The CopDoc Podcast - Season 8 - Episode 154
Leadership doesn't happen in a vacuum – especially in policing, where decisions impact both officers and communities. In this revealing conversation, Assistant Chief Jonathan Ziders takes us on his remarkable journey from reluctant recruit to departmental leader.
"I never wanted to be a cop," Ziders candidly shares at the start of our discussion. His original dream of becoming a firefighter gave way to a policing career that has seen him rise through every rank in the Lancaster, NY Police Department, culminating in his recent appointment as the agency's first-ever Assistant Chief. This unique trajectory provides the backdrop for exploring how leadership perspectives transform with increased responsibility.
Communication emerges as perhaps the most critical skill for police leaders. Ziders reflects on his evolution from an introverted officer to a leader responsible for setting departmental tone. "I had to learn how to speak and communicate differently because I started to realize that how I thought I should be wasn't going to work," he explains. His emphasis on explaining "the why" behind directives resonates as a leadership principle applicable far beyond policing.
The conversation takes a fascinating turn when Ziders discusses his data-driven approach to mental health response. After analyzing call data, he discovered mental health incidents were dramatically underreported in their systems – not intentionally, but due to classification practices. This revelation led to exploring co-responder models that pair officers with mental health clinicians, representing the forward-thinking approaches Ziters brings to his department.
Throughout our discussion, Ziders repeatedly returns to the service core of policing, explaining how he reinforces this value with new officers: "When we're looking at hiring, those are the types of people that we want - the service-oriented individuals." His philosophy of leadership being about character – "who you are, not what you do" – offers wisdom for leaders in any field.
Join us for this candid look at police leadership and discover why explaining purpose, fostering communication, and maintaining authenticity might be the most valuable tools in any leader's arsenal.
Contact us: copdoc.podcast@gmail.com
Website: www.copdocpodcast.com
If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at stephen.morreale@gmail.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Intro/Outro (00:00):
Welcome to the CopDoc Podcast.
This podcast explores policeleadership issues and innovative
ideas.
The CopDoc shares thoughts andideas as he talks with leaders
in policing communities,academia and other government
agencies.
And now please join Dr.
(00:20):
Steve Morreale and industrythought leaders as they share
their insights and experience onThe Cop Doc Podcast.
Steve Morreale (00:28):
Hey everybody, Steve Morreale coming to you
again from Boston and you'relistening to another episode of
the Cop Doc Podcast.
Today we go to Lake Erie, nearthe Canadian border, in Buffalo,
to Lancaster, new York, and andwe have assistant chief
Jonathan Ziders here.
How are you, John?
Jonathan Ziders (00:48):
I'm great, Steve, how are you?
I'm super glad to be here.
Steve Morreale (00:51):
I'm glad.
Well you know I'm thinking isthat you're hearing, that you're
hearing the intro.
It must be weird for you to one, it must be.
So let me explain to theaudience.
So John is one of the firstguys who reached out to me.
I think at the time we weresergeant or lieutenant.
Jonathan Ziders (01:07):
Lieutenant we have.
A lieutenant is actually thefirst line supervisor here.
Steve Morreale (01:12):
Oh, okay, so you were a lieutenant.
You reached out to me and Iactually got on a phone call and
we started to talk and we'veconnected and one of the things
you can certainly say that youwere saying is you're getting
some things out of The CopDocPodcast and here you are sitting
, I'm watching you, you'resitting, you're hearing the
intro and I saw a little smirk.
So tell me how that felt.
For a moment, I tell you.
Jonathan Ziders (01:33):
I'll tell you the truth.
I t was wild.
I don't know if I've listenedto every single podcast, but
easily probably 90% of them, andsometimes just because things
got lost in the mix but be ableto sit here, listen to the intro
and understand that I'm face toface with you, so to speak, it
is an honor and I reallyappreciate everything the
(01:54):
podcast has done for me.
I think at one point we had aconversation on the phone and
I'm like hey, you, actually thepodcast kind of talks me off the
ledge sometimes.
I mean that kind of in a goodway, because sometimes you get
in these environments andagencies can be very insular.
(02:15):
You know, you get sucked intoyour own little world here, and
what your podcast has offeredCopDoc Podcast has offered me is
that perspective from all overthe world really I mean the
individuals that you've hadconversations with, from
overseas and obviously withinthis country as well has just
(02:35):
really opened my perspective towhat else is out there, because
you know Western New York it'salmost like a little island.
Steve Morreale (02:43):
Sometimes it is, it seems almost like a little
island sometimes it is.
Jonathan Ziders (02:46):
It seems like times sometimes stand still and
again, ultimately, perspectivesand just the insight that so
many of your guests and youyourself offer is something that
I hadn't been exposed topreviously.
Yourself offer is somethingthat I hadn't been exposed to
previously, and now for severalyears, I regularly chime in and
(03:09):
make sure that I'm listening, soI appreciate that.
Steve Morreale (03:12):
All right.
So enough of that.
Thank you very much, but I'm soglad to have somebody who was a
listener.
A couple of things.
I'm going to take a littlecredit, and it's certainly
vicarious credit, but for you tohave moved up as you have
during your career is amazing tome and that's one of the
reasons I reached back out toyou, and I know that you are now
enrolled at my alma mater, NovaSoutheastern University, down
(03:35):
in Fort Lauderdale, for a PhD,and I'll be curious to know how
that is changing your mindsetand how you're looking to
implement things, how you'rechanging the way.
Maybe you were treated as youcame up with some old-time
leaders Not that they weren'tgood leaders, but they were
different, and you know that I'mseeing your head shake.
But let's get started A littlelate in this, but let's get
(03:57):
started with you.
Where you are Lancaster, youare an assistant chief how you
got into policing I know youwere in the park police, but
let's go back in history beforewe get going.
Jonathan Ziders (04:09):
Yeah, interesting with me.
I never wanted to be a cop.
I actually wanted to be afirefighter since I was a little
kid and as I got older thatcontinued to be the case.
But eventually, throughconversations with some friends
and some different experiences,I was like, hey, you would be a
great police officer.
And there's a couple ofdifferent stories and I'll just
(04:29):
speak to one briefly.
I was almost involved in anaccident and I was able to avoid
it, but the individual wenthead-on with a car behind me, so
I pulled off to the side andthe individuals ended up being
okay.
But this gentleman went up tothe individual, caused the
accident and basically started aconfrontation with them and I
(04:52):
was, you know.
I got out, confronted both ofthem, had this individual go
stand off to the side, wait forthe police to show up, try to
take care of what was going onwith the individual inside the
car, tried to take care of whatwas going on with the individual
inside the car and after thatcall.
This individual who had createdthe confrontation was like hey,
have you ever thought aboutbeing a police officer?
Steve Morreale (05:14):
This is a guy that was just pissed off a
minute ago.
Jonathan Ziders (05:17):
Yes, he was a retired cop.
Oh no, kidding, he's like theway you handled that was pretty
much perfect.
You took control.
I had some friends that knew me, that knew my demeanor and how
I looked at things and how Ihandled myself and how I carried
(05:38):
myself.
The first police exam I tookwas a combination of state parks
and the Erie County police examout here.
So same same exam basically,and each one hires from from
that.
So I got the call from stateparks first, went through their
process, which is is very indepth.
Steve Morreale (06:00):
We'll say so.
That took some time and timeconsuming.
Jonathan Ziders (06:03):
So eventually I was actually hired by them and
started the academy in 2005.
Graduated in 2006.
Interestingly, in the academy Iended up with the PT award.
I'm a big fitness guy, I lovestaying in shape and to me it's
just important for lawenforcement and it was a goal of
mine from before I even started.
(06:24):
And I actually received aleadership award in the academy
too and I'm saying this becauseI don't want to, I don't
necessarily like talking aboutaccolades, yeah, but it's.
It's important because when Ilook back to where I am now, it
still is unbelievable to me.
And it was just all of thesethings kind of pieced together
throughout my career.
(06:44):
And it kind of started therebecause that leadership award
was something that was voted onby my peers.
It had nothing to do with theinstructors of the academy, it
was by my peers and through thatI actually had to write a
speech, give the speech atgraduation, and a bunch of
(07:06):
buddies in the Academy mentionedthat I could hold the tune.
I would not say I'm a greatsinger, but I can hold the tune
and I also ended up having tosing the national anthem at
graduation.
I'm not necessarily an outgoingindividual slightly more
introverted.
So that was the Academyexperiences.
(07:26):
I ended up actually working inNew York City for a year with
New York State Parks, which waseye-opening.
It gave me a perspective on howa different section of not only
a state but just New York Cityis its own microcosm.
You can almost call it amacrocosm because it's so large
(07:48):
and the perspectives andexperiences of individuals that
lived there was vastly differentfrom what I had experienced my
entire life.
There was no doubt that my firstday on FTO that I was driving
around in some of the citystreets, day on FTO that I was
driving around in some of thecity streets, my eyes probably
(08:10):
bugging out of my head, becauseit was just overwhelming
Definitely different from whereI came from.
But after that, the day I wastransferred back to Western New
York, I was going to end upworking in Niagara Falls.
I ended up getting a phone callfrom Lancaster literally the
day that I arrived home fromgetting transferred from New
(08:30):
York City back to Niagara Fallsand they had a spot open.
So I came interviewed here asimpler process because I was
already a certified policeofficer and I was actually on
the list as well.
So it was a simple process.
Still had to go through aninterview and all the rest of
the process down at the countyLancaster brought me on board,
and that was in 2007.
(08:51):
So I've been with Lancastersince then.
You've been probably see.
Steve Morreale (08:56):
you were an officer, you were sergeant,
lieutenant and you are now, inessence, the number two, correct
?
Jonathan Ziders (09:06):
So 2015, I made lieutenant that's first line
here and then 2020, I became anadmin lieutenant, and then 2023,
captain and last month,assistant chief.
And the assistant chief'sposition is brand new, it had
never existed here before and wecan get into kind of how that
(09:29):
transpired and I think how myrelationship with the chief
opened in some of theconversations that he had with
some other chiefs in the area,shined a light on the benefit of
having a position.
But it was was I think a lot ofit was driven by my approach to
(09:50):
two things and I'll get intointo that, as we probably have.
Steve Morreale (09:55):
So let me ask you some questions.
So as you rise, as you go fromsergeant to lieutenant to
captain, how did you have tofind yourself changing as your
job and scope broadened?
Jonathan Ziders (10:12):
So really it became for me.
I was forced to come out of myshell.
A big part of me has alwaysbeen I've always respected other
people.
I've always held myselfaccountable in a lot of ways as
I moved through the ranks andhad to address people
(10:33):
differently.
I had to learn how to speak andcommunicate differently,
because I started to realizethat how I thought I should be
wasn't going to work, realizedthat how I thought I should be
wasn't going to work.
I had some examples from someother supervisors that I didn't
really care for, so I opted tochange that communication.
(10:55):
One example I'll tell you thismuch.
So I became a lieutenant.
There was another lieutenant whowas working and I decided that
the simplest way for me tocommunicate was through email.
As we all know, at this pointit's probably one of the worst
ways to communicate, especiallyif you just want to narrow
things down and speak directlyto either an individual or small
(11:17):
group of people.
I did this kind of as a blanketstatement, and one lieutenant
came at me you don't tell mewhat to do.
This wasn't meant for me.
You need to talk to themdirectly.
And he lieutenant came at meyou don't tell me what to do.
This wasn't meant for me.
You need to talk to themdirectly.
And he kind of put me in myplace.
All right, you know what?
I'm never going to do thisagain.
So at that point on it had tobecome a lot more direct
communication with individuals.
But it was also generally aconversation.
(11:39):
I'm not a yeller, I'm not ayeller, so I had to make sure
that if I was having thisconversation, that I held firm,
I maintained respect, but thatperson knew that I was serious
about what I was speaking about,and that was early on.
