August 14, 2024 • 47 mins
Season 6 - Episode 135
Ever wondered what it takes to lead a police department effectively while fostering community trust and engagement? Join us as we sit down with Ben Murphy, the Deputy Chief of East Windsor Police Department,in Connecticut. Dive into his journey from New Britain Police Department to his current leadership role. A third-generation police officer, Ben shares how his family's legacy and his passion for public service shaped his career, along with the rigorous training at prestigious institutes like the FBI National Academy that honed his leadership philosophy.
Gain insights into the strategies that make a successful law enforcement leader. We discuss the importance of explaining the "why" behind decisions and involving officers in the decision-making process to ensure they feel heard and valued. Ben elaborates on the critical role of sergeants as influencers and the nuances of managing diverse teams by identifying informal leaders. The conversation highlights the necessity of credibility, character, and leading by example, as well as the distinction between management and leadership in fostering a supportive and fair work environment.
Community trust is paramount in policing, and Ben Murphy shares his approach to building it through proactive engagement and transparency. Learn about initiatives like Citizens Academies and CERT teams that bridge the gap between officers and the communities they serve. We also explore the evolving nature of policing, including collaboration with social services and mental health professionals, and the importance of continuous learning and professional development. Tune in to discover how showcasing positive interactions can humanize officers and counter negative narratives, and get a peek at future episodes featuring more notable figures in law enforcement.
Contact us: copdoc.podcast@gmail.com
Website: www.copdocpodcast.com
If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at stephen.morreale@gmail.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Intro and Outro (00:02):
Welcome to The CopDoc Podcast.
This podcast explores policeleadership issues and innovative
ideas.
The CopDoc shares thoughts andideas as he talks with leaders
in policing communities,academia and other government
agencies.
And now please join Dr SteveMorreale and industry thought
(00:25):
leaders as they share theirinsights and experience on Tthe
CopDoc podcast.
Steve Morreale (00:33):
Hi everybody.
Steve Morreale coming to youfrom Boston today and we're
going to another New Englandstate just south of me,
Connecticut, and today we haveBen Murphy who is the deputy
chief of the East Windsor PoliceDepartment.
Hello there, Ben.
Ben Murphy (00:47):
Hey Doc, how are you sir?
Steve Morreale (00:48):
Glad to have you finally.
You were a student in a masterof science in counterterrorism
where I believe you took bothborder security and leadership.
You were previously an officerfor a long time in the acting or
interim chief in New Britain,connecticut, a bigger department
than you are now, and nowyou're in East Windsor.
Talk about how long you've been, your career and what brought
(01:11):
you to East Windsor.
Ben Murphy (01:12):
Sure.
So policing for me is somethingthat's it's more than a job.
You know we talk about it often.
You know, with leadership as aprofession, it's almost a way of
life For me.
I'm a third generation policeofficer.
Grandfather, my dad, severaluncles were all on the job.
Side note, jumping ahead here Igot an 18-year-old who's going
to college for criminal justice.
(01:33):
So I love the profession, Ilove what it stands for, but
really don't know what you'redoing.
Through high school I waslooking at maybe a firefighter,
police officer, maybe somethingsecurity or military related.
Decided somewhere along mysenior year I wanted to go for
law enforcement.
That's what I went to schoolfor.
I went for criminal justice.
Intro and Outro (01:51):
At the age of 21,.
Ben Murphy (01:52):
I was offered a conditional offer of employment
for the city of New Britain.
It was the second police test Ihad taken.
Had a couple tilted heads atthe time, because my dad and
grandfather were both statetroopers and, truth be told,
with a lot of respect to ourfriends in the state, policing
driving up and down the highwayfor at least the early onset of
my career, it didn't reallyappeal to me as a younger
(02:13):
officer.
So I took the opportunity.
I started DeRode in 2002.
I was 22 years old and I workedfor 21 and a half years for the
city of New Britain.
I held every rank and heldcommand in every division,
including patrol, criminalinvestigations and professional
standards had the opportunity.
Probably one of the things Ienjoyed most was being on a SWAT
(02:35):
team.
I served for 11 years on atactical unit as a breacher, as
a team leader and then teamcommander for three, and I
retired in July of 2023.
I served 21 and a half yearsfor the city.
As you mentioned, I had servedas an interim chief for three
months.
You kind of know your worth andyou know what your capabilities
(02:56):
are, and so I had kind of runmy course because my goal then
and continue is to serve as aleader in the agency.
If I'm capped for movement, Imight as well choose to go
elsewhere, so I elected toretire at the time.
While that was taking place, Iwas actually finishing up your
class and taking into my lastmaster's program for
counterterrorism.
Steve Morreale (03:15):
So I remember having a conversation with you
where you were telling me whatyou might want to do, what you
were going to do, what you'rethinking of doing, and that you
were going to retire and moveinto another area.
And then I remember you a fewdays or weeks later saying I've
changed my mind.
You must have the bug.
It's in you.
You say I still have somethingin the tank and I want to give
(03:37):
back.
Is that what happened?
Ben Murphy (03:39):
I had a couple of job offers that were paid very
well, paying more than what I'dbe able to make here in regards
to security directors.
But what I also found out aboutthe private industry is you're
also as good as your first bigincident and, unlike somewhat
like policing, where you cankind of position people a little
bit more, if you're a securitydirector, you may not have any
(04:01):
control over who for GARDA orCrisis 24, whomever one of these
companies is putting as yoursecurity personnel, who you're
in charge of, and so you canbuild your immediate team and
often, when there's layers belowyou, if something gets dropped,
you are not generating moneyfor most companies.
You are basically a cost to themfor security, whether we want
(04:22):
to admit it or not, and so at myage 43, now 44, I wasn't
comfortable with getting intothat area, even with a higher
paycheck.
But again, it so happened atthe same time I got offered the
current position I'm in.
I was offered the chief'sposition in Somerville,
massachusetts, the same exactday, and I had to make a
decision with my wife and kidsas to do.
I want to pursue this, whichmeans moving out of state and
(04:44):
changing up our lives, or takingthis position here, which is
completely divergent from citypolicing, is now where I'm at, a
much more rural community.
Steve Morreale (04:53):
During your time and obviously what I want to
dig into is about leadership andhow your leadership grew and
what your approaches are and howour approaches in leading as
young leaders change over time.
They actually morph.
You've been able to go to theFBI National Academy, which is
amazing, smip for PERF, seniorManagement Institute for
Policing and the SouthernPolicing Institute, so there's
(05:15):
an awful lot of training andopportunities for you to hear
from people from all over thecountry in policing.
How did that attendance helpyou frame your leadership
approach?
Ben Murphy (05:27):
So I think at first, I made sergeant in 2008.
I was just turned 28 years oldand I had a brand new squad of
young officers 21 to 24 yearsold and my philosophy back then
was lead by example, and I stillthink that that's as important
then as it is today.
But you can't just hang yourhat on that.
You need to understand yourpeople too.
(05:48):
So I got a lot more of thistraining.
We got to start taking theseDISC assessments.
You started learning about thephilosophies of leadership in
regards to when is it time to bedemocratic, when is it time to
be autocratic.
Are you a transformationalleader?
And I know they sound likebuzzwords, but when you start
digging into them, they're allapplicable and it's how you do
it.
I love the term servant leader.
(06:10):
We heard that often, I thinkwhen I was first in Southern
Police Institute in 2017, andthat really got hammered home
and expanded upon in the lastnumber of years.
For me, that's what I try tomodel myself as best is looking
at your people first, looking atthe community you serve first,
because they had somethingwritten on the wall and I echo
this as often as I can down theDNA is that leadership is a
(06:33):
choice, it's not a rank, andthat is probably the most
profound leadership quote I'veseen in my 22 and a half years
and I firmly believe that.
And so attending these schoolsand talking with professionals,
you know you learn a lot ofthings.
I made friends with a lot ofchiefs and deputies from
agencies of 20 to 2000 pluspeople and some of the bigger
ones out in California.
(06:53):
The problems that we mightencounter here in an agency I
serve now of 28 are no differentthan maybe what Bridgeport,
connecticut, you know, dealswith 400 officers.
Fort Connecticut deals with 400officers.
So leadership challenges arethe same.
Strategies often are the same,as how you implement them and to
what scale, particularly basedon your personnel and that's
something I learned is there'snot one size fits all.
Steve Morreale (07:15):
And I appreciate you echoing that, because I
believe that and the commondenominator is we're dealing
with people both inside andoutside of the organization and
there are so many mistakes thatseem to be made that get called
to the national andinternational attention.
Those should be treated, in mymind, as learning opportunities
and assessments to say, hey,look what just happened in
Illinois, look what happened inMemphis, look what happened in
(07:37):
Minneapolis.
How are we working to avoidthis from happening here?
I want to dig into something.
When you become a leader my ownexperience and your experiences
it's no longer about you, butit's about your people and how
you can develop your people andhow you can guide your people
and how you can mentor peopleand pay attention to those that
need a little bit extraattention, keep them on the
(07:58):
right path Over time.
Here you are coming from agood-sized police department.
Let's do some comparison hereNew Britain had how many
officers?
Ben Murphy (08:06):
165 sworn.
Steve Morreale (08:08):
Okay, and now you have in the 20s, 28 sworn,
okay, and obviously thepopulation is much different.
But you walk into a new place.
You've got police experience,you've got education, you've got
training, you've made yoursteps and missteps with being a
leader, but you're walking intoa place you don't know yet.
Tell us what you did and whatyour mindset was when you came
(08:31):
into this new position tosupport a chief, but to also
understand the culture of thepolice department, so that you
could understand how to approachyour leadership actions.
Ben Murphy (08:42):
I came in here understanding that kind of like
the first pillar of 21st centurypolicing.
You have to build trust andlegitimacy.
Right, we know the six pillarsof policing and the first one,
building trust and legitimacy.
Now I come in with a goodresume, right, my actions have
spoken for you know some of theaccolades good, bad and
different.
You don't serve in policing for22 plus years.
(09:04):
You don't serve as a leader inthe supervisor position for 16
plus without making missteps,but you're coming in as an
unknown and one of the majordifferences not only population
size, just for comparison froman agency of 165 sworn, where
it's much lower socioeconomicpopulation right, very poor city
compared demographically towhere I'm at now the policing
(09:27):
style and the service requiredis different.
You go from a lot of crimeprevention still citizen
engagement, community policingto direct customer service also
crime prevention and communitypolicing, and you have to weigh
that.
And so when I came in I made aconcerted effort, I wanted to
meet everybody one-on-one and Ithink the open door concept you
(09:47):
say it at face value it's kindof BS because and I say that
like this, I have no delusionthat a 23-year-old kid on
midnights, when I leave the dooropen, is going to walk into the
deputy chief's office frommidnight, wait an hour and come
talk to me, and so I make anopportunity to go and approach
them, whether it's in thelunchroom, stopping on a road
job, catching them in the lockerroom.
(10:09):
One of the great things aboutthis small agency we have a
wellness committee.
We all get together once amonth.
We go kayaking, we go running,we're going to do a hiking thing
in about two weeks.
I put my rank aside.
I'm there with the folksbecause, again, as a smaller
agency, you see everybody andthey get to know you.
I recently had the opportunity,last Saturday, of working a
(10:29):
midnight shift.
I spoke with the sergeant doingthe scheduling and they were
going to have to hold someoneover.
I said you know what?
It's been 12 years since Ipushed the black and white.
Let me go work a midnight shift.
My wife thought I was nuts.
I had a blast.
I made a drug arrest, I found acouple of suspicious people, I
did a bunch of security checks,we stopped cars and the guys get
to see me go out and do it.
I don't have to do that in nocapacity, you're leading by
(10:51):
example.
You lead by example and youbuild some credibility, and it
was enjoyable.
And so the other end of it, too, is when you start getting
involved.
I've been here long enoughwhere I've already handled a
number of IAs.
