October 24, 2023 • 54 mins
Susan and Whittney discuss the 2022 Netflix movie adaptation of Persuasion, based on the novel by Jane Austen, with guest Devon Hamilton.
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Susan (00:31):
Whitney, you're the kind of friend who I can share an
appreciation of Jane Austenmovie adaptations with, which is
why we're reviewing the latestremake of Persuasion today.
Whittney (00:40):
Yes, Susan, and I can still remember watching Jane
Austen adaptations in your oldapartment.
I think the last one we watched2008 Sense and Sensibility.
And Susan, I love that you'rethe kind of friend who shares my
love of an actor who reallynails a Jane Austen leading man.
I mean, come on, Colin Firth?
(01:01):
Hugh Grant, James McAvoy, yourfavorite, Johnny Lee Miller,
Matthew McFadden, and then thisadaptation gives us Cosmo Jarvis
and Henry Golding! Yay!
Susan (01:12):
Ooh, I love hearing about James McAvoy.
My heart just fluttered.
Uh, yes.
Love being reminded of all thoseleading men, Whitney.
And on today's episode, we'll bereviewing Netflix's Persuasion,
starring Dakota Johnson withspecial guest, not in the movie,
but in today's show, my sister,Devin Hamilton.
And listeners will rememberDevin has joined us in season
(01:33):
one for the inspiring yourchildren to read episodes in
season two for the wish you werehere book club episode.
And most recently this seasonfor the mad honey book club
episode.
So welcome Devin.
Devon (01:44):
Hi, thanks for having me back.
Whittney (01:45):
Yay, Devie!
Susan (01:47):
Yay Dev, glad to have you.
Whittney (01:49):
For those who are not familiar, Persuasion was the
last novel completed by JaneAusten, and it was published in
1817.
Persuasion tells the story of asecond chance at love between
Old Flames, Anne Elliot, andCaptain Frederick Wentworth.
Eight years earlier, Anne was inlove with Wentworth, but was
persuaded by her family to givehim up because he was without
(02:12):
rank and fortune.
Susan (02:13):
When the story begins, we learn that the Elliott's once a
respected titled landowningfamily are now in a bad spot as
the family patriarch and hisfather, Sir Walter Elliott has
lavishly overspent andsquandered all the family money.
The family realizes that inorder to live more affordably,
they must relocate to a houseand bath and rent the family
(02:34):
estate Kellynch hall.
Whittney (02:36):
There are a lot more nuanced plot points that we're
glazing over here, butbasically, when Wentworth
returns from his time at seawith prize money and social
acceptability because of hisnaval rank, he is now considered
an eligible suitor.
But there are roadblocks alongthe way, as there is another
lady vying for his attention,and a lack of transparency and
(02:56):
misunderstandings between he andAnne that temporarily keep them
apart.
Susan (03:01):
And must overcome the advances of her cousin, William
Elliot, whose true character andmotives we don't see in the film
and rediscover the strength ofher love for Wentworth, which
has been there all along.
Whittney (03:12):
The film is directed by Carrie Cracknell, with a
screenplay by Ron Bass and AliceVictoria Winslow.
It's loosely based on Austin'soriginal story.
So, what did everybody think ofthis modern adaptation
Devon (03:26):
I found this adaptation generally enjoyable and pretty
featherlight.
in that it evaporated from mymind pretty quickly upon its
conclusion.
But it was diverting andentertaining during its runtime
and overall I liked it.
Susan (03:41):
Well, in preparation for our review, I've been reading
and listening to various reviewsand.
All the reviews have been amixed bag.
Some have found this adaptationjoyful.
I even heard the term gentle,whereas other Austin purists are
like outraged by howanachronistic it is.
But in my opinion, I thoughtthat was why I enjoyed it.
(04:03):
and I have to be transparentthat I haven't read the source
material, but I am familiar withprevious adaptations, though
it's been a really long time.
so I came at this portrayal withan unbiased perspective, And I
thought it was really fresh andfunny, clever, and very
aesthetically pleasing.
So, I'd love to hear your takealso Whitney, but you know, I
didn't care if it was a hundredpercent accurate to the original
(04:25):
text or character.
I thought this was a freshretelling for a more modern
audience.
And you know, even though somethings were kind of unbelievable
to me, like it's hard to believethat Dakota Johnson's and Elliot
could still be single.
Cause she's like so stunninglybeautiful, but considering she's
still mourning Wentworth.
Maybe we can believe it.
And She does say in the film,I'm waiting to fall in love.
(04:47):
so I can appreciate that
Whittney (04:49):
So, I'm going to address what you just said about
Dakota Johnson because she is agorgeously stunning woman, and I
totally agree with you.
But I will point out that thereare references both in the book
and in the movie to the factthat she was a pretty highly
coveted match.
Charles Musgrove had originallyproposed to her, and the family
(05:11):
is sad that She did Not accept,right?
And so she had at least thosetwo proposals that we know
about.
But again, she's waiting to fallin love.
I will say that Persuasion is myfavorite Austen book.
So any adaptation that, is aPersuasion adaptation is gonna
have pretty high stakes with me.
(05:32):
But this one, I really enjoyed.
I loved the fresh take onlanguage.
I think that this story has...
Not been one that's felt superaccessible in previous
adaptations, And therefore it'sa lesser known Austen novel,
when I think it should be aswell known as my second favorite
Austen novel, Pride andPrejudice.
(05:55):
Most people understand the plotof Pride and Prejudice and can
even quote some lines from that,even if they're not Austen
fanatics like we are.
and I think this really opens.
this book up to being moreaccessible to non Austin focused
audiences.
And another thing that I reallyliked about this adaptation is
(06:18):
that it showed, I'm gonna saywhere Anne fits and where she
doesn't, it showed her naturalrelationships with the
characters, I think, better thansome of the previous ones.
And as an example she doesn'treally fit in with her family,
and I don't think it wasglaringly obvious in previous
adaptations that that's thecase, but here, they couldn't be
(06:38):
any more different.
She has depth and substance, andher family does not.
You see why Lady Russell tellingher not to accept Wentworth's
proposal would have made such animpression on her, right?
Because Lady Russell is a stableand wise influence, especially
when compared with her family.
See why she's so close toLouisa, And why she would
(06:59):
consider giving Wentworth up toLouisa, right?
because she's very bonded to theMusgroves, even though they're
her, essentially her in laws,right?
Her sister's in laws.
I thought that this reallyhighlighted those points.
But, I will have to say, I thinkthat one of the most romantic
scenes of any book ever isWentworth's letter to Anne.
(07:23):
And I feel like, potentiallyother adaptations may have
handled that one a little bitbetter than this.
This, because there was so muchexcitement, it didn't really
stand out as much as maybe ithad in previous adaptations.
Susan (07:37):
I want to just say that I don't even remember the previous
adaptations.
I have a brief, you know, verydistant memory.
I can remember when it was out,the masterpiece theater ran a
series of all the Austin novels.
I want to say this might've beenback like in 2008, I remember
public television had a seriesand I watched it, but now I
can't remember the letterwriting scene.
And so now I'm kind of curious.
Either one of you have anythingto say about why this version
(08:00):
was more lackluster thansomething that was previously
shown in a, in a, film or in thebook.
Devon (08:06):
I first became familiar with Persuasion when I was
watching the BBC classics withyou and Whitney.
It, This one came out, thePersuasion through the BBC came
out in 2007 and it starred theincredible Sally Hawkins.
And this was the first time I'dever seen Hawkins on screen and
I remember being captivated byher and the whole production.
(08:29):
She has this I don't know, thisregalness about her, this sort
of just quiet reserve that'svery powerful and she was very
different from any other heroinethat I had seen before.
She didn't have really any flashto her, she wasn't glamorous,
but there was something thatjust, you were drawn to And her
(08:51):
character, was very good andkind and hard working and had an
intelligence and a quality toher.
So in that way, she sort of mademe think of a Jane Eyre type
where she was good and she justbelieved in, in helping others
and trying to do the rightthing.
And so she had that sort ofweight to her character, and I
(09:15):
enjoyed it so much that thatmovie inspired me to seek out
the original novel and read it.
And as Whitney said thatPersuasion was her favorite.
I remember when I read it at thetime, I believed that Persuasion
was my favorite Austen too.
That I really, I really enjoyedthe novel and I thought that it
should be.
More well known and more popularthan it was, but it's been such
(09:38):
a long time between my viewingand my reading that I came to
this movie adaptation with anopen mind.
I believe that people returnagain and again to Austin
adaptations, not for it's lineby line faithfulness to the
novel, but just that essence,that kernel of the story that
Austin has, that everyone lovesa good story.
(10:00):
Everyone comes for a good story.
So I was just.
Approaching the movie in thatway really had no moorings to
the original anymore to reallybase it off of.
So I, was just going to take itfor what it was.
Overall, I think that it was anenjoyable night spent in an
Austin inspired world.
And although some of creativechoices were a little silly,
(10:23):
overall, was really pleasant.
Susan (10:25):
I love what you said about the Austin essence.
I think that's my favorite lineso far tonight.
the Austin essence and I, I alsowant to live in an Austin
inspired world.
So there's that.
But I wanted to say that I knowthere was a lot of naysayers,
like if you Google this movie,the rotten tomatoes comes up at
(10:45):
like, I could be wrong, but it'slike 22%.
it's really bad.
And I was like, so perplexed.
Cause I.
Also enjoyed it.
So you know, I was just thinkingfor any naysayers out there, I
think it is important toremember that this novel is
loosely based or excuse me, thismovie is loosely based on the
novel.
It even says that in the openingcredits, like it's based on,
it's not, you know, this ahundred percent true portrayal.
(11:07):
it's not supposed to be.
exactly a hundred percentAdaptation.
So when analyzing any film orstory, I think it's important to
consider who the intendedaudience is.
And I believe the intendedaudience is for a younger, new
to Austin crowd.
So probably like the samemillennials watching Bridgerton.
It's not supposed to be thistraditional masterpiece.
(11:27):
Classic theater.
So I think that this, you know,it is like a modern fresh take.
and I think that's okay becausethat's what it's supposed to be.
And I think this film tries todo with the source material,
what Clueless did with Emma, butdifferently because instead of
setting the film in modern timeswith the same basic plot, this
story is still set in the 1800s,but with the modern dialogue and
(11:50):
references.
So it's a little differentthere, but.
That is apparently what a lot ofviewers did not like because it
was so anachronistic and theyfelt it was inauthentic.
So how did the two of you feelabout the way that the movie
tried to modernize a film set inits original time?
I'm sure there's a term forthat.
I don't know what that term is,but was it effective for you?
Devon (12:11):
A few things didn't work for me in that Anne Elliot
sneaking away with her bottlesof wine behind her back and her
crying alone in her room andher, in her bathtub.
I just sort of, I, I was takingit for what it was, took
everything with a grain of salt,but thinking to myself that.
(12:33):
In a modern rom com, a woman isseen soaking in her luxury
bathtub in the evenings with herwine and her tears and her, uh,
her romance book.
but in Anne Elliot's time, itwould take quite a lot of effort
to to draw up a hot bath.
So seeing her taking a hot bathin her dark room alone at night,
(12:55):
I don't know, just sort of mademe...
Chuckle that it just didn't seemvery practical for her to be
doing that to be lounging in thebathtub crying like she was, I
Enjoyed that it was trying toappeal to a different audience.
I enjoyed it was trying to takea fresh take I did think some of
the choices were very creative.
So it just sort of made me laughand I moved on from it
Whittney (13:18):
I will just add on to that I wasn't as bothered by
those things.
the drinking of the wine, andthe yelling out the window to
Wentworth, and...
I did like the part where shewas, filling us in on the
conversation she was about tohave with Mary.
I thought that was reallyentertaining.
But, can we talk about therabbit?
The rabbit was weird.
(13:39):
That rabbit would never havesurvived in that household.
Definitely would've escaped,would've been eaten by
something.
Would've been cooked by someonefor dinner.
There's no way she could've hada pet rabbit, I just need to
throw that out
Devon (13:54):
It just, yeah, the rabbit, you just wonder, really,
is she carrying this around?
do people do this?
that's what I was just thinkingokay.
They just sort of replaced wherea character would normally have
a cat, they replaced it with arabbit.
I think it just was supposed tobe whimsical with something for
her to make her laugh.
Susan (14:12):
As pets.
I know one of my, my oldermates, best friends had a rabbit
named bun and bun lived in theapartment with all these girls
and bun would just be hoppingaround.
And I remember bun was atparties.
Everyone would be passing bunaround.
