From the Bronx to the Battlefield: Leadership Lessons with MG (ret) Dr. John Hussey - U.S. Army Military Police Corps - The CopDoc Podcast: Aiming for Excellence in Leadership

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Intro - Outro (00:02):
Welcome to The CopDoc Podcast.
This podcast explores policeleadership issues and innovative
ideas.
The CopDoc shares thoughts andideas as he talks with leaders
in policing communities,academia and other government
agencies.
And now please join Dr SteveMorreale and industry thought

(00:25):
leaders as they share theirinsights and experience on The
CopDoc podcast.

Steve Morreale (00:32):
Hey everybody, Steve Morreale coming to you
from Boston once again, and webegin another episode of the
CopDoc podcast.
We are approaching 150 episodes.
It's being listened to in 86countries, 3,000 cities and
towns it boggles my mind.
And today I'm headed to SouthCarolina to a colleague, the
retired Major General JohnHussey, who is a PhD.

(00:54):
So he's Dr Hussey, now teachingpart-time down at Citadel and
has actually written a book thatI have with me, but
unfortunately it's in anotherplace.
It's called Inside the Wire,about his experiences as a
commander of the military policecorps, of which I was a member
many, many years ago.
John hello Good morning Steve.

John Hussey (01:12):
How are you Thanks for having me aboard.

I appreciate it.
I do too.
I'm so glad we connected andwe've been in touch.
Liberty University, thecommand college, fairly soon
looking forward to bringing youdown to Liberty University.
But, John, let's talk aboutyour history.
It sounds like you're an IrishAmerican from South Boston, am I
right?

Actually, I'm an Irish American from the Bronx.

I know, I know, I know.

When I first met my brother-in-law he called me a
bick.
He thought they were extinctlike the dinosaurs.
Bronx Irish Catholic.
So grew up in the Bronx in anice Irish neighborhood, was an
altar boy, all the things youknow.
Went to Catholic high school,learned a lot, I tell you as I
go along, though people alwaysask me to describe myself.
So let me start out by sayingthis you know, typical Bronx kid

(01:55):
, mischievous, nothing wrong,but just a mischievous kid.
Liked to crack jokes, drinkbeer, play football and crack
jokes.
And that's what I was doingthrough high school, probably
graduated at the bottom of myclass.
My old man died when I was 16and I was kind of lost, and you
know you can get lost to thestreets of the Bronx.
And I had some very goodmentorship, and the first being
a New York City retired cop atMount St Michael that took me

(02:18):
under his wing, naturally a bigIrish family.
But the one thing that I thinkthat I'm more fortunate than
anything else and if I can everstress to anybody, it's just
pure mentorship I could havebeen lost to those streets.
Some people thought I may windup on the other side of the law,
but through proper mentorshipand guidance and my willingness
to listen, I turned out prettygood.
So that's the number one lessonthat I have in my life and I

(02:40):
try to pass on and always giveback to young kids looking for
that mentorship.

So let's talk a little bit about that.
But as you say it, I canself-face and say I was probably
in the same damn boat.
People always told me Steve,you don't apply yourself, you're
a smart kid, you're notapplying yourself.
And I didn't do so hot in highschool.
In fact, what I tell studentsin a capstone is that I have,
like yourself, sufferedrejection and failure and
mistakes, and it's the way youhandle those things, the way you

(03:05):
can bounce back from them.
I think certainly the militaryhelped me grow up, as it
probably did you.
But it strikes me too that Inever took the SAT, and if you
told me back in the 70s that Iwould be a professor with a
doctorate, I would have saidyou're absolutely delusional,
and you may feel the same way,john.

I just said it to my wife last night.
I'm laughing because I justsaid it to her.

Yeah.

Who'd have thunk it?
Listen, I got to tell you.
I'll never forget it.
I was sitting in an Englishclass and I'm teaching at the
Citadel now, as you noted, andsometimes I call on these
students and it's like my God,this kid's off in la-'s.
Okay.
He said, basically, go back tosleep, but for summer school,
get yourself a seat right hereby the window, because the

(03:47):
breeze flows in nice.
He made me feel so low thatI've said it numerous times and
I went back.
I got five master's degrees anda PhD and it's like here,
brother Cowie, look see, youknow what sometimes and we don't
do this anymore becauseeveryone's being shamed, right,
fat shaming or this shaming orthat.
But you know something?
I'm not saying we should do it,but as a principle, sometimes

(04:08):
it lights a fire undersomebody's backside, right.
And so we grew up in adifferent generation where the
football coaches literally grabyou by the face mask and rip you
.
I mean, I was nine, 10 yearsold and anyone from my
neighborhood is listening wouldknow we had a football coach
today.
The guy'd probably be in stateprison, but he raised champions
and you know, he held youaccountable and he booted you in
the backside.

(04:29):
Now I'm not condoning that, I'mnot saying we should do that,
but we shouldn't rub everybody'sbelly either and everybody gets
a trophy, because I don't knowif that's being productive
either.

No, I think so.
That's a great conversation tohave that.
Obviously, in the military Igrew up you did too.
I had my share of ridicule andI was a little bit chunky and I
didn't get dessert.
I was doing some exerciseswhile everybody was having
dessert, but it made me strongerand I think that's exactly
right.
I think that to be in policingfor sure is absolutely a

(04:58):
requirement, that you have tounderstand the difference
between right and wrong and thatyou're not always going to get
your own way, which isunfortunate, because it seems to
be, but sometimes I'm accusedof being too direct.
You and I had a conversationabout that that there's time to
lead, there's time to bedemocratic and there's time to
say go and get this done, and wejust have to know when that
time is.

(05:18):
So let's go back to how youleft New York, ended up in the
Army, were in the courts systemas an administrator, not as
somebody behind bars and thenended up a rising star in the
military police corps.
Talk about that.
How did that start?

So again through mentorship, right.
So my goal going to college.
But I mentioned in the book youtalk about SATs.
I took the SATs and I didembarrassingly low.
I was terrible at standardizedtests.
To this day I'm probably notthat good, but anyway I went to
Iona College and I begged my wayand I said to the gentleman I
said, just give me one shot, noharm, no foul.
I was 17 years old and I saidif I don't do well, I'll leave.

(05:52):
You won't even have to tell me.
Just you'll say John, we had adeal and people, it's because I
had a goal.
If you're just wanderingaimlessly through a program to
anything else and you're justtaking up space, you're not
going to do as well.
But I knew at that point Iwanted to be a Marine pilot.
So I knew the demand was high,I needed high grades.

(06:15):
So I was working towards that.

And I excelled.

Problem was in my senior year I had astigmatism in
my left eye no-transcript togrow up and I went to boot camp

(06:52):
and it was a hard experience.
I tell my wife to this day thebest day of my life was our
wedding.
She knows that me a taste.
So I come back, didn't go intothe Marines full time but I had
passed the New York State CourtOfficer's test and there I met a

(07:13):
mentor, sergeant Major JimmySiak.
I mentioned him in the book.
As a matter of fact, I spoke tohim a few weeks ago and he told
me about this program OCSOfficer Candidate School in the
New York Guard switch over.
So you know, I listened, Ifollowed it, I wanted to be an
officer.

