November 26, 2024 • 48 mins
Season 7 - The CopDoc Podcast - Episode 142
What does it take to lead a police department in a city as unique as Framingham, Massachusetts? Join us for an insightful conversation with Chief Lester Baker as he shares his journey from hoping to get to the NFL to Chief of Police. Discover how Framingham's distinct demographic, including a large Brazilian community and significant drug trafficking issues, shape the challenges faced by the department. Chief Baker reveals how innovative programs like jail-diversion and the co-response model integrate clinicians within the police force, enhancing community engagement and response.
Effective communication is the cornerstone of Chief Baker's leadership strategy. He discusses the importance of transparency and proactive dialogue within the department to combat misinformation and build trust. By sharing insights on the implementation of body-worn cameras and the impact of feedback on policy development, Chief Baker highlights the need for adaptability and creativity in modern policing. We also touch on the balance between reform and progress, emphasizing how feedback plays a critical role in shaping effective policies.
Leadership development and collaboration in social services are pivotal themes in our conversation. Chief Baker reflects on the necessity of mentoring and empowering new officers to cultivate leadership potential and ensure a culture of continuous growth. The integration of mental health professionals into police work is discussed as a strategic approach to addressing complex situations, despite challenges like limited funding. Through collaboration and innovation, Chief Baker aims to navigate the evolving landscape of policing, ensuring his department remains responsive to the community's needs.
Contact us: copdoc.podcast@gmail.com
Website: www.copdocpodcast.com
If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at stephen.morreale@gmail.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Intro/Outro (00:02):
Welcome to The CopDoc Podcast.
This podcast explores policeleadership issues and innovative
ideas.
The CopDoc shares thoughts andideas as he talks with leaders
in policing communities,academia and other government
agencies.
And now please join Dr SteveMorreale and industry thought
(00:25):
leaders as they share theirinsights and experience on the
CopDoc podcast.
Steve Morreale (00:50):
Hey everybody, steve Morreale coming to you
from South Carolina today andwe're starting another episode
of the Cop Talk podcast, andtoday we get to talk to a
colleague of mine fromFramingham Mass Police
Department, the Chief of Police,Llester Baker, and he is
attending a meeting and so he'stalking to me in a car.
But whatever it takes Lesterright, so good morning.
Lester Baker (01:05):
Good morning, Dr Morreale.
How are you?
And first I would like toapologize because the private
room that I was going to havefor this meeting wasn't very
private a lot of noise.
Steve Morreale (01:12):
So one thing in policing we learn is that we
have to adapt right and overcome, and that's what we're doing
here, as I said.
So we've been the chief ofpolice of a former town of
Framingham, now the city ofFramingham, and what I'd like to
do is to explain to theaudience.
First, I'll talk about whereFramingham is.
Framingham is about what, wouldyou say, 25 minutes from Boston
(01:34):
.
Lester Baker (01:35):
Yes, 25 minutes west of Boston West of Boston
and it's a good-sized city.
Steve Morreale (01:39):
So let's talk about the agency and your city
first, Lester.
Lester Baker (01:42):
Absolutely so.
Yeah, framingham is a city, aswe said, west of Boston 75,000
population documented.
We have a very largeundocumented population.
We have one of the largestBrazilian populations, probably
in the US, right there inFramingham.
We were a town, came a city in2018.
(02:02):
Police department is 136 sworn.
I've been the chief now forfour years.
Our city we have a very seriousdrug issue, drug problem there
fentanyl.
If you think of the hub ofdrugs that come into the
Commonwealth of Mass, you thinkof the pipeline from New York to
Springfield, to Worcester, toFramingham, to Boston and
running north and south.
So we do have our fair share.
One of the best things I taughtabout my agency is our
geo-diversion program and thatafforded me the opportunity to
travel with you to Ireland.
For over 20 years, theFrickmanham Police Department
(02:24):
has been engaged in co-responseand if you're not familiar with
co-response, co-response ispartnering with a clinician,
basically embedded into thepolice department and when I say
embedded, completely embeddedin the police department, they
attend roll calls, they go tocalls that don't even involve
mental health, and that's ourculture.
I'm definitely proud of thatand it's just something we do
really well there and it changedour culture and profession in
that city.
Steve Morreale (02:43):
So let's talk about that, but before we do,
tell us about your history inpolicing, what the hell drew you
here in the first?
Lester Baker (02:49):
place.
Well, it's funny.
I'm going to date myself here alittle bit and there might be
people on here that don't knowwhat I'm talking about.
But I had a dream like everyother little boy I wanted to
play in the NFL.
I quickly realized that was notgoing to happen.
I did well in high school, butI was no D1 athlete and there
was no NFL career.
My other passion was I wantedto be a motorcycle police
officer and I got that fromwatching many episodes.