I'm just saying, it's maybe notas common as a cat, But, I don't
think it's like out of thequestion that someone has a pet
(14:33):
rabbit.
Whittney (14:33):
Not today, it's
Susan (14:34):
it was too weird.
Whittney (14:36):
today.
Devon (14:36):
random.
Susan (14:37):
I mean, yeah, but this movie is not.
Yeah, there are some, uh,different references and things
like we already talked about,like the timeline, the times
don't line up, I guess, but Idon't know.
That didn't bother me too much,
Whittney (14:50):
So, okay let's say, like Devin pointed out, the
bathtub, right?
it would take how many servants,and how much time, or whatever.
But they're living on theMusgrove estate, right?
Charles and Mary are livingthere with their kids, so, maybe
there are enough servants to goaround.
It is...
Possible that somebody couldhave drawn her that bath, right?
(15:11):
Or,
Susan (15:11):
although it doesn't feel like in the bathtub in her
clothes.
I feel like she was just like inthe bathtub, like just sitting
Devon (15:17):
Oh, I don't know if she was in your clothes.
Susan (15:18):
sure.
I think she was just like in thebathtub, like, just sitting in
Devon (15:21):
just in there, like, crying, and I'm thinking to
myself, like, what time is it?
Is it at night?
And how many servants justwalked upstairs carrying loads
of, or jars of water to fillthis bathtub for you?
Whittney (15:35):
right.
Susan (15:35):
I actually would love to talk about the bathtub sequence
and also just kind of the wholeopening sequence in general.
So thought a perfect example ofhow the film modernized the
character of Anne Elliot And herstruggle to get over her breakup
with Wentworth is in the firstsequence.
So the whole film starts withthis, this picturesque sweeping
landscape.
One of the most beautiful scenesin the film in the scene, Anne
(15:57):
and Wentworth are like fawningover each other in the meadow
with the breeze blowing throughthe grasses and Ann's voiceover,
I think gives one of the bestlines to start the film.
I almost got married once shesays, and then it cuts to her
saying, and now I'm single andthriving.
Then it cuts to her likeabsolutely miserable.
and she says, I spend timedrinking fine wines.
(16:17):
We see her slugging wine out ofa bottle.
She says, enjoying warm baths.
We see her crying in the bathtuband she says, lying face down in
my bed.
And we see her likecatatonically face planted on
her bed crying.
Next she says, and I love thatsequence though, because I think
we can.
I'll relate to that dev.
I was actually thinking aboutthe movie that we love.
(16:37):
Something's got to give whenDiane Keaton breaks up with the
Jack Nicholson character andshe's just like, they show her
going through the stages ofgrief and she's like sobbing in
the shower.
And I always love movies thatreally show you what it's
actually like.
So I could kind of appreciate,you know, going through a
breakup in Austin times, but Idon't think it's out of the
question that someone would begrieving.
(16:58):
in those ways, whether or notthe bath is realistic.
I don't know.
But then I loved how sheintroduced her family saying
next who needs romance when onehas family.
And then we get introduced tothis snobbish, pretentious
family, her father's in thislong floral jacket, admiring
self in the mirror while he'spampered by butlers.
All the living room pictures arepictures of himself.
(17:21):
And Ann says, my father nevermet a reflective surface he
didn't like.
And by the way, she turns to thecamera to say this.
So I thought that whole firstsequence was so humorous and
refreshing.
I love that she was grieving ina modern, relatable way.
And just the way the film usedthe irony and the tongue in
cheek humor.
I thought it was very effective
Whittney (17:41):
Yeah, on that note, Susan one thing that was really
unique about this film, or atleast for an Austin adaptation,
but is very common in realityshows, which are some of my
favorite things to watch, is thebreaking of the so called fourth
wall, right?
The wall behind the camera.
When Anne Elliot is speaking orsmiling or winking directly to
(18:03):
the viewer, it's the breaking ofthis.
fourth wall.
It's as if we're having aprivate conversation or sharing
inside jokes with her.
And so the opening sequence youjust described, Susan, is an
example of this.
And so I'm wondering what theboth of you thought of the
effectiveness of this becauseI've thoughts.
Devon (18:22):
Yes I was in the reviews and the preparation for this
discussion.
I also saw a lot of peoplecommenting about this and they
thought it was trying to rip offFleabag, which is a very funny,
but crass romantic, I don't knowif I could call it a romantic
sure what I would call it.
Just, a portrayal of a womangoing through her life and
(18:45):
trying to figure things out.
But she's constantly winking atthe camera.
She's constantly talking to thecamera and that style has become
extremely popular in the pastseveral years.
And I think people really enjoyit because they feel like the
audience feels like they'rebeing let in on a secret and
they're on the inside circle andeveryone always wants to be on
(19:05):
the inner circle.
So in, for this film, I reallyenjoyed the way.
that Dakota Johnson speaksdirectly into the camera and
gives you the little side eyeand gives you the knowing looks
because you suddenly youautomatically become connected
to her.
You're rooting for her.
You feel like she's your friend.
And so I think that's veryeffective.
(19:26):
And Johnson, as we said, is sopretty.
She's so easy to watch on screenthat it lets you really forgive
any weaknesses of the filmbecause Her face is so perfect
to look at and so you're justreally enjoying that for a while
But the breaking of the fourthwall I always enjoy it when it's
employed well and I thought thatthere were many effective
(19:47):
moments in the movie and I eventhink as the film went on Some
of that fell away a little bit,and I almost wished it continued
to stay as prominent As it didin the beginning of the movie,
but I understand they weretrying to get you to Be swept
up.
Once Wentworth comes back.
(20:07):
onto the scene.
Those devices were pulled back abit, but I sort of wish there
was more of those to continue todevelop.
Towards the end, some of theother characters that pop up on
screen.
Susan (20:18):
And I also really enjoyed this I thought it was very
humorous.
Actually, I know we're going totalk further a little bit later
about the casting, but I thoughtDakota Johnson was great at
doing this technique.
Previously when I had seen her.
which is not very much,honestly, I think I watched one
or two of the 50 shades moviesAnd kind of.
gave up on those.
(20:39):
And I saw another movie that shedid.
I cannot even remember the nameof it, if that tells you
anything about it, but I wasn'tever super impressed with her.
acting chops or anything likethat.
And in here, this movie, I waslike, wow, I really am enjoying
her.
I think she actually is quitefunny.
And is delivering this soeffectively.
So I enjoyed the breaking of thefourth wall.
And I also really enjoyed thescene where Anne was.
(21:01):
Taking us the viewer through allthe mementos she'd saved from
her courtship with Wentworth,kind of like, how we would do
that.
And nowadays, like maybe yousave items from an ex boyfriend
in the shoe box under your bed.
She showed us the playlist thathe had made her.
She called it a playlist, butreally it was just like a bundle
of sheet music.
I thought that was quite funny.
(21:23):
and then she showed us a lock ofhis hair, a lock of his horse's
hair, which was It's kind of
Whittney (21:28):
What was with the horse's hair?
I still don't understand.
She didn't know him very well.
Susan (21:34):
yeah, she's like, I don't really know your horse, but
maybe like back then you like,you actually would kind of know
someone's horse.
They're like, cause they get toand from on that horse.
But I thought that was, that wasreally humorous.
And I just liked that wholesequence a lot.
I felt like watching that and afew of the other lines, like
there was one point she wasjoking with her sister, Mary,
she was like crying into apillow and Mary walked in and
(21:56):
she was like, Oh, lady Macbeth,like act four or scene two or
whatever.
And then she was.
like, my sister will buy this.
And her sister was like, Oh,okay.
There was just so many effectivescenes.
And I was smiling throughout it.
So I thought it was just reallycool to see an 1800s woman going
through experiences like the waywe would.
So I felt really like I couldconnect to her and I didn't try
(22:19):
to find fault with.
Any of the references being outof date or the style, like I
personally just really enjoyedit for what it was.
And side note, Whitney, do youremember that you created a
breakup playlist for me?
It was not sheet music.
It was a CD
Whittney (22:35):
It was a missed opportunity to send you just a
stack of sheet music, lookingback.
But yes, I do remember
Susan (22:41):
future.
I mean, I would prefer not to gothrough another breakup, but
it's bound to happen, but Iwould prefer a stack of sheet
music.
That'd be great.
Yes.
Whittney (22:51):
Yes, I do remember because I think that you said
you kept it because I rememberthe breakup I sent it to you for
and I think you referenced it orshared it with somebody else
after, even after that was over.
Susan (23:06):
Well, I remember that it was, it was a long playlist and
you, said that you were takinglike hours on it trying to
figure out the songs and Natewas finally like, make up your
mind.
Just pick these songs, narrow itdown.
Whittney (23:18):
it's a very delicate situation when you are trying to
soothe your friend's soul aftersomething devastating like a
breakup and he did not seem tounderstand that nuance.
Susan (23:30):
Well, thank you Whitney.
So, what did you think?
You said that you had thoughtsabout the breaking of the fourth
wall.
Whittney (23:35):
So I thought it was particularly effective to help
with characterization.
and I will give you the exampleof Mary as where I thought it
was perfect.
Because there are elements ofMary's character that I think
are hard to Have come out in ascene unless the person is
being, is overacting or being alittle Two on the nose, if you
(23:59):
know what I'm saying.
so whenever she's telling usHere are the things that Mary's
gonna do when I walk in, right?
When she and her rabbit, walkin.
Which, don't get me started onthe rabbit.
again.
But
Susan (24:10):
Don't let you
Whittney (24:10):
Rabbit that survived a carriage ride?
No.
Anyway.
Susan (24:14):
go down the rabbit hole,
Whittney (24:15):
Uh,
Devon (24:16):
really walk in with the rabbit I've, even, I
Whittney (24:18):
She
Devon (24:19):
guess I the rabbit.
Whittney (24:20):
it to Charles And Charles and Mary's house, if you
again.
She literally walks into thehouse with It I'm like, how did
the rabbit come back?
So anyway, she travels with therabbit Devin.
She travels with the
Devon (24:32):
I know she, I know the came out of the carriage and
first time I laughed at it.
When he handed her the rabbitout of the carriage, but I
didn't know.
Yeah,
Susan (24:39):
centric, it's a centric, appreciate these details.
It's funny.
Devon (24:44):
Yeah, it's funny.
Whittney (24:45):
But, so when she's introducing us to Mary on
screen, And she says this iswhat Mary does every time you
come, it got to the point wherewe, we knew Mary so well after
those conversations, after shedemonstrated, how well she did
know Mary?
and Mary on cue was like, Oh,I'm on my deathbed and my in
laws hate me.
that's why they sent me flowers,et cetera.
(25:07):
Then, later, when Mary's beingridiculous, it doesn't need to
be explained anymore.
whenever Anne hurts her foot,and, she's limping out of the
forest, Charles carries Mary thewhole way home.
Do you remember that part?
Didn't need that to be, like,why is Charles carrying Mary Did
I miss something?
Did something happen?
You're like, no, that's justMary's character, right?
Devon (25:26):
She can't walk for long distances or be outside.
Susan (25:30):
No, you're right, Whitney.
That particular introduction ofher sister was hilarious, how
she knew to a T, like the threethings that her sister was going
to do or say.
I
Whittney (25:38):
That sets you up for later, so that you don't need as
much information about thecharacters later because she's
just giving it, that informationto you up front in the fourth
wall.
So I thought the fourth wall wasreally effective there, because
then it opened the actress thatplays Mary up to be, a comedic
genius, and we would get it.
Devon (25:59):
Yeah, she's really strong.
Susan (26:01):
No, she, she was she was a hidden gem in this movie.
She was
Devon (26:06):
she was a scene stealer.
Susan (26:07):
For sure.
Yeah.
So Whitney, you talked earlierabout how this is your favorite
Austin book, I guess, Devin, youtoo.
I'm not sure how recently eitherof you have read this, that you
remember between the film andthe text?
I know I've read in severalreviews that a lot of key
details were left out mostnoticeably.
more information about Anne'scousin, William Elliot actually
(26:27):
being a villain, which theydidn't really his character was
just definitely not, threedimensional in this story.
I feel like we didn't reallyknow what was going on with him.
So I don't know if you couldenlighten us a little bit more
on some details that were leftout from the book that were kind
of glaring.
Whittney (26:43):
So, I feel like one of the ways the book doesn't
translate to an entertainingmovie is that it's a lot of,
cerebral, longing.
the page is full of just peoplelonging for the past and
rethinking decisions.
And it's not super visual thatway or super full of activity.
