August 19, 2024 • 42 mins
Discover the remarkable journeys of Ben Nichols, a former Marine Corps officer, and Court Sawyer, a retired Master Chief from the Navy Seabees, as they transition from distinguished military careers to impactful roles in the construction industry. Gain insights into Court's extensive 27-year career in the Navy, including his deployments and pivotal positions at the Naval Academy and NAVFAC headquarters. Ben shares his story as a Marine combat engineer deeply influenced by a legacy of service, with deployments to Afghanistan, and their shared experiences at NMCB 5.
Uncover the key elements that facilitated their successful switch from military service to thriving careers in commercial construction. Listen to Ben’s narrative of his career evolution post-2013, from working with a small contractor to leading the federal contracting division at Harkins, eventually becoming CEO. The episode highlights the crucial role of mentorship, the Skillbridge program, and the alignment between military skills and construction demands, emphasizing the significance of operational experience and continuous improvement in this journey.
Join us as we address the pressing issue of veterans' mental health and career transitions. Ben and Court stress the importance of seeking help, leveraging VA resources, and maintaining a balanced life. They share practical strategies for managing mental well-being and discuss the value of peer support on job sites. Explore opportunities for veterans in construction through programs like Skill Bridge and the power of networking on LinkedIn. This heartfelt episode celebrates the resilience, camaraderie, and mutual respect within the veteran community in the construction industry.
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If you're a military veteran in the construction industry, or you're in the construction industry and support our military vets, and you'd like to be a guest on the podcast you can find me at constructionvetpodcast@gmail.com , or send me a message on LinkedIn. You can find me there at Scott Friend. Let's share the stories and motivate others!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Getting into construction and feeling that
same team environment and thatsame ability to think about
people and solve problemstogether is clearly right away
knew that this would be thecareer for me.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
This is the Construction Veteran Podcast
Construction.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Veteran Podcast Connecting and celebrating
veterans in construction.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Now here's your host, scott Friend.
Welcome back to a uniqueepisode of the Construction
Veteran Podcast.
I'm Scott Friend.
We've got two people on thisepisode Ben Nichols, a former
Marine Corps officer, and CourtSawyer, a retired Master Chief
from the Navy Seabees.
Let's dig into it.
Hired Master Chief from theNavy Seabees, let's dig into it.
(00:44):
Ben Nichols and Court Sawyer,how are you guys?
Speaker 3 (00:50):
What's going on, Scott?
Good to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
This is a first for the construction veteran, so
I've never had two people on itonce.
So this is going to be fun.
I hope everybody's ready forthe ride.
So bear with me on this, youguys too.
So Ben and I were actually thefirst to get introduced through
a previous guest of mine, angieMartinez.
(01:18):
She's awesome, so shout out toAngie.
And Court just happens to be afellow CB that's working with
Ben and previously worked in theservice together, so we'll get
into that here in a little bit.
But, court, I want to startwith you, man, where are you
from and what's your servicebackground?
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Yeah, so I grew up in the heartland, so just outside
of St Louis Missouri, joined theNavy in July of 1994.
So a really long time ago.
I'm kind of dating myself now.
Spent 27 years in the NavySeabees, so as a.
Spent 27 years, uh, in the navycbs, so as a builder, best rate
in the navy um darn right yeah,so uh.
(01:51):
So started out uh, you knowseveral deployments, obviously
you know um.
And then uh ended my career asuh, the total force enlisted
advocate, uh, working with forcemaster chief uh at the time
force Force Master Chief Trent,and then it changed over to
Force Master Chief DelbertTerrell.
So it was great times, you know, really enjoy it.
(02:13):
Couldn't ask for a bettercareer.
And then Ben and I actuallyended up serving together during
one of my times in NMCB 5.
I had to think there for asecond.
There's been a couple ofbattalions in my career.
So he was my company officer,met up with him in Spain after a
year-long stint in Afghanistan,linked up with him and we did
(02:38):
that deployment together, wentback to Homeport and then both
got transferred to theoperations department and did
another deployment to the FarEast, so down to Okinawa, where
we had some opportunities totake some troops out and do some
of the Balacatan mission, whichwas kind of cool.
I'll let Ben touch on that.
But yeah, then Ben transferredout.
(03:01):
I got transferred to the NavalAcademy, which is where Ben and
I were able to stay connected,because he ended up back here in
Maryland as well, so got anopportunity to work at the
United States Naval Academy as asenior enlisted leader and then
ultimately, like I said, endedmy career at NAVFAC headquarters
in DC, decided to get out at 27years because my wife was tired
(03:22):
of moving around.
She wanted the kids to have anopportunity to graduate with the
friends they'd made.
So stuck it out here and itworked out for the best.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Man, that's cool.
Yeah, I'm ready to dive into alittle bit more of that.
So, ben, how about you?
Where are you from and what'syour service background?
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Well, I can't hold a candle to Court's career, making
it all the way to Master Chief.
I did a lowly five and a halfyears in the Marine Corps but my
dad was a Marine, his dad was aMarine and growing up in
Maryland I was just reallymotivated to attend the Naval
Academy.
My dad actually didn't want meto attend the Naval Academy
(04:00):
because he was a prior enlistedMarine Mustang and he had his
fair share of Naval Academygrads that he would call ring
knockers.
So he wasn't always in favor ofthat, but I think he came to be
pretty proud of it and had anawesome time at the Naval
Academy, got to be a four-yearvarsity wrestler there and
(04:23):
seemed like I was predestined tojoin the Marine Corps.
So upon graduation I went toTBS, really wanted to be a
tracker, an amphibious assaultvehicle officer, and then I
really got blessed with mysecond choice at the end of the
basic school, which is asix-month course in Quantico,
(04:44):
virginia, where they gave me themilitary occupational specialty
of a combat engineer, which wasan absolute blast.
So my first duty station waswith a combat engineer company
out of Okinawa, japan, and gotto be a platoon commander of 44
Marines.
When I first got there, I knewwe were going to Afghanistan, so
(05:06):
I got a pretty fresh platoon,had a bunch of awesome sergeants
and an awesome gunnery sergeantto work with and we did about a
six-month workup and then endedup deploying with 2nd Battalion
9th Marines to Marjah,afghanistan, in 2010, which was
(05:31):
just a couple months after theinvasion of Marjah during the
surge of troops, duringPresident Obama's surge of
troops there.
And then, while in Afghanistan,probably towards the end of
that deployment, it was time topick a new duty station and I
remember the monitor at the timeemailing me the list of
potential assignments and, kindof scrolling through the list,
(05:52):
port Hueneme which I could notsay at the time because I had no
idea how to say it correctlykind of struck my eye.
I looked it up and it was rightin between Santa Barbara and
Malibu and I said you know what?
I think that spot's for me andkind of put my name in the hat
for that, not knowing anythingabout the Seabees and ended up
(06:13):
at NMCB 5 as a personnelexchange program officer and had
an awesome experience for threeyears serving with NMCB 5 and
got to work with a bunch offantastic CVs deployed to Rota,
spain, and back to Okinawa.
Japan did a detachment with Cortto the Philippines where we got
(06:34):
to build a footbridge to helpthe local population there
access their farm fields duringthe rainy season, when they
previously had to walk miles toget to the next bridge.
So just a really, really coolexperience being with the CVs
and learning real constructionOn the combat engineer side in
(06:55):
the Marine Corps.
It was all close combatinfantry engineering, support,
maybe building a small FOB for asquad of Marines to operate out
of looking for IEDs to allowour forces to be mobile, and
then the Seabees got to learnabout what real construction is
all about.
So that's the background on myservice how to blast and
(07:20):
wouldn't have changed anythingabout it and got to work with a
bunch of awesome leaders likeCorp.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Yeah, that's awesome.
Yeah, the Marines blow it up,cbs build it up right.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
That's about right.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
So I mean, you have a pretty unique perspective.
Obviously, serving with the CBs, it's always fun.
When I run into somebody thatserved in the Marine Corps I'd
say, oh, I was Navy.
Oh okay, Okay, I was a CB.
Oh man, I love you guys.
So it's really neat to get thatrespect from other branches and
so you were embedded in that.
I thought that was neat.
So, not knowing much about theCBs, I mean so you didn't really
(07:51):
know what you were getting intowhen you had that the orders in
front of you going to PortHueneme.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Not at all.
I really I really didn't.
Outside of Googling what a CBwas and understanding it a
little bit better, um, um, Iremember when I first rolled
into port oneimi on the veryfirst day I'm coming right out
of afghanistan, maybe you know amonth ago and um, I rolled into
port oneimi and they were doinga field exercise in the park,
in the battalion headquartersparking lot, they had one roller
concertina wire out and theyhad, uh, wooden cut of M16s and
I was like, oh my goodness, whatdid I get myself into?
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Yeah, so, court, when you went to enlist, did you
know much about the Seabees.
Was that your first choice, orwhat was your original plan?
Speaker 3 (08:38):
No.
So I'll tell you.
So, growing up I was a prettycompetitive swimmer and I wanted
to go to college and be aswimmer.
And my dad did a stint in theNavy as a boiler tech.
And I remember my senior yearin high school.
I told him he was like, whatare you going to do?
And I said I'm going to go tocollege.
(08:59):
He said you're not going to goto college and drink and party
and blow my money.
You're going to at least listento what Navy recruiters have to
say.