I met the union president andthe union delegates although
there's only a handfulimmediately, and I laid out my
philosophy.
I'm like listen, I got threeapproaches to discipline.
(11:12):
If there's a problem, it couldeither be performance, which we
can almost always get pastconduct abstinent, being
criminal.
We can get past it.
And then there's integrity.
If you have an integrity issue,there's not much I can do for
you there.
Let's keep it at the first twoif we have to deal with it.
But I'm going to be matter offact with you and tell you this
is what we have coming, this ishow I'm going to handle this.
There's no surprises, and thatbuilt very good bridges
(11:34):
immediately and we've beencontinuing on that since I've
been here.
Steve Morreale (11:37):
Terrific.
One of the things that I wantto do is to ask you some
questions about your approach toleadership, and you've already
enumerated a few of them, but,by the way, we're talking to Ben
Murphy.
He's the deputy chief down atEast Windsor, connecticut.
I want to talk about some ofthe things that I have learned
to do over time, and I speakabout them in many of the
trainings that I'm involved in.
(11:57):
First thing is, wheneverpossible, start with explaining
why.
What does that mean to you?
Ben Murphy (12:02):
We're seeing that today.
Just go on fake book, as myfather calls it.
Go on social media, turn on thenews.
If we don't fill the narrativeand give the explanation of why
we're doing something, peopleare going to make their own.
We see that I think we're thebiggest victims of that of all
professions in the United States.
People filling in narratives,they don't substantiate their
(12:23):
claims, whether it's use offorce, facial profiling,
training, education withofficers, the idea of a thin
blue wall Like in 2024, withtransparency cameras, policies
and training like that's a thingof the past.
But again, people are going tobelieve only what's in front of
them.
So I think with officers, youknow when you introduce a new
policy, whether it's a policy,whether it's a change in
(12:45):
directive it's not onlyexplaining the why.
But I'll even go a step further, like get them involved in the
decision.
At the very least, even if youdon't go with what they propose,
they have a say in the matterand you can explain the worst
thing.
You talked about a culture.
I walk into a new agencyregardless of my tenure on the
job and experience.
Sacred cows are big things withpeople and they don't like you
(13:06):
tipping them over.
So if they have operations acertain way on patrol, even if
they're not, if they're notreasonable or productive.
If I have to make a change, Ihave to incrementally do that.
I can't come in the nextmorning and say we're doing it
this way, x, y, z.
I want to tell them why and getmy bosses on board to be
surrogates of my message,because if I go out there and
(13:28):
just say it to them, well thenthat's just being almost like a
dictator.
I'm blanket changing this,whereas if I get my lieutenants,
my sergeants, to understand andbuy in, then they're providing
my message for me and they'reessentially my surrogates.
Steve Morreale (13:48):
That's, I think, how you get better buy-in.
It's interesting that you saythat because it seems to me that
when somebody in your tenureand my tenure, somebody is
driving an idea through you thatyou have to go through and tell
people we're going to do this,isn't it better, if you
understand the why, in order toexplain the why down the line?
Ben Murphy (14:01):
Yes, a hundred percent%.
And I think being open forquestions, explaining that is
too.
Don't just go to roll call andsay, hey, we're going to start
doing this for check-ins orwe're going to start handling
investigations this way.
Here's why we're doing it, andyou might have some dissension.
You might have it from theperson who's just comfortable
with being a note taker, andunfortunately you get that in
(14:22):
every agency, right?
I'm just using it the example.
If we're going to do above andbeyond, you have some officers
who are note takers, you havethose who are on the precipice
of excelling in their career andyou got others who are already
your high performers.
That's maybe going to changethe tone of how they're doing
their job, but answering thequestions for them and saying
this is the positive reasons whywe're doing this, whether it's
(14:42):
a state mandate, whether it's abest practice in the industry or
whether it's suited for youragency, everything that works
here in the East Windsor PoliceDepartment may not work to our
neighboring town of SouthWindsor, based on their
demographics, their business,their stakeholders, and so I
think getting their buy-in andtheir feedback goes along with
that.
Why?
Steve Morreale (15:01):
I got to agree with you there.
It also seems to me, and assergeants, lieutenants and
captains are listening from allover the world to the podcast,
it strikes me that no matterwhat the agency, we have A, b
and C players, in some casessome D players, except when you
were in the SWAT team, let's saywe are not handed an all-star
team.
You know that that happenedeven on your midnights with the
(15:24):
young bucks that were working inEast Windsor.
So the leader or the supervisorinherits a group of people that
are at different levels.
You understand I think you justaddressed that.
But since we don't have anall-star team, how do you work
with identifying informalleaders to kind of push out
ideas to help people understandthe job the way it should be
(15:46):
done?
Talk about that, ben.
Ben Murphy (15:48):
When you're at the level of a deputy or a chief,
you have to rely heavily on thefact, or at least the belief,
that your sergeants andlieutenants have gotten to know
and grew their people.
One thing, and I kind of wantto walk back something not walk
back, but kind of revisit thefact of chiefs and deputies make
an awful lot of impactfuldecisions, but to a young
(16:09):
officer the sergeant is theirworld.
Steve Morreale (16:11):
The sergeant's the boss.
The sergeant's the boss, noquestion.
Ben Murphy (16:13):
They're the boss.
If you're brand new in theneighborhood and you can only
see the end of your road, that'syour sergeant, that's what your
life revolves around, and theyaround and they have such an
impactful way of changing thetrajectory of a young officer's
career.
And so I expect my sergeants tonot only work with but know
personally their officers.
Now, that doesn't mean theyhave to go out and have beers or
(16:35):
invite each other overChristmas dinner, but you should
know if somebody's mom is sick,somebody re-enrolled in college
, somebody's getting marrieddown the road?
Are they having troublefinancially?
And I think that goes back toagain starting with the
mentoring programs we run beingable to help those out.
But you get to know from yoursupervisors you have to rely on
them.
Based on our paramilitarystructure, who are your informal
(16:58):
leaders?
I can tell you from my agency.
I have a senior corporal.
He is 20 years on the job, hehas a lot of juice here and he
is an outstanding police officer.
I like to work with him to getthings done through patrol,
amongst other things.
I identified him.
So again, he's one click aboveofficer but he carries a lot of
weight with people in the lockerroom on the road.
I know I identified a month onhim.
(17:20):
That's a guy that they go tobecause he's very good at his
job.
He's very good with thecitizens, but he's very
comfortable where he's at withhis rank and I understand that
some people don't want more of aburden on their shoulders with
the position.
But what I do is that's a guywho I'm going to bring into the
fold.
So, like for us, for example,we're bringing on six or seven
new vehicles in the next year.
For an agency our size, that'squite a bit.
(17:42):
He handles our vehicles.
We give him the chief,basically grants him almost full
autonomy to order vehicles,purchase vehicles, outfit them,
keeping us in the loop, and thatgoes over well.
So you keep someone like thatin good graces.
So I think this goes back to anI&O book I read for my
sergeant's exam in 2008.
You give someone a degree ofauthority, you give them
(18:05):
parameters so they don't failand they don't get hurt in the
process If they do well you givethem credit.
If it goes sideways, you own itas a book.
Steve Morreale (18:12):
Yeah, well, you know, and that's interesting.
You say, like the book andIononi is a book that I read in
1975, for goodness sakes, Ithink it's still being written,
but the guy died a long time ago, so somebody else is writing it
for sure.
But I think you're right, andthere's a difference between
book smarts and street smarts,and I know that.
You know that.
It seems to me that a leader isabout developing others and
(18:33):
creating opportunities for anagency to be sustained through
its peoples, but also not imposeyour own singular ideas, but
look for other feedback so thatyour own point of view grows.
I'm sure that's happened, sotalk about that, unless I'm
striking out.
Ben Murphy (18:51):
So I think one of the things I'm tasked with in my
current position is beingoperations commander, right,
essentially all things day today, whether it's patrol,
training, cid.
I'm tasked with making surethat's keeping running.
And one of the things I like todo is, if I identify something
which I might perceive as anissue or hey, is there a better
way of doing business, I pull inthat sergeant or lieutenant, I
(19:13):
pull in that detective sergeantand say what can we do better?
I'm going to go with yourrecommendation because your
boot's on the ground.
I'm not investigating therobbery of the gas station.
I'm not investigating thedomestic violence call we just
went to.
So do you have a better way?
And again, I'm going to givethem credit and I'm going to
(19:34):
follow their advice.
You know, I think that goes backto again as a leader showing
some kind of humility and thatunfortunately gets conflated
often with weakness.
I think humility is a strength,saying I don't know or I'm
willing to acquiesce to what youthink is better because you
have the better practice, notadvocating my responsibility At
the end of the day it falls onmy shoulders, but I'm going to
(19:57):
lean on you and what you thinkis best for this and if I agree
with that and I see it'sreasonable, then we're going to
go with it.
And again, I think that getsgoing back to the why you get
better buy-in from folks too.
They feel comfortable thatyou're going to do that.
I think the key where we dropthe ball often as leaders is we
don't follow through on it.
We don't follow through if wesay, hey, we're going to do the
(20:17):
new way of handling schoolcheck-ins based on your
recommendation, and we end upnot.
But I think getting peopleinvolved and getting them on the
bus is important and keepingthem there as well.
Steve Morreale (20:35):
Think about the evolution from the time you were
a sergeant on to lieutenant andon and on and on, and the
changes that you had toundertake to understand and
practice.
Your leadership was differentas a sergeant than as his deputy
and a chief, but talk aboutthat evolution and how long it
took and how many missteps alongthe way.
Making an assumption, maybe younever had a misstep, but I'd be
(20:55):
curious about that.
Ben Murphy (20:56):
Again for working in a larger agency.
I worked for some of the most Ihad leaders at the time I'd
walk through hell with gas bootsfor because I knew that they
advocated for me.
I go back to when I was a youngofficer and in 2004, I came in
second place with a Buick on myHarley Davidson.
Broken bones tore up my faceand arms.
(21:17):
I had a sergeant pick up myfiancee then wife, drive her
code one to the hospital.
I had another sergeant of mineshow up at my house the next day
mowing my yard.
I had another check and I meanthey didn't have to do that.
So that was the world to me.
Those were the people who setmy impression on policing.
I also worked for somesupervisors who were not good,
(21:37):
moral, ethical people.
Literally, you bring in anarrest and they didn't want
anything to do with bookingbecause they didn't think it was
a just arrest or you would behandling a situation and they'd
run two clicks above their rankwithout having a conversation
with you to try to well, I'mgoing to try to distance myself
from this problem withoutexplaining whether we had a
probable cause, whether it was ajust arrest or there was a use
(21:59):
of force and these are peopleyou know.
Again I wouldn't let in myhouse to let my dog out, let
alone emulate after them forleadership.
You learn that Again.
I worked for people.
I worked for bosses, captainswho did certain things where I
would never want to be treatedlike that again, or nor do I
want to treat my people.
Steve Morreale (22:17):
So, if I can interject here, it seems to me
what you're saying in the longway is that we have bosses that
are good and bad, and we learnwhat to do and what not to do,
what to emulate and what toavoid.
Fair.
Ben Murphy (22:28):
Correct.
And again, you know one of thethings I think we do very poorly
in this profession,particularly chiefs and deputies
, and this may not be supportedhow somebody conducted
themselves, but they don't havethe fortitude to stand by that
when their feet get held to thefire.
And I think that's where youlose credibility with your men
(23:01):
and women.
Steve Morreale (23:02):
Your character is all you got to stand by at
the end of the day.
So they talk about it but theydon't act on it.
Ben Murphy (23:07):
Yes, it's words, not actions, and I think, if that's
the type of leader that you are, I'd have a hard time sleeping
at night if I'm going to say onething and do anything other
with the people who are watchingme, because one thing I've
learned from a sergeant all theway up people are always
watching you.
Yes, no matter what you do, youwant to find out who's watching
you.