(12:01):
Some of the bigger adjustmentsI had to make was really just
the communication aspect of it.
Moving forward.
The relationships that broughtme to where I'm at now, in this
position, were developed throughthat process of communication,
and I'm probably going to harpon the communication aspect of
(12:23):
it because it's something that Istill feel short on.
Steve Morreale (12:26):
Yeah.
Jonathan Ziders (12:27):
That I'm still developing, yeah.
Steve Morreale (12:28):
So let me ask, let me ask as you continue.
You know you're in the, you'rein the shadows of Buffalo,
you're on the, you're on theshores of Lake Erie, pretty
close.
Yeah, all right, so it's asmall town village and you've
got a small organization.
(12:49):
So you said something a littlebit ago and that is that you can
be almost in a cocoon up there,and so how do you find outside
ideas beyond the podcast?
Do you belong now to chiefsassociation, iacp or any of that
that has helped you expand yourhorizon, expand your world view
(13:13):
?
Uh, to help you, you know, takethe small agency and make sure
that you're doing things.
Jonathan Ziders (13:18):
The agency is doing things that are sort of
current and up to date so I'm aa member of the IACP also, the
American Society ofEvidence-Based Policing.
Next year I actually want toget to their conference.
Steve Morreale (13:31):
Yeah, I was there this year and it was worth
it, so I think you'll enjoy it.
Jonathan Ziders (13:34):
I do have an intention there.
Yeah, I do read.
Audiobooks are often my go-tojust because they're convenient,
but I do read several.
I to tell you the truth, it'sdifficult for me to name very
specific leadership books thatI've enjoyed.
One of the more recent ones wasI trust and inspire by.
Steve Morreale (13:56):
Oh, you got to read choosing to lead my friend,
the one I just wrote.
Jonathan Ziders (14:00):
That is on my list.
Obviously, it would be aseamless.
I could certainly throw that atyou.
Intro/Outro (14:09):
I haven't gotten there yet, but it's going to
happen.
Jonathan Ziders (14:11):
A lot of Simon Sinek's work I follow them on
LinkedIn, the Curve and a lot ofthe information that they put
out is just fantastic.
Put out is just fantasticbecause the information is
(14:32):
presented in such a way that,like you, don't get frequently
and it's a shame that we don't,but we don't get it often in.
On my end of things in policingright now, there are there's
leadership courses people canget sent to and I feeling you
know some of you know some ofthe work that you do as well is
accessible out there, but youreally have to go seek it out.
Steve Morreale (14:52):
Well, wait a minute, didn't you tell me
you're going somewhere prettysoon, to which national?
Oh yes, that's kind ofimportant, right.
So that's another.
Jonathan Ziders (15:03):
Yes, so that's another aspect of this.
Right, we haven't had anybodygo to the National Academy in
over 30 years and I had aconversation with at the time we
were both lieutenants.
We were at a local FBI leadertraining that was being held
here and the FBI will come in,and they kind of gave their
(15:26):
narrative on what the FBINational Academy is and I'm like
man, that'd be fantastic to goto.
And this was 2018.
And when the chief became thechief at a local chief's meeting
, the FBI came in again andpresented the same thing and
again he brought it back andsaid hey, do you still want to
(15:47):
do this?
I'm going to ask the town boardif we can send you.
And that's exactly what he did.
And now I will be heading thereat the end of this month and I
can't wait for what I'mpresented with there that I can
bring back here and hopefullyshare with everybody else and
present it in such a way that wecan continue to send people
(16:09):
when at all.
Steve Morreale (16:10):
You know, yeah, so.
So you don't keep it foryourself, but you identify new
leaders and send it.
What you're going to find isyou're going to see people from
all over the world and you'regoing to have a brand new group
of friends.
I've spoken to many who bothteach there and go there, and so
the outreach, the mentoringthat can be done by you and with
(16:30):
you and for you is extremelyvaluable.
It's an extremely goodopportunity for you and I think
so.
I'm happy for you.
I'll be very, very interestedin your take on that experience.
It's a little physical, it's alot of mental.
You'll be able to choose somecourses.
It's a great opportunity, butyou have to walk away for 11
weeks, 10 weeks.
Jonathan Ziders (16:49):
Yeah, yeah, 10 weeks.
Steve Morreale (16:52):
Yeah, and trust me, you're going at a very warm
time of the year having spenttime in Quantico, so I'm happy
for you.
So let's go back, john.
By the way, I haven't said itonce yet, but we're again
talking to Jonathan Zeider.
He's the assistant chief inLancaster, new York, police
Department, and so you've gotthis new job.
(17:15):
You're now the assistant chief.
You are the number two.
The operations, whatever it is,you're responsible for for, and
other people report to you.
But as you stepped in to, let'ssay, the captain's position,
where you had a few lieutenantsthat would report through you,
(17:35):
what was your approach to takingthat job on?
What was your approach with them?
There might have been somejealousy that you got it and
they didn't get it, but yet youstill have to work in this
organization, which you normallywork with people for 20 to 30
years, right?
So what tact did you take tosit people down, to get
everybody sort of aligned and toshare at least what your vision
(17:56):
was, and, I hope, to ask forfeedback from them on how you
could do the job better?
I'm putting words in your mouth, but tell me that conversation,
those discussions.
Jonathan Ziders (18:06):
Yeah, I think one of the benefits it's a pro
and con of the smaller agency iswe do know each other pretty
well, so it's not like I'mwalking into an agency or to an
entirely different group ofpeople that we have no
backgrounds with.
So, because we know each other,it affords us this ability to
communicate a little bitdifferently, but it also creates
(18:26):
roadblocks in some ways,because it's like is this person
my friend right now or are theymy boss?
And things definitely do getlonelier as you start to rise up
.
Steve Morreale (18:38):
um, just because you look lonely to me there,
john yeah go.
Jonathan Ziders (18:42):
Go ahead, but the relationships tend to change
and I prefer to have verysimple conversations when we
need to discuss something thathas to be addressed and I'm not.
(19:03):
But the simplest approach thatI had to take was when I needed
something done, to really tellthem why something had to be
done, and vice versa.
I'm always open to peoplebringing things back to me or
(19:25):
even to give me feedback in anarea where they think I'm wrong.
And frequently it happens whenwe start dealing with some union
issues, and here it's a littlebit different because the
command staff isn't part of theunion but our lieutenants and
patrol officers are part of thesame union, which creates its
own set of issues.
But back to how thoseconversations occur.
(19:50):
The why has always beenimportant to me, and I think
that's what we really try toharp on now is is because it was
something that I experiencedgrowing up and going through the
ranks in this agency was thatfrequently it was just go and do
this.
We really know why we were doingit and that's also to connect
(20:13):
this to kind of the schoolingaspect is understanding and
learning on that end.
How things start to connecthelps me articulate.
Sometimes you know why theconnection is to why they need
to go out there and do trafficcontrol.
It's not because we're writingtickets and we we want to create
(20:33):
revenue.
It's.
It's shocking to me how manypeople think that's what we do.
But it's not it's because wewant to go out there.
It's about public safety, it'sabout changing driving behaviors
.
But if we don't communicatethat to the lieutenants and and
then, by extension, the patrolofficers, they think it's just
(20:54):
us wanting them to justify theirjobs.
And that's a big example of howthe communication between
myself and the lieutenants andthe patrol officers and most of
the conversation now ends upbeing between the lieutenants.
(21:14):
We don't interact that much withthe patrol officers,
unfortunately.
I want to change that, movingforward, because I think having
that access helps the officersfeel a bit more comfortable that
we're not just sitting up herein our offices, because our
offices are actually upstairs insome type of ivory tower where
(21:34):
we're just, you know, handingdown orders from up high.
Steve Morreale (21:40):
I got you.
So I want to ask a new officercomes in and you're trying to
set the table.
I'm sure the chief does too,but what's your advice, what's
your reminder of what the job ofpolicing is?
Because what strikes me is whenyou come out of the academy,
you know, you've had theexperience, I've been in three
(22:00):
or four different academies andit is really getting you ready
for being tactical, beingdefensive.
You know understanding the law,hands-on driving, handcuff,
elements of the law and such,and yet the reality is in your
town and virtually every townUSA.
That's about 10% of the thingswe do putting hands on people
(22:23):
and so much is serving peopleshowing up for serious calls and
stupid calls because we show upat those.
How do you balance that withnew people to kind of set the
framework that this isn't allrun and gun stuff, or am I wrong
?
Jonathan Ziders (22:41):
No, we try to do that.
I specifically try to do that.
But I think in our interviewprocess it starts there and
we're looking to hireindividuals.
They all come in, they want toserve, they want to serve their
community.
So it's very similar statementby each individual.
You know candidate that comesin and it's and it's great.
(23:03):
I think it starts there and wereiterate to them exactly what
you stated, in that most of thisjob isn't doing the law
enforcement related stuff.
It really is about serving, andthat's where we really try to
cut our teeth when we are havingthese conversations with new
officers and specific,specifically when they're giving
(23:27):
us answers before they even gethired.
We actually had interviews lastweek and I know something
specific I stated to several ofthem were like okay, understand
those things that you juststated right now, that if you do
get hired, don't forget thosereasons why you want to do this
(23:47):
job, because you're going tocome in.
We see people, they come in andthey get jaded pretty quickly.
They and they forget why theycame in here and you know, maybe
they forget what they didbefore they walked in the door
and this job has served me verywell.
It's because I wanted it to.
(24:10):
I wanted to make sure that Iwas going out there every time I
had an interaction with thecommunity, that it was a
positive one, and that's what weactually try to reiterate to
the new officers and evencandidates at this point,
because when we're looking athiring, those are the types of
people that we want.
We want the service-orientedindividuals, the tactics and
(24:35):
stuff.
They have to be there.
Steve Morreale (24:37):
You can teach them and you've got to keep them
current, like keeping up withfitness.
But that's not the only part ofthe job, and I know you're
making that clear right.
There's so many other things.
Go out and make friends, don'tmake enemies.
Jonathan Ziders (24:51):
Correct and so much of the.
We have a very supportivecommunity and we want to be able
to maintain that.
So we want officers who aregoing to go out there and
understand their position in thecommunity and how they interact
and how they represent thisagency is going to matter.
It's going to matter to them,it's going to matter to their
(25:13):
career, but it's mostly going tomatter to the individual who
they're interacting with.
Steve Morreale (25:18):
You know it's interesting.
I'm, as soon as you saidsomething, something triggered
in my mind and I talked tosomebody who runs police to
peace is what it's called and Iwant to get her on and her whole
shtick, I think.
Jonathan Ziders (25:32):
I've seen that point made and and it's valuable
because our words matter.
You know, and I'm frequentlyspeaking with officers and you
read reports and things likethat and you have to kind of
have a conversation with themonce in a while when they're
stating things a certain way,that we know what they mean.
(25:53):
But when somebody else goes andreads this, it's going to
potentially mean something elseand labels matter.
So when we're talking aboutpolicing, you know the law
enforcement aspect is there.
But you know for us, for here,the people that are here in this
community, they support uslargely and I think it's because
of some of the work, especiallyin the most recent years, that
(26:15):
we've been doing out there wherewe want officers to be seen and
we try to communicate that tothe officers too.
Then the benefit of that becauseif something goes wrong, even
if some we didn't do anythingwrong, maybe that's everything
that we did on our end waslawful, but it just the lawful
but awful type of stuff where itdoes occur.
(26:40):
But if you've, you've put thosedeposits in and you create that
trust in the community thatthey're going to be the ones
that are there to support youand, by extension, you know the
politicians, then maybe don'thave to necessarily breathe down
our necks as much, because thecommunity says no, no, look,
(27:00):
look, we understand.
This is what had to be done.
There's nothing that was wronghere and we know who our police
agency is.
Even if you have a bad egg,somebody who kind of maybe they
just screw up.
