wrong, but it felt like you'd been were guided to
Kyodonderos and just this other experience with nature.
So I wondered is that was that the first time or throughout
your life, your childhood, because of your heritage?
Had you been, you just mentioned, you know, the Day of
the dead. But this is something that
(17:13):
happens every day. The honoring, the remembering,
the rituals that we do in the ceremony.
And as you said, we feel into ifif you allow yourself and you
attune, you learn to attune, youcan absolutely feel into all
that is every day. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, I, I have to give a lot of credit for my spiritual
(17:34):
foundation is my mother, for sure.
Yeah, she worked multiple jobs for me to go to a Catholic
school. I always say I'm a recovering
Catholic, but the, the, the underpinnings, right?
The spirit of it, I still really, really hold true.
And I think in terms of my spirituality.
I was listening to this podcast on being and they were
(17:57):
interviewing Richard Rohr and hewas saying about like life is
sometimes it's not a dichotomy, but you can break it up into
two, two parts. And 1st part of life is where
you really like, like you're driven by ego and like it's
either this or nothing. In the last half of life, you're
realizing that all of that didn't really mean anything and
that it's really about like somedeeper connection and
(18:20):
relationship with self in the land and spirit.
And I feel like the last 20 years have been very intentional
about remembering my cultural practices and my spirituality
from from the from Mexico and particularly in Africa.
I think Abraham's passing was one of the strongest reminders
(18:44):
of how quickly this life goes, this physical life that we have
him and I would talk about spirituality all the time, him
from being a Muslim and me beingthis more spiritual person.
And you know, we would see always the parallels and
similarities in the way that humans have reinterpreted
religion. Unfortunately, is like we forget
(19:07):
that regardless of what text or faith you are, the, the
foundations are all really kind of the same based on love.
And you know, this, this spirit of, of, of service and what have
you. But I think Ibrahim kick started
me to remember my love of naturebecause he was such a bad ass
environmentalist. You know, when I was going to
(19:31):
say one of my favorite things about this whole thing is, you
know, is having people meet my dad and Ebrahim in particular,
because like they're alive. Like it's like I'm introducing
you to both of them even though they're not physically here, but
they are spiritually here, right?
And it's been so beautiful to have their names said out loud
and remembered. And they're that that's like the
(19:54):
biggest this gift for me is those, those.
Yeah, we buy to bow to them. Yeah, Yeah.
Beautiful. So, OK, coming back to real, the
real man in courts, what is thisidea of the real man?
What does it mean? I think we're in a crisis of
(20:16):
masculinity in real time. I think we're redefining
everything. I think traditionally the way
I've been raised or taught or condition is a, a, a real man
provides for his family, a real man protects the real man's
worth is really defined by his productivity.
And I think the, you know, the society we're living in right
(20:36):
now, all of those things are being thrown upside down with
gender roles changing, with the disruption of the economy or
economic uncertainty, a lot of the tenants of what to find a
man this current age is like it's breaking it down.
And I always say, you know, every other Thursday, I have the
the extreme honor and privilege of Co facilitating a men's
(20:59):
circle in Altadena, Pasadena with men that lost their homes
in the fire. And this has been such a
profound awakening because everything I just shared about
what defines a real man. Well, if you lost your home and
your job was burnt down, so you can't provide and or protect,
are you a man? Right.
(21:20):
And to me, we're redefining it in real time.
I think, you know, race and gender are both social
constructs. So all this book is kind of
rooted in a father son relationship.
It's really about masculine, feminine energies.
Now we we both have those and depending on on what you believe
(21:43):
too, like this is we're enteringinto a different age to age of
Aquarius, age of feminine spiritrising, which makes sense.
Why all this really harmful, toxic ways of being in the
manosphere, if you will, are happening?
But what I've learned is we needto find new language and new
(22:07):
ways to call in rather than callout men.
And I feel the last few decades we haven't done a good enough
job as a society. And when I say this real man, if
you look at the statistics, right, this, this image of what
we're supposed to be that is unattainable in this current
(22:28):
environment, I would argue is why the rates of suicide,
depression, loneliness for men are as high as they've ever
been. And for me, this book journey
is, yes, highlighting that because this is something that
needs to be addressed, but also highlighting the men of the
men's circle, highlighting that man I just shared who was 61 and
(22:50):
had the courage to break down infront of me and release what he
was holding in. Because when we don't release,
that's when our bodies start to break down, but that's when we
start acting on unhealthy, harmful ways to self and others.
And there's a lot of incredible work happening around the
country. That's the one thing I know for
sure, but we don't have access to it or know about it.
(23:12):
And when we don't know that, then that's what makes too many
men feel like we're the only onethat feels a particular way.
And that's how capitalism or patriarchy feeds off of the
isolation. And the more that can create
community and share these kind of sacred stories, that's such a
profound way to help heal families and generations.
(23:34):
And so that last part that I shared, that to me is the
redefining a manhood in real time and men that are able to be
in those kind of circles or those spaces they leave
transformed and also able to rely on others for their
well-being. And I also think, and I've been
thinking a lot about this lately, when particularly for
(23:57):
men, this happens for women too,when you're a child and your
needs are not met. And in the case of boys, little
young toddlers being told not tocry, to toughen up, you know,
not getting picked up and held. Or perhaps the father is telling
the mother or the other caregiver, don't pick him up,
let him cry it outlet him, whatever it raises, it teaches
(24:19):
that child that their needs are not met, won't be met.
And so as they grow up and become men.
And I witnessed this in my own relationship with my husband,
who's going to soon be an ex-husband there.
And I've tried to talk to him a lot about this, but it's there's
it's another reason why I thought I'd say to him, you need
to read this book. When I'm done, you're really
(24:40):
going to give you this book. It's you're going to learn so
much from it. It's going to be great for you.
But I really, I could see in himand in other men that there's a
reliance on the partner in the relationship to, to needle their
meats, to do all of those thingsso that they can go out into the
world. And in quotes again, be the man,
be the one who's all this stuff because they come home and
(25:02):
there's an expectation of, oh, someone else is going to see or
he or whoever's taking going to just take care of all these
other things that I don't have to think about.
So I wonder ahead, in your experience, with your own
personal experience and with what you're now sharing and
teaching, have you thought abouthow when boys are being raised,
how perhaps if their needs aren't met, that that might, you
(25:25):
know, affect them growing up? Well, absolutely, for sure.
And I think a lot of what's connected to that is that we, we
do not do cultural rites of passages or initiation like we
used to do. And so, you know, the initiation
phase for a lot of young men nowis, is the video game or you
(25:47):
know what I'm saying, like the, the, the social media or what,
what have you there are these, these worlds that to them are
real. So I'm not downplaying it, but
we used to have very particular ways of of guiding young boys in
particular through adolescence to adulthood, to eldership.
(26:09):
And in that process, though, yourecognize needs to your point of
needs. And I think right now it's
compounded because the expectation that we're supposed
to provide so much that, you know, arguably could say most
people in the United States, their needs are not being met
like period, regardless of background.
(26:32):
But then when you Add all these layers of what you're expected
to provide and, you know, we, we, we too many of us
unfortunately take out our pain of unmet needs on those closest
to us. And we don't have the vocabulary
or the understanding like, no, what do you?
That's not how shared parenting or shared relation is supposed
(26:58):
to be, you know, and there's again, there's not outlets for
that, that release and that thatthat belonging, that sense of
belonging and coming together, you know, and you know, the
truth is, if you look at when you're a young man and who you
look up to as your role models, right?
And oftentimes people looked up to whether rock stars or
(27:20):
presidents and right now folks that are taking up a lot of
airtime is the current presidentand current like billionaires
that again, 99% of folks aren't going to reach that place.
And it's clouded in this, this lie, if you will.
(27:41):
And folks that aren't don't takeaccountability or are held
accountable for what they do, right?
And so again, like, if that's the the image and you need to
hold on to something for your own sanity, that's what I think
that's the breakdown right now. Because then what ends up
happening, like what you're sharing is like, we have a
(28:03):
breakdown of the relationships that matter the most to us.
And it often times starts with our own relationship with
ourself. Our relationship with self
breaks down. And of course, it makes sense,
the relationship with everyone else around us.