(27:04):
One of the main differences Ican think here is...
During the famous letter scene,I'm pretty sure in the book they
were just entirely in theMusgroves drawing room.
it was just a big group of themin the drawing room.
And in one corner went withwriting letters.
In another corner, Anne iswriting, letters.
(27:27):
The Musgroves are all there.
Both, Charles parents andsisters and Mary and Charles and
the kids, cause that was a thingthey did.
It was normal, we're all in adrawing room together, we just
hang out and all do our ownthings in the same giant room
together.
Whereas, it wouldn't maybe comeoff as accessible in this movie.
(27:49):
So, they changed the setting,they made it make sense for
these conversations to beoverheard while he was writing,
and in the book, I feel likeshe's alone when she reads the
letter, but she's alone In aprivate home and here we have
her reading this, and thenimmediately running out into the
(28:10):
street because she's in the inn,right?
So it's it was a little bit of adifferent vibe.
Because in the book, it's muchmore just regular life.
She's just living her regularlife, doing the normal things.
She just is miserable inside.
And in a book, that comes offwell.
In a movie, it's not superexciting.
(28:31):
Just to have someone unhappy andlonging the whole book.
So I think for me that's thebiggest difference.
And you brought up WilliamElliot.
I actually thought he was farmore charming in this adaptation
than he has been when I readthe, book and in past
adaptations that I've watched.
I'm trying to think if I've readsomething prior to the 2007, or
(28:54):
I mean watched something priorto the 2007 adaptation.
But Henry Golding, come on.
Just stole the show when he wason screen.
And I don't remember him beingthat likable before he was
almost like a charming devil.
Whereas he ends up marrying, Ican't even remember her name,
(29:14):
Mrs.
Susan (29:16):
Hmm.
Elizabeth?
No, it wasn't
Whittney (29:18):
it's the, the widow.
Who's trying to marry their dad.
Susan (29:22):
No, but I love that scene at the end.
That scene was hilarious when hewas making out with her and then
Anne walks past and he was like,wait, I can explain.
Just I thought, again.
just the comedic touches were soperfect, but interesting.
I, now I'm very inspired to readthe source material so I can
have a fair comparison, but.
For me, a strength in the film,was just the beautiful settings
(29:43):
and the scenery.
I always love a good Austinmovie, which England just looks
amazing.
I don't know why I haven't beenthere yet.
I just want to live there.
But in the film, we see KellynchHall, which apparently is in
Somerset Shire.
I don't know, correct me if I'mwrong on that, but Bath to Lime,
And then we're back again.
I love the scene where Anne andWentworth are on the beach.
(30:03):
I can't remember exactly wherethey are, but this beautiful
beach scene, they appear to bemaking amends though.
That exchange leaves Annefeeling like more bereft and
heartbroken than ever because asshe says in the film now we're
worse than friends.
We're exes.
And she stares into the placidwater and then walks out in it
to swim.
And Devin texted me when shewatched this scene and she was
(30:26):
like, would Ann really beswimming in a dress right now?
Devon (30:30):
Yeah, I think she actually says We're worse We're
worse than exes.
Susan (30:36):
Oh, you're right.
So the other way around, sorry.
Devon (30:38):
that they mend
Susan (30:39):
You're right.
You're right.
You're
Devon (30:40):
worse than when they were just exes and they sort of had
that sort of tension betweenthem.
Now, she sort of has to ignorethat and because they're
friends, so it's even a worsesituation.
Susan (30:52):
I hate when I mess up the line that I'm trying to make a
point with.
Thank you.
So, Yeah, Deb texted me, she'slike, Yeah, would she really be
swimming with her dress on?
And I was like, well, she wouldif the producers told her to.
Devon (31:05):
Yeah, I thought that was funny.
I didn't really have a majorissue with it.
I was just being nitpicky.
It was certainly a beautifulshot.
I loved those location shots.
The cinematography was gorgeous.
It just, I guess from the bookand from the original adaptation
I saw, I just have this picturein my mind of Ann being very
(31:27):
practical, very studious.
And when Dakota Johnson and AsAnne Elliot just walks into the
ocean with her full dress on, itjust left me scratching my head
because I'm thinking to myself,why would she be fully clothed
and swimming in this water?
It looks freezing.
(31:48):
And while the shots of herswimming.
are very dramatic and lovely andDakota Johnson looks fabulous.
Can you imagine her walking homein this soaked dress that's
completely waterlogged?
It wouldn't be as romantic asher swimming in the dress right
now.
So the practicality or lackthereof just sort of made me
chuckle.
(32:08):
And I was thinking that the AnnElliot I imagine wouldn't dare
to walk home looking like adrowned rat, albeit a beautiful
one.
That was just It's just thoselittle choices the directors
made.
I appreciate the creativity.
I appreciate the sort ofdeparture from the expected.
(32:30):
But it.
just...
Whittney (32:31):
so I have an, I have a theory on why they did it.
Devon (32:34):
Let's hear it.
Let's hear it.
They wanted to show her in a wet
Whittney (32:37):
No.
No.
Because he says careful, thereare riptides.
Because he's a naval soon to beadmiral.
And he stands there and watchesher.
when she swims, cause he letsLouisa jump and doesn't try to
catch her, right?
But will not leave when Anne isswimming, because what if a
(32:57):
riptide got her?
He'd never be able to forgivehimself.
He can't, and we needed tovisually see a scenario where he
just can't, he can't leave.
He has to stay there and keep aneye on her.
Susan (33:10):
Oh, that's a really intelligent thought, Whitney.
You know, I was thinking.
Yeah, I was thinking too, likewhen the two of them were
talking about Oh, now we'regoing to be friends.
I could tell that, neither ofthem wanted that to be the
scenario.
I just wanted to scream throughthe TV and be like, what are you
doing?
Like you both still love eachother You don't want to be
friends.
And
Devon (33:27):
that's exactly what Anne says,
Susan (33:29):
yeah.
And then like they parted andshe's like bereft and walks into
the ocean and he's standing upon the cliff watching her.
You could tell that both ofthem.
He was longing for her and shewas like grieving for him.
and I think that was just areally dramatic, but also super
beautiful moment.
I, I really liked the aestheticsof That whether or not it's
(33:49):
realistic with the wet dress,but I wanted to say also that.
there were some awkward scenes,especially when Wentworth comes
back into the picture.
One thing that stood out to mewas the scene where Wentworth
and Anne finally see each otherafter eight years.
and was pretending, now, Whitneyyou can tell me, was it her
nieces And nephews, the, whowere the little children that
she was with?
(34:10):
Is that her nieces and nephews?
Whittney (34:11):
Yeah,
Susan (34:11):
Okay.
Those were her nephews.
So she was pretending to becaptain Wentworth.
She was wearing a bread basketon her head, like a helmet, a
jam mustache.
That whole scene was veryuncomfortable when he walked in
behind her when she was doingthat and then they were
commenting on each other.
And she says you look old.
And your hair remains intact.
(34:31):
And he said, your hair remainssuitably appropriate.
And it was very funny, But Ifeel like that whole scene was
just like ridiculous with thejam mustache.
But what were your thoughts onthat?
Whittney (34:44):
I mean they have to make it awkward.
They have to kind of illustratein a visual way this weird,
awkward tension between themsome way.
So I thought that was just, youknow, visually is the easiest
way in a movie.
Devon (34:58):
Again, I think the filmmakers were trying to make
Anne as relatable and fluffy asa modern rom com leading lady
would be, but I don't know ofanyone who would willingly
spread jam on their face for alaugh, because it's pretty
sticky.
Susan (35:12):
Yeah.
But she still looked reallypretty doing
Devon (35:15):
Oh, of course! She looks pretty, she will look pretty
doing anything.
But yeah, the jam, I think theywere definitely showing that she
had a warmth about her.
She didn't take herself tooseriously.
She was endearing to thechildren and the nephews adored
her.
All of those qualities camethrough.
That particular scene, yes, wasquite awkward and silly.
(35:38):
I'm not sure if, again I don'tknow if I would picture someone
waking up and spreading jam ontheir face to make their friends
or their nephews laugh, butmaybe Aunt Elliot did
Susan (35:49):
One of the podcast reviews that I was listening to
talked about how they thoughtthat scene in particular
reminded them of somethingElizabeth Bennett would do.
They thought that this portrayalof an Elliot was very similar to
what an Elizabeth Bennettportrayal should be, I guess.
And they were, the podcasters, Icannot remember their names, but
they were saying that they feltthey were gypped out of having
(36:10):
their an Elliot because it waslike they were watching
Elizabeth.
Bennett.
So I wondered what, if either ofyou had a comment about that,
did you find
Whittney (36:18):
I mean, I think for me, it was showing Anne's warmth
as a foil to Mary's colddistance with her own children.
So I thought it was more a foilplay than stepping into another
Austin heroine's shoes.
Susan (36:35):
and it just showed a whimsical side of her also
Devon (36:40):
yes.
I agree.
I think that, as I said, Ihaven't read the, novel in so
long, I can't remember, but TheAnn Elliot, that Dakota Johnson
played, doesn't seem like theAnn Elliot that I remember from
the original persuasionmaterial, but she is someone
who's very likable and enjoyableto watch on screen.
(37:02):
So I guess that's just what theywere going for.
Mm-hmm.
Susan (37:05):
agreed.
Well, speaking of talking aboutthe character, what did you
think about casting So, we had,of course, Dakota Johnson, as
we've already talked about as anElliot Cosmo Jarvis plays
Frederick.
Wentworth Henry Golding, ofcourse, from crazy rich Asians
playing William Elliot andRichard E.
Grant as Sir Walter Elliot.
And Grant, incidentally, I hadto look him up.
(37:26):
He was a Golden Globe andAcademy Award nominee.
And I thought he was, great.
It was a very small role, but Iwas very impressed by him.
So what did the two of you thinkof the casting in general?
Whittney (37:38):
One person you didn't mention, who I thought was a
scene stealer that we'vereferenced a little bit already,
is Mia McKenna Bruce as Mary.
I thought she acted.
So beautifully in this role.
Her timing, as we've alreadytouched on was great.
(37:59):
She was just wonderful.
and she was hard to tear youreyes away from for different
reasons than Dakota.
And Henry Golding.
I've never really beeninterested in the character of
Mr.
William Elliott until thismovie.
And I think that is entirelyHenry Golding's doing.
Because...
(38:20):
I mean, he is very easy on theeyes, and he is extremely
charming, and that came throughvery strongly for me in this.
I think Cosmo as Wentworth wasan interesting choice, but I
understand it because he had towork for his wealth, right?
He had to...
(38:40):
Enlist in the Navy, and work hisway up, and so he's not gonna be
as polished in speech as some ofthe other folks he's gonna have
to have learned it, and so Ithought Cosmo did a nice job of
showing that but I think if youdon't know the story, he may
have come off a little awkwardthroughout, and you wouldn't
(39:03):
have understood why I say thisbecause When Nate was watching
this with me recently, so Icould brush up on Persuasion
this version.
He was like, this guy?
Why this guy?
And I'm like, it, there's somany layers of nuance at play
here that you're notunderstanding.
Susan (39:22):
Right.
Yeah.
Commenting on that, I know Devintexted me and said, Wentworth
talks like a lug, but I agreewith you.
I thought about the same thingsthat you're just saying is that
he definitely did seem like acharacter who had.
Evolved over time, someone whomaybe came from humble
beginnings that then becamesomeone more notable with rank.
(39:43):
I feel like if he had startedout more sophisticated or, you
know, not talking like a lug,maybe we wouldn't believe his
character evolution as much.
And I did like him.
I felt like he had a verypleasant quality though.
Like he seemed very humble andit was an interesting choice,
but I did enjoy him.
And I did like Henry Golding, ofcourse, but I didn't love him as
(40:04):
much as I loved him in crazyrich Asians.
I was saying to Devin, I don'tknow.
I feel like it was just the wayhe was dressed.
His collar was like up too highand I just felt like he seemed
like just so stiff and, I stillthink he was a good choice.
I just, I wasn't as wooed by himas you might expect.
but I wanted to add a side noteabout and father, who I
(40:26):
mentioned earlier was played byRichard E.
Grant.
I thought he was great and itmakes me realize that he is just
one of many in this long line offantastic actors playing fathers
in Jane Austen films, includingDonald Sutherland in Pride and
Prejudice, Bill Nighy in the2020 remake of Emma.
Maybe Donald Sutherland'scharacter was a little bit
(40:47):
different, but I think this BillNighy character who is Emma's
father and this character.
were very similar to me.