Go on your LinkedIn account onyour premium, and it shows you
(23:27):
who's clicking your views everysingle time, and it's very
interesting to see the peoplewho are seeing what you're doing
, because there's a bigdifference that people checking
on how you're doing and whatyou're doing.
The first care about you andyour family.
The second wants to keep up onwhat you're doing.
Steve Morreale (23:42):
Big difference.
Yeah, and that's an interestingperspective, because I'm sure
that you have lived in policingwhere, because of your abilities
, because of your likability,because of your efforts to make
changes in the proper way, thereare people who accept you and
embrace you and love having youas partner, and there's others
that are threatened by you.
Ben Murphy (24:02):
I think at this point in my life and in my
career, right stands on its ownmerit.
A very good friend of mine, whowas a strongly religious man
the DNA, said that.
He said that in his Mississippiaccent to me.
He said Ben rot stands on itsown merit, and that's as true
today as it ever will be.
And so if you believe in whatyou're doing is just and there's
a better cause, then there's noreason to push forward with
(24:24):
that.
And honestly, if you let theopinion of others craft how you
live your life, whether it'swith your personal family, with
your work family, I think you'rea weak individual.
For me it's.
Here are my beliefs, here aremy convictions, and we're going
to do this.
I'm very fortunate now whereI'm serving under a chief who's
also a good friend of mine.
We went to the NA together.
We attended SMIP and SPI alltogether.
Steve Morreale (24:46):
Isn't that something?
Ben Murphy (24:48):
But the good thing is his background is very
heavily on criminalinvestigations, so when it comes
to operations, training tacticsreally wasn't his wheelhouse.
Let's me handle the things.
Obviously, I keep him wellinformed of what's going on, but
we work as a team and I thinkwhen you do that I think you
have a much better runningorganization and I think people
see that and appreciate that too.
Steve Morreale (25:10):
Well, we're having a deep conversation on
policing and leadership andorganization and culture with
Ben Murphy.
He's the deputy chief down inEast Windsor, connecticut.
He is somebody who is, I assume, a lifelong learner.
But I want to talk about yourbelief, about being a lifelong
learner and realizing that youdon't know everything and
(25:30):
sometimes, many times, you don'tknow what you don't know.
Ben Murphy (25:33):
Right now for me, doc, a concern, and I ask all my
sergeants and lieutenants whoare our next sergeants and
lieutenants and this newgeneration wants to work, have
their time off, but they don'tunderstand that pushing the
black and white for 20 years isa long career.
So it's incumbent upon us topush down the importance and the
utility of being a supervisorand how to impact change,
(25:54):
because if you're not in thatposition, you're not going to be
able to make those changes.
Steve Morreale (25:57):
So, Ben, as I intimated, Mike Marquardt and
Bob Tiede wrote a book which Ireally enjoy, and it's called
Leading with Questions, and itstrikes me in this way that when
we are investigators, we learnhow to ask questions, and the
really big thing with askingquestions is ask the questions
and shut up, let the otherperson talk.
I don't know that all leadersdo this, but I'm curious to know
(26:19):
whether you feel that you leadwith questions, that you're in
meetings and are posingquestions that are probative,
that are curious, that almostpush the envelope to innovation
and creativity, in other words,thinking about new ways to do
things.
Talk about that.
Ben Murphy (26:36):
I think you need to decide what type of meeting
you're hosting in the firstplace.
If it's something along thelines of explaining the why,
going back to that question,that needs to be more of a forum
discussion.
I believe staff meetingsalthough it's important to get
your messages out, yourexpectations, your objectives
that needs to be a forumdiscussion.
You need to discuss with folkslike here's what I'm seeing from
(26:58):
my seat I sit behind the deskall day.
You folks are on the road,you're investigating the
follow-ups and the CID.
What am I missing?
Do I have a skewed view?
Am I accurate?
And if there is a problem, well, how do we come to a conclusion
?
I need folks to understand.
For example, if I'm looking tochange the dynamic of how we're
growing our younger officers,here are my recommendations.
(27:19):
Why aren't you doing it?
Has it been poor modeling?
Do you not know how to do it ordo you not want to do it?
Either way, it's a problem thatneeds to get fixed, but I'd
like to hear that consensus.
Another thing I learned veryintently and I learned this from
one of my sergeants early on inmy career who ended up becoming
a captain and then a colleague,and then shortly a subordinate
before he retired was be verycareful.
(27:41):
What you consider a door toconversation.
There's not too many thingsthat are technically off the
record.
You can't start off having aone-on-one with somebody and say
, hey, this is Ben to Steve, andthen you say something that I
disagree with and I put on mysupervisor hat.
You can't do that.
You've already basically setthe table for it being informal.
That also goes in line where asif that doesn't really generally
(28:03):
go towards progressivediscipline.
So you need to different folksas well.
This goes back to understandingwith like the whole disc
assessment and knowing yourpeople.
Can you have a door to withsomebody?
I can tell you through mycareer, there are a number of
guys who I served with on SWATwho I could probably have a door
to, whereas maybe certain otherpeople on patrol I wouldn't
dream of doing that because themessage wouldn't get across as
(28:26):
such.
So I think having them having asay as well, that kind of goes
back to the whole concept ofprocedural justice, letting
people have a voice.
I think your employees need tohave a say too.
Steve Morreale (28:36):
So what you're saying.
So there's two things I want tosay.
So you're talking aboutprocedural justice and you just
applied it to the internal useof procedural justice, right,
which a lot of people arebeginning to talk about, but
they don't necessarily.
If we don't treat our peoplewell inside and they go out and
mistreat people outside, are weto blame, right?
In other words, if they don'tleave here having hope.
You know, I just got my asschewed out, but I have some hope
(28:57):
.
You know that I can go out anddo the job and I'm not going to
get penalized, otherwise I'mgetting yelled at or screamed at
, no different than gettingyelled at or screamed at by my
mother, my father, your spouse.
It carries outside.
So I like that use ofprocedural justice that you just
suggested.
But before you move too fardown the road on that, explain
(29:18):
what you mean by door two.
Not all players are going tounderstand what you mean by that
.
Ben Murphy (29:21):
Sure.
So I think door two is thatthis is an unofficial counseling
session.
This is an unofficial come toJesus, as I had one boss used to
say to me, basically sayingwe're talking about something
you did, we're not going topaper on that.
Don't do that again, don't makeme have this conversation again
.
Not everybody is going torespect or appreciate that and
(29:43):
others might take offense tothat and also understand that
when you do that and somebodydoes that again.
Steve Morreale (29:53):
You can't use what you just conducted the
informal unofficial conversationright?
Ben Murphy (29:55):
That has to be extremely, scrupulously
considered if you're going to betalking to somebody on that.
I'm not an advocate of puttingeverything on paper.
There's certain things that youcan handle internally, but at
the same time, you have tounderstand is what is the
liability?
What is the impact on theofficer?
Is this going to change theirbehavior?
So all those things need to beconsidered.
(30:16):
It's not just a one size fitsall.
Steve Morreale (30:18):
That's a little bit of situational leadership
too, because some people aregoing to accept that, like you
just said, without any problemand others are going to run to
the union and say I know whathe's going to do.
He's setting me up, it's thatkind of stuff.
No, it was meant to be informal, and sometimes those informal
conversations can bite you inthe ass because they're
misinterpreted, misunderstoodand they're then turned around
and used on you.
You're shaking your head, soyou understand that.
(30:40):
So it's got to be the rightperson, right that you're doing
the informal work with.
Ben Murphy (30:43):
Yes, and I think also our employees.
They want it both ways.
I feel the same way.
You want a boss who's notcapricious.
Right, someday you come in andthis guy is dropping the hammers
to hell, and the next day it'soh hey, you know we're holding
hands and singing.
You know show tunes,everything's good.
You have to be consistent and Ithink that that's what bosses
(31:04):
like you know.
Again, I said this beginning Doc, I'm a third-generation police
officer.
I'm unapologetically pro-police.
That doesn't mean I have lowstandards.
My standards for cops arehigher than probably most of the
hating liberal media who maynot like us on certain things.
My standards are very high formy officers, but I'm going to
defend them until I can't defendthem.
There's where a big differenceis and I think when people
(31:26):
understand that and believe that, I think that's where you have
that much better relationshipand I think that's important.
As a leader, you have tosupport your people.
You have to believe thatthey're out there doing the best
of intentions, because 99.9% ofus are out there doing that.
When you do that and youractions support that, I think
that's where you get that goodfollowership.
Steve Morreale (31:45):
So, as you, we use the word sometimes.
Leadership isn't misunderstood.
I don't think you misunderstandit, but management and
leadership are two differentthings.
And a leader has to manage.
There's no question about that.
But the leader has to think big, has to think down the road,
has to think broader, has tokeep banging the gong about, in
my mind, improving theorganization and, as a byproduct
(32:07):
of improving the organization,one of our jobs is to improve
our people, to give peopleopportunities, new opportunities
, to talk with them about whatyou see in them.
You just said that you'reasking your supervisors who the
next sergeants and lieutenantsmight be.
That's an interestingperspective, because you're
asking, closer to the road,closer to the work, who do you
(32:29):
see that has potential?
How does that work?
Ben Murphy (32:32):
Well, I think it's important.
If you truly like and respectthe organization and I'll even
go a little bit more global, ifyou will if the profession
you're not going to be in thisprofession, there's a timeline
for all of us to hang up ourduty belts.
And if you truly care about theplace and the people, well,
someone's going to fill yourseat.
That's one thing often I thinkpeople forget so quickly is
(32:54):
we're not just a number, butyour seat never gets cold.
Someone's chomping at the bitto get your seat.
So who are the next peoplethere and who are the right
people for there?
Are we going to promotesomebody who's a good test taker
or do we have somebody who's aleader who could maybe use a
little bit more mentoring andcoaching to get them up to where
they can be, because they'remissing aspects of that portion
(33:14):
of their job?
So I think that's vital for thehealth of any organization to
have a good succession plan andto grow your people.
Underneath you there's a verypopular chief in the state of
Connecticut who just retiredChief Brian Gould.
And Chief Gould said to me oncehe goes you know, as a chief of
an organization, if you takecare of your people and those
people take care of the mission,then the mission takes care of
(33:34):
itself.
And I thought that was ratherprofound.
You take care of your folks.
You grow the right people.
They're going to do the rightthings.
That makes your job that mucheasier and that helps continue
and flourish and move forwardwith your agency.
I'm sure you can attest to ittoo.
There's people of rank.
You know the old I believe.
It's correct me if I'm wrong.
Steve Morreale (33:53):
The Peter principle.
Ben Murphy (33:57):
They shouldn't have been where they're at and they
don't know how to be supervisors.
Steve Morreale (34:06):
We want to grow the right people for the right
reasons.
So what's your take oneverything that's swirling
around for policing and whetherwe're moving back to center
along the way?
Even small departments lostsome public sentiment because of
what other people did.
I intimated earlier about usingsituations that crop up in the
field that bring disrepute topolicing and how we, I think, as
a profession, need to sit withour people to talk about that,
(34:29):
to assess that in some cases,monday morning quarterback even
though we're Monday morningquarterbacking a colleague how
do you see it going?
Is it working better?
Is it all about relationships?
Think about back to New Britainand how important relationships
were with all the neighborhoodsand now in East Windsor with
the different segments.
Tell me your thoughts aboutthat.
Ben Murphy (34:51):
So I think you need to set expectations from the
beginning.
One of the things you know Itell any rookie cop.
I explain this to my18-year-old son, who's
potentially going to be lookingto get on the job in three, four
years Law enforcement is apendulum.
We are also political football.
During the George Floydincident, we were the jackbooted
thugs of the world.
(35:11):
January 6th took place and wewere the heroes of the nation
and fill in the gap.
Steve Morreale (35:16):
Yeah 9-11 happened and we were amazing and
we loved America.