And and that's where I think forme, the biggest awakening is
like, how am I going to learn tolove my partner or love someone
(28:24):
else if I don't even love myselfbecause my needs weren't met as
a child or my needs aren't even being met now?
Or like you said, like I learnedearly on, my needs won't be met.
So therefore, why should I give someone else what they're asking
because mine aren't going to be met.
You know, it's like this downward spiral.
And that's where I found circlesbeen so profound because this
(28:47):
isn't unique to me or you. It's like normal, but it's,
it's, it's taboo to talk about it circle with men and they can
hear from someone that's gone through a painful divorce or
someone that's going through a painful traumatic experience and
see yourself in that like you're, you're learning, you
(29:10):
know, 'cause at the end of the day, we are all hardwired for
connection. We all want to belong.
We all want the sense of love, whether or not we articulate or
verbalize it, like from infancy to now, right.
And so that's the big that's like the most transforming
moments I've seen is having those really raw, honest, non
(29:31):
judgmental conversations with other men about like, I'm, I'm
messed up here and I'm I'm ashamed to admit it and I'm
ashamed to take accountability. So then I don't and then things
breakdown. How did you do it?
Oh, I lost. I'm on my second, third wife and
I'll tell you, learn from me like how to do it all over
(29:54):
again. Yeah, like, but we don't have
those those spaces as much. You know, and of course, you
also share in your book what's being promoted in society.
You talk about when you took your son to the WrestleMania
event and what that what that experience was like for him.
And then you realized that you did not realize you were already
(30:14):
aware of this. But just talk a little bit about
that moment for you. And in that environment, were
there also a lot of women at theWWE?
Like, I mean, I'm sure there are.
We've never been taught. Yeah, there was a there was a
lot of women, ironically, the, Ithink the the average age or
people my age, you know, bringing their children, which
(30:37):
was like this could be considered a rite of passage,
right? In this environment.
That was some of the most aggressive.
Well, it's all about showing offthe man, like right, the
physique, the strength, the this, the that.
Like I'm such a macho thinking of jump off the side and squash
another man. Yes, yes, and yes, 100%.
(31:00):
And it was some of the most homoerotic, tender moments you
see of two men, my favorite wrestler coming down in
literally all pink dominatrix. But because he's going to do all
that very like chop off the top of a cage and body slam you,
then it it, it, it affirms it's OK that he's so flamboyant, for
(31:24):
example, right? Or it's it's socially acceptable
in that same space where you're literally beating each other,
but then at the end you can embrace naked by the way you're
only wearing like. Those little pants undies.
And and embrace and the crowd goes crazy and some of this is
(31:46):
like immortal, you know what I'msaying?
Because like, it's OK. Like, you know, like and that's
where we don't talk enough aboutthe other part that and part.
It was sweet. Sorry to interrupt you, but it
was sweet how you talked about your son getting emotional Dad,
the other dad that was there. And, and it also reminded me,
(32:08):
reminded me a little bit of the ancient Greek, the original
Olympics when they were the original wrestlers, right.
Us exactly, yeah. And that's why I think we are
changing as much as like the media wants to manipulate us
with algorithms or what have youthat oh, things, things don't
(32:29):
get me wrong, we have a lot of work to do.
However, that example of me looking over and seeing another
man embracing his son when my dad taking me maybe would have
gave me a pat on the back. We're just not even knowing what
to do. That shows progress because we
didn't tell our kids stop crying.
(32:50):
We just held them and we were meeting that need that we're
talking about. And that's what I'm kind of
getting at. I think the more that men can be
in space with each other, the more we can call in men, the
more that we can be better fathers and partners like.
Then the unmet need of us as children will be met in real
time. So I was meeting my needs as a
(33:13):
child while I was providing my son with what he needed in that
moment. Yeah.
That's and then seeing someone else like, God, that was
amazing, you know? Yeah, because it wasn't
isolated. And then we both kind of looked
at each other. I, I, I mentioned this book
like, I lock eyes with the otherfather and we just nod.
(33:33):
Just nod. But not in like, thank you and
assurance and we're doing the right thing.
You don't have to be embarrassed.
Yeah, that's cool. And do you mind just sharing
because some people might be wondering why was your son?
Why were the boys crying at? At a wrestling.
Oh, yeah, yeah. They were crying because my
son's favorite wrestler at the time was Cody Rhodes, and he was
trying to win the Ultimate Heavyweight Championship belt.
(33:57):
And it was a storyline that had been years in the making.
He was a legendary. He was the son of a legendary
wrestler. So everybody thought this guy
was going to win that WrestleMania and he had a shirt
on and this epic battle. And obviously him and the other
young, young childhood that was their favorite wrestler, and he
ends up losing. So that's how my son was crying
(34:19):
because his wrestler they came to see when the championship
lost and unbeknownst to me, I didn't know how deeply invested
he was in the outcome till I looked over and noticed he was
crying. That's really sweet.
Yeah. So then, what does the Divine
Feminine mean to you? Yeah, You know, I think the
(34:39):
divine feminine for me, there isno feminine without the
masculine. So divine feminine for me is
really tapping into the full spectrum of all the emotions
that we have. Robert Bly has this book and he
talks about how we have bifurcated the feminine and
(35:01):
masculine the same way we bifurcate genders.
We were saying we talk about Mother Earth and Father Sky, for
example, but certain Celtic traditions and other traditions,
it's other, it's also Mother Skyand Father Earth.
And when I read that, I was like, wow, that that's true.
You know, So me the divine feminine, though, is embracing
(35:24):
all the spectrum, but also really redefining this idea that
vulnerability is strength and also redefining manhood as
tenderness as the ability to release, because we often times
think releasing is a feminine quality.
And to me, I'm trying to just weave because, you know, life is
(35:44):
just weaving and circles. And so that to me is, is how I'm
trying to really focus in embracing the divine feminine
within me. And the biggest example that
would be it's been very difficult for me to cry in
public. And before the tour started, I
would have moments like when I first saw the book, for example,
(36:07):
and my wife was filming me and it's just about to break.
And the little voice in me was like, don't bro, you're you're
on camera, you better stop. So I stopped and this tour has
taught me how to not stop, to let it go all the way through.
And it doesn't. It's not manufacturer, it's not
something that I like plan, but like 2 out of three times when
(36:30):
I'm reading an excerpt from the book at a book talk,
specifically if it's a chapter where it's an e-mail or letter
from my dad, I can't, I can't, Ican't control it.
And I've realized that that is the powerful part of the
feminine in me that's allowing other men to also embrace their
(36:51):
own divine feminine. And all of us feel so much
lighter when that happens, because that allows permission
to the other man to also shed tears, you know?
Yeah, to be vulnerable and to really share and show that,
yeah, you're in a safe place, it's OK.
You're you're into your feelingsand that's that's a memory that
you're being reminded of the love you had for your dad.
(37:13):
And that some of those letters in the book are really the
emails that he the exchange. That's the only time really he
could say I love you in a lot ofin the right.
Like that was he couldn't actually ever said out of his
mouth. So I mean, this is obviously
sacred about lessons, teaching my father how to love.
Do do you feel like you that youtaught him how to love?
(37:34):
I believe this whole journey of writing the book has allowed
both my father myself to learn how to express verbally the
words I love you because when you said that that in those
emails he says love you mijo. For example, when I say that out
loud, it's as if he's saying it.So he and he is, that's the
(37:58):
that's the irony of this whole beautiful dance relationship
with our ancestors is I'm reading his words to me out
loud. So therefore he is telling me
out loud. And I strongly believe that I'm
healing for myself, my son and my father at the same time and
my grandfather. They say in our cultural
traditions that we're not only healing for self, but for past
(38:19):
ancestors and future ancestors. And I truly believe that.
So we are teaching each other how to love and how to express
it in real time. So.
And what about your brother? Has he read your book and does
he feel the same way? Yeah, he has.
You know, this book has brought my brother and I closer than
(38:39):
we've been our whole lives. Before I turned into finding
manuscripts, One of the things Iwas most looking forward to and
most not looking forward to was reading my my brother's chapter
to him because I wanted him to share his thoughts before I
turned it in. And I remember going to his
house. I drank every bottle of alcohol
(39:00):
I could find really. And we went his backyard.
