A Court of Thorns and Roses Book Club with Devon Hamilton

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Susan and Whittney discuss A Court of Thorns and Roses by Sarah J. Maas in this book club episode featuring special guest Devon Hamilton. 

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Episode Transcript

(00:07):
Hello and welcome to theconversation with Susan and
Whitney, the podcast where twofriends from college discuss
shared interests, insights, andhow we're navigating our lives
today.
This is an ongoing conversationabout how we're surviving and
thriving.
We discuss the important and thetrivial and other fun topics in
between.
I'm Susan Field, a writer andteacher in Philadelphia, and I'm

(00:28):
Whittney Gould, a writer andmarketing director in New
Hampshire.

Susan (00:37):
Whittney, you're the kind of friend who I can count on to
teach me new pop culture termssuch as Bravo, liberty, and
introduce me to trending bookssuch as A Court of Thorns and
Roses.
Today's topic of conversation.

Whittney (00:52):
Susan.
You are the kind of friend whoencourages me to pursue the
things that will help make mylife easier.
you've been encouraging me tolook into hiring some help
around the house and to actuallysign up for TSA pre-check, which
we talked about on our lastepisode, and I'm happy to report
on that second item on TSAPre-Check.
I actually have completed thatone since the last time we

(01:12):
talked, so thanks for the extraencouragement.

Susan (01:14):
That's awesome, Whittney.
Great job.
On today's show, we are excitedto be joined once again by my
sister Devon Hamilton for ourthird annual book club
discussion.
Today we will be discussing bookone of the acclaimed romantasy
series, A Court of Thorns andRoses, also known as ACOTAR by
Sarah J Maas.
Welcome, Devon.

Devon (01:34):
Hi.
Thanks for having me again.
I always look forward to talkingto you ladies about the books
and going in deep.

Susan (01:40):
Yeah, we're happy to have you as always.
So, Whittney, you were the onethat picked this book.
I was hoping you could tell ushow did this book come upon your
radar, and why are we choosingit right now?

Whittney (01:52):
That's a great question, Suze.
So, especially because this bookhas been on my radar for many
years.
it came out in I believe 2015and I've had the ebook for a
couple years now, but it wasjust kind of firmly back on my
TBR.
I didn't really have an impetusto start it yet.
and then Last summer, whenever Iwas traveling for work, my
colleague's girlfriend wasraving about the book.

(02:14):
She was reading them and shejust couldn't stop talking about
them or reading them.
She was describing them likenothing she's ever read before.
And she, you know, she justalmost even couldn't explain to
me the appeal.
Right.
And then my cousin Ashley, thisfall started reading the series
and she said, I need you tostart reading the series because

(02:34):
I need someone to talk to aboutthis series.
And so that's kind of why Istarted reading the book.
And then when we were talkingabout doing our book club with
Devon, this time we were talkingabout how we wanted something
completely different.
So this one is, different thanwhat we've done in the past, so
I thought it might be

Susan (02:51):
Yeah, absolutely.
Whittney.
This is definitely somethingthat wasn't on my radar and I
don't usually read this type ofbook, so I was definitely open
to your suggestion of tryingthis series, trying something
new.
So today we're going to discussall the things.
here's the description from theAmazon page for a court of
thorns and roses.
When 19-year-old Feyre kills awolf in the woods, a beast like

(03:14):
creature arrives to demandretribution for it dragged to a
treacherous magical land sheonly knows from legends.
Feyre discovers that her captoris not an animal, but Tamlin,
one of the world's most lethaland immortal fairies who once
ruled the world.

Whittney (03:32):
As she dwells on his estate, her feelings for Tamlin
transform from icy hostilityinto fiery passion that burns
through every lie and warningshe's been told about the
beautiful, dangerous world ofthe Faye, but an ancient wicked
shadow over the fairy lands isgrowing and Feyre must find a
way to stop it or doom Tamlinand his world forever.

Susan (03:55):
Mass is also known for her other fantasy series, throne
of Glass and Crescent City.
As of 2022, she has sold over 12million copies of her books, and
her works have been translatedinto 37 languages.

Whittney (04:10):
Readers of ACOTAR, which is what we call this
series, it's the acronym, willnotice some familiar themes and
folklore.
In a 2014 USA Today interview,Maas shared her inspirations for
writing the novel.
She said, A Court of Thorns andRoses was actually inspired by
three of my all-time favoritefairy slash folktales, Beauty

(04:30):
and the Beast; East of the Sun,West of the Moon; and Tamlin.
I got the kernel of inspirationby wondering what if Beauty was
a huntress?
And then promptly asked myself,what if the Beast was a
shape-shifting, very sexy fairyLord.
From there, the characters andfairy realm of Prythian just

(04:51):
kind of exploded.

Susan (04:52):
Tamlin is a character in a legendary Scottish border
ballad.
The story revolves around therescue of Tamlin by his true
love from the queen of thefairies.

Whittney (05:02):
The novel is currently being developed as a series for
Hulu.

Susan (05:06):
Okay.
So all that backgroundinformation, which I tHought was
really interesting to talk abouther inspirations and especially
the character of Tam Lynn in theScottish border Ballad.
I found that fascinating and Ithought it added some good
context to the novel, but let'sjust get into it.
What did you both think of thebook?
Did this book live up to thehype?

Devon (05:28):
I completely understand the popularity of the series.
I've seen, Sarah j Maas's workall over the place.
She's taken over Barnes andNoble.
I think that this series isespecially geared toward readers
who are using this as a gateway,because I think it's accessible
to those who are just gettingstarted.
into fantasy, romantic genre, Iunderstand that Maas was paying

(05:53):
homage to a lot of her favoritefairytales and stories, but it
just felt too recycled.
The heroine here is veryskilled, huntress and she's
skilled in weaponry and being inthe woods and survival and this
trope, it just took me straightback to the Hunger Games.
I was picturing Catis in my mindand I didn't find anything

(06:15):
particularly fresh or unique inher story.
So for me it was a bit of adisappointment.

Whittney (06:21):
gonna go opposite of Dev.
I think maybe I liked that itfelt familiar in those ways.
also picked up Katniss fromFeyre, Katniss and Belle and all
of these characters that werefamiliar to me, and I think that
plays on the accessibilitypiece.
I do think that may have beenintentional to get people

(06:41):
excited and, and to kind of diptheir toe in because there is a
lot of complex world building infantasy and this was the easy
access point I think.
but for me, I didn't focus, Iguess, so much on the.
Recycled content, so to speak,as the layers of meaning and

(07:05):
themes that I picked up onthroughout.
So I really liked that and Iliked that.
I'll talk about this a littlebit later, but I liked that the,
the characters were all verydeeply flawed.
I thought that that makes formore interesting plots and
storylines, because even thepeople that you think are, super
noble ended up not being su.