If the trust is there and it'sbeen built over the years, you
can't substitute that and youcan't just make it up in the
(27:24):
short term.
It's something that's developedover a long time.
Steve Morreale (27:28):
I think what you're saying is it really
becomes important.
You, as an assistant chief,your, your colleague, the chief,
has that responsibility to foroutreach to the, to the
community.
And some people will say, right, that's your job, that's not my
job.
My job is to enforce the lawand be out there to make calls,
to take calls, and I would.
I would refute that.
I would say no, no, your job isjust like my job and that's to
(27:50):
have community outreach andpossible explain why.
Why do we blade our targets?
Why do you have your hand nearyour gun?
Sometimes Arrest never willlook good on camera because the
other person rarely wants you totake them and so it's going to
get a little messy for a minute,right, but it's messy until you
put the handcuffs on.
When that's done, it's done.
(28:10):
Let's get you up and out, and Imean I was preaching the choir.
We're talking to John Zitersand he is the assistant chief in
Lancaster Police.
I know that you, John, are anadjunct professor, and talk
about that and tell me whyyou're gravitating to want to
teach and how that sort ofmodifies your approach to
(28:33):
leading.
Jonathan Ziders (28:36):
Okay, Pursuing teaching really came about after
grad school and I had aconversation with the individual
who was running the program atthe time and it also opened the
doors on the teaching side ofthings.
But what I really wanted to dois have the opportunity in front
of students and Hilbert College, where I received my graduate
(28:57):
degree from, is a heavy criminaljustice program and I've been
able to do that prettyeffectively and that's one of my
favorite things to do is to gointo the classroom and provide
some real world examples to thestudents on scenarios that have
occurred in my line of work, oreven just to provide some
insight on something that mayhave happened in another part of
(29:20):
the country.
Steve Morreale (29:21):
You're looking at it from your lens and your
practical lens.
Jonathan Ziders (29:26):
You know and to provide some context for them.
Sometimes because you read,this stuff is put out in the
news and the news does what thenews can as far as putting
information out well, so I think.
Steve Morreale (29:40):
I'm thinking that sometimes you have to
dissect, you have to slice whathappened and and, and you don't
know that somebody came upbehind a police officer and put
their boot between their legsand that's not on camera.
You turn around so you don'tknow that part.
You know.
You don't know that they triedto bite them.
They don't know that they triedto spit on them or they,
(30:00):
whatever they refused and thecamera wasn't on at that moment.
Whatever it is, I I understandthat's that's helpful.
But again, being a teacherlearning how to teach, um, not
just walking in and talkingabout or talking about war
stories, because so many peopledo that, but you take a little
bit of theory and then youinject that you said context.
(30:21):
So you are quickly becoming apracademic, I might add, and
especially as you're working inyour doctorate.
But I think that's very helpfulfor people to understand, for
them to say well, let's look atthis from a whole bunch of
different sides.
You know how does the communityreact and how do the police
react and what were thealternatives.
And so what I'm about to sayhere is you've heard me talking
(30:43):
off a lot about leading withquestions and in a lot of ways
that's what you're doing in theclassroom.
Have you thought about that?
Have you thought about that?
Do you lead with questions inwork?
Do you have people come in andsay what happened, what could we
have done differently?
Have you thought about this?
Is that in your repertoire?
Jonathan Ziders (31:01):
It is not to the extent I want it to be.
I still have to be veryintentional about it.
There are times where I have tobe very self-aware.
When somebody's sitting infront of me that I take a step
back and stop talking.
When somebody's sitting infront of me that I take a step
back and stop talking.
You know and I've become a lotmore aware of that over the
(31:23):
years that this person is infront of me for a reason.
They're trying to tell mesomething.
I need to allow them.
I need to listen, stop and justlisten, and after that I can
ask whatever questions.
I need to develop some morecontext, but just allow them the
time, the space to speakwithout me interjecting it, and
I'll take that as a hereditarycomponent of my personality.
(31:45):
Love my mother, but those arethe that's.
When we have dialogue, it'slike you know, the talking over
one another type of stuff.
Steve Morreale (31:55):
You know, it's funny because, having sat on
many, many interviews and thenspend time in a classroom and
help people in a capstone to say, get ready for an interview, my
favorite saying is answer thequestion and put a period on it,
right.
So let's continue a little bit,because what I was saying is
you know, put a period on it,right.
So let's continue a little bit,because what I was saying is
(32:15):
you know, put a period on it.
It's the same thing and that'san interesting point that you
bring.
You know, active listeningbecomes so important in this job
, especially as you rise, sothat people walking into your
office have the feeling thatthey are being heard and they
have the ability to come in hereand talk with you.
And setting to me, setting up anorganization and policing is
(32:39):
very bad at this, and it hasbeen in the past that we're not
looking for you at the linelevel to tell us what to do, and
that's pure bullshit, I have tosay, because they know what's
going on.
They're there every day and ifwe're willing to ask what's
going on, what do you think isdifferent?
What do you think is missing,what might we do to improve, or
(33:01):
what are the problems out therethat we should be paying
attention to what's your take onit, and by sitting and asking
people that and making them feelthat they can come in if they
identify a problem, rather thansay after the fact, I knew that
was going to happen, you knowwell, if you knew what was going
to happen, why didn't you bringit to our attention?
I'm seeing you shake your headwith a little smirk.
So what are you thinking?
Jonathan Ziders (33:23):
No, that's exactly right, and we have a
good set of, especiallylieutenants and even some
officers who are willing to comeup and actually start those
conversations.
I'll be the first one to admitright now that the time I've
spent in these positions hasseparated me enough from the
road that I don't necessarilyknow what's going on there day
(33:44):
in and day out and what theyneed from us.
You know we need to give themthe tools to do what they need
to do and frequently, sometimesit falls on that and sometimes
it's it's personnel stuff daysoff.
You know we need more people,this and that.
Some of that we can control inthe short term, some we can.
We can look at long term, butcreating a space for them to
(34:05):
walk in and say, hey, this isgoing on, we, we need this piece
of equipment to help us do ourjob a little bit better, this is
going on with this individual.
We've had some stuff occurwithin the last year or so where
some people were, some officerswere struggling with some
things.
There were some officers werestruggling with some things and
(34:31):
it was brought to our attentionand we would never have known,
even if we were down therewalking around and you know,
having Kind of the simpleconversations in passing with
people, that the doors are openfor them to come in and explain.
Hey, I have these concerns,whether it's about another
officer or again some equipment,or even some of the laws that
(34:52):
are coming, that have beencoming to pass.
You know in New York State thathow do we actually address this
?
How should we approach thissituation?
We have a local First Amendmentauditor that over the last
couple of years has gained someofficers attention and they
needed to know, number one, thatwe have their back.
(35:14):
But, hey, if this happens, howdo you think we should actually
handle this?
and now, now we all kind of knowwhere that sits, but the door
is still open that when they seesomething, and that is, you
have to create a, a you said azone or a comfort and a
recognition that you are willingto listen right, and that's an
(35:37):
important element of leading, Ithink I think it goes in another
example that I'll give herewith the current chief and
myself and this was stillcaptain at the time but we were
dealing with some disciplinarythings and policy violations and
we were looking at handling itin a certain way and one of the
(35:57):
lieutenants came in to my officeand said hey, I, just just so
you know like you're looking atdoing this and this guy is a
super well-respected individualand both the chief and I were
new, newer in our positions Like, look, if you try to, if you're
going to do this, it's not,it's going to look like you're
(36:19):
dropping the hammer just to makea point in the level of
discipline and the violationdoesn't really reach what you
you're looking at doing.
We had a discussion on why thatmight be.
I offered my position, heoffered his position and at the
end of the day I understoodwhere they're coming from and
(36:42):
had a conversation with thechief and this is now the chief
willing to listen to what I haveto say.
Conversation with the chief andthis is now the chief willing
to listen to what I have to say,and ultimately we actually
ended up finding some middleground between where we wanted
to go with it and what ourintentions were and why we were
taking this, making this action,and where the lieutenant who
came up to speak to us wascoming from and how it was going
(37:04):
to positively or negativelyaffect the entire force.
You know everybody that elsewas down there and how it was
going to positively ornegatively affect the entire
force.
Steve Morreale (37:11):
Everybody that else was down there and how it
might be perceived.
Well, it sounds to me like ifhe was suggesting if you take
punitive action, seriouspunitive action, it is going to
backfire in many ways becauseother people are going to say
unfair and they're going to kindof rail against you, and so I'm
always pushing the idea ofwhenever possible.
You know, there are someegregious violations, I
understand, and they deservesome serious sanctions, but so
(37:34):
many of the things that peopledo can be handled correctively,
not punitively, right, andthat's a difference.
In other words, we're all human, we all make mistakes.
You know you said a swear atone point in time, all right,
human, we all make mistakes.
You know you said a swear atone point in time, all right,
and escalating.
And I think what you justdemonstrated, even the chief,
was the willingness to listen tosomeone and the comfort of
(37:56):
somebody coming forward and saybefore you do this, have you
thought about this?
Jonathan Ziders (38:03):
progressive discipline.
Steve Morreale (38:03):
Thank you, I was struggling for that, but you're
right and that's exactly it.
Jonathan Ziders (38:09):
And the thing is I know, from my perspective,
I don't.
I don't want my ego to get inthe way.
I want to get it right and ifthat means that I have to
swallow some pride, I'm going todo that because, ultimately, I
know myself and the chief wewant to get it right At the end
(38:32):
of the day.
To us, that, ultimately, iswhat matters, and a lot of our
discipline that we I won't callit discipline, because when
individuals do something wrong,it is more about what is there
to learn from this, and it's noteven just about learning from
(39:00):
having them learn, becausethere's something that, when it
occurs, maybe there's a cultureissue that we need to pay a
little bit more attention to andmake some adjustments in how we
are looking at things, andmaybe we need to make some
adjustments to policy.
Steve Morreale (39:15):
I think that's good, and a couple of things
that I wrote down is howimportant reflection is as a
leader to sit back and say howdid I do?
Could I have handled itdifferently?
How can I grow from this?
How can I make some?
How did I do?
Could I have handled itdifferently?
How can I grow from this?
How can I make some?
How can I correct some of themistakes?
And then sometimes you're goingto have to go back and kind of
eat crow and be humble and sayyou know, lieutenant John, steve
(39:37):
, I'm sorry, you know I Ioverstepped and I was a little
bit irritated that day.
I let my emotions get the bestof me and I hope you'll forgive
me and I've certainly had to dothat.
But I think what we're talkingabout and dancing around is a
little bit is is wheneverpossible.
Why?
aren't we using this asteachable moments?
Right, these aren't felonieswhen somebody doesn't wear a hat
(39:59):
or whatever the you know,whatever the complaint is, or
somebody leave something out ofa report unless it was done
purposefully, whatever thatmight be.
I think that's important.
What do you see yourself as youcontinue in this position?
What are you learning along theway?
(40:21):
Who do you lean on, potentiallyoutside of the organization?
As a mentor to run something by, and I don't need a name, but
do you have some?
Jonathan Ziders (40:30):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean.
There's a couple other localofficers, one specific captain
who I know is willing to alwayspick up the phone and listen to
what I have to say or somefeedback, and they're very
knowledgeable and we have asimilar mindset on some things.
They're very knowledgeable andwe have a similar mindset on
some things, but also enough ofa difference for them to provide
(40:51):
some honest critique andfeedback on, maybe, where I'm
coming from, if I'm wrong, I'mwrong, I have believe it or not?
It's a strange thing for me tosay this, but I have a good
relationship with my ex-wife aswell and you know, we spent a
lot of time together and sheknows me pretty well, but she's
also still.
She's not afraid to put me inmy place and obviously we're not
(41:15):
married anymore, but therelationship we were able to
maintain a friendship, raise ourdaughter together, and it was
because I still respected her asa person and she was able to
respect me as a person, andthat's how I tend to approach
all of my relationships.