And you know, being a smartaleck teenage kid, I told him.
I said, hey, I'll listen towhat a recruiter has to say, but
if I'm going to join theservice, it'll be the Navy.
You know, to follow in yourfootsteps.
And I thought that I devisedthis great plan of I'll tell
(09:21):
them that I'm really intowoodworking and they don't build
wooden ships anymore, so Iwon't have to join the Navy and
I can go to college.
And uh, lo and behold, myrecruiter was a BU one.
Uh, so, uh, the second I satdown across from him and I said
hey, you know, I'm really intowoodworking.
I took woodshop in high schooland that's kind of the path I
(09:42):
want to go down.
He was like I got a job for you.
And I was like, oh man, so,being a man of my word, which my
dad brought me up to be said,I'll try this out for four years
, well, realizing that it has tobe a minimum of five, said, ok,
five years can't be that bad,and then I'll go to college.
And then the rest was kind ofhistory, you know.
After five years, I was like,oh, this isn't bad, you know, I
(10:03):
don't really know what I want todo in life, so I'll stick it
out.
And then, at the end, of nineyears I was like, man, I'm kind
of good at this, so I guess I'lljust stick it out and keep
going.
I think once I hit 20 years, mywife was like hey, are we done
yet?
And then, finally, at 27, yearsI was like okay, you can have
your time now.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Yeah, yeah, quite an impressive career.
It sounds like I mean knowingwhat I know.
Now, looking back, I mean Idon't regret any decisions, but
I do wish I had stuck it out fora third enlistment.
I got to learn a little bitmore maybe go to C school,
something like that so I had tolearn the hard way, getting out
and learning everything.
But no, it's really neat.
I appreciate you guys sharingyour story, um, so this is a
(10:45):
question for either one of you,whichever wants to take it.
Uh, what do you guys do now?
So you both work for Harkinsbuilders.
Tell me what you guys do.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
All right, so so I'll go first.
So I run the warrantydepartment at Harkins builders.
So you know GP GC outfit thatuh, they came up with a great
idea, idea like let's start ourown personal warranty department
, which I thought was prettycool.
Ben and I sat down.
Uh, when I first got out of thenavy I was working as an intern
at a at another outfit and uh,doing the skill birds program,
(11:15):
and uh he was like, hey, Cord, Ithink this is the right fit for
you, You've got the personalityto build this department.
So came in and started thewarranty department from the
ground up, which we're two yearsin about two years in right now
and full steam on warranty.
So that's what I do.
It's not nearly as impressiveas what Ben has done at Harkins.
(11:35):
I will tell you that.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
That's kind of you, cord.
I'll give you a littlebackground on coming over to
Harkins.
When I left the Seabees I wasactually getting out of the
Marine Corps at that time, so Icame back to Maryland, where I'm
from, and ended up working fora small contractor actually
doing a lot of NAVFAC work.
So they were a small businessthat was on one of the NAVFAC
(11:58):
Washington small Macs and spentthree years there learning the
federal contracting game.
I remember the first day Ishowed up on a construction site
and they asked me to put thesubmittal register together and
I asked what's the submittal?
So I was like he was definitelydrinking from the fire hose
when it came to the constructionindustry and federal
(12:18):
contracting, the constructionindustry and federal contracting
.
But had a really greatexperience in that small
business and got to learn a tonabout construction and federal
contracting.
Ended up being introduced toHarkins after a number of years
over there and found out aboutthis 100% employee-owned
(12:39):
organization that's been aroundsince 1965, that's doing work
from Philadelphia down throughthe Carolinas, and they brought
me on board to lead theirfederal contracting division
really government contractingdivision so, whether it's
federal, state, county ormunicipal, county or municipal
(13:06):
and jumped at the opportunity tojoin the team and had an
awesome run of a number of yearsdoing government work at
Harkins, growing the team andbuilding some fun projects.
And they just happened to begoing through succession
planning after a couple of yearsthere and they ended up
throwing my name in the mix ofeight other folks at Harkins
that they were considering forfuture executive roles because
they knew they had their CEO andchief operating officer, who
(13:30):
were the number one and numbertwo gentlemen in the
organization getting ready toretire.
After three years of workingwith a consultant who put us
through a strategic plantogether as a group of nine and
put us in different elements atthe company.
At the end of that three yearsI'm super blessed that they
(13:50):
ended up picking me to succeedthe CEO.
So now I've been in thepresident role for a couple of
years and took over as CEO inJanuary this year couple of
years and took over as CEO inJanuary of this year.
But it's an awesome companywith an awesome culture and just
super humbled and blessed to beable to be doing what I'm doing
.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
That's awesome man.
What a good spot to be in too.
So you kind of like you saidyou were drinking from the fire
and you went.
What year did you separate fromthe Marine Corps?
Please remind me.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
I got out in 2013.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
So you had, I mean, from that point, just over 10
years going out basically notknowing much about the
commercial side of this industry, all the way up into running a
company.
So so, court, what?
What year did you separate?
2021, july?
Speaker 3 (14:35):
of 21.
Oh, wow, so that is.
Yeah, you mentioned Skillbridge, which was.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
July 21.
Oh wow, so that is three.
Yeah, you mentioned Skillbridge, which was it's a relatively
new program.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
I was the first person at NAVFAC to do it and I
think Admiral Corker was readyto kill me afterwards because
everybody else was like, hey,let's do that, as they were
separating.
He was losing people three tosix months early.
But yeah, what a great program.
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
And that it's based off your rank.
Is that correct?
So you can do three or sixmonths based off of your rank?
Speaker 3 (15:06):
So it has nothing to do with rank.
You can do three or six months.
Well, let me rephrase that.
They might've changed it by nowto where it's based off of rank
, but when I was doing it youcould do up to six months.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Um, there was no rank stipulation in it, you just had
to have commander's approval.
Oh, okay, gotcha.
So what a lot of people don'trealize is once you make that
rank of master chief in theSeabees, you basically combine a
bunch of rates so you had asignificant amount of knowledge,
not only on the carpentry side,but you already had other rates
that you get exposed to, evengoing up through the ranks.
I mean, I got to learn how toweld and do some plumbing and
(15:43):
electrical work, but so you hadthis trade knowledge.
But what was it that really gotyou into the commercial side of
the industry after you got out?
Speaker 3 (15:50):
So I think that, you know, I think it was a natural
transition as I was leaving thebees, you know, to be honest
with you, it's comfort zone,right, we worked construction
for all those years, easy totransition.
And then also the the fact that, uh, you know what brought me
to Maryland?
Uh, you know, kind of kind ofgoing backwards a little bit,
(16:11):
what was Ben?
Um, ben Nichols?
He, uh, we were in thePhilippines, in the jungle, and,
uh, I was looking for my nextduty assignment and he told me
that, hey, go to the NavalAcademy, that's the best spot
for a guy like you.
And then I got here and ourfriendship, you know, really
took off after he got out of theMarine Corps.
And so, through that mentorshipand guidance from him, the
mentorship and guidance fromsome other people within the
(16:32):
community, it just seemed like anatural transition to go into
the commercial side.
I thought that, you know, hey, Ihave something to offer.
I didn't truly know what it was, to be honest with you,
operationally, you know, at thelevel of what I left in CVs,
operationally, I thought that Ihad something there and I did
spend some time in doing theoperations role for the first
(16:56):
company that I went to work for.
But then, whenever Ben gave methis opportunity, it just it
seemed like it fit right.
You know, as a CV you're alwaysconstantly looking to improve
something.
You know that is kind ofingrained in us hey, how do you
make it better?
And given an opportunity tostart a new division within a
(17:16):
great organization like Harkins,it seemed like a natural fit.
And after talking to my wifeand everything that's what the
transition was is to go over toHarkins.
So it's again to answer yourquestion.
I think it was just a naturalthing.
I've been working constructionfor 27 years and, surrounded by
it in the CVs, it just feltright to go into that sector,
(17:38):
leaving yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
So what about you, ben?
What was it that really drewyou toward government
contracting, specifically?
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Yeah, I think when I was getting out I was looking at
different industries andthinking about what I thought I
could make the best lateraltransfer in, and for the fact
that I just spent three yearswith the Seabees and also being
a Marine Corps combat engineer.
It really led me to think aboutconstruction and I was really
(18:10):
lucky to really utilize theSeabee network and the first
company that I worked for wasthe operations was run by a CEC
officer.
It had been, you know, been inretired CEC officer, I think.
He was a kind of 80s and 90sCEC officer and then started a
(18:31):
construction gig and when I gotinto construction I realized I
made the perfect choice becauseall the things I loved about the
Marine Corps were right therein construction.
So I felt like when I hit theperfect choice, because all the
things I loved about the MarineCorps were right there in
construction.
So I felt like when I hit thejob site as a project manager, I
had a lead superintendent thatfelt just like a gunnery
(18:52):
sergeant or a chief pettyofficer that I was partnered
with and all the, all thedifferent trades on the job site
felt like my squad leaders.
So I just felt completely athome in that environment and all
the things that the MarineCorps teaches you like, servant
leadership, having a bias foraction, having decentralized
(19:14):
command, so you make decisionsat the lowest level possible to
allow the people in the frontlines to make faster and more
efficient decisions, whichenables a construction project
to go faster.