We lit a fire and I read, I reada couple other like other
chapters to like warm up to his and I'm we're reading this and
we're crying. And then finally I said, now I
want to read your chapter. So I read his chapter to him and
we just embraced in our tears. And I'll never forget the next
(39:22):
day the way this chapter ends, the saying the Wildman chapter
referring to that text he sent me.
No matter what happens, we'll beOK because we have each other.
Those are words my inner child wanted to hear my whole life,
and I'm sure his wanted to, but he checked me because he's like,
you know, I'm more I'm more thanthen the chapter I read to him
(39:45):
that night and when he said thatI was like, you're right, like
we are both the St. and the Wildman and there's aspects of
all of that and we have to love and embrace all of that and
company. The realization that more than
any other person on this planet,my brother reflects me and I
reflect him more than anyone else is so deep because that's
(40:07):
that's a product of the love of our parents, but also the
product of our love of each other.
And that's one of my favorite chapters because it happened in
real time, like our healing and and deepening of our
relationship was teased out through the writing of the book,
but in particular that chapter. And so now we call each other
more and I don't have to get wasted off the alcohol or
(40:29):
whatever to say, hey, I love youbro.
I love you too. And that's like the full circle.
And that's where it's like my father does know how to love now
because look, his children are are modeling that for him and
our own children. That's really beautiful.
And are you sharing that story when with, with the men's
circles or how are you, how are you teaching them?
(40:52):
Or perhaps because you talk about teachable moments too in
your book, guiding men to tap into their feminine sides,
especially when they, you know, this, this culture we live in
where it's you're considered, you know, not a man or whatever
your masculinity is more important.
How do you how do you teach men to really tune into that side so
they can the softness of the heart, really?
(41:13):
Well I have to give a lot of love and gratitude and
appreciation to Yancey Cummings who is a Co facilitator.
He is Co founder of an amazing organization called Hands in the
Soil in Pasadena, Los Angeles area.
And one of the things I've really learned the most from
Yancey is so much of the pain and trauma that we stores in our
(41:33):
bodies. All the isms are are are body
base like we hold on to the pain.
And so he has taught me how important it is to breathe, but
also to release like physically.And so we invite men into the
sacred circle, racial matter practice, but also just, you
(41:55):
know, we're not therapists. So I statements non judgement,
non shame and letting people just have the space to share.
And what I realized in just thatsimple act, it transcends
gender, but also is the full embracing of all the energies
that we're talking about, both the masculine and the feminine.
And for me, I'll, I'll name it like, I'll, I'll share things
(42:17):
that are really personal to me as a way to model the safety of
the, of the space, but also the need for me to do that because
in doing so allows other people permission if they choose to
also share something. And in that sharing, like I
said, we find the medicine in the story and we find community
(42:38):
because we're not alone. And the proof that it works is
the fact that consistently consistent 13 to 20 men are
coming every other Thursday. And you know, we scale because
it's different men, but it's always this magical number
there. But those men are all part of
families. So it's like we're impacting not
just a person. We're not impacting their
(43:00):
children, their their partners, their families.
And it's been beautiful witness even them making lifelong
connections and relationships with each other, like hanging
out outside of the circle, for example, you know, so and then
Yancey's just masterful. I just got to put it out there.
Like he will do these exercises that really push us to
deconstruct what we've been taught.
(43:21):
Like everything from touch, you know, we ask permission, but
even just touching a man's like leg in a circle, like what get,
you know, like deep things or looking at someone in the eye.
Like we don't do some of this stuff because fear that we've
been taught or whatever, but we break down all those things in
the sacredness of the circle. And that allows you just to be
(43:45):
more accepting of who you are and all your identities.
Very empowering, I can imagine for a lot of men and and you're
right, it's like super transformatives and and it
affects the whole everybody in their lives gets to benefit from
that healing work and everybody in their bloodline gets to it
benefit as well. Yeah.
So you have these other chaptersthat are really beautiful.
(44:07):
The wisdom of children. Yeah.
What have you learned from children?
So much, you know, they say thatchildren choose their parents,
at least that's what I believe. And they also say that children
have a special bonded connectionwith elders because one is
entering from the spirit world and 1 is going into the spirit
world. And I can say that my children
(44:29):
have definitely no, what parts of me have to work on still what
you know, we call them what buttons they push, so they push
them because that's what they'resupposed to do for me to evolve.
My children have definitely taught me like my daughter, like
I said, patience or, or just howto be a better person.
But also I've, I've seen my father was able to be
(44:51):
emotionally expressive, verballyexpressive only with his
grandchildren, even more so thanhis own wife.
To my mom. He was just so loving, like
hugging, kissing them, jump around, holding their hands,
like in it. It reminded me that every
person, regardless of age or identity, that's what they
(45:12):
really want. They want that.
But it's for him. It was only socially acceptable
for him to do that because it's socially acceptable for
grandparents to be affectionate with their grandchildren.
And my brother and I, we would watch this and you'd be like,
you know, 30 is fine. I want that right now like.
What's heck? What's going on?
Hold. On like, obviously you're
(45:32):
capable of doing it and you loveto do it and want to do it.
And so that's, that's the wisdomI've learned from children is
the same I've learned from elders.
It's like, you know, the, the children come in with such ache
and come in with such gifts and talents.
And that's why I say I want to remember.
I never want to lose a inner child in me because that inner
(45:53):
child's holding that flame that I was brought into this world to
do. And I feel like the elders,
because they're going into spirit world, they recognize the
flame in the child, but also theflame in them that may be burnt
out or maybe it's still still like flickering.
But they want to make sure to love up on that child so they
can continue that journey and that message that they were
(46:14):
brought here to do with their purpose.
That's right. You know, when, when my kids
were little, my son's now 21 andmy daughter's 16.
And when they were toddlers and they're first starting to show
you what they're guided, what they're gravitating towards.
And my husband would say was trying to influence our son in
particular to do other things, things that he that he was
really into. And I would always say let him
(46:35):
be. He's showing us that that's not
his thing. He's show.
He's literally showing you his ball.
Like, you know, maybe he's not like he's not supposed to be
playing soccer. That's not his thing.
Football, you know, it's go up in a full Italian household.
That's what it what it was and you're into or you know, doesn't
mean that's his thing. And he's very musical.
I said just let him express likelet him just we, you don't force
(46:59):
because then we're going to lose.
He'll lose that or to get suppressed and maybe not come
out to later in life because he's doing what he thinks he
should do for you. So it's, it is really important
that we embrace our children andwitness them as their own
individuals so we can just see who are you?
And then that's where they, for me anyway, the lessons of being
(47:19):
'cause I'm like, and then they show you, like you said.
And we don't teach that in schools.
We don't teach, you know, in schools also say you must do
this. You've got to be a
mathematician, you have to do science, you can't be creative.
And that's really sad. We lose so much in that.
I think one of the biggest sacred lessons of children in in
life is we don't control anything.
(47:40):
And that's where I think the breakdown in masculinity is
happening 'cause we don't have control over anything.
And that's the power of death orgrief is it reminds you really
quickly that we can't control that.
The only constant is change. It is impermeance, right?
And that's a hard thing to graspin the West, in the West in
(48:01):
particular. Yeah, we just don't teach that.
And we we don't teach how to tune into our innate gifts.
Yeah. So in your chapter on faith,
yeah, what is faith? Great question.
The the eternal question for me,faith is, is having a deep
belief in something bigger than myself and bigger than us, and
(48:23):
then knowing that I am connectedto whatever that is and that
there if I can tap into that faith that I will always be OK.
Back to this question of control.
My faith knows that I can't control the outcome, but I know
I will be OK. And the faith is, you know, it's
(48:47):
been my driving compass to be risk taking to know I can jump
and the net will appear because I know something will catch me.
And it may not, may not be what I think.
Like I think that's how you how we even started the
conversation. Like in the writing process we
were talking about like we may have the whole like outline and
(49:09):
idea, but I have faith that whatever's supposed to happen is
going to happen. And it may look completely
different than what I thought inthe beginning, but I know I'll
be a better person of it and I'll grow from that.