(07:27):
What'd you think?

Susan (07:27):
So I agree with things that both of you said.
I think I agree with what Devonwas saying, where I understand
how it was really, a gatewaybook and it, like you were
saying, Whittney, and is veryaccessible because of the
familiarity.
And I feel like I did enjoy manyelements of it, but I didn't
consistently enjoy thoseelements across the book.
Like, it hit a point where Ireally liked the first half and

(07:50):
then the second half was reallydifficult for me.
so I think there was manyenjoyable elements, but it
didn't live up to the hype.
It's one of those books where inthe moment I, I was, I was
enjoying listening to it, butI've kind of forgotten about it
since.
So it didn't have a lastingeffect for me.

Whittney (08:08):
That's so interesting 'cause I can't stop thinking
about things like months later.
And I have only read book one.

Devon (08:14):
Whittney and Susan, what is your previous experience
with, fantasy novels, if any?

Whittney (08:22):
I read them, I wouldn't say as regularly
anymore as I used to, but I usedto read, not super deep fantasy
on the lines of some of thestuff you've read.
I used to read a lot of youngadult fantasy and whenever I did
line editing, I often had toline edit fantasy books.
Fairy lore for example, wasn't asurprise for me.

(08:42):
Susan, I'm anxious to hear whatyou thought about the second
half of the book because I'mwondering if much of it is that
you didn't have a background infairy lore and the darker side
of fairy lore and if that playeda role into this, because it it
wasn't surprising to me.
'cause I expected that side ofit, I guess, if that

Susan (09:01):
No, that does make sense.
I really don't have much of abackground in fantasy.
I'm familiar with some of thefolklore and things like that,
but I.
No, it's not really a genre thatI'm interested in, which is why
I was open to reading it forthis book discussion as
something new, something to openup my mind.
So no, I did not have abackground in the dark side of
the fairy world.
But for me it was less about theplot, it was less about that.

(09:22):
It was more about the way thatit was written.
I just felt like the writingwasn't engaging enough to make
me interested.

Devon (09:29):
I was curious because I know we all, as kids growing up
in the late eighties, nineties,we are all very well versed in
Disney fairytale lore and theDisney Fairytale world, and I
think that I, see that as aninspiration also for this book.
I know that we all have at leastthat common base of a love for

(09:51):
beauty and the beast.
I drew off of my love for thatto fuel me through the writing
and the book that I wasn'treally a huge fan of.
So that might not necessarily bea strong point for Maas in that
I was using other books to tryto motivate me to keep reading
her actual material.
But that's just where I wascoming from.

Susan (10:08):
I do wanna add that I am familiar with dark fairytales in
terms of Hans ChristianAnderson, the creator of Dark
Fairytales.
I mean, if you've read theoriginal Little Mermaid story,
for example, so, I mean, I amfamiliar with how fairytales can
be dark, but it was more thewriting for me.
Like I feel like if a book isreally powerful, that you should

(10:29):
be able to get into it even ifyou don't have the right
background,

Whittney (10:32):
think it's also, dependent on what you're hoping
the writing will do.
And Susie, I know you, I knowyou love much more poetic,
lyrical language, you love abeautifully written

Susan (10:46):
Hmm.
Yeah.

Whittney (10:47):
I think that potentially this book, that's
not the point of her sentences,

Susan (10:51):
Correct.

Whittney (10:52):
if that

Susan (10:53):
Yeah, Is true.
That is true.
This kind of reminds me,Whittney, in our last episode I
was talking about, you know whobooks are for, and I didn't
think English majors would likecertain fluffy books.
And you pointed out that it'snot necessarily about that.
It's about what is your goal forreading, what type of reader are
you, what are you looking to getout of it?
And I feel like that's sort ofringing true in what you're
saying right now, that maybeit's more about what are you

(11:15):
hoping for it rather than maybewhat it is at face value.

Devon (11:21):
Although for me, if an author is setting out to write
an epic fantasy fairytale basednovel, I feel like one of her
goals in her writing would be tocreate a transportive experience
and a lyrical experience to sucka reader into a fairytale esque
world.
I went into it assuming that itwas going to have that type of
language.

(11:41):
And so when it didn't, that was,a disappointment for me.

Susan (11:44):
I looked in my phone because whenever I read and I
find a really lyrical, beautifulsentence, I write it down in my
phone notes and I looked, Iactually did have two quotes
from the book written down, soit's not like every sentence
wasn't worth repeating.
There was a few descriptionsthat I really liked.
I guess maybe consistently as awhole, it wasn't as beautiful as
I wanted it to be.

(12:05):
Sometimes the dialogue disruptedit.
Like she would have written areally nice scene and I was
really into it, and then all ofa sudden, Feyre would be like,
oh shit, or something like that.
And I'm like, really?
There's this beautiful spell,and all of a sudden she says
shit.
I just wished it didn't evenseem maybe appropriate for the
time period.
There should have been maybeanother phrase that was said, it
almost seemed like she wasspeaking modern day where, but

(12:27):
we were being painted into thisfairytale.
The tone and the language andthe dialogue is what, ripped me
out of any spell that she hadcast.

Devon (12:35):
I had that same experience.
I would be getting into a momentand she would pull me out of it
with a turn of phrase or achoice of words from favor, the
tone just seemed tooinconsistent some of her
language went against what itappeared she was trying to
achieve as a writer.

Susan (12:50):
And I also felt like, oh shit, I keep using that same
phrase, there could have beensomething that would've been
more impactful and morepowerful, something that had
more substance than that.
Masks could have done betterwith creating more of a
substantial turn of phrase.

Whittney (13:06):
So I just had to look up the time period because I
didn't realize that it wassupposed to be set in a
historical time period.
I just was assuming it was likehunger games, kind of dystopian
esque, it didn't affect myreading of the book, but it
looks like people are assuming17 to 18 hundreds because of the

(13:26):
way the humans dress and the

Devon (13:28):
Lack technology and things like that.