All that stuff is completelyand directly works in the
construction field as well as inthe Marine Corps, so I loved
(19:35):
every aspect of it.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
You know, I feel like almost every, every episode
somebody says something to thateffect that it just kind of felt
the same, regardless of whatbackground they came from in the
service.
It just kind of felt the samebeing with their team.
Ben and Eric, excuse me in yourrole.
How have you kind of carriedover the role of a command
master chief I mean, that's abig deal or master chief period,
(19:57):
uh, how have you kind ofcarried that role over into your
current role?
Speaker 3 (20:02):
So I I gotta tell you at Arkans it's been really easy
, uh, because it's an ESOPcompany, so the culture there is
great.
It it's kind of been seamless.
You know everybody always asksfor your input.
I think that you know thattitle of veteran when, when
people see it right there,there's a certain thing that
(20:22):
that's associated with it, right, uh, when, when people see it
right, there's a certain thingthat's associated with it, right
, when people see that you're aveteran, they oh, okay, that's a
person of action and someonewho is going to problem solve.
They're used to, you know,being in situations like this.
So I think that naturallypeople gravitate to us, which is
a great thing.
And those open lines ofcommunication again, you know
Hartman's being an ESOP, itmakes it easy.
(20:43):
Everybody's there to do theright thing.
The culture's great.
So as far as carrying over likethe role, I kind of try to shy
away from it.
I don't really brag to a lot ofpeople that I was a master
chief in the Navy.
It comes up quite a bitwhenever they read my profile or
something like that.
They're like, oh, you did thisand I'm like, yeah, but um, yeah
(21:04):
, I.
I think that the culture at thecompany is what really is, made
it easy as that transition.
Um, you know, having been thereas well, I try to actually shy
away from Ben as much aspossible because I don't want
people thinking that there's athat you know.
Everybody knows that.
We know each other from ourtime in the service, but I
really try to hone in on what myjob is at Harkins and perform
(21:26):
it out to serve all of theexecutives there.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
So yeah, very cool.
How was that transition?
And I'll give you a quick story.
When I'm up at, like maybe, aveteran career fair trying to
hire people, it's reallydifficult to look at a guy
that's an E eight, E nine, andsometimes they might not have a
lot of qualifications.
So, hey man, you might have tostart in an assistant type of
(21:50):
level.
How was that?
Um, not getting over the prideper se, but how were you able to
kind of humble yourself and gohey, well, you know, yeah, I had
a very fulfilling and longcareer, but I'm I'm kind of the
new guy now.
How was that adjustment?
Speaker 3 (22:03):
Yeah, I don't think there wasn't really one for me.
I hit the ground running atHarkins.
People would come over and askme something.
I'd be like, hey, I know, I'mthe new guy and I actually
started at Harkins at probablythe worst possible time the week
after Thanksgiving.
So the majority of the companywas either on vacation or going
on vacation.
So I was kind of left there tofigure it out.
(22:24):
I was kind of left there tofigure it out.
But yeah, I think that you know, I think a lot of you know the
senior enlisted people in themilitary.
They're pretty humble people andit's easy to you know.
Hey, you know I would take outthe trash if that's what was
asked of me.
I mean, it's not a big thing.
You know where you're comingfrom.
(22:44):
You know we were talking aboutthis today at lunch with some
some other coworkers and youknow one of the things about
military people is we're so usedto it when you transfer from
one duty station to the next, itdoesn't really matter what your
rank was, because you startback at the bottom Right.
You have to reprove yourselfevery single time you transfer
(23:04):
to get back into that top 10percent of the command to get
back into that top 10% of thecommand.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Cord is one of the best there is in terms of
emotional intelligence anddealing with people.
He's just as good with thebattalion commander as he is
with the brand new seaman that'shitting the battalion Cord.
Just knowing Cord's ability toknow and lead people of all
different shapes and sizes andthe way they think I knew Court
(23:35):
would be a home run in theindustry.
And to highlight Court'shumility, I'm sitting next to
one of his bronze stars that heearned while serving with the
SEALs in Afghanistan.
So he's had a pretty awesomecareer and done a lot of amazing
things, yet still as humble ashe could possibly be.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
So, Scott, I think again.
I think the mindset right and Ithink this of every veteran
right, you want to be operatingat that top 10%, and I use the
analogy of a foxhole, right, youcould be the best foxhole
digger that there is out thereand be the top 10%.
And I use the analogy of afoxhole, right, you can be the
best foxhole digger that thereis out there and be the top 10%
of the guys that can dig afoxhole, but as soon as the
foxhole is dug, you quickly goback down to the bottom right.
(24:17):
It's the only way you canmaintain the top 10% is to
constantly improve your fightingposition and be that guy, and I
think, as long as you approacheverything, that's a recipe for
success.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Very well said.
I appreciate that and Iappreciate your humility too.
Court, it goes a long way.
Thank you, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
So obviously we talked about how you guys ended
up on the path with your service?
Speaker 2 (24:37):
I guess a good question would be I mean Court,
I know you're still within thefive years of getting out, so,
ben, this question is really foryou.
I guess a good question wouldbe I mean Cord, I know you're
still within the five years ofgetting out, so, ben, this
question is really for you.
I guess.
What is it about this industrythat you thought, okay, this is
maybe not your promotions andwhatnot, but what was it that
(24:59):
made you think, okay, this iswhat I'm going to do for the
rest of my life, this is whatI'm going to retire out of.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
I just love the people.
It had the elements that Iloved about the Marine Corps
working with a team and leadingpeople that are outside doing
something hard and it gave anopportunity to lean into being a
servant leader, which is theright way to be an officer in
the military or really the rightway to be a leader in anything
that you're doing and loveworking with my senior enlisted
partners or the superintendentand the foreman, so it's just
(25:36):
getting into construction andfeeling that same team
environment and that sameability to think about people
and solve problems together isclearly right away.
Knew that this would be thecareer for me.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Yeah, and Court, I guess a way I would ask you that
question.
When you retired out after allthat time, what is it that made
you just say, hey, you canretire basically comfortably,
and if you really wanted to livea humble life you could.
But what is it that drove youto say I want to keep working, I
want to keep doing this somehow, some way, some shape or form
in the construction industry.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
My wife no, you got to edit that.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
You got to afford the boat somehow, man.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
No, you know, Ben and I actually have this
conversation all the time.
You know I'm not doing it forthe money.
Yeah, I think it think it goesback to the camaraderie thing.
Right, that's the number onething you miss when you get out
of the military, in my opinion,is the camaraderie, and this
industry really offers it.
It really does.
Everybody's there for the samecommon goal to get the job done
(26:43):
and move on to the next thing.
So, yeah, I think that it was anatural transition for me and I
enjoy working we talk all thetime about.
I think it's natural.
I just I have to do something.
Ben and I were talking rightbefore we jumped on the podcast
and I said work ethic is a bigthing for me and I focus all my
time and energy and quality oflife to me is about work.
(27:08):
And he was like I said so.
So when I eventually do retire,when my wife says I can, um, I
don't have to do this anymoreand he's like, no, you'll.
You're the kind of guy that'llfind something else and you'll
devote all your time to to thenext project, and and he's he's
right, I probably will.
Yeah, I think that's why thecamaraderie is is where it is.
I think that whenever I am donethough, that's probably going
to be the hardest day of my lifeyeah.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
But it'll just be another transition, because I
really feel like there is nofinish line.
So there's not this magicalfinish line where you retire and
you let go.
Yeah, you got to have.
That's what makes life fun isbeing passionate about something
and putting your work intosomething, and I imagine
whenever you retire, you'll findsome passionate thing to be
(27:51):
involved with whether it's anonprofit or whatever it might
be, but I think that's what lifeis all about building
relationships and working hardand accomplishing goals.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
For sure, yeah, no, I agree.
Now, this is a loaded question,but if you were to have to
narrow down to a couple things,what do you think would have
been the biggest takeaway fromyour time in the service that's
helped you?
Speaker 1 (28:15):
uh, both of you guys succeed in what you're doing
today a couple of times, is justlearning to be a servant leader
.
Because as a leader, if you canbe there rolling up your
sleeves with the people thatyou're leading and helping them
(28:35):
knock down obstacles and gettingto know them as people, and I
think if you take that mentalityanywhere, it's going to be
successful.
And then learning how to bedecisive it might be another one
.
I think the military does areally good job of teaching you
that if you wait to make theperfect plan, it'll be too late.
(29:00):
So you got it you have to planand maybe you make a 75% plan
and execute that plan asviolently as you possibly can.
That gives you way more successthan executing the perfect plan
too late.
So I think maybe those twothings are probably the most
important things that learned inthe military.
Speaker 3 (29:19):
Man, I'm going to sound like a real junior troop
right now and say that Ben justknocked that out of the park, so
I don't know what to add.
But that's actually the perfectanswer.
Yeah, I don't even know whereyou would expand on that.
I think that you know, in themilitary we're taught to be
critical thinkers and and alwaysthink you know five, 10 steps
ahead, and that that was onething that I think truly
(29:41):
benefited me coming out of themilitary.
And the work ethic right.
I think that the work ethicthat is instilling you during
service is a huge asset that youbring to the table in the
civilian sector.
I think it's hard for a lot ofpeople to understand it
sometimes, but yeah, I thinkit's definitely one of the
(30:01):
biggest assets that we bring tothe table is, you know, our
ability to never give up.
You know never say die.