You know, I don't have a lot ofenemies.
For that reason, and even if Idon't like somebody, I'm
(41:39):
respectful, I have aconversation with them.
Steve Morreale (41:42):
And are you running meetings regularly?
Jonathan Ziders (41:45):
So we don't run them enough.
We've had those conversations.
We probably need to do themquarterly, ideally maybe more,
but the size of our agency andcoordinating that gets a little
complicated.
So right now we do them twice ayear.
We probably need to do themfour times a year, quarterly, to
(42:07):
really be able to have moredirect lines of communication,
because that's where the rubbermeets the road as far as I'm
concerned.
We can.
Email serves its purpose, butit's not great, especially when
you really need to have theconversations, because we're
going to have a supervisormeeting next week and sometimes
(42:29):
these supervisor meetings wehave scheduled for two hours and
they run for four, and it'sbecause there's been such a gap
in time and everybody wants tohave their voice and their
moment and to discuss what'sbeen on their mind, and so we
don't run them enough, is myresponse.
Steve Morreale (42:49):
Do you see on your list of things to do with
the chief things to makeimprovements?
I don't.
I'm shy away from the work theword reform because of the way
it's been thrown at us, but, but, but is, is there room for
improvement?
Are there things you're workingon?
Are there things you're seeingoutside?
You were talking aboutco-response a bit and the
(43:11):
importance of that.
I presume that thatconversation we had before I
started taping about co-responsethe value, the experience of
co-response.
Obviously the cost, but doesthat imply that there are more
emotionally disturbed or mentalhealth related cases that you're
(43:31):
going on and your officers arenot clinicians?
Jonathan Ziders (43:37):
Correct, kind of tie all this in together.
Some of the things we'relooking to improve related to
the co-response aspect is asI've gone through the schooling,
the data component has becomemore prominent for me.
So one of the things I ended updoing was looking at our in New
York state.
It's mental health law 941.
I wanted to look at thosenumber of calls.
(43:58):
How many were labeled mentalper se and then how many of
those were like how many more ofthose calls were hidden in the
CAD data Right?
And sure enough, I starteddigging and I didn't even go
beyond welfare check, I juststarted looking at welfare check
(44:20):
and the number was three timesthe number that were actually so
it's underreporting, but notnecessarily on purpose.
No not at all.
Steve Morreale (44:32):
But yourself as an agency that might scare the
hell out of you if you get thereal numbers to say you know.
In these circumstances, we'dlike you to code it like this so
that we can better understandwhat kinds of calls are driven
in this direction Is that fair?
Jonathan Ziders (44:48):
Absolutely Right.
So that's a good example of thetypes of things that we are
looking at improving.
Let me backtrack here.
So the co-responder aspect ofit really came to fruition
because we started looking atthose numbers and pulling that
out and knowing there are someother local agencies that have
co-responders and the types ofnumbers that they have, and our
(45:13):
numbers really weren't that faroff to where we could actually
justify having a clinician onboard with us you know, I've
seen.
Steve Morreale (45:22):
I've seen some agencies.
You're a smaller agency, butI've seen all the agencies that
regionalize that.
That you know they.
They cobble together a littlemoney from you and from another
department.
Some agencies you're a smalleragency, but I've seen all the
agencies that regionalize that.
That you know they cobbletogether a little money from you
and from another department,another department, and you get
one or two and they're basicallyshared.
Right, it's a five-day week.
I'm going to be two days withyou, one day with you and two
days with you, and if you needme, I'm nearby and we'll
(45:43):
transport them over.
So I so, whether or not that'ssomething you've already heard
about, it's something that'sbeing used here in New England
all of the time now and it'srelevant news.
But it's certainly needed.
And what has started to happenin other organizations and
officers that I've spoken to isthat if you've got the right
clinician, it's like having theright doctor, but if you've got
(46:05):
the right clinician, you knowthat clinician can come in and
when the respect uh comes in forthat clinician and the way they
handle calls, the officersometimes retracts and is there
to provide some safety.
But there's a there's abyproduct of learning the way
that clinician approaches thatsituation and sometimes, when
(46:26):
they're not there the theclinician isn't there it
modifies the behavior of theofficer I was going to say the
agent but the officer and that'sa pretty significant byproduct.
So I know you're for it, I knowyou're looking at it, I
guarantee you'll be talkingabout it down at the National
Academy and that may be one ofyour projects too.
(46:46):
That could be of some value.
We need to wind down, but Iwant to ask you a few more
questions In the instant.
What are the modifications thatyou have had to make moving into
this position so that you'renot and because I know that we
call it the Peter Principle, orI don't, but it's called the
Peter Principle when you becomean assistant chief you become a
(47:10):
captain, but you're much morecomfortable as lieutenant and
you don't always rise to thatposition.
You don't let the person riseto their position as a new
assistant in a position you'venever had at the department.
How have you approached thisnew job, this new responsibility
, sort of your jobclassification and description.
(47:32):
I still am.
What are you smirking at me for?
Jonathan Ziders (47:37):
No, I mean I'm still making that adjustment.
So we actually transitioned oneof my previous captain's
position into this.
So the transition is somewhatnatural, but it's still.
There's a discomfort.
That is there.
Steve Morreale (47:51):
Knowing number one.
You're the test baby.
Jonathan Ziders (47:54):
Yes, and the direct number two yeah, and
knowing that the responsibilityis there, now I actually I have
two captains underneath me,which is, you know, the chief
was traditionally just had thecaptains underneath him, so now
I have another coupleindividuals that I don't like to
(48:16):
say.
Answer.
Steve Morreale (48:17):
They report to you.
Jonathan Ziders (48:18):
They report to you, correct, that's probably
the best way of putting it.
And again, so there's somediscomfort there.
I'm still trying to get my legsunderneath me a little bit as
far as that goes, but I thinkthe best way that I'm
approaching this right now ismaking sure that, now that I'm
(48:38):
in between the chief and the twocaptains that I, now that I'm
in between the chief and the twocaptains that I maintain I am
going to be the bridge betweenyou know what they're doing,
(49:00):
what's going on with the chief,and how that communication
between the four of us there'sfour of us right now actually
plays out how it flows Right.
Correct Cause, because there'ssome stuff that ultimately and I
think this is the importantpart of my position the chief
doesn't have to deal with, heshouldn't have to deal with.
He's got other stuff.
Steve Morreale (49:15):
Yeah, he could be out with more outward looking
, correct, okay?
Jonathan Ziders (49:19):
and my place is to fill that gap.
He needs to know the thingsthat that are important and that
he needs to know about.
But a lot of stuff it can stopwith me and I can manage it from
my perspective, whether it bedirectly through lieutenants or
if it comes through the captains.
And again, our doors are alwaysopen here because we are a
(49:41):
smaller agency, so officers kindof know that they can pop in,
sit down, have a conversationwith us if need be.
So that's probably the mostimportant adjustment that I've
made just in the short term here, because it's really only kind
of been a month right now is tomake sure that I'm just I'm
feeling my role as the assistantchief, as the know, the chief
(50:08):
and the captain.
So when you leave for 10 weeks.
Steve Morreale (50:12):
Will there be an acting in your, in your
position?
Jonathan Ziders (50:16):
Believe it or not.
Steve Morreale (50:16):
No, I think they're just largely You're
reverting back to the way it was.
Jonathan Ziders (50:23):
We're just going to yes, we're just going
to revert back.
Especially, it's kind of aneasy thing because it hasn't
just hasn't been in place fortoo long.
I got, they knew it was, theyknew it was coming, and the the
patrol captain right now she hasa good handle on things.
She's doing a fantastic job.
The detective captain he's beenin his position for quite a
while so he knows what's goingon on his end.
(50:45):
So I'm still, gonna believe itor not, my laptop is coming with
me and there's a couple smallthings that I'm probably still
going to manage when I'm downthere, because I'll have the
ability to, but it won't be muchto be you know one or two hours
, yeah, but I'm afraid you'regoing to be in the boardroom a
lot down there.
Steve Morreale (51:02):
My friend, you know what the boardroom is right
.
Jonathan Ziders (51:05):
Yeah.
Steve Morreale (51:05):
Those are the cheap beers with all the FBI.
Jonathan Ziders (51:08):
And I have heard.
Steve Morreale (51:11):
Well, that's good.
So, listen, I wish you goodluck.
We've been talking to JohnZyders and he's the assistant
chief in Lancaster, on his wayto the national academy in the
next month.
He is new with the assistantchief, I really appreciate it
Working towards yourdissertation, which is a big
deal, and if I can help you, youknow I certainly will.
(51:32):
But I want to thank you forsharing, and I want to thank you
for being so both, I'd say,humble, but so forthright about
the trepidation you have as youcome into a new job.
You want to fulfill it rightand you want to listen better.
So I mean, it's just greatstuff to be able to talk to.
(51:54):
You know, I think this, john,and I guess I you'll have the
last word, but as you rise toleadership positions, in my
estimation the position that youhave now attained is yours and
through your hard work.
But to me, our job as leadersis to not worry about ourselves
anymore but to develop others sothat the organization is
(52:16):
sustained and so that, as theystep up, that they can put their
little spin on improving theagency.
What do you, what do you thinkof that?
Jonathan Ziders (52:25):
I think you're spot on and it's it's a thing
(52:49):
that really has to be focused on.
What do you're doing?
That you're only really, eventhough you're doing it in a way
because you want to improve andbe better, you're still thinking
about yourself and hopefully,when you're thinking about
yourself, you know you'redeveloping that so you can
contribute and help and developothers in the agency and make
sure that they have their needsmet.
(53:09):
But again, it takes intentionand I think the intention comes
from the self-awareness andbeing humble and remembering
where we ultimately come from,understanding that there are
officers out there that mightwant to develop into the type of
(53:31):
person maybe not that you are,but pursue the position that
you're sitting in Right and puttheir spin on it, not
necessarily being a carbon copyof you, correct?
Correct, which is kind of what Idid when I pursued this
position.
The previous captain had beenhere for a long time and I
wanted to walk in and I had myown kind of plan of how I was
(53:52):
going to address it, and I don'tdo things just like he did and
I think he was a great guy.
But there was a transition andI think it's been welcomed and I
hope to make sure that theexample that I set opens the
doors for others to see whatthey can obtain in their careers
(54:15):
, cause I certainly did not seethat when I entered law
enforcement.
So, you know, leadership to meis really always been about
character, and now you can havebad character, I suppose, and
still be.
You know, leadership to me hasreally always been about
character.
And now you can have badcharacter, I suppose, and still
be a leader.
There's all kinds of examplesof that throughout history.
But when I say this, I don'tknow if I go to provide the best
(54:39):
context for it, but it's aboutcharacter.
But it's because it's about whoyou are and not so much about
what you do.
And when I mean that.
Steve Morreale (54:51):
I'll tell you what I think you're meaning is
you know you have to beauthentic.
It can't be fake.
It can't be fake.
You know, you are you.
You're still developing.
Right, I'm still developing.
I'll say I've been teachingleadership for probably 35 years
.
I constantly make mistakes andfine tune and retune and revise
and learn from others and learnfrom reading, and sometimes it's
(55:15):
learning through trial anderror that didn't work and I
think if we have that mindset,it allows us again to be candid
with people, to have humilityand realize what our
shortcomings are, and to be inwith people to have humility and
realize you know what ourshortcomings are and to be in a
constant state of learning.
Your statement I think so.
Jonathan Ziders (55:35):
Yeah, absolutely, I couldn't really
add more to it, that's great.
Steve Morreale (55:40):
so thank you so much.
I I do mean that I wish you thebest of luck, uh, both in this
position and in your opportunityto be again one of the first to
go to the National Academy foryour organization, and I know
you're going to make friends andcontacts that will be lifelong,
and I wish you the best of luck.