Susan (13:31):
Okay.
Like when she went, was it thehuman world?
I honestly, I can't rememberanything specific at the moment,
but just um, when she went backto see her family, I think, like
you were saying, talking abouttheir clothing or the technology
or where they were living ortheir town, that made me believe
that it took place in an oldertime period.

Whittney (13:49):
Yeah.
That was interesting.
Susan, I need to know the twoquotes that you pulled

Susan (13:54):
Oh, okay.
Well I have to pull them up.
there, and, you know,, maybethere was more down the line,
but I, I stopped having themotivation to write them down.
But one of the quotes I had was,I stroked his limp hair.
Its texture like liquid night.
And then another one I had was Itipped my head back and howled
my laughter, like sunshineshattering, age hardened ice.

(14:15):
I like when images are fresh.
I thought that was fresh, some,a fresh comparison.
So I really enjoyed that, but Ididn't find that a lot of her
other language felt new to me.
Which maybe leads into your nextquestion, Whittney.

Whittney (14:29):
So we've kind of already talked about the story
having a lot of recycledcontent, did the story have any
distinguishing factors that madeit feel fresh and unique, or did
it all feel too recycled forboth of you?

Devon (14:43):
My first major leap into the romantic genre, was Shield's
Legacy.
The original series was atrilogy, and then there was a
second trilogy and actually athird trilogy.
It's pretty much for those whohave read it, the gold standard
of romantic writing.
Her writing is so lush and socomplex, and she creates this

(15:05):
unbelievably complicated andrich, mythology around her
entire world.
I feel that every other bookthat I've picked up since then,
I've been searching for thatsame feeling, that same rush.
I feel bad in a way for otherfantasy writers because it's
like trying to compare the skilland mastery of a player in the

(15:27):
NBA to someone who's justlearning the game as a high
school basketball player.
There's a completely differentexperience watching an amateur
sport as opposed to aprofessional game.
And after reading JacquelineCarey's series, I felt like I
just started out at like thehighest Olympic gold level.

(15:47):
And anything else just doesn'tcompare to that.
I truly believe that Maas, notonly read, but loved jacqueline
Carey's series because I seemany, many connections in it
between her world building andideas of the night court and
these shades of darkness andlight and this idea of sexuality

(16:10):
as love, but also a point ofpossible manipulation.
And all of these things, I mean,these aren't new ideas, but
several specific details thatMaas used, I found straight from
the pages of Jacqueline Carey.
So having those two in my mindas comparative books, it was
just, a losing game all aroundfor maas.

Susan (16:33):
Devon and I were texting a little bit leading up to this,
and she said that in Shield'slegacy, the main character's
name was Fedra, which is sosimilar to Feyre.
Um, coincidence, I don't know.
Devon said to me, about thenight court, there was a
literally one scene that wasalmost exactly the same, that
what had happened in the secondhalf of a Qatar.

Devon (16:55):
The, idea of a masquerade is a huge theme throughout the
Jacqueline Carey series.
And so every time the idea ofthe masks and these balls and
this night court and thisdarkness it all hearkened back.
And I truly felt like Maas waswriting it as a homage to Carrie
and her love for those books.

(17:16):
As I said before, that's notconfirmed.
I haven't read that.
But from the very searingsimilarities, I feel like
there's no way that she hasn'tread that other material.

Whittney (17:26):
It is interesting and I wonder now if fans of this
series will find the JacquelineCarey books and then get really
into them as a result.

Devon (17:37):
Who do you believe this series, was written for?
Is it written for an adultaudience or is it more young
adult?
In terms of the sexuality andthe sensuality, it seemed very
tame, especially compared to thevery, very adult content of
Jacqueline Carey.
I'm not recommending for a highschooler or a young adult who's

(17:59):
loving and devouring thorns ofroses to immediately jump over
to, carrie's material, which isvery explicit and very adult.
So I don't want those two to beconfused.
This is not for the sameaudience in my mind, but I
wondered what Maas's audiencewas in particular, because I
wasn't quite sure.

Susan (18:17):
I was not sure either.
In fact, I keep findingconflicting answers to that.
A couple of the reviews I readsaid it is absolutely not for
young adults.
It's very inappropriate.
I read a whole list of triggerwarnings, but then other times
I've seen that it could be foryoung adults, but I wouldn't
want a young adult that I knewreading this.
But it's interesting because Ifeel like it's written as if it

(18:38):
was for a young adult.
And I was talking about it notbeing sophisticated enough.
I feel like it is for a youngadult reader, but it's
inappropriate for them at thesame time, in my opinion.

Whittney (18:48):
So I have what I think is the right answer and I, I
will Google to see if this iswhat other people think too.
But, there's a genre that isbetween young adult and adult
called New Adult.
And as Feyre is 19 in this book,I think it fits very nicely into
this new adult genre where it isable to explore some more adult

(19:14):
level themes, but the characteris still kind of in this, the
cusp of being an adult and thereare things that are gonna be
more complicated than maybe ateenage protagonist would
encounter.
I'm not really sure what the newadult, age range for protagonist
is officially, but I think whenI've seen in the past, it's

(19:35):
anywhere between 18 and 25.
a protagonist fits those ageranges, it can neatly fall
within this category.
I think new adult was created alot of times for women's fiction
or and romance novels.
That's the only time in the pastI've seen that genre referenced
as something between young adultand adult.
And I think it's because thereis, that kind of middle ground

(19:58):
where it's a little more, adultbut not as, overly adult.

Susan (20:03):
So I haven't been into a Barnes and Noble in a while.
Devon, you referenced that thisseries has taken over Barnes and

Devon (20:09):
got an entire shelf, she's got an entire section.

Susan (20:13):
I'm wondering what it's marketed as at Barnes and Noble.
'cause like I said, I've evenlooked on Amazon and I couldn't
find a definitive answer of whothis is being marketed to.
I'm just curious how in storesthey are marketing this.

Whittney (20:25):
is so funny.
I was literally just in Barnesand Noble, last Tuesday, and,
don't remember, and I saw thewhole section, like it's all of
her series, like they have likea little, almost like a

Devon (20:37):
Exactly.
Was this your first, foray intoSarah's work or Have any of you
ready any of her previous work?

Whittney (20:46):
was my first one.

Susan (20:48):
Me too.
Me too.
But now that I know her name'spronounced Maas, it's
interesting that she has ashrine to her, sort of like this
religious following for SarahMaas.