You know, hey, stick the never,never give up.
Uh, you know never say die.
You know a stick it out untilit's done and done right.
You know it doesn't matter howmany times we have to do it.
Uh, I think those are probablythe things that I would add to
that, but other than that, again, I sound like a real junior
(30:22):
troop right now.
Thanks, ben.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Oh no, I mean, there's there's really no wrong
answer to that too, but what'swhat's unique is that every,
every person I asked that it'salways like the, the, the soft
skills.
It's never I learned this tradeor I did X, y, z.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
I think that the reason that is is is honestly
because you know in the industrythat we're in it.
I mean, it changes so fast, theskill set itself, the new
technologies and everything thatcome out.
I think that that's whyeverybody's always going to lean
towards the hey, what traits,what kind of leadership traits
or work traits did I pick up?
(31:01):
Not necessarily a hard skill.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Yeah, I think it's a lot of that grit and keeping
your head on a swivel learningto adapt.
It's these things that we'renot.
I wouldn't say it doesn'tstress me out still, but at the
same time I guess I'm betteradapted to it because of my time
in the service, you know.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
Oh yeah, absolutely, and you deal with every single
personality type you couldpossibly imagine, because my
first platoon I had kids fromthe inner city, kids, country
bunkins and every single thingin between and trying to figure
out how to take that diverseworkforce and make them a team
(31:40):
is you just learn about peopleand learn how to manage
different types of people.
Meet those people where theyare rather than force people to
adapt to your leadership style,which obviously never works.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Yeah, well said.
So I'm going to kind of switchgears here and talk a little bit
about the mental health in theindustry.
Obviously, we know, as vets,you know that's a big, big issue
.
More recently than ever wefound it.
It's a major issue in theconstruction industry too.
So if we've got vets out there,uh, or anybody really, that's
(32:13):
just getting burned out, causewe know, if you let it, the
industry can eat you alive.
Um same thing with the service.
But if you've got people outthere just struggling trying to
make it to the next day andthey're just getting burned out,
what?
What would both of you guys sayto them just to encourage them?
Speaker 3 (32:27):
Yeah.
So I would say, hey, you know,don't let pride get the better
of yourself.
You know, we come from a verytough culture in the military
right, where I think for toolong, asking for help was was
viewed as a weakness.
I would say, hey, that's notthe case.
As a person that has friendswith PTSD, I would tell them hey
, there's no shame in reachingout.
(32:48):
Reach out, you know, talk tosomeone.
Talk to someone and maybe theyhave the resource that you need.
And the other thing I would sayis you're not alone.
You're never alone in this.
You know everybody, everybody'sgot your back.
You know, regardless if you'vehung up the Superman cape or not
, we're all still here togetherand it's no different than the
(33:11):
days that we were all in the boxhole together.
So don't hesitate to reach out.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Now I'm going to sound like a junior.
True, that was spot on, so thatwas really well done.
Yeah, but I think you know thecouple of times that people have
brought that to me and hadconversations about not being
able to sleep at night becauseI'm thinking about the 37 things
that are lingering that I needto take care of.
In the morning I'm listening toanother podcast.
(33:39):
I think it was a Jocko podcast.
One thing that was recommendedby whoever was talking on there
is have a pen and paper rightthere by your bedside and then
write down those things as theypop into your brain, and then
you can let that go in themoment and say, all right, I've
now controlled that item becauseI have it down on a piece of
(34:00):
paper and I'm going to forget itout of my brain now because I
need to get some sleep.
I'm going to forget it out of mybrain now because I need to get
some sleep.
So I do think like having abalanced life in terms of
physical exercise and gettingenough sleep and not having
alcohol and drug issues are soimpactful to mental health, and
once you start having two orthree of those problems I just
(34:23):
mentioned, that's when thingsreally, really break down.
So I think anything you can doto kind of keep control of
things while you're at home andbe the best person you can be at
home whether it's a father orwhatever it might be and then be
the best you can be at work,but kind of do your best to to
(34:45):
keep those things in separateand focus where you need, to
focus in that and live in themoment.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Yeah, you know, while we're talking about this, one
thing that comes to mind is Iknow the VA gets a really bad
rep from a lot of people.
I haven't had too many badexperiences personally, but
they've been super supportive tome on my personal mental health
journey and there's a lot ofcommunity care out there that
they can defer people to andit's 100% supported by the VA
(35:11):
too.
You don't have to be 100%disabled, so there's certainly
options out there for vets.
Even if you don't want to gotalk to somebody I mean talk to
somebody at the VA I should saythey can help you with community
care.
And what I think I've lovedabout this industry too is if
I'm having a tough time,regardless of if the guy to my
(35:31):
left or right is a vet or not,we're going through the junk
together on the job site.
So they know the same strugglesbecause they're going through
the same struggles and it'shelped a lot of us.
Just go, man, this sucks, kindof like when you're you're
downrange.
This sucks, but I can talk toyou about it Cause you're, you
got the same experience.
It's not like I can come homeand unload all my junk on my
(35:51):
wife Cause she's just going togo.
Okay, that sucks.
I don't know how to help you,but it's.
That's been really helpful forme.
Like you said, both of you guysjust there's people out there
to talk to.
I've answered my LinkedInplenty of times.
People have my phone number and, even if it's just an ear, I
need an ear.
I need somebody to talk tobecause I'm going through crap
(36:12):
and it sucks.
Speaker 3 (36:15):
I just need to get it off my chest.
Yeah, no, absolutely.
I mean, that's well said too,scott.
It's an issue that I don'tthink that we're anywhere close
to resolving yet, but uh, youknow, I think that a lot of us
pray that we do finally get agrasp on it.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
So yeah, for sure.
Um, so I'm going to wrap thisup with, uh, my last question
here.
Um, we all know we need peopledesperately in the industry.
Uh, there's plenty of metricsout there and, and plenty of
metrics out there and statisticsthat show, you know, hundreds
of millions of positions arebecoming open and it's it
doesn't look like it's gettingmuch better.
(36:50):
Uh, there's a lot of folks goodfolks retiring out of the
industry.
So if you have people thatlisten to the show, that are in
the service or maybe recentlygotten out, or even older vets,
what would you try to say tothose folks to try to encourage
them to get into theconstruction industry in some
way or another?
Speaker 3 (37:08):
So I would say, as you're getting ready to
transition out 100%, look intothe Skill Bridge program.
You know, as a product of theSkill Bridge program, I thought
that it was a great eye openerfor me.
You know, I was that guy thatwas like, hey, I'm going to go
work the tool section at HomeDepot and just be happy.
(37:29):
But the second I didSkillBridge and got into the
industry.
I realized that was the rightfit for me.
So, yeah, I think SkillBridgewould be the number one thing.
That's probably the scariesttime in your life is transition.
When you're going from themilitary into the civilian
sector.
You don't know what's next.
But I think it's only scarybecause you don't get out there
(37:51):
and see what's available.
And in this constructionindustry it's like Ben has
alluded to and yourself it's agreat industry where there's
lots of camaraderie, and I thinkthat that's what vets are
looking for.
So, yeah, skill Bridge.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
For sure, though, I mean, what a great program.
One thing we do at Harkins iswe have an affinity group called
the Harkins Warriors, so we tryto get all of our Harkins
veterans together a handful oftimes throughout the year.
Oftentimes it's something likegoing to Reese across America
and putting Reese on ArlingtonNational Cemetery.
(38:27):
Or it's as simple as going andpicking some crabs together at a
Maryland crab house.
But seeking out a company whereyou have a group of veterans,
and it's simple as asking arethere any employee resource
groups in your company and isthere one that's that's tailored
to the veteran community?
(38:48):
And when you get a group ofveterans that are inside the
company, you get a little bit ofnatural mentorship and you get
some people to talk with andsome people that share a common
history.
So that's one thing I findreally, really fun at Harkins is
engaging with the HarkinsWarriors and connecting with all
the veterans in our company.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Yeah, that's one thing I enjoy.
We have a resource group andit's really fun to get us all
together, talk, smack on theother branches and just kind of
talk about the things that we'retalking about what skills we
bring, how we can help, how wecan expose the rest of the
company to some of the skills wehave or some of our interests,
like whether it's laying wreathsat a wreaths across America or
(39:29):
something that's important to usand really just educating our
colleagues and coworkers on thiskind of stuff, or it could be
advocating for hey, you know, Iwant, uh, I'd like to request
this specific holiday be acompany holiday, cause it's
important to me and my, mybranch, or whatnot, just as an
example.
So I mean, I, I, I reallyappreciate both you guys.
(39:54):
This has been interesting.
Um, I hope after editing.
I get at least 20 minutes of agood podcast out of this maybe
all the fun that I've had on myend with my kids and dog and
whatnot, but uh, yeah, thank youguys.
Um, if folks uh would like toreach out, court man, I searched
for you on LinkedIn.
I don't think you have one,unless you're hiding somewhere.
No, I've got it you do.
Speaker 3 (40:13):
Okay, all right.
So here's the issue.
Total disclaimer my first nameis actually Courtland.
Okay, I just go by Court.
So if you actually searchCourtland C-O-U-R-T-L-A-N-D.
Actually search CortlandC-O-U-R-T-L-A-N-D.
Sawyer on LinkedIn, you'll findit.
I'm on there.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
Okay, Well, now I can tag you Ben.