Jonathan Ziders (56:02):
Look, I appreciate you, I appreciate the
podcast and you know this wasan amazing opportunity.
I certainly could not imaginesitting here even several years
ago, but again, you do amazingwork.
I can't wait to hear more.
Steve Morreale (56:17):
That's great.
Thank you so much.
We've been talking, I've beentalking to Assistant Chief
Jonathan Zyders up at theLancaster New York Police
Department and I thank you.
Thanks for listening.
That's another episode on thebooks and I want to thank you
for listening.
I continue to say and I'mamazed that I'm hearing from
(56:37):
people from all over the world89 countries are listening,
which just blows my mind.
More importantly, keep learning, stay safe, keep your people
safe.
Intro/Outro (57:01):
Hav e a good day.
Thanks for listening to TheCopDoc Podcast with Dr.
Steve Morreale from WorcesterState University.
Please tune into The CopDocpodcast for regular episodes of
interviews with thought leadersin policing.
Welcome to the CopDoc Podcast.
This podcast explores policeleadership issues and innovative
ideas.
The CopDoc shares thoughts andideas as he talks with leaders
in policing communities,academia and other government
agencies.
And now please join Dr.
(00:20):
Steve Morreale and industrythought leaders as they share
their insights and experience onThe Cop Doc Podcast.
Steve Morreale (00:28):
Hey everybody, Steve Morreale coming to you
again from Boston and you'relistening to another episode of
the Cop Doc Podcast.
Today we go to Lake Erie, nearthe Canadian border, in Buffalo,
to Lancaster, new York, and andwe have assistant chief
Jonathan Ziders here.
How are you, John?
Jonathan Ziders (00:48):
I'm great, Steve, how are you?
I'm super glad to be here.
Steve Morreale (00:51):
I'm glad.
Well you know I'm thinking isthat you're hearing, that you're
hearing the intro.
It must be weird for you to one, it must be.
So let me explain to theaudience.
So John is one of the firstguys who reached out to me.
I think at the time we weresergeant or lieutenant.
Jonathan Ziders (01:07):
Lieutenant we have.
A lieutenant is actually thefirst line supervisor here.
Steve Morreale (01:12):
Oh, okay, so you were a lieutenant.
You reached out to me and Iactually got on a phone call and
we started to talk and we'veconnected and one of the things
you can certainly say that youwere saying is you're getting
some things out of The CopDocPodcast and here you are sitting
, I'm watching you, you'resitting, you're hearing the
intro and I saw a little smirk.
So tell me how that felt.
For a moment, I tell you.
Jonathan Ziders (01:33):
I'll tell you the truth.
I t was wild.
I don't know if I've listenedto every single podcast, but
easily probably 90% of them, andsometimes just because things
got lost in the mix but be ableto sit here, listen to the intro
and understand that I'm face toface with you, so to speak, it
is an honor and I reallyappreciate everything the
(01:54):
podcast has done for me.
I think at one point we had aconversation on the phone and
I'm like hey, you, actually thepodcast kind of talks me off the
ledge sometimes.
I mean that kind of in a goodway, because sometimes you get
in these environments andagencies can be very insular.
(02:15):
You know, you get sucked intoyour own little world here, and
what your podcast has offeredCopDoc Podcast has offered me is
that perspective from all overthe world really I mean the
individuals that you've hadconversations with, from
overseas and obviously withinthis country as well has just
(02:35):
really opened my perspective towhat else is out there, because
you know Western New York it'salmost like a little island.
Steve Morreale (02:43):
Sometimes it is, it seems almost like a little
island sometimes it is.
Jonathan Ziders (02:46):
It seems like times sometimes stand still and
again, ultimately, perspectivesand just the insight that so
many of your guests and youyourself offer is something that
I hadn't been exposed topreviously.
Yourself offer is somethingthat I hadn't been exposed to
previously, and now for severalyears, I regularly chime in and
(03:09):
make sure that I'm listening, soI appreciate that.
Steve Morreale (03:12):
All right.
So enough of that.
Thank you very much, but I'm soglad to have somebody who was a
listener.
A couple of things.
I'm going to take a littlecredit, and it's certainly
vicarious credit, but for you tohave moved up as you have
during your career is amazing tome and that's one of the
reasons I reached back out toyou, and I know that you are now
enrolled at my alma mater, NovaSoutheastern University, down
(03:35):
in Fort Lauderdale, for a PhD,and I'll be curious to know how
that is changing your mindsetand how you're looking to
implement things, how you'rechanging the way.
Maybe you were treated as youcame up with some old-time
leaders Not that they weren'tgood leaders, but they were
different, and you know that I'mseeing your head shake.
But let's get started A littlelate in this, but let's get
(03:57):
started with you.
Where you are Lancaster, youare an assistant chief how you
got into policing I know youwere in the park police, but
let's go back in history beforewe get going.
Jonathan Ziders (04:09):
Yeah, interesting with me.
I never wanted to be a cop.
I actually wanted to be afirefighter since I was a little
kid and as I got older thatcontinued to be the case.
But eventually, throughconversations with some friends
and some different experiences,I was like, hey, you would be a
great police officer.
And there's a couple ofdifferent stories and I'll just
(04:29):
speak to one briefly.
I was almost involved in anaccident and I was able to avoid
it, but the individual wenthead-on with a car behind me, so
I pulled off to the side andthe individuals ended up being
okay.
But this gentleman went up tothe individual, caused the
accident and basically started aconfrontation with them and I
(04:52):
was, you know.
I got out, confronted both ofthem, had this individual go
stand off to the side, wait forthe police to show up, try to
take care of what was going onwith the individual inside the
car, tried to take care of whatwas going on with the individual
inside the car and after thatcall.
This individual who had createdthe confrontation was like hey,
have you ever thought aboutbeing a police officer?
Steve Morreale (05:14):
This is a guy that was just pissed off a
minute ago.
Jonathan Ziders (05:17):
Yes, he was a retired cop.
Oh no, kidding, he's like theway you handled that was pretty
much perfect.
You took control.
I had some friends that knew me, that knew my demeanor and how
I looked at things and how Ihandled myself and how I carried
(05:38):
myself.
The first police exam I tookwas a combination of state parks
and the Erie County police examout here.
So same same exam basically,and each one hires from from
that.
So I got the call from stateparks first, went through their
process, which is is very indepth.
Steve Morreale (06:00):
We'll say so.
That took some time and timeconsuming.
Jonathan Ziders (06:03):
So eventually I was actually hired by them and
started the academy in 2005.
Graduated in 2006.
Interestingly, in the academy Iended up with the PT award.
I'm a big fitness guy, I lovestaying in shape and to me it's
just important for lawenforcement and it was a goal of
mine from before I even started.
(06:24):
And I actually received aleadership award in the academy
too and I'm saying this becauseI don't want to, I don't
necessarily like talking aboutaccolades, yeah, but it's.
It's important because when Ilook back to where I am now, it
still is unbelievable to me.
And it was just all of thesethings kind of pieced together
throughout my career.
(06:44):
And it kind of started therebecause that leadership award
was something that was voted onby my peers.
It had nothing to do with theinstructors of the academy, it
was by my peers and through thatI actually had to write a
speech, give the speech atgraduation, and a bunch of
(07:06):
buddies in the Academy mentionedthat I could hold the tune.
I would not say I'm a greatsinger, but I can hold the tune
and I also ended up having tosing the national anthem at
graduation.
I'm not necessarily an outgoingindividual slightly more
introverted.
So that was the Academyexperiences.
(07:26):
I ended up actually working inNew York City for a year with
New York State Parks, which waseye-opening.
It gave me a perspective on howa different section of not only
a state but just New York Cityis its own microcosm.
You can almost call it amacrocosm because it's so large
(07:48):
and the perspectives andexperiences of individuals that
lived there was vastly differentfrom what I had experienced my
entire life.
There was no doubt that my firstday on FTO that I was driving
around in some of the citystreets, day on FTO that I was
driving around in some of thecity streets, my eyes probably
(08:10):
bugging out of my head, becauseit was just overwhelming
Definitely different from whereI came from.
But after that, the day I wastransferred back to Western New
York, I was going to end upworking in Niagara Falls.
I ended up getting a phone callfrom Lancaster literally the
day that I arrived home fromgetting transferred from New
(08:30):
York City back to Niagara Fallsand they had a spot open.
So I came interviewed here asimpler process because I was
already a certified policeofficer and I was actually on
the list as well.
So it was a simple process.
Still had to go through aninterview and all the rest of
the process down at the countyLancaster brought me on board,
and that was in 2007.
(08:51):
So I've been with Lancastersince then.
You've been probably see.
Steve Morreale (08:56):
you were an officer, you were sergeant,
lieutenant and you are now, inessence, the number two, correct
?
Jonathan Ziders (09:06):
So 2015, I made lieutenant that's first line
here and then 2020, I became anadmin lieutenant, and then 2023,
captain and last month,assistant chief.
And the assistant chief'sposition is brand new, it had
never existed here before and wecan get into kind of how that
(09:29):
transpired and I think how myrelationship with the chief
opened in some of theconversations that he had with
some other chiefs in the area,shined a light on the benefit of
having a position.
But it was was I think a lot ofit was driven by my approach to
(09:50):
two things and I'll get intointo that, as we probably have.
Steve Morreale (09:55):
So let me ask you some questions.
So as you rise, as you go fromsergeant to lieutenant to
captain, how did you have tofind yourself changing as your
job and scope broadened?
Jonathan Ziders (10:12):
So really it became for me.
I was forced to come out of myshell.
A big part of me has alwaysbeen I've always respected other
people.
I've always held myselfaccountable in a lot of ways as
I moved through the ranks andhad to address people
(10:33):
differently.
I had to learn how to speak andcommunicate differently,
because I started to realizethat how I thought I should be
wasn't going to work, realizedthat how I thought I should be
wasn't going to work.
I had some examples from someother supervisors that I didn't
really care for, so I opted tochange that communication.
(10:55):
One example I'll tell you thismuch.
So I became a lieutenant.
There was another lieutenant whowas working and I decided that
the simplest way for me tocommunicate was through email.
As we all know, at this pointit's probably one of the worst
ways to communicate, especiallyif you just want to narrow
things down and speak directlyto either an individual or small
(11:17):
group of people.
I did this kind of as a blanketstatement, and one lieutenant
came at me you don't tell mewhat to do.
This wasn't meant for me.
You need to talk to themdirectly.
And he lieutenant came at meyou don't tell me what to do.
This wasn't meant for me.
You need to talk to themdirectly.
And he kind of put me in myplace.
All right, you know what?
I'm never going to do thisagain.
So at that point on it had tobecome a lot more direct
communication with individuals.
But it was also generally aconversation.
(11:39):
I'm not a yeller, I'm not ayeller, so I had to make sure
that if I was having thisconversation, that I held firm,
I maintained respect, but thatperson knew that I was serious
about what I was speaking about,and that was early on.
(12:01):
Some of the bigger adjustmentsI had to make was really just
the communication aspect of it.
Moving forward.
The relationships that broughtme to where I'm at now, in this
position, were developed throughthat process of communication,
and I'm probably going to harpon the communication aspect of
(12:23):
it because it's something that Istill feel short on.
Steve Morreale (12:26):
Yeah.
Jonathan Ziders (12:27):
That I'm still developing, yeah.
Steve Morreale (12:28):
So let me ask, let me ask as you continue.
You know you're in the, you'rein the shadows of Buffalo,
you're on the, you're on theshores of Lake Erie, pretty
close.
Yeah, all right, so it's asmall town village and you've
got a small organization.
(12:49):
So you said something a littlebit ago and that is that you can
be almost in a cocoon up there,and so how do you find outside
ideas beyond the podcast?
Do you belong now to chiefsassociation, iacp or any of that
that has helped you expand yourhorizon, expand your world view
(13:13):
?