And so I find extreme amount of direction for my spirituality
that's rooted in a deep faith insomething that connects us all
and that's bigger than any one person.
(49:31):
Yeah. Is it the same as trust?
I think so. I think my faith in humanity is
based on the trust that if we truly love each other, then we
can heal the child that's been wounded.
I have. I have trust in humanity,
despite what may be happening inour society right now, because I
(49:53):
have faith that we are, we are good.
And so how can people find out about you?
And are you, where are your circles?
You're only doing them with yourbook tour or are they in
California? Can they be?
Are they online? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, well, if you go to sacredlessons.com, it has the
book tour schedule. I'd say one out of every two
(50:13):
book talks that I do. There's a healing circle every
other Thursday. We do them in Los Angeles.
You can go to dinaheels.com for that, and then you can follow me
online at Mr. Mike de la Rocha, MRMIKEDELARCHA, Mr. Mike de la
Rocha. And that's kind of where I'll
share a lot of things as well. Yeah, like I look forward to
(50:36):
being on as many wonderful conversations and circles with
anyone and everyone that I can meet in this this lifetime.
So. Yeah, amazing.
Doing such great work in the world and awesome.
What a gift for to men, right? And to your son and also your
daughter, but your brother and all the men in your life and all
the other men who are really struggling with needing to
(50:58):
connect with the truth of who they are.
Correct. Coming home to ourselves so
thank you so much for the opportunity to speak with you
and all that you do and all the energy that you put out into the
world I know we need more of this and so I just thank you
from the bottom of my heart for for being a vessel for these
kind of important exchanges so thank you you're.
(51:20):
Welcome. Thank you.
Thank you so much.
Hello, and thanks for listening to the Conscious Diva podcast.
I'm Tatiana, and joining me in this episode is Mike de la
Rocha. Mike is a visionary strategist,
acclaimed artist, and compellingvoice for change.
He is celebrated as one of the most influential change makers
of our time, and he's graciouslyjoining me to discuss his debut
book, Sacred Lessons Teaching MyFather How to Love.
(00:30):
His new book explores how inherited definitions of manhood
profoundly impacted Mike's ability to connect with his
father, his family, and ultimately himself.
He invites readers on a transformative journey of self
discovery, forgiveness, and love.
Some of the topics we discuss are the challenges that men face
in expressing emotions and the impact that has on their
(00:51):
relationships, how patriarchy and toxic masculinity shape the
way men are taught to relate to others, and how men can learn to
embody and access their own innate femininity.
I hope you enjoyed this episode and thank you so much for
listening. Thank you so much for being.
(01:11):
I really enjoyed your book Sacred Lessons.
Have it here. Oh.
You got some. You marked it up too.
Oh yeah, totally, always becausethere's you, you have some
really important lessons obviously in here, hence the
name. So the title of your book is
sacred lessons, teaching my father how to love.
But this is it's not just about him.
(01:32):
It's obviously your journey and sacred lessons, right.
And that's a really beautiful love is a beautiful topic.
So when you were winding this book, where did where did this
all sort of what was the motivation?
Well, I know the motivation was literally my dad propelled me on
this whole healing journey. But I've been sharing that I
(01:53):
actually wrote his story first. I spent the first three years of
losing him, like listening painfully, listening to all
these interviews he did when he was alive and interviewing like
his first roommate in college and different people in his
life. And I was actually writing a
book in his voice, reflecting back on his life, the last five
(02:15):
days he was alive. And, you know, I got an amazing
agent and she went out to try tosell it.
And no one bought that book. And so it was, it was a lot.
It was a it was the catalyst, I think because I feel like my dad
in the spirit world was like orchestrating this whole thing.
He was like, no, mijo, you have to write your story.
(02:37):
You know, like, even though I was writing his voice, these
were like, you know, some thingswere exactly what he said and
some I was interpreting. Right?
Yeah. But the bigger lesson for me was
I was not dealing with the griefof losing my dad and I was
hiding behind his voice. So then once I kind of like, you
know, started going to therapy more often to doing other
(03:00):
things, that's what the book you're holding, that was the
book that was birthed was through that kind of healing
journey of exploring and uncovering.
Like, why is it that I'm a lot more like my father than I
recognize or acknowledge before the writing of the book?
So it's so amazing how in the book writing process, the book
(03:21):
you feel inspired to write well,that we think wants to come
through actually ends up not being not being the one at all.
Kind of a similar situation right now actually.
Exactly. Yeah, so I, it's nice to hear
that. You know, I've heard it from a
few other people, but I, I know that OK, this something else had
(03:41):
to happen, but so, OK, you have so many amazing points.
And the reason I wanted to talk to you is that you're a male and
you've gone on this incredible inner child journey.
And I just felt right away, wow,that's an amazing, really
important lesson to share. And there's where in this time,
as you well know, we've been in it for for centuries, the this
(04:01):
patriarchal, you know, situationglobally.
And you have such a beautiful message.
So I wanted to just begin with inner child work for men.
You know, you mentioned in your book you had read another book,
Us Getting Past You and Me and this concept of the adaptive
child. So how did, when you first
(04:22):
discovered this, how did that resonate with you?
Had you, were you familiar with the concept of inner child work?
I feel like perhaps many men aren't familiar with the with
this phrase and it might sound too feminine.
Like what are you talking about?Yeah, I was turned on to the
concept of like, well, the innerchild work really from my breath
(04:44):
work teacher, Aunt Olivia. So I have to shout her out.
I talked a lot about her in the last chapter, but really just
realizing that a lot of the wounds that I was trying to to
heal were from what happened to me as a young child.
I think that book kind of provided a little bit more
context and then doing the work provided more.
And then just in terms of the larger context of, like you
(05:07):
mentioned, patriarchy, it was a lot of like predominantly like
queer women of color, feminists that were influencing the way
that I thought about myself in this issue.
Bell hooks, Glorian Zaldua, Audrey Lore, like these icons,
right? And that was giving me a
framework. But then in doing the work, I
(05:29):
was like, well, I couldn't find a book like, say, for example,
from a Chicano to a Chicano or like from a male of color
perspective specifically on that.
There's a lot of incredible books obviously out there, but I
was like, well, what's somethingthat I can give to my own son
that was more accessible, wasn'ttoo heady, if you will, and
(05:50):
again, without judgement, but just like something that you
could read. And that was really the impetus
for it. And then realizing that I'm
still that 1213 year old child right now as a 40 year old, you
know, so like that is that will always be me.
I don't want to lose that either, you know.
And so Luis Rodriguez, a dear mentor of mine, always says in
(06:12):
order to truly heal, you have togo straight through the wound.
And you know, the West teaches us to stare away from anything
like that. And but all of our practices,
cultural practice, say you have,that's part of the initiation.
That's the ritual of it. Yeah, yeah.
And you write about your grandfather's story and your
relationship to him and your God.
(06:35):
And so I wondered, and of course, you share about your
relationship with your own son. But I wondered how having all
these males and being a dad of aboy yourself, how has that
impacted you? And obviously you share a lot of
these things and I've written somany questions around all of
this, but yeah, if you wouldn't mind just sharing that.
(06:57):
Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think, you know,
growing up, the two men that hadthe most influence on my life in
terms of how I viewed men and myself were my father and my
grandfather, my well, and my father's father.
I never knew my mom's dad 'causeshe never knew him.
He left when she was really young.
So I only always had one grandfather.
(07:20):
And it was interesting to watch their dynamic.
They had a very complicated relationship and but they were
both suffering in silence. They both wanted to communicate
but didn't necessarily have the language to do so.
And I feel like, you know, my father in reflecting like in a
(07:41):
lot of the reasons why did he pass so young?
You know, you know, he passed at66, which is pretty young.
Yeah, compared to your grandfather who died at 104,
which was amazing. It's a whole nother lifetime.
And I think, you know, there's multiple reasons for it.
But I think at the crux of it was just the difficulty that man
(08:03):
and my dad and me even have beenasking for help because the
societal definition is that men have to tough it out.
It can't be a burden on others, can't be emotionally expressive.
So we hold all of that in and I just feel the, the, you know,
our bodies are breaking down by the weight.