Speaker 3 (40:32):
I'll be sure to tag you too.
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
So if people want to reach out is LinkedIn maybe the
best way to get ahold of youguys to chat.
Speaker 3 (40:41):
Absolutely yeah.
I think that's a good resource.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Okay, Very cool.
Well, any any parting wordsfrom you guys?
Words of wisdom.
Speaker 3 (40:50):
Hey.
So I just want to say, Scott,thank you for your service.
Man, it's an honor to wear theCV badge with people like you,
so thank you for what you'redoing here.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
Yeah, great, I appreciate what you're doing,
you're doing a lot for theveteran community and thanks for
thanks for highlightingCortonot.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
Thank you guys.
That's very humbling to hear.
I appreciate it.
And thank you guys for yourtime too.
Speaker 3 (41:13):
I got it.
You take care man.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
All right, y'all, you too.
Getting into construction and feeling that
same team environment and thatsame ability to think about
people and solve problemstogether is clearly right away
knew that this would be thecareer for me.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
This is the Construction Veteran Podcast
Construction.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Veteran Podcast Connecting and celebrating
veterans in construction.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Now here's your host, scott Friend.
Welcome back to a uniqueepisode of the Construction
Veteran Podcast.
I'm Scott Friend.
We've got two people on thisepisode Ben Nichols, a former
Marine Corps officer, and CourtSawyer, a retired Master Chief
from the Navy Seabees.
Let's dig into it.
Hired Master Chief from theNavy Seabees, let's dig into it.
(00:44):
Ben Nichols and Court Sawyer,how are you guys?
Speaker 3 (00:50):
What's going on, Scott?
Good to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
This is a first for the construction veteran, so
I've never had two people on itonce.
So this is going to be fun.
I hope everybody's ready forthe ride.
So bear with me on this, youguys too.
So Ben and I were actually thefirst to get introduced through
a previous guest of mine, angieMartinez.
(01:18):
She's awesome, so shout out toAngie.
And Court just happens to be afellow CB that's working with
Ben and previously worked in theservice together, so we'll get
into that here in a little bit.
But, court, I want to startwith you, man, where are you
from and what's your servicebackground?
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Yeah, so I grew up in the heartland, so just outside
of St Louis Missouri, joined theNavy in July of 1994.
So a really long time ago.
I'm kind of dating myself now.
Spent 27 years in the NavySeabees, so as a.
Spent 27 years, uh, in the navycbs, so as a builder, best rate
in the navy um darn right yeah,so uh.
(01:51):
So started out uh, you knowseveral deployments, obviously
you know um.
And then uh ended my career asuh, the total force enlisted
advocate, uh, working with forcemaster chief uh at the time
force Force Master Chief Trent,and then it changed over to
Force Master Chief DelbertTerrell.
So it was great times, you know, really enjoy it.
(02:13):
Couldn't ask for a bettercareer.
And then Ben and I actuallyended up serving together during
one of my times in NMCB 5.
I had to think there for asecond.
There's been a couple ofbattalions in my career.
So he was my company officer,met up with him in Spain after a
year-long stint in Afghanistan,linked up with him and we did
(02:38):
that deployment together, wentback to Homeport and then both
got transferred to theoperations department and did
another deployment to the FarEast, so down to Okinawa, where
we had some opportunities totake some troops out and do some
of the Balacatan mission, whichwas kind of cool.
I'll let Ben touch on that.
But yeah, then Ben transferredout.
(03:01):
I got transferred to the NavalAcademy, which is where Ben and
I were able to stay connected,because he ended up back here in
Maryland as well, so got anopportunity to work at the
United States Naval Academy as asenior enlisted leader and then
ultimately, like I said, endedmy career at NAVFAC headquarters
in DC, decided to get out at 27years because my wife was tired
(03:22):
of moving around.
She wanted the kids to have anopportunity to graduate with the
friends they'd made.
So stuck it out here and itworked out for the best.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Man, that's cool.
Yeah, I'm ready to dive into alittle bit more of that.
So, ben, how about you?
Where are you from and what'syour service background?
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Well, I can't hold a candle to Court's career, making
it all the way to Master Chief.
I did a lowly five and a halfyears in the Marine Corps but my
dad was a Marine, his dad was aMarine and growing up in
Maryland I was just reallymotivated to attend the Naval
Academy.
My dad actually didn't want meto attend the Naval Academy
(04:00):
because he was a prior enlistedMarine Mustang and he had his
fair share of Naval Academygrads that he would call ring
knockers.
So he wasn't always in favor ofthat, but I think he came to be
pretty proud of it and had anawesome time at the Naval
Academy, got to be a four-yearvarsity wrestler there and
(04:23):
seemed like I was predestined tojoin the Marine Corps.
So upon graduation I went toTBS, really wanted to be a
tracker, an amphibious assaultvehicle officer, and then I
really got blessed with mysecond choice at the end of the
basic school, which is asix-month course in Quantico,
(04:44):
virginia, where they gave me themilitary occupational specialty
of a combat engineer, which wasan absolute blast.
So my first duty station waswith a combat engineer company
out of Okinawa, japan, and gotto be a platoon commander of 44
Marines.
When I first got there, I knewwe were going to Afghanistan, so
(05:06):
I got a pretty fresh platoon,had a bunch of awesome sergeants
and an awesome gunnery sergeantto work with and we did about a
six-month workup and then endedup deploying with 2nd Battalion
9th Marines to Marjah,afghanistan, in 2010, which was
(05:31):
just a couple months after theinvasion of Marjah during the
surge of troops, duringPresident Obama's surge of
troops there.
And then, while in Afghanistan,probably towards the end of
that deployment, it was time topick a new duty station and I
remember the monitor at the timeemailing me the list of
potential assignments and, kindof scrolling through the list,
(05:52):
port Hueneme which I could notsay at the time because I had no
idea how to say it correctlykind of struck my eye.
I looked it up and it was rightin between Santa Barbara and
Malibu and I said you know what?
I think that spot's for me andkind of put my name in the hat
for that, not knowing anythingabout the Seabees and ended up
(06:13):
at NMCB 5 as a personnelexchange program officer and had
an awesome experience for threeyears serving with NMCB 5 and
got to work with a bunch offantastic CVs deployed to Rota,
spain, and back to Okinawa.
Japan did a detachment with Cortto the Philippines where we got
(06:34):
to build a footbridge to helpthe local population there
access their farm fields duringthe rainy season, when they
previously had to walk miles toget to the next bridge.
So just a really, really coolexperience being with the CVs
and learning real constructionOn the combat engineer side in
(06:55):
the Marine Corps.
It was all close combatinfantry engineering, support,
maybe building a small FOB for asquad of Marines to operate out
of looking for IEDs to allowour forces to be mobile, and
then the Seabees got to learnabout what real construction is
all about.
So that's the background on myservice how to blast and
(07:20):
wouldn't have changed anythingabout it and got to work with a
bunch of awesome leaders likeCorp.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Yeah, that's awesome.
Yeah, the Marines blow it up,cbs build it up right.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
That's about right.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
So I mean, you have a pretty unique perspective.
Obviously, serving with the CBs, it's always fun.
When I run into somebody thatserved in the Marine Corps I'd
say, oh, I was Navy.
Oh okay, Okay, I was a CB.
Oh man, I love you guys.
So it's really neat to get thatrespect from other branches and
so you were embedded in that.
I thought that was neat.
So, not knowing much about theCBs, I mean so you didn't really
(07:51):
know what you were getting intowhen you had that the orders in
front of you going to PortHueneme.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Not at all.
I really I really didn't.
Outside of Googling what a CBwas and understanding it a
little bit better, um, um, Iremember when I first rolled
into port oneimi on the veryfirst day I'm coming right out
of afghanistan, maybe you know amonth ago and um, I rolled into
port oneimi and they were doinga field exercise in the park,
in the battalion headquartersparking lot, they had one roller
concertina wire out and theyhad, uh, wooden cut of M16s and
I was like, oh my goodness, whatdid I get myself into?
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Yeah, so, court, when you went to enlist, did you
know much about the Seabees.
Was that your first choice, orwhat was your original plan?
Speaker 3 (08:38):
No.
So I'll tell you.
So, growing up I was a prettycompetitive swimmer and I wanted
to go to college and be aswimmer.
And my dad did a stint in theNavy as a boiler tech.
And I remember my senior yearin high school.
I told him he was like, whatare you going to do?
And I said I'm going to go tocollege.
(08:59):
He said you're not going to goto college and drink and party
and blow my money.
You're going to at least listento what Navy recruiters have to
say.
And you know, being a smartaleck teenage kid, I told him.
I said, hey, I'll listen towhat a recruiter has to say, but
if I'm going to join theservice, it'll be the Navy.
You know, to follow in yourfootsteps.
And I thought that I devisedthis great plan of I'll tell
(09:21):
them that I'm really intowoodworking and they don't build
wooden ships anymore, so Iwon't have to join the Navy and
I can go to college.
And uh, lo and behold, myrecruiter was a BU one.
Uh, so, uh, the second I satdown across from him and I said
hey, you know, I'm really intowoodworking.
I took woodshop in high schooland that's kind of the path I
(09:42):
want to go down.
He was like I got a job for you.
And I was like, oh man, so,being a man of my word, which my
dad brought me up to be said,I'll try this out for four years
, well, realizing that it has tobe a minimum of five, said, ok,
five years can't be that bad,and then I'll go to college.