Uh, to help you, you know, takethe small agency and make sure
that you're doing things.
Jonathan Ziders (13:18):
The agency is doing things that are sort of
current and up to date so I'm aa member of the IACP also, the
American Society ofEvidence-Based Policing.
Next year I actually want toget to their conference.
Steve Morreale (13:31):
Yeah, I was there this year and it was worth
it, so I think you'll enjoy it.
Jonathan Ziders (13:34):
I do have an intention there.
Yeah, I do read.
Audiobooks are often my go-tojust because they're convenient,
but I do read several.
I to tell you the truth, it'sdifficult for me to name very
specific leadership books thatI've enjoyed.
One of the more recent ones wasI trust and inspire by.
Steve Morreale (13:56):
Oh, you got to read choosing to lead my friend,
the one I just wrote.
Jonathan Ziders (14:00):
That is on my list.
Obviously, it would be aseamless.
I could certainly throw that atyou.
Intro/Outro (14:09):
I haven't gotten there yet, but it's going to
happen.
Jonathan Ziders (14:11):
A lot of Simon Sinek's work I follow them on
LinkedIn, the Curve and a lot ofthe information that they put
out is just fantastic.
Put out is just fantasticbecause the information is
(14:32):
presented in such a way that,like you, don't get frequently
and it's a shame that we don't,but we don't get it often in.
On my end of things in policingright now, there are there's
leadership courses people canget sent to and I feeling you
know some of you know some ofthe work that you do as well is
accessible out there, but youreally have to go seek it out.
Steve Morreale (14:52):
Well, wait a minute, didn't you tell me
you're going somewhere prettysoon, to which national?
Oh yes, that's kind ofimportant, right.
So that's another.
Jonathan Ziders (15:03):
Yes, so that's another aspect of this.
Right, we haven't had anybodygo to the National Academy in
over 30 years and I had aconversation with at the time we
were both lieutenants.
We were at a local FBI leadertraining that was being held
here and the FBI will come in,and they kind of gave their
(15:26):
narrative on what the FBINational Academy is and I'm like
man, that'd be fantastic to goto.
And this was 2018.
And when the chief became thechief at a local chief's meeting
, the FBI came in again andpresented the same thing and
again he brought it back andsaid hey, do you still want to
(15:47):
do this?
I'm going to ask the town boardif we can send you.
And that's exactly what he did.
And now I will be heading thereat the end of this month and I
can't wait for what I'mpresented with there that I can
bring back here and hopefullyshare with everybody else and
present it in such a way that wecan continue to send people
(16:09):
when at all.
Steve Morreale (16:10):
You know, yeah, so.
So you don't keep it foryourself, but you identify new
leaders and send it.
What you're going to find isyou're going to see people from
all over the world and you'regoing to have a brand new group
of friends.
I've spoken to many who bothteach there and go there, and so
the outreach, the mentoringthat can be done by you and with
(16:30):
you and for you is extremelyvaluable.
It's an extremely goodopportunity for you and I think
so.
I'm happy for you.
I'll be very, very interestedin your take on that experience.
It's a little physical, it's alot of mental.
You'll be able to choose somecourses.
It's a great opportunity, butyou have to walk away for 11
weeks, 10 weeks.
Jonathan Ziders (16:49):
Yeah, yeah, 10 weeks.
Steve Morreale (16:52):
Yeah, and trust me, you're going at a very warm
time of the year having spenttime in Quantico, so I'm happy
for you.
So let's go back, john.
By the way, I haven't said itonce yet, but we're again
talking to Jonathan Zeider.
He's the assistant chief inLancaster, new York, police
Department, and so you've gotthis new job.
(17:15):
You're now the assistant chief.
You are the number two.
The operations, whatever it is,you're responsible for for, and
other people report to you.
But as you stepped in to, let'ssay, the captain's position,
where you had a few lieutenantsthat would report through you,
(17:35):
what was your approach to takingthat job on?
What was your approach with them?
There might have been somejealousy that you got it and
they didn't get it, but yet youstill have to work in this
organization, which you normallywork with people for 20 to 30
years, right?
So what tact did you take tosit people down, to get
everybody sort of aligned and toshare at least what your vision
(17:56):
was, and, I hope, to ask forfeedback from them on how you
could do the job better?
I'm putting words in your mouth, but tell me that conversation,
those discussions.
Jonathan Ziders (18:06):
Yeah, I think one of the benefits it's a pro
and con of the smaller agency iswe do know each other pretty
well, so it's not like I'mwalking into an agency or to an
entirely different group ofpeople that we have no
backgrounds with.
So, because we know each other,it affords us this ability to
communicate a little bitdifferently, but it also creates
(18:26):
roadblocks in some ways,because it's like is this person
my friend right now or are theymy boss?
And things definitely do getlonelier as you start to rise up
.
Steve Morreale (18:38):
um, just because you look lonely to me there,
john yeah go.
Jonathan Ziders (18:42):
Go ahead, but the relationships tend to change
and I prefer to have verysimple conversations when we
need to discuss something thathas to be addressed and I'm not.
(19:03):
But the simplest approach thatI had to take was when I needed
something done, to really tellthem why something had to be
done, and vice versa.
I'm always open to peoplebringing things back to me or
(19:25):
even to give me feedback in anarea where they think I'm wrong.
And frequently it happens whenwe start dealing with some union
issues, and here it's a littlebit different because the
command staff isn't part of theunion but our lieutenants and
patrol officers are part of thesame union, which creates its
own set of issues.
But back to how thoseconversations occur.
(19:50):
The why has always beenimportant to me, and I think
that's what we really try toharp on now is is because it was
something that I experiencedgrowing up and going through the
ranks in this agency was thatfrequently it was just go and do
this.
We really know why we were doingit and that's also to connect
(20:13):
this to kind of the schoolingaspect is understanding and
learning on that end.
How things start to connecthelps me articulate.
Sometimes you know why theconnection is to why they need
to go out there and do trafficcontrol.
It's not because we're writingtickets and we we want to create
(20:33):
revenue.
It's.
It's shocking to me how manypeople think that's what we do.
But it's not it's because wewant to go out there.
It's about public safety, it'sabout changing driving behaviors
.
But if we don't communicatethat to the lieutenants and and
then, by extension, the patrolofficers, they think it's just
(20:54):
us wanting them to justify theirjobs.
And that's a big example of howthe communication between
myself and the lieutenants andthe patrol officers and most of
the conversation now ends upbeing between the lieutenants.
(21:14):
We don't interact that much withthe patrol officers,
unfortunately.
I want to change that, movingforward, because I think having
that access helps the officersfeel a bit more comfortable that
we're not just sitting up herein our offices, because our
offices are actually upstairs insome type of ivory tower where
(21:34):
we're just, you know, handingdown orders from up high.
Steve Morreale (21:40):
I got you.
So I want to ask a new officercomes in and you're trying to
set the table.
I'm sure the chief does too,but what's your advice, what's
your reminder of what the job ofpolicing is?
Because what strikes me is whenyou come out of the academy,
you know, you've had theexperience, I've been in three
(22:00):
or four different academies andit is really getting you ready
for being tactical, beingdefensive.
You know understanding the law,hands-on driving, handcuff,
elements of the law and such,and yet the reality is in your
town and virtually every townUSA.
That's about 10% of the thingswe do putting hands on people
(22:23):
and so much is serving peopleshowing up for serious calls and
stupid calls because we show upat those.
How do you balance that withnew people to kind of set the
framework that this isn't allrun and gun stuff, or am I wrong
?
Jonathan Ziders (22:41):
No, we try to do that.
I specifically try to do that.
But I think in our interviewprocess it starts there and
we're looking to hireindividuals.
They all come in, they want toserve, they want to serve their
community.
So it's very similar statementby each individual.
You know candidate that comesin and it's and it's great.
(23:03):
I think it starts there and wereiterate to them exactly what
you stated, in that most of thisjob isn't doing the law
enforcement related stuff.
It really is about serving, andthat's where we really try to
cut our teeth when we are havingthese conversations with new
officers and specific,specifically when they're giving
(23:27):
us answers before they even gethired.
We actually had interviews lastweek and I know something
specific I stated to several ofthem were like okay, understand
those things that you juststated right now, that if you do
get hired, don't forget thosereasons why you want to do this
(23:47):
job, because you're going tocome in.
We see people, they come in andthey get jaded pretty quickly.
They and they forget why theycame in here and you know, maybe
they forget what they didbefore they walked in the door
and this job has served me verywell.
It's because I wanted it to.
(24:10):
I wanted to make sure that Iwas going out there every time I
had an interaction with thecommunity, that it was a
positive one, and that's what weactually try to reiterate to
the new officers and evencandidates at this point,
because when we're looking athiring, those are the types of
people that we want.
We want the service-orientedindividuals, the tactics and
(24:35):
stuff.
They have to be there.
Steve Morreale (24:37):
You can teach them and you've got to keep them
current, like keeping up withfitness.
But that's not the only part ofthe job, and I know you're
making that clear right.
There's so many other things.
Go out and make friends, don'tmake enemies.
Jonathan Ziders (24:51):
Correct and so much of the.
We have a very supportivecommunity and we want to be able
to maintain that.
So we want officers who aregoing to go out there and
understand their position in thecommunity and how they interact
and how they represent thisagency is going to matter.
It's going to matter to them,it's going to matter to their
(25:13):
career, but it's mostly going tomatter to the individual who
they're interacting with.
Steve Morreale (25:18):
You know it's interesting.
I'm, as soon as you saidsomething, something triggered
in my mind and I talked tosomebody who runs police to
peace is what it's called and Iwant to get her on and her whole
shtick, I think.
Jonathan Ziders (25:32):
I've seen that point made and and it's valuable
because our words matter.
You know, and I'm frequentlyspeaking with officers and you
read reports and things likethat and you have to kind of
have a conversation with themonce in a while when they're
stating things a certain way,that we know what they mean.
(25:53):
But when somebody else goes andreads this, it's going to
potentially mean something elseand labels matter.
So when we're talking aboutpolicing, you know the law
enforcement aspect is there.
But you know for us, for here,the people that are here in this
community, they support uslargely and I think it's because
of some of the work, especiallyin the most recent years, that
(26:15):
we've been doing out there wherewe want officers to be seen and
we try to communicate that tothe officers too.
Then the benefit of that becauseif something goes wrong, even
if some we didn't do anythingwrong, maybe that's everything
that we did on our end waslawful, but it just the lawful
but awful type of stuff where itdoes occur.
(26:40):
But if you've, you've put thosedeposits in and you create that
trust in the community thatthey're going to be the ones
that are there to support youand, by extension, you know the
politicians, then maybe don'thave to necessarily breathe down
our necks as much, because thecommunity says no, no, look,
(27:00):
look, we understand.
This is what had to be done.
There's nothing that was wronghere and we know who our police
agency is.
Even if you have a bad egg,somebody who kind of maybe they
just screw up.
If the trust is there and it'sbeen built over the years, you
can't substitute that and youcan't just make it up in the
(27:24):
short term.
It's something that's developedover a long time.
Steve Morreale (27:28):
I think what you're saying is it really
becomes important.
You, as an assistant chief,your, your colleague, the chief,
has that responsibility to foroutreach to the, to the
community.
And some people will say, right, that's your job, that's not my
job.
My job is to enforce the lawand be out there to make calls,
to take calls, and I would.
I would refute that.
I would say no, no, your job isjust like my job and that's to
(27:50):
have community outreach andpossible explain why.
Why do we blade our targets?
Why do you have your hand nearyour gun?
Sometimes Arrest never willlook good on camera because the
other person rarely wants you totake them and so it's going to
get a little messy for a minute,right, but it's messy until you
put the handcuffs on.
When that's done, it's done.
(28:10):
Let's get you up and out, and Imean I was preaching the choir.
We're talking to John Zitersand he is the assistant chief in
Lancaster Police.