Devon (20:57):
This is actually not my first foray into her writing.
I had another experience similarto you, Whittney, with your
cousin I had a good friend whowas reading Sarah Maas's work, I
think they're the Throne ofGlass series and was like, oh, I
need you to read it.
I need to, to talk to someoneabout it.
I absolutely devoured theseries.
I love it.
So I went and started reading aprequel to the Throne of Glass

(21:20):
series, and, the writing hadmany of the same pitfalls that
experienced with this novel, soI didn't actually complete that
work.
So that was my first sort of,entry into Sarah Maas.
And then I tried this one andthen went the long haul and read
the full novel.
But I had similar qualms withboth.

Susan (21:38):
So I was going to ask what worked for you both or it
didn't work for you.
It sounds like we've alreadycovered a lot of that ground.
but Devon, I do know that youhad mentioned to me offline
about there being a lack ofemotional connection to Feyre.
Would you go into that a littlebit?

Devon (21:55):
pH just wasn't a intriguing.
Heroin for me.
I felt like I knew what Maas wastrying to do.
She wanted to show someone whowas fighting for her family and
had made this deathbed promiseto her mother.
And despite all odds, she hadtrained herself into hunting for
the family.
And she was the only sister thatwas able to step up and Maas was

(22:18):
giving us all the ingredientsto, root for this character and
really care.
But I just didn't find any depthor any reason to latch on as
opposed to the Hunger Gameseries with Kane, that character
and her story, despite otherweaknesses of the overall works,
it came back to her and yourooting for her.

(22:39):
And I just didn't seem to havethat same connection with Feyre.
And I'm not exactly sure why Ijust didn't ever get invested in
her character.

Susan (22:47):
I felt similarly.
We don't know much about her.
I think there just wasn't thatmuch of a backstory that was
built, I guess for me that's,that was the issue.
But, what did work for me?
I listened to the audio as Iusually do.
I thought the audio was verywell done.
It was by a narrator namedJennifer Aada, I believe.
It took me a little bit to getused to her voice.

(23:07):
She had kind of a distinct wayof speaking, but eventually I
really loved her presentation,and I think that was one of the
things that had me wanting tocontinue to read because I
really enjoyed her presentationof the story.
But one thing that I thoughtwould've been nice in my
opinion, I would've liked if thewriting or the narration had
multiple point of views.
Like for me, it would've beenreally interesting if there was

(23:28):
a chapter that then talked aboutTamlin side of things, or
solution side, or evenAmaranthus side.
Maybe I'm just used to nowlistening to books that have
multiple points of views, likeEmily Henry Books, for example,
will alternate chapters.
I just finished a really greatbook called Before I Let Go by
Kennedy Ryan, and there wasmultiple points of use, between
a husband and a wife, and Ireally enjoyed that.

(23:50):
So I thought that could haveworked really well for a story
like this and to adding a littlemore depth into elevating the
experience.
And something else that I wasthinking, and maybe the two of
you if you read hard copy, couldcomment on this.
I heard that there is a map inthe hard copy book, in the front
pages.
That would've been helpful to meas an audio listener because I

(24:10):
couldn't really visualize Ian orwhere things were taking place.
So I think a map would've beenhelpful for me or a list of
characters.
So those of you that had thatsupplementary material, was that
helpful?
Did you use that?

Devon (24:24):
I mean, I always enjoy a good map

Susan (24:27):
Yes, quote Devon.
I always enjoy a good map.

Devon (24:30):
lots of fantasy books have, a little bit of a visual
companion, I always like just tosee it but I don't think it
added for me in any way to theworld of the book

Whittney (24:40):
So I think because I read it in the ebook and it was
like I would've had to flip thewhole way back to the beginning,
I didn't really reference itmuch.
I also am visual like you, but Ididn't, I didn't think I lost
anything from not referencingit.
So I think, you covered that.
I like the deeply flawedcharacters.
one of the things that I likedthat, I would like to ask, what

(25:03):
everybody else thinks about itis I really did like the layers
of foreshadowing the symbolism,the themes, and the world
building and kind of how allthat came together.
I feel like as a Swiftie, SarahJ Maas has like.
Easter, egged Easter, thisentire book.
The more I think about things,the more I go back and I'm like,

(25:25):
what did she say about that?
And then I uncover more thingsand I go down more rabbit holes.
So me just, let me just give youan example that kept percolating
in my brain, but I couldn'tfigure out why.
And then I finally just lookedup some things, to see if it was
just me and it is actuallyapparently foreshadowing for the
future.
the dresser that Feyre paints inthe hovel, as Tamlin called it,

(25:50):
that she and her familyinhabited.
There's a quote in chapter two.
She said, I slung off my outerclothes onto the sagging
dresser, frowning at the violetsand roses.
I'd painted around the knobs ofElaine's dresser, the crackling
flames I'd painted around Nestaand the night sky whirls of
yellow stars standing in forwhite around mine.

(26:11):
I thought that was weird at thetime because she's painting all
these random symbols for hersisters, I'm like, this is
interesting that she's givingthem all symbols, especially,
you that, that seems verydistinct, right?
They have each have distinctthings.
later in the book, Elaine isgardening right?
Later in the book, roses come upin the spring court.

(26:34):
So what, I don't know what'shappening, but I'm gonna guess
that Elaine has some sort of,interaction with the Spring
Court in later in the seriesbecause Roses are a spring
court, symbol.
I have no idea what the flamesfor Nesta mean, but she is a
little bit fiery.
So I don't know if that's,that's something there, but the
night sky, I can't stop thinkingabout the night sky thing

(26:54):
because of how, what happened atthe end of the book.
Right?
With Rah and Rhys, there is somesort of night court situation
that is being foreshadowed here.

Susan (27:02):
Uh, that's funny'cause I can't even remember what
happened at the end of the book.
I think I texted Devon.
I was like, what happened?
I literally can't even, Icouldn't even remember the end.
I read something online and Iwas like, wait, did that happen
in this book?
Or is that in a future book?
The ending to me, I don'tremember a single thing about
it.
The end of the book fizzled outso much for me that I literally
don't remember what happenedafter the Amarantha stuff,

(27:24):
except that she's now a fairy.
I think I wasn't even sure ifthat happened.
I had to have Devon confirm.
For me, it's like, um, I don'tknow, Whittney, I don't, it's so
interesting that you latchedonto this stuff.
'cause like none of that stuff,it's like evaporated completely
out of my mind.

Whittney (27:39):
Okay, so why do you think the book was named A Court
of

Susan (27:42):
I don't know.