(03:11):
Every night of chips, I had myfake helmet, two six shooters on
my hip and I rode my big wheelaround my neighborhood.
Steve Morreale (03:19):
That was my dream, Lester.
That's a picture, huh?
I'd like to see the video ofthat.
Lester Baker (03:25):
I do have some pictures of that.
I will share them with you,okay.
But yeah, I'm fortunate enoughto be living my dream.
So I lived that dream ofbecoming a motorcycle officer
and, to be honest with you, Inever saw myself as a police
chief.
I'm very fortunate that I wassurrounded by people that saw
stuff in me and that steered mein the right path to have me
pursue that.
Here I am today.
Steve Morreale (03:42):
So tell me how.
What was the genesis of yourentry into policing?
When was it?
Where was it?
Lester Baker (03:47):
So I actually got started and they still achieve
to this day.
Chief Jim Hicks of the NatickPolice Department actually
recruited me to be a cadet whenhe was a Lieutenant in the
Waltham Police Department.
Steve Morreale (03:58):
So I had no idea I'm from.
I didn't know that about you,so I'm a Waltham guy, guy.
Lester Baker (04:02):
Here's some backstory.
So I got offered a job as acadet in the city of Waltham but
at the same time I also gotoffered a patrol officer's job
in the town of Lexington.
So clearly I took the town ofLexington job and that's where I
started.
So those not familiar withLexington, that's just a very
small town, probably 15 minuteswest of Boston well, that's
where the famous battle ofLexington and Concord happened,
(04:24):
though.
It has a lot of history.
A lot of history there, PaulRevere, you know, before he made
it into Charlestown, that'swhere he came through.
So that's where I started mycareer.
Very small department.
I thanked them for theopportunity, but I did not see
myself growing in that agency.
I wanted something more and atthe time, in 2003, the city of
Framingham was accepting lateraltransfers, which you go back
and police and lateral transfersto a city was unheard of,
(04:45):
pretty much unheard of anywhere.
They were very rare and now youcould transfer anywhere you'd
like to.
Today I wanted to go to abigger city.
I wanted more opportunities andit clearly worked out very well
for me.
Steve Morreale (04:54):
So you're in Framingham, you're not,
unfortunately, when you go to anew place, it's like starting at
the bottom and you've got towork your way up right.
You don't have the seniority,even though you come in with
seniority, and I presume youstarted in patrol and did you
make the motorcycle.
Lester Baker (05:08):
Yes, yes, I actually made motorcycles when I
was in Lexington as well.
But when you transfer into anagency anyone in this profession
, no, it's just like becoming anew cop all over again.
I transferred with seven years.
You felt you had someexperience.
I grew up in the city, but noweveryone treats you like you
were a day one rookie.
So it's actually a little bittougher when you're transferring
.
I had to work myself up amongstthe ranks.
I was able to get ontomotorcycles when I was the, you
(05:30):
know, when I was in the patroldivision.
I also was a member of the SWATteam.
I was able to work streetcrimes.
I got the full gamut.
I shouldn't say I got the fullgamut, because something I
highly recommend to everyofficer, especially when you're,
when you consider yourself astreet cop get involved in the
admin side of your police agency, because the sexy part of it is
operations, the street butthere's a lot that goes on
(05:52):
behind the scenes on theadministrative side and at some
point, when you have that desireto become a boss, to become
whatever it is you want to be,there is an administrative
component and the work thatthose men and women do on the
administrative side a lot ofpeople take for granted until
you're held responsible for it.
So if I had to go back and dosomething different in those
days, I would have definitelygot myself more involved on the
(06:12):
administrative side.
Steve Morreale (06:13):
So you have been born and raised in Framingham,
for most of your career andobviously the department, well,
the city grew a little bit andso did the problems, and so as
you move up the ranks, you gofrom sergeant to lieutenant.
What was your next rank afterlieutenant, deputy chief?
Okay, so you were deputy chief.
So you're sitting around thetable because one of the things
(06:34):
I'd like to do and, by the way,we're talking to Lester Baker
and he's the chief police inFramingham, massachusetts, with
the police department One of thethings I like to explore is how
meetings are run.
Now, I know you experienced acouple of different chiefs.
In some cases they were morecontemporary chiefs than
old-time chiefs because, youknow, old-time chiefs were
different and they were sort oftop-down and autocratic in a lot
(06:55):
of ways and really weren'tlooking for your opinion or your
input.
But I think that's a mistakeand certainly in contemporary
policing, engaging others andempowering others is important.
How did you find your way tothe way that you chose to, or
choose to, lead?
Lester Baker (07:12):
now.
That's an absolute greatquestion and I've learned a lot
Best way I could describe it Ilearned a lot of what not to do
by watching others.