I know that you, John, are anadjunct professor, and talk
about that and tell me whyyou're gravitating to want to
teach and how that sort ofmodifies your approach to
(28:33):
leading.
Jonathan Ziders (28:36):
Okay, Pursuing teaching really came about after
grad school and I had aconversation with the individual
who was running the program atthe time and it also opened the
doors on the teaching side ofthings.
But what I really wanted to dois have the opportunity in front
of students and Hilbert College, where I received my graduate
(28:57):
degree from, is a heavy criminaljustice program and I've been
able to do that prettyeffectively and that's one of my
favorite things to do is to gointo the classroom and provide
some real world examples to thestudents on scenarios that have
occurred in my line of work, oreven just to provide some
insight on something that mayhave happened in another part of
(29:20):
the country.
Steve Morreale (29:21):
You're looking at it from your lens and your
practical lens.
Jonathan Ziders (29:26):
You know and to provide some context for them.
Sometimes because you read,this stuff is put out in the
news and the news does what thenews can as far as putting
information out well, so I think.
Steve Morreale (29:40):
I'm thinking that sometimes you have to
dissect, you have to slice whathappened and and, and you don't
know that somebody came upbehind a police officer and put
their boot between their legsand that's not on camera.
You turn around so you don'tknow that part.
You know.
You don't know that they triedto bite them.
They don't know that they triedto spit on them or they,
(30:00):
whatever they refused and thecamera wasn't on at that moment.
Whatever it is, I I understandthat's that's helpful.
But again, being a teacherlearning how to teach, um, not
just walking in and talkingabout or talking about war
stories, because so many peopledo that, but you take a little
bit of theory and then youinject that you said context.
(30:21):
So you are quickly becoming apracademic, I might add, and
especially as you're working inyour doctorate.
But I think that's very helpfulfor people to understand, for
them to say well, let's look atthis from a whole bunch of
different sides.
You know how does the communityreact and how do the police
react and what were thealternatives.
And so what I'm about to sayhere is you've heard me talking
(30:43):
off a lot about leading withquestions and in a lot of ways
that's what you're doing in theclassroom.
Have you thought about that?
Have you thought about that?
Do you lead with questions inwork?
Do you have people come in andsay what happened, what could we
have done differently?
Have you thought about this?
Is that in your repertoire?
Jonathan Ziders (31:01):
It is not to the extent I want it to be.
I still have to be veryintentional about it.
There are times where I have tobe very self-aware.
When somebody's sitting infront of me that I take a step
back and stop talking.
When somebody's sitting infront of me that I take a step
back and stop talking.
You know and I've become a lotmore aware of that over the
(31:23):
years that this person is infront of me for a reason.
They're trying to tell mesomething.
I need to allow them.
I need to listen, stop and justlisten, and after that I can
ask whatever questions.
I need to develop some morecontext, but just allow them the
time, the space to speakwithout me interjecting it, and
I'll take that as a hereditarycomponent of my personality.
(31:45):
Love my mother, but those arethe that's.
When we have dialogue, it'slike you know, the talking over
one another type of stuff.
Steve Morreale (31:55):
You know, it's funny because, having sat on
many, many interviews and thenspend time in a classroom and
help people in a capstone to say, get ready for an interview, my
favorite saying is answer thequestion and put a period on it,
right.
So let's continue a little bit,because what I was saying is
you know, put a period on it,right.
So let's continue a little bit,because what I was saying is
(32:15):
you know, put a period on it.
It's the same thing and that'san interesting point that you
bring.
You know, active listeningbecomes so important in this job
, especially as you rise, sothat people walking into your
office have the feeling thatthey are being heard and they
have the ability to come in hereand talk with you.
And setting to me, setting up anorganization and policing is
(32:39):
very bad at this, and it hasbeen in the past that we're not
looking for you at the linelevel to tell us what to do, and
that's pure bullshit, I have tosay, because they know what's
going on.
They're there every day and ifwe're willing to ask what's
going on, what do you think isdifferent?
What do you think is missing,what might we do to improve, or
(33:01):
what are the problems out therethat we should be paying
attention to what's your take onit, and by sitting and asking
people that and making them feelthat they can come in if they
identify a problem, rather thansay after the fact, I knew that
was going to happen, you knowwell, if you knew what was going
to happen, why didn't you bringit to our attention?
I'm seeing you shake your headwith a little smirk.
So what are you thinking?
Jonathan Ziders (33:23):
No, that's exactly right, and we have a
good set of, especiallylieutenants and even some
officers who are willing to comeup and actually start those
conversations.
I'll be the first one to admitright now that the time I've
spent in these positions hasseparated me enough from the
road that I don't necessarilyknow what's going on there day
(33:44):
in and day out and what theyneed from us.
You know we need to give themthe tools to do what they need
to do and frequently, sometimesit falls on that and sometimes
it's it's personnel stuff daysoff.
You know we need more people,this and that.
Some of that we can control inthe short term, some we can.
We can look at long term, butcreating a space for them to
(34:05):
walk in and say, hey, this isgoing on, we, we need this piece
of equipment to help us do ourjob a little bit better, this is
going on with this individual.
We've had some stuff occurwithin the last year or so where
some people were, some officerswere struggling with some
things.
There were some officers werestruggling with some things and
(34:31):
it was brought to our attentionand we would never have known,
even if we were down therewalking around and you know,
having Kind of the simpleconversations in passing with
people, that the doors are openfor them to come in and explain.
Hey, I have these concerns,whether it's about another
officer or again some equipment,or even some of the laws that
(34:52):
are coming, that have beencoming to pass.
You know in New York State thathow do we actually address this
?
How should we approach thissituation?
We have a local First Amendmentauditor that over the last
couple of years has gained someofficers attention and they
needed to know, number one, thatwe have their back.
(35:14):
But, hey, if this happens, howdo you think we should actually
handle this?
and now, now we all kind of knowwhere that sits, but the door
is still open that when they seesomething, and that is, you
have to create a, a you said azone or a comfort and a
recognition that you are willingto listen right, and that's an
(35:37):
important element of leading, Ithink I think it goes in another
example that I'll give herewith the current chief and
myself and this was stillcaptain at the time but we were
dealing with some disciplinarythings and policy violations and
we were looking at handling itin a certain way and one of the
(35:57):
lieutenants came in to my officeand said hey, I, just just so
you know like you're looking atdoing this and this guy is a
super well-respected individualand both the chief and I were
new, newer in our positions Like, look, if you try to, if you're
going to do this, it's not,it's going to look like you're
(36:19):
dropping the hammer just to makea point in the level of
discipline and the violationdoesn't really reach what you
you're looking at doing.
We had a discussion on why thatmight be.
I offered my position, heoffered his position and at the
end of the day I understoodwhere they're coming from and
(36:42):
had a conversation with thechief and this is now the chief
willing to listen to what I haveto say.
Conversation with the chief andthis is now the chief willing
to listen to what I have to say,and ultimately we actually
ended up finding some middleground between where we wanted
to go with it and what ourintentions were and why we were
taking this, making this action,and where the lieutenant who
came up to speak to us wascoming from and how it was going
(37:04):
to positively or negativelyaffect the entire force.
You know everybody that elsewas down there and how it was
going to positively ornegatively affect the entire
force.
Steve Morreale (37:11):
Everybody that else was down there and how it
might be perceived.
Well, it sounds to me like ifhe was suggesting if you take
punitive action, seriouspunitive action, it is going to
backfire in many ways becauseother people are going to say
unfair and they're going to kindof rail against you, and so I'm
always pushing the idea ofwhenever possible.
You know, there are someegregious violations, I
understand, and they deservesome serious sanctions, but so
(37:34):
many of the things that peopledo can be handled correctively,
not punitively, right, andthat's a difference.
In other words, we're all human, we all make mistakes.
You know you said a swear atone point in time, all right,
human, we all make mistakes.
You know you said a swear atone point in time, all right,
and escalating.
And I think what you justdemonstrated, even the chief,
was the willingness to listen tosomeone and the comfort of
(37:56):
somebody coming forward and saybefore you do this, have you
thought about this?
Jonathan Ziders (38:03):
progressive discipline.
Steve Morreale (38:03):
Thank you, I was struggling for that, but you're
right and that's exactly it.
Jonathan Ziders (38:09):
And the thing is I know, from my perspective,
I don't.
I don't want my ego to get inthe way.
I want to get it right and ifthat means that I have to
swallow some pride, I'm going todo that because, ultimately, I
know myself and the chief wewant to get it right At the end
(38:32):
of the day.
To us, that, ultimately, iswhat matters, and a lot of our
discipline that we I won't callit discipline, because when
individuals do something wrong,it is more about what is there
to learn from this, and it's noteven just about learning from
(39:00):
having them learn, becausethere's something that, when it
occurs, maybe there's a cultureissue that we need to pay a
little bit more attention to andmake some adjustments in how we
are looking at things, andmaybe we need to make some
adjustments to policy.
Steve Morreale (39:15):
I think that's good, and a couple of things
that I wrote down is howimportant reflection is as a
leader to sit back and say howdid I do?
Could I have handled itdifferently?
How can I grow from this?
How can I make some?
How did I do?
Could I have handled itdifferently?
How can I grow from this?
How can I make some?
How can I correct some of themistakes?
And then sometimes you're goingto have to go back and kind of
eat crow and be humble and sayyou know, lieutenant John, steve
(39:37):
, I'm sorry, you know I Ioverstepped and I was a little
bit irritated that day.
I let my emotions get the bestof me and I hope you'll forgive
me and I've certainly had to dothat.
But I think what we're talkingabout and dancing around is a
little bit is is wheneverpossible.
Why?
aren't we using this asteachable moments?
Right, these aren't felonieswhen somebody doesn't wear a hat
(39:59):
or whatever the you know,whatever the complaint is, or
somebody leave something out ofa report unless it was done
purposefully, whatever thatmight be.
I think that's important.
What do you see yourself as youcontinue in this position?
What are you learning along theway?
(40:21):
Who do you lean on, potentiallyoutside of the organization?
As a mentor to run something by, and I don't need a name, but
do you have some?
Jonathan Ziders (40:30):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean.
There's a couple other localofficers, one specific captain
who I know is willing to alwayspick up the phone and listen to
what I have to say or somefeedback, and they're very
knowledgeable and we have asimilar mindset on some things.
They're very knowledgeable andwe have a similar mindset on
some things, but also enough ofa difference for them to provide
(40:51):
some honest critique andfeedback on, maybe, where I'm
coming from, if I'm wrong, I'mwrong, I have believe it or not?
It's a strange thing for me tosay this, but I have a good
relationship with my ex-wife aswell and you know, we spent a
lot of time together and sheknows me pretty well, but she's
also still.
She's not afraid to put me inmy place and obviously we're not
(41:15):
married anymore, but therelationship we were able to
maintain a friendship, raise ourdaughter together, and it was
because I still respected her asa person and she was able to
respect me as a person, andthat's how I tend to approach
all of my relationships.
You know, I don't have a lot ofenemies.
For that reason, and even if Idon't like somebody, I'm
(41:39):
respectful, I have aconversation with them.
Steve Morreale (41:42):
And are you running meetings regularly?
Jonathan Ziders (41:45):
So we don't run them enough.
We've had those conversations.
We probably need to do themquarterly, ideally maybe more,
but the size of our agency andcoordinating that gets a little
complicated.
So right now we do them twice ayear.
We probably need to do themfour times a year, quarterly, to
(42:07):
really be able to have moredirect lines of communication,
because that's where the rubbermeets the road as far as I'm
concerned.
We can.
Email serves its purpose, butit's not great, especially when
you really need to have theconversations, because we're
going to have a supervisormeeting next week and sometimes
(42:29):
these supervisor meetings wehave scheduled for two hours and
they run for four, and it'sbecause there's been such a gap
in time and everybody wants tohave their voice and their
moment and to discuss what'sbeen on their mind, and so we
don't run them enough, is myresponse.