Ben Murphy (35:20):
And so that's always going to happen, and I don't
think it's going away in your ormy lifetime because of the
proliferation of social media,and so what I think is important
is again going back to fillingin the narrative and providing
education on what we do.
I have no scientific way ofsubstantiating this.
I'd say 90% of the communitydoes not know what we do, what
(35:43):
we're allowed to do, how wetrain and why we do what we do.
So that's where your communitypolicing comes in.
We've recently just ran aCitizens Academy.
Steve Morreale (35:51):
I saw that.
I saw that on LinkedIn.
Yes, I did see that.
Ben Murphy (35:54):
And we had huge turnout and it was incredible
how many people were involvedand learned so much and we got
rave reviews and they weren'tall there yet as waving thin
blue line flags.
I had a handful of people atthe very beginning.
They were very standoffish butthey wanted to know about what
we did, programs like that we'restarting.
Actually part of my afternoontoday here is finishing up.
(36:16):
We're putting together a CERTteam, a Citizen Emergency
Response Team.
Steve Morreale (36:19):
Oh, great.
Ben Murphy (36:20):
Getting people involved.
So when they serve as our forcemultiplier and serve in
emergency situations, going tothe senior center and talking to
the seniors, working withpolice explorer programs or
police athletic leagues andworking with kids All of those
are so important because you getto impart a little bit of what
we do, but they also are notbeing force-fed.
(36:42):
That you know.
Again, it is us versus them.
If you have an us versus themattitude in law enforcement,
it's time to retire.
Those days are long, long gone.
There's not any model ofpolicing which anybody supports
anymore and it'scounterproductive.
I think getting people involvedand getting the people from the
communities involved and takingsome accountability for their
neighborhoods and stuff too,that was a big thing which
(37:03):
sometimes that big A word scaressome folks.
You need to take accountabilityfor your actions, for your
neighborhood, which meanscalling us, reporting things,
adhering to the laws orordinances which do apply to you
, but again, being seen assomebody who's a part of your
community.
I don't currently live in EastWindsor, but I am absolutely a
part of this community.
(37:23):
I didn't live in the city ofNew Britain.
I was absolutely part of thatcommunity.
I'm an integral part of thatcommunity and that's why I want
people to see me and theofficers?
Because, frankly, if you're outthere eight to 16 hours a day
pushing the black and white orserving in the schools and SRO,
you're seeing the people in thiscommunity likely more than your
family during your working week.
It's the way it is.
Steve Morreale (37:44):
So I think we do a poor job.
You probably are workingtowards improving that.
It's a poor job of humanizingour job, of patting people on
the back, of pushing officers tomake friends.
I mean, enforce the law whennecessary, but to make friends.
And, ben, as we talk aboutpolicing and we're talking
generally, people who listen arein the business.
(38:05):
Law enforcement is just a piece, a small piece of policing
right the communityunderstanding collaboration with
other organizations, withsocial service agencies, I mean,
with the rise of mental healthissues, having some clinicians
that are available to help usthrough those kinds of things.
The world is changing andpolicing is trying to change.
(38:25):
What are you seeing happeningand how do you humanize the work
of your police officers?
Ben Murphy (38:31):
One of the things that we haven't done a great job
in most of my career and I'mseeing the tide change is
utilizing social media and mediato our advantage.
They're not our enemy, we can'tavoid it.
When I got on the job and therewas a homicide, they would
report on it at 5 and then theywould report on it at 11 and
(38:52):
then first thing in the morning.
Nowadays it's being livestreamed before the first
officer puts his car in park.
So getting out in front of thatand being able to be open and
honest as much as you can,without tipping our hat to
investigations, investigations,but to humanize us using the
social media.
I'm going to take a quote froma good friend of mine, Quentin
(39:13):
Williams, who runs a 501c3dedication to community.
Steve Morreale (39:14):
I saw that.
Yeah, I want to talk.
I want to hear about that.
Ben Murphy (39:16):
Yes, Quentin is a very good friend and mentor of
mine, but he always said copsdon't like spiking the football.
But we have to because we needto put out there when the
officer stops and throws afootball with a kid, we need to
put out there when the officerstops and throws a football with
a kid.
We need to put out there if weare hosting a ice cream social,
because if we're not, that'sbeing overtaken by the guy
living in mom's basement who'ssaying police tactics, police
(39:38):
officers, we need to abolish XYZ.
We're awful human beings.
That's going out thereunfiltered.
So we need to be able to pushout good information and
accurate information on aregular basis.
And so, again, working in thecurrent community I'm at where
we don't have the overwhelmingcalls for service bogging us
down.
I stress to the officers getinto the park, go to the public
(40:02):
swimming area, stop at the skatepark.
I don't care if you say, hey,I'm offline doing some
direct-to-patrol and you'reshooting hoops with a kid, keep
your radio on, but they'reseeing you.
And that's so important because, again, as much as I still say,
this is a profession, it's nota job.
The uniform comes off andpeople need to understand that
you're still.
You know I'm a dad, I'm a coach.
Those are the most importantthings in my life.
(40:24):
This substantiates mylivelihood and I love what I do,
but the community needs to seepart of that as well.
Steve Morreale (40:30):
So we're talking to Ben Murphy and he is a
deputy chief in East Windsor,connecticut, and we're getting
ready to begin to wind downpolicing as it is today.
You tell me earlier that yourson is entertaining being the
fourth generation by going to acriminal justice program in
college.
So that implies that you aresupporting your own flesh and
(40:52):
blood to come into the business.
How do you speak to youngpeople about considering
policing, given all thenegativity?
But there's such positivitythat we can sell?
How do you do that?
How do you sell it?
Ben Murphy (41:03):
So I think, as difficult as it is, you can't
say cancel out the noise, you'renot going to be able to do that
but you combat things.
You know, one of the thingsI've learned, doc, from going
through my master's program andbeing in school for almost seven
years between bachelor's andmaster's back to back is to
critically think.
And there's a big differencebetween anecdotal beliefs and
empirical evidence saying let'stalk about use of force, please
(41:26):
go out and beat people up.
Well, you know, the WashingtonPost is an extremely
left-leaning publication.
It's pushed out since 2015,2016,.
Use of force police deathsthere's a thousand a year.
Medical malpractice kills ahundred thousand plus people a
year, but we don't talk aboutthat.
And then when you say athousand deaths for police, well
then you start taking out howmany people had guns, how many
people had knives, how manyattacked police officers, and
(41:48):
then you couple that with thehundreds of thousands, if not
millions, of contacts we have ayear.
We have such a minute amount ofmalfeasance in this profession.
You got to knock that stuffdown solely with logic and I
think people who are able tocritical think see that.
But one thing you know, whetherI tell my son, I've had the
opportunity of coaching football, weightlifting and girls
(42:09):
lacrosse.
So I work with young kids and Idon't hide the fact that I'm a
police officer.
I very much promote it.
I'll be honest with you.
I hope some of the kids I'vecoached lean towards that and I
got some kids with some goodtendencies.
That would I tell them.
It's a wonderful profession.
Even your worst day at somepoint in time you might get to
help somebody.
You might save somebody's life.
You're going to have lousy days.
There's a lot of downsides tothis profession.
(42:30):
You can't hide that.
That's evidenced by our divorcerates, our suicide rate, our
health rates, our mortality.
I believe for male officersit's just under 58 years old.
But I think it's important toexplain the positives is you get
to go out there.
And I firmly believe, whetheryou work in New York City or
you're in a 10 officer agencyout West, you can have the
opportunity to make the world alittle bit better by what you're
(42:51):
doing, by helping other peoplewho can't help themselves, by
defending the weak.
There's some nobility behindthat.
I still stand by that, whetherthat's a pipe dream, whether
that's me on the soapbox, but Ifirmly believe that and that's
why I'm still doing it, and I'dlike to do it for another decade
, and that's why I have zeroreservations about my son
getting onto the job, becausethat's one of the worst things
we do in this profession.
(43:12):
If you ask nine out of 10 cops,do you want your kid to get in
the job?
Nope, be a firefighter.
That's the tagline.
I love firefighting.
I think it's a very honorableprofession, but I would be
exceedingly proud if my son worea shield in four years, and I'd
support it as much as I can.
Steve Morreale (43:26):
Yeah, that's great to hear.
So, Ben.
Last question what do you do tokeep yourself current?
What do you read?
Where do you look for feeds?
How do you find out what'sgoing on?
You're responsible for training.
How do you drive some training?
What are the things that sortof keep you curious?
Ben Murphy (43:44):
One of the good things about attending SMIP we
get the perf articles daily.
Chuck Wexler puts these out.
Steve Morreale (43:51):
I'm sure you're familiar with them.
I get them too.
Ben Murphy (43:53):
Very good sources of information.
I read those.
I look for best practices.
I finished my master's degree.
I'm always looking for mepersonally to do better.
When you stop learning, youknow Dr Eric Murray always tells
me when you stop learning, youstop growing, and when you're
not growing, you're not of anyutility to your people.
I want to be a useful father.
I want to be a useful leader inmy agency.
(44:14):
I want to be a useful coach.
So anything I can read policeone articles I think are very
good.
I look at the forums and I seewhat people are teaching and
what they're learning.
Just even YouTube and you seeclips on policing and how
equipment changes have changeddramatically in my 22 plus years
.
Tactics have changed operations, the mentality of officers with
(44:35):
the community, the mentalhealth, training.
All that stuff is so importantand you have to embrace it or
you're going to get pushed tothe side in this industry.
So I think it's important andfor me that's part of my morning
routine.
I'm up at 430, Doc.
Before I go to the gym beforework.
It's part of my morning routine.
I'm up at 4.30, Doc, before Igo to the gym before work and I
spend an hour a day in themorning going through online on
the internet, what comes up, andso much of my feed is police
(44:55):
related.
Yes, and it's still interestingto me and it's stuff that I can
apply to my job.
Steve Morreale (44:59):
So the last thing I will ask you is since
you are a reader, since you arefinding these things, how do you
push that to the people whowork for you?
Do you share those things?
Do you have conversations aboutthem?
In other words, trying to helpthem understand that they can't
be complacent and they can't bestatic, that they always have to
books as well, I think if youhave that mindset of growing,
your folks growing and workingas a team.
(45:21):
If you're explaining, a newconcept.
Ben Murphy (45:22):
It'd be great if they're on the same page with
that.
So I think that's important.
And to the younger officers forour agency we very much push
education For a smaller PD.
We have a very high percentageof people with master's degrees
(45:45):
and a lot with bachelor's aswell, or vice versa.
So we continue to push themwith that educational pursuit.
But one of the things I tell theyoung officers here's a great
book that came out that I readas a rookie.
It's how to Survive LawEnforcement and that's one book
that we actually buy and provideto them when they get on the
job and say hey, listen, readthis, take the time.
This will actually unpack a lotof things that you're going to
(46:07):
come across in your career.
And one of the things that Ialways stood out for me a
chapter in the book.
It was the I used to chapter.
I used to fish, I used to go tothe gym, I used to see my
friends on a regular basis, andthat gets taken up by overtime
and sleeping.
Don't fall into the used to'sbecause, again, if you make this
job your sole life, the otherthings fall to the wayside.
(46:27):
It needs to be balanced and sothat's why I think it's
important to continue to readand have that constant
communication.
Great advice.
Steve Morreale (46:34):
Great advice from Ben Murphy, deputy chief,
down in East Windsor,Connecticut, which is between
Hartford and Springfield,Massachusetts, along Route 91.
So, Ben, thank you so much foryour time, for your energy.
You are an impressive gentleman.
I've said that before and I'mglad that I could share a person
that I know with many of thelisteners.
(46:54):
So have a good weekend and Iwill be reaching out and talking
to you.
Thank you so much.
Ben Murphy (46:58):
Thank you for your time and the opportunity.
Doc, no problem.
Steve Morreale (47:01):
Well, that is it .