A lot of that is what youdescribed and I think in times
that was okay because that's theway, like you just said, where
I grew up, I grew up in thegeneration on this job where you
were told to do something andyou just simply went and did it.
You didn't ask why, you didn'task how come, you just simply
(07:32):
went and did it.
And that was one of the firstthings I struggled with, even at
the rank of sergeant, when youstarted getting the next
generation and they're simplythey weren't disrespecting you,
but that's just simply the waythey were brought up.
They would go do whatever youasked, but they wanted to know
why.
So in my first years as asergeant, lieutenant, I didn't
really give a damn about askingyou or responding to your why.
It took some maturity and sometime and some classes and just
(07:55):
speaking with other people thatno, nobody's trying to offend
you, Nobody's trying todisrespect you, but that's the
generation of police officersthat you have.
They'll go do what you want,but you're going to have to
explain why and that goes inyour meetings with your
supervisors I've seen bossesthat they simply control the
meeting.
They were going to give thingsout.
Here's the pecking order.
Here's the barking order.
Here's what I want.
Go do it Now.
Those meetings are run.
(08:16):
I truly try to run meetingswith a purpose.
There are way too many meetingsfor the sake of having meetings
.
So if your meeting doesn't havepurpose, it loses its
credibility.
So we try to stick to theagenda and get through it.
But you want to have peopleinvolved, because if people
don't feel involved and they'rejust doing whatever you want, I
want people to challenge me as achief.
I want my command staff toclose the door and challenge me.
(08:36):
If there's something that youfeel I'm doing wrong, tell me
I'm doing it wrong, but you damnwell better have a reason why
you're contradicting me.
Steve Morreale (08:43):
Yeah, you want to be able to justify it right,
justify your position right.
Lester Baker (08:46):
And be bold enough , and that's what will make all
of us better, because if I justsimply think I'm right all the
time and I'm surrounded bybobbleheads, that's you're
setting yourself for failure.
Steve Morreale (08:55):
That's the first time I've heard that Instead of
yes man, it's bobbleheads.
Lester Baker (09:00):
Yes, what I expect is my command staff, or even if
I invite a lieutenant to speakout with a problem with me, I'm
telling you to speak your mind.
But at the end of thatconversation, when the door
opens, I expect you to berespectful and you're not
carrying out the order or themission for me.
There's nothing more than Ican't stand, is they said the
chief said if you're a commander, whether you're a deputy chief,
(09:20):
captain, lieutenant, sergeant,it's not they, it's not them,
it's not the chief.
You're giving that order out.
It loses all credibility themoment you have your line
supervisors or your mid-levelmanagement basically saying
we're going to do this becausehe wants to.
Basically, you're saying youdon't agree with it, but hey, we
got to do this.
That's not going to beperceived well by the men and
women.
So that's why it's veryimportant to hey, let's air this
(09:42):
grievance out behind the closeddoors, but when this door opens
, we're united front.
Steve Morreale (09:46):
So it seems to me and I talk an awful lot, and
you know how much training I doabout setting expectations, not
once, but many times and itwould also seem to me that you
have maybe you have a newlieutenant coming in or a new
deputy chief that you'veappointed and you're setting the
table.
Here are my expectations,here's what my expectations of
your leadership to be.
Customize it for you, but Iwant you to be listening to your
(10:08):
people.
I'm assuming, I'm making a bigassumption and I want you to get
feedback from your people.
And I want you to start withwhy I'm not talking in tactical
situations Lester right whenwe're out there and we have to
hit a house or we're makingarrests or we're at an accident
scene.
I'm kind of barking out ordersbecause I've got experience and
this is why I want you to closethat street, do this, get that,
that kind of stuff and don'tquestion me there.
But it seems to me that you areallowing the people to ask
(10:34):
questions, to question you, topoint out unintended
consequences that I'm notthinking, to point out your
blind spots.
First of all, let me go back.
I said a lot there, but myquestion is and it sounds like
you said it that your leadershipstyle today has evolved and
changed with maturity and withexperience.
Is that a fair assessment?
Lester Baker (10:54):
That's absolutely correct.
I cannot sit here and say thatwas how I was day one, because I
bucked at that.
I had a hard time explainingmyself, especially to a brand
new kid on the job or somebodythat wasn't of a lower rank.
Here's a prime example Once ortwice a year I put out a letter
to the police departmentexplaining the things that I
have been doing or that I'mabout to do.
And I don't do that because Iconsider myself a soft person or
(11:16):
I'm looking for permission.
But I know that if I don't dothat letter and the rumors start
out about maybe a projectthat's happening, rumors will go
rampant.
People will put their own spinon it.
So usually if I simply put out aletter like we just rolled out
body cameras before we startedthe body worn camera program, we
let everybody know hey, this iswhat we're doing, this is why
we're doing it.
It could be simply as newequipment, new software, one of
(11:39):
the biggest things.
