December 16, 2024 • 52 mins
The CopDoc Podcast - Season 7 - Episode 143
This episode originally aired in October 2022 (ep. 89) Shon has been the COP in Madison, WI since 2021. He was inducted into the Center for Evidence-based Policing Hall of Fame!
Prepare to be inspired by the journey of Chief Sean Barnes as he shares his unique path from serving in the US Marine Corps to leading the Madison, Wisconsin Police Department. Chief Barnes opens up about the transformative power of evidence-based policing and the SARA model, he first encountered in Greensboro, North Carolina.
His commitment to lifelong learning led him to pursue a PhD in leadership studies, influenced by his wife and mentors like Dr. Theron Bowman. Through his experiences, Chief Barnes exemplifies how strong leadership can forge effective policing strategies and strengthen community relations in today's world.
Chief Barnes candidly reflects on his leadership challenges and triumphs in Madison, revealing the critical balance between engaging with the community and maintaining internal department cohesion. His early missteps taught him the importance of prioritizing trust and accountability within the force and with the public. Chief Barnes fosters an environment where authenticity and relatability thrive by connecting personally with officers and remaining vulnerable. Ride-alongs and personal stories have become pillars of his leadership approach, showcasing the value of building genuine connections with colleagues and community members.
Discover the innovative initiatives that Chief Barnes has spearheaded, focusing on mental health, cultural awareness, and the professionalization of policing. From establishing mental health officers to embracing models like CAHOOTS, the Madison Police Department is at the forefront of progressive policing strategies. Chief Barnes also discusses the impact of programs like LEADS and the 30 by 30 initiative, which aim to increase the representation of women in law enforcement. By examining racial disparities and reflecting on events like the George Floyd protests, Chief Barnes emphasizes the need for actionable outcomes from community dialogues, driving meaningful change in 21st-century policing.
Contact us: copdoc.podcast@gmail.com
Website: www.copdocpodcast.com
If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at stephen.morreale@gmail.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Intro Outro (00:02):
Welcome to the CopDoc Podcast.
This podcast explores policeleadership issues and innovative
ideas.
The CopDoc shares thoughts andideas as he talks with leaders
in policing communities,academia and other government
agencies.
Steve Morreale (00:29):
And now please join Dr Steve Morreale and
industry thought leaders as theyshare their insights and
experience on the CopDoc podcast.
Well, hello everybody.
This is Steve Morreale.
I'm coming to you from Boston.
This is another episode of theCopDoc podcast.
We're having some technicaldifficulties so I apologize in
advance.
This is being conducted by cellphone.
But I am gratified, and one ofthe reasons I'm pushing through
is because Sean Barnes is a busyguy.
And talking to Chief Sean Barnesfrom the Madison, wisconsin
(00:52):
Police Department Good morning,good morning, sir.
How are you?
I'm fine, thank you.
You look all prettied up inyour white shirt, your many
stars and the Madison policepatch behind you.
I want to thank you for cominghere.
I've been looking forward tohaving a chat with you.
As you know, one of the thingsthat we talk about here is
what's going on in policingtoday.
What about leadership?
Sometimes there is a vacuum inleadership.
I know that you are a servicemember with the Marines.
(01:15):
Thank you for your service.
Also, you unusually have a PhDin leadership studies, which is
amazing.
You've been at three or fourdifferent agencies, so I'd like
you to explain for the audiencewhat your route was from the
Marines into policing and themany jobs that brought you to
Madison.
Shon Barnes (01:30):
Yeah well, first of all, thank you for having me
and giving me an opportunity toshare my thoughts on policing.
I got to tell you that Istarted out my professional
career as a public schoolteacher, so my undergraduate
degree is in history pre-law.
So I was a US history teacher,world civilization teacher at a
public high school in NorthCarolina before changing over
(01:50):
and doing something a little bitsafer and deciding to be a
police officer.
Steve Morreale (01:54):
A little safer, huh, go ahead.
Shon Barnes (01:56):
I've always been someone that really valued
service.
Parents really taught us thatvalue of being on this planet is
what you can do for others.
I have a younger brother.
I'm the oldest of three.
I have a younger brother who'sa police officer now he's a full
resource officer down in NorthCarolina and my sister is a
daycare provider and so we'vealways had that in us, and so
(02:16):
just being able to be a part ofa police department where I
started my career in Greensboro,north Carolina, really shaped
who I am today.
Learning about problem-orientedpolicing from Herman Goldstein,
one of the things that reallydrew me to Madison and in
Greensboro.
Problem-oriented policing wassomething that you had to do.
It was totally infused intoeverything that we did at all
(02:39):
levels.
Whether you were a rookieofficer or whether you were a
captain.
Everyone had to be involved inthis thing that we call the
Sarah model, and so I reallylearned at a very young age in
policing to value evidence-basedpolicing and to value what
works best truly to decreasecrime while at the same time
(03:00):
increasing citizen satisfactionwith police.
Steve Morreale (03:03):
So you started back there in North Carolina and
after a stint with the USMarine Corps and then it looks
like you started to at whatpoint in time did you say I want
to learn more?
I presume, in order for you todo that, you had to have the
mindset of a lifelong learner,and may I say what a crazy bunch
(03:24):
of fools we are to take thestep towards a doctorate, but
it's a hard road, especiallywhen you're working.
I know you've had thatexperience, as I did.
But what made you move in thatdirection, Sean.
Shon Barnes (03:35):
You know, a combination of things, one, my
wife being a PhD as well, twoPhDs in cancer, biology and
toxicology.
Steve Morreale (03:46):
Yeah, that's sort of like ours, huh.
Shon Barnes (03:48):
Not quite.
Steve Morreale (03:50):
Yes, sir.
Shon Barnes (03:51):
Go ahead.
He just really set an examplefor my entire family and I love
being a student, I love being inthe classroom and I worked on a
master's degree at theUniversity of Cincinnati and
worked under Dr Robin Engel anda few other Cullen oh my
goodness, the list goes on andon John Eck, and so, just, you
(04:13):
know, just being around them,you know they kind of made
research and evidence-basedpolicing kind of cool to me and
understanding, hey, you know theway I police, I'm on to
something right and seeing thatthrough research really really
spoke to me.
But I was at the University ofLouisville in 2012, in the
Southern Police Institute, yes,and we had a residency expert
(04:38):
come in and that was Dr TheronBowman, who at the time was the
chief of police in Arlington,texas, who went on to become
city manager, runs a consultinggroup now, and he told us he
says, listen, you know, thefeature of policing is a law
degree or a PhD.
And he says you know, I preferthe PhD because the PhD isn't
about, it's not about having allthe answers, it's about knowing
(05:02):
the right questions to ask andthen applying the scientific
method in order to reach aconclusion.
And when he said that a lightbulb just kind of went off in me
and I just started searchingand doing a little praying and
really asking you know, god, toshow me the right program that
would be a good fit for me.
(05:22):
You know, a lot of people gointo PhD programs and don't
finish because it's more aboutyou know, the letters at the end
rather than the process.
I wanted a program that wouldbe about the process and I found
a program in leadership studiesin Greensboro, where I was
living at the time, and theprogram was really a good fit.
It was tailored to me and Ithought that what's really
(05:43):
missing in policing, if you wantto be a 21st century policing
agency, is leadership, and Iknow you've read the president's
task force on 21st centurypolicing.
But I think a big part of thatthat could have been explored a
little bit more is leadershipand how you can have the best
(06:04):
laid plans or schemes to quoteBurns, mice and men but if you
don't have the leadership,planning, execution, it really
is not going to matter.
And so I wanted to learn how tobe a better leader, because I
felt like that was thetrajectory of my career.
Steve Morreale (06:22):
You know we're talking to Sean Barnes.
He's the chief of police inMadison.
He is Dr Sean Barnes.
Also, we're going to be talkingabout a couple of things.
I do apologize because the theaudio today is not the best.
We're working through cellphones because of some technical
issues on my my end, but I didnot want to let this lie.
But, sean, one of the thingsthat I'm beginning to write a
(06:43):
book on leadership, uh, one ofthe things that I'm beginning to
write a book on leadership, andone of the reasons is I'm
trying to stay away from beingtext and making it more useful
to people in the field.
One of the things that Istarted and I've heard it's not
I don't own it and, by the way,I, like you, don't know
everything.
I'm constantly learning.
I'll learn from you today, butone of the quotes that I start
(07:06):
in my draft is leadership.
It's on you, but it's not aboutyou, and I'd like to get your
reaction to that, because Ipresume there is somebody in
your life that saw value in youand brought you along, and so,
to me, one of the things thatleadership is about is
(07:27):
identifying promising people andhelping them develop and giving
them opportunities to blossom,and I presume that's something
that you do routinely.
That's a guess on my part, butI don't think you could get
where you are without bringingother people along with you.
Tell me what you think aboutthat.
Shon Barnes (07:45):
No, I think that's a great quote, and there's a
quote that I use a lot is thatyou know, good leaders have to
be able to recognize talent inothers, and so that just comes
from my experience, where peoplepull me aside and had me
involved in various projects andI was doing research as a
lieutenant and things of thatnature being able to show your
(08:09):
talent, your skill set and thendeveloping people.
And you're right, leadership iscertainly not about you and
those leaders who may listen tothis.
My question for you is or whatwe sometimes used to call the
leadership test who are youmentoring?
Who are you cultivating?
Your legacy should be thosepeople that you brought up, and
(08:34):
when you look at your resume,when you look at your CV, is it
a list of things that you havedone or is it a list of things
that you have gotten donethrough the talents of others?
And so I always think aboutthat.
I was counseling a friend ofmine recently who's trying to
get promoted and he was tellingme about all the things that he
did as a captain and this isthat.
(08:55):
So that's great, but who arethe people who can say you help
them reach their goals and theirobjectives.
I have a saying when I meetwith my command staff and they
always laugh.
I'm like listen, I know I'myour agent.
Right, I'm your agent.
It's my job to make your dreamscome true, but you got to help
me as well.
They always laugh about that.
(09:17):
But that's really the role ofleadership.
If you do some reading KenBlanchard is one of my favorites
, if you read his books onservant leadership he talks
about that.
He talks about picking thattraditional triangle and
flipping it upside down and juststop sending decision making up
and information down and justflip it and allow people to do
(09:39):
the work, and so I'm a reallybig fan of his and that's
something that really shaped myleadership philosophy.
Steve Morreale (09:45):
I love the term you just said.
I'm your agent.
I'm sure you're not charging10%, but that's a pretty neat
point of view.
I really enjoy that.
So you have moved around andit's so unusual in many cases to
see a police chief that hasmoved around and has seen
different processes.
And I was just writingyesterday that in many cases
(10:07):
your leadership approach is anamalgamation of many different
people that you have come uponand that could be coaches and
teachers and it could be bosses,both good and bad.
But it seems to me that you'rea customization of a bunch of
little things and learning alongthe way as you've moved through
police departments.
We didn't talk about Chicago,and now here you are in Madison.
(10:29):
I want to ask a question.
Let's say Salisbury and Madisonspecifically.
Here you are, the big honcho.
Salisbury you're trying tofigure out how to be a chief
right here.
You've already been a chief,but now you're trying to figure
out how to be a chief in Madison, wisconsin.
You've already been a chief,but now you're trying to figure
out how to be a chief in Madison, wisconsin, somewhere you had
never been Right.
It's a capital city.
It's a.
It's a.
It's a.
It's a university city.
(10:50):
So please tell us what happenedin your first little little bit
when you got there Was most ofit listening, was most of it
trying to figure out andengaging your command staff and
the rest of the people aboutwhere they've been.