(08:24):
I say a patriarchy, but also theweight of unexpressed emotion
and feeling. And that all to me was like the
driving force for me, 'cause I was like, I, I want to live
longer than 66, God willing. But what are the, some of the
things that I could do to do that And, and how can I help
other men? Because I've been on engaged on
(08:44):
this really beautiful 25 city tour across the country and
meaning men both in rural and urban areas from everywhere from
New York to Wisconsin and Chicago and everywhere in
between. And what I can tell you is I
haven't met a man yet that doesn't want his inner child and
(09:05):
current self to be loved and held.
And whether or not it is me articulating it or creating the
space for us to articulate it together, it's been really
profound to see and it's not talked about.
And so my hope and prayer is that we can normalize these kind
of conversations like you and I are having, but also just
normalizing and redefining strength as being able to, to
(09:28):
ask for help is the most courageous thing that a person
can do, regardless of gender. And so that's been really my
driving force cause looking at my father, my grandfather, and
like, what's the lesson that I'msupposed to learn from that?
And I think it's that. And so with learned behaviour, I
mean, were you saying that when you became a dad and obviously
(09:50):
you, you were a stepmother firstbefore you had your own son.
So how when you became when you were a dad of your daughter is a
is your stepdaughter and then you have your own biological
son. So was there a difference?
Could you? Were you noticing these learned
behaviours, these sort of masculine stories?
Were you noticing them in yourself when you had a son?
(10:12):
Or were you seeing them when youhad your daughter?
When you got married to your wife?
I think, you know, I have to give a lot of credit to my
partner, to my wife, because she's the type of person that
keeps me honest and they tell methings that I don't want to hear
but I need to hear. So I had this copilot that was
reflecting back to me like, and also the truth is, is like even
(10:37):
my breath worked like on a Lilia, you know, I was, I don't
want to say I was suspect, but Iwas arm's length.
And then watching her commit to her own healing journey,
watching her go to therapy, watching her go to breath
walking, watching her take a break, that was really kind of
the inspiration for me 'cause I was seeing the change in her
(10:59):
attitude and her behavior, but also just in her well-being.
And so she kind of opened the door for me to look in and then
obviously I had to walk in, but she walked in beside me and she
she checks me lovingly about because, you know, these are all
learned behaviors that the society conditions us and
continues to beat down on us. And she reminds me, Hey, you
(11:21):
know, I thought you want to be different than your father.
And I'm like, Dang, you know, ordifferent things.
But so I think from I was also very sensitive when I first
started dating her 'cause she had a child, you know, my Ella
from a previous marriage. And so I was very intentional
about that relationship and thenwith my son learning from what I
(11:45):
did with my Ella. But it's a different dynamic.
And but yeah, I think of having a good copilot.
And my father says on one of hisemails to me that I've been
reading on tour that he's so grateful to have my mother
'cause she's the greatest teacher in the world.
And that's kind of, you know, when I read that, I was like,
Dang, that describes my own wife.
(12:07):
And so it's been interesting to see the parallels, and I'm
hoping that I listen more than my father did.
But yeah, that's that, that thatthat's been super helpful for
me. I think that's really beautiful
and amazing. Make sure you give yourself lots
of Pats on the back and mugs andstuff 'cause that's amazing.
Just coming back to inner child,when you're on your this tour
(12:28):
currently for the book, are there men that are coming up to
you and saying I've never heard of the term inner child before
and thank you for making that'llmake me aware.
I haven't been using that term when I've been speaking, but
I've been contextualizing how I've gotten here and obviously
talking about being a young child and growing up in Ventura
and all of that stuff and how that impacted my, my perception
(12:50):
of myself and, and of race and gender and everything else.
But what I have seen is a lot ofmen like, you know, I'll share.
I was in Chicago all last week and there was this one man who
was 61 years old came, He was deeply moved.
And when I was reading, I can tell he put his head down.
And I was signing books afterward.
(13:10):
And he asked, can we talk afterward?
And I said, yeah, for sure. And so he's on a stairwell, and
he was weeping profoundly. And, you know, I asked
permission. Can I put my hand on his
shoulders? Yeah.
And I was like, hey, like, what's going on?
And just try telling me about his decades of addiction and how
(13:33):
he felt that he had let down hisfather, let down his parents.
And I always invoke and invite my father to join me on stage or
wherever I am and ancestors. And I always have a glass of
water that I pour for libation. I ask, hey, will you we go me
into to, to finish this kind of ritual that we've been in the
(13:56):
ceremony. I was like, yeah.
So we go outside, chose a tree. And I was like, you know, talk
to your father. He's here and I looked at him in
the eye. I said, you know, if if you said
all this amazing stuff about your siblings and you keep
talking about, you know, that part of you that was hurt and
(14:16):
troubled and harmed. And I said, if I was your dad, I
would just want you to know I'm so proud of you, probably more
proud of you than I am of your other siblings because of what
you've had or endured and overcame.
And as soon as I said that, thishuge wind came, just enveloped
us. And then he, he then poured the
(14:38):
water out and I could physicallysee him lighter.
And I guess what I'm trying to say is what I am saying is like
the more that we share our individual unique stories and
truth, the more we see how universal our stories are.
And I may have particular identities or pathways in, but
like, that's the power of story as medicine.
(15:01):
And that's why, you know, the oldest technology is
storytelling around a campfire or wherever you're from, because
you see yourself in someone elseand you see them and you.
And I think that's been the biggest thing is allowing and
modeling permission for men to feel and to just be.
And he, he, he asked, can I giveyou a hug?
(15:23):
And I said yes. And it's like, it's like, you
know, I've been holding this for31 years, this weight, and I
finally feel like I forgave and it was forgiven.
And that, you know, and that's the other piece I think is
normalizing, at least for me, mybelief system, you know, the
veil between the seen and the unseen world is really thin if
(15:45):
you tap into it. We've always like being a
Mexican descent culturally. We celebrate the other smart,
those like that one day, but it's not that day, it's every
day. It's so like.
Yeah, yeah. That's why.
The honoring and the Yeah, for sure.
So like, I think in that moment,that story I just shared, it was
(16:08):
all these things, all these reminders, all these
reflections, like your father isliterally with us right now.
We are both healing. All of us are healing together
because I, I'm healing in the process with you healing.
And that's kind of like the point, right?
Like we heal in community. So it's been amazing to be
reflectors of each other on thistour with the men in particular.
(16:29):
So when you were growing up teaching who who was who were
the influences in your life, thespiritual influences?
You say in your book that your grandfather obviously reminded
you of your cultural heritage, but you also I felt like when
you you had your really great that close, your Muslim friend
Ibrahim and it it felt like in the story that that was almost a
(16:51):
spiritual awakening when he passed that it it and correct me
if I'm wrong, but it felt like you'd been were guided to
Kyodonderos and just this other experience with nature.
So I wondered is that was that the first time or throughout
your life, your childhood, because of your heritage?
Had you been, you just mentioned, you know, the Day of
the dead. But this is something that
(17:13):
happens every day. The honoring, the remembering,
the rituals that we do in the ceremony.
And as you said, we feel into ifif you allow yourself and you
attune, you learn to attune, youcan absolutely feel into all
that is every day. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, I, I have to give a lot of credit for my spiritual
(17:34):
foundation is my mother, for sure.
Yeah, she worked multiple jobs for me to go to a Catholic
school. I always say I'm a recovering
Catholic, but the, the, the underpinnings, right?
The spirit of it, I still really, really hold true.
And I think in terms of my spirituality.
I was listening to this podcast on being and they were
(17:57):
interviewing Richard Rohr and hewas saying about like life is
sometimes it's not a dichotomy, but you can break it up into
two, two parts. And 1st part of life is where
you really like, like you're driven by ego and like it's
either this or nothing. In the last half of life, you're
realizing that all of that didn't really mean anything and
that it's really about like somedeeper connection and
(18:20):
relationship with self in the land and spirit.
And I feel like the last 20 years have been very intentional
about remembering my cultural practices and my spirituality
from from the from Mexico and particularly in Africa.
I think Abraham's passing was one of the strongest reminders
(18:44):
of how quickly this life goes, this physical life that we have
him and I would talk about spirituality all the time, him
from being a Muslim and me beingthis more spiritual person.