Devon (27:44):
I think it sounds really great.

Susan (27:47):
Honestly, I just didn't think that deeply about it.
I don't know.
It was, no, I, I do just wannasay that it's not, I did not
dislike this book while I waslistening to it.
I feel like I was into it.
It wasn't like I had to forcemyself.
I was enjoying it in the moment.
I just feel like I wasn't reallylatching onto what was happening
and when it was over, it wasjust over for me.

(28:08):
But I really appreciate youbringing up all that symbolism.
I think that's reallyinteresting.

Whittney (28:12):
Yeah, I mean, again, I could go down several rabbit
holes, but like the spring courtalone.
Okay.
Their, their weather iseternally spring.
It's like nice, but it's not toonice, you know, it's like better
than bleak winter, but neverreally progresses.
They're all wearing masks.
It's the, you the original signof deception right.
When she gets there.
They all have secrets andthey're not sharing information

(28:33):
with her and it's visibly ontheir faces the whole time.
Like visibly, they're lying toyou on their faces, right?
the roses, obviously Tamlin saysthey represent his parents love,
but that's the stereotypicalflower of love.
It's generic, you know?
So if that's how he's viewinglove, like what is his, version
of love, what is his definitionof love, right?

(28:56):
There are also thorns on roses.
There are all these referencesto thorns.
And, whenever I went back tofind the quote about Pharaoh,
calling herself someone withthorns, because she, I
remembered her saying somethingabout like, she wasn't good
enough for Tamlin'cause she's socovered in thorns or whatever.
She says, who wants someone?
Someone so covered in thorns andthen she describes herself as

(29:17):
thorny, prickly, sour, contrary,but is she or is he?
Right.
So like,, who has thorns?
Who really has thorns?
Is it the sparkly, gorgeous, faeof the Spring Court?
Or is it Feyre?
Right?
thought that was interesting,the play of that.
And I think that that's probablywhere the title comes from.

(29:40):
You Obviously Roses areimportant to the Spring Court,
roses, thorns, which one iswhich, et cetera.
also thought that there was aninteresting, symbol of doorways
and what people do to doorways.
I'll give you the example ofwhenever Tamlin came to collect
Pharaoh.

(30:00):
He crashed through the doorwaywhen as we look back, he did not
need to do that.
He could have entered theirhouse without coming through the
door.
He could have, uh,, opened thedoor.
He could have knocked at thedoor, right?
But he like.
Just destroys the door.
she gets to what feels like thesuper safe place of tamela's

(30:22):
estate, one of her firstinstincts is to lock her door,
right?
And protect her, her herselfwithin that safe fish place,
right?
So there are a lot of like doorthings, you doorways under the
mountain and, and what thoseare.
And, and so that there's a lotof doorway, imagery that is

(30:45):
still like, spinning in mybrain.
I don't know that, that's justlike the surface

Susan (30:51):
That's Very astute of you to pick up on that as you were
reading to me.
I don't know.
I, I didn't strike me.
However, sometimes, a book likethis might constitute a reread.
I don't think I will reread it,but it's like one of those
things where once you have maybesome of the symbolism.
On the radar for you.
If I read it again, I would bepicking up on a lot of these
different things.
Maybe this is the type of bookthat, for me, I needed a reading

(31:12):
guide with it to stop and thinkabout what I had just read, to
kind of take it, intellectualizeit a little bit more.
that could have helped because Ifeel like maybe I was just
getting a little bit lost and Iwasn't really thinking about it
in an intellectual way.

Whittney (31:27):
Again, I mean, it depends on what you want from
your, your reading, right?
I would like to escape, and as aswifty, I love good Easter eggs,

Susan (31:34):
No, I'm not

Whittney (31:35):
maybe I'm looking for them where you, you

Susan (31:38):
Absolutely.
No.
And I'm not saying that thesethings aren't there.
I'm not trying to, take away anycredibility from what you're
saying.
I just didn't specificallynotice those things.
But that is really fascinatingthat that's the way that you
took it.
I think that's, that's reallyinteresting, this whole
conversation as a commentary onhow.
we have one text and threepeople are taking it in
completely different ways.

(31:58):
So, that's the beauty of readingand interpretation and, creates
for good discussion.
One thing I was thinking that wehaven't discussed so far was the
character of Lucian.
I really liked Lucian.
I, again, I don't know if I haveanything intellectual to say
about him, but I really likedhis dynamic with Feyre and I was

(32:19):
just curious, what were yourthoughts on that character and
maybe what he symbolized or whohe represented.
Devon, you and I were speakingabout because he had the red
hair he was more illuminated.
We thought he was kind of likethe Lumiere character from
Eating the Beast.

Devon (32:34):
I was trying to make some connections with beating the
Beast and who could be who..
And in this book, Lucian cameacross as much more interesting
than Tamlin.
You know, that best friend thatis not readily gonna like you.
You sort of have to earn yourway in, earn his trust, earn his
respect.
He's unsure of favorite at thebeginning, and he is flawed and
he doesn't necessarily wannasave this human who's here

(32:58):
suddenly in his life.
The interplay between Pharaohand Lucian was entertaining.
I enjoyed that portion of it.
And that happens a lot of timesin books.
I feel like the main charactercan be a little bit,
uninspiring, but some of thoseside characters are what give it
life.
And so I found that to be thecase with Lucian.

Whittney (33:15):
I also liked Lucian far better than Tamlin.
I'll just throw that out there.
I think for me, one of thereasons he was more interesting,
despite his flaws to me, is thathe felt more genuine.
His responses and emotionalresponses to certain scenarios
felt more believable to mebecause they felt more like

(33:36):
normal, like a human would feelthat way, you know?
Or, that he was human, but youknow what I'm saying.
and in that way I think he feltmore trustworthy throughout the
book because, you know, Tamlinwas just so reserved and so
almost like he was constantlysuperior and he was holding in

(33:57):
his emotions and he was beingkind and gracious as a host, and
in the end, you he was much moredeceptive I thought.

Susan (34:06):
As I was reading these characters, I was picturing
Tamlin exactly as the Beast inBeauty and the Beast, obviously,
or Prince Adam, whatever youwanna think about him.
It's the same way he was in themovie.
He was very prickly, veryreserved.
He had this mask, so to speak,you know, his disguise or, you
know what I'm saying?
his countenance was reallyhiding who he really was, and

(34:26):
then Lucian, I was picturing hima little bit like the Lumiere,
like with the sarcasticcomments, kind of the sidekick
to the beast.
But, while we were talking, itjust made me think back to,
since I was picturing Tamlin somuch as the beast for me, the
title A Court of Thorns andRoses.
I was picturing the rose fromBeauty and the Beast, the
symbolic rose that's losingleaves and obviously there's
some thorns on that Rose.