I know I've brought, I'vewalked in and say what are you
most proud of?
What have you done?
(11:10):
What kind of obstacles are?
Are there that I can help moveout of the way to get you to be
more productive?
Tell us your approach, sean.
Shon Barnes (11:19):
Yeah, so you know, when I came to Madison this is
the second time I've come toMadison I came here when I was
two years old, my mother,madison, to live with, with her
big brother, my uncle, who was astudent at UW Madison.
She stayed for a little whileand then, of course, went back
to North Carolina when I wasborn and raised.
So this is my second stint, butthe first time I don't remember
(11:41):
at two years old.
But you know this, this answer,you know, maybe a little
shocking to you, but I made alot of mistakes when I first
came here, and one of themistakes that I made was trying
to balance my time.
You know, 2020, 2021 was adifficult year for law
enforcement.
(12:01):
It was unprecedented, as youknow.
Yes, we've caused for defundthe police with, in our city,
180 days of straight protests,and I saw one of the major
issues as bridging the gapbetween the community and the
police officers, and in order todo that, I needed to stop the
protests, and so I spent atremendous amount of time
(12:25):
meeting with protesters in theback of coffee shops, in the
back of people's homes.
I reached out to everyone and Itook a lot of criticism for
policing in general, only to beable to have a conversation and
say will you give us anopportunity?
Give us an opportunity.
And they did that.
And when the verdict was read,there were people who were ready
(12:48):
to protest, no matter what theverdict was, and I was able,
with some community members, toprevent that.
But on the other end, it meantthat I didn't spend as much time
internally with the officers asI should have.
And my predecessor was verywell-liked, he came from within
(13:10):
and he had kind of, like youknow, almost kind of a father
figure approach to leadership,and that's something that I
would never be able to recreate.
But the officers were expectingme to spend a little bit more
time getting to know them than Iactually did, and so, because I
saw the biggest issue aspreventing additional protests,
(13:34):
but they saw the biggest issueas wanting to get to know me,
wanting to know that they'resupported by me, and so I
probably spent, you know, 60% ofmy time with the community, you
know, and then another 20% withelected officials who were
trying to defund us, and then Iprobably spent 20% of my time
(13:54):
internally, and I should nothave done that.
I should have balanced my time alittle bit more, and so I've
had to since things have calmeddown kind of reinvent myself
with the officers.
But that's one thing that Ilearned from my experience as a
teacher.
I had someone say if you have abad day, erase everything on
the board and go home.
(14:15):
When you come home, guess what?
That board is blank and you canput whatever you want on it.
And so I look at that.
I look at things that I've beensuccessful at, things that I
have not been so successful at,as another opportunity to get it
right the next day.
Steve Morreale (14:30):
Well, that's quite an admission and I
appreciate you being so candidbecause, as you as you work,
it's part of it's not your fault.
That was a horrible time thatwe went through and it's it's
not.
It's not completely behind usyet, but I think you know what I
was hearing you say thatexternal relationships and
external communication andbuilding trust was so important
(14:53):
at that, at that juncture, andso talk about relationships,
trust and accountability insideand outside.
Shon Barnes (15:02):
Yeah, absolutely so , I'll talk about um inside.
Yeah, absolutely so, I'll talkabout inside.
So, inside, at this time inpolicing, police officers want
to know that they are supported,but what they have problems
doing is defining what thatlooks like.
Well, I want you to go tobattle for me, I want you to
(15:23):
fight for me.
I said, okay, well, if there'snothing to fight for, then you
don't see me out there fighting.
That doesn't mean that you'renot supported, right?
And so one of the things that Itry to do is ride along.
It's a constant theme of what Ido.
I did a ride along.
I actually went out andpatrolled an entire weekend and
(15:45):
I had the media came out andthey rode with me for one hour,
but then I had the entireweekend to myself and some
officers saw that, but some onlysaw the news clip.
So it's like, well, he's justdoing this for publicity.
That was one hour of 48 hoursof a weekend that.
(16:05):
I spent.
They didn't see the footpatrols on State Street that
Saturday night.
They didn't see the call that Itook at the AC hotel or a hotel
where there was a disturbance,and you know they didn't see all
of that, and so it's reallydifficult sometimes when you're
playing from behind onestablishing relationships.
But when it comes to theexternal, I look at it like this
(16:27):
we have to be vulnerable, wehave to be able to admit where
we've made mistakes but thenshow how we're working to
improve those mistakes, and wecan't pretend that we're perfect
.
I certainly don't do that, andpeople see through that and it
begins with just being a humanbeing.
You know, I always lead with mypersonality.
(16:50):
I do a lot of public speakingaround town and almost every
week I'm speaking to one or twogroups and I always kind of lead
with who I am.
You know, I talk about theexperience with my father.
I talk about my mother cominghere, I talk about my children.
I talk about who I am, becausebefore I'm Chief Barnes I am
Sean.
Right, that's who I am.
(17:10):
I'm a person that was raised,you know, by two loving parents,
two hardworking parents, towtruck driver you won't find a
harder working person than amechanic that owns their own
business, and my mother was anurse, you know, one of the most
noble professions that thereare, and so you know I try to
(17:32):
lead with that.
Then I did get into hey, whatcan we do to build the
relationships you know?
I really think that it's timethat police leaders in America
acknowledge some of the issuesthat people are experiencing.
We have to acknowledge massincarcerations.
In 1974, when I was born, therewere about 600,000 people in
(17:56):
prisons in the US.
Now there are 2.3 millionpeople, and it doesn't just
affect that person, it affectsat least five other people who
love them in some way.
On drugs, these tough on crimethings, and not embracing
(18:20):
restorative justice, notembracing evidence-based
policing, not embracing the factthat it's easier and cheaper,
by the way, to prevent crimethan it is to respond to it has
really hurt us in policing.
And so having a PhD has givenme the opportunity to learn more
about culture, about people,about planning and being able to
(18:42):
bring those things to myleadership style as a chief of
police, and all that isimportant.
If you're going to establishtrust.
You establish trust byvoluntarily giving information
about what's really going on.
You don't establish trust bynot giving information, and so
we're trying to create a policedepartment here in Madison that
is transparent to our community.
We're trying to create a policedepartment that is responsive
(19:05):
to the needs of our community,and I always go back to Bobby
Kennedy.
Every community gets theircriminal it deserves, but they
get the law enforcement thatthey insist on.
And so when people talk to meabout why are we doing things a
certain way, you should have ananswer to that question, and
that answer should be rooted insome type of evidence-based
(19:26):
policing strategy.
Terrific.
Steve Morreale (19:28):
Good to hear and using data and all of that
stuff, and we'll get into thatin a minute.
But you know, one of the thingsI'm hearing and I'm quite
curious because I want to stayon the leadership track for a
moment I'd like you to share, ifyou would.
And, by the way, we're talkingto Sean Barnes.
Dr Sean Barnes, who's the chiefof police in Madison, wisconsin
, originally from North Carolina, and I do apologize, as you're
(19:51):
listening, that the audio is notas good as we would normally
have because we're operating ona cell phone because of
technical difficulties they have.
But, sean, back to you, yourcommand staff meetings.
Talk about how you set those upin the beginning to almost set
expectations.
My sense is you don't know itall, I don't know it all and
(20:14):
that you're only as good as yourpeople.
And if you, if you askquestions I like Mark Watt's
work, leading through questions,leading with questions and I'm
curious to know what a staffmeeting is like now at Madison
as opposed to when you firststarted and how you began to
steer it with your command staffstarted and how you began to
(20:38):
steer it with your command staff.
Shon Barnes (20:39):
Yeah, and so you know, to leaders listening, you
got to understand that everymeeting.
There's three meetings, right.
There's the meeting before themeeting, where you set your
agenda and people talk aboutwhere they are, they align
themselves.
There's the actual meeting andthen, most importantly, there's
a meeting after the meeting,when people get together and go.
What is this guy talking about?
I don't know if I want to dothis, but you have to know that.
So what we do is you know, ifthere's a hot button topic, if
(21:03):
there's a restructuring that wehave going on, or we're looking
at promotions or whatever.
You know, I try to spend timewith key personnel personnel.
We have a Monday meeting whereit's just me and senior command
staff, assistant chiefs and thedirector and we talk about a few
(21:24):
things.
And then, you know, during themanagement team meeting, the
command staff meeting, beforethat, you know, I will let
captains know where I stand on afew issues to see where they
are.
You know, the main thing isdon't surprise me If you know
I'm supporting a particulardirection.
You know, don't surprise mewith.
You know, hey, chief, I don't,I don't understand this.
You have an opportunity to dothat before we get in a public
(21:44):
setting and then we giveeverybody and everyone an
opportunity to talk about it.
Number one you have to makesure that you're following
policy.
That's the first thing.
Number two if there's a unioncontract, you need to make sure
that you don't violate the unioncontract or that you understand
that you will have to have anMOU in order to get this thing
done.
And then, number three, givingthem an opportunity to have
(22:06):
input.
And then, most importantly, howwill this decision affect the
people who who are on thestreets?
How will this affect yournon-commissioned staff?
How will this affect yourofficers who are on the streets?
How will this affect yournon-commissioned staff?
How will this affect yourofficers who are on the beat?
And then that is what shouldguide your decision-making.
Oftentimes, leaders makedecisions that don't affect them
(22:29):
but certainly affect the peopleon the ground, without
considering that, and I try notto do that.
I remember what that was like.
When decisions come down.
It's like, okay, you're goingto do this, you're going to do
that, and then you look and itdoesn't affect them.
That's an easy decision to make, but it should be a hard
decision to make because you'reconsidering them.
And then the meeting after themeeting, let's talk about that
(22:52):
when you get out of that meeting.
You have to know, for thosethat are listening, that they're
going to talk, they're going togo have coffee, they're going
to see each other in the hallway, there's going to be a text,
there will be a meeting afterthe meeting.
What you want is to have arepresentative in that that can
say hey, I understand how youfeel.
(23:12):
Let's at least give it a shot.
Let's at least give it a try.
Let's at least give it a try.
We know the old joke.
You've heard it a thousandtimes.
Two things cops don't like theway things are and change.
So that tends to be the case inevery police department I've
ever been on.
But what helps out tremendouslyis giving them some voice in
your decision making voice inyour decision making.
Steve Morreale (23:39):
Well, so I think , when you're speaking about
that, that sometimes and oftenin our repertoire of trying to
figure out how to make adecision is to understand what
intended consequences might comefrom a change in policy.
But one of the things thatstrikes me as a professor and
teaching strategic planning orpolicy and such is, you know, I
think, my guess again, sean, youwould not survive if you did
(24:01):
not believe that policies arenot etched in stone, that as new
information comes up, that wehave to be able to be nimble and
recognize.
Oops, there is a clause missingabout that.
I think about body worn camsand how that might have come.
Do you have it in Madison BWCs?
Shon Barnes (24:20):
I am trying to get a body-worn pilot.
It's been eight years in themaking.
Steve Morreale (24:25):
I have city council agreeing to allow me to
do a pilot, but I still have alittle ways to go, I understand,
but in terms of policymakingand policy revision, is that a
part of your approach?
Bring forward any problems wehave with a new policy so we can
tweak it to make sure that itdoesn't have unintended
consequences that would hamperthe ability of the police
(24:48):
department and police officersto to follow those policies
policies.
Shon Barnes (24:58):
Yeah, so, first of all, for anyone who's listening,
every policy should have anexpiration date.
That forces leaders to reviewthose policies and make sure
that they are current, up todate and that it's not being
inequitable to anyone who may beviolating that policy.
That's the first thing.