They were just like very ironicand humorous and they were also
scene stealers.
So just interesting that hecontinued in that eccentric
quirky father character.
Devon (41:05):
Yes, definitely, Susan.
The Austin patriarchs definitelyunique and quirky in their own
right, and they do tend to stealthe scenes in these adaptations,
and so Richard E.
Grant wasn't a disappointment inthat.
regard, but I would say thatthis movie was held by the
women.
(41:25):
The lady, the female cast, Ithought was absolutely terrific
with the lead of Dakota Johnsonwith the whole film on her,
shoulders.
I think she was effortlesslyable to carry that.
Mia McKenna.
Bruce as Mary was a scenestealer.
She was just such a drip.
She was so annoying.
I think she pulled off hercharacter just the way that the
(41:47):
filmmakers hoped her to do.
And I also, I loved Nia Toll asLouisa Musgrave.
I thought that While DakotaJohnson had this glow about her
when Louisa came on screen, Iwas thinking to myself, Wow,
she's beautiful too, and sheseems so lovely And likable that
I really wouldn't be upset ifshe ended up getting Wentworth
(42:09):
because She was just lovely, andI really liked her, and I was
sad when...
Her character was injured and wenever saw her again.
So I missed her when sheabruptly exited the storyline
and was only referred to lateron in passing.
And I also thought anotherstandout was Anne's confidant,
(42:32):
Lady Russell, played by NikkiAmooka Bird.
I thought her scenes wereterrific.
You could feel a genuinefriendship between Anne and Lady
Russell.
And I felt like Lady Russell wastruly the only equivalent person
of character to Anne Elliot, theequivalent in intelligence and
(42:52):
wit and wisdom.
And it was so good for AnneElliot to look up to, I guess,
that mother figure.
And so I thought that NikkiAmooka Byrd was terrific in that
role and that.
Ultimately, the men sort of fallaway from me in my eyes.
Henry Golding and Cosmo Jarvisthey were there, but really the
people who were interesting tome were the female cast.
(43:15):
they were the bright stars ofthis production.
Susan (43:18):
I also want to add that the diversity in this film.
I thought was something to beapplauded.
Now you can correct me, but Idon't believe there was
diversity in the otheradaptations that I've seen.
So I was really pleased to seethat.
in this version.
And I love like with Bridgertonactually how they're just
seamlessly weaving in diversitywithout it being any point of
(43:40):
conversation, which is how itshould be.
Shouldn't be like, Oh, why whyis there character of such and
such a race?
It does not matter.
A person's a person.
And I really loved that they didthat so seamlessly in this film.
And it was just so wonderful toAll sorts of different cultures
and races just mixing togetherin this film so perfectly.
And I really enjoyed that.
as Devin said, I felt the womenwere incredibly strong and they
(44:04):
were absolutely lovelyactresses.
And I thought the casting wasexcellent.
Whittney (44:09):
Yeah, I agree, Devon, something you said about Lady
Russell in prior adaptations, Iwas not sure why Anne would have
taken Lady Russell's advice soto heart why would she make the
biggest decision of her lifebased on the advice of Lady
Russell?
Because in previous adaptations,we know she's a friend of Anne's
(44:33):
late mother, Whereas in thisone, I believed that Lady
Russell was wise and warm andcaring, and I could understand
why she would have let her Makethat choice for her, right?
That she would have taken heradvice so to heart that she
would have made this Lifealtering decision as a result.
Devon (44:54):
Yes I agree, I think that was their relationship.
Even though they had very fewscenes together, she was, she
played a very small role, thetime that they did have on
screen, it seemed like anauthentic.
Authentic relationship.
Whittney (45:10):
they had mother daughter chemistry.
Devon (45:12):
Definitely.
Susan (45:14):
Well, ladies, I'm curious.
What are your thoughts on thechemistry between Ann and
Wentworth or even Ann andWilliam Elliott for that matter?
Was there any chemistry?
What were your thoughts on thoseparticular interactions or
relationships?
Whittney (45:29):
Dev, I know you have very strong thoughts on this, so
why don't you share yours first?
Devon (45:36):
Well, when you have a character like Dakota Johnson,
and she's just has this etherealbeauty about her, and she's wit
and charm and whimsy, andthey've just set her up to just
be just this delightful personthat we all wish we could be.
Then they bring in Cosmo Jarvis,who played the role like a
moping football player.
(45:58):
He didn't come across to me asdashing, or rich, or a
successful, reputable captain.
Although, to be honest, I'venever really met a ship captain,
so I don't know if he would belike one or not.
But one review I read likenedhis charms to Sylvester
Stallone, and I would agree withthis.
(46:19):
Actually, I was thinking ofsomething very similar when I
was watching the movie.
There was a thick neckedearnestness to his performance.
He just, he looked like a saddog walking around, and...
Although I wouldn't believe thatthere was a sharp intelligence
or depth behind those sad eyes,I can understand that he might
(46:39):
be appealing to some.
As far as Henry Golding, histime was So brief and his
initial appearance was sort ofdone So confusingly that wasn't
really given a chance to makemuch of an impression.
So none of the male charactersreally were.
They just were side charactersto the females who are much more
(47:01):
interesting.
So I would say maybe Anneactually had the most chemistry
with her brother in law.
He seemed rather pleasant andhandsome and rich, so maybe he
was a little more carved out.
Susan (47:13):
Didn't He propose to her first?
Whittney (47:15):
did.
Susan (47:16):
So there you go.
Devon (47:18):
You feel bad for him being saddled with a sister and
you're just wondering he seemslike a really nice guy and a
nice dad and his children areadorable and maybe he'd be the
most interesting lead if he wasgiven that chance.
Mm
Susan (47:32):
You know, I was thinking about Cosmo Jarvis.
I mean, I kind of agree withthings that you're saying.
Like he did seem like maybe hecame from the cast of varsity
blues or something, but I thinkwhat I liked him was Just, I
feel like I was seeing him likethrough her eyes.
She said all these wonderfulthings about him.
He listens with his whole body.
She gave all these praises anddescriptions about him.
(47:54):
And so I feel like I was reallyviewing him through like how she
felt about him, maybe more thanhow I personally felt about him.
Devon (48:01):
Mm
Whittney (48:01):
I often wonder if that's the point, because it's
interesting, whenever Nate and Iwere watching this, again, like
I said, just to brush up beforewe recorded this episode, he was
perplexed by the, choice too,but...
Devin, you said you've never meta ship's captain.
I work with and know severalNavy veterans.
(48:22):
And they're not super outgoing.
Because, I don't know if youknow anything about being on a
ship or being in a submarine.
Submarines are even worse.
The most conflict averse peopleI've ever met have spent time on
a submarine.
Because, you can't argue withanybody on a submarine, Because
you're underwater with them forfour months at a time at least.
Devon (48:41):
You can't get away.
Whittney (48:42):
get away.
So I wonder if part of whatyou're seeing on screen that
isn't translating might be someof that angle to his character
that Cosmo is putting into it?
You have to just keep it in.
And like he was saying, he wouldthink, what would Anne do
whenever he needed courage,right?
Because he doesn't see himselfas this dashing captain.
(49:05):
That's
Devon (49:05):
Mm hmm.
Whittney (49:06):
perception of him and his successes.
He thinks that Anne is still thestar, and he is just captivated
by her, right?
Devon (49:14):
Yes, I'd be curious to see this actor in another role
just to see if he has any othertype of dimension to him or if
this really was a consciouschoice of the way he was acting
it.
You may be giving him morecredit than is due to him, or
maybe you're right.
Maybe he is getting into thepsychology of a shipmate, of a
ship captain.
I, I truly don't know.
(49:35):
I've never seen this characterbefore.
Don't know if I visually see,him and Dakota Johnson as a hot
pairing, but he was pleasantenough.
Susan (49:45):
I think it worked.
I think it worked.
I did.
I it was believable to, me, atleast.
I was rooting for them and washappy that they ended up
together.
Whittney (49:55):
yeah, fun fact, he is Half Armenian, so he also, while
maybe not it wasn'toverwhelmingly obvious, is
bringing some diversity to thisrole as Well,
Devon (50:11):
Yes.
Yeah.
Susan (50:13):
in one of the reviews I was listening to it might've
been, I was listening to so manydifferent reviews on my drive
back to Philly yesterday.
Surprisingly, if you just Googlelike persuasion reviews, all of
these come up and there wasactually one podcast I
discovered, I think it was theBridgerton brothers and they
were joking about, first of all,they thought that.
The name Frederick Wentworth wasnot very romantic.
(50:36):
They were like, he's noFitzwilliam Darcy.
They're like Fred Wentworth.
They were just joking that thisdidn't seem like a very like
dashing leading man name.
But I think again, that's thepoint, because he came from
these humble beginnings.
Maybe he's not going to havethis very regal name, but then
they were also joking about theactor and they're like, Cosmo,
isn't that Cosmo Kramer firstname from.
(50:58):
From Seinfeld, they were givinghim a hard time, but I really do
feel like he was definitely a,the role.
And I kind of appreciated thatbecause it wasn't just like the
traditional leading man that youwould expect.
And I think that fits with whatthe character is supposed to be.
Whittney (51:13):
Yeah.
also in my current region in NewHampshire, Wentworth is actually
a very wealthy name becausethere is a resort by the ocean
And a very fancy and expensivehotel and spa called Wentworth
by the Sea.
Susan (51:29):
Ooh, well
Whittney (51:31):
but I mean, again, I live in a very big Navy area, so
he would fit right in here.
Susan (51:38):
Well, even worth any worth in Wentworth interesting.
Whittney (51:44):
Yeah.
Let's talk about our overallreviews of the film.
And out of five stars, fivebeing the highest I'm gonna
quote Mr.
Frederick Wentworth, or Captainslash future Admiral Wentworth.
I am half agony, half hope,which is in his letter that he
writes to Anne.
(52:05):
Susan, Devin, will you be sidingwith hope or agony in your
review?
Susan (52:10):
So I'm going to side for the positive when thinking about
the rating for this film I'vebeen thinking about its purpose.
And just as I would teach mystudents in class, the purpose
of a text is either to persuade.
So no pun intended with thechoice of words here to inform
or entertain.
And I think the purpose of thisparticular film.
Maybe different than some otheradaptations of this was to
(52:30):
entertain.
And I feel that for me it didthat it.
felt light, refreshing, and fun.
And when I watch things, I trynot to overanalyze and just kind
of enjoy it for what it.
is.
So even though in the back of mymind I was like, oh, that's an
interesting choice, or that'sdifferent.
I really didn't let that playinto how I felt about the film
overall.
I just enjoyed it.
And for me personally, I reallyliked it.
(52:50):
I think I would give it maybeit's not quite a four, maybe
like a three and a half, closeto a four, a I really did like
it.
I would recommend it I thinkit's just like a nice breezy
afternoon watch with some teaand some pound cake and I would
definitely rewatch it.
Whittney (53:08):
Yeah I know Devin is potentially our hardest critic,
but I'm pretty aligned with you,Susie, on the stars.
I was thinking in my head, threeand a half, three seven five,
and I just had to say that nowthat you literally said three
seven five out loud.
Again, for me, it.
was entertaining.
There are obviously things thatcould have been a little bit
(53:29):
better, but It was an enjoyablefun romp through my favorite
Austen book.
Alright, Debbie.
Devon (53:38):
I think overall I'd give this a 3 out of 5.
Nothing really special, but ithad some nice cinematography.
I appreciated the attempts atcreativity and freshness.
And I too was trying to notjudge it as an Austin
adaptation, but just as a movie.
and.
as a movie, I would say, itneeded more for me in terms of
(53:58):
character and story development.
Some things happened so quickly.
Some things were a, littleconfusing.
I wish that there was more.
We could understand how and and.
Mr.
Wentworth met, have a little bitmore understanding about the
family dynamics, about thehistory.
There was just, there werepieces of the story that I
wanted more of and so maybe forme that will just, that's just a
(54:20):
call to go novel.
But as a viewer and a lover ofmovies being able to get that
information from a movie isimportant too.
Not just to say, okay I'll goback and read the book, but to
be able to watch the movie asits own.
and its own thing.
I think it's important to havesome more of those details just
to give the audience somethingmore to chew on.
(54:42):
So overall, I'll say three outof five.
Dakota Johnson was beautiful.
Really enjoyed those femaleactresses.
fun for what it was.
Susan (54:50):
Yeah, I agree.
That was great.
Well, it was so much fundiscussing this with you, Devin,
as always.
We love our literature andmovie, you know, anything text
discussion.