Wait a minute, john.
Did a Marine become an Armyofficer?
Yeah, oh my goodness, becauseit was an opportunity.
What a step up, I know, I know.

But you know what?
What a step up.
The culture never left me.
The culture never left me.
Marines are and again, I'm notknocking anybody, it was a
different avenue for me.
But I said I don't want to stayenlisted, I want to become an
officer.
And like most people you talkto any general I've ever heard
right talks about ROTC at WestPoint.
I'm going to get in, I'm goingto do my time and then I'm

(07:53):
getting out.
And I've heard that so manytimes.
I've also heard on the otherend from people like you.
I should have stayed in.
I should have stayed in, youknow so.
But for me I stayed in and theopportunities came.
And what I mean by that is theArmy had an old saying be all
that you can be.
And what that meant to me wasthe more you put into an
organization, the more you putinto yourself.
And that's any profession Firedepartment, nursing, doctor,

(08:13):
right, academia the more you putinto something, the more you're
going to get out of it.
So I continued to put in andstudy and go to the schools and
stay in good physical shape.
And stay in good physical shape.
I did deployments.
My first deployment I mentionedin the book and it's kind of
interesting.
When I graduated OCS OfficerCandidate School, I didn't take
my commission immediately.
I did what was known as a hippocket, and the reason I did
that was they would pay for anenlisted person to have their

(08:34):
master's degree.
So I was getting over $15,000in aid to pick up an MBA.
But if I converted to alieutenant lieutenant the
payment would have stopped.
So I said put off.
I wasn't an American that neededinstant gratification, I had a
long-term plan.
So I put off the commission fora year or two and then I got my
MBA.
But when I went back to revertto the commission, I had
suffered a melanoma cancer andthey weren't going to take me in

(08:55):
.
So I volunteered for DesertStorm and I kind of had them in
a short spot there.
How can you send me to DesertStorm, to war, but you can't
commission me, right?
I mean, that's not going tolook too good on 60 Minutes.
So anyway, I got commissionedin Saudi Arabia during Operation
Desert Storm while we weredoing POW operations, and then
the rest is history, so wait aminute, john.

So while you were in Saudi, you were enlisted
and then were commissioned.
I see, wow.

Very interesting, because here I was as an E4,
right, and I'm putting up wireand I get called into my
commander's heart at Good Fridayon 1991.
I'll never forget it because Isaid uh-oh, what did I do?
Now, you know, nobody has an E4.
You don't want to get calledinto a commander's.
And he pinned me and nobodybelieved it.

My friends saw me and they said hey, you got
the wrong stuff on kid.
You can't fake it.

You're impersonating an officer.
I said no.
And the next day I got in, Iactually got in the front and
some staff sergeant threw me outand told me to get in the back.
You don't belong in the front,kid.
The lieutenant said no, no,he's a lieutenant, push him in.
It was kind of bizarre, but Itell you, the best leadership

(10:00):
lesson, steve, that I've everlearned was learning from DEA,
but it's just watching badleadership and taking notes and
then just trying to go back andusing common sense and not doing
those mistakes.
So that's probably been thebest education I've gotten to
emulate those individuals thatyou want to be like and what was
positive about them, and thenlook at what bad leadership is

(10:20):
and make sure you don't makethose same mistakes.

You know it's interesting with everything we
do.
I see myself as a student ofleadership.
I've been playing with it sinceprobably 30 years.
Dissertation was involved inleadership and policing.
I always say that, exactly whatyou just said, john, and, by
the way, we're talking toretired Major General John
Hussey, dr Hussey from SouthCarolina and it strikes me that,
no matter what theories are outthere, you really should be

(10:46):
customized with a little bit ofeverything, a lot of what you
want to emulate from those goodleaders, and then customize it
to yourself so you can begenuine and authentic and avoid
everything that was done to you,so you don't do it to others,
including micromanaging.
Fair statement.

Very fair statement and I think, oh my God
, as we go on in the book, right, that was the best lesson.
So I got activated, or my unitgot activated, to do the Abu
Ghraib mission.
And for those that may not beaware, the Abu Ghraib was the
big prison scandal.
It went all the way up to thepresident.
It was an internationalembarrassment.
Secretary of Defense Rumsfeldwas ready to retire and the unit

(11:22):
that did that.
In 2003,.
There was another unit on theground and, as a matter of fact,
the gentleman that was runningthat unit was a lieutenant
colonel.
He was also a law enforcementofficer, craig Essek.
He was a sergeant outside ofthe great city of Chicago.
The man was absolutelyspectacular, did a fantastic job
.
But we were the next unit torotate in right after the
scandal.
And I'll tell you what I thoughtfor sure that you know.

(11:43):
I thought for sure that youknow I'd be filled with like the
all-star team.
They go all over the countryand they find the best
individuals and I always usethat.
And I said how many I talked toclasses in the military I go.
How many of you think I got theall-star team to go to Iraq and
I go?
You're damn right I did.
It's like I got had everybody,everybody and his mother,

(12:05):
sticking their finger in my pietelling me how to do things,
interfering.
And there was a great articleand I mentioned it in the book
written by a West Pointer.
He's an attorney, a MajorGeneral, jeff Jacobs, and he
spoke about the fact that theactive duty has one thing in
mind when you go missionaccomplishment period period,
that's it the Reserve andNational Guard have.
You know they want to get themission done, but they're
worried about creature comforts.

(12:26):
Hey, did the soldiers get outbowling tonight?
Did you cut enough time in theschedule?
Did they get to go to BurgerKing on Sunday?
And I get all that.
But you know what, sometimestraining takes priority and if
we don't get this right, thosethat don't train hard could come
home in a casket.
And so I had more peopleinterfering.
And then when I got overseas andI came under the 18th MP
Brigade that has a lot ofhistory back from Vietnam with

(12:47):
their MPs, military police didan absolutely fabulous job
during the Tet Offensive inSaigon.
A lot of Valor Awards given outthere and I had a Major General
Brandon Berger, colonel Brownand a CSM Shelley I always speak
about and they let me run myunit period.
You know I was the supportedcommander and whatever I asked
for they just stayed out of myhand and it was so good.