Additionally, I would add thatpolicies are a guide and, just
like the Bible, there's not aday that goes by that you don't
(25:19):
violate something that's in it,and you have to know that as a
leader.
You know, is this a mistake ofthe mind or is this?
A lot of special events here?
A lot of.
We have Ironman here this week,we had CrossFit Games and you
know we have these briefings.
(25:40):
We set out what the policy isfor, everything from traffic
being shut down you name it wordwhen they're leaving briefing.
I say critical thinking is moreimportant than policy.
I want to establish anorganization that understands
(26:01):
that.
Yes, we have a policy, but youare allowed, under my leadership
, to bring your brain to work.
You are allowed to makecritical decisions when you need
to and if you do that.
I think you're going to be okay,Because, again, we can't write
a policy for absolutelyeverything, but some of the
major things that we do, we justrevise our policy around
(26:24):
protests.
I think it's very, veryprogressive.
I think it gives officers a lotof autonomy not to intervene
and to use other mechanisms toprevent people who may be
thinking about disruptingprotests and demonstrations.
And so you know, we're justtrying to improve.
That's one of our core valuescontinuous improvement.
(26:45):
I think we do that probablybetter than any organizations
I've ever been a part of.
Steve Morreale (26:50):
So, as you have evolved as a chief and been a
number of different policedepartments, it seems to me one
of the things we brushed on afew moments ago was the
important of mentoring othersand coaching others.
And so you have new people whoyou've decided to promote never
(27:10):
mind hire, but promote.
And how important areconversations with you, setting
expectations, helping to frametheir thoughts, how important,
as a leader, listening becomesand coaching becomes, and
(27:32):
adopting a more 21st centuryperspective in the way we
interact with others.
What's part of your repertoire?
Shon Barnes (27:41):
Part of my repertoire is meeting with
people and giving people anopportunity to talk.
So I have skip level meetingswith every rank.
I have skip level meetings withjust me and captains, just me
and lieutenants, me andsergeants.
I have two bi-annually meetingswith the detective rank, which
(28:03):
is a rank.
Here we have what's called chatwith the chiefs, where we have
them sometimes in the day, atnight, where officers can come
on a Zoom call with us and justchat about things that they're
thinking about.
We did recruitment, retentionand morale meetings in every
district.
We just finished meetings inevery district to talk about our
(28:23):
five-year strategic plan,specifically the SWOT analysis
that came about from that,things that we identified as key
for us and how we're working onthem right now as immediate
needs before the plan is evenimplemented, and so we try to do
that.
And then we try to also getinformation through our command
(28:45):
staff.
Now we'll admit we have somework to do with that.
We're doing a commander'sretreat in December to talk
specifically about resilientleadership, leadership training,
specifically aboutcommunication.
You know how do we speak withone voice and make sure that
every district we have sixdistricts hear the same message.
(29:07):
So if I pull an officer fromthe street in every district and
put them in my office.
We sit on the couch and talkExcuse me, will they tell me the
same message?
And so there's some work wehave to do on that.
I don't think every policedepartment I've ever been in has
struggled with that.
You know, every policedepartment struggles with
(29:29):
communication from the chiefmessage all the way down to the
line officer and for some reasonit gets filtered out somewhere,
and so we can't accept thatanymore.
We have to ensure that that isimportant, that we understand
that communication feedback.
Steve Morreale (29:47):
So tell us a little bit about the Madison
Police Department in terms ofthe size, the size of the city,
the things that keep you busythe size, the size of the city,
the things that keep you busy.
Shon Barnes (30:05):
Yeah, so Madison is probably one of the greatest
cities in America.
We have about 250,000 people,with the university about
271,000 people.
We are the capital city.
We have two great lakes here,monona and Madonna.
We are consistently ranked byLivability Magazine as the best
place in America to live.
We're also ranked as thefittest city in America hosting
(30:25):
the CrossFit Games.
And this week we have theIronman.
I will not be competing inIronman, we'll be cheering
people on.
I was afraid, doc.
I was like when I moved here Isaid I hope we don't drop the
band number two.
So I started working Understood.
But it's a good city.
It's a very giving city.
(30:45):
A lot of philanthropy is here.
I feel like Madison is a placethat if you moved here and you
had nothing by the end of theday you'd have somewhere to stay
, you'd have food, you'd haveclothing and you wouldn't feel
guilty about it.
And also it's a very educatedcity more law degrees and PhDs
per capita than any other city.
(31:06):
And of course, the universityhas something to do with that.
I have a very educated staff.
I have patrol officers with lawdegrees.
I have patrol officers with lawdegrees, patrol officers with
master's degrees, and so we justtend to attract and collect
people in Madison who are notafraid to ask questions, who are
inquisitive, who are smart andwho value education, which is
(31:29):
one of the things that reallyreally drew me here.
Steve Morreale (31:31):
How many in your department?
Yeah?
Shon Barnes (31:34):
We have about 500 commissioned officers and about
another 200 non-commissionedemployees.
I didn't speak a lot about that, but I just want to make
mention that you know, throughmy leadership style, I do not
ignore our non-commissionedstaff.
I have meetings skip levelmeetings with them as well.
(31:55):
I go and see what's importantto them, I go in their cubicles,
we talk.
They know who I am, I'm visibleto them and I would just
encourage every leader to dothat and don't do it only when
it's contract negotiation time.
You need to do it all the time,because they keep everything
(32:18):
running and they're processingpaperwork and they're reading
cases and they experience traumathrough that and oftentimes no
one ever stops by to check onthem.
I make sure that I do that atall six district substations and
then here where the majority ofour staff is in records.
I went by earlier when theweather changed to being warm
(32:40):
here and was talking to aprocessing clerk.
He was saying how the windows?
He appreciates them, but itgets extremely hot and they
don't have the ability tocontrol the air condition.
You know it seems likesomething small, but that's
(33:08):
important to him.
He has to sit there.
He can't go anywhere else withthe sun beaming down on his neck
, and so we worked to get betterand he really, really
appreciated that A small gesture.
But you know, for leaders andpolice organizations, do not
forget your non-sworn,non-commissioned staff, and you
need to make them as well,because oftentimes your strategy
(33:29):
could mean increased work forthem and they should have a
voice in that, if that's trulythe case.
Steve Morreale (33:45):
Well, I mean, one of the things you're showing
is care and empathy and that'sa pretty important element of
leadership.
So I appreciate you sayingwe're talking to Sean Barnes and
he is sitting in Madison,wisconsin, today, the chief of
police.
He is Dr Sean Barnes also, so Iappreciate what you've been
saying.
So many things have been goingon in policing and there are so
many moving parts and Iunderstand that and how you as a
(34:06):
chief and your colleagues keepup with it is mind-boggling
sometimes to me.
But mental health is a majorissue.
Many of the calls are nowmental health related.
I'd be curious to know howMadison is handling that.
Do you have a co-response?
Do you have a group of peoplewho can help from the outside,
in other words, clinician and,as important, the well-being of
police?
You talked about trauma andthose kinds of things.
(34:27):
Tell us what's going on outthere.
Shon Barnes (34:28):
Sure, the newest thing that we have in our city
is that we have a group calledCARES, which is loosely based on
the CAHOOTS model from Oregonand whatnot.
But even before that, almosteight years ago, our department
established mental healthofficers, and so the Bureau of
Justice Assistance hasdesignated our police department
here in Madison as a learningsite for other police
(34:50):
departments that want to doco-responder models of mental
health.
And so we have a mental healthofficer in every district and we
have three clinicians who workwith us as well, and when those
calls come out, those mentalhealth officers will take some
of those calls.
But, more importantly, they doa lot of follow-up, kind of like
a detective would trying toinvestigate a case to make sure
that the person we dealt withhas the services that he or she
(35:12):
needs in order to improve theirmental wellness.
And so last week we had apolice department here, a major
metropolitan police department,come to visit to learn how to
adapt our model of mental healthofficers.
Now it's important to note thatas we deal with that, we also
have to deal with the mentalhealth of our staff, and so last
year we established mentalwellness days or checkup days,
(35:33):
and so every staff membercommission and non-commission
will get a day to spend an hourwith a clinician unless you have
your own and then they get theday off, and so we call it our
mental wellness days, our mentalwellness checkup, and it's just
an investment that our city ismaking into our police.
As you know, the 21st CenturyReport on Policing speaks
specifically in Pillar 6 aboutofficer safety and wellness, and
(35:57):
under the Obama administrationI had an opportunity to work on
that particular pillar and go toDC and share my thoughts on
officer safety and wellness.
And really it begins withunderstanding how the job
affects us and understandingthat it's not normal or natural
to see, and hear and smell andtouch some of the things that we
do on the job, and then, ifwe're healthy, we can better
(36:18):
serve our community.
And I think we have one of thebest things going when it comes
to the way we treat our officersand understanding that this job
does take a toll on you, and wewant you to be healthy.
Steve Morreale (36:28):
I'm glad to hear that, sean Sean Barnes in
Wisconsin, madison, wisconsin.
I want to talk about a coupleof things before we wind down
and at the end I'd like to talkabout your experience with the
LEADS program for NIJ.
But racial and cultural issuesI don't want to broad brush that
.
I want to dig into that.
How are you addressing that ina major city, in a capital city?
Shon Barnes (36:48):
Well, I think the first thing to realize is that
racial disparities are real.
My dissertation was in racialdisparities, which is a
measurement right.
It doesn't show how people weretreated, but it begins with
understanding how to measure itand acknowledging that.
And Wisconsin is probably oneof the worst states in America
for racial disparity, and thatincludes Madison.
But we have to begin inpolicing to acknowledge that
(37:10):
what people are feeling is realand understanding that police
have not always stood on theside of justice as we define it
today, and understanding thatand part of my understanding was
in 2020, I took an opportunitywith two other police leaders
Obed Magni, who was inSacramento at the time, who I
(37:30):
think you know, and Tariq McGrawall these scholars.
We went to Selma, alabama.
We spent the day at Brown AMEChurch and we learned about
Bloody Sunday, and then wewalked 54 miles from Selma to
Montgomery and that experiencereally was life-changing.
It helped me to understand whatpeople were going through, the
number of people who stopped tocheck on us white, Black,
spanish truckers, policeofficers.
It really showed me thatAmerica is not a divided country
(37:54):
.
I want to say that againAmerica is not a divided country
.
When you see someone walkingdown the road and you don't know
what's going on and you stop tocheck on their well-being.
That's who America really is.
We are, I feel, a caring andunderstanding country, and,
despite what the news media maywant to show us, I have walked
the wall two and a half days andthere was no rhyme or reason to
the people who stopped to giveus water or make us sandwiches
(38:17):
in the middle of a pandemic, andso I've seen the real America,
and so I try to bring thatexperience to my leadership
style and I try to ignore allthe voices out there that say
divide, divide, divide, and Itry to look at how we can bring
people together.
I have tough conversations withemployees.
I have tough conversations withthe community, and I'm
(38:37):
respected for that.
When people say, man, I can'tbelieve the cops did that, I say
, well, what happened?
If you dig deep, you'll seethat there's probably a middle
ground there as to why thatinteraction happened, and I'm
not afraid to do that.
I grew up in a community thathad some issues.
I grew up community housing, ahousing project, whatever you
want to call it and I saw myparents struggle while my father
(38:59):
was establishing his business,while my mother was finishing
school and we struck and thethings that I saw in my
community no one should see.
I saw my first homicide at 12years of age, and so I have an
experience to share with peopleand that helps me to bridge the
gap.
We have a lot of work to dowith the community and both, I
think, with the police, and itbegins with not only having the
(39:20):
conversation when you leave thatconversation what is it that
you're going to do?
I have this saying when I leavecommunity meetings that everyone
will leave with homework.