So thank you so much for beingon today.
Devon (55:02):
Well, thank you for having me.
Whitney, you're the kind of friend who I can share an
appreciation of Jane Austenmovie adaptations with, which is
why we're reviewing the latestremake of Persuasion today.
Whittney (00:40):
Yes, Susan, and I can still remember watching Jane
Austen adaptations in your oldapartment.
I think the last one we watched2008 Sense and Sensibility.
And Susan, I love that you'rethe kind of friend who shares my
love of an actor who reallynails a Jane Austen leading man.
I mean, come on, Colin Firth?
(01:01):
Hugh Grant, James McAvoy, yourfavorite, Johnny Lee Miller,
Matthew McFadden, and then thisadaptation gives us Cosmo Jarvis
and Henry Golding! Yay!
Susan (01:12):
Ooh, I love hearing about James McAvoy.
My heart just fluttered.
Uh, yes.
Love being reminded of all thoseleading men, Whitney.
And on today's episode, we'll bereviewing Netflix's Persuasion,
starring Dakota Johnson withspecial guest, not in the movie,
but in today's show, my sister,Devin Hamilton.
And listeners will rememberDevin has joined us in season
(01:33):
one for the inspiring yourchildren to read episodes in
season two for the wish you werehere book club episode.
And most recently this seasonfor the mad honey book club
episode.
So welcome Devin.
Devon (01:44):
Hi, thanks for having me back.
Whittney (01:45):
Yay, Devie!
Susan (01:47):
Yay Dev, glad to have you.
Whittney (01:49):
For those who are not familiar, Persuasion was the
last novel completed by JaneAusten, and it was published in
1817.
Persuasion tells the story of asecond chance at love between
Old Flames, Anne Elliot, andCaptain Frederick Wentworth.
Eight years earlier, Anne was inlove with Wentworth, but was
persuaded by her family to givehim up because he was without
(02:12):
rank and fortune.
Susan (02:13):
When the story begins, we learn that the Elliott's once a
respected titled landowningfamily are now in a bad spot as
the family patriarch and hisfather, Sir Walter Elliott has
lavishly overspent andsquandered all the family money.
The family realizes that inorder to live more affordably,
they must relocate to a houseand bath and rent the family
(02:34):
estate Kellynch hall.
Whittney (02:36):
There are a lot more nuanced plot points that we're
glazing over here, butbasically, when Wentworth
returns from his time at seawith prize money and social
acceptability because of hisnaval rank, he is now considered
an eligible suitor.
But there are roadblocks alongthe way, as there is another
lady vying for his attention,and a lack of transparency and
(02:56):
misunderstandings between he andAnne that temporarily keep them
apart.
Susan (03:01):
And must overcome the advances of her cousin, William
Elliot, whose true character andmotives we don't see in the film
and rediscover the strength ofher love for Wentworth, which
has been there all along.
Whittney (03:12):
The film is directed by Carrie Cracknell, with a
screenplay by Ron Bass and AliceVictoria Winslow.
It's loosely based on Austin'soriginal story.
So, what did everybody think ofthis modern adaptation
Devon (03:26):
I found this adaptation generally enjoyable and pretty
featherlight.
in that it evaporated from mymind pretty quickly upon its
conclusion.
But it was diverting andentertaining during its runtime
and overall I liked it.
Susan (03:41):
Well, in preparation for our review, I've been reading
and listening to various reviewsand.
All the reviews have been amixed bag.
Some have found this adaptationjoyful.
I even heard the term gentle,whereas other Austin purists are
like outraged by howanachronistic it is.
But in my opinion, I thoughtthat was why I enjoyed it.
(04:03):
and I have to be transparentthat I haven't read the source
material, but I am familiar withprevious adaptations, though
it's been a really long time.
so I came at this portrayal withan unbiased perspective, And I
thought it was really fresh andfunny, clever, and very
aesthetically pleasing.
So, I'd love to hear your takealso Whitney, but you know, I
didn't care if it was a hundredpercent accurate to the original
(04:25):
text or character.
I thought this was a freshretelling for a more modern
audience.
And you know, even though somethings were kind of unbelievable
to me, like it's hard to believethat Dakota Johnson's and Elliot
could still be single.
Cause she's like so stunninglybeautiful, but considering she's
still mourning Wentworth.
Maybe we can believe it.
And She does say in the film,I'm waiting to fall in love.
(04:47):
so I can appreciate that
Whittney (04:49):
So, I'm going to address what you just said about
Dakota Johnson because she is agorgeously stunning woman, and I
totally agree with you.
But I will point out that thereare references both in the book
and in the movie to the factthat she was a pretty highly
coveted match.
Charles Musgrove had originallyproposed to her, and the family
(05:11):
is sad that She did Not accept,right?
And so she had at least thosetwo proposals that we know
about.
But again, she's waiting to fallin love.
I will say that Persuasion is myfavorite Austen book.
So any adaptation that, is aPersuasion adaptation is gonna
have pretty high stakes with me.
(05:32):
But this one, I really enjoyed.
I loved the fresh take onlanguage.
I think that this story has...
Not been one that's felt superaccessible in previous
adaptations, And therefore it'sa lesser known Austen novel,
when I think it should be aswell known as my second favorite
Austen novel, Pride andPrejudice.
(05:55):
Most people understand the plotof Pride and Prejudice and can
even quote some lines from that,even if they're not Austen
fanatics like we are.
and I think this really opens.
this book up to being moreaccessible to non Austin focused
audiences.
And another thing that I reallyliked about this adaptation is
(06:18):
that it showed, I'm gonna saywhere Anne fits and where she
doesn't, it showed her naturalrelationships with the
characters, I think, better thansome of the previous ones.
And as an example she doesn'treally fit in with her family,
and I don't think it wasglaringly obvious in previous
adaptations that that's thecase, but here, they couldn't be
(06:38):
any more different.
She has depth and substance, andher family does not.
You see why Lady Russell tellingher not to accept Wentworth's
proposal would have made such animpression on her, right?
Because Lady Russell is a stableand wise influence, especially
when compared with her family.
See why she's so close toLouisa, And why she would
(06:59):
consider giving Wentworth up toLouisa, right?
because she's very bonded to theMusgroves, even though they're
her, essentially her in laws,right?
Her sister's in laws.
I thought that this reallyhighlighted those points.
But, I will have to say, I thinkthat one of the most romantic
scenes of any book ever isWentworth's letter to Anne.
(07:23):
And I feel like, potentiallyother adaptations may have
handled that one a little bitbetter than this.
This, because there was so muchexcitement, it didn't really
stand out as much as maybe ithad in previous adaptations.
Susan (07:37):
I want to just say that I don't even remember the previous
adaptations.
I have a brief, you know, verydistant memory.
I can remember when it was out,the masterpiece theater ran a
series of all the Austin novels.
I want to say this might've beenback like in 2008, I remember
public television had a seriesand I watched it, but now I
can't remember the letterwriting scene.
And so now I'm kind of curious.
Either one of you have anythingto say about why this version
(08:00):
was more lackluster thansomething that was previously
shown in a, in a, film or in thebook.
Devon (08:06):
I first became familiar with Persuasion when I was
watching the BBC classics withyou and Whitney.
It, This one came out, thePersuasion through the BBC came
out in 2007 and it starred theincredible Sally Hawkins.
And this was the first time I'dever seen Hawkins on screen and
I remember being captivated byher and the whole production.
(08:29):
She has this I don't know, thisregalness about her, this sort
of just quiet reserve that'svery powerful and she was very
different from any other heroinethat I had seen before.
She didn't have really any flashto her, she wasn't glamorous,
but there was something thatjust, you were drawn to And her
(08:51):
character, was very good andkind and hard working and had an
intelligence and a quality toher.
So in that way, she sort of mademe think of a Jane Eyre type
where she was good and she justbelieved in, in helping others
and trying to do the rightthing.
And so she had that sort ofweight to her character, and I
(09:15):
enjoyed it so much that thatmovie inspired me to seek out
the original novel and read it.
And as Whitney said thatPersuasion was her favorite.
I remember when I read it at thetime, I believed that Persuasion
was my favorite Austen too.
That I really, I really enjoyedthe novel and I thought that it
should be.
More well known and more popularthan it was, but it's been such
(09:38):
a long time between my viewingand my reading that I came to
this movie adaptation with anopen mind.
I believe that people returnagain and again to Austin
adaptations, not for it's lineby line faithfulness to the
novel, but just that essence,that kernel of the story that
Austin has, that everyone lovesa good story.
(10:00):
Everyone comes for a good story.
So I was just.
Approaching the movie in thatway really had no moorings to
the original anymore to reallybase it off of.
So I, was just going to take itfor what it was.
Overall, I think that it was anenjoyable night spent in an
Austin inspired world.
And although some of creativechoices were a little silly,
(10:23):
overall, was really pleasant.
Susan (10:25):
I love what you said about the Austin essence.
I think that's my favorite lineso far tonight.
the Austin essence and I, I alsowant to live in an Austin
inspired world.
So there's that.
But I wanted to say that I knowthere was a lot of naysayers,
like if you Google this movie,the rotten tomatoes comes up at
(10:45):
like, I could be wrong, but it'slike 22%.
it's really bad.
And I was like, so perplexed.
Cause I.
Also enjoyed it.
So you know, I was just thinkingfor any naysayers out there, I
think it is important toremember that this novel is
loosely based or excuse me, thismovie is loosely based on the
novel.
It even says that in the openingcredits, like it's based on,
it's not, you know, this ahundred percent true portrayal.
(11:07):
it's not supposed to be.
exactly a hundred percentAdaptation.
So when analyzing any film orstory, I think it's important to
consider who the intendedaudience is.
And I believe the intendedaudience is for a younger, new
to Austin crowd.
So probably like the samemillennials watching Bridgerton.
It's not supposed to be thistraditional masterpiece.
(11:27):
Classic theater.
So I think that this, you know,it is like a modern fresh take.
and I think that's okay becausethat's what it's supposed to be.
And I think this film tries todo with the source material,
what Clueless did with Emma, butdifferently because instead of
setting the film in modern timeswith the same basic plot, this
story is still set in the 1800s,but with the modern dialogue and
(11:50):
references.
So it's a little differentthere, but.
That is apparently what a lot ofviewers did not like because it
was so anachronistic and theyfelt it was inauthentic.
So how did the two of you feelabout the way that the movie
tried to modernize a film set inits original time?
I'm sure there's a term forthat.
I don't know what that term is,but was it effective for you?
Devon (12:11):
A few things didn't work for me in that Anne Elliot
sneaking away with her bottlesof wine behind her back and her
crying alone in her room andher, in her bathtub.
I just sort of, I, I was takingit for what it was, took
everything with a grain of salt,but thinking to myself that.
(12:33):
In a modern rom com, a woman isseen soaking in her luxury
bathtub in the evenings with herwine and her tears and her, uh,
her romance book.
but in Anne Elliot's time, itwould take quite a lot of effort
to to draw up a hot bath.
So seeing her taking a hot bathin her dark room alone at night,
(12:55):
I don't know, just sort of mademe...
Chuckle that it just didn't seemvery practical for her to be
doing that to be lounging in thebathtub crying like she was, I
Enjoyed that it was trying toappeal to a different audience.
I enjoyed it was trying to takea fresh take I did think some of
the choices were very creative.
So it just sort of made me laughand I moved on from it
Whittney (13:18):
I will just add on to that I wasn't as bothered by
those things.
the drinking of the wine, andthe yelling out the window to
Wentworth, and...
I did like the part where shewas, filling us in on the
conversation she was about tohave with Mary.
I thought that was reallyentertaining.
But, can we talk about therabbit?
The rabbit was weird.
(13:39):
That rabbit would never havesurvived in that household.
Definitely would've escaped,would've been eaten by
something.
Would've been cooked by someonefor dinner.
There's no way she could've hada pet rabbit, I just need to
throw that out
Devon (13:54):
It just, yeah, the rabbit, you just wonder, really,
is she carrying this around?
do people do this?
that's what I was just thinkingokay.
They just sort of replaced wherea character would normally have
a cat, they replaced it with arabbit.
I think it just was supposed tobe whimsical with something for
her to make her laugh.
Susan (14:12):
As pets.
I know one of my, my oldermates, best friends had a rabbit
named bun and bun lived in theapartment with all these girls
and bun would just be hoppingaround.
And I remember bun was atparties.
Everyone would be passing bunaround.
I'm just saying, it's maybe notas common as a cat, But, I don't
think it's like out of thequestion that someone has a pet
(14:33):
rabbit.