(13:07):
My command sergeant major was asenior enlisted individual that
an officer gets at battalionlevel and if a commander's smart
he'll listen to the commandsergeant major.
He's your battle buddy.
He's been around a long timeprobably 20, 25 years military
experience, a lot of schoolingand they're very smart.
But my CSM I was fortunate was aNew York City police sergeant
that came up through the ranks,worked narcotics and I trusted

(13:28):
him like a brother, just solidadvice and we just wanted to
make it through without gettingrelieved.
I think that was one of thethings that we didn't want and
we knew we were working for aboss.
We were under the microscopeand again they let us run our
unit.
And when I finished I learnedthat and it's the one thing I
applied when I was finishing upas a two-star, I had brigade
commanders these are 4,500persons, that's right,

(13:50):
4,500-person brigades run bycolonels and each of them
thanked me for just letting themrun the brigade and my feeling
was if you can't run yourbrigade in the United States
during peacetime.
What chance do you have to runyour brigade during combat?
So I'm not going to be there tohold your hand, I've got to let
you run it now.
And so I learned that, and it'sthe one lesson I've tried to

(14:11):
pass on.
But, my God, even to the day Igot out as a two-star, I still
had people poking into mycommand and getting involved
where they had no place to be.

So I'm writing a couple of things that I don't
want it to pass by.
It's very, very, veryinteresting.
You say what you say and whenI'm facilitating training for
sergeants or mid-managers orexecutives, I'm always asking
actually, take the time, if youcan envision this, to draw a
field.
And it is a field.
I ask how many have beencoaches before?
Because in a lot of ways, thehigher up you get, the more of a

(14:40):
coach.
The role of the coach you'replaying.
Is that right?
I agree, you're patting peopleon the back.
Go and do it, you can do it.
Let's go try somethingdifferent.
And then I stay out of your way.
Now go perform exactly what youjust said.
We don't get all-star teams.
So what I do is I put this onchart paper, I put 11 people on
a field and I'll say okay,you've got a group of 18 players
.
Tell me if you're going to belucky enough as a coach to have

(15:03):
an all-star team.
And everybody says exactly whatyou say.
I don't.
All right, Tell me how many Aplayers you might have, Tell me
how many B players you thinkyou'll have, and tell me how
many C players you have.
And the fact of the matter isthat's what happens in real life
.
We have A players, we have awhole bunch of B players and
we've got a couple of C players.
And it's our chore and this iswhat I'm going to say as a
leader it's your chore to dealwith, you say, the land of the

(15:25):
misfit, but people of differentreadiness and willingness to try
to move them in the directionof the mission right and get
something out of everyone, inthe hopes that an A player
brings B players up to a higherstandard.
And some of your B playersbring a few of the C players up.
To be productive.
If you understand what I'msaying, I see you writing oh, I
fully do.
And to be productive, if youunderstand what I'm saying, I

(15:45):
see you writing oh, I fully do.
And I think that's a greatanalogy.
Well, to be productive.
So what I'll say is when you'replaying a soccer game and
you've got four A players, doyou put them on the field at the
same time?
And the answer should be no.
You need fresh legs, right, youhave to pair them with B
players.
So go ahead and tell me whatyou think about that, oh right.

So let's start off and I want to come back how I
lined up Abu Ghraib.
But this is good.
Now the one thing you have tounderstand, I agree, everything
right.
The first thing you have to doas a leader right, I think is
you have to put out your vision.
And I think, as leaders, wedon't do that because you know,
let's say, I'm coaching thePittsburgh Steelers or whatever.
I'm the offensive coordinator,everybody knows my number one
goal is to get more points right.

(16:21):
That's the mission.
So what's my vision as acommander, be it the DEA, the
New York State Court system, sothat A player, b player, c
player, everybody knows wherewe're going.
What's my short-term vision,long-term vision and we don't
have to get too deep into that,but they should have an idea of
the mission statement, why theorganization exists and what the
leadership is looking for.
Right and looking for right.

(16:49):
And so the other problem youwant to see.
But as a leader, you got tounderstand you may have the F
players, I mean total failures,that may be the informal chain
of command trying to bring theorganization down for whatever
reason, or the people that youreally got to keep an eye on.
They're the cancers.
If you let them, they willdisintegrate, right, they will
bring others down, but they cancause problems and this is what
we saw, for example, at AbuGhraib, right, people that can't
be left on their own and theyneed to be watched.
Now, as a leader, you don'thave to micromanage, but they
need to know that you're outthere, that you're not sitting

(17:11):
behind your desk eight hours aday.
I've not been a police sergeantor lieutenant, but I'll tell
you anybody that knows me knowsI would I'd be out in their car.
They never know when I'm coming.
It could be three in themorning.
I'll stop by, I'll get out ofthe car, I'll walk hey, where's
McGillicuddy?
How come he's not on post?
And I'll bring him up on theradio and so I did this in the
courts.
Everybody knew and I just gavea lecture to leadership in the

(17:31):
courts.
Everyone knew.
At 930 I did my walkabout.
Everyone knew.
I walked into every courtroom.
I looked to make sure aircondition was working, heat was
working.
I walked the stairs to makesure graffiti wasn't there.
I actually used the publicrestroom to make sure toilets

(17:52):
were fresh and all those littlethings right.
How was the flag outside thecourthouse Was?

it, paying attention to detail.

Detail, right.
And so also it gave lawyersaccess to me.
I wasn't the hidden wizardbehind the and I'm using a
Wizard of Oz parody here, right,my favorite show yeah, behind
the curtain that nobody hadaccess to.
So if lawyers wanted to come upand say, john, you know, I've
been trying to get one of yourclerks to call me back for a
couple of weeks.
John, really appreciate yourhelp on this one.
It gave them the ability totalk to me, and I think that's

(18:18):
what's missing in leadership.
Just, I had a sense Now.
Just I had a sense Now.
You can't be Well, that's theold management, by walking
around and being available andaccessible, it's true, but I
think with computers today andthis email, we've gotten away
from that.
It's even when I get peoplecounseled by email.
Hey, frankie, I need you to dobetter on this, or, susan,
you're coming in.
No, bring him into the officeand sit down Face to face.

(18:39):
You don't need to put everythingin writing because, who knows,
maybe Susan's husband walked outor has stage three cancer and
she doesn't want to put it inwriting, but if you bring her in
she may burst into tears.
And now you're in that humantouch and you're getting the
human feeling to say, okay,because there's so much you can
get by looking somebody in theeye that you don't get through
email, you can see the shakingor the emotion and if you're a

(18:59):
good leader and they trust yousay listen, I know something's
wrong.
Please trust me, bring it outand let me help you.
What can I do to help you?
And again, there's the screwups, right, that doesn't matter,
it's every time they've got anexcuse or reason.
Often, unfortunately, intoday's society, it's ideology.
Oh, you're picking on mebecause I got orange hair and
you can substitute orange hairfor any race, creed or color.
And you're going to deal withthat as a leader.