(34:47):
It was, for me, it was just thesame image from Beauty and the
Beast of what the rose and theThorn represented in that case.
so I think just to answer thequestion from earlier, that's
really what I was picturing itto be, that symbol of the Beauty
and the Beast story that itrepresented, but.

Devon (35:02):
Flowers in general have a finite lifespan.
And this idea of the spell Theydon't have much time.
They don't necessarily have thefreedom to give Feyre all the
details.
So even though they'reintentionally closed lip to
begin with because they don'ttrust her, even when they do
gain her trust part of their,sentence, with the masks and

(35:22):
everything is they can't giveexplicit detail about their
situation.
So what you see on the outsideis not necessarily what's going
on.
You don't have all the details,and that this flower is fading
and there's some urgency to it.
That was definitely all wrappedup in the text.

Susan (35:38):
Yes.
And speaking of Tamlin andFeyre, I was curious what the
two of you thought about theirromance.
Um, you know, we talked abouthow we liked the dynamic between
Lucian and Feyre and theirbanter a bit, and it seemed more
genuine perhaps.
But what did you think aboutTamlin and Feyre?
Was it too predictable?
Did you think it was spicy?
Do we wanna see more?

(35:58):
What'd you think?

Whittney (35:59):
have very distinctive thoughts on this.
Dev, why don't you go first?

Devon (36:03):
It took me a while to get into this book, and once I
finally did, I was beginning tosettle into the Spring Court and
Tamlin and Feyre and the sexualtension that was building
between them.
Tamlin taking Feyre around andshowing his part of the fairy
realm, which was gorgeous, andthey're having this magical
experience.
And Maas was finally winning meover.
And then they have their onenight of passion.

(36:26):
And then literally, at the breakof Dawn, Tamlin tells Feyre that
she's leaving and he's sendingher back to the human world.
It was a huge break.
I was beginning to becomeinvested and the second that
their love was consummated, soto speak, she was immediately
pulled out of it.
But then suddenly that'ssupposed to be her drive to go

(36:47):
back into the world and thismomentous change for her, but it
was just so fast and so abruptlypulled apart, just as soon as
things were beginning to developthat was a stumbling block for
me And obviously Maas did thaton purpose.
That was how she wanted to setup the book and create this
tension between them.
But the world building wasshattered and the relationship

(37:08):
between them was shattered tooquickly for it to hold up for
what comes in the second half ofthe novel.

Whittney (37:14):
Yeah, is not endgame love for sure.
that was never believable for meat all through this.
I was trying to figure out how Iwould describe their love story.
I think it's kind of like, firstlike serious relationship you
have, like a teenager and youknow what that feels like.
Where at the time you think thatthe, it's this like fantastic

(37:35):
thing, but it's because youdon't know like, soulmate love
yet.
And so I think maybe they boththink that this is good, but
it's not good.
You know, this is not a goodlove story.
It's shallow and hollow to me ina way.
felt more interesting sparks andvibes, whenever she had

(37:58):
interactions with Rhys.
And think that that's probablyintentional and that there's
gonna be like sort of lovetriangle in the next book.
But I, I don't know.
I just, I think that the reasonshe survived the Under the
Mountain stuff had more to dowith who she is as a person and
as a survivor of trauma and youbleak circumstances than it did

(38:22):
as a result of how much she andTamlin love each other, if that
makes sense.
think maybe she thinks she loveshim because her love, like the
family that she grew up in andthe love that they show her.
His love is way more than that.
Like way bigger than that, butit's, she just, she doesn't

(38:44):
know.
She doesn't know yet what, whatit's supposed to be, if that
makes sense.
I don't know

Susan (38:50):
It does make sense.
I felt.
And like I agree with what Devonsaid too.
It felt a little anti-climaticlike I was into the love story.
It just ended too soon.
You're right.
It didn't build a strong enoughfoundation that's sustainable.
And so I also agree with whatyou were saying, Whittney, is
it's, maybe it's not end gamelove as you called it.

Devon (39:07):
What did you think of the second half as opposed to the
first half?

Whittney (39:10):
I wasn't surprised because I was like, well it's
gotta have a turn.
Things are too quiet, basically.
and Again, I knew the darkerside of the fairy stuff was
being hinted at with Amaranthaand Rhys, but hadn't come to
play into play yet.
But it felt very Hunger Gamesesque, the level of, trials and

(39:32):
tribulations and then also likethe ultimate puzzle being kind
of easy to solve.
Right.

Devon (39:37):
I solved it within three seconds

Whittney (39:39):
I wondered if it was so easy to solve so that we
would keep reading through therest of it because it was kind
of twisty and dark and weird, toget from original puzzle to end
of the book.
Although again, I was kind ofdisappointed where the book
ended because I thought therewere a lot of interesting Rhys

(40:00):
things that happened and then wejust end and we're happy with
Tamlin again.
And I don't think we're happywith Tamlin Why would we be
happy with Tamlin after this?
Rhys Reese setup is pretty clearthat he's going to be a driving
force for what I would imaginewould be the rest of the series.
I mean, there was so muchattention put on his character
and the tension and thecomplexities between what was
going on with he and, Feyre thatthere's no doubt in my mind that

(40:23):
this is not the end of theirstory or his character.
She's definitely setting it allup for a big exploration yeah.
But again, I was like calm,even, it was like bleak.
I've been kidnapped by someone.
I'm taken to this castle, likewhatever.
And then it got teeth.
It got teeth.
In a weird way.

Devon (40:42):
it got teeth for sure.
Did you, as someone who lovesescapism, what part of escapism
do you enjoy?
I mean, it gets really, reallydark.
Does that continue to act as anescape for you as a reader, or
does that get more challengingor what, what are your thoughts
on that?

Whittney (40:58):
I think the, the darkness does get challenging at
at times and I probably as areader when I'm reading it,
think I don't want it to getthis dark, but I almost feel
like every time the payoff oflike.
Coming out of the darkness isworth it, if that makes sense.

(41:19):
Um, and this one again, I havethe wrapped up happy ending.
I didn't think was as happy aseveryone was pretending it was.
All the characters in the, inthe book were pretending it was
like, but again, it's book oneof a, a series,

Devon (41:33):
Yeah.