Whittney (14:33):
Not today, it's
Susan (14:34):
it was too weird.
Whittney (14:36):
today.
Devon (14:36):
random.
Susan (14:37):
I mean, yeah, but this movie is not.
Yeah, there are some, uh,different references and things
like we already talked about,like the timeline, the times
don't line up, I guess, but Idon't know.
That didn't bother me too much,
Whittney (14:50):
So, okay let's say, like Devin pointed out, the
bathtub, right?
it would take how many servants,and how much time, or whatever.
But they're living on theMusgrove estate, right?
Charles and Mary are livingthere with their kids, so, maybe
there are enough servants to goaround.
It is...
Possible that somebody couldhave drawn her that bath, right?
(15:11):
Or,
Susan (15:11):
although it doesn't feel like in the bathtub in her
clothes.
I feel like she was just like inthe bathtub, like just sitting
Devon (15:17):
Oh, I don't know if she was in your clothes.
Susan (15:18):
sure.
I think she was just like in thebathtub, like, just sitting in
Devon (15:21):
just in there, like, crying, and I'm thinking to
myself, like, what time is it?
Is it at night?
And how many servants justwalked upstairs carrying loads
of, or jars of water to fillthis bathtub for you?
Whittney (15:35):
right.
Susan (15:35):
I actually would love to talk about the bathtub sequence
and also just kind of the wholeopening sequence in general.
So thought a perfect example ofhow the film modernized the
character of Anne Elliot And herstruggle to get over her breakup
with Wentworth is in the firstsequence.
So the whole film starts withthis, this picturesque sweeping
landscape.
One of the most beautiful scenesin the film in the scene, Anne
(15:57):
and Wentworth are like fawningover each other in the meadow
with the breeze blowing throughthe grasses and Ann's voiceover,
I think gives one of the bestlines to start the film.
I almost got married once shesays, and then it cuts to her
saying, and now I'm single andthriving.
Then it cuts to her likeabsolutely miserable.
and she says, I spend timedrinking fine wines.
(16:17):
We see her slugging wine out ofa bottle.
She says, enjoying warm baths.
We see her crying in the bathtuband she says, lying face down in
my bed.
And we see her likecatatonically face planted on
her bed crying.
Next she says, and I love thatsequence though, because I think
we can.
I'll relate to that dev.
I was actually thinking aboutthe movie that we love.
(16:37):
Something's got to give whenDiane Keaton breaks up with the
Jack Nicholson character andshe's just like, they show her
going through the stages ofgrief and she's like sobbing in
the shower.
And I always love movies thatreally show you what it's
actually like.
So I could kind of appreciate,you know, going through a
breakup in Austin times, but Idon't think it's out of the
question that someone would begrieving.
(16:58):
in those ways, whether or notthe bath is realistic.
I don't know.
But then I loved how sheintroduced her family saying
next who needs romance when onehas family.
And then we get introduced tothis snobbish, pretentious
family, her father's in thislong floral jacket, admiring
self in the mirror while he'spampered by butlers.
All the living room pictures arepictures of himself.
(17:21):
And Ann says, my father nevermet a reflective surface he
didn't like.
And by the way, she turns to thecamera to say this.
So I thought that whole firstsequence was so humorous and
refreshing.
I love that she was grieving ina modern, relatable way.
And just the way the film usedthe irony and the tongue in
cheek humor.
I thought it was very effective
Whittney (17:41):
Yeah, on that note, Susan one thing that was really
unique about this film, or atleast for an Austin adaptation,
but is very common in realityshows, which are some of my
favorite things to watch, is thebreaking of the so called fourth
wall, right?
The wall behind the camera.
When Anne Elliot is speaking orsmiling or winking directly to
(18:03):
the viewer, it's the breaking ofthis.
fourth wall.
It's as if we're having aprivate conversation or sharing
inside jokes with her.
And so the opening sequence youjust described, Susan, is an
example of this.
And so I'm wondering what theboth of you thought of the
effectiveness of this becauseI've thoughts.
Devon (18:22):
Yes I was in the reviews and the preparation for this
discussion.
I also saw a lot of peoplecommenting about this and they
thought it was trying to rip offFleabag, which is a very funny,
but crass romantic, I don't knowif I could call it a romantic
sure what I would call it.
Just, a portrayal of a womangoing through her life and
(18:45):
trying to figure things out.
But she's constantly winking atthe camera.
She's constantly talking to thecamera and that style has become
extremely popular in the pastseveral years.
And I think people really enjoyit because they feel like the
audience feels like they'rebeing let in on a secret and
they're on the inside circle andeveryone always wants to be on
(19:05):
the inner circle.
So in, for this film, I reallyenjoyed the way.
that Dakota Johnson speaksdirectly into the camera and
gives you the little side eyeand gives you the knowing looks
because you suddenly youautomatically become connected
to her.
You're rooting for her.
You feel like she's your friend.
And so I think that's veryeffective.
(19:26):
And Johnson, as we said, is sopretty.
She's so easy to watch on screenthat it lets you really forgive
any weaknesses of the filmbecause Her face is so perfect
to look at and so you're justreally enjoying that for a while
But the breaking of the fourthwall I always enjoy it when it's
employed well and I thought thatthere were many effective
(19:47):
moments in the movie and I eventhink as the film went on Some
of that fell away a little bit,and I almost wished it continued
to stay as prominent As it didin the beginning of the movie,
but I understand they weretrying to get you to Be swept
up.
Once Wentworth comes back.
(20:07):
onto the scene.
Those devices were pulled back abit, but I sort of wish there
was more of those to continue todevelop.
Towards the end, some of theother characters that pop up on
screen.
Susan (20:18):
And I also really enjoyed this I thought it was very
humorous.
Actually, I know we're going totalk further a little bit later
about the casting, but I thoughtDakota Johnson was great at
doing this technique.
Previously when I had seen her.
which is not very much,honestly, I think I watched one
or two of the 50 shades moviesAnd kind of.
gave up on those.
(20:39):
And I saw another movie that shedid.
I cannot even remember the nameof it, if that tells you
anything about it, but I wasn'tever super impressed with her.
acting chops or anything likethat.
And in here, this movie, I waslike, wow, I really am enjoying
her.
I think she actually is quitefunny.
And is delivering this soeffectively.
So I enjoyed the breaking of thefourth wall.
And I also really enjoyed thescene where Anne was.
(21:01):
Taking us the viewer through allthe mementos she'd saved from
her courtship with Wentworth,kind of like, how we would do
that.
And nowadays, like maybe yousave items from an ex boyfriend
in the shoe box under your bed.
She showed us the playlist thathe had made her.
She called it a playlist, butreally it was just like a bundle
of sheet music.
I thought that was quite funny.
(21:23):
and then she showed us a lock ofhis hair, a lock of his horse's
hair, which was It's kind of
Whittney (21:28):
What was with the horse's hair?
I still don't understand.
She didn't know him very well.
Susan (21:34):
yeah, she's like, I don't really know your horse, but
maybe like back then you like,you actually would kind of know
someone's horse.
They're like, cause they get toand from on that horse.
But I thought that was, that wasreally humorous.
And I just liked that wholesequence a lot.
I felt like watching that and afew of the other lines, like
there was one point she wasjoking with her sister, Mary,
she was like crying into apillow and Mary walked in and
(21:56):
she was like, Oh, lady Macbeth,like act four or scene two or
whatever.
And then she was.
like, my sister will buy this.
And her sister was like, Oh,okay.
There was just so many effectivescenes.
And I was smiling throughout it.
So I thought it was just reallycool to see an 1800s woman going
through experiences like the waywe would.
So I felt really like I couldconnect to her and I didn't try
(22:19):
to find fault with.
Any of the references being outof date or the style, like I
personally just really enjoyedit for what it was.
And side note, Whitney, do youremember that you created a
breakup playlist for me?
It was not sheet music.
It was a CD
Whittney (22:35):
It was a missed opportunity to send you just a
stack of sheet music, lookingback.
But yes, I do remember
Susan (22:41):
future.
I mean, I would prefer not to gothrough another breakup, but
it's bound to happen, but Iwould prefer a stack of sheet
music.
That'd be great.
Yes.
Whittney (22:51):
Yes, I do remember because I think that you said
you kept it because I rememberthe breakup I sent it to you for
and I think you referenced it orshared it with somebody else
after, even after that was over.
Susan (23:06):
Well, I remember that it was, it was a long playlist and
you, said that you were takinglike hours on it trying to
figure out the songs and Natewas finally like, make up your
mind.
Just pick these songs, narrow itdown.
Whittney (23:18):
it's a very delicate situation when you are trying to
soothe your friend's soul aftersomething devastating like a
breakup and he did not seem tounderstand that nuance.
Susan (23:30):
Well, thank you Whitney.
So, what did you think?
You said that you had thoughtsabout the breaking of the fourth
wall.
Whittney (23:35):
So I thought it was particularly effective to help
with characterization.
and I will give you the exampleof Mary as where I thought it
was perfect.
Because there are elements ofMary's character that I think
are hard to Have come out in ascene unless the person is
being, is overacting or being alittle Two on the nose, if you
(23:59):
know what I'm saying.
so whenever she's telling usHere are the things that Mary's
gonna do when I walk in, right?
When she and her rabbit, walkin.
Which, don't get me started onthe rabbit.
again.
But
Susan (24:10):
Don't let you
Whittney (24:10):
Rabbit that survived a carriage ride?
No.
Anyway.
Susan (24:14):
go down the rabbit hole,
Whittney (24:15):
Uh,
Devon (24:16):
really walk in with the rabbit I've, even, I
Whittney (24:18):
She
Devon (24:19):
guess I the rabbit.
Whittney (24:20):
it to Charles And Charles and Mary's house, if you
again.
She literally walks into thehouse with It I'm like, how did
the rabbit come back?
So anyway, she travels with therabbit Devin.
She travels with the
Devon (24:32):
I know she, I know the came out of the carriage and
first time I laughed at it.
When he handed her the rabbitout of the carriage, but I
didn't know.
Yeah,
Susan (24:39):
centric, it's a centric, appreciate these details.
It's funny.
Devon (24:44):
Yeah, it's funny.
Whittney (24:45):
But, so when she's introducing us to Mary on
screen, And she says this iswhat Mary does every time you
come, it got to the point wherewe, we knew Mary so well after
those conversations, after shedemonstrated, how well she did
know Mary?
and Mary on cue was like, Oh,I'm on my deathbed and my in
laws hate me.
that's why they sent me flowers,et cetera.
(25:07):
Then, later, when Mary's beingridiculous, it doesn't need to
be explained anymore.
whenever Anne hurts her foot,and, she's limping out of the
forest, Charles carries Mary thewhole way home.
Do you remember that part?
Didn't need that to be, like,why is Charles carrying Mary Did
I miss something?
Did something happen?
You're like, no, that's justMary's character, right?
Devon (25:26):
She can't walk for long distances or be outside.
Susan (25:30):
No, you're right, Whitney.
That particular introduction ofher sister was hilarious, how
she knew to a T, like the threethings that her sister was going
to do or say.
I
Whittney (25:38):
That sets you up for later, so that you don't need as
much information about thecharacters later because she's
just giving it, that informationto you up front in the fourth
wall.
So I thought the fourth wall wasreally effective there, because
then it opened the actress thatplays Mary up to be, a comedic
genius, and we would get it.
Devon (25:59):
Yeah, she's really strong.
Susan (26:01):
No, she, she was she was a hidden gem in this movie.
She was
Devon (26:06):
she was a scene stealer.
Susan (26:07):
For sure.
Yeah.
So Whitney, you talked earlierabout how this is your favorite
Austin book, I guess, Devin, youtoo.
I'm not sure how recently eitherof you have read this, that you
remember between the film andthe text?
I know I've read in severalreviews that a lot of key
details were left out mostnoticeably.
more information about Anne'scousin, William Elliot actually
(26:27):
being a villain, which theydidn't really his character was
just definitely not, threedimensional in this story.
I feel like we didn't reallyknow what was going on with him.
So I don't know if you couldenlighten us a little bit more
on some details that were leftout from the book that were kind
of glaring.
Whittney (26:43):
So, I feel like one of the ways the book doesn't
translate to an entertainingmovie is that it's a lot of,
cerebral, longing.
the page is full of just peoplelonging for the past and
rethinking decisions.
And it's not super visual thatway or super full of activity.
(27:04):
One of the main differences Ican think here is...