(19:19):
And you have to be ready, right, because they're going to try
to deflect with that.
And so, as a leader, what I didand I noted in the book is one
standard, one standard theorganizational standard.
So there was a lot of talk inthe military.
After people say the militarywent woke, and I'm not getting
too deep into that here.
That's not the purpose.
Minority soldiers were notfacing the same under UCMJ as

(19:40):
Caucasians, and this was 20years before this, but I was
very cognizant of that.
So if I caught a soldier, forexample, it was reported to me
they were sleeping on duty.
Every soldier, regardless of theunit, regardless of time, in
service color, you got the samepunishment.
And I had a CSM that wouldliterally take his knife and cut
your rank off and send you outso everybody could see immediate
justice.
Right, it wasn't long-termjustice like we do with death

(20:01):
penalty in the US.
Right, boom came out.
He went in as an E4, he'scoming out as an E3.
But I never got a complaintsaying he's treating, you know,
whites different than blacks.
And the best compliment I got Inoted in the book was from a
New York City police detectiveand he was Hispanic.
He said sir, I just got to sayone thing you were tough but you
were fair and as a leader,that's the best compliment you

(20:21):
can receive that you treatedeverybody the same.
First of all, when you talk,about vision.

I talk about expectations and accountability,
and we're dancing around all ofthose.
That's exactly it.
In other words, here are myexpectations, and what troubles
me is that some people acceptthat responsibility to set
expectations and never to saythat again.
I say it can never be one anddone.
You always have to say theseare the expectations.
The boss just came at me and weneed to make some modifications

(20:46):
.
Here's why and here's wherewe're going, need your help.
I have the benefit of watchingyou on video.
I see you shaking your head.
How do you react to that, john?

Hussey, these aren't written in stone, right?
They're just what we like tocall guidance, no-transcript,

(21:31):
time and a place.
And so it's funny because Iwant to go back to two things
time and a place.
I'll never forget I was working.
My operations officer was aretired Greenwich police deputy
chief great guy, fabulous, andhe's actually a chief of police
at a college up in Connecticut.
And he said to me hey, sir,you've given some guidance and I
don't really understand it andI exaggerated.
But then I won't use any of theprofanity language I put in.
But I said, bob, I said here'smy commander's intent.
No-transcript to start.

(22:06):
He goes okay, okay, I got itnow.
I got it now.
But you have to be clear in yourintent, because there's a
phenomenon and I never knew whatit was until I really learned
about it.
We have this word here, stevemirror imaging.
You know what you want in yourmind, but if you don't convey
that to other people then it'snot going to come out.
Right Now I'll give you anexample of that.
So my you know troops when Imet Fort Dick said hey, sir, you

(22:28):
know, at night, do you mind ifwe get out of our uniform and we
just get into relaxably inclothing, and my command
sergeant, major Donnie, new YorkCity cop, says, sir, don't do
it.
And I said, mike, come on,loosen up.
What's the big deal?
I said I'm 43.
So I figured well what we'regoing to have a nice Notre Dame
shirt on, a nice pair of gymshorts to come down to your
knees, and that was my image ofwhat I was allowing.
Now these guys come back.

(22:48):
All the guys are walking aroundwith their muscle t-shirts they
look like they're on VeniceBeach weightlifting, and the
girls are walking around springbreak it's October, november, so
it's cold, right, people canunderstand that with tank tops
and no brassieres and theirshorts up their rear ends.
And then my CSM finallyconfronts one and she's like
well, how come you're stoppingme?
But that one basically had avagina out and you didn't say

(23:09):
anything to her.
And he comes back to me andtells me this.
And I just look at him.
I go Mike, two things, okay,two things Number one, put them
all back into uniform.
And number two don't ever tellme.
You told me so it was right,but my problem was.
So you as a commander, as aleader, really have to lay out
your intent, because you know,and this is and I was teaching a
class like in foreign policy,you know, the United States says

(23:30):
something and we think peopleare going to react like, oh no,
putin won't invade the Ukraine,because that's not what a
rational actor will do.
Well, we might not be dealingwith a rational actor.
Last thing, I just have to goback because you mentioned about
the soccer team and I don'twant to get too far off this,
but it's a great story about A'sand B's on the field.
So we get to Iraq and wenoticed that we had some—I
didn't meet most of theindividuals that worked for me
until we got to the prison okay,so I had no idea what I was

(23:52):
getting.
It was a crap show.
So we knew we had a lot ofweakness in our own headquarters
company.
We didn't have a lot whiteshining stars there.
So what we said was usuallywhat the military would do was
they would look at the prisonand they would give, for example
, this company, this portion ofthe prison, this company, this
portion of the prison, and theywould just have separate entity.
And we said that's not going towork.

(24:16):
So we mixed everybody.
It was like a big stew.
Just imagine I had 715 people.
At the end of this, I threwthem in a big pot, mixed them up
and I said Hussey from Acompany, smith from B company,
and we put them all together.
Well, my command Colonel Browncame out and says John,
unorthodox, this is notacceptable.
And I said hey, sir, you knowwhat You're the boss and I will
do what you want.
But I'm going to tell you rightnow it's going to fail.
Okay, you want me to put all Asoccer players as forwards?

(24:36):
Right, and I can do that.
And then the B will be midfieldand the C will be on defense.
So we'll score a lot, but we'regoing to get scored on a lot
too.
But if you let me put a coupleof A's, b's and C's at the
forward line, a, b's and C's inthe middle and A, b, c's on
defense, I'm going to have abalanced attack that's going to
bring you victory.
And he looked at me and he saidOkay, because I knew the

(25:00):
culture, I knew what I had in mydeck of cards, and he let me do
it and I mixed it as youdescribed on the soccer team.

Well, you know that's interesting and it's
interesting.
You know we're talking to DrJohn Hussey, a retired major
general, and I want to talkabout that.
Here you are in the NationalGuard and now you're running the
army.
In a lot of ways boggles mymind the use of reserve
components to do active dutywork.
It strikes me and I will tellyou over time, and I profess

(25:27):
this now that avoid saying noand hear me out for a minute.
I'd like your reaction to that.
In many cases I would say no, Idon't like that idea.
That's not going to work.
And the older I got, the moremature I got, the more I
realized by saying no, you'reshutting people down with

(25:48):
innovative ideas.
But I will now say ah, you know, I'm not sure about that.
You'll have to convince me,tell me about that.
And it has changed myperspective and it has changed
my leadership style.
That allows things to come tome that I would have originally
said no to.
How do you feel about that?
I'm not talking about tacticalsituations.