And you know, we would see always the parallels and
similarities in the way that humans have reinterpreted
religion. Unfortunately, is like we forget
(19:07):
that regardless of what text or faith you are, the, the
foundations are all really kind of the same based on love.
And you know, this, this spirit of, of, of service and what have
you. But I think Ibrahim kick started
me to remember my love of naturebecause he was such a bad ass
environmentalist. You know, when I was going to
(19:31):
say one of my favorite things about this whole thing is, you
know, is having people meet my dad and Ebrahim in particular,
because like they're alive. Like it's like I'm introducing
you to both of them even though they're not physically here, but
they are spiritually here, right?
And it's been so beautiful to have their names said out loud
and remembered. And they're that that's like the
(19:54):
biggest this gift for me is those, those.
Yeah, we buy to bow to them. Yeah, Yeah.
Beautiful. So, OK, coming back to real, the
real man in courts, what is thisidea of the real man?
What does it mean? I think we're in a crisis of
(20:16):
masculinity in real time. I think we're redefining
everything. I think traditionally the way
I've been raised or taught or condition is a, a, a real man
provides for his family, a real man protects the real man's
worth is really defined by his productivity.
And I think the, you know, the society we're living in right
(20:36):
now, all of those things are being thrown upside down with
gender roles changing, with the disruption of the economy or
economic uncertainty, a lot of the tenants of what to find a
man this current age is like it's breaking it down.
And I always say, you know, every other Thursday, I have the
the extreme honor and privilege of Co facilitating a men's
(20:59):
circle in Altadena, Pasadena with men that lost their homes
in the fire. And this has been such a
profound awakening because everything I just shared about
what defines a real man. Well, if you lost your home and
your job was burnt down, so you can't provide and or protect,
are you a man? Right.
(21:20):
And to me, we're redefining it in real time.
I think, you know, race and gender are both social
constructs. So all this book is kind of
rooted in a father son relationship.
It's really about masculine, feminine energies.
Now we we both have those and depending on on what you believe
(21:43):
too, like this is we're enteringinto a different age to age of
Aquarius, age of feminine spiritrising, which makes sense.
Why all this really harmful, toxic ways of being in the
manosphere, if you will, are happening?
But what I've learned is we needto find new language and new
(22:07):
ways to call in rather than callout men.
And I feel the last few decades we haven't done a good enough
job as a society. And when I say this real man, if
you look at the statistics, right, this, this image of what
we're supposed to be that is unattainable in this current
(22:28):
environment, I would argue is why the rates of suicide,
depression, loneliness for men are as high as they've ever
been. And for me, this book journey
is, yes, highlighting that because this is something that
needs to be addressed, but also highlighting the men of the
men's circle, highlighting that man I just shared who was 61 and
(22:50):
had the courage to break down infront of me and release what he
was holding in. Because when we don't release,
that's when our bodies start to break down, but that's when we
start acting on unhealthy, harmful ways to self and others.
And there's a lot of incredible work happening around the
country. That's the one thing I know for
sure, but we don't have access to it or know about it.
(23:12):
And when we don't know that, then that's what makes too many
men feel like we're the only onethat feels a particular way.
And that's how capitalism or patriarchy feeds off of the
isolation. And the more that can create
community and share these kind of sacred stories, that's such a
profound way to help heal families and generations.
(23:34):
And so that last part that I shared, that to me is the
redefining a manhood in real time and men that are able to be
in those kind of circles or those spaces they leave
transformed and also able to rely on others for their
well-being. And I also think, and I've been
thinking a lot about this lately, when particularly for
(23:57):
men, this happens for women too,when you're a child and your
needs are not met. And in the case of boys, little
young toddlers being told not tocry, to toughen up, you know,
not getting picked up and held. Or perhaps the father is telling
the mother or the other caregiver, don't pick him up,
let him cry it outlet him, whatever it raises, it teaches
(24:19):
that child that their needs are not met, won't be met.
And so as they grow up and become men.
And I witnessed this in my own relationship with my husband,
who's going to soon be an ex-husband there.
And I've tried to talk to him a lot about this, but it's there's
it's another reason why I thought I'd say to him, you need
to read this book. When I'm done, you're really
(24:40):
going to give you this book. It's you're going to learn so
much from it. It's going to be great for you.
But I really, I could see in himand in other men that there's a
reliance on the partner in the relationship to, to needle their
meats, to do all of those thingsso that they can go out into the
world. And in quotes again, be the man,
be the one who's all this stuff because they come home and
(25:02):
there's an expectation of, oh, someone else is going to see or
he or whoever's taking going to just take care of all these
other things that I don't have to think about.
So I wonder ahead, in your experience, with your own
personal experience and with what you're now sharing and
teaching, have you thought abouthow when boys are being raised,
how perhaps if their needs aren't met, that that might, you
(25:25):
know, affect them growing up? Well, absolutely, for sure.
And I think a lot of what's connected to that is that we, we
do not do cultural rites of passages or initiation like we
used to do. And so, you know, the initiation
phase for a lot of young men nowis, is the video game or you
(25:47):
know what I'm saying, like the, the, the social media or what,
what have you there are these, these worlds that to them are
real. So I'm not downplaying it, but
we used to have very particular ways of of guiding young boys in
particular through adolescence to adulthood, to eldership.
(26:09):
And in that process, though, yourecognize needs to your point of
needs. And I think right now it's
compounded because the expectation that we're supposed
to provide so much that, you know, arguably could say most
people in the United States, their needs are not being met
like period, regardless of background.
(26:32):
But then when you Add all these layers of what you're expected
to provide and, you know, we, we, we too many of us
unfortunately take out our pain of unmet needs on those closest
to us. And we don't have the vocabulary
or the understanding like, no, what do you?
That's not how shared parenting or shared relation is supposed
(26:58):
to be, you know, and there's again, there's not outlets for
that, that release and that thatthat belonging, that sense of
belonging and coming together, you know, and you know, the
truth is, if you look at when you're a young man and who you
look up to as your role models, right?
And oftentimes people looked up to whether rock stars or
(27:20):
presidents and right now folks that are taking up a lot of
airtime is the current presidentand current like billionaires
that again, 99% of folks aren't going to reach that place.
And it's clouded in this, this lie, if you will.
(27:41):
And folks that aren't don't takeaccountability or are held
accountable for what they do, right?
And so again, like, if that's the the image and you need to
hold on to something for your own sanity, that's what I think
that's the breakdown right now. Because then what ends up
happening, like what you're sharing is like, we have a
(28:03):
breakdown of the relationships that matter the most to us.
And it often times starts with our own relationship with
ourself. Our relationship with self
breaks down. And of course, it makes sense,
the relationship with everyone else around us.
And and that's where I think forme, the biggest awakening is
like, how am I going to learn tolove my partner or love someone
(28:24):
else if I don't even love myselfbecause my needs weren't met as
a child or my needs aren't even being met now?
Or like you said, like I learnedearly on, my needs won't be met.
So therefore, why should I give someone else what they're asking
because mine aren't going to be met.
You know, it's like this downward spiral.
And that's where I found circlesbeen so profound because this
(28:47):
isn't unique to me or you. It's like normal, but it's,
it's, it's taboo to talk about it circle with men and they can
hear from someone that's gone through a painful divorce or
someone that's going through a painful traumatic experience and
see yourself in that like you're, you're learning, you
(29:10):
know, 'cause at the end of the day, we are all hardwired for
connection. We all want to belong.
We all want the sense of love, whether or not we articulate or
verbalize it, like from infancy to now, right.
And so that's the big that's like the most transforming
moments I've seen is having those really raw, honest, non
(29:31):
judgmental conversations with other men about like, I'm, I'm
messed up here and I'm I'm ashamed to admit it and I'm
ashamed to take accountability. So then I don't and then things
breakdown. How did you do it?
Oh, I lost. I'm on my second, third wife and
I'll tell you, learn from me like how to do it all over
(29:54):
again. Yeah, like, but we don't have
those those spaces as much. You know, and of course, you
also share in your book what's being promoted in society.
You talk about when you took your son to the WrestleMania
event and what that what that experience was like for him.
And then you realized that you did not realize you were already
(30:14):
aware of this. But just talk a little bit about
that moment for you. And in that environment, were
there also a lot of women at theWWE?