During the famous letter scene,I'm pretty sure in the book they
were just entirely in theMusgroves drawing room.
it was just a big group of themin the drawing room.
And in one corner went withwriting letters.
In another corner, Anne iswriting, letters.
(27:27):
The Musgroves are all there.
Both, Charles parents andsisters and Mary and Charles and
the kids, cause that was a thingthey did.
It was normal, we're all in adrawing room together, we just
hang out and all do our ownthings in the same giant room
together.
Whereas, it wouldn't maybe comeoff as accessible in this movie.
(27:49):
So, they changed the setting,they made it make sense for
these conversations to beoverheard while he was writing,
and in the book, I feel likeshe's alone when she reads the
letter, but she's alone In aprivate home and here we have
her reading this, and thenimmediately running out into the
(28:10):
street because she's in the inn,right?
So it's it was a little bit of adifferent vibe.
Because in the book, it's muchmore just regular life.
She's just living her regularlife, doing the normal things.
She just is miserable inside.
And in a book, that comes offwell.
In a movie, it's not superexciting.
(28:31):
Just to have someone unhappy andlonging the whole book.
So I think for me that's thebiggest difference.
And you brought up WilliamElliot.
I actually thought he was farmore charming in this adaptation
than he has been when I readthe, book and in past
adaptations that I've watched.
I'm trying to think if I've readsomething prior to the 2007, or
(28:54):
I mean watched something priorto the 2007 adaptation.
But Henry Golding, come on.
Just stole the show when he wason screen.
And I don't remember him beingthat likable before he was
almost like a charming devil.
Whereas he ends up marrying, Ican't even remember her name,
(29:14):
Mrs.
Susan (29:16):
Hmm.
Elizabeth?
No, it wasn't
Whittney (29:18):
it's the, the widow.
Who's trying to marry their dad.
Susan (29:22):
No, but I love that scene at the end.
That scene was hilarious when hewas making out with her and then
Anne walks past and he was like,wait, I can explain.
Just I thought, again.
just the comedic touches were soperfect, but interesting.
I, now I'm very inspired to readthe source material so I can
have a fair comparison, but.
For me, a strength in the film,was just the beautiful settings
(29:43):
and the scenery.
I always love a good Austinmovie, which England just looks
amazing.
I don't know why I haven't beenthere yet.
I just want to live there.
But in the film, we see KellynchHall, which apparently is in
Somerset Shire.
I don't know, correct me if I'mwrong on that, but Bath to Lime,
And then we're back again.
I love the scene where Anne andWentworth are on the beach.
(30:03):
I can't remember exactly wherethey are, but this beautiful
beach scene, they appear to bemaking amends though.
That exchange leaves Annefeeling like more bereft and
heartbroken than ever because asshe says in the film now we're
worse than friends.
We're exes.
And she stares into the placidwater and then walks out in it
to swim.
And Devin texted me when shewatched this scene and she was
(30:26):
like, would Ann really beswimming in a dress right now?
Devon (30:30):
Yeah, I think she actually says We're worse We're
worse than exes.
Susan (30:36):
Oh, you're right.
So the other way around, sorry.
Devon (30:38):
that they mend
Susan (30:39):
You're right.
You're right.
You're
Devon (30:40):
worse than when they were just exes and they sort of had
that sort of tension betweenthem.
Now, she sort of has to ignorethat and because they're
friends, so it's even a worsesituation.
Susan (30:52):
I hate when I mess up the line that I'm trying to make a
point with.
Thank you.
So, Yeah, Deb texted me, she'slike, Yeah, would she really be
swimming with her dress on?
And I was like, well, she wouldif the producers told her to.
Devon (31:05):
Yeah, I thought that was funny.
I didn't really have a majorissue with it.
I was just being nitpicky.
It was certainly a beautifulshot.
I loved those location shots.
The cinematography was gorgeous.
It just, I guess from the bookand from the original adaptation
I saw, I just have this picturein my mind of Ann being very
(31:27):
practical, very studious.
And when Dakota Johnson and AsAnne Elliot just walks into the
ocean with her full dress on, itjust left me scratching my head
because I'm thinking to myself,why would she be fully clothed
and swimming in this water?
It looks freezing.
(31:48):
And while the shots of herswimming.
are very dramatic and lovely andDakota Johnson looks fabulous.
Can you imagine her walking homein this soaked dress that's
completely waterlogged?
It wouldn't be as romantic asher swimming in the dress right
now.
So the practicality or lackthereof just sort of made me
chuckle.
(32:08):
And I was thinking that the AnnElliot I imagine wouldn't dare
to walk home looking like adrowned rat, albeit a beautiful
one.
That was just It's just thoselittle choices the directors
made.
I appreciate the creativity.
I appreciate the sort ofdeparture from the expected.
(32:30):
But it.
just...
Whittney (32:31):
so I have an, I have a theory on why they did it.
Devon (32:34):
Let's hear it.
Let's hear it.
They wanted to show her in a wet
Whittney (32:37):
No.
No.
Because he says careful, thereare riptides.
Because he's a naval soon to beadmiral.
And he stands there and watchesher.
when she swims, cause he letsLouisa jump and doesn't try to
catch her, right?
But will not leave when Anne isswimming, because what if a
(32:57):
riptide got her?
He'd never be able to forgivehimself.
He can't, and we needed tovisually see a scenario where he
just can't, he can't leave.
He has to stay there and keep aneye on her.
Susan (33:10):
Oh, that's a really intelligent thought, Whitney.
You know, I was thinking.
Yeah, I was thinking too, likewhen the two of them were
talking about Oh, now we'regoing to be friends.
I could tell that, neither ofthem wanted that to be the
scenario.
I just wanted to scream throughthe TV and be like, what are you
doing?
Like you both still love eachother You don't want to be
friends.
And
Devon (33:27):
that's exactly what Anne says,
Susan (33:29):
yeah.
And then like they parted andshe's like bereft and walks into
the ocean and he's standing upon the cliff watching her.
You could tell that both ofthem.
He was longing for her and shewas like grieving for him.
and I think that was just areally dramatic, but also super
beautiful moment.
I, I really liked the aestheticsof That whether or not it's
(33:49):
realistic with the wet dress,but I wanted to say also that.
there were some awkward scenes,especially when Wentworth comes
back into the picture.
One thing that stood out to mewas the scene where Wentworth
and Anne finally see each otherafter eight years.
and was pretending, now, Whitneyyou can tell me, was it her
nieces And nephews, the, whowere the little children that
she was with?
(34:10):
Is that her nieces and nephews?
Whittney (34:11):
Yeah,
Susan (34:11):
Okay.
Those were her nephews.
So she was pretending to becaptain Wentworth.
She was wearing a bread basketon her head, like a helmet, a
jam mustache.
That whole scene was veryuncomfortable when he walked in
behind her when she was doingthat and then they were
commenting on each other.
And she says you look old.
And your hair remains intact.
(34:31):
And he said, your hair remainssuitably appropriate.
And it was very funny, But Ifeel like that whole scene was
just like ridiculous with thejam mustache.
But what were your thoughts onthat?
Whittney (34:44):
I mean they have to make it awkward.
They have to kind of illustratein a visual way this weird,
awkward tension between themsome way.
So I thought that was just, youknow, visually is the easiest
way in a movie.
Devon (34:58):
Again, I think the filmmakers were trying to make
Anne as relatable and fluffy asa modern rom com leading lady
would be, but I don't know ofanyone who would willingly
spread jam on their face for alaugh, because it's pretty
sticky.
Susan (35:12):
Yeah.
But she still looked reallypretty doing
Devon (35:15):
Oh, of course! She looks pretty, she will look pretty
doing anything.
But yeah, the jam, I think theywere definitely showing that she
had a warmth about her.
She didn't take herself tooseriously.
She was endearing to thechildren and the nephews adored
her.
All of those qualities camethrough.
That particular scene, yes, wasquite awkward and silly.
(35:38):
I'm not sure if, again I don'tknow if I would picture someone
waking up and spreading jam ontheir face to make their friends
or their nephews laugh, butmaybe Aunt Elliot did
Susan (35:49):
One of the podcast reviews that I was listening to
talked about how they thoughtthat scene in particular
reminded them of somethingElizabeth Bennett would do.
They thought that this portrayalof an Elliot was very similar to
what an Elizabeth Bennettportrayal should be, I guess.
And they were, the podcasters, Icannot remember their names, but
they were saying that they feltthey were gypped out of having
(36:10):
their an Elliot because it waslike they were watching
Elizabeth.
Bennett.
So I wondered what, if either ofyou had a comment about that,
did you find
Whittney (36:18):
I mean, I think for me, it was showing Anne's warmth
as a foil to Mary's colddistance with her own children.
So I thought it was more a foilplay than stepping into another
Austin heroine's shoes.
Susan (36:35):
and it just showed a whimsical side of her also
Devon (36:40):
yes.
I agree.
I think that, as I said, Ihaven't read the, novel in so
long, I can't remember, but TheAnn Elliot, that Dakota Johnson
played, doesn't seem like theAnn Elliot that I remember from
the original persuasionmaterial, but she is someone
who's very likable and enjoyableto watch on screen.
(37:02):
So I guess that's just what theywere going for.
Mm-hmm.
Susan (37:05):
agreed.
Well, speaking of talking aboutthe character, what did you
think about casting So, we had,of course, Dakota Johnson, as
we've already talked about as anElliot Cosmo Jarvis plays
Frederick.
Wentworth Henry Golding, ofcourse, from crazy rich Asians
playing William Elliot andRichard E.
Grant as Sir Walter Elliot.
And Grant, incidentally, I hadto look him up.
(37:26):
He was a Golden Globe andAcademy Award nominee.
And I thought he was, great.
It was a very small role, but Iwas very impressed by him.
So what did the two of you thinkof the casting in general?
Whittney (37:38):
One person you didn't mention, who I thought was a
scene stealer that we'vereferenced a little bit already,
is Mia McKenna Bruce as Mary.
I thought she acted.
So beautifully in this role.
Her timing, as we've alreadytouched on was great.
(37:59):
She was just wonderful.
and she was hard to tear youreyes away from for different
reasons than Dakota.
And Henry Golding.
I've never really beeninterested in the character of
Mr.
William Elliott until thismovie.
And I think that is entirelyHenry Golding's doing.
Because...
(38:20):
I mean, he is very easy on theeyes, and he is extremely
charming, and that came throughvery strongly for me in this.
I think Cosmo as Wentworth wasan interesting choice, but I
understand it because he had towork for his wealth, right?
He had to...
(38:40):
Enlist in the Navy, and work hisway up, and so he's not gonna be
as polished in speech as some ofthe other folks he's gonna have
to have learned it, and so Ithought Cosmo did a nice job of
showing that but I think if youdon't know the story, he may
have come off a little awkwardthroughout, and you wouldn't
(39:03):
have understood why I say thisbecause When Nate was watching
this with me recently, so Icould brush up on Persuasion
this version.
He was like, this guy?
Why this guy?
And I'm like, it, there's somany layers of nuance at play
here that you're notunderstanding.
Susan (39:22):
Right.
Yeah.
Commenting on that, I know Devintexted me and said, Wentworth
talks like a lug, but I agreewith you.
I thought about the same thingsthat you're just saying is that
he definitely did seem like acharacter who had.
Evolved over time, someone whomaybe came from humble
beginnings that then becamesomeone more notable with rank.
(39:43):
I feel like if he had startedout more sophisticated or, you
know, not talking like a lug,maybe we wouldn't believe his
character evolution as much.
And I did like him.
I felt like he had a verypleasant quality though.
Like he seemed very humble andit was an interesting choice,
but I did enjoy him.
And I did like Henry Golding, ofcourse, but I didn't love him as
(40:04):
much as I loved him in crazyrich Asians.
I was saying to Devin, I don'tknow.
I feel like it was just the wayhe was dressed.
His collar was like up too highand I just felt like he seemed
like just so stiff and, I stillthink he was a good choice.
I just, I wasn't as wooed by himas you might expect.
but I wanted to add a side noteabout and father, who I
(40:26):
mentioned earlier was played byRichard E.
Grant.
I thought he was great and itmakes me realize that he is just
one of many in this long line offantastic actors playing fathers
in Jane Austen films, includingDonald Sutherland in Pride and
Prejudice, Bill Nighy in the2020 remake of Emma.
Maybe Donald Sutherland'scharacter was a little bit
(40:47):
different, but I think this BillNighy character who is Emma's
father and this character.
were very similar to me.
They were just like very ironicand humorous and they were also
scene stealers.
So just interesting that hecontinued in that eccentric
quirky father character.