I fully agree.
I love that concept, right.
And so there's a portion in thebook I talk about General
Miller.
He was a four-star general inAfghanistan and he came in and
he sat us all down.
We were the rule of law taskforce, right, running basically
prisons, courts, trying to teachthe Afghanis how to do
detective kind of work andthings of that nature.
And he sat there and he wentaround the room and I was one of

(26:18):
the last individuals to go andthe big concern at this point
was, on December 31st atmidnight, 2014, we ran out of
our authority to hold prisonersand we were getting no guidance
from Department of Defense,state Department what we do with
these guys.
The Afghans didn't want them,so they were basically gonna go
back on the streets from reallybad guys, right, probable humans
that you don't want on thestreet.
So, anyway, that was whateverybody said, and I'm sitting

(26:39):
there saying you know what?
I'm a full colonel, he's a fourstar.
He's got the message Everybody,time after time.
So I'm thinking real quick,what can I say to be correct,
impressive.
So I said, hey, sir, there'sthis amendment, the Leahy
Amendment.
The Leahy Amendment says youknow, if the US is assisting a
nation with funds and ammunitionand things of that nature and
that nation is not living up tomorality.
In to morality, in other wordsconducting extrajudicial

(27:04):
killings, in other words takingpeople behind the tree and
putting a bullet in their head.
Then we can cut off funding, asthe United States and
unfortunately that was happeningin Afghanistan, because here
you have special forces,afghanis and police going out
arresting bad guys.
They go into the local courtand the judges are letting them
out the back door and that'sfrustrating for anybody, but
it's really frustrating for thembecause these are the same
people killing their brothers.
It's really frustrating forthem because these are the same
people killing their brothers.
It's bad for a cop to seeturnstile justice in the United

(27:24):
States but for the most part allright, the guy's back on the
street.
But here in Afghanistan he'sback into the villages and
killing you the night afteryou've apprehended him.
So they were doingextrajudicial killing.
So I said to the gentleman Isaid hey, sir, to avoid this,
why don't we bring up all thepolice, you know, and the
military and show them theJustice Center here in Palawan
and the fact that we can bringthose terrorists here so they

(27:46):
don't go to a local court and wecan try them here?
Do you know, within 72 hours wehad helicopters coming into the
Justice Center in Palawanfilled with senior Afghan
commanders in both the policeand the military.
Because he was willing, generalMiller was to listen to
somebody four or five ranksbelow him and that taught me,
and I always did beforehand.

(28:06):
I'll listen to you.
My problem and I think youbrought it out, steve, and I
want everybody to hear this Ithink any leader's willing to
listen, depending on how youdeliver the message.
People that just wanted toconfront me.
We're standing on a Bronxcorner and you're going to have
a confrontation with me.
I had one person that came outand said he doesn't like to be
second guessed.
No, I'm the boss.
We don't second guess ourteachers.
We don't second guess ourbaseball coaches.

(28:28):
We don't second guess ourpolice lieutenants.
If you have an idea and aconcept, bring it to me.
I'll listen.
But if you think you're goingto put your finger in my chest
as a leader, I can't allow that.
The street is watching and theyneed to know that I'm in
command, not you, and that if Iallow that to happen, that's bad
behavior and we simply can'thave bad behavior in an
organization.
All the listeners, please.
If you're going to go to yourboss with a good idea, present

(28:50):
it properly.

I wrote two words down Do it respectfully,
do it reasonably and do it withthe right tone and the right
intention.

It's not an accusation.

So we're talking to John Hussey and I want to
know I mean, remember that thisis a podcast that's listened to
by police and scholars all overthe world.
I'm very proud of that.
It is about police innovationand providing police service and
being a little bit unusual andout of the norm, dealing with
the culture, all of which youdid as an MP.
What drew you to the MP branch?

I had a mentor there, jimmy Siaka.
He was an MP, and when Itransitioned I had a criminal
justice degree and I was workingin the courts.
What frequently happens, though, is on active duty.
You know you'll pick yourwhatever branch you want to be
infantry, armor, aviation andthen kind of the senior level
the personnel, individuals atwhat's called human resource
command will assign you In thereserve and Guard.

(29:42):
It's a little different.
You'll find people that willusually join units based on the
proximity to home, so you have ayoung 19-year-old.
He or she doesn't want to getin a car and drive five, six
hours.
Now, as you go up in rank andyou start taking commands from
you know, maybe Major,lieutenant, colonel, you may fly
across the country.
I knew people that flew fromGermany to the United States for

(30:02):
weekend drills.
They flew from New York toCalifornia.
The longest I really had to gowas from New York to Chicago, so
that's difficult, though right.
I finished work on a Fridayafternoon to take a half a day,
and I got to run to the airport,get on a plane Sunday night I'm
trying to make it back and makeit back from Chicago with no
snow to be at work Monday, so itcan be difficult.
That's kind of how the reserveworks.
After the Vietnam War, thesenior level of the military

(30:24):
looked and said you know what?
We took everything to Vietnamexcept one thing the population.
They were not involved in thiswar at all Drafted and so there
was actually to put a lot ofassets into the Guard and
Reserve.
And the concept there wasobviously you save money, but
the next time we went to warwe'd be bringing the American
public with us.
So if you recall Desert Stormand maybe some of your listeners

(30:44):
may be a little too young whenwe went to Desert Storm, I mean
every town across the UnitedStates was affected, because
this wasn't just active duty.
Now you were activating unitsin Alabama, new York, illinois,
and you can remember thefamilies coming to those
deployment send-offs, the wholetown with yellow ribbons.
So they brought the Americanpeople to the war with them.
Today, less than 1% of Americaserves.

(31:06):
So if you line up a footballfield with 100 individuals aged
18 to 24, the military cannottalk to 75% of them, so 75 have
to go to the showers right away.
They're overweight, they don'thave the right education, arrest
records, psychological problems, drug problems.
That means they can only talkto 25.
It doesn't mean they're getting25.
They can talk to 25.
So we've really got kind oflike a mercenary military now

(31:29):
today.
So that Guard and Reservebrings the American community
into the military and into ournational foreign policy.
So I'm like a big link as areservist connecting a community
that knows nothing about themilitary into the military.
And I used to mandate that theofficers that work for me have
to go out once a year and speakat a Rotary, a VFW, an American
Legion, any kind of thosemeetings, so they have the

(31:50):
ability to talk and understand,and that's why I even do these
podcasts right, so that they canunderstand that.
So in the MPs it's about over40,000 MPs in the US Army and
it's broken down by aboutone-third.
One-third.
One-third meaning an activeduty National Guard and Army
Reserve, and the Army Reservereally has a big portion of the

(32:11):
detention ops mission, okay, andso I commanded the 200th MP
command.
I was responsible for over14,000 soldiers and I told them
when the balloon goes up,meaning if we go to conflict,
that's our mission, and a lot ofyounger soldiers are like oh,
you know, I don't want to dothis, it's boring.
And I said you have no ideawhat you're talking about.
I mean, you have every day,you're guaranteed contact with
the enemy.

(32:31):
If you go back and study EPWoperations in Germany, korea,
you know, and all throughout itis a hard mission and you will
be driving to the front andunder combat fire, trying to
bring prisoners back to the rear.
You'll be flying and we had ConAir in Iraq where we actually
got on C-130s and flew detaineesfrom basically Baghdad down to
the Kuwaiti border in a placecalled Kambuka.

(32:52):
So it's an exciting mission,it's a lot, it's very
interactive and so that kind ofgives it.
Now the last portion of yourquestion is how do you rise so
fast?
And I spoke at a leadershipconference up in Orange County,
wanted first responders in tohear this, and it's very
important and this is key foryour first responders.
First of all, it's mentorship.
People took the time to investin me, but it's not because I

(33:13):
came in and I was good looking.
Steve can see me, many of youcan't.
He'll tell you I'm not a goodlooking guy, so there's nothing-
.