Like, I mean, I'm sure there are.
We've never been taught. Yeah, there was a there was a
lot of women, ironically, the, Ithink the the average age or
people my age, you know, bringing their children, which
(30:37):
was like this could be considered a rite of passage,
right? In this environment.
That was some of the most aggressive.
Well, it's all about showing offthe man, like right, the
physique, the strength, the this, the that.
Like I'm such a macho thinking of jump off the side and squash
another man. Yes, yes, and yes, 100%.
(31:00):
And it was some of the most homoerotic, tender moments you
see of two men, my favorite wrestler coming down in
literally all pink dominatrix. But because he's going to do all
that very like chop off the top of a cage and body slam you,
then it it, it, it affirms it's OK that he's so flamboyant, for
(31:24):
example, right? Or it's it's socially acceptable
in that same space where you're literally beating each other,
but then at the end you can embrace naked by the way you're
only wearing like. Those little pants undies.
And and embrace and the crowd goes crazy and some of this is
(31:46):
like immortal, you know what I'msaying?
Because like, it's OK. Like, you know, like and that's
where we don't talk enough aboutthe other part that and part.
It was sweet. Sorry to interrupt you, but it
was sweet how you talked about your son getting emotional Dad,
the other dad that was there. And, and it also reminded me,
(32:08):
reminded me a little bit of the ancient Greek, the original
Olympics when they were the original wrestlers, right.
Us exactly, yeah. And that's why I think we are
changing as much as like the media wants to manipulate us
with algorithms or what have youthat oh, things, things don't
(32:29):
get me wrong, we have a lot of work to do.
However, that example of me looking over and seeing another
man embracing his son when my dad taking me maybe would have
gave me a pat on the back. We're just not even knowing what
to do. That shows progress because we
didn't tell our kids stop crying.
(32:50):
We just held them and we were meeting that need that we're
talking about. And that's what I'm kind of
getting at. I think the more that men can be
in space with each other, the more we can call in men, the
more that we can be better fathers and partners like.
Then the unmet need of us as children will be met in real
time. So I was meeting my needs as a
(33:13):
child while I was providing my son with what he needed in that
moment. Yeah.
That's and then seeing someone else like, God, that was
amazing, you know? Yeah, because it wasn't
isolated. And then we both kind of looked
at each other. I, I, I mentioned this book
like, I lock eyes with the otherfather and we just nod.
(33:33):
Just nod. But not in like, thank you and
assurance and we're doing the right thing.
You don't have to be embarrassed.
Yeah, that's cool. And do you mind just sharing
because some people might be wondering why was your son?
Why were the boys crying at? At a wrestling.
Oh, yeah, yeah. They were crying because my
son's favorite wrestler at the time was Cody Rhodes, and he was
trying to win the Ultimate Heavyweight Championship belt.
(33:57):
And it was a storyline that had been years in the making.
He was a legendary. He was the son of a legendary
wrestler. So everybody thought this guy
was going to win that WrestleMania and he had a shirt
on and this epic battle. And obviously him and the other
young, young childhood that was their favorite wrestler, and he
ends up losing. So that's how my son was crying
(34:19):
because his wrestler they came to see when the championship
lost and unbeknownst to me, I didn't know how deeply invested
he was in the outcome till I looked over and noticed he was
crying. That's really sweet.
Yeah. So then, what does the Divine
Feminine mean to you? Yeah, You know, I think the
(34:39):
divine feminine for me, there isno feminine without the
masculine. So divine feminine for me is
really tapping into the full spectrum of all the emotions
that we have. Robert Bly has this book and he
talks about how we have bifurcated the feminine and
(35:01):
masculine the same way we bifurcate genders.
We were saying we talk about Mother Earth and Father Sky, for
example, but certain Celtic traditions and other traditions,
it's other, it's also Mother Skyand Father Earth.
And when I read that, I was like, wow, that that's true.
You know, So me the divine feminine, though, is embracing
(35:24):
all the spectrum, but also really redefining this idea that
vulnerability is strength and also redefining manhood as
tenderness as the ability to release, because we often times
think releasing is a feminine quality.
And to me, I'm trying to just weave because, you know, life is
(35:44):
just weaving and circles. And so that to me is, is how I'm
trying to really focus in embracing the divine feminine
within me. And the biggest example that
would be it's been very difficult for me to cry in
public. And before the tour started, I
would have moments like when I first saw the book, for example,
(36:07):
and my wife was filming me and it's just about to break.
And the little voice in me was like, don't bro, you're you're
on camera, you better stop. So I stopped and this tour has
taught me how to not stop, to let it go all the way through.
And it doesn't. It's not manufacturer, it's not
something that I like plan, but like 2 out of three times when
(36:30):
I'm reading an excerpt from the book at a book talk,
specifically if it's a chapter where it's an e-mail or letter
from my dad, I can't, I can't, Ican't control it.
And I've realized that that is the powerful part of the
feminine in me that's allowing other men to also embrace their
(36:51):
own divine feminine. And all of us feel so much
lighter when that happens, because that allows permission
to the other man to also shed tears, you know?
Yeah, to be vulnerable and to really share and show that,
yeah, you're in a safe place, it's OK.
You're you're into your feelingsand that's that's a memory that
you're being reminded of the love you had for your dad.
(37:13):
And that some of those letters in the book are really the
emails that he the exchange. That's the only time really he
could say I love you in a lot ofin the right.
Like that was he couldn't actually ever said out of his
mouth. So I mean, this is obviously
sacred about lessons, teaching my father how to love.
Do do you feel like you that youtaught him how to love?
(37:34):
I believe this whole journey of writing the book has allowed
both my father myself to learn how to express verbally the
words I love you because when you said that that in those
emails he says love you mijo. For example, when I say that out
loud, it's as if he's saying it.So he and he is, that's the
(37:58):
that's the irony of this whole beautiful dance relationship
with our ancestors is I'm reading his words to me out
loud. So therefore he is telling me
out loud. And I strongly believe that I'm
healing for myself, my son and my father at the same time and
my grandfather. They say in our cultural
traditions that we're not only healing for self, but for past
(38:19):
ancestors and future ancestors. And I truly believe that.
So we are teaching each other how to love and how to express
it in real time. So.
And what about your brother? Has he read your book and does
he feel the same way? Yeah, he has.
You know, this book has brought my brother and I closer than
(38:39):
we've been our whole lives. Before I turned into finding
manuscripts, One of the things Iwas most looking forward to and
most not looking forward to was reading my my brother's chapter
to him because I wanted him to share his thoughts before I
turned it in. And I remember going to his
house. I drank every bottle of alcohol
(39:00):
I could find really. And we went his backyard.
We lit a fire and I read, I reada couple other like other
chapters to like warm up to his and I'm we're reading this and
we're crying. And then finally I said, now I
want to read your chapter. So I read his chapter to him and
we just embraced in our tears. And I'll never forget the next
(39:22):
day the way this chapter ends, the saying the Wildman chapter
referring to that text he sent me.
No matter what happens, we'll beOK because we have each other.
Those are words my inner child wanted to hear my whole life,
and I'm sure his wanted to, but he checked me because he's like,
you know, I'm more I'm more thanthen the chapter I read to him
(39:45):
that night and when he said thatI was like, you're right, like
we are both the St. and the Wildman and there's aspects of
all of that and we have to love and embrace all of that and
company. The realization that more than
any other person on this planet,my brother reflects me and I
reflect him more than anyone else is so deep because that's
(40:07):
that's a product of the love of our parents, but also the
product of our love of each other.
And that's one of my favorite chapters because it happened in
real time, like our healing and and deepening of our
relationship was teased out through the writing of the book,
but in particular that chapter. And so now we call each other
more and I don't have to get wasted off the alcohol or
(40:29):
whatever to say, hey, I love youbro.
I love you too. And that's like the full circle.
And that's where it's like my father does know how to love now
because look, his children are are modeling that for him and
our own children. That's really beautiful.
And are you sharing that story when with, with the men's
circles or how are you, how are you teaching them?
(40:52):
Or perhaps because you talk about teachable moments too in
your book, guiding men to tap into their feminine sides,
especially when they, you know, this, this culture we live in
where it's you're considered, you know, not a man or whatever
your masculinity is more important.