That is another episode of TheCop Doc Podcast on the books.
Stand by for other episodes.
I will tell you that I justreceived an email from an
inspector in the UK whoindicated that he'd been
listening to the podcast and forevery step and every promotion
he took, he said I use thingsthat I learn from the people you
(47:23):
interview.
That's why I do it.
So, thank you, continue toreach out.
We'll be talking to otherpeople like Ben Murphy in the
future.
Have a good day, stay safe.
Intro and Outro (47:33):
Thanks for listening to The Cop Doc Podcast
with Dr Steve Morreale.
Steve is a retired lawenforcement practitioner and
manager, turned academic andscholar from Worcester State
University.
Please tune into The CopDocPodcast for regular episodes of
interviews with thought leadersin policing.
Welcome to The CopDoc Podcast.
This podcast explores policeleadership issues and innovative
ideas.
The CopDoc shares thoughts andideas as he talks with leaders
in policing communities,academia and other government
agencies.
And now please join Dr SteveMorreale and industry thought
(00:25):
leaders as they share theirinsights and experience on Tthe
CopDoc podcast.
Steve Morreale (00:33):
Hi everybody.
Steve Morreale coming to youfrom Boston today and we're
going to another New Englandstate just south of me,
Connecticut, and today we haveBen Murphy who is the deputy
chief of the East Windsor PoliceDepartment.
Hello there, Ben.
Ben Murphy (00:47):
Hey Doc, how are you sir?
Steve Morreale (00:48):
Glad to have you finally.
You were a student in a masterof science in counterterrorism
where I believe you took bothborder security and leadership.
You were previously an officerfor a long time in the acting or
interim chief in New Britain,connecticut, a bigger department
than you are now, and nowyou're in East Windsor.
Talk about how long you've been, your career and what brought
(01:11):
you to East Windsor.
Ben Murphy (01:12):
Sure.
So policing for me is somethingthat's it's more than a job.
You know we talk about it often.
You know, with leadership as aprofession, it's almost a way of
life For me.
I'm a third generation policeofficer.
Grandfather, my dad, severaluncles were all on the job.
Side note, jumping ahead here Igot an 18-year-old who's going
to college for criminal justice.
(01:33):
So I love the profession, Ilove what it stands for, but
really don't know what you'redoing.
Through high school I waslooking at maybe a firefighter,
police officer, maybe somethingsecurity or military related.
Decided somewhere along mysenior year I wanted to go for
law enforcement.
That's what I went to schoolfor.
I went for criminal justice.
Intro and Outro (01:51):
At the age of 21,.
Ben Murphy (01:52):
I was offered a conditional offer of employment
for the city of New Britain.
It was the second police test Ihad taken.
Had a couple tilted heads atthe time, because my dad and
grandfather were both statetroopers and, truth be told,
with a lot of respect to ourfriends in the state, policing
driving up and down the highwayfor at least the early onset of
my career, it didn't reallyappeal to me as a younger
(02:13):
officer.
So I took the opportunity.
I started DeRode in 2002.
I was 22 years old and I workedfor 21 and a half years for the
city of New Britain.
I held every rank and heldcommand in every division,
including patrol, criminalinvestigations and professional
standards had the opportunity.
Probably one of the things Ienjoyed most was being on a SWAT
(02:35):
team.
I served for 11 years on atactical unit as a breacher, as
a team leader and then teamcommander for three, and I
retired in July of 2023.
I served 21 and a half yearsfor the city.
As you mentioned, I had servedas an interim chief for three
months.
You kind of know your worth andyou know what your capabilities
(02:56):
are, and so I had kind of runmy course because my goal then
and continue is to serve as aleader in the agency.
If I'm capped for movement, Imight as well choose to go
elsewhere, so I elected toretire at the time.
While that was taking place, Iwas actually finishing up your
class and taking into my lastmaster's program for
counterterrorism.
Steve Morreale (03:15):
So I remember having a conversation with you
where you were telling me whatyou might want to do, what you
were going to do, what you'rethinking of doing, and that you
were going to retire and moveinto another area.
And then I remember you a fewdays or weeks later saying I've
changed my mind.
You must have the bug.
It's in you.
You say I still have somethingin the tank and I want to give
(03:37):
back.
Is that what happened?
Ben Murphy (03:39):
I had a couple of job offers that were paid very
well, paying more than what I'dbe able to make here in regards
to security directors.
But what I also found out aboutthe private industry is you're
also as good as your first bigincident and, unlike somewhat
like policing, where you cankind of position people a little
bit more, if you're a securitydirector, you may not have any
(04:01):
control over who for GARDA orCrisis 24, whomever one of these
companies is putting as yoursecurity personnel, who you're
in charge of, and so you canbuild your immediate team and
often, when there's layers belowyou, if something gets dropped,
you are not generating moneyfor most companies.
You are basically a cost to themfor security, whether we want
(04:22):
to admit it or not, and so at myage 43, now 44, I wasn't
comfortable with getting intothat area, even with a higher
paycheck.
But again, it so happened atthe same time I got offered the
current position I'm in.
I was offered the chief'sposition in Somerville,
massachusetts, the same exactday, and I had to make a
decision with my wife and kidsas to do.
I want to pursue this, whichmeans moving out of state and
(04:44):
changing up our lives, or takingthis position here, which is
completely divergent from citypolicing, is now where I'm at, a
much more rural community.
Steve Morreale (04:53):
During your time and obviously what I want to
dig into is about leadership andhow your leadership grew and
what your approaches are and howour approaches in leading as
young leaders change over time.
They actually morph.
You've been able to go to theFBI National Academy, which is
amazing, smip for PERF, seniorManagement Institute for
Policing and the SouthernPolicing Institute, so there's
(05:15):
an awful lot of training andopportunities for you to hear
from people from all over thecountry in policing.
How did that attendance helpyou frame your leadership
approach?
Ben Murphy (05:27):
So I think at first, I made sergeant in 2008.
I was just turned 28 years oldand I had a brand new squad of
young officers 21 to 24 yearsold and my philosophy back then
was lead by example, and I stillthink that that's as important
then as it is today.
But you can't just hang yourhat on that.
You need to understand yourpeople too.
(05:48):
So I got a lot more of thistraining.
We got to start taking theseDISC assessments.
You started learning about thephilosophies of leadership in
regards to when is it time to bedemocratic, when is it time to
be autocratic.
Are you a transformationalleader?
And I know they sound likebuzzwords, but when you start
digging into them, they're allapplicable and it's how you do
it.
I love the term servant leader.
(06:10):
We heard that often, I thinkwhen I was first in Southern
Police Institute in 2017, andthat really got hammered home
and expanded upon in the lastnumber of years.
For me, that's what I try tomodel myself as best is looking
at your people first, looking atthe community you serve first,
because they had somethingwritten on the wall and I echo
this as often as I can down theDNA is that leadership is a
(06:33):
choice, it's not a rank, andthat is probably the most
profound leadership quote I'veseen in my 22 and a half years
and I firmly believe that.
And so attending these schoolsand talking with professionals,
you know you learn a lot ofthings.
I made friends with a lot ofchiefs and deputies from
agencies of 20 to 2000 pluspeople and some of the bigger
ones out in California.
(06:53):
The problems that we mightencounter here in an agency I
serve now of 28 are no differentthan maybe what Bridgeport,
connecticut, you know, dealswith 400 officers.
Fort Connecticut deals with 400officers.
So leadership challenges arethe same.
Strategies often are the same,as how you implement them and to
what scale, particularly basedon your personnel and that's
something I learned is there'snot one size fits all.
Steve Morreale (07:15):
And I appreciate you echoing that, because I
believe that and the commondenominator is we're dealing
with people both inside andoutside of the organization and
there are so many mistakes thatseem to be made that get called
to the national andinternational attention.
Those should be treated, in mymind, as learning opportunities
and assessments to say, hey,look what just happened in
Illinois, look what happened inMemphis, look what happened in
(07:37):
Minneapolis.
How are we working to avoidthis from happening here?
I want to dig into something.
When you become a leader my ownexperience and your experiences
it's no longer about you, butit's about your people and how
you can develop your people andhow you can guide your people
and how you can mentor peopleand pay attention to those that
need a little bit extraattention, keep them on the
(07:58):
right path Over time.
Here you are coming from agood-sized police department.
Let's do some comparison hereNew Britain had how many
officers?
Ben Murphy (08:06):
165 sworn.
Steve Morreale (08:08):
Okay, and now you have in the 20s, 28 sworn,
okay, and obviously thepopulation is much different.
But you walk into a new place.
You've got police experience,you've got education, you've got
training, you've made yoursteps and missteps with being a
leader, but you're walking intoa place you don't know yet.
Tell us what you did and whatyour mindset was when you came
(08:31):
into this new position tosupport a chief, but to also
understand the culture of thepolice department, so that you
could understand how to approachyour leadership actions.
Ben Murphy (08:42):
I came in here understanding that kind of like
the first pillar of 21st centurypolicing.
You have to build trust andlegitimacy.
Right, we know the six pillarsof policing and the first one,
building trust and legitimacy.
Now I come in with a goodresume, right, my actions have
spoken for you know some of theaccolades good, bad and
different.
You don't serve in policing for22 plus years.
(09:04):
You don't serve as a leader inthe supervisor position for 16
plus without making missteps,but you're coming in as an
unknown and one of the majordifferences not only population
size, just for comparison froman agency of 165 sworn, where
it's much lower socioeconomicpopulation right, very poor city
compared demographically towhere I'm at now the policing
(09:27):
style and the service requiredis different.
You go from a lot of crimeprevention still citizen
engagement, community policingto direct customer service also
crime prevention and communitypolicing, and you have to weigh
that.
And so when I came in I made aconcerted effort, I wanted to
meet everybody one-on-one and Ithink the open door concept you
(09:47):
say it at face value it's kindof BS because and I say that
like this, I have no delusionthat a 23-year-old kid on
midnights, when I leave the dooropen, is going to walk into the
deputy chief's office frommidnight, wait an hour and come
talk to me, and so I make anopportunity to go and approach
them, whether it's in thelunchroom, stopping on a road
job, catching them in the lockerroom.
(10:09):
One of the great things aboutthis small agency we have a
wellness committee.
We all get together once amonth.
We go kayaking, we go running,we're going to do a hiking thing
in about two weeks.
I put my rank aside.
I'm there with the folksbecause, again, as a smaller
agency, you see everybody andthey get to know you.
I recently had the opportunity,last Saturday, of working a
(10:29):
midnight shift.
I spoke with the sergeant doingthe scheduling and they were
going to have to hold someoneover.
I said you know what?
It's been 12 years since Ipushed the black and white.
Let me go work a midnight shift.
My wife thought I was nuts.
I had a blast.
I made a drug arrest, I found acouple of suspicious people, I
did a bunch of security checks,we stopped cars and the guys get
to see me go out and do it.
I don't have to do that in nocapacity, you're leading by
(10:51):
example.
You lead by example and youbuild some credibility, and it
was enjoyable.
And so the other end of it, too, is when you start getting
involved.
I've been here long enoughwhere I've already handled a
number of IAs.
I met the union president andthe union delegates although
there's only a handfulimmediately, and I laid out my
philosophy.
I'm like listen, I got threeapproaches to discipline.
(11:12):
If there's a problem, it couldeither be performance, which we
can almost always get pastconduct abstinent, being
criminal.
We can get past it.
And then there's integrity.
If you have an integrity issue,there's not much I can do for
you there.
Let's keep it at the first twoif we have to deal with it.
But I'm going to be matter offact with you and tell you this
is what we have coming, this ishow I'm going to handle this.
There's no surprises, and thatbuilt very good bridges
(11:34):
immediately and we've beencontinuing on that since I've
been here.
Steve Morreale (11:37):
Terrific.