And then the rest was kind ofhistory, you know.
After five years, I was like,oh, this isn't bad, you know, I
(10:03):
don't really know what I want todo in life, so I'll stick it
out.
And then, at the end, of nineyears I was like, man, I'm kind
of good at this, so I guess I'lljust stick it out and keep
going.
I think once I hit 20 years, mywife was like hey, are we done
yet?
And then, finally, at 27, yearsI was like okay, you can have
your time now.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Yeah, yeah, quite an impressive career.
It sounds like I mean knowingwhat I know.
Now, looking back, I mean Idon't regret any decisions, but
I do wish I had stuck it out fora third enlistment.
I got to learn a little bitmore maybe go to C school,
something like that so I had tolearn the hard way, getting out
and learning everything.
But no, it's really neat.
I appreciate you guys sharingyour story, um, so this is a
(10:45):
question for either one of you,whichever wants to take it.
Uh, what do you guys do now?
So you both work for Harkinsbuilders.
Tell me what you guys do.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
All right, so so I'll go first.
So I run the warrantydepartment at Harkins builders.
So you know GP GC outfit thatuh, they came up with a great
idea, idea like let's start ourown personal warranty department
, which I thought was prettycool.
Ben and I sat down.
Uh, when I first got out of thenavy I was working as an intern
at a at another outfit and uh,doing the skill birds program,
(11:15):
and uh he was like, hey, Cord, Ithink this is the right fit for
you, You've got the personalityto build this department.
So came in and started thewarranty department from the
ground up, which we're two yearsin about two years in right now
and full steam on warranty.
So that's what I do.
It's not nearly as impressiveas what Ben has done at Harkins.
(11:35):
I will tell you that.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
That's kind of you, cord.
I'll give you a littlebackground on coming over to
Harkins.
When I left the Seabees I wasactually getting out of the
Marine Corps at that time, so Icame back to Maryland, where I'm
from, and ended up working fora small contractor actually
doing a lot of NAVFAC work.
So they were a small businessthat was on one of the NAVFAC
(11:58):
Washington small Macs and spentthree years there learning the
federal contracting game.
I remember the first day Ishowed up on a construction site
and they asked me to put thesubmittal register together and
I asked what's the submittal?
So I was like he was definitelydrinking from the fire hose
when it came to the constructionindustry and federal
(12:18):
contracting, the constructionindustry and federal contracting
.
But had a really greatexperience in that small
business and got to learn a tonabout construction and federal
contracting.
Ended up being introduced toHarkins after a number of years
over there and found out aboutthis 100% employee-owned
(12:39):
organization that's been aroundsince 1965, that's doing work
from Philadelphia down throughthe Carolinas, and they brought
me on board to lead theirfederal contracting division
really government contractingdivision so, whether it's
federal, state, county ormunicipal, county or municipal
(13:06):
and jumped at the opportunity tojoin the team and had an
awesome run of a number of yearsdoing government work at
Harkins, growing the team andbuilding some fun projects.
And they just happened to begoing through succession
planning after a couple of yearsthere and they ended up
throwing my name in the mix ofeight other folks at Harkins
that they were considering forfuture executive roles because
they knew they had their CEO andchief operating officer, who
(13:30):
were the number one and numbertwo gentlemen in the
organization getting ready toretire.
After three years of workingwith a consultant who put us
through a strategic plantogether as a group of nine and
put us in different elements atthe company.
At the end of that three yearsI'm super blessed that they
(13:50):
ended up picking me to succeedthe CEO.
So now I've been in thepresident role for a couple of
years and took over as CEO inJanuary this year couple of
years and took over as CEO inJanuary of this year.
But it's an awesome companywith an awesome culture and just
super humbled and blessed to beable to be doing what I'm doing
.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
That's awesome man.
What a good spot to be in too.
So you kind of like you saidyou were drinking from the fire
and you went.
What year did you separate fromthe Marine Corps?
Please remind me.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
I got out in 2013.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
So you had, I mean, from that point, just over 10
years going out basically notknowing much about the
commercial side of this industry, all the way up into running a
company.
So so, court, what?
What year did you separate?
2021, july?
Speaker 3 (14:35):
of 21.
Oh, wow, so that is.
Yeah, you mentioned Skillbridge, which was.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
July 21.
Oh wow, so that is three.
Yeah, you mentioned Skillbridge, which was it's a relatively
new program.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
I was the first person at NAVFAC to do it and I
think Admiral Corker was readyto kill me afterwards because
everybody else was like, hey,let's do that, as they were
separating.
He was losing people three tosix months early.
But yeah, what a great program.
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
And that it's based off your rank.
Is that correct?
So you can do three or sixmonths based off of your rank?
Speaker 3 (15:06):
So it has nothing to do with rank.
You can do three or six months.
Well, let me rephrase that.
They might've changed it by nowto where it's based off of rank
, but when I was doing it youcould do up to six months.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Um, there was no rank stipulation in it, you just had
to have commander's approval.
Oh, okay, gotcha.
So what a lot of people don'trealize is once you make that
rank of master chief in theSeabees, you basically combine a
bunch of rates so you had asignificant amount of knowledge,
not only on the carpentry side,but you already had other rates
that you get exposed to, evengoing up through the ranks.
I mean, I got to learn how toweld and do some plumbing and
(15:43):
electrical work, but so you hadthis trade knowledge.
But what was it that really gotyou into the commercial side of
the industry after you got out?
Speaker 3 (15:50):
So I think that, you know, I think it was a natural
transition as I was leaving thebees, you know, to be honest
with you, it's comfort zone,right, we worked construction
for all those years, easy totransition.
And then also the the fact that, uh, you know what brought me
to Maryland?
Uh, you know, kind of kind ofgoing backwards a little bit,
(16:11):
what was Ben?
Um, ben Nichols?
He, uh, we were in thePhilippines, in the jungle, and,
uh, I was looking for my nextduty assignment and he told me
that, hey, go to the NavalAcademy, that's the best spot
for a guy like you.
And then I got here and ourfriendship, you know, really
took off after he got out of theMarine Corps.
And so, through that mentorshipand guidance from him, the
mentorship and guidance fromsome other people within the
(16:32):
community, it just seemed like anatural transition to go into
the commercial side.
I thought that, you know, hey, Ihave something to offer.
I didn't truly know what it was, to be honest with you,
operationally, you know, at thelevel of what I left in CVs,
operationally, I thought that Ihad something there and I did
spend some time in doing theoperations role for the first
(16:56):
company that I went to work for.
But then, whenever Ben gave methis opportunity, it just it
seemed like it fit right.
You know, as a CV you're alwaysconstantly looking to improve
something.
You know that is kind ofingrained in us hey, how do you
make it better?
And given an opportunity tostart a new division within a
(17:16):
great organization like Harkins,it seemed like a natural fit.
And after talking to my wifeand everything that's what the
transition was is to go over toHarkins.
So it's again to answer yourquestion.
I think it was just a naturalthing.
I've been working constructionfor 27 years and, surrounded by
it in the CVs, it just feltright to go into that sector,
(17:38):
leaving yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
So what about you, ben?
What was it that really drewyou toward government
contracting, specifically?
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Yeah, I think when I was getting out I was looking at
different industries andthinking about what I thought I
could make the best lateraltransfer in, and for the fact
that I just spent three yearswith the Seabees and also being
a Marine Corps combat engineer.
It really led me to think aboutconstruction and I was really
(18:10):
lucky to really utilize theSeabee network and the first
company that I worked for wasthe operations was run by a CEC
officer.
It had been, you know, been inretired CEC officer, I think.
He was a kind of 80s and 90sCEC officer and then started a
(18:31):
construction gig and when I gotinto construction I realized I
made the perfect choice becauseall the things I loved about the
Marine Corps were right therein construction.
So I felt like when I hit theperfect choice, because all the
things I loved about the MarineCorps were right there in
construction.
So I felt like when I hit thejob site as a project manager, I
had a lead superintendent thatfelt just like a gunnery
(18:52):
sergeant or a chief pettyofficer that I was partnered
with and all the, all thedifferent trades on the job site
felt like my squad leaders.
So I just felt completely athome in that environment and all
the things that the MarineCorps teaches you like, servant
leadership, having a bias foraction, having decentralized
(19:14):
command, so you make decisionsat the lowest level possible to
allow the people in the frontlines to make faster and more
efficient decisions, whichenables a construction project
to go faster.
All that stuff is completelyand directly works in the
construction field as well as inthe Marine Corps, so I loved
(19:35):
every aspect of it.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
You know, I feel like almost every, every episode
somebody says something to thateffect that it just kind of felt
the same, regardless of whatbackground they came from in the
service.
It just kind of felt the samebeing with their team.
Ben and Eric, excuse me in yourrole.
How have you kind of carriedover the role of a command
master chief I mean, that's abig deal or master chief period,
(19:57):
uh, how have you kind ofcarried that role over into your
current role?
Speaker 3 (20:02):
So I I gotta tell you at Arkans it's been really easy
, uh, because it's an ESOPcompany, so the culture there is
great.
It it's kind of been seamless.
You know everybody always asksfor your input.
I think that you know thattitle of veteran when, when
people see it right there,there's a certain thing that
(20:22):
that's associated with it, right, uh, when, when people see it
right, there's a certain thingthat's associated with it, right
, when people see that you're aveteran, they oh, okay, that's a
person of action and someonewho is going to problem solve.