Whittney (41:34):
I have to keep that in mind

Devon (41:35):
I mean, on the surface I think it was a happy ending, but
clearly also as the reader, weknow, like some very serious,
character shattering thingshappened at the end and the
choices that Feyre had to make.
So they're setting up that she'snow a different character,
literally a different creaturecompletely than what she was
when she first started.
The second half for me was sucha drudgery to get through,, but

(41:57):
I felt just a little bit like Iwas watching a Scooby-Doo
episode where the bad guycaptures Scooby-Doo and his
crew.
And instead of just doing awaywith them in the first moment
that they can, they talk abouttheir problems or they tell them
how they pulled off the crime.
And this character who has somuch power, Amarantha?
What's the point of her playingwith this human when she could

(42:20):
easily just do away with her andhave no threat at all?
And obviously there would be nonovel.
So there needs to be something.
It's like when in superheromovies, when a human's battling
Superman, there is never reallya true competition between the
two.
I felt like I was just being fedsomething that wasn't
challenging me intellectually inany way, or giving me something

(42:40):
to really invest into this truebattle between them There's not
really a battle, but she makesit one because she doesn't kill
Feyre immediately.

Whittney (42:49):
So one thing that I made a note that I was going to
talk about today, were thelevels of power dynamics
throughout the book.
And I think that for me, myinterpretation of that had
nothing to do with whether ornot she could, it was knowing
she could and not doing it, likenot ending her.
So it was like power move.

(43:10):
Actually there was only one,quote that I had highlighted in
the entire book and only quote Ihighlighted was,"you don't hold
onto power by being everyone'sfriend." Lucian says it.
Which is interesting, right?
about, quarter of the waythrough the book.
But I think that that haseverything to do with some of

(43:30):
these other plot lines in thebook.

Devon (43:32):
For sure, the power disparities, the power dynamics
was a big theme.
I just felt like some of thatwasn't developed in the way that
was truly believable when Maasis constantly talking about the
infinite powers of the fairiesand their tremendous abilities
and then she still is trying tocreate a level playing field
almost between Feyre and the thefairies and the fae world.

(43:56):
There just seemed to be somediscrepancies in what that power
really was

Susan (44:00):
I just didn't think I thought deep enough about it to
notice any of these things.
I feel like, I don't know, I wastaking it in very one note.
It's interesting because Iwouldn't say that I'm a reader
who takes everything so simply,but I just for some reason
didn't, maybe, as Devon said, Ijust wasn't invested enough to
look at it in a multifaceted,multilayered way.
So I was just taking it in veryface value.

(44:22):
So I don't have much to add withthat, but very, very fascinating
insights.

Whittney (44:25):
So if you think about which human was in the
competition, me that kind ofmaybe played a little bit of a
role.
Again, maybe not as asbelievable as you're hoping,
Dev, but if say Elain had beenthe human that was in the
competition, she's not set upfor that.
She's not had to work hard tosupport her family you way that

(44:48):
Feyre has.
And so I think that the onlyhuman we've met in this entire
story who could have survivedthe under the mountain situation

Devon (44:56):
mm-Hmm.

Whittney (44:57):
Feyre.
And so I don't know if that'sthe, if that's enough of a
difference, but don't know ifAmarantha was just discounting
Feyre as a human cause she wascomparing her to other humans.

Devon (45:11):
I think that's what the setup was, that she was, not
giving her the credit, wasdiscounting her abilities.
And then Feyre was going to showher what humans are really made
of.
I think that was clearly thepoint, but that whole second
half of the book really justkilled it for me because I like
escapism but the darkness andthe slog of the battles that she
had to do and these puzzles andthe whole thing, it wasn't

(45:34):
enjoyable for me and the payoffwasn't there.
'cause I absolutely agree.
I've read novels that have gonesuper dark and it's been
challenging me for to pushthrough it.
But then when I did the payoffwas worth it in the end.
But I didn't feel that way forthis novel.

Whittney (45:47):
Yeah, I mean, honestly, it's one of the things
that I haven't liked about someof the fairy books that I've
read in the past, which have allbeen young adult ones.
Because there's always thiselement of torture, like the
fairies torture the humans.
But for some reason this onewasn't as bad for me as other
ones I've read with similarscenarios.

Susan (46:07):
Well I think that about sums it up.
So overall, how would both ofyou rate the A Court of Thorns
and Roses out of five stars,five being the highest?
I'm using our Good Reads ratingscale.

Whittney (46:18):
All right.
Well, I feel like I should startbecause it's gonna go downhill
from my rating, I think.
so on Good reads, I gave it afive, but it's probably really a
4.75 for me, total.
But it's generally because ofthe layers of deeper things that
I picked up on that are going onor that I'm interpreting.
Maybe they're not actually goingon, Easter eggs, things like

(46:41):
that, the flawed characters,'cause I just, you know, can't
wait to see flawed characters,tension, who what's gonna happen
down the road in this series,but I assume that that's the
highest rating this book willsee on this podcast.
So.

Susan (46:56):
Do you wanna go next?

Devon (46:57):
I was feeling very generous the day that I rated it
on good Reads, and I gave it athree, I feel like, more closer
probably to a two and a halfwhen I really started to think
about it.
I think it's a good gateway forreaders to get into fantasy.
I see what Maas was trying todo, and I appreciate her
efforts.
Do I think it could have been alot stronger?
Yes.
Will I continue to read?
No, but I would love to hearyour recaps as opposed to me

(47:21):
going through and continuing toread the series.

Susan (47:24):
Right.
I, I rank, rank it similarly toDevon.
I gave it a three on good reads.
Maybe it's more like a 2.75.
So here's the thing.
I was enjoying it as I waslistening to it, but I think I
just wasn't taking it in asdeeply as say you were Whittney.
So for me, like without havingthat deeper connection, it was
hard to leave the lastingimpression.
Whereas potentially if I wouldread it again or, you know, now

(47:46):
that I have spent a little moretime discussing symbols and
things, I might take it into adeeper way.
I might connect with it more.
I do think it's a good gatewaybook.
It was fun at a lot of points,especially the first half.
And I recognize that otherpeople are different from me, so
they could take it in adifferent way.
They might enjoy it a lot.
So, yeah, I think three isprobably a fair assessment for

(48:08):
me.
It wasn't my favorite book, butit, I still liked it.
but it could have been better,it could have been stronger for
me.
It could have left a morelasting impression.