What I mean by that is we'renot just going to come and
you're going to say do somethingabout traffic, do something
(39:47):
about kids.
Steve Morreale (39:48):
We're going to say what are we going to do
together?
And I think that's how we beganto start bridging some of the
gaps.
When Floyd was killed, whenGeorge Floyd was killed at the
hands of a police officer, thereare so many things that police
could have done for theircommunity to say, look, we don't
agree with that.
I'm not putting words inanybody's mouth.
We don't agree with this.
This is what we do differently.
I can't guarantee it won'thappen here, but here are the
(40:11):
steps that we take to try toavoid that from happening in
Madison or in Salisbury orwherever it is from happening in
Madison or in Salisbury orwherever it is.
Why is there a reluctance inyour mind for some especially
smaller chiefs to stand on thesidelines rather than getting
out there in front?
Shon Barnes (40:24):
of it Because police chiefs are afraid that
maybe it was justified and, tobe honest with you, it doesn't
take much to justify legallysome of the things that we've
seen in the community.
I got to tell you that whenGeorge Floyd happened I will
tell you, I initially didn't seethe video.
It just happened during one ofthose times where I'm working on
budget because we had a fiscalbudget at the time.
(40:45):
You know, I think it happenedin March.
You know you have to get stuff.
I was just busy and I wasn'twatching the news and I had a
sergeant SWAT team guy Somepeople may refer.
He's like my tackleberry rightand I'm dating myself.
But he comes in and this is aguy who is all about kicking in
(41:05):
doors and putting handcuffs onpeople and he's like, hey, major
, did you see this?
And I'm like I don't know whatyou're talking about.
He showed it.
He was shocked and when he wasshocked I was like I better pay
attention to this and it shockedmy conscience.
I think it shocked theconscience of a lot of people
when it happened and I knew thatI had to say something.
So I went to my chief and westarted talking about how do we
(41:26):
message this, and so we settledon social media something in
written form, because it'ssomething about reading rather
than hearing.
Steve Morreale (41:33):
You know, I think it has a longer lasting
effect.
Sometimes, sean right.
Shon Barnes (41:36):
Yeah, I think so, I think so, I think so, and
that's what we settled on.
And then, when the protesthappened in Salisbury, we not
only assisted with trafficwithout having to be told to do
so, and we allowed people totalk and they asked us to kneel
with them.
That's not going to hurt anyone.
We did that, but we also gaveour officers an opportunity.
(41:57):
Did that, but we also gave ourofficers an opportunity.
And so after each protest, theday after each protest, I should
say, we were able to get somereally nice gifts of food.
And so we brought in theofficers before we started the
next day and everyone got anopportunity to decompress and to
talk.
And I'm going to tell you, I sawofficers crying because they
were upset at people notunderstanding how important this
(42:18):
was.
The officers knew we were in adifferent time period.
It felt different than justyour usual everyday hey, someone
got shot by the police.
It felt different, and so wegave everyone an opportunity to
decompress.
But the George Floyd thing itforever changed policing and I
think, unfortunately, in orderto do that, someone had to lose
their life.
Thank you for that.
Steve Morreale (42:39):
So, as we wind down, there is a question that I
want to ask about yourexperience with the LEADS
program, and it is a programthat you can better describe
than I.
That started several years agowhen you were, in essence, one
of the fellows, a practitionerresearcher.
Talk about that and thatexperience that you had and how
it influenced you, sure.
Shon Barnes (42:58):
The National Institute of Justice established
a program.
They are the research arm ofthe Department of Justice and
the program is called LEADS LawEnforcement Advancing Through
Data and Science, and they takemid-level employees who have a
(43:20):
passion for using research tosolve problems in order to
reduce crime and or improvecommunity satisfaction with
police services, and I was apart of the 2016 class, I think.
I don't know, I don't remember,but honestly it changed my life
because it's like you sit in aroom with people who are all
like-minded and we all have thesame experiences.
I want to share some of thoseexperiences.
One we believe that policingcan be changed for the better.
Two, we believe that policingcan be changed for the better by
(43:43):
using evident research and dataand by understanding the
scientific method.
And then, number three, we wereall people who our police
department at one pointconsidered an outcast.
We were those people who wouldvolunteer for special projects,
ask questions about productsbefore we implemented them.
And we were the people who goton everybody's nerves and
(44:03):
commanded, and so we basicallydeveloped a community amongst
ourselves to share ideas andthought.
And you know, some of the besttrainings in my professional
career being able to sit in aroom with Cynthia Lum, being
able to sit in a room with LoriRobinson I absolutely love Lori
Robinson.
I absolutely love Lori Robinson.
She is like an amazing person.
She co-chaired the 21st CenturyTask Force on Policing and when
(44:26):
I see her, I kind of feel likeit's like a second mom to me,
because she's so intelligent,you know, and it just gives us
an opportunity to advance in ourcareer.
Maureen McGough, who was asenior policy advisor Maureen is
just amazing.
And before it slips out of mymind, the 30 by 30 initiative.
I want to talk about that.
And so the 30 by 30 initiativeis a national initiative that's
(44:47):
gotten a lot of support.
Now they're at a conference nowin DC, but the initiative
states that we want to have 30percent of policing as women by
the year 2030, 30 percent, andso across the country, it's
about 12 percent of people inthe country who are police are
female.
In Madison, 28 percent of ourpolice force are women and our
(45:07):
campaign is called.
We Are the 28th and we'reworking to support them.
We're working to make sure thatthey feel supported and that
they understand that they have agreat role to play, and we're
very, very proud of that.
I will tell you that we will bethe first department to reach
30%.
Steve Morreale (45:21):
Well, because you're so close, right, you're
almost at the finish line.
Shon Barnes (45:24):
Hey, it doesn't matter, we're going to be number
one.
You're right, we're close, butI think we're close to the
finish line and when we getthere, we want to be able to
sustain it, not just get thereand say, hey, we're at 30
percent and then five yearslater we're back to 12 percent.
No, we want to sustain that andwe want to be able to see that
diversity in our leadership rank, in our detective rank and in
(45:46):
the rank of officers who aresignificantly contributing to
what we're doing.
So that's one of the thingsthat's come out of leads, as
well as lifelong friendshipswith people and just staying
current on research so I canbetter help my police department
.
Steve Morreale (45:58):
So we're talking to Sean Barnes again.
He's at Madison, wisconsin, asthe chief, dr Barnes, and you
know it's interesting.
We could talk for an awful lotlonger, but you're busy and I'm
busy, and so we've got to cutthis off in a few moments.
But one of the things thatstrikes me is that, first of all
, you have a passion forlearning, a passion for passing
that on.
What troubles me as apracademic which you would be in
(46:19):
that realm is that we callourselves a profession and yet
in many places, all you need isa high school or GED.
And so how do we move forwardto professionalize and increase
the entry level without steppingon people who had been
disenfranchised?
What's your thought about that,sean?
Shon Barnes (46:38):
You know, my thought is I don't know that the
two are mutually exclusive.
I was in the Marine Corps and Iwas in with people who had high
school diplomas, who wereamazing leaders and would have
made amazing police officers.
I think we can create a way totranslate your life experience
and your continuing educationoutside of a degree into
(46:58):
policing, and I think there areother things that make a
particular occupation orprofession Number one what is
the governing body that saysyou're doing things the right
way?
If I'm a dentist, maybe it'sthe American Dental Association.
If I'm a doctor, maybe it's theAmerican Medical Association.
What is the equivalent of thatfor police there?
Intro Outro (47:15):
isn't one.
Shon Barnes (47:16):
And so there's no real organization or institution
that says you apply the righttreatment at the right dosage to
solve this problem.
That's where it has to begin.
If we don't establish that andestablish that quickly, either
through the federal governmentor through PERF or through IACP
or some other group that we allrespect, we can't really call
ourselves a profession If wedon't commit ourselves to
(47:38):
continuing education, and notjust in training.
Can you pull a gun?
Do you know how to use base?
No, are you looking at the mostcurrent research every year
about how to do your job?
That's what makes you aprofession.
And then, most importantly,where's the accountability when
police officers can pull theirweapon, shoot an unarmed person,
resign from their job in lieuof termination and go to another
(48:03):
department and start working,we can't call ourselves a
professional Because I can'tleave a hospital after a
malpractice lawsuit after amalpractice lawsuit and go to
another hospital in Boston andexpect to pick up a scout.
The profession won't allow it.
So we still have some work todo if we truly want to call
ourselves a profession.
I believe we are, but we can'tcall ourselves that until we put
into place the things that arenecessary to be a profession.
Steve Morreale (48:25):
So I wrote three things down.
There are things that kind ofskirt around that you have posts
.
In some states, police officersstand in training.
We have accreditation both atthe state and CALEA, in terms of
accountability.
But what also strikes me isthat there is no although
they're talking about it, thereis no group of people that comes
in and does an inspection ofthe department.
How are we doing, what's goingon, what are the numbers, those
(48:47):
kinds of things.
And we have no national policeuniversity that could create
some national standards.
We want local control right.
So each state does itdifferently, Each state trains
differently.
So we could go on with that fora long, long time.
But let me give you the lastword Again.
We're talking with Sean Barnesas we wind down.
He is the chief of police inMadison, wisconsin.
He is Dr Sean Barnes, with aspecialty in leadership studies
(49:14):
about getting into policing.
Given what's going on and whatthe temperament of many people
is about policing, should theycome in or shouldn't they?
Shon Barnes (49:23):
They should definitely apply.
It has to start there.
You have to fill out anapplication.
What I tell people is, if youthink you might want to do this
job, fill out the applicationand forget about it when they
call you.
Now you can make a decisionabout if you want to move
forward, but if you don't put inthe application and then six
months from now you realize, hey, I think I can do this, you
need to make your bed.
(49:44):
Why is your?
You're going to say who is thisperson telling me how to
operate in my home?
But if I'm a part of your, thenmaybe I have some say in you
making your bed.
That's just an analogy to saychange comes from within.
(50:08):
And if you think things couldbe better and you want to
contribute to that, then join.
Come to the police department,see what we do, do a ride along,
talk to an officer, and whatyou will find out is that 90% of
this job is still relationshipand communication, and I think
it will always be that.
It's one of the most rewardingjobs you will ever have.
It's one of the toughest jobsthat you will ever have.
(50:30):
It will challenge you every day.
There's no monotony here.
Every day, every call will besomething different, and I think
that there are a lot oftalented people out there women,
minorities, people of color whoshould be police officers.
But they have to learn to takethat first step, to get over
your own fear of what yourfriends are going to say, what
your family is going to say.
(50:50):
When you're making good money,that good health insurance and
working for a job and you seethe respect that you get when
you do it right, there's nothingmore rewarding than that, and
so we are having a big push forrecruiting now.
We have a program called theMORE Program Multicultural
Officers Recruitment Effort andso, if you're interested, go to
our website, fill out anapplication we're trying to have
(51:12):
.
I am trying to have the firstminority majority police academy
.
First time.
I want to have more minoritiesin our police academy, a
multicultural candidate thanmajority, and I think we can do
that.
But people have to give us achance.
You can always leave if youdon't want.
Don't have a contract.
We're not your house, but Ithink if you take that first
step, you're going to find thatthis is a rewarding profession,
(51:33):
still a good profession.
There's still people here whowant to do things the right way
and you should come and be apart of that.
Steve Morreale (51:38):
You're a great salesman, sean Barnes, the chief
of police in Madison, wisconsin.
I don't know who are going toshow up in Madison for you, but,
listen, you have been apleasure to talk with and I
would say that one of the thingswe try very hard to do is to
grab hold of some thoughtleaders, and I would say you're
right there at the top, so thankyou so much for being here.