They're used to, you know,being in situations like this.
So I think that naturallypeople gravitate to us, which is
a great thing.
And those open lines ofcommunication again, you know
Hartman's being an ESOP, itmakes it easy.
(20:43):
Everybody's there to do theright thing.
The culture's great.
So as far as carrying over likethe role, I kind of try to shy
away from it.
I don't really brag to a lot ofpeople that I was a master
chief in the Navy.
It comes up quite a bitwhenever they read my profile or
something like that.
They're like, oh, you did thisand I'm like, yeah, but um, yeah
(21:04):
, I.
I think that the culture at thecompany is what really is, made
it easy as that transition.
Um, you know, having been thereas well, I try to actually shy
away from Ben as much aspossible because I don't want
people thinking that there's athat you know.
Everybody knows that.
We know each other from ourtime in the service, but I
really try to hone in on what myjob is at Harkins and perform
(21:26):
it out to serve all of theexecutives there.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
So yeah, very cool.
How was that transition?
And I'll give you a quick story.
When I'm up at, like maybe, aveteran career fair trying to
hire people, it's reallydifficult to look at a guy
that's an E eight, E nine, andsometimes they might not have a
lot of qualifications.
So, hey man, you might have tostart in an assistant type of
(21:50):
level.
How was that?
Um, not getting over the prideper se, but how were you able to
kind of humble yourself and gohey, well, you know, yeah, I had
a very fulfilling and longcareer, but I'm I'm kind of the
new guy now.
How was that adjustment?
Speaker 3 (22:03):
Yeah, I don't think there wasn't really one for me.
I hit the ground running atHarkins.
People would come over and askme something.
I'd be like, hey, I know, I'mthe new guy and I actually
started at Harkins at probablythe worst possible time the week
after Thanksgiving.
So the majority of the companywas either on vacation or going
on vacation.
So I was kind of left there tofigure it out.
(22:24):
I was kind of left there tofigure it out.
But yeah, I think that you know, I think a lot of you know the
senior enlisted people in themilitary.
They're pretty humble people andit's easy to you know.
Hey, you know I would take outthe trash if that's what was
asked of me.
I mean, it's not a big thing.
You know where you're comingfrom.
(22:44):
You know we were talking aboutthis today at lunch with some
some other coworkers and youknow one of the things about
military people is we're so usedto it when you transfer from
one duty station to the next, itdoesn't really matter what your
rank was, because you startback at the bottom Right.
You have to reprove yourselfevery single time you transfer
(23:04):
to get back into that top 10percent of the command to get
back into that top 10% of thecommand.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Cord is one of the best there is in terms of
emotional intelligence anddealing with people.
He's just as good with thebattalion commander as he is
with the brand new seaman that'shitting the battalion Cord.
Just knowing Cord's ability toknow and lead people of all
different shapes and sizes andthe way they think I knew Court
(23:35):
would be a home run in theindustry.
And to highlight Court'shumility, I'm sitting next to
one of his bronze stars that heearned while serving with the
SEALs in Afghanistan.
So he's had a pretty awesomecareer and done a lot of amazing
things, yet still as humble ashe could possibly be.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
So, Scott, I think again.
I think the mindset right and Ithink this of every veteran
right, you want to be operatingat that top 10%, and I use the
analogy of a foxhole, right, youcould be the best foxhole
digger that there is out thereand be the top 10%.
And I use the analogy of afoxhole, right, you can be the
best foxhole digger that thereis out there and be the top 10%
of the guys that can dig afoxhole, but as soon as the
foxhole is dug, you quickly goback down to the bottom right.
(24:17):
It's the only way you canmaintain the top 10% is to
constantly improve your fightingposition and be that guy, and I
think, as long as you approacheverything, that's a recipe for
success.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Very well said.
I appreciate that and Iappreciate your humility too.
Court, it goes a long way.
Thank you, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
So obviously we talked about how you guys ended
up on the path with your service?
Speaker 2 (24:37):
I guess a good question would be I mean Court,
I know you're still within thefive years of getting out, so,
ben, this question is really foryou.
I guess a good question wouldbe I mean Cord, I know you're
still within the five years ofgetting out, so, ben, this
question is really for you.
I guess.
What is it about this industrythat you thought, okay, this is
maybe not your promotions andwhatnot, but what was it that
(24:59):
made you think, okay, this iswhat I'm going to do for the
rest of my life, this is whatI'm going to retire out of.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
I just love the people.
It had the elements that Iloved about the Marine Corps
working with a team and leadingpeople that are outside doing
something hard and it gave anopportunity to lean into being a
servant leader, which is theright way to be an officer in
the military or really the rightway to be a leader in anything
that you're doing and loveworking with my senior enlisted
partners or the superintendentand the foreman, so it's just
(25:36):
getting into construction andfeeling that same team
environment and that sameability to think about people
and solve problems together isclearly right away.
Knew that this would be thecareer for me.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Yeah, and Court, I guess a way I would ask you that
question.
When you retired out after allthat time, what is it that made
you just say, hey, you canretire basically comfortably,
and if you really wanted to livea humble life you could.
But what is it that drove youto say I want to keep working, I
want to keep doing this somehow, some way, some shape or form
in the construction industry.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
My wife no, you got to edit that.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
You got to afford the boat somehow, man.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
No, you know, Ben and I actually have this
conversation all the time.
You know I'm not doing it forthe money.
Yeah, I think it think it goesback to the camaraderie thing.
Right, that's the number onething you miss when you get out
of the military, in my opinion,is the camaraderie, and this
industry really offers it.
It really does.
Everybody's there for the samecommon goal to get the job done
(26:43):
and move on to the next thing.
So, yeah, I think that it was anatural transition for me and I
enjoy working we talk all thetime about.
I think it's natural.
I just I have to do something.
Ben and I were talking rightbefore we jumped on the podcast
and I said work ethic is a bigthing for me and I focus all my
time and energy and quality oflife to me is about work.
(27:08):
And he was like I said so.
So when I eventually do retire,when my wife says I can, um, I
don't have to do this anymoreand he's like, no, you'll.
You're the kind of guy that'llfind something else and you'll
devote all your time to to thenext project, and and he's he's
right, I probably will.
Yeah, I think that's why thecamaraderie is is where it is.
I think that whenever I am donethough, that's probably going
to be the hardest day of my lifeyeah.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
But it'll just be another transition, because I
really feel like there is nofinish line.
So there's not this magicalfinish line where you retire and
you let go.
Yeah, you got to have.
That's what makes life fun isbeing passionate about something
and putting your work intosomething, and I imagine
whenever you retire, you'll findsome passionate thing to be
(27:51):
involved with whether it's anonprofit or whatever it might
be, but I think that's what lifeis all about building
relationships and working hardand accomplishing goals.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
For sure, yeah, no, I agree.
Now, this is a loaded question,but if you were to have to
narrow down to a couple things,what do you think would have
been the biggest takeaway fromyour time in the service that's
helped you?
Speaker 1 (28:15):
uh, both of you guys succeed in what you're doing
today a couple of times, is justlearning to be a servant leader
.
Because as a leader, if you canbe there rolling up your
sleeves with the people thatyou're leading and helping them
(28:35):
knock down obstacles and gettingto know them as people, and I
think if you take that mentalityanywhere, it's going to be
successful.
And then learning how to bedecisive it might be another one
.
I think the military does areally good job of teaching you
that if you wait to make theperfect plan, it'll be too late.
(29:00):
So you got it you have to planand maybe you make a 75% plan
and execute that plan asviolently as you possibly can.
That gives you way more successthan executing the perfect plan
too late.
So I think maybe those twothings are probably the most
important things that learned inthe military.
Speaker 3 (29:19):
Man, I'm going to sound like a real junior troop
right now and say that Ben justknocked that out of the park, so
I don't know what to add.
But that's actually the perfectanswer.
Yeah, I don't even know whereyou would expand on that.
I think that you know, in themilitary we're taught to be
critical thinkers and and alwaysthink you know five, 10 steps
ahead, and that that was onething that I think truly
(29:41):
benefited me coming out of themilitary.
And the work ethic right.
I think that the work ethicthat is instilling you during
service is a huge asset that youbring to the table in the
civilian sector.
I think it's hard for a lot ofpeople to understand it
sometimes, but yeah, I thinkit's definitely one of the
(30:01):
biggest assets that we bring tothe table is, you know, our
ability to never give up.
You know never say die.
You know, hey, stick the never,never give up.
Uh, you know never say die.
You know a stick it out untilit's done and done right.
You know it doesn't matter howmany times we have to do it.
Uh, I think those are probablythe things that I would add to
that, but other than that, again, I sound like a real junior
(30:22):
troop right now.
Thanks, ben.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Oh no, I mean, there's there's really no wrong
answer to that too, but what'swhat's unique is that every,
every person I asked that it'salways like the, the, the soft
skills.
It's never I learned this tradeor I did X, y, z.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
I think that the reason that is is is honestly
because you know in the industrythat we're in it.
I mean, it changes so fast, theskill set itself, the new
technologies and everything thatcome out.
I think that that's whyeverybody's always going to lean
towards the hey, what traits,what kind of leadership traits
or work traits did I pick up?