One of the things that I wantto do is to ask you some
questions about your approach toleadership, and you've already
enumerated a few of them, but,by the way, we're talking to Ben
Murphy.
He's the deputy chief down atEast Windsor, connecticut.
I want to talk about some ofthe things that I have learned
to do over time, and I speakabout them in many of the
trainings that I'm involved in.
(11:57):
First thing is, wheneverpossible, start with explaining
why.
What does that mean to you?
Ben Murphy (12:02):
We're seeing that today.
Just go on fake book, as myfather calls it.
Go on social media, turn on thenews.
If we don't fill the narrativeand give the explanation of why
we're doing something, peopleare going to make their own.
We see that I think we're thebiggest victims of that of all
professions in the United States.
People filling in narratives,they don't substantiate their
(12:23):
claims, whether it's use offorce, facial profiling,
training, education withofficers, the idea of a thin
blue wall Like in 2024, withtransparency cameras, policies
and training like that's a thingof the past.
But again, people are going tobelieve only what's in front of
them.
So I think with officers, youknow when you introduce a new
policy, whether it's a policy,whether it's a change in
(12:45):
directive it's not onlyexplaining the why.
But I'll even go a step further, like get them involved in the
decision.
At the very least, even if youdon't go with what they propose,
they have a say in the matterand you can explain the worst
thing.
You talked about a culture.
I walk into a new agencyregardless of my tenure on the
job and experience.
Sacred cows are big things withpeople and they don't like you
(13:06):
tipping them over.
So if they have operations acertain way on patrol, even if
they're not, if they're notreasonable or productive.
If I have to make a change, Ihave to incrementally do that.
I can't come in the nextmorning and say we're doing it
this way, x, y, z.
I want to tell them why and getmy bosses on board to be
surrogates of my message,because if I go out there and
(13:28):
just say it to them, well thenthat's just being almost like a
dictator.
I'm blanket changing this,whereas if I get my lieutenants,
my sergeants, to understand andbuy in, then they're providing
my message for me and they'reessentially my surrogates.
Steve Morreale (13:48):
That's, I think, how you get better buy-in.
It's interesting that you saythat because it seems to me that
when somebody in your tenureand my tenure, somebody is
driving an idea through you thatyou have to go through and tell
people we're going to do this,isn't it better, if you
understand the why, in order toexplain the why down the line?
Ben Murphy (14:01):
Yes, a hundred percent%.
And I think being open forquestions, explaining that is
too.
Don't just go to roll call andsay, hey, we're going to start
doing this for check-ins orwe're going to start handling
investigations this way.
Here's why we're doing it, andyou might have some dissension.
You might have it from theperson who's just comfortable
with being a note taker, andunfortunately you get that in
(14:22):
every agency, right?
I'm just using it the example.
If we're going to do above andbeyond, you have some officers
who are note takers, you havethose who are on the precipice
of excelling in their career andyou got others who are already
your high performers.
That's maybe going to changethe tone of how they're doing
their job, but answering thequestions for them and saying
this is the positive reasons whywe're doing this, whether it's
(14:42):
a state mandate, whether it's abest practice in the industry or
whether it's suited for youragency, everything that works
here in the East Windsor PoliceDepartment may not work to our
neighboring town of SouthWindsor, based on their
demographics, their business,their stakeholders, and so I
think getting their buy-in andtheir feedback goes along with
that.
Why?
Steve Morreale (15:01):
I got to agree with you there.
It also seems to me, and assergeants, lieutenants and
captains are listening from allover the world to the podcast,
it strikes me that no matterwhat the agency, we have A, b
and C players, in some casessome D players, except when you
were in the SWAT team, let's saywe are not handed an all-star
team.
You know that that happenedeven on your midnights with the
(15:24):
young bucks that were working inEast Windsor.
So the leader or the supervisorinherits a group of people that
are at different levels.
You understand I think you justaddressed that.
But since we don't have anall-star team, how do you work
with identifying informalleaders to kind of push out
ideas to help people understandthe job the way it should be
(15:46):
done?
Talk about that, ben.
Ben Murphy (15:48):
When you're at the level of a deputy or a chief,
you have to rely heavily on thefact, or at least the belief,
that your sergeants andlieutenants have gotten to know
and grew their people.
One thing, and I kind of wantto walk back something not walk
back, but kind of revisit thefact of chiefs and deputies make
an awful lot of impactfuldecisions, but to a young
(16:09):
officer the sergeant is theirworld.
Steve Morreale (16:11):
The sergeant's the boss.
The sergeant's the boss, noquestion.
Ben Murphy (16:13):
They're the boss.
If you're brand new in theneighborhood and you can only
see the end of your road, that'syour sergeant, that's what your
life revolves around, and theyaround and they have such an
impactful way of changing thetrajectory of a young officer's
career.
And so I expect my sergeants tonot only work with but know
personally their officers.
Now, that doesn't mean theyhave to go out and have beers or
(16:35):
invite each other overChristmas dinner, but you should
know if somebody's mom is sick,somebody re-enrolled in college
, somebody's getting marrieddown the road?
Are they having troublefinancially?
And I think that goes back toagain starting with the
mentoring programs we run beingable to help those out.
But you get to know from yoursupervisors you have to rely on
them.
Based on our paramilitarystructure, who are your informal
(16:58):
leaders?
I can tell you from my agency.
I have a senior corporal.
He is 20 years on the job, hehas a lot of juice here and he
is an outstanding police officer.
I like to work with him to getthings done through patrol,
amongst other things.
I identified him.
So again, he's one click aboveofficer but he carries a lot of
weight with people in the lockerroom on the road.
I know I identified a month onhim.
(17:20):
That's a guy that they go tobecause he's very good at his
job.
He's very good with thecitizens, but he's very
comfortable where he's at withhis rank and I understand that
some people don't want more of aburden on their shoulders with
the position.
But what I do is that's a guywho I'm going to bring into the
fold.
So, like for us, for example,we're bringing on six or seven
new vehicles in the next year.
For an agency our size, that'squite a bit.
(17:42):
He handles our vehicles.
We give him the chief,basically grants him almost full
autonomy to order vehicles,purchase vehicles, outfit them,
keeping us in the loop, and thatgoes over well.
So you keep someone like thatin good graces.
So I think this goes back to anI&O book I read for my
sergeant's exam in 2008.
You give someone a degree ofauthority, you give them
(18:05):
parameters so they don't failand they don't get hurt in the
process If they do well you givethem credit.
If it goes sideways, you own itas a book.
Steve Morreale (18:12):
Yeah, well, you know, and that's interesting.
You say, like the book andIononi is a book that I read in
1975, for goodness sakes, Ithink it's still being written,
but the guy died a long time ago, so somebody else is writing it
for sure.
But I think you're right, andthere's a difference between
book smarts and street smarts,and I know that.
You know that.
It seems to me that a leader isabout developing others and
(18:33):
creating opportunities for anagency to be sustained through
its peoples, but also not imposeyour own singular ideas, but
look for other feedback so thatyour own point of view grows.
I'm sure that's happened, sotalk about that, unless I'm
striking out.
Ben Murphy (18:51):
So I think one of the things I'm tasked with in my
current position is beingoperations commander, right,
essentially all things day today, whether it's patrol,
training, cid.
I'm tasked with making surethat's keeping running.
And one of the things I like todo is, if I identify something
which I might perceive as anissue or hey, is there a better
way of doing business, I pull inthat sergeant or lieutenant, I
(19:13):
pull in that detective sergeantand say what can we do better?
I'm going to go with yourrecommendation because your
boot's on the ground.
I'm not investigating therobbery of the gas station.
I'm not investigating thedomestic violence call we just
went to.
So do you have a better way?
And again, I'm going to givethem credit and I'm going to
(19:34):
follow their advice.
You know, I think that goes backto again as a leader showing
some kind of humility and thatunfortunately gets conflated
often with weakness.
I think humility is a strength,saying I don't know or I'm
willing to acquiesce to what youthink is better because you
have the better practice, notadvocating my responsibility At
the end of the day it falls onmy shoulders, but I'm going to
(19:57):
lean on you and what you thinkis best for this and if I agree
with that and I see it'sreasonable, then we're going to
go with it.
And again, I think that getsgoing back to the why you get
better buy-in from folks too.
They feel comfortable thatyou're going to do that.
I think the key where we dropthe ball often as leaders is we
don't follow through on it.
We don't follow through if wesay, hey, we're going to do the
(20:17):
new way of handling schoolcheck-ins based on your
recommendation, and we end upnot.
But I think getting peopleinvolved and getting them on the
bus is important and keepingthem there as well.
Steve Morreale (20:35):
Think about the evolution from the time you were
a sergeant on to lieutenant andon and on and on, and the
changes that you had toundertake to understand and
practice.
Your leadership was differentas a sergeant than as his deputy
and a chief, but talk aboutthat evolution and how long it
took and how many missteps alongthe way.
Making an assumption, maybe younever had a misstep, but I'd be
(20:55):
curious about that.
Ben Murphy (20:56):
Again for working in a larger agency.
I worked for some of the most Ihad leaders at the time I'd
walk through hell with gas bootsfor because I knew that they
advocated for me.
I go back to when I was a youngofficer and in 2004, I came in
second place with a Buick on myHarley Davidson.
Broken bones tore up my faceand arms.
(21:17):
I had a sergeant pick up myfiancee then wife, drive her
code one to the hospital.
I had another sergeant of mineshow up at my house the next day
mowing my yard.
I had another check and I meanthey didn't have to do that.
So that was the world to me.
Those were the people who setmy impression on policing.
I also worked for somesupervisors who were not good,
(21:37):
moral, ethical people.
Literally, you bring in anarrest and they didn't want
anything to do with bookingbecause they didn't think it was
a just arrest or you would behandling a situation and they'd
run two clicks above their rankwithout having a conversation
with you to try to well, I'mgoing to try to distance myself
from this problem withoutexplaining whether we had a
probable cause, whether it was ajust arrest or there was a use
(21:59):
of force and these are peopleyou know.
Again I wouldn't let in myhouse to let my dog out, let
alone emulate after them forleadership.
You learn that Again.
I worked for people.
I worked for bosses, captainswho did certain things where I
would never want to be treatedlike that again, or nor do I
want to treat my people.
Steve Morreale (22:17):
So, if I can interject here, it seems to me
what you're saying in the longway is that we have bosses that
are good and bad, and we learnwhat to do and what not to do,
what to emulate and what toavoid.
Fair.
Ben Murphy (22:28):
Correct.
And again, you know one of thethings I think we do very poorly
in this profession,particularly chiefs and deputies
, and this may not be supportedhow somebody conducted
themselves, but they don't havethe fortitude to stand by that
when their feet get held to thefire.
And I think that's where youlose credibility with your men
(23:01):
and women.
Steve Morreale (23:02):
Your character is all you got to stand by at
the end of the day.
So they talk about it but theydon't act on it.
Ben Murphy (23:07):
Yes, it's words, not actions, and I think, if that's
the type of leader that you are, I'd have a hard time sleeping
at night if I'm going to say onething and do anything other
with the people who are watchingme, because one thing I've
learned from a sergeant all theway up people are always
watching you.
Yes, no matter what you do, youwant to find out who's watching
you.
Go on your LinkedIn account onyour premium, and it shows you
(23:27):
who's clicking your views everysingle time, and it's very
interesting to see the peoplewho are seeing what you're doing
, because there's a bigdifference that people checking
on how you're doing and whatyou're doing.
The first care about you andyour family.
The second wants to keep up onwhat you're doing.
Steve Morreale (23:42):
Big difference.
Yeah, and that's an interestingperspective, because I'm sure
that you have lived in policingwhere, because of your abilities
, because of your likability,because of your efforts to make
changes in the proper way, thereare people who accept you and
embrace you and love having youas partner, and there's others
that are threatened by you.
Ben Murphy (24:02):
I think at this point in my life and in my
career, right stands on its ownmerit.