Shon Barnes (51:57):
Thank you, sir, and thank you for having me on.
It was a pleasure to meet youand listen to your podcast.
And for all my law enforcementleaders and friends, please, you
know, listen to the CopDocpodcast.
And for me, you know, being agood leader is about surrounding
yourself with good thoughts,good thought leaders.
And thank you again, doctor,and I can't wait to hear it.
Thanks very much.
Steve Morreale (52:18):
So that's another episode in the can.
This is Steve Morreale fromBoston.
Sean Barnes has been talking tous in Madison, Wisconsin.
We'll be back for anotherepisode.
Thanks for listening.
Intro Outro (52:29):
Thanks for listening to the Cop Doc Podcast
with Dr Steve Morreale.
Steve is a retired lawenforcement practitioner and
manager, turned academic andscholar from Western State
University.
Please tune into the Cop Docpodcast for regular episodes of
interviews with thought leadersin policing.
Welcome to the CopDoc Podcast.
This podcast explores policeleadership issues and innovative
ideas.
The CopDoc shares thoughts andideas as he talks with leaders
in policing communities,academia and other government
agencies.
Steve Morreale (00:29):
And now please join Dr Steve Morreale and
industry thought leaders as theyshare their insights and
experience on the CopDoc podcast.
Well, hello everybody.
This is Steve Morreale.
I'm coming to you from Boston.
This is another episode of theCopDoc podcast.
We're having some technicaldifficulties so I apologize in
advance.
This is being conducted by cellphone.
But I am gratified, and one ofthe reasons I'm pushing through
is because Sean Barnes is a busyguy.
And talking to Chief Sean Barnesfrom the Madison, wisconsin
(00:52):
Police Department Good morning,good morning, sir.
How are you?
I'm fine, thank you.
You look all prettied up inyour white shirt, your many
stars and the Madison policepatch behind you.
I want to thank you for cominghere.
I've been looking forward tohaving a chat with you.
As you know, one of the thingsthat we talk about here is
what's going on in policingtoday.
What about leadership?
Sometimes there is a vacuum inleadership.
I know that you are a servicemember with the Marines.
(01:15):
Thank you for your service.
Also, you unusually have a PhDin leadership studies, which is
amazing.
You've been at three or fourdifferent agencies, so I'd like
you to explain for the audiencewhat your route was from the
Marines into policing and themany jobs that brought you to
Madison.
Shon Barnes (01:30):
Yeah well, first of all, thank you for having me
and giving me an opportunity toshare my thoughts on policing.
I got to tell you that Istarted out my professional
career as a public schoolteacher, so my undergraduate
degree is in history pre-law.
So I was a US history teacher,world civilization teacher at a
public high school in NorthCarolina before changing over
(01:50):
and doing something a little bitsafer and deciding to be a
police officer.
Steve Morreale (01:54):
A little safer, huh, go ahead.
Shon Barnes (01:56):
I've always been someone that really valued
service.
Parents really taught us thatvalue of being on this planet is
what you can do for others.
I have a younger brother.
I'm the oldest of three.
I have a younger brother who'sa police officer now he's a full
resource officer down in NorthCarolina and my sister is a
daycare provider and so we'vealways had that in us, and so
(02:16):
just being able to be a part ofa police department where I
started my career in Greensboro,north Carolina, really shaped
who I am today.
Learning about problem-orientedpolicing from Herman Goldstein,
one of the things that reallydrew me to Madison and in
Greensboro.
Problem-oriented policing wassomething that you had to do.
It was totally infused intoeverything that we did at all
(02:39):
levels.
Whether you were a rookieofficer or whether you were a
captain.
Everyone had to be involved inthis thing that we call the
Sarah model, and so I reallylearned at a very young age in
policing to value evidence-basedpolicing and to value what
works best truly to decreasecrime while at the same time
(03:00):
increasing citizen satisfactionwith police.
Steve Morreale (03:03):
So you started back there in North Carolina and
after a stint with the USMarine Corps and then it looks
like you started to at whatpoint in time did you say I want
to learn more?
I presume, in order for you todo that, you had to have the
mindset of a lifelong learner,and may I say what a crazy bunch
(03:24):
of fools we are to take thestep towards a doctorate, but
it's a hard road, especiallywhen you're working.
I know you've had thatexperience, as I did.
But what made you move in thatdirection, Sean.
Shon Barnes (03:35):
You know, a combination of things, one, my
wife being a PhD as well, twoPhDs in cancer, biology and
toxicology.
Steve Morreale (03:46):
Yeah, that's sort of like ours, huh.
Shon Barnes (03:48):
Not quite.
Steve Morreale (03:50):
Yes, sir.
Shon Barnes (03:51):
Go ahead.
He just really set an examplefor my entire family and I love
being a student, I love being inthe classroom and I worked on a
master's degree at theUniversity of Cincinnati and
worked under Dr Robin Engel anda few other Cullen oh my
goodness, the list goes on andon John Eck, and so, just, you
(04:13):
know, just being around them,you know they kind of made
research and evidence-basedpolicing kind of cool to me and
understanding, hey, you know theway I police, I'm on to
something right and seeing thatthrough research really really
spoke to me.
But I was at the University ofLouisville in 2012, in the
Southern Police Institute, yes,and we had a residency expert
(04:38):
come in and that was Dr TheronBowman, who at the time was the
chief of police in Arlington,texas, who went on to become
city manager, runs a consultinggroup now, and he told us he
says, listen, you know, thefeature of policing is a law
degree or a PhD.
And he says you know, I preferthe PhD because the PhD isn't
about, it's not about having allthe answers, it's about knowing
(05:02):
the right questions to ask andthen applying the scientific
method in order to reach aconclusion.
And when he said that a lightbulb just kind of went off in me
and I just started searchingand doing a little praying and
really asking you know, god, toshow me the right program that
would be a good fit for me.
(05:22):
You know, a lot of people gointo PhD programs and don't
finish because it's more aboutyou know, the letters at the end
rather than the process.
I wanted a program that wouldbe about the process and I found
a program in leadership studiesin Greensboro, where I was
living at the time, and theprogram was really a good fit.
It was tailored to me and Ithought that what's really
(05:43):
missing in policing, if you wantto be a 21st century policing
agency, is leadership, and Iknow you've read the president's
task force on 21st centurypolicing.
But I think a big part of thatthat could have been explored a
little bit more is leadershipand how you can have the best
(06:04):
laid plans or schemes to quoteBurns, mice and men but if you
don't have the leadership,planning, execution, it really
is not going to matter.
And so I wanted to learn how tobe a better leader, because I
felt like that was thetrajectory of my career.
Steve Morreale (06:22):
You know we're talking to Sean Barnes.
He's the chief of police inMadison.
He is Dr Sean Barnes.
Also, we're going to be talkingabout a couple of things.
I do apologize because the theaudio today is not the best.
We're working through cellphones because of some technical
issues on my my end, but I didnot want to let this lie.
But, sean, one of the thingsthat I'm beginning to write a
(06:43):
book on leadership, uh, one ofthe things that I'm beginning to
write a book on leadership, andone of the reasons is I'm
trying to stay away from beingtext and making it more useful
to people in the field.
One of the things that Istarted and I've heard it's not
I don't own it and, by the way,I, like you, don't know
everything.
I'm constantly learning.
I'll learn from you today, butone of the quotes that I start
(07:06):
in my draft is leadership.
It's on you, but it's not aboutyou, and I'd like to get your
reaction to that, because Ipresume there is somebody in
your life that saw value in youand brought you along, and so,
to me, one of the things thatleadership is about is
(07:27):
identifying promising people andhelping them develop and giving
them opportunities to blossom,and I presume that's something
that you do routinely.
That's a guess on my part, butI don't think you could get
where you are without bringingother people along with you.
Tell me what you think aboutthat.
Shon Barnes (07:45):
No, I think that's a great quote, and there's a
quote that I use a lot is thatyou know, good leaders have to
be able to recognize talent inothers, and so that just comes
from my experience, where peoplepull me aside and had me
involved in various projects andI was doing research as a
lieutenant and things of thatnature being able to show your
(08:09):
talent, your skill set and thendeveloping people.
And you're right, leadership iscertainly not about you and
those leaders who may listen tothis.
My question for you is or whatwe sometimes used to call the
leadership test who are youmentoring?
Who are you cultivating?
Your legacy should be thosepeople that you brought up, and
(08:34):
when you look at your resume,when you look at your CV, is it
a list of things that you havedone or is it a list of things
that you have gotten donethrough the talents of others?
And so I always think aboutthat.
I was counseling a friend ofmine recently who's trying to
get promoted and he was tellingme about all the things that he
did as a captain and this isthat.
(08:55):
So that's great, but who arethe people who can say you help
them reach their goals and theirobjectives.
I have a saying when I meetwith my command staff and they
always laugh.
I'm like listen, I know I'myour agent.
Right, I'm your agent.
It's my job to make your dreamscome true, but you got to help
me as well.
They always laugh about that.
(09:17):
But that's really the role ofleadership.
If you do some reading KenBlanchard is one of my favorites
, if you read his books onservant leadership he talks
about that.
He talks about picking thattraditional triangle and
flipping it upside down and juststop sending decision making up
and information down and justflip it and allow people to do
(09:39):
the work, and so I'm a reallybig fan of his and that's
something that really shaped myleadership philosophy.
Steve Morreale (09:45):
I love the term you just said.
I'm your agent.
I'm sure you're not charging10%, but that's a pretty neat
point of view.
I really enjoy that.
So you have moved around andit's so unusual in many cases to
see a police chief that hasmoved around and has seen
different processes.
And I was just writingyesterday that in many cases
(10:07):
your leadership approach is anamalgamation of many different
people that you have come uponand that could be coaches and
teachers and it could be bosses,both good and bad.
But it seems to me that you'rea customization of a bunch of
little things and learning alongthe way as you've moved through
police departments.
We didn't talk about Chicago,and now here you are in Madison.
(10:29):
I want to ask a question.
Let's say Salisbury and Madisonspecifically.
Here you are, the big honcho.
Salisbury you're trying tofigure out how to be a chief
right here.
You've already been a chief,but now you're trying to figure
out how to be a chief in Madison, wisconsin.
You've already been a chief,but now you're trying to figure
out how to be a chief in Madison, wisconsin, somewhere you had
never been Right.
It's a capital city.
It's a.
It's a.
It's a.
It's a university city.
(10:50):
So please tell us what happenedin your first little little bit
when you got there Was most ofit listening, was most of it
trying to figure out andengaging your command staff and
the rest of the people aboutwhere they've been.
I know I've brought, I'vewalked in and say what are you
most proud of?
What have you done?
(11:10):
What kind of obstacles are?
Are there that I can help moveout of the way to get you to be
more productive?
Tell us your approach, sean.
Shon Barnes (11:19):
Yeah, so you know, when I came to Madison this is
the second time I've come toMadison I came here when I was
two years old, my mother,madison, to live with, with her
big brother, my uncle, who was astudent at UW Madison.
She stayed for a little whileand then, of course, went back
to North Carolina when I wasborn and raised.
So this is my second stint, butthe first time I don't remember
(11:41):
at two years old.
But you know this, this answer,you know, maybe a little
shocking to you, but I made alot of mistakes when I first
came here, and one of themistakes that I made was trying
to balance my time.
You know, 2020, 2021 was adifficult year for law
enforcement.
(12:01):
It was unprecedented, as youknow.