(31:01):
Not necessarily a hard skill.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Yeah, I think it's a lot of that grit and keeping
your head on a swivel learningto adapt.
It's these things that we'renot.
I wouldn't say it doesn'tstress me out still, but at the
same time I guess I'm betteradapted to it because of my time
in the service, you know.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
Oh yeah, absolutely, and you deal with every single
personality type you couldpossibly imagine, because my
first platoon I had kids fromthe inner city, kids, country
bunkins and every single thingin between and trying to figure
out how to take that diverseworkforce and make them a team
(31:40):
is you just learn about peopleand learn how to manage
different types of people.
Meet those people where theyare rather than force people to
adapt to your leadership style,which obviously never works.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Yeah, well said.
So I'm going to kind of switchgears here and talk a little bit
about the mental health in theindustry.
Obviously, we know, as vets,you know that's a big, big issue
.
More recently than ever wefound it.
It's a major issue in theconstruction industry too.
So if we've got vets out there,uh, or anybody really, that's
(32:13):
just getting burned out, causewe know, if you let it, the
industry can eat you alive.
Um same thing with the service.
But if you've got people outthere just struggling trying to
make it to the next day andthey're just getting burned out,
what?
What would both of you guys sayto them just to encourage them?
Speaker 3 (32:27):
Yeah.
So I would say, hey, you know,don't let pride get the better
of yourself.
You know, we come from a verytough culture in the military
right, where I think for toolong, asking for help was was
viewed as a weakness.
I would say, hey, that's notthe case.
As a person that has friendswith PTSD, I would tell them hey
, there's no shame in reachingout.
(32:48):
Reach out, you know, talk tosomeone.
Talk to someone and maybe theyhave the resource that you need.
And the other thing I would sayis you're not alone.
You're never alone in this.
You know everybody, everybody'sgot your back.
You know, regardless if you'vehung up the Superman cape or not
, we're all still here togetherand it's no different than the
(33:11):
days that we were all in the boxhole together.
So don't hesitate to reach out.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Now I'm going to sound like a junior.
True, that was spot on, so thatwas really well done.
Yeah, but I think you know thecouple of times that people have
brought that to me and hadconversations about not being
able to sleep at night becauseI'm thinking about the 37 things
that are lingering that I needto take care of.
In the morning I'm listening toanother podcast.
(33:39):
I think it was a Jocko podcast.
One thing that was recommendedby whoever was talking on there
is have a pen and paper rightthere by your bedside and then
write down those things as theypop into your brain, and then
you can let that go in themoment and say, all right, I've
now controlled that item becauseI have it down on a piece of
(34:00):
paper and I'm going to forget itout of my brain now because I
need to get some sleep.
I'm going to forget it out of mybrain now because I need to get
some sleep.
So I do think like having abalanced life in terms of
physical exercise and gettingenough sleep and not having
alcohol and drug issues are soimpactful to mental health, and
once you start having two orthree of those problems I just
(34:23):
mentioned, that's when thingsreally, really break down.
So I think anything you can doto kind of keep control of
things while you're at home andbe the best person you can be at
home whether it's a father orwhatever it might be and then be
the best you can be at work,but kind of do your best to to
(34:45):
keep those things in separateand focus where you need, to
focus in that and live in themoment.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Yeah, you know, while we're talking about this, one
thing that comes to mind is Iknow the VA gets a really bad
rep from a lot of people.
I haven't had too many badexperiences personally, but
they've been super supportive tome on my personal mental health
journey and there's a lot ofcommunity care out there that
they can defer people to andit's 100% supported by the VA
(35:11):
too.
You don't have to be 100%disabled, so there's certainly
options out there for vets.
Even if you don't want to gotalk to somebody I mean talk to
somebody at the VA I should saythey can help you with community
care.
And what I think I've lovedabout this industry too is if
I'm having a tough time,regardless of if the guy to my
(35:31):
left or right is a vet or not,we're going through the junk
together on the job site.
So they know the same strugglesbecause they're going through
the same struggles and it'shelped a lot of us.
Just go, man, this sucks, kindof like when you're you're
downrange.
This sucks, but I can talk toyou about it Cause you're, you
got the same experience.
It's not like I can come homeand unload all my junk on my
(35:51):
wife Cause she's just going togo.
Okay, that sucks.
I don't know how to help you,but it's.
That's been really helpful forme.
Like you said, both of you guysjust there's people out there
to talk to.
I've answered my LinkedInplenty of times.
People have my phone number and, even if it's just an ear, I
need an ear.
I need somebody to talk tobecause I'm going through crap
(36:12):
and it sucks.
Speaker 3 (36:15):
I just need to get it off my chest.
Yeah, no, absolutely.
I mean, that's well said too,scott.
It's an issue that I don'tthink that we're anywhere close
to resolving yet, but uh, youknow, I think that a lot of us
pray that we do finally get agrasp on it.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
So yeah, for sure.
Um, so I'm going to wrap thisup with, uh, my last question
here.
Um, we all know we need peopledesperately in the industry.
Uh, there's plenty of metricsout there and, and plenty of
metrics out there and statisticsthat show, you know, hundreds
of millions of positions arebecoming open and it's it
doesn't look like it's gettingmuch better.
(36:50):
Uh, there's a lot of folks goodfolks retiring out of the
industry.
So if you have people thatlisten to the show, that are in
the service or maybe recentlygotten out, or even older vets,
what would you try to say tothose folks to try to encourage
them to get into theconstruction industry in some
way or another?
Speaker 3 (37:08):
So I would say, as you're getting ready to
transition out 100%, look intothe Skill Bridge program.
You know, as a product of theSkill Bridge program, I thought
that it was a great eye openerfor me.
You know, I was that guy thatwas like, hey, I'm going to go
work the tool section at HomeDepot and just be happy.
(37:29):
But the second I didSkillBridge and got into the
industry.
I realized that was the rightfit for me.
So, yeah, I think SkillBridgewould be the number one thing.
That's probably the scariesttime in your life is transition.
When you're going from themilitary into the civilian
sector.
You don't know what's next.
But I think it's only scarybecause you don't get out there
(37:51):
and see what's available.
And in this constructionindustry it's like Ben has
alluded to and yourself it's agreat industry where there's
lots of camaraderie, and I thinkthat that's what vets are
looking for.
So, yeah, skill Bridge.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
For sure, though, I mean, what a great program.
One thing we do at Harkins iswe have an affinity group called
the Harkins Warriors, so we tryto get all of our Harkins
veterans together a handful oftimes throughout the year.
Oftentimes it's something likegoing to Reese across America
and putting Reese on ArlingtonNational Cemetery.
(38:27):
Or it's as simple as going andpicking some crabs together at a
Maryland crab house.
But seeking out a company whereyou have a group of veterans,
and it's simple as asking arethere any employee resource
groups in your company and isthere one that's that's tailored
to the veteran community?
(38:48):
And when you get a group ofveterans that are inside the
company, you get a little bit ofnatural mentorship and you get
some people to talk with andsome people that share a common
history.
So that's one thing I findreally, really fun at Harkins is
engaging with the HarkinsWarriors and connecting with all
the veterans in our company.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Yeah, that's one thing I enjoy.
We have a resource group andit's really fun to get us all
together, talk, smack on theother branches and just kind of
talk about the things that we'retalking about what skills we
bring, how we can help, how wecan expose the rest of the
company to some of the skills wehave or some of our interests,
like whether it's laying wreathsat a wreaths across America or
(39:29):
something that's important to usand really just educating our
colleagues and coworkers on thiskind of stuff, or it could be
advocating for hey, you know, Iwant, uh, I'd like to request
this specific holiday be acompany holiday, cause it's
important to me and my, mybranch, or whatnot, just as an
example.
So I mean, I, I, I reallyappreciate both you guys.
(39:54):
This has been interesting.
Um, I hope after editing.
I get at least 20 minutes of agood podcast out of this maybe
all the fun that I've had on myend with my kids and dog and
whatnot, but uh, yeah, thank youguys.
Um, if folks uh would like toreach out, court man, I searched
for you on LinkedIn.
I don't think you have one,unless you're hiding somewhere.
No, I've got it you do.
Speaker 3 (40:13):
Okay, all right.
So here's the issue.
Total disclaimer my first nameis actually Courtland.
Okay, I just go by Court.
So if you actually searchCourtland C-O-U-R-T-L-A-N-D.
Actually search CortlandC-O-U-R-T-L-A-N-D.
Sawyer on LinkedIn, you'll findit.
I'm on there.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
Okay, Well, now I can tag you Ben.
Speaker 3 (40:32):
I'll be sure to tag you too.
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
So if people want to reach out is LinkedIn maybe the
best way to get ahold of youguys to chat.
Speaker 3 (40:41):
Absolutely yeah.
I think that's a good resource.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Okay, Very cool.
Well, any any parting wordsfrom you guys?
Words of wisdom.
Speaker 3 (40:50):
Hey.
So I just want to say, Scott,thank you for your service.
Man, it's an honor to wear theCV badge with people like you,
so thank you for what you'redoing here.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
Yeah, great, I appreciate what you're doing,
you're doing a lot for theveteran community and thanks for
thanks for highlightingCortonot.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
Thank you guys.
That's very humbling to hear.
I appreciate it.
And thank you guys for yourtime too.
Speaker 3 (41:13):
I got it.
You take care man.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
All right, y'all, you too.
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