You have a face of radio, my friend right.

There you go, right.
So nobody has to see it.
But you know what I had?
I had the willingness to learn,to put in the extra time, to
come in on Tuesday nights to themeetings in the armory where we
were getting paid and to staytill 1030.
To go up to my boss, notbecause I was kissing his
backside and say, hey, boss, yougot a lot on your plate, me any
kind of assignment.
So the other thing was it'stough assignments, right.

(33:41):
And so the one thing in themilitary that I try to mentor
young officers is you've got totake the tough assignments,
command being the hardest.
Going on deployments overseas.
So I've deployed six times fourinto combat zones.
I've had command in combat wherea lot of my peers didn't, and
so, yeah, I sacrificed a lot.
When I look in retrospect,maybe I hurt my family a bit,

(34:02):
but we're intact.
We really are.
We'll all be together forChristmas.
You know, I put a lot ofpressure on my wife, janice, and
she represents military andfirst responders, police,
firefighters, ems.
She represents those spouses.

They bear a lot of responsibility.
They have to be independent.

They're on their own and the American public has
no idea.

And they worry about us.
So I understand You'reabsolutely right.

Listen, I'm going to say something and I don't
care if it's politically corrector not right.
We do a month of whatever PrideMonth or a month of this month,
you know all this and we do oneday of Veterans Day.
We do one day Memorial Day.
When are we going to givemilitary families and first
responder families their own dayright?
Skip a month.
I just want them to have oneday.
Our leaders get that and you asleaders in the law enforcement,

(34:41):
and you can do that by.
Hey, you know, and I used totell people if your son has a
championship football game oryour daughter is a championship
soccer game and you're at theunit and not with them, I'm
going to be really pissed off atyou.
Now, if you come to me everyweek and tell me, well, my son's
got a piano lesson, mydaughter's got whatever
ballerina, then you and I aregoing to have a problem.
When you have those wrestlemoments, you better take them.

(35:02):
You have an anniversary andyou're coming away this week.
Maybe I can understand that.
We can look at things.
And death, absolutely.
You know, you have no businessbeing around an armory when
you've had a death in yourfamily or work, and we can get
into that.
I call it the good, bad and theugly list what the mentorship
is.
Make sure, if you're a policeleader, what are you doing to
men, individuals, because you'renot going to be there forever

(35:22):
when you retire in 20 years.
And if you're a policelieutenant, you don't have 20
years, you might have another 15.
Who's taking your place?
You're replaceable, you know.
So are you looking to get thatindividual, maybe to make sure
they have their bachelor's,their master's, through the FBI
Academy?
Are you looking?
I don't know, many people know,but they have a master's degree
out at the Naval PostgraduateSchool for First Responders.
That gives you a master'sdegree in Homeland Defense.

(35:44):
It's incredible and we're notaffording our people the
opportunity to do this.
And if you're a captain,whatever chief of police, and
you're not thinking about whatthe organization looks like in
10 to 15 years and how I'msetting a roadmap for my
sergeants to be thoselieutenants and captains and
chiefs in years to come?

then you're failing as a leader.
So you have to have thatprogram in place.
No, you're right, and I alwaysuse the saying be a mentor and
have a mentor, because it's atwo-way street.
What I said from the beginningis that we really have to see
ourselves as coaches, mentors.
What I like about what you'retalking about is the willingness
to learn.
But let's go back to whatprepared you for your leadership
position.
We do it so much differently inthe public sector.
We wait, have a job, it opens.
We have to wait for you toleave.

(36:27):
Then we advertise it.
We put somebody in, we sewstripes on them and we say go do
the job, but we never tell themhow to do the job.
You understand what I'm saying.
That doesn't happen in themilitary, and while we in law
enforcement hold ourselves to bea mirror image, if you will, of
the military, we're so far awayfrom the way that the military
prepares future leaders.

(36:48):
Talk about your experience withthat.

Great conversation .
So I think the active duty doesa good job.
So if you're selected for acommand position, be it command
sergeant, major battalion andbrigade command, you have to go
to a course.
It used to be a week, I thinkit's about two or three weeks
now.
Go to it.
I've spoken at these coursesand given my tidbit.
What happened to me wasdifferent.
So they do what's called achange of command.
The band comes, my wife andkids are there, the general

(37:10):
comes and he does this flagceremony and I get it.
And there I am.
Then all of a sudden the bandleaves, the wife leaves and
you're in charge, and thereserves.
I didn't get to go to thisschool till eight months later,
so it's just the same.

Wow, yeah, so here.

I was, it was just timing.

So here's what I did.

But, steve, this is what I did.
I said you know what?
Talk about a learning point,remember?
I said at the beginning welearn from our mistakes.
I said I'm never going to allowthis to happen to me.
So when I got my two-starcommand, I had brand new
commanders that were scheduledto go to that course I.
I am now with sexual assaultthat if you're a commander and

(37:49):
you don't report a sexualassault, you could basically
lose your job.
And there's a differencebetween sexual harassment
Someone tells a joke at thewater cooler and then sexual
assault.
Somebody grabs, let's say, awoman's buttocks okay, that's an
assault.
And if you don't report that,right, that's mandatory
reporting.
But who's telling that?

individual.

He's not going to find that out until six or eight
months later.
So here's what I did.
I said to my staff we're goingto change the paradigm.
We're going to do a weekendhere with the 200th MP command
and we're going to bring in ourJAGs, our inspector generals, me
, my command sergeant major, andwe're going to give a one
weekend, like a day and a halffull, with everybody explaining
what you need to succeed.
Starting out, nothing butaccolades.

(38:26):
On that, the JAGs got up.
They spoke about whistleblowingis a big thing in the military.
So, for example, if you have asoldier that files a
congressional, that's hisabsolute right and you can do
nothing to impede them, hurtthem or anything else.
But again, the normal humanreaction is to take retribution
and if you do that as a leaderin the military, it's over.
But if you don't teach them?
So my lawyers and inspectorgenerals taught them that, and

(38:48):
then I would get up as an oldercommander and I say, guys, you
know I used to take it personal,don't?
It's part of business.
And I said the firstcongressional I got, I was in a
panic.
I was a two-star commander, Iwas handling congressmen
probably about five to ten amonth, and no disrespect to the
elected officials.
They're just doing a letterhead, sending it off to the military
, and they want theirconstituent to see look, I did
it for you.
Nothing really changes and ifwe're wrong and we made a

(39:10):
mistake, it brings attention tous.
We'd rather the soldiers usethe chain of command, but so
what?
We got the congressional, butthe point was we were teaching
our people how to do it.
If you're a leader in a policedepartment, don't just make this
person a sergeant, and I thinkthe NYPD does a good job.
So if Hussey grew up and I wasa cop in the 52nd precinct, I
got promoted.
I can't come back there.
I have to go to anotherprecinct because I used to drink

(39:31):
with those guys and they knowall my shenanigans.
How are they going to respectme as a boss?
So send me someplace else but,more importantly, put me through
some form of academy.
Give me a lieutenant that's, amentor, someone that I can come
to and talk to.
And if you're interested, steve, I was asked by a police chief
to come speak to his supervisors.
That's my recommendation andadvice to police leaders out
there.