Devon (41:05):
Yes, definitely, Susan.
The Austin patriarchs definitelyunique and quirky in their own
right, and they do tend to stealthe scenes in these adaptations,
and so Richard E.
Grant wasn't a disappointment inthat.
regard, but I would say thatthis movie was held by the
women.
(41:25):
The lady, the female cast, Ithought was absolutely terrific
with the lead of Dakota Johnsonwith the whole film on her,
shoulders.
I think she was effortlesslyable to carry that.
Mia McKenna.
Bruce as Mary was a scenestealer.
She was just such a drip.
She was so annoying.
I think she pulled off hercharacter just the way that the
(41:47):
filmmakers hoped her to do.
And I also, I loved Nia Toll asLouisa Musgrave.
I thought that While DakotaJohnson had this glow about her
when Louisa came on screen, Iwas thinking to myself, Wow,
she's beautiful too, and sheseems so lovely And likable that
I really wouldn't be upset ifshe ended up getting Wentworth
(42:09):
because She was just lovely, andI really liked her, and I was
sad when...
Her character was injured and wenever saw her again.
So I missed her when sheabruptly exited the storyline
and was only referred to lateron in passing.
And I also thought anotherstandout was Anne's confidant,
(42:32):
Lady Russell, played by NikkiAmooka Bird.
I thought her scenes wereterrific.
You could feel a genuinefriendship between Anne and Lady
Russell.
And I felt like Lady Russell wastruly the only equivalent person
of character to Anne Elliot, theequivalent in intelligence and
(42:52):
wit and wisdom.
And it was so good for AnneElliot to look up to, I guess,
that mother figure.
And so I thought that NikkiAmooka Byrd was terrific in that
role and that.
Ultimately, the men sort of fallaway from me in my eyes.
Henry Golding and Cosmo Jarvisthey were there, but really the
people who were interesting tome were the female cast.
(43:15):
they were the bright stars ofthis production.
Susan (43:18):
I also want to add that the diversity in this film.
I thought was something to beapplauded.
Now you can correct me, but Idon't believe there was
diversity in the otheradaptations that I've seen.
So I was really pleased to seethat.
in this version.
And I love like with Bridgertonactually how they're just
seamlessly weaving in diversitywithout it being any point of
(43:40):
conversation, which is how itshould be.
Shouldn't be like, Oh, why whyis there character of such and
such a race?
It does not matter.
A person's a person.
And I really loved that they didthat so seamlessly in this film.
And it was just so wonderful toAll sorts of different cultures
and races just mixing togetherin this film so perfectly.
And I really enjoyed that.
as Devin said, I felt the womenwere incredibly strong and they
(44:04):
were absolutely lovelyactresses.
And I thought the casting wasexcellent.
Whittney (44:09):
Yeah, I agree, Devon, something you said about Lady
Russell in prior adaptations, Iwas not sure why Anne would have
taken Lady Russell's advice soto heart why would she make the
biggest decision of her lifebased on the advice of Lady
Russell?
Because in previous adaptations,we know she's a friend of Anne's
(44:33):
late mother, Whereas in thisone, I believed that Lady
Russell was wise and warm andcaring, and I could understand
why she would have let her Makethat choice for her, right?
That she would have taken heradvice so to heart that she
would have made this Lifealtering decision as a result.
Devon (44:54):
Yes I agree, I think that was their relationship.
Even though they had very fewscenes together, she was, she
played a very small role, thetime that they did have on
screen, it seemed like anauthentic.
Authentic relationship.
Whittney (45:10):
they had mother daughter chemistry.
Devon (45:12):
Definitely.
Susan (45:14):
Well, ladies, I'm curious.
What are your thoughts on thechemistry between Ann and
Wentworth or even Ann andWilliam Elliott for that matter?
Was there any chemistry?
What were your thoughts on thoseparticular interactions or
relationships?
Whittney (45:29):
Dev, I know you have very strong thoughts on this, so
why don't you share yours first?
Devon (45:36):
Well, when you have a character like Dakota Johnson,
and she's just has this etherealbeauty about her, and she's wit
and charm and whimsy, andthey've just set her up to just
be just this delightful personthat we all wish we could be.
Then they bring in Cosmo Jarvis,who played the role like a
moping football player.
(45:58):
He didn't come across to me asdashing, or rich, or a
successful, reputable captain.
Although, to be honest, I'venever really met a ship captain,
so I don't know if he would belike one or not.
But one review I read likenedhis charms to Sylvester
Stallone, and I would agree withthis.
(46:19):
Actually, I was thinking ofsomething very similar when I
was watching the movie.
There was a thick neckedearnestness to his performance.
He just, he looked like a saddog walking around, and...
Although I wouldn't believe thatthere was a sharp intelligence
or depth behind those sad eyes,I can understand that he might
(46:39):
be appealing to some.
As far as Henry Golding, histime was So brief and his
initial appearance was sort ofdone So confusingly that wasn't
really given a chance to makemuch of an impression.
So none of the male charactersreally were.
They just were side charactersto the females who are much more
(47:01):
interesting.
So I would say maybe Anneactually had the most chemistry
with her brother in law.
He seemed rather pleasant andhandsome and rich, so maybe he
was a little more carved out.
Susan (47:13):
Didn't He propose to her first?
Whittney (47:15):
did.
Susan (47:16):
So there you go.
Devon (47:18):
You feel bad for him being saddled with a sister and
you're just wondering he seemslike a really nice guy and a
nice dad and his children areadorable and maybe he'd be the
most interesting lead if he wasgiven that chance.
Mm
Susan (47:32):
You know, I was thinking about Cosmo Jarvis.
I mean, I kind of agree withthings that you're saying.
Like he did seem like maybe hecame from the cast of varsity
blues or something, but I thinkwhat I liked him was Just, I
feel like I was seeing him likethrough her eyes.
She said all these wonderfulthings about him.
He listens with his whole body.
She gave all these praises anddescriptions about him.
(47:54):
And so I feel like I was reallyviewing him through like how she
felt about him, maybe more thanhow I personally felt about him.
Devon (48:01):
Mm
Whittney (48:01):
I often wonder if that's the point, because it's
interesting, whenever Nate and Iwere watching this, again, like
I said, just to brush up beforewe recorded this episode, he was
perplexed by the, choice too,but...
Devin, you said you've never meta ship's captain.
I work with and know severalNavy veterans.
(48:22):
And they're not super outgoing.
Because, I don't know if youknow anything about being on a
ship or being in a submarine.
Submarines are even worse.
The most conflict averse peopleI've ever met have spent time on
a submarine.
Because, you can't argue withanybody on a submarine, Because
you're underwater with them forfour months at a time at least.
Devon (48:41):
You can't get away.
Whittney (48:42):
get away.
So I wonder if part of whatyou're seeing on screen that
isn't translating might be someof that angle to his character
that Cosmo is putting into it?
You have to just keep it in.
And like he was saying, he wouldthink, what would Anne do
whenever he needed courage,right?
Because he doesn't see himselfas this dashing captain.
(49:05):
That's
Devon (49:05):
Mm hmm.
Whittney (49:06):
perception of him and his successes.
He thinks that Anne is still thestar, and he is just captivated
by her, right?
Devon (49:14):
Yes, I'd be curious to see this actor in another role
just to see if he has any othertype of dimension to him or if
this really was a consciouschoice of the way he was acting
it.
You may be giving him morecredit than is due to him, or
maybe you're right.
Maybe he is getting into thepsychology of a shipmate, of a
ship captain.
I, I truly don't know.
(49:35):
I've never seen this characterbefore.
Don't know if I visually see,him and Dakota Johnson as a hot
pairing, but he was pleasantenough.
Susan (49:45):
I think it worked.
I think it worked.
I did.
I it was believable to, me, atleast.
I was rooting for them and washappy that they ended up
together.
Whittney (49:55):
yeah, fun fact, he is Half Armenian, so he also, while
maybe not it wasn'toverwhelmingly obvious, is
bringing some diversity to thisrole as Well,
Devon (50:11):
Yes.
Yeah.
Susan (50:13):
in one of the reviews I was listening to it might've
been, I was listening to so manydifferent reviews on my drive
back to Philly yesterday.
Surprisingly, if you just Googlelike persuasion reviews, all of
these come up and there wasactually one podcast I
discovered, I think it was theBridgerton brothers and they
were joking about, first of all,they thought that.
The name Frederick Wentworth wasnot very romantic.
(50:36):
They were like, he's noFitzwilliam Darcy.
They're like Fred Wentworth.
They were just joking that thisdidn't seem like a very like
dashing leading man name.
But I think again, that's thepoint, because he came from
these humble beginnings.
Maybe he's not going to havethis very regal name, but then
they were also joking about theactor and they're like, Cosmo,
isn't that Cosmo Kramer firstname from.
(50:58):
From Seinfeld, they were givinghim a hard time, but I really do
feel like he was definitely a,the role.
And I kind of appreciated thatbecause it wasn't just like the
traditional leading man that youwould expect.
And I think that fits with whatthe character is supposed to be.
Whittney (51:13):
Yeah.
also in my current region in NewHampshire, Wentworth is actually
a very wealthy name becausethere is a resort by the ocean
And a very fancy and expensivehotel and spa called Wentworth
by the Sea.
Susan (51:29):
Ooh, well
Whittney (51:31):
but I mean, again, I live in a very big Navy area, so
he would fit right in here.
Susan (51:38):
Well, even worth any worth in Wentworth interesting.
Whittney (51:44):
Yeah.
Let's talk about our overallreviews of the film.
And out of five stars, fivebeing the highest I'm gonna
quote Mr.
Frederick Wentworth, or Captainslash future Admiral Wentworth.
I am half agony, half hope,which is in his letter that he
writes to Anne.
(52:05):
Susan, Devin, will you be sidingwith hope or agony in your
review?
Susan (52:10):
So I'm going to side for the positive when thinking about
the rating for this film I'vebeen thinking about its purpose.
And just as I would teach mystudents in class, the purpose
of a text is either to persuade.
So no pun intended with thechoice of words here to inform
or entertain.
And I think the purpose of thisparticular film.
Maybe different than some otheradaptations of this was to
(52:30):
entertain.
And I feel that for me it didthat it.
felt light, refreshing, and fun.
And when I watch things, I trynot to overanalyze and just kind
of enjoy it for what it.
is.
So even though in the back of mymind I was like, oh, that's an
interesting choice, or that'sdifferent.
I really didn't let that playinto how I felt about the film
overall.
I just enjoyed it.
And for me personally, I reallyliked it.
(52:50):
I think I would give it maybeit's not quite a four, maybe
like a three and a half, closeto a four, a I really did like
it.
I would recommend it I thinkit's just like a nice breezy
afternoon watch with some teaand some pound cake and I would
definitely rewatch it.
Whittney (53:08):
Yeah I know Devin is potentially our hardest critic,
but I'm pretty aligned with you,Susie, on the stars.
I was thinking in my head, threeand a half, three seven five,
and I just had to say that nowthat you literally said three
seven five out loud.
Again, for me, it.
was entertaining.
There are obviously things thatcould have been a little bit
(53:29):
better, but It was an enjoyablefun romp through my favorite
Austen book.
Alright, Debbie.
Devon (53:38):
I think overall I'd give this a 3 out of 5.
Nothing really special, but ithad some nice cinematography.
I appreciated the attempts atcreativity and freshness.
And I too was trying to notjudge it as an Austin
adaptation, but just as a movie.
and.
as a movie, I would say, itneeded more for me in terms of
(53:58):
character and story development.
Some things happened so quickly.
Some things were a, littleconfusing.
I wish that there was more.
We could understand how and and.
Mr.
Wentworth met, have a little bitmore understanding about the
family dynamics, about thehistory.
There was just, there werepieces of the story that I
wanted more of and so maybe forme that will just, that's just a
(54:20):
call to go novel.
But as a viewer and a lover ofmovies being able to get that
information from a movie isimportant too.
Not just to say, okay I'll goback and read the book, but to
be able to watch the movie asits own.
and its own thing.
I think it's important to havesome more of those details just
to give the audience somethingmore to chew on.
(54:42):
So overall, I'll say three outof five.
Dakota Johnson was beautiful.
Really enjoyed those femaleactresses.
fun for what it was.
Susan (54:50):
Yeah, I agree.
That was great.
Well, it was so much fundiscussing this with you, Devin,
as always.
We love our literature andmovie, you know, anything text
discussion.
So thank you so much for beingon today.
Devon (55:02):
Well, thank you for having me.
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