How do you how do you teach men to really tune into that side so
they can the softness of the heart, really?
(41:13):
Well I have to give a lot of love and gratitude and
appreciation to Yancey Cummings who is a Co facilitator.
He is Co founder of an amazing organization called Hands in the
Soil in Pasadena, Los Angeles area.
And one of the things I've really learned the most from
Yancey is so much of the pain and trauma that we stores in our
(41:33):
bodies. All the isms are are are body
base like we hold on to the pain.
And so he has taught me how important it is to breathe, but
also to release like physically.And so we invite men into the
sacred circle, racial matter practice, but also just, you
(41:55):
know, we're not therapists. So I statements non judgement,
non shame and letting people just have the space to share.
And what I realized in just thatsimple act, it transcends
gender, but also is the full embracing of all the energies
that we're talking about, both the masculine and the feminine.
And for me, I'll, I'll name it like, I'll, I'll share things
(42:17):
that are really personal to me as a way to model the safety of
the, of the space, but also the need for me to do that because
in doing so allows other people permission if they choose to
also share something. And in that sharing, like I
said, we find the medicine in the story and we find community
(42:38):
because we're not alone. And the proof that it works is
the fact that consistently consistent 13 to 20 men are
coming every other Thursday. And you know, we scale because
it's different men, but it's always this magical number
there. But those men are all part of
families. So it's like we're impacting not
just a person. We're not impacting their
(43:00):
children, their their partners, their families.
And it's been beautiful witness even them making lifelong
connections and relationships with each other, like hanging
out outside of the circle, for example, you know, so and then
Yancey's just masterful. I just got to put it out there.
Like he will do these exercises that really push us to
deconstruct what we've been taught.
(43:21):
Like everything from touch, you know, we ask permission, but
even just touching a man's like leg in a circle, like what get,
you know, like deep things or looking at someone in the eye.
Like we don't do some of this stuff because fear that we've
been taught or whatever, but we break down all those things in
the sacredness of the circle. And that allows you just to be
(43:45):
more accepting of who you are and all your identities.
Very empowering, I can imagine for a lot of men and and you're
right, it's like super transformatives and and it
affects the whole everybody in their lives gets to benefit from
that healing work and everybody in their bloodline gets to it
benefit as well. Yeah.
So you have these other chaptersthat are really beautiful.
(44:07):
The wisdom of children. Yeah.
What have you learned from children?
So much, you know, they say thatchildren choose their parents,
at least that's what I believe. And they also say that children
have a special bonded connectionwith elders because one is
entering from the spirit world and 1 is going into the spirit
world. And I can say that my children
(44:29):
have definitely no, what parts of me have to work on still what
you know, we call them what buttons they push, so they push
them because that's what they'resupposed to do for me to evolve.
My children have definitely taught me like my daughter, like
I said, patience or, or just howto be a better person.
But also I've, I've seen my father was able to be
(44:51):
emotionally expressive, verballyexpressive only with his
grandchildren, even more so thanhis own wife.
To my mom. He was just so loving, like
hugging, kissing them, jump around, holding their hands,
like in it. It reminded me that every
person, regardless of age or identity, that's what they
(45:12):
really want. They want that.
But it's for him. It was only socially acceptable
for him to do that because it's socially acceptable for
grandparents to be affectionate with their grandchildren.
And my brother and I, we would watch this and you'd be like,
you know, 30 is fine. I want that right now like.
What's heck? What's going on?
Hold. On like, obviously you're
(45:32):
capable of doing it and you loveto do it and want to do it.
And so that's, that's the wisdomI've learned from children is
the same I've learned from elders.
It's like, you know, the, the children come in with such ache
and come in with such gifts and talents.
And that's why I say I want to remember.
I never want to lose a inner child in me because that inner
(45:53):
child's holding that flame that I was brought into this world to
do. And I feel like the elders,
because they're going into spirit world, they recognize the
flame in the child, but also theflame in them that may be burnt
out or maybe it's still still like flickering.
But they want to make sure to love up on that child so they
can continue that journey and that message that they were
(46:14):
brought here to do with their purpose.
That's right. You know, when, when my kids
were little, my son's now 21 andmy daughter's 16.
And when they were toddlers and they're first starting to show
you what they're guided, what they're gravitating towards.
And my husband would say was trying to influence our son in
particular to do other things, things that he that he was
really into. And I would always say let him
(46:35):
be. He's showing us that that's not
his thing. He's show.
He's literally showing you his ball.
Like, you know, maybe he's not like he's not supposed to be
playing soccer. That's not his thing.
Football, you know, it's go up in a full Italian household.
That's what it what it was and you're into or you know, doesn't
mean that's his thing. And he's very musical.
I said just let him express likelet him just we, you don't force
(46:59):
because then we're going to lose.
He'll lose that or to get suppressed and maybe not come
out to later in life because he's doing what he thinks he
should do for you. So it's, it is really important
that we embrace our children andwitness them as their own
individuals so we can just see who are you?
And then that's where they, for me anyway, the lessons of being
(47:19):
'cause I'm like, and then they show you, like you said.
And we don't teach that in schools.
We don't teach, you know, in schools also say you must do
this. You've got to be a
mathematician, you have to do science, you can't be creative.
And that's really sad. We lose so much in that.
I think one of the biggest sacred lessons of children in in
life is we don't control anything.
(47:40):
And that's where I think the breakdown in masculinity is
happening 'cause we don't have control over anything.
And that's the power of death orgrief is it reminds you really
quickly that we can't control that.
The only constant is change. It is impermeance, right?
And that's a hard thing to graspin the West, in the West in
(48:01):
particular. Yeah, we just don't teach that.
And we we don't teach how to tune into our innate gifts.
Yeah. So in your chapter on faith,
yeah, what is faith? Great question.
The the eternal question for me,faith is, is having a deep
belief in something bigger than myself and bigger than us, and
(48:23):
then knowing that I am connectedto whatever that is and that
there if I can tap into that faith that I will always be OK.
Back to this question of control.
My faith knows that I can't control the outcome, but I know
I will be OK. And the faith is, you know, it's
(48:47):
been my driving compass to be risk taking to know I can jump
and the net will appear because I know something will catch me.
And it may not, may not be what I think.
Like I think that's how you how we even started the
conversation. Like in the writing process we
were talking about like we may have the whole like outline and
(49:09):
idea, but I have faith that whatever's supposed to happen is
going to happen. And it may look completely
different than what I thought inthe beginning, but I know I'll
be a better person of it and I'll grow from that.
And so I find extreme amount of direction for my spirituality
that's rooted in a deep faith insomething that connects us all
and that's bigger than any one person.
(49:31):
Yeah. Is it the same as trust?
I think so. I think my faith in humanity is
based on the trust that if we truly love each other, then we
can heal the child that's been wounded.
I have. I have trust in humanity,
despite what may be happening inour society right now, because I
(49:53):
have faith that we are, we are good.
And so how can people find out about you?
And are you, where are your circles?
You're only doing them with yourbook tour or are they in
California? Can they be?
Are they online? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, well, if you go to sacredlessons.com, it has the
book tour schedule. I'd say one out of every two
(50:13):
book talks that I do. There's a healing circle every
other Thursday. We do them in Los Angeles.
You can go to dinaheels.com for that, and then you can follow me
online at Mr. Mike de la Rocha, MRMIKEDELARCHA, Mr. Mike de la
Rocha. And that's kind of where I'll
share a lot of things as well. Yeah, like I look forward to
(50:36):
being on as many wonderful conversations and circles with
anyone and everyone that I can meet in this this lifetime.
So. Yeah, amazing.
Doing such great work in the world and awesome.
What a gift for to men, right? And to your son and also your
daughter, but your brother and all the men in your life and all
the other men who are really struggling with needing to
(50:58):
connect with the truth of who they are.
Correct. Coming home to ourselves so
thank you so much for the opportunity to speak with you
and all that you do and all the energy that you put out into the
world I know we need more of this and so I just thank you
from the bottom of my heart for for being a vessel for these
kind of important exchanges so thank you you're.
(51:20):
Welcome. Thank you.
Thank you so much.
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