A very good friend of mine, whowas a strongly religious man
the DNA, said that.
He said that in his Mississippiaccent to me.
He said Ben rot stands on itsown merit, and that's as true
today as it ever will be.
And so if you believe in whatyou're doing is just and there's
a better cause, then there's noreason to push forward with
(24:24):
that.
And honestly, if you let theopinion of others craft how you
live your life, whether it'swith your personal family, with
your work family, I think you'rea weak individual.
For me it's.
Here are my beliefs, here aremy convictions, and we're going
to do this.
I'm very fortunate now whereI'm serving under a chief who's
also a good friend of mine.
We went to the NA together.
We attended SMIP and SPI alltogether.
Steve Morreale (24:46):
Isn't that something?
Ben Murphy (24:48):
But the good thing is his background is very
heavily on criminalinvestigations, so when it comes
to operations, training tacticsreally wasn't his wheelhouse.
Let's me handle the things.
Obviously, I keep him wellinformed of what's going on, but
we work as a team and I thinkwhen you do that I think you
have a much better runningorganization and I think people
see that and appreciate that too.
Steve Morreale (25:10):
Well, we're having a deep conversation on
policing and leadership andorganization and culture with
Ben Murphy.
He's the deputy chief down inEast Windsor, connecticut.
He is somebody who is, I assume, a lifelong learner.
But I want to talk about yourbelief, about being a lifelong
learner and realizing that youdon't know everything and
(25:30):
sometimes, many times, you don'tknow what you don't know.
Ben Murphy (25:33):
Right now for me, doc, a concern, and I ask all my
sergeants and lieutenants whoare our next sergeants and
lieutenants and this newgeneration wants to work, have
their time off, but they don'tunderstand that pushing the
black and white for 20 years isa long career.
So it's incumbent upon us topush down the importance and the
utility of being a supervisorand how to impact change,
(25:54):
because if you're not in thatposition, you're not going to be
able to make those changes.
Steve Morreale (25:57):
So, Ben, as I intimated, Mike Marquardt and
Bob Tiede wrote a book which Ireally enjoy, and it's called
Leading with Questions, and itstrikes me in this way that when
we are investigators, we learnhow to ask questions, and the
really big thing with askingquestions is ask the questions
and shut up, let the otherperson talk.
I don't know that all leadersdo this, but I'm curious to know
(26:19):
whether you feel that you leadwith questions, that you're in
meetings and are posingquestions that are probative,
that are curious, that almostpush the envelope to innovation
and creativity, in other words,thinking about new ways to do
things.
Talk about that.
Ben Murphy (26:36):
I think you need to decide what type of meeting
you're hosting in the firstplace.
If it's something along thelines of explaining the why,
going back to that question,that needs to be more of a forum
discussion.
I believe staff meetingsalthough it's important to get
your messages out, yourexpectations, your objectives
that needs to be a forumdiscussion.
You need to discuss with folkslike here's what I'm seeing from
(26:58):
my seat I sit behind the deskall day.
You folks are on the road,you're investigating the
follow-ups and the CID.
What am I missing?
Do I have a skewed view?
Am I accurate?
And if there is a problem, well, how do we come to a conclusion
?
I need folks to understand.
For example, if I'm looking tochange the dynamic of how we're
growing our younger officers,here are my recommendations.
(27:19):
Why aren't you doing it?
Has it been poor modeling?
Do you not know how to do it ordo you not want to do it?
Either way, it's a problem thatneeds to get fixed, but I'd
like to hear that consensus.
Another thing I learned veryintently and I learned this from
one of my sergeants early on inmy career who ended up becoming
a captain and then a colleague,and then shortly a subordinate
before he retired was be verycareful.
(27:41):
What you consider a door toconversation.
There's not too many thingsthat are technically off the
record.
You can't start off having aone-on-one with somebody and say
, hey, this is Ben to Steve, andthen you say something that I
disagree with and I put on mysupervisor hat.
You can't do that.
You've already basically setthe table for it being informal.
That also goes in line where asif that doesn't really generally
(28:03):
go towards progressivediscipline.
So you need to different folksas well.
This goes back to understandingwith like the whole disc
assessment and knowing yourpeople.
Can you have a door to withsomebody?
I can tell you through mycareer, there are a number of
guys who I served with on SWATwho I could probably have a door
to, whereas maybe certain otherpeople on patrol I wouldn't
dream of doing that because themessage wouldn't get across as
(28:26):
such.
So I think having them having asay as well, that kind of goes
back to the whole concept ofprocedural justice, letting
people have a voice.
I think your employees need tohave a say too.
Steve Morreale (28:36):
So what you're saying.
So there's two things I want tosay.
So you're talking aboutprocedural justice and you just
applied it to the internal useof procedural justice, right,
which a lot of people arebeginning to talk about, but
they don't necessarily.
If we don't treat our peoplewell inside and they go out and
mistreat people outside, are weto blame, right?
In other words, if they don'tleave here having hope.
You know, I just got my asschewed out, but I have some hope
(28:57):
.
You know that I can go out anddo the job and I'm not going to
get penalized, otherwise I'mgetting yelled at or screamed at
, no different than gettingyelled at or screamed at by my
mother, my father, your spouse.
It carries outside.
So I like that use ofprocedural justice that you just
suggested.
But before you move too fardown the road on that, explain
(29:18):
what you mean by door two.
Not all players are going tounderstand what you mean by that
.
Ben Murphy (29:21):
Sure.
So I think door two is thatthis is an unofficial counseling
session.
This is an unofficial come toJesus, as I had one boss used to
say to me, basically sayingwe're talking about something
you did, we're not going topaper on that.
Don't do that again, don't makeme have this conversation again
.
Not everybody is going torespect or appreciate that and
(29:43):
others might take offense tothat and also understand that
when you do that and somebodydoes that again.
Steve Morreale (29:53):
You can't use what you just conducted the
informal unofficial conversationright?
Ben Murphy (29:55):
That has to be extremely, scrupulously
considered if you're going to betalking to somebody on that.
I'm not an advocate of puttingeverything on paper.
There's certain things that youcan handle internally, but at
the same time, you have tounderstand is what is the
liability?
What is the impact on theofficer?
Is this going to change theirbehavior?
So all those things need to beconsidered.
(30:16):
It's not just a one size fitsall.
Steve Morreale (30:18):
That's a little bit of situational leadership
too, because some people aregoing to accept that, like you
just said, without any problemand others are going to run to
the union and say I know whathe's going to do.
He's setting me up, it's thatkind of stuff.
No, it was meant to be informal, and sometimes those informal
conversations can bite you inthe ass because they're
misinterpreted, misunderstoodand they're then turned around
and used on you.
You're shaking your head, soyou understand that.
(30:40):
So it's got to be the rightperson, right that you're doing
the informal work with.
Ben Murphy (30:43):
Yes, and I think also our employees.
They want it both ways.
I feel the same way.
You want a boss who's notcapricious.
Right, someday you come in andthis guy is dropping the hammers
to hell, and the next day it'soh hey, you know we're holding
hands and singing.
You know show tunes,everything's good.
You have to be consistent and Ithink that that's what bosses
(31:04):
like you know.
Again, I said this beginning Doc, I'm a third-generation police
officer.
I'm unapologetically pro-police.
That doesn't mean I have lowstandards.
My standards for cops arehigher than probably most of the
hating liberal media who maynot like us on certain things.
My standards are very high formy officers, but I'm going to
defend them until I can't defendthem.
There's where a big differenceis and I think when people
(31:26):
understand that and believe that, I think that's where you have
that much better relationshipand I think that's important.
As a leader, you have tosupport your people.
You have to believe thatthey're out there doing the best
of intentions, because 99.9% ofus are out there doing that.
When you do that and youractions support that, I think
that's where you get that goodfollowership.
Steve Morreale (31:45):
So, as you, we use the word sometimes.
Leadership isn't misunderstood.
I don't think you misunderstandit, but management and
leadership are two differentthings.
And a leader has to manage.
There's no question about that.
But the leader has to think big, has to think down the road,
has to think broader, has tokeep banging the gong about, in
my mind, improving theorganization and, as a byproduct
(32:07):
of improving the organization,one of our jobs is to improve
our people, to give peopleopportunities, new opportunities
, to talk with them about whatyou see in them.
You just said that you'reasking your supervisors who the
next sergeants and lieutenantsmight be.
That's an interestingperspective, because you're
asking, closer to the road,closer to the work, who do you
(32:29):
see that has potential?
How does that work?
Ben Murphy (32:32):
Well, I think it's important.
If you truly like and respectthe organization and I'll even
go a little bit more global, ifyou will if the profession
you're not going to be in thisprofession, there's a timeline
for all of us to hang up ourduty belts.
And if you truly care about theplace and the people, well,
someone's going to fill yourseat.
That's one thing often I thinkpeople forget so quickly is
(32:54):
we're not just a number, butyour seat never gets cold.
Someone's chomping at the bitto get your seat.
So who are the next peoplethere and who are the right
people for there?
Are we going to promotesomebody who's a good test taker
or do we have somebody who's aleader who could maybe use a
little bit more mentoring andcoaching to get them up to where
they can be, because they'remissing aspects of that portion
(33:14):
of their job?
So I think that's vital for thehealth of any organization to
have a good succession plan andto grow your people.
Underneath you there's a verypopular chief in the state of
Connecticut who just retiredChief Brian Gould.
And Chief Gould said to me oncehe goes you know, as a chief of
an organization, if you takecare of your people and those
people take care of the mission,then the mission takes care of
(33:34):
itself.
And I thought that was ratherprofound.
You take care of your folks.
You grow the right people.
They're going to do the rightthings.
That makes your job that mucheasier and that helps continue
and flourish and move forwardwith your agency.
I'm sure you can attest to ittoo.
There's people of rank.
You know the old I believe.
It's correct me if I'm wrong.
Steve Morreale (33:53):
The Peter principle.
Ben Murphy (33:57):
They shouldn't have been where they're at and they
don't know how to be supervisors.
Steve Morreale (34:06):
We want to grow the right people for the right
reasons.
So what's your take oneverything that's swirling
around for policing and whetherwe're moving back to center
along the way?
Even small departments lostsome public sentiment because of
what other people did.
I intimated earlier about usingsituations that crop up in the
field that bring disrepute topolicing and how we, I think, as
a profession, need to sit withour people to talk about that,
(34:29):
to assess that in some cases,monday morning quarterback even
though we're Monday morningquarterbacking a colleague how
do you see it going?
Is it working better?
Is it all about relationships?
Think about back to New Britainand how important relationships
were with all the neighborhoodsand now in East Windsor with
the different segments.
Tell me your thoughts aboutthat.
Ben Murphy (34:51):
So I think you need to set expectations from the
beginning.
One of the things you know Itell any rookie cop.
I explain this to my18-year-old son, who's
potentially going to be lookingto get on the job in three, four
years Law enforcement is apendulum.
We are also political football.
During the George Floydincident, we were the jackbooted
thugs of the world.
(35:11):
January 6th took place and wewere the heroes of the nation
and fill in the gap.
Steve Morreale (35:16):
Yeah 9-11 happened and we were amazing and
we loved America.
Ben Murphy (35:20):
And so that's always going to happen, and I don't
think it's going away in your ormy lifetime because of the
proliferation of social media,and so what I think is important
is again going back to fillingin the narrative and providing
education on what we do.
I have no scientific way ofsubstantiating this.
I'd say 90% of the communitydoes not know what we do, what
(35:43):
we're allowed to do, how wetrain and why we do what we do.
So that's where your communitypolicing comes in.
We've recently just ran aCitizens Academy.
Steve Morreale (35:51):
I saw that.
I saw that on LinkedIn.
Yes, I did see that.
Ben Murphy (35:54):
And we had huge turnout and it was incredible
how many people were involvedand learned so much and we got
rave reviews and they weren'tall there yet as waving thin
blue line flags.