So let's talk about we have to wind down.
It's so easy to chat with youYou've got so much experience
and I appreciate getting you outthere but let's talk about the
book.
It's not an easy thing whenyou're writing, as I know.
It is lonely and there'spressure that comes on you Once
you say I'm going to write abook, when are you done?
When are you done?
When are you done?
Got to change this, got tochange that.
What made you take that steptowards writing inside the-.

So I tell and it's great it's a police audience
out here I tell people, you knowwhat?
Everybody's got a story right.
I don't care if you're a DEAagent, fbi, everybody has a
story.
Well, there's not too manypeople that were detectives, so
there's really nobody that hasthis type of experience that I

(40:36):
do, doing detention operationsin combat in Desert Storm as
lieutenant, then getting the AbuGhraib prison, transitioning
into the Afghan prison where Imentored four Afghani generals,
and then going on and being thedeputy commanding general down
at Guantanamo Bay.
So I have a lot of experience.
So, a I wanted to talk aboutthose experiences.
B the leadership experiences.
I grew because I was like ateenager when I went to Iraq.

(40:58):
I was a major that's a fieldgrade officer and I thought I
knew everything and I got a PhDin combat leadership from some
great people, fabulous, fabulousleaders and it was great.
So I passed those lessons offto people in the book.
And then the other piece washere I am you talk about again,
not me.
I'm not trying to talk about me, but I was sitting as a
two-star commander and we'redoing a quarterly training

(41:21):
briefing, which means I bringpeople in every quarter and I go
over their calendars to lookwhere they're going.
And I said to this one colonel,I said have you ever been to a
run a POW camp?
And she said no, but I visitedone.
It's in the book.
And I said, well, I visited arestaurant but I don't know how
it runs.
What do I boil the chicken at?
What happens if the ice machinebreaks?
I said big difference betweenrunning a prison and visiting

(41:42):
one.
Same with the restaurant.
So I looked at a couple ofpeople.
I said you know these guysdon't realize it, but they're
playing musical chairs and, likeme, sooner or later one of them
is going to get caught beingmobilized to go overseas and run
a prison.
And I said they don't know whatthey're talking about.
So I put together the DOTEDetainee Operations Training
Event and I ran into so manyproblems.
It was right in the middle ofCOVID, but my plan was to bring
the smartest minds I knew indetention operations and some

(42:04):
four stars to talk about this.
We had a four-day conference.
General Petraeus, who I thinkthe world knows, dealt with this
in Afghanistan and Iraq.
I had General Brooks, four-starfrom Korea, absolutely fabulous
mentor, and the guy was on it.
He spoke about this.
Then I brought in a couple ofthree-stars.
Laura Potter, she's from theintelligence world and I worked
with her in Afghanistan as acolonel.
She's a three-star.

(42:24):
And then we brought GeneralQuantock, who's a legend.
He retired as the Army IG buthe was the provost marshal and
we taught out people verystrategic level I mean national
issues down to how to feed adetainee and count detainees in
the camp and we gave them fourdays of training and then at the
end I wrote for the public'sinformation white, commanding a
detention operations camp is sodifficult because people forget

(42:46):
the enemy gets a vote and theyknow our rules of engagement.
We're not barbarians.
I can't just open up and uselethal force like some nations
might, and they know that.
So they push us to the edge.
And in some cases I discuss inthe book where I was going to
use lethal force and insituations in Iraq it was used
under the same auspices as youin the law enforcement community
, based on threat of life andserious physical injury.

(43:07):
But I left 50 tidbits at theend.
I got the greatest minds in theTaney Ops.
So 20 years from now, if,hussey, I tell everyone I'm in
the old general's nursing home,we're all going to pass on and
sooner or later some kid thatmight be 28 today might be 45 in
years to come.
He can pick up this book andread about it and read the 50
lessons that we wrote down forhim Okay, because America is

(43:28):
terrible at reading doctrine andpast after action reports but
this book might give him a freshstart and a fair chance to
succeed.
That's what we really wanted towrite it and, you know why,
brought in some great minds tohelp look at it and put together
the thought process.

So we're talking to John Hussey and I think
that's very valuable.
And I think one of the thingsand Bill Bratton says it, I say
it in the forthcoming book,choosing to Lead that the old
saying, if we don't learnhistory, history will repeat
itself.
And that's exactly what you'resaying.
We lose so much institutionalknowledge as people pass on.
If you don't document it anddon't give it to people, then

(44:02):
it's just going to happen again.
We've got to learn from ourmistakes.
John, I have a question as itcomes back to leadership.
If you think back to the firsttime that you were in Saudi as a
lieutenant and you were leading, I understand that most of us
are enamored with the stripes orthe bars and you lead in a
certain way at first until yourealize that may not work.

(44:22):
So the big question is how haveyou seen your leadership
approach evolve over time?
Where you led in 91 is muchdifferent than in 2024, would
you say.

Oh, without question, and just your thought
process, the way you think.
Before we leave, I just want totouch on one thing.
It's called the good, bad andugly list, if you allow me.
But absolutely.
And one thing though even inIraq, I had so many different
ways.
So at times when you deal withdeath, you have to be willing
literally to stand up and hugsomebody and share a tear with
them, because, I mean, horriblesituation happened in Iraq where

(44:53):
we had to call a soldier in attwo in the morning.
His young son died at home.
He was playing with a blindstring and he basically hung
himself.
That was probably one of theworst experiences of my military
career to have to do thatbecause we were all fathers,
right, and oh my God.
So you have to have compassionand humanity.
So you have to have humanity,empathy, right.
You have to have understanding,right.

(45:14):
And even if me, when I would dosold, you had to pep them up
because they were still going towork for you and say all right,
son, or you know you made amistake here, but I still have
confidence in you and I've gotto hold you to a standard, I've
got to hold you accountable, butI know you can go out and do
the job, because if you leavethem with no dignity in anything
, you're going to leave thathead down and that's not going
to help you with the mission.

I mean you have to give people hope and belief
to the degree that, look, youdid mess up.
I've got to take some action.
But it doesn't mean you can'tget back on the horse and ride
and I'll help you as you comeback.