Yes, we've caused for defundthe police with, in our city,
180 days of straight protests,and I saw one of the major
issues as bridging the gapbetween the community and the
police officers, and in order todo that, I needed to stop the
protests, and so I spent atremendous amount of time
(12:25):
meeting with protesters in theback of coffee shops, in the
back of people's homes.
I reached out to everyone and Itook a lot of criticism for
policing in general, only to beable to have a conversation and
say will you give us anopportunity?
Give us an opportunity.
And they did that.
And when the verdict was read,there were people who were ready
(12:48):
to protest, no matter what theverdict was, and I was able,
with some community members, toprevent that.
But on the other end, it meantthat I didn't spend as much time
internally with the officers asI should have.
And my predecessor was verywell-liked, he came from within
(13:10):
and he had kind of, like youknow, almost kind of a father
figure approach to leadership,and that's something that I
would never be able to recreate.
But the officers were expectingme to spend a little bit more
time getting to know them than Iactually did, and so, because I
saw the biggest issue aspreventing additional protests,
(13:34):
but they saw the biggest issueas wanting to get to know me,
wanting to know that they'resupported by me, and so I
probably spent, you know, 60% ofmy time with the community, you
know, and then another 20% withelected officials who were
trying to defund us, and then Iprobably spent 20% of my time
(13:54):
internally, and I should nothave done that.
I should have balanced my time alittle bit more, and so I've
had to since things have calmeddown kind of reinvent myself
with the officers.
But that's one thing that Ilearned from my experience as a
teacher.
I had someone say if you have abad day, erase everything on
the board and go home.
(14:15):
When you come home, guess what?
That board is blank and you canput whatever you want on it.
And so I look at that.
I look at things that I've beensuccessful at, things that I
have not been so successful at,as another opportunity to get it
right the next day.
Steve Morreale (14:30):
Well, that's quite an admission and I
appreciate you being so candidbecause, as you as you work,
it's part of it's not your fault.
That was a horrible time thatwe went through and it's it's
not.
It's not completely behind usyet, but I think you know what I
was hearing you say thatexternal relationships and
external communication andbuilding trust was so important
(14:53):
at that, at that juncture, andso talk about relationships,
trust and accountability insideand outside.
Shon Barnes (15:02):
Yeah, absolutely so , I'll talk about um inside.
Yeah, absolutely so, I'll talkabout inside.
So, inside, at this time inpolicing, police officers want
to know that they are supported,but what they have problems
doing is defining what thatlooks like.
Well, I want you to go tobattle for me, I want you to
(15:23):
fight for me.
I said, okay, well, if there'snothing to fight for, then you
don't see me out there fighting.
That doesn't mean that you'renot supported, right?
And so one of the things that Itry to do is ride along.
It's a constant theme of what Ido.
I did a ride along.
I actually went out andpatrolled an entire weekend and
(15:45):
I had the media came out andthey rode with me for one hour,
but then I had the entireweekend to myself and some
officers saw that, but some onlysaw the news clip.
So it's like, well, he's justdoing this for publicity.
That was one hour of 48 hoursof a weekend that.
(16:05):
I spent.
They didn't see the footpatrols on State Street that
Saturday night.
They didn't see the call that Itook at the AC hotel or a hotel
where there was a disturbance,and you know they didn't see all
of that, and so it's reallydifficult sometimes when you're
playing from behind onestablishing relationships.
But when it comes to theexternal, I look at it like this
(16:27):
we have to be vulnerable, wehave to be able to admit where
we've made mistakes but thenshow how we're working to
improve those mistakes, and wecan't pretend that we're perfect
.
I certainly don't do that, andpeople see through that and it
begins with just being a humanbeing.
You know, I always lead with mypersonality.
(16:50):
I do a lot of public speakingaround town and almost every
week I'm speaking to one or twogroups and I always kind of lead
with who I am.
You know, I talk about theexperience with my father.
I talk about my mother cominghere, I talk about my children.
I talk about who I am, becausebefore I'm Chief Barnes I am
Sean.
Right, that's who I am.
(17:10):
I'm a person that was raised,you know, by two loving parents,
two hardworking parents, towtruck driver you won't find a
harder working person than amechanic that owns their own
business, and my mother was anurse, you know, one of the most
noble professions that thereare, and so you know I try to
(17:32):
lead with that.
Then I did get into hey, whatcan we do to build the
relationships you know?
I really think that it's timethat police leaders in America
acknowledge some of the issuesthat people are experiencing.
We have to acknowledge massincarcerations.
In 1974, when I was born, therewere about 600,000 people in
(17:56):
prisons in the US.
Now there are 2.3 millionpeople, and it doesn't just
affect that person, it affectsat least five other people who
love them in some way.
On drugs, these tough on crimethings, and not embracing
(18:20):
restorative justice, notembracing evidence-based
policing, not embracing the factthat it's easier and cheaper,
by the way, to prevent crimethan it is to respond to it has
really hurt us in policing.
And so having a PhD has givenme the opportunity to learn more
about culture, about people,about planning and being able to
(18:42):
bring those things to myleadership style as a chief of
police, and all that isimportant.
If you're going to establishtrust.
You establish trust byvoluntarily giving information
about what's really going on.
You don't establish trust bynot giving information, and so
we're trying to create a policedepartment here in Madison that
is transparent to our community.
We're trying to create a policedepartment that is responsive
(19:05):
to the needs of our community,and I always go back to Bobby
Kennedy.
Every community gets theircriminal it deserves, but they
get the law enforcement thatthey insist on.
And so when people talk to meabout why are we doing things a
certain way, you should have ananswer to that question, and
that answer should be rooted insome type of evidence-based
(19:26):
policing strategy.
Terrific.
Steve Morreale (19:28):
Good to hear and using data and all of that
stuff, and we'll get into thatin a minute.
But you know, one of the thingsI'm hearing and I'm quite
curious because I want to stayon the leadership track for a
moment I'd like you to share, ifyou would.
And, by the way, we're talkingto Sean Barnes.
Dr Sean Barnes, who's the chiefof police in Madison, wisconsin
, originally from North Carolina, and I do apologize, as you're
(19:51):
listening, that the audio is notas good as we would normally
have because we're operating ona cell phone because of
technical difficulties they have.
But, sean, back to you, yourcommand staff meetings.
Talk about how you set those upin the beginning to almost set
expectations.
My sense is you don't know itall, I don't know it all and
(20:14):
that you're only as good as yourpeople.
And if you, if you askquestions I like Mark Watt's
work, leading through questions,leading with questions and I'm
curious to know what a staffmeeting is like now at Madison
as opposed to when you firststarted and how you began to
steer it with your command staffstarted and how you began to
(20:38):
steer it with your command staff.
Shon Barnes (20:39):
Yeah, and so you know, to leaders listening, you
got to understand that everymeeting.
There's three meetings, right.
There's the meeting before themeeting, where you set your
agenda and people talk aboutwhere they are, they align
themselves.
There's the actual meeting andthen, most importantly, there's
a meeting after the meeting,when people get together and go.
What is this guy talking about?
I don't know if I want to dothis, but you have to know that.
So what we do is you know, ifthere's a hot button topic, if
(21:03):
there's a restructuring that wehave going on, or we're looking
at promotions or whatever.
You know, I try to spend timewith key personnel personnel.
We have a Monday meeting whereit's just me and senior command
staff, assistant chiefs and thedirector and we talk about a few
(21:24):
things.
And then, you know, during themanagement team meeting, the
command staff meeting, beforethat, you know, I will let
captains know where I stand on afew issues to see where they
are.
You know, the main thing isdon't surprise me If you know
I'm supporting a particulardirection.
You know, don't surprise mewith.
You know, hey, chief, I don't,I don't understand this.
You have an opportunity to dothat before we get in a public
(21:44):
setting and then we giveeverybody and everyone an
opportunity to talk about it.
Number one you have to makesure that you're following
policy.
That's the first thing.
Number two if there's a unioncontract, you need to make sure
that you don't violate the unioncontract or that you understand
that you will have to have anMOU in order to get this thing
done.
And then, number three, givingthem an opportunity to have
(22:06):
input.
And then, most importantly, howwill this decision affect the
people who who are on thestreets?
How will this affect yournon-commissioned staff?
How will this affect yourofficers who are on the streets?
How will this affect yournon-commissioned staff?
How will this affect yourofficers who are on the beat?
And then that is what shouldguide your decision-making.
Oftentimes, leaders makedecisions that don't affect them
(22:29):
but certainly affect the peopleon the ground, without
considering that, and I try notto do that.
I remember what that was like.
When decisions come down.
It's like, okay, you're goingto do this, you're going to do
that, and then you look and itdoesn't affect them.
That's an easy decision to make, but it should be a hard
decision to make because you'reconsidering them.
And then the meeting after themeeting, let's talk about that
(22:52):
when you get out of that meeting.
You have to know, for thosethat are listening, that they're
going to talk, they're going togo have coffee, they're going
to see each other in the hallway, there's going to be a text,
there will be a meeting afterthe meeting.
What you want is to have arepresentative in that that can
say hey, I understand how youfeel.
(23:12):
Let's at least give it a shot.
Let's at least give it a try.
Let's at least give it a try.
We know the old joke.
You've heard it a thousandtimes.
Two things cops don't like theway things are and change.
So that tends to be the case inevery police department I've
ever been on.
But what helps out tremendouslyis giving them some voice in
your decision making voice inyour decision making.
Steve Morreale (23:39):
Well, so I think , when you're speaking about
that, that sometimes and oftenin our repertoire of trying to
figure out how to make adecision is to understand what
intended consequences might comefrom a change in policy.
But one of the things thatstrikes me as a professor and
teaching strategic planning orpolicy and such is, you know, I
think, my guess again, sean, youwould not survive if you did
(24:01):
not believe that policies arenot etched in stone, that as new
information comes up, that wehave to be able to be nimble and
recognize.
Oops, there is a clause missingabout that.
I think about body worn camsand how that might have come.
Do you have it in Madison BWCs?
Shon Barnes (24:20):
I am trying to get a body-worn pilot.
It's been eight years in themaking.
Steve Morreale (24:25):
I have city council agreeing to allow me to
do a pilot, but I still have alittle ways to go, I understand,
but in terms of policymakingand policy revision, is that a
part of your approach?
Bring forward any problems wehave with a new policy so we can
tweak it to make sure that itdoesn't have unintended
consequences that would hamperthe ability of the police
(24:48):
department and police officersto to follow those policies
policies.
Shon Barnes (24:58):
Yeah, so, first of all, for anyone who's listening,
every policy should have anexpiration date.
That forces leaders to reviewthose policies and make sure
that they are current, up todate and that it's not being
inequitable to anyone who may beviolating that policy.
That's the first thing.
Additionally, I would add thatpolicies are a guide and, just
like the Bible, there's not aday that goes by that you don't
(25:19):
violate something that's in it,and you have to know that as a
leader.
You know, is this a mistake ofthe mind or is this?
A lot of special events here?
A lot of.
We have Ironman here this week,we had CrossFit Games and you
know we have these briefings.
(25:40):
We set out what the policy isfor, everything from traffic
being shut down you name it wordwhen they're leaving briefing.
I say critical thinking is moreimportant than policy.
I want to establish anorganization that understands
(26:01):
that.
Yes, we have a policy, but youare allowed, under my leadership
, to bring your brain to work.
You are allowed to makecritical decisions when you need
to and if you do that.
I think you're going to be okay,Because, again, we can't write
a policy for absolutelyeverything, but some of the
major things that we do, we justrevise our policy around
(26:24):
protests.
I think it's very, veryprogressive.
I think it gives officers a lotof autonomy not to intervene
and to use other mechanisms toprevent people who may be
thinking about disruptingprotests and demonstrations.
And so you know, we're justtrying to improve.