I had a handful of people atthe very beginning.
They were very standoffish butthey wanted to know about what
we did, programs like that we'restarting.
Actually part of my afternoontoday here is finishing up.
(36:16):
We're putting together a CERTteam, a Citizen Emergency
Response Team.
Steve Morreale (36:19):
Oh, great.
Ben Murphy (36:20):
Getting people involved.
So when they serve as our forcemultiplier and serve in
emergency situations, going tothe senior center and talking to
the seniors, working withpolice explorer programs or
police athletic leagues andworking with kids All of those
are so important because you getto impart a little bit of what
we do, but they also are notbeing force-fed.
(36:42):
That you know.
Again, it is us versus them.
If you have an us versus themattitude in law enforcement,
it's time to retire.
Those days are long, long gone.
There's not any model ofpolicing which anybody supports
anymore and it'scounterproductive.
I think getting people involvedand getting the people from the
communities involved and takingsome accountability for their
neighborhoods and stuff too,that was a big thing which
(37:03):
sometimes that big A word scaressome folks.
You need to take accountabilityfor your actions, for your
neighborhood, which meanscalling us, reporting things,
adhering to the laws orordinances which do apply to you
, but again, being seen assomebody who's a part of your
community.
I don't currently live in EastWindsor, but I am absolutely a
part of this community.
(37:23):
I didn't live in the city ofNew Britain.
I was absolutely part of thatcommunity.
I'm an integral part of thatcommunity and that's why I want
people to see me and theofficers?
Because, frankly, if you're outthere eight to 16 hours a day
pushing the black and white orserving in the schools and SRO,
you're seeing the people in thiscommunity likely more than your
family during your working week.
It's the way it is.
Steve Morreale (37:44):
So I think we do a poor job.
You probably are workingtowards improving that.
It's a poor job of humanizingour job, of patting people on
the back, of pushing officers tomake friends.
I mean, enforce the law whennecessary, but to make friends.
And, ben, as we talk aboutpolicing and we're talking
generally, people who listen arein the business.
(38:05):
Law enforcement is just a piece, a small piece of policing
right the communityunderstanding collaboration with
other organizations, withsocial service agencies, I mean,
with the rise of mental healthissues, having some clinicians
that are available to help usthrough those kinds of things.
The world is changing andpolicing is trying to change.
(38:25):
What are you seeing happeningand how do you humanize the work
of your police officers?
Ben Murphy (38:31):
One of the things that we haven't done a great job
in most of my career and I'mseeing the tide change is
utilizing social media and mediato our advantage.
They're not our enemy, we can'tavoid it.
When I got on the job and therewas a homicide, they would
report on it at 5 and then theywould report on it at 11 and
(38:52):
then first thing in the morning.
Nowadays it's being livestreamed before the first
officer puts his car in park.
So getting out in front of thatand being able to be open and
honest as much as you can,without tipping our hat to
investigations, investigations,but to humanize us using the
social media.
I'm going to take a quote froma good friend of mine, Quentin
(39:13):
Williams, who runs a 501c3dedication to community.
Steve Morreale (39:14):
I saw that.
Yeah, I want to talk.
I want to hear about that.
Ben Murphy (39:16):
Yes, Quentin is a very good friend and mentor of
mine, but he always said copsdon't like spiking the football.
But we have to because we needto put out there when the
officer stops and throws afootball with a kid, we need to
put out there when the officerstops and throws a football with
a kid.
We need to put out there if weare hosting a ice cream social,
because if we're not, that'sbeing overtaken by the guy
living in mom's basement who'ssaying police tactics, police
(39:38):
officers, we need to abolish XYZ.
We're awful human beings.
That's going out thereunfiltered.
So we need to be able to pushout good information and
accurate information on aregular basis.
And so, again, working in thecurrent community I'm at where
we don't have the overwhelmingcalls for service bogging us
down.
I stress to the officers getinto the park, go to the public
(40:02):
swimming area, stop at the skatepark.
I don't care if you say, hey,I'm offline doing some
direct-to-patrol and you'reshooting hoops with a kid, keep
your radio on, but they'reseeing you.
And that's so important because, again, as much as I still say,
this is a profession, it's nota job.
The uniform comes off andpeople need to understand that
you're still.
You know I'm a dad, I'm a coach.
Those are the most importantthings in my life.
(40:24):
This substantiates mylivelihood and I love what I do,
but the community needs to seepart of that as well.
Steve Morreale (40:30):
So we're talking to Ben Murphy and he is a
deputy chief in East Windsor,connecticut, and we're getting
ready to begin to wind downpolicing as it is today.
You tell me earlier that yourson is entertaining being the
fourth generation by going to acriminal justice program in
college.
So that implies that you aresupporting your own flesh and
(40:52):
blood to come into the business.
How do you speak to youngpeople about considering
policing, given all thenegativity?
But there's such positivitythat we can sell?
How do you do that?
How do you sell it?
Ben Murphy (41:03):
So I think, as difficult as it is, you can't
say cancel out the noise, you'renot going to be able to do that
but you combat things.
You know, one of the thingsI've learned, doc, from going
through my master's program andbeing in school for almost seven
years between bachelor's andmaster's back to back is to
critically think.
And there's a big differencebetween anecdotal beliefs and
empirical evidence saying let'stalk about use of force, please
(41:26):
go out and beat people up.
Well, you know, the WashingtonPost is an extremely
left-leaning publication.
It's pushed out since 2015,2016,.
Use of force police deathsthere's a thousand a year.
Medical malpractice kills ahundred thousand plus people a
year, but we don't talk aboutthat.
And then when you say athousand deaths for police, well
then you start taking out howmany people had guns, how many
people had knives, how manyattacked police officers, and
(41:48):
then you couple that with thehundreds of thousands, if not
millions, of contacts we have ayear.
We have such a minute amount ofmalfeasance in this profession.
You got to knock that stuffdown solely with logic and I
think people who are able tocritical think see that.
But one thing you know, whetherI tell my son, I've had the
opportunity of coaching football, weightlifting and girls
(42:09):
lacrosse.
So I work with young kids and Idon't hide the fact that I'm a
police officer.
I very much promote it.
I'll be honest with you.
I hope some of the kids I'vecoached lean towards that and I
got some kids with some goodtendencies.
That would I tell them.
It's a wonderful profession.
Even your worst day at somepoint in time you might get to
help somebody.
You might save somebody's life.
You're going to have lousy days.
There's a lot of downsides tothis profession.
(42:30):
You can't hide that.
That's evidenced by our divorcerates, our suicide rate, our
health rates, our mortality.
I believe for male officersit's just under 58 years old.
But I think it's important toexplain the positives is you get
to go out there.
And I firmly believe, whetheryou work in New York City or
you're in a 10 officer agencyout West, you can have the
opportunity to make the world alittle bit better by what you're
(42:51):
doing, by helping other peoplewho can't help themselves, by
defending the weak.
There's some nobility behindthat.
I still stand by that, whetherthat's a pipe dream, whether
that's me on the soapbox, but Ifirmly believe that and that's
why I'm still doing it, and I'dlike to do it for another decade
, and that's why I have zeroreservations about my son
getting onto the job, becausethat's one of the worst things
we do in this profession.
(43:12):
If you ask nine out of 10 cops,do you want your kid to get in
the job?
Nope, be a firefighter.
That's the tagline.
I love firefighting.
I think it's a very honorableprofession, but I would be
exceedingly proud if my son worea shield in four years, and I'd
support it as much as I can.
Steve Morreale (43:26):
Yeah, that's great to hear.
So, Ben.
Last question what do you do tokeep yourself current?
What do you read?
Where do you look for feeds?
How do you find out what'sgoing on?
You're responsible for training.
How do you drive some training?
What are the things that sortof keep you curious?
Ben Murphy (43:44):
One of the good things about attending SMIP we
get the perf articles daily.
Chuck Wexler puts these out.
Steve Morreale (43:51):
I'm sure you're familiar with them.
I get them too.
Ben Murphy (43:53):
Very good sources of information.
I read those.
I look for best practices.
I finished my master's degree.
I'm always looking for mepersonally to do better.
When you stop learning, youknow Dr Eric Murray always tells
me when you stop learning, youstop growing, and when you're
not growing, you're not of anyutility to your people.
I want to be a useful father.
I want to be a useful leader inmy agency.
(44:14):
I want to be a useful coach.
So anything I can read policeone articles I think are very
good.
I look at the forums and I seewhat people are teaching and
what they're learning.
Just even YouTube and you seeclips on policing and how
equipment changes have changeddramatically in my 22 plus years
.
Tactics have changed operations, the mentality of officers with
(44:35):
the community, the mentalhealth, training.
All that stuff is so importantand you have to embrace it or
you're going to get pushed tothe side in this industry.
So I think it's important andfor me that's part of my morning
routine.
I'm up at 430, Doc.
Before I go to the gym beforework.
It's part of my morning routine.
I'm up at 4.30, Doc, before Igo to the gym before work and I
spend an hour a day in themorning going through online on
the internet, what comes up, andso much of my feed is police
(44:55):
related.
Yes, and it's still interestingto me and it's stuff that I can
apply to my job.
Steve Morreale (44:59):
So the last thing I will ask you is since
you are a reader, since you arefinding these things, how do you
push that to the people whowork for you?
Do you share those things?
Do you have conversations aboutthem?
In other words, trying to helpthem understand that they can't
be complacent and they can't bestatic, that they always have to
books as well, I think if youhave that mindset of growing,
your folks growing and workingas a team.
(45:21):
If you're explaining, a newconcept.
Ben Murphy (45:22):
It'd be great if they're on the same page with
that.
So I think that's important.
And to the younger officers forour agency we very much push
education For a smaller PD.
We have a very high percentageof people with master's degrees
(45:45):
and a lot with bachelor's aswell, or vice versa.
So we continue to push themwith that educational pursuit.
But one of the things I tell theyoung officers here's a great
book that came out that I readas a rookie.
It's how to Survive LawEnforcement and that's one book
that we actually buy and provideto them when they get on the
job and say hey, listen, readthis, take the time.
This will actually unpack a lotof things that you're going to
(46:07):
come across in your career.
And one of the things that Ialways stood out for me a
chapter in the book.
It was the I used to chapter.
I used to fish, I used to go tothe gym, I used to see my
friends on a regular basis, andthat gets taken up by overtime
and sleeping.
Don't fall into the used to'sbecause, again, if you make this
job your sole life, the otherthings fall to the wayside.
(46:27):
It needs to be balanced and sothat's why I think it's
important to continue to readand have that constant
communication.
Great advice.
Steve Morreale (46:34):
Great advice from Ben Murphy, deputy chief,
down in East Windsor,Connecticut, which is between
Hartford and Springfield,Massachusetts, along Route 91.
So, Ben, thank you so much foryour time, for your energy.
You are an impressive gentleman.
I've said that before and I'mglad that I could share a person
that I know with many of thelisteners.
(46:54):
So have a good weekend and Iwill be reaching out and talking
to you.
Thank you so much.
Ben Murphy (46:58):
Thank you for your time and the opportunity.
Doc, no problem.
Steve Morreale (47:01):
Well, that is it .
That is another episode of TheCop Doc Podcast on the books.
Stand by for other episodes.
I will tell you that I justreceived an email from an
inspector in the UK whoindicated that he'd been
listening to the podcast and forevery step and every promotion
he took, he said I use thingsthat I learn from the people you
(47:23):
interview.
That's why I do it.
So, thank you, continue toreach out.
We'll be talking to otherpeople like Ben Murphy in the
future.
Have a good day, stay safe.
Intro and Outro (47:33):
Thanks for listening to The Cop Doc Podcast
with Dr Steve Morreale.
Steve is a retired lawenforcement practitioner and
manager, turned academic andscholar from Worcester State
University.
Please tune into The CopDocPodcast for regular episodes of
interviews with thought leadersin policing.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com