That's a good leader and you try.
And then I had the others andthis is less 10%, but they were
out there and they just kepttesting me and testing me.
And I had my CSM went up to oneof them, don't you understand?
Every time you smack him in theface, he punches you in the
nose.
It's like the old untouchablesright, don't bring a knife to a
gunfight.
And he used to say and it goesback to my culture, this guy's a
guy from the Bronx, in otherwords, out, and it was done

(46:05):
publicly, privately, and I heldthem accountable.
And there were a couple ofpeople at times I had to call in
and you could just close thedoor and I used to work for
leaders, we would say in themilitary.
He was someone that you justdidn't want to upset.
He didn't have he or she didn'thave to say a word.
They just looked at you andshook your head and you felt

(46:27):
this big.
And so there were certainsoldiers I could just call in my
office and just look at them,and just look at them and go
really, and they just duckedtheir head and go, sir, I'm so
sorry, it'll never happen again.
So you have to have variousleadership and management styles
, depending on the personalitiesyou're dealing with and the
situation you're dealing with.

I was just going to say that Situation,
leadership at its face, yes,great.

Absolutely, absolutely.
The one thing I did want totouch upon that I think is key
and we miss an opportunity.
I call it the good, bad and theugly list, right?
Hey, if you're a leader outthere and you have a police
officer that works for you andyou just found out that his son
got a full scholarship intoHarvard, pick up the phone, send
a note from your departmentwith your letterhead
congratulating the family.
Call that young man.
That's the good, the bad.

(47:07):
You know, when it happened tome, I had a soldier, his kid was
on a treadmill, fell, rippedapart his face.
I called that soldier's family,right, I don't remember the
call, but he came up to me ayear later and said sir, you
don't have any idea what thatcall meant to my family when you
made that.
And then you have the ugly andthe ugly's death right.
And I dealt with a lot ofsuicides in that.
I just cleared my desk rightand right.

(47:36):
And Joe Biden caught a lot ofgrief from this when the 13
killed at the Abbey Gate wherethey felt that he spoke about
Bowen.
That's the tendency.
Oh, I know how you feel.
They don't want to hear that.
They want to talk about theloved one they lost.
And you need to put yourself ontotal mute and you need to just
listen and you need to be readyto say and know that individual
Well, you know he worked as apolice officer in my
organization.
I met him a few times and Ireally liked the way he got
involved in the local community.
But you've got to have some goodtalking points.
Even though you may have anorganization of 22,000 cops,

(47:57):
that time it's just you and thatfamily talking about the
special contribution that thatindividual made.
And you need to make thosewakes and you need to make those
social events.
And the other thing I say is Iwon't drink.
When I was a two-star general,I went to these social events.
If I was going to lose mycareer, I was going to lose it
on something I did, but notbecause alcohol was involved.
And let me tell you somethingI'm going to a law enforcement
retirement party tonight andI'll be drinking some Cole

(48:19):
Stellers Time and a place foreverything right, but when I'm
doing business as a leader, Iwould avoid the alcohol that is
going to get you into trouble.
Anyway, those are my thoughts.

Steve, that's good.
Well, I think that it's been avery wide-ranging conversation
based on your experience aboutthe book, about your
representation, about yourservice, and thank you for your
service, and you continue togive back, as I do.
I'm very lucky at the Citadel,which is a great institution,
and I should tell you that I'llbe there in a few weeks and I
hope to meet with you down inSouth Carolina.
Look, this is aboutrelationship.

(48:50):
Policing is about relationships.
Leadership is aboutrelationships.
It's about humility.
It's about having empathy.
It's about caring and earningtrust and being direct when you
have to and seeking feedback.
At least in my estimation.
We've been talking to JohnHussey Before we leave.
John got new people that you'redealing with who are
potentially future leaders inthe military down at the Citadel
and you're so familiar with somany people courts and parole

(49:19):
and probation and policing whatadvice do you give to people who
take these jobs as to theirwillingness to raise their hand
and step up a step where they'reno longer responsible for only
themselves but for others?

Don't embarrass the organization, because when
you talk about what happened inAbu Ghraib, they caused a lot of
casualties.
There's people today, atChristmas time, families have to
go visit cemeteries becausetheir loved ones are there based
on the actions of theseindividuals.
There's so many foreignfighters that came in,
terrorists, the money that cameup, and then we have we call
them strategic corporalsindividuals like that that can

(49:47):
make a dumb decision and then itaffects the United States.
And a similar situation forpolicing would be Derek Chauvin
and what happened with GeorgeFloyd.
Right, you set policing backglobally 10 years and that's
tough for the police officers togo out today, especially into
some of these minoritycommunities, to deal with.
And they're judging thatindividual officer who might be
21 or 22 today and was so youngwhen that incident happened.

(50:09):
But they're still being held towhat Chauvin did right.
So don't embarrass theorganization.
Always ask yourself and Ialways did this can you be
satisfied if your actions appearon the front page of the New
York Times?
Or you have to stand and Ialways did this in front of the
Senate Armed Service Committeeand state where you made this
decision and you're okayethically with looking at it

(50:29):
yourself, because I'll tell youwhat you're going to deal with
your family and looking in themirror and your legacy for a
long time and you don't want tobe embarrassed.
I want my children to be proudof me and I hope they are and my
family and friends and thatname, and I even put that in the
book.
You know, my grandparents camefrom Ireland and gave us this
life.
Like many immigrants' families,they came with nothing and gave
us this beautiful country andthis life and they said don't

(50:50):
ever embarrass your Irish people, your Irish heritage and your
family name.
And I take that with a lot ofpride, as many other immigrants
do around the nation.

Well, john, thanks very much.
I appreciate you being heretoday and I look forward to
seeing you in the next month orso down in South Carolina and to
bring you to Liberty to speakwith the command college there.

Real quick, Steve.
Just one thing.
College there Real quick, Steve.
Just one thing.
If anybody wants the book, it'son Amazon Inside the Wire, Just
look it up, Hussey.
And the other thing, if anybody, if I said something here that
you think, as a leader, mayinterest you, you can find me on
LinkedIn.
Just reach out, instant messageme and I will be happy to help
you in any way, any form ofmentorship that I can.
And, Steve, to you and yourfamily and to the law
enforcement community and firstresponders and, of course, our

(51:31):
military and all your listeners.
A very happy holiday season andthank you for having me on.

Thank you.
That's how I found John Hussey.
I found him on LinkedIn, soit's a great place to be.
So, john, thank you very much.
That's another episode of theCop Talk Podcast in the books,
and we'll be back with moreepisodes.
Thanks for continuing to listen.
If you have any idea ofsomebody I should be speaking
with, please reach out for me.
Linkedin is one way to do it.
Otherwise, have a safe travel,be careful.

(51:55):
Good holidays.

Thanks for listening to The CopDoc Podcast
with Dr Steve Morreale.
Steve is a retired lawenforcement practitioner and
manager, turned academic andscholar from Worcester State
University.
Please tune into The CopD ocPodcast for regular episodes of
interviews with thought leadersin policing.

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From the Bronx to the Battlefield: Leadership Lessons with MG (ret) Dr. John Hussey - U.S. Army Military Police Corps

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}From the Bronx to the Battlefield: Leadership Lessons with MG (ret) Dr. John Hussey - U.S. Army Military Police Corps