That's one of our core valuescontinuous improvement.
(26:45):
I think we do that probablybetter than any organizations
I've ever been a part of.
Steve Morreale (26:50):
So, as you have evolved as a chief and been a
number of different policedepartments, it seems to me one
of the things we brushed on afew moments ago was the
important of mentoring othersand coaching others.
And so you have new people whoyou've decided to promote never
(27:10):
mind hire, but promote.
And how important areconversations with you, setting
expectations, helping to frametheir thoughts, how important,
as a leader, listening becomesand coaching becomes, and
(27:32):
adopting a more 21st centuryperspective in the way we
interact with others.
What's part of your repertoire?
Shon Barnes (27:41):
Part of my repertoire is meeting with
people and giving people anopportunity to talk.
So I have skip level meetingswith every rank.
I have skip level meetings withjust me and captains, just me
and lieutenants, me andsergeants.
I have two bi-annually meetingswith the detective rank, which
(28:03):
is a rank.
Here we have what's called chatwith the chiefs, where we have
them sometimes in the day, atnight, where officers can come
on a Zoom call with us and justchat about things that they're
thinking about.
We did recruitment, retentionand morale meetings in every
district.
We just finished meetings inevery district to talk about our
(28:23):
five-year strategic plan,specifically the SWOT analysis
that came about from that,things that we identified as key
for us and how we're working onthem right now as immediate
needs before the plan is evenimplemented, and so we try to do
that.
And then we try to also getinformation through our command
(28:45):
staff.
Now we'll admit we have somework to do with that.
We're doing a commander'sretreat in December to talk
specifically about resilientleadership, leadership training,
specifically aboutcommunication.
You know how do we speak withone voice and make sure that
every district we have sixdistricts hear the same message.
(29:07):
So if I pull an officer fromthe street in every district and
put them in my office.
We sit on the couch and talkExcuse me, will they tell me the
same message?
And so there's some work wehave to do on that.
I don't think every policedepartment I've ever been in has
struggled with that.
You know, every policedepartment struggles with
(29:29):
communication from the chiefmessage all the way down to the
line officer and for some reasonit gets filtered out somewhere,
and so we can't accept thatanymore.
We have to ensure that that isimportant, that we understand
that communication feedback.
Steve Morreale (29:47):
So tell us a little bit about the Madison
Police Department in terms ofthe size, the size of the city,
the things that keep you busythe size, the size of the city,
the things that keep you busy.
Shon Barnes (30:05):
Yeah, so Madison is probably one of the greatest
cities in America.
We have about 250,000 people,with the university about
271,000 people.
We are the capital city.
We have two great lakes here,monona and Madonna.
We are consistently ranked byLivability Magazine as the best
place in America to live.
We're also ranked as thefittest city in America hosting
(30:25):
the CrossFit Games.
And this week we have theIronman.
I will not be competing inIronman, we'll be cheering
people on.
I was afraid, doc.
I was like when I moved here Isaid I hope we don't drop the
band number two.
So I started working Understood.
But it's a good city.
It's a very giving city.
(30:45):
A lot of philanthropy is here.
I feel like Madison is a placethat if you moved here and you
had nothing by the end of theday you'd have somewhere to stay
, you'd have food, you'd haveclothing and you wouldn't feel
guilty about it.
And also it's a very educatedcity more law degrees and PhDs
per capita than any other city.
(31:06):
And of course, the universityhas something to do with that.
I have a very educated staff.
I have patrol officers with lawdegrees.
I have patrol officers with lawdegrees, patrol officers with
master's degrees, and so we justtend to attract and collect
people in Madison who are notafraid to ask questions, who are
inquisitive, who are smart andwho value education, which is
(31:29):
one of the things that reallyreally drew me here.
Steve Morreale (31:31):
How many in your department?
Yeah?
Shon Barnes (31:34):
We have about 500 commissioned officers and about
another 200 non-commissionedemployees.
I didn't speak a lot about that, but I just want to make
mention that you know, throughmy leadership style, I do not
ignore our non-commissionedstaff.
I have meetings skip levelmeetings with them as well.
(31:55):
I go and see what's importantto them, I go in their cubicles,
we talk.
They know who I am, I'm visibleto them and I would just
encourage every leader to dothat and don't do it only when
it's contract negotiation time.
You need to do it all the time,because they keep everything
(32:18):
running and they're processingpaperwork and they're reading
cases and they experience traumathrough that and oftentimes no
one ever stops by to check onthem.
I make sure that I do that atall six district substations and
then here where the majority ofour staff is in records.
I went by earlier when theweather changed to being warm
(32:40):
here and was talking to aprocessing clerk.
He was saying how the windows?
He appreciates them, but itgets extremely hot and they
don't have the ability tocontrol the air condition.
You know it seems likesomething small, but that's
(33:08):
important to him.
He has to sit there.
He can't go anywhere else withthe sun beaming down on his neck
, and so we worked to get betterand he really, really
appreciated that A small gesture.
But you know, for leaders andpolice organizations, do not
forget your non-sworn,non-commissioned staff, and you
need to make them as well,because oftentimes your strategy
(33:29):
could mean increased work forthem and they should have a
voice in that, if that's trulythe case.
Steve Morreale (33:45):
Well, I mean, one of the things you're showing
is care and empathy and that'sa pretty important element of
leadership.
So I appreciate you sayingwe're talking to Sean Barnes and
he is sitting in Madison,wisconsin, today, the chief of
police.
He is Dr Sean Barnes also, so Iappreciate what you've been
saying.
So many things have been goingon in policing and there are so
many moving parts and Iunderstand that and how you as a
(34:06):
chief and your colleagues keepup with it is mind-boggling
sometimes to me.
But mental health is a majorissue.
Many of the calls are nowmental health related.
I'd be curious to know howMadison is handling that.
Do you have a co-response?
Do you have a group of peoplewho can help from the outside,
in other words, clinician and,as important, the well-being of
police?
You talked about trauma andthose kinds of things.
(34:27):
Tell us what's going on outthere.
Shon Barnes (34:28):
Sure, the newest thing that we have in our city
is that we have a group calledCARES, which is loosely based on
the CAHOOTS model from Oregonand whatnot.
But even before that, almosteight years ago, our department
established mental healthofficers, and so the Bureau of
Justice Assistance hasdesignated our police department
here in Madison as a learningsite for other police
(34:50):
departments that want to doco-responder models of mental
health.
And so we have a mental healthofficer in every district and we
have three clinicians who workwith us as well, and when those
calls come out, those mentalhealth officers will take some
of those calls.
But, more importantly, they doa lot of follow-up, kind of like
a detective would trying toinvestigate a case to make sure
that the person we dealt withhas the services that he or she
(35:12):
needs in order to improve theirmental wellness.
And so last week we had apolice department here, a major
metropolitan police department,come to visit to learn how to
adapt our model of mental healthofficers.
Now it's important to note thatas we deal with that, we also
have to deal with the mentalhealth of our staff, and so last
year we established mentalwellness days or checkup days,
(35:33):
and so every staff membercommission and non-commission
will get a day to spend an hourwith a clinician unless you have
your own and then they get theday off, and so we call it our
mental wellness days, our mentalwellness checkup, and it's just
an investment that our city ismaking into our police.
As you know, the 21st CenturyReport on Policing speaks
specifically in Pillar 6 aboutofficer safety and wellness, and
(35:57):
under the Obama administrationI had an opportunity to work on
that particular pillar and go toDC and share my thoughts on
officer safety and wellness.
And really it begins withunderstanding how the job
affects us and understandingthat it's not normal or natural
to see, and hear and smell andtouch some of the things that we
do on the job, and then, ifwe're healthy, we can better
(36:18):
serve our community.
And I think we have one of thebest things going when it comes
to the way we treat our officersand understanding that this job
does take a toll on you, and wewant you to be healthy.
Steve Morreale (36:28):
I'm glad to hear that, sean Sean Barnes in
Wisconsin, madison, wisconsin.
I want to talk about a coupleof things before we wind down
and at the end I'd like to talkabout your experience with the
LEADS program for NIJ.
But racial and cultural issuesI don't want to broad brush that
.
I want to dig into that.
How are you addressing that ina major city, in a capital city?
Shon Barnes (36:48):
Well, I think the first thing to realize is that
racial disparities are real.
My dissertation was in racialdisparities, which is a
measurement right.
It doesn't show how people weretreated, but it begins with
understanding how to measure itand acknowledging that.
And Wisconsin is probably oneof the worst states in America
for racial disparity, and thatincludes Madison.
But we have to begin inpolicing to acknowledge that
(37:10):
what people are feeling is realand understanding that police
have not always stood on theside of justice as we define it
today, and understanding thatand part of my understanding was
in 2020, I took an opportunitywith two other police leaders
Obed Magni, who was inSacramento at the time, who I
(37:30):
think you know, and Tariq McGrawall these scholars.
We went to Selma, alabama.
We spent the day at Brown AMEChurch and we learned about
Bloody Sunday, and then wewalked 54 miles from Selma to
Montgomery and that experiencereally was life-changing.
It helped me to understand whatpeople were going through, the
number of people who stopped tocheck on us white, Black,
spanish truckers, policeofficers.
It really showed me thatAmerica is not a divided country
(37:54):
.
I want to say that againAmerica is not a divided country
.
When you see someone walkingdown the road and you don't know
what's going on and you stop tocheck on their well-being.
That's who America really is.
We are, I feel, a caring andunderstanding country, and,
despite what the news media maywant to show us, I have walked
the wall two and a half days andthere was no rhyme or reason to
the people who stopped to giveus water or make us sandwiches
(38:17):
in the middle of a pandemic, andso I've seen the real America,
and so I try to bring thatexperience to my leadership
style and I try to ignore allthe voices out there that say
divide, divide, divide, and Itry to look at how we can bring
people together.
I have tough conversations withemployees.
I have tough conversations withthe community, and I'm
(38:37):
respected for that.
When people say, man, I can'tbelieve the cops did that, I say
, well, what happened?
If you dig deep, you'll seethat there's probably a middle
ground there as to why thatinteraction happened, and I'm
not afraid to do that.
I grew up in a community thathad some issues.
I grew up community housing, ahousing project, whatever you
want to call it and I saw myparents struggle while my father
(38:59):
was establishing his business,while my mother was finishing
school and we struck and thethings that I saw in my
community no one should see.
I saw my first homicide at 12years of age, and so I have an
experience to share with peopleand that helps me to bridge the
gap.
We have a lot of work to dowith the community and both, I
think, with the police, and itbegins with not only having the
(39:20):
conversation when you leave thatconversation what is it that
you're going to do?
I have this saying when I leavecommunity meetings that everyone
will leave with homework.
What I mean by that is we'renot just going to come and
you're going to say do somethingabout traffic, do something
(39:47):
about kids.
Steve Morreale (39:48):
We're going to say what are we going to do
together?
And I think that's how we beganto start bridging some of the
gaps.
When Floyd was killed, whenGeorge Floyd was killed at the
hands of a police officer, thereare so many things that police
could have done for theircommunity to say, look, we don't
agree with that.
I'm not putting words inanybody's mouth.
We don't agree with this.
This is what we do differently.
I can't guarantee it won'thappen here, but here are the
(40:11):
steps that we take to try toavoid that from happening in
Madison or in Salisbury orwherever it is from happening in
Madison or in Salisbury orwherever it is.
Why is there a reluctance inyour mind for some especially
smaller chiefs to stand on thesidelines rather than getting
out there in front?
Shon Barnes (40:24):
of it Because police chiefs are afraid that
maybe it was justified and, tobe honest with you, it doesn't
take much to justify legallysome of the things that we've
seen in the community.