Steve Morreale (42:49):
Do you see on your list of things to do with
the chief things to makeimprovements?
I don't.
I'm shy away from the work theword reform because of the way
it's been thrown at us, but, but, but is, is there room for
improvement?
Are there things you're workingon?
Are there things you're seeingoutside?
You were talking aboutco-response a bit and the
(43:11):
importance of that.
I presume that thatconversation we had before I
started taping about co-responsethe value, the experience of
co-response.
Obviously the cost, but doesthat imply that there are more
emotionally disturbed or mentalhealth related cases that you're
(43:31):
going on and your officers arenot clinicians?
Jonathan Ziders (43:37):
Correct, kind of tie all this in together.
Some of the things we'relooking to improve related to
the co-response aspect is asI've gone through the schooling,
the data component has becomemore prominent for me.
So one of the things I ended updoing was looking at our in New
York state.
It's mental health law 941.
I wanted to look at thosenumber of calls.
(43:58):
How many were labeled mentalper se and then how many of
those were like how many more ofthose calls were hidden in the
CAD data Right?
And sure enough, I starteddigging and I didn't even go
beyond welfare check, I juststarted looking at welfare check
(44:20):
and the number was three timesthe number that were actually so
it's underreporting, but notnecessarily on purpose.
No not at all.
Steve Morreale (44:32):
But yourself as an agency that might scare the
hell out of you if you get thereal numbers to say you know.
In these circumstances, we'dlike you to code it like this so
that we can better understandwhat kinds of calls are driven
in this direction Is that fair?
Jonathan Ziders (44:48):
Absolutely Right.
So that's a good example of thetypes of things that we are
looking at improving.
Let me backtrack here.
So the co-responder aspect ofit really came to fruition
because we started looking atthose numbers and pulling that
out and knowing there are someother local agencies that have
co-responders and the types ofnumbers that they have, and our
(45:13):
numbers really weren't that faroff to where we could actually
justify having a clinician onboard with us you know, I've
seen.
Steve Morreale (45:22):
I've seen some agencies.
You're a smaller agency, butI've seen all the agencies that
regionalize that.
That you know they.
They cobble together a littlemoney from you and from another
department.
Some agencies you're a smalleragency, but I've seen all the
agencies that regionalize that.
That you know they cobbletogether a little money from you
and from another department,another department, and you get
one or two and they're basicallyshared.
Right, it's a five-day week.
I'm going to be two days withyou, one day with you and two
days with you, and if you needme, I'm nearby and we'll
(45:43):
transport them over.
So I so, whether or not that'ssomething you've already heard
about, it's something that'sbeing used here in New England
all of the time now and it'srelevant news.
But it's certainly needed.
And what has started to happenin other organizations and
officers that I've spoken to isthat if you've got the right
clinician, it's like having theright doctor, but if you've got
(46:05):
the right clinician, you knowthat clinician can come in and
when the respect uh comes in forthat clinician and the way they
handle calls, the officersometimes retracts and is there
to provide some safety.
But there's a there's abyproduct of learning the way
that clinician approaches thatsituation and sometimes, when
(46:26):
they're not there the theclinician isn't there it
modifies the behavior of theofficer I was going to say the
agent but the officer and that'sa pretty significant byproduct.
So I know you're for it, I knowyou're looking at it, I
guarantee you'll be talkingabout it down at the National
Academy and that may be one ofyour projects too.
(46:46):
That could be of some value.
We need to wind down, but Iwant to ask you a few more
questions In the instant.
What are the modifications thatyou have had to make moving into
this position so that you'renot and because I know that we
call it the Peter Principle, orI don't, but it's called the
Peter Principle when you becomean assistant chief you become a
(47:10):
captain, but you're much morecomfortable as lieutenant and
you don't always rise to thatposition.
You don't let the person riseto their position as a new
assistant in a position you'venever had at the department.
How have you approached thisnew job, this new responsibility
, sort of your jobclassification and description.
(47:32):
I still am.
What are you smirking at me for?
Jonathan Ziders (47:37):
No, I mean I'm still making that adjustment.
So we actually transitioned oneof my previous captain's
position into this.
So the transition is somewhatnatural, but it's still.
There's a discomfort.
That is there.
Steve Morreale (47:51):
Knowing number one.
You're the test baby.
Jonathan Ziders (47:54):
Yes, and the direct number two yeah, and
knowing that the responsibilityis there, now I actually I have
two captains underneath me,which is, you know, the chief
was traditionally just had thecaptains underneath him, so now
I have another coupleindividuals that I don't like to
(48:16):
say.
Answer.
Steve Morreale (48:17):
They report to you.
Jonathan Ziders (48:18):
They report to you, correct, that's probably
the best way of putting it.
And again, so there's somediscomfort there.
I'm still trying to get my legsunderneath me a little bit as
far as that goes, but I thinkthe best way that I'm
approaching this right now ismaking sure that, now that I'm
(48:38):
in between the chief and the twocaptains that I, now that I'm
in between the chief and the twocaptains that I maintain I am
going to be the bridge betweenyou know what they're doing,
(49:00):
what's going on with the chief,and how that communication
between the four of us there'sfour of us right now actually
plays out how it flows Right.
Correct Cause, because there'ssome stuff that ultimately and I
think this is the importantpart of my position the chief
doesn't have to deal with, heshouldn't have to deal with.
He's got other stuff.
Steve Morreale (49:15):
Yeah, he could be out with more outward looking
, correct, okay?
Jonathan Ziders (49:19):
and my place is to fill that gap.
He needs to know the thingsthat that are important and that
he needs to know about.
But a lot of stuff it can stopwith me and I can manage it from
my perspective, whether it bedirectly through lieutenants or
if it comes through the captains.
And again, our doors are alwaysopen here because we are a
(49:41):
smaller agency, so officers kindof know that they can pop in,
sit down, have a conversationwith us if need be.
So that's probably the mostimportant adjustment that I've
made just in the short term here, because it's really only kind
of been a month right now is tomake sure that I'm just I'm
feeling my role as the assistantchief, as the know, the chief
(50:08):
and the captain.
So when you leave for 10 weeks.
Steve Morreale (50:12):
Will there be an acting in your, in your
position?
Jonathan Ziders (50:16):
Believe it or not.
Steve Morreale (50:16):
No, I think they're just largely You're
reverting back to the way it was.
Jonathan Ziders (50:23):
We're just going to yes, we're just going
to revert back.
Especially, it's kind of aneasy thing because it hasn't
just hasn't been in place fortoo long.
I got, they knew it was, theyknew it was coming, and the the
patrol captain right now she hasa good handle on things.
She's doing a fantastic job.
The detective captain he's beenin his position for quite a
while so he knows what's goingon on his end.
(50:45):
So I'm still, gonna believe itor not, my laptop is coming with
me and there's a couple smallthings that I'm probably still
going to manage when I'm downthere, because I'll have the
ability to, but it won't be muchto be you know one or two hours
, yeah, but I'm afraid you'regoing to be in the boardroom a
lot down there.
Steve Morreale (51:02):
My friend, you know what the boardroom is right
.
Jonathan Ziders (51:05):
Yeah.
Steve Morreale (51:05):
Those are the cheap beers with all the FBI.
Jonathan Ziders (51:08):
And I have heard.
Steve Morreale (51:11):
Well, that's good.
So, listen, I wish you goodluck.
We've been talking to JohnZyders and he's the assistant
chief in Lancaster, on his wayto the national academy in the
next month.
He is new with the assistantchief, I really appreciate it
Working towards yourdissertation, which is a big
deal, and if I can help you, youknow I certainly will.
(51:32):
But I want to thank you forsharing, and I want to thank you
for being so both, I'd say,humble, but so forthright about
the trepidation you have as youcome into a new job.
You want to fulfill it rightand you want to listen better.
So I mean, it's just greatstuff to be able to talk to.
(51:54):
You know, I think this, john,and I guess I you'll have the
last word, but as you rise toleadership positions, in my
estimation the position that youhave now attained is yours and
through your hard work.
But to me, our job as leadersis to not worry about ourselves
anymore but to develop others sothat the organization is
(52:16):
sustained and so that, as theystep up, that they can put their
little spin on improving theagency.
What do you, what do you thinkof that?
Jonathan Ziders (52:25):
I think you're spot on and it's it's a thing
(52:49):
that really has to be focused on.
What do you're doing?
That you're only really, eventhough you're doing it in a way
because you want to improve andbe better, you're still thinking
about yourself and hopefully,when you're thinking about
yourself, you know you'redeveloping that so you can
contribute and help and developothers in the agency and make
sure that they have their needsmet.
(53:09):
But again, it takes intentionand I think the intention comes
from the self-awareness andbeing humble and remembering
where we ultimately come from,understanding that there are
officers out there that mightwant to develop into the type of
(53:31):
person maybe not that you are,but pursue the position that
you're sitting in Right and puttheir spin on it, not
necessarily being a carbon copyof you, correct?
Correct, which is kind of what Idid when I pursued this
position.
The previous captain had beenhere for a long time and I
wanted to walk in and I had myown kind of plan of how I was
(53:52):
going to address it, and I don'tdo things just like he did and
I think he was a great guy.
But there was a transition andI think it's been welcomed and I
hope to make sure that theexample that I set opens the
doors for others to see whatthey can obtain in their careers
(54:15):
, cause I certainly did not seethat when I entered law
enforcement.
So, you know, leadership to meis really always been about
character, and now you can havebad character, I suppose, and
still be.
You know, leadership to me hasreally always been about
character.
And now you can have badcharacter, I suppose, and still
be a leader.
There's all kinds of examplesof that throughout history.
But when I say this, I don'tknow if I go to provide the best
(54:39):
context for it, but it's aboutcharacter.
But it's because it's about whoyou are and not so much about
what you do.
And when I mean that.
Steve Morreale (54:51):
I'll tell you what I think you're meaning is
you know you have to beauthentic.
It can't be fake.
It can't be fake.
You know, you are you.
You're still developing.
Right, I'm still developing.
I'll say I've been teachingleadership for probably 35 years
.
I constantly make mistakes andfine tune and retune and revise
and learn from others and learnfrom reading, and sometimes it's
(55:15):
learning through trial anderror that didn't work and I
think if we have that mindset,it allows us again to be candid
with people, to have humilityand realize what our
shortcomings are, and to be inwith people to have humility and
realize you know what ourshortcomings are and to be in a
constant state of learning.
Your statement I think so.
Jonathan Ziders (55:35):
Yeah, absolutely, I couldn't really
add more to it, that's great.
Steve Morreale (55:40):
so thank you so much.
I I do mean that I wish you thebest of luck, uh, both in this
position and in your opportunityto be again one of the first to
go to the National Academy foryour organization, and I know
you're going to make friends andcontacts that will be lifelong,
and I wish you the best of luck.
Jonathan Ziders (56:02):
Look, I appreciate you, I appreciate the
podcast and you know this wasan amazing opportunity.
I certainly could not imaginesitting here even several years
ago, but again, you do amazingwork.
I can't wait to hear more.
Steve Morreale (56:17):
That's great.
Thank you so much.
We've been talking, I've beentalking to Assistant Chief
Jonathan Zyders up at theLancaster New York Police
Department and I thank you.
Thanks for listening.
That's another episode on thebooks and I want to thank you
for listening.
I continue to say and I'mamazed that I'm hearing from
(56:37):
people from all over the world89 countries are listening,
which just blows my mind.
More importantly, keep learning, stay safe, keep your people
safe.
Intro/Outro (57:01):
Hav e a good day.
Thanks for listening to TheCopDoc Podcast with Dr.
Steve Morreale from WorcesterState University.
Please tune into The CopDocpodcast for regular episodes of
interviews with thought leadersin policing.
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