Whittney (48:16):
mean, I'm an escapist reader.
This was great escapist book.
wouldn't say it's light'causethere's tons of trauma themes
throughout.
Right.
But it's, it's accessibleescapism, I guess is what I am
trying to

Susan (48:30):
I feel like, I did escape in the first half.
I think Then it just didn'tmaintain that level of escapism
for me.

Whittney (48:37):
yeah.

Devon (48:38):
I like to escape as much as the next person, but I need
something deep and richlylayered to escape into, and this
just wasn't doing it for me

Whittney (48:45):
Well, I have all of the books.
I bought them all, ebook formafter I was like 50% of the way
through this one.
just bought literally all ofthem as a package.
It So I will let you know.

Devon (48:58):
Well, we look forward to hearing it, Whittney.
Absolutely.
I feel like your interpretationof the books and your
description of them will be agreat thing for me to listen to
in the future, and I lookforward to hearing your, overall
review of the

Susan (49:10):
Yes, I agree with exactly what you just said, Devon, like
Whittney, the way that youdescribed them and the way that
you interpreted them while I waslistening, I was like, damn,
that sounds pretty good.
When I was reading them, Iwasn't feeling or taking it in
in the same way.
So like I said, it is veryinteresting to hear different
interpretations because the waythat you describe it, it sounds
really good.

(49:30):
so I guess that answers thequestion that you will be
continuing with the series.
Devon, I agree with you that Idon't think I'm gonna read
further.
However, I really am excited tohear about them through you,
Whittney.
Uh, I would love to hear whathappens next.
Also.
I said this to Devon multipletimes when we were texting.
I would really like to watch theseries, or if it was a movie or

(49:51):
something.
apparently right now it's stillin development through Hulu or
with Hulu.
I don't know why there's apause.
They're not actually filming ityet, but supposedly we're going
to get this on the screen atsome point.
I really would be interested inwatching to see how the
characters were portrayed.
So for me, I'd like to continuemaybe through other people or by
watching, but I don't think Iwill be reading or listening.

(50:12):
Even though the audio narrator Ithought did a terrific job.
She really did.

Whittney (50:15):
Yeah, I'll just, I'll do all of the above and then
I'll

Susan (50:18):
Yes.
And you know what else was cool?
Devon had pointed out to me thata lot of fans have made fan art.
If you Google A Court of Thornand Roses fan art, there's some
really neat illustrations outthere.
Like I was enjoying flippingthrough the pictures and that to
me made it more fun.
I enjoy looking at differentartistic representation of the
characters and just the way thatpeople viewed the story and were

(50:40):
very excited about it in theirpaintings and drawings.
I thought that was pretty cool.
So again, I think potentiallythe artistic representation of
it on the screen or through artor something is interesting to
me more than the actual writing.

Whittney (50:52):
Yeah.
Well, I also feel like there area lot of people who are huge
fans of this book series whohave read the books multiple
times.
And so I think it probablyinspires that in some people.
Right?
Or people who enjoy like a goodreread.
I've very rarely reread books,so, if this one inspires that, I
will know.
It's good.

(51:12):
That will be a good marker for

Devon (51:13):
There's a thirst for this subject matter for sure.
congratulations to Sarah Maasfor capitalizing on it because I
think between the streamingservices having just absolutely
phenomenal high level contentthat they're producing.
People want intrigue, they wantfairies, they want escapism.
They want magic.
They want torture.
They want love.

(51:34):
And she's trying to give us allof this in the book, and I think
it's true.
They could really develop.
This further in a series.
And so I will be interested tosee how that turns out.
And I think that, it's theperfect time for it.
The audience is there.
Congratulations Maas on thataccomplishment already, just
having her work into productionso soon after its publication.

Susan (51:55):
Yeah.
Come on Hulu.
Let's get on that.
I.
Well, Whittney, I still thankyou for picking this book
though, because I would'venever, like I said, this wasn't
on my radar.
I don't think it's something Iwould've picked up.
I do appreciate having exposureto different things, so whether
or not it was my favorite, Ithink it's still a learning
experience.
I've learned a lot just indiscussing this with you and
maybe learned about my lack ofbackground in fantasy and the

(52:16):
darker side of fantasy.
So, you know, um, I appreciateyou for, uh, bringing this into,
into our podcast world,Whittney.

Whittney (52:26):
Anytime I just have to keep you, uh, relevant with pop
culture things, right?
That if you're out, if you'reout, to brunch, you and somebody
brings it up, you'll be like,wait,

Susan (52:35):
exactly.
That's what I was gonna say,

Whittney (52:37):
Devon, we wanna thank you for joining us today.
We love hearing yourperspectives on everything that
we're reading and watching.
If you enjoyed today's episode,check out our past book club
discussions with Devon.
We discussed Wish You Were Hereby jodi Picoult, in our season
two conversation with her.
And one of our most popularepisodes is Mad Honey by Jodi

(52:59):
Picoult and Jennifer FinneyBoylan, which we discussed de
with Devon in season three.
So you can check out thoseepisodes in our archives.

Susan (53:06):
You can also check out our discussion we did with Devon
in last season about Netflix'sPersuasion.
And we are in the market foranother potential movie to
review with Devon.
So let us know what, what shouldwe watch and review next.

Devon (53:18):
I wanna thank you Whittney and Susan for bringing
me on for this discussion.
I really look forward to gettinginto it with you, and I
understand that I seem to holdmy books up to such a high
standard.
I just wanna love it so much andI want it to succeed so much so
that when it doesn't, the fallfor me is a little bit harder.
But I enjoy and respect theopinions from you, Whittney and

(53:40):
Susan.
So thank you so much for gettinginto it with me.

Whittney (53:42):
Yeah, absolutely.

Susan (53:43):
Well, we'd love to hear what you all thought of today's
episode and how you would rateand review ACOTAR.
So message us on social media,drop us a line through email and
thank you so much for listening.

Whittney (53:52):
Talk to you later.

Devon (53:54):
Bye.
Join us next time when we pickup where we left off and
continue the conversation.
Check us out on Instagram atSusan and Whitney or send us an
email at susanandwhitney atgmail.
com.
That's S U S A N the word and WH I T T N E Y.
Our awesome music is by Offshaneand our scripting and editing is

(54:17):
by us.
Talk to you later.
Yay, I think we did a good job.