I got to tell you that whenGeorge Floyd happened I will
tell you, I initially didn't seethe video.
It just happened during one ofthose times where I'm working on
budget because we had a fiscalbudget at the time.
(40:45):
You know, I think it happenedin March.
You know you have to get stuff.
I was just busy and I wasn'twatching the news and I had a
sergeant SWAT team guy Somepeople may refer.
He's like my tackleberry rightand I'm dating myself.
But he comes in and this is aguy who is all about kicking in
(41:05):
doors and putting handcuffs onpeople and he's like, hey, major
, did you see this?
And I'm like I don't know whatyou're talking about.
He showed it.
He was shocked and when he wasshocked I was like I better pay
attention to this and it shockedmy conscience.
I think it shocked theconscience of a lot of people
when it happened and I knew thatI had to say something.
So I went to my chief and westarted talking about how do we
(41:26):
message this, and so we settledon social media something in
written form, because it'ssomething about reading rather
than hearing.
Steve Morreale (41:33):
You know, I think it has a longer lasting
effect.
Sometimes, sean right.
Shon Barnes (41:36):
Yeah, I think so, I think so, I think so, and
that's what we settled on.
And then, when the protesthappened in Salisbury, we not
only assisted with trafficwithout having to be told to do
so, and we allowed people totalk and they asked us to kneel
with them.
That's not going to hurt anyone.
We did that, but we also gaveour officers an opportunity.
(41:57):
Did that, but we also gave ourofficers an opportunity.
And so after each protest, theday after each protest, I should
say, we were able to get somereally nice gifts of food.
And so we brought in theofficers before we started the
next day and everyone got anopportunity to decompress and to
talk.
And I'm going to tell you, I sawofficers crying because they
were upset at people notunderstanding how important this
(42:18):
was.
The officers knew we were in adifferent time period.
It felt different than justyour usual everyday hey, someone
got shot by the police.
It felt different, and so wegave everyone an opportunity to
decompress.
But the George Floyd thing itforever changed policing and I
think, unfortunately, in orderto do that, someone had to lose
their life.
Thank you for that.
Steve Morreale (42:39):
So, as we wind down, there is a question that I
want to ask about yourexperience with the LEADS
program, and it is a programthat you can better describe
than I.
That started several years agowhen you were, in essence, one
of the fellows, a practitionerresearcher.
Talk about that and thatexperience that you had and how
it influenced you, sure.
Shon Barnes (42:58):
The National Institute of Justice established
a program.
They are the research arm ofthe Department of Justice and
the program is called LEADS LawEnforcement Advancing Through
Data and Science, and they takemid-level employees who have a
(43:20):
passion for using research tosolve problems in order to
reduce crime and or improvecommunity satisfaction with
police services, and I was apart of the 2016 class, I think.
I don't know, I don't remember,but honestly it changed my life
because it's like you sit in aroom with people who are all
like-minded and we all have thesame experiences.
I want to share some of thoseexperiences.
One we believe that policingcan be changed for the better.
Two, we believe that policingcan be changed for the better by
(43:43):
using evident research and dataand by understanding the
scientific method.
And then, number three, we wereall people who our police
department at one pointconsidered an outcast.
We were those people who wouldvolunteer for special projects,
ask questions about productsbefore we implemented them.
And we were the people who goton everybody's nerves and
(44:03):
commanded, and so we basicallydeveloped a community amongst
ourselves to share ideas andthought.
And you know, some of the besttrainings in my professional
career being able to sit in aroom with Cynthia Lum, being
able to sit in a room with LoriRobinson I absolutely love Lori
Robinson.
I absolutely love Lori Robinson.
She is like an amazing person.
She co-chaired the 21st CenturyTask Force on Policing and when
(44:26):
I see her, I kind of feel likeit's like a second mom to me,
because she's so intelligent,you know, and it just gives us
an opportunity to advance in ourcareer.
Maureen McGough, who was asenior policy advisor Maureen is
just amazing.
And before it slips out of mymind, the 30 by 30 initiative.
I want to talk about that.
And so the 30 by 30 initiativeis a national initiative that's
(44:47):
gotten a lot of support.
Now they're at a conference nowin DC, but the initiative
states that we want to have 30percent of policing as women by
the year 2030, 30 percent, andso across the country, it's
about 12 percent of people inthe country who are police are
female.
In Madison, 28 percent of ourpolice force are women and our
(45:07):
campaign is called.
We Are the 28th and we'reworking to support them.
We're working to make sure thatthey feel supported and that
they understand that they have agreat role to play, and we're
very, very proud of that.
I will tell you that we will bethe first department to reach
30%.
Steve Morreale (45:21):
Well, because you're so close, right, you're
almost at the finish line.
Shon Barnes (45:24):
Hey, it doesn't matter, we're going to be number
one.
You're right, we're close, butI think we're close to the
finish line and when we getthere, we want to be able to
sustain it, not just get thereand say, hey, we're at 30
percent and then five yearslater we're back to 12 percent.
No, we want to sustain that andwe want to be able to see that
diversity in our leadership rank, in our detective rank and in
(45:46):
the rank of officers who aresignificantly contributing to
what we're doing.
So that's one of the thingsthat's come out of leads, as
well as lifelong friendshipswith people and just staying
current on research so I canbetter help my police department
.
Steve Morreale (45:58):
So we're talking to Sean Barnes again.
He's at Madison, wisconsin, asthe chief, dr Barnes, and you
know it's interesting.
We could talk for an awful lotlonger, but you're busy and I'm
busy, and so we've got to cutthis off in a few moments.
But one of the things thatstrikes me is that, first of all
, you have a passion forlearning, a passion for passing
that on.
What troubles me as apracademic which you would be in
(46:19):
that realm is that we callourselves a profession and yet
in many places, all you need isa high school or GED.
And so how do we move forwardto professionalize and increase
the entry level without steppingon people who had been
disenfranchised?
What's your thought about that,sean?
Shon Barnes (46:38):
You know, my thought is I don't know that the
two are mutually exclusive.
I was in the Marine Corps and Iwas in with people who had high
school diplomas, who wereamazing leaders and would have
made amazing police officers.
I think we can create a way totranslate your life experience
and your continuing educationoutside of a degree into
(46:58):
policing, and I think there areother things that make a
particular occupation orprofession Number one what is
the governing body that saysyou're doing things the right
way?
If I'm a dentist, maybe it'sthe American Dental Association.
If I'm a doctor, maybe it's theAmerican Medical Association.
What is the equivalent of thatfor police there?
Intro Outro (47:15):
isn't one.
Shon Barnes (47:16):
And so there's no real organization or institution
that says you apply the righttreatment at the right dosage to
solve this problem.
That's where it has to begin.
If we don't establish that andestablish that quickly, either
through the federal governmentor through PERF or through IACP
or some other group that we allrespect, we can't really call
ourselves a profession If wedon't commit ourselves to
(47:38):
continuing education, and notjust in training.
Can you pull a gun?
Do you know how to use base?
No, are you looking at the mostcurrent research every year
about how to do your job?
That's what makes you aprofession.
And then, most importantly,where's the accountability when
police officers can pull theirweapon, shoot an unarmed person,
resign from their job in lieuof termination and go to another
(48:03):
department and start working,we can't call ourselves a
professional Because I can'tleave a hospital after a
malpractice lawsuit after amalpractice lawsuit and go to
another hospital in Boston andexpect to pick up a scout.
The profession won't allow it.
So we still have some work todo if we truly want to call
ourselves a profession.
I believe we are, but we can'tcall ourselves that until we put
into place the things that arenecessary to be a profession.
Steve Morreale (48:25):
So I wrote three things down.
There are things that kind ofskirt around that you have posts
.
In some states, police officersstand in training.
We have accreditation both atthe state and CALEA, in terms of
accountability.
But what also strikes me isthat there is no although
they're talking about it, thereis no group of people that comes
in and does an inspection ofthe department.
How are we doing, what's goingon, what are the numbers, those
(48:47):
kinds of things.
And we have no national policeuniversity that could create
some national standards.
We want local control right.
So each state does itdifferently, Each state trains
differently.
So we could go on with that fora long, long time.
But let me give you the lastword Again.
We're talking with Sean Barnesas we wind down.
He is the chief of police inMadison, wisconsin.
He is Dr Sean Barnes, with aspecialty in leadership studies
(49:14):
about getting into policing.
Given what's going on and whatthe temperament of many people
is about policing, should theycome in or shouldn't they?
Shon Barnes (49:23):
They should definitely apply.
It has to start there.
You have to fill out anapplication.
What I tell people is, if youthink you might want to do this
job, fill out the applicationand forget about it when they
call you.
Now you can make a decisionabout if you want to move
forward, but if you don't put inthe application and then six
months from now you realize, hey, I think I can do this, you
need to make your bed.
(49:44):
Why is your?
You're going to say who is thisperson telling me how to
operate in my home?
But if I'm a part of your, thenmaybe I have some say in you
making your bed.
That's just an analogy to saychange comes from within.
(50:08):
And if you think things couldbe better and you want to
contribute to that, then join.
Come to the police department,see what we do, do a ride along,
talk to an officer, and whatyou will find out is that 90% of
this job is still relationshipand communication, and I think
it will always be that.
It's one of the most rewardingjobs you will ever have.
It's one of the toughest jobsthat you will ever have.
(50:30):
It will challenge you every day.
There's no monotony here.
Every day, every call will besomething different, and I think
that there are a lot oftalented people out there women,
minorities, people of color whoshould be police officers.
But they have to learn to takethat first step, to get over
your own fear of what yourfriends are going to say, what
your family is going to say.
(50:50):
When you're making good money,that good health insurance and
working for a job and you seethe respect that you get when
you do it right, there's nothingmore rewarding than that, and
so we are having a big push forrecruiting now.
We have a program called theMORE Program Multicultural
Officers Recruitment Effort andso, if you're interested, go to
our website, fill out anapplication we're trying to have
(51:12):
.
I am trying to have the firstminority majority police academy
.
First time.
I want to have more minoritiesin our police academy, a
multicultural candidate thanmajority, and I think we can do
that.
But people have to give us achance.
You can always leave if youdon't want.
Don't have a contract.
We're not your house, but Ithink if you take that first
step, you're going to find thatthis is a rewarding profession,
(51:33):
still a good profession.
There's still people here whowant to do things the right way
and you should come and be apart of that.
Steve Morreale (51:38):
You're a great salesman, sean Barnes, the chief
of police in Madison, wisconsin.
I don't know who are going toshow up in Madison for you, but,
listen, you have been apleasure to talk with and I
would say that one of the thingswe try very hard to do is to
grab hold of some thoughtleaders, and I would say you're
right there at the top, so thankyou so much for being here.
Shon Barnes (51:57):
Thank you, sir, and thank you for having me on.
It was a pleasure to meet youand listen to your podcast.
And for all my law enforcementleaders and friends, please, you
know, listen to the CopDocpodcast.
And for me, you know, being agood leader is about surrounding
yourself with good thoughts,good thought leaders.
And thank you again, doctor,and I can't wait to hear it.
Thanks very much.
Steve Morreale (52:18):
So that's another episode in the can.
This is Steve Morreale fromBoston.
Sean Barnes has been talking tous in Madison, Wisconsin.
We'll be back for anotherepisode.
Thanks for listening.
Intro Outro (52:29):
Thanks for listening to the Cop Doc Podcast
with Dr Steve Morreale.
Steve is a retired lawenforcement practitioner and
manager, turned academic andscholar from Western State
University.
Please tune into the Cop Docpodcast for regular episodes of
interviews with thought leadersin policing.
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