I let officers know that I feelwe are grossly understaffed, I
feel that you're overworked.
I am pushing the mayor, thecity council, to hire more
police officers.
So if I don't tell them thesethings and I feel that way, I
know they feel that way on thestreet and if they don't know
that I'm doing those things,they're probably thinking well,
he sits up there and he doesn'tcare that we go call to call
with no break.
He doesn't care that we needmore officers.
(12:00):
Officers, I'm letting them know.
I'm actually even showing themyou know the PowerPoints and my
presentations of what I'm tryingto push on their behalf.
That stuff goes a long way.
Steve Morreale (12:11):
It does, and I think that's part of explaining
why and I'm glad to hear thatbecause so many leaders they
make decisions or they thinkabout things that they might do,
that they're considering, andthey keep it to themselves.
It's almost like they're afraidto tell people what we're
trying to do.
We may not accomplish it, but Ithink it behooves them to tell
everybody this is what's goingon.
I'll give you an example Evenat the university, when we were
getting ready and I know youwent through it too with COVID
(12:31):
and rolling things out, that wasa daily change, if not an
hourly change.
And if you don't communicate itwith them on a regular basis,
look, we have to do masks.
There's mask mandate.
We're not going to take actionagainst it for criminal, because
it's not a criminal matter, butthis is what we need to do and
this is how we're thinking aboutit and we'll keep you apprised.
Is that important?
Because it seems to me, if themayor says something to you,
(12:52):
don't you want to know why?
Lester Baker (12:53):
Absolutely.
And you know, what's evenbigger is when I say something
in one of those reports and itdoesn't get done.
The next report I explain whyit did not get done.
Because if I put something outthere that, hey, I'm trying to
do this and then I don't do it,you're going to lose credibility
.
So maybe it was a funding issue, maybe it simply just didn't
work out, but I got to make sureI communicate that as well.
Steve Morreale (13:12):
Well, that's what we're talking about.
We're talking aboutcommunication and how important
that is both inside and outsidethe organization, and that it's
much better to come from you,not that you don't trust your
crew or command staff, but attimes it has to come from you
because it's then it's notmisunderstood.
Yeah, absolutely.
Lester Baker (13:27):
It's a little bit.
I'm even thinking about turningthese into videos to the men
and women, because I do it.
I don't know.
Steve Morreale (13:33):
Lester, I'm not sure that you've got a face for
video, but you could probably doan audio.
I'm kidding, I'm kidding.
Lester Baker (13:41):
So I think that's.
And, like I said, I cannot sithere and say that I've done this
my entire supervisor career.
But I do realize where ourprofession is going.
I do realize the way ourworkforce thinks the next
generation of office I can'tlive by.
Well, that's the way that wedid it.
I cannot stand going to mycommand staff when I say, hey,
we need to get something done,and they'll tell me well, that's
not the way we did it before wegot to start thinking outside
(14:03):
the box.
So don't ever come at me andsay we can't do this because
we've never done it.
That way.
Steve Morreale (14:07):
So I want to ask a question.
We're talking with Lester Baker, the chief of police in
Framingham, mass, and when wetalk about that, I've had the
opportunity to talk to so manychiefs and sometimes mentor some
chiefs.
And the big question I willalways ask do you want to
babysit the organization or youwant to move it forward?
And it seems to me that you aretrying to move it forward and
it's not easy because of reformand all of the changes that have
(14:30):
gone through.
And I know that you're veryactive in this reform now, given
your current position.
And I will add that you are nowone of the commissioners for
the Massachusetts Post, which isvery, very new, but you are one
of the representatives for thepolice side, and we'll talk
about that in a minute.
But let's just talk about statusquo versus moving the
department forward, gettinginput from others.
(14:50):
How is that body worn cam thingdoing?
What about the policy?
Can you live with the policy?
Are there things we have tochange?
When you set policy, are youone of those who says we
deliberated about the policy, wewrote the policy and the policy
is the policy or is it?
We need to know what's going onand how it impacts you, and
we'll revise it as necessary.
(15:11):
What's your take on?
Lester Baker (15:11):
that?
Absolutely the latter.
You cannot have a policy justfor the sake of having a policy.
If you're not willing to seethat something's not working,
have the ability to change it,then you're setting yourself up
for failure.
Prime example, like you said,is the body one camera policy.
We just rolled out our body onecamera policy last week.
First things I did is I attendedthat 10 year conversation with
Perth with body cameras so muchinsight to our policies.
(15:32):
Then I went out and gotpolicies from people basically
in this region that were juststarting up body cameras Because
, as we know, northeast bodycameras is a new thing in this
area.
They were not out for everyoneelse.
So first thing I did is wentand found policies and agencies
where they're doing this.
Well, my first question isn'twhat you're doing well, what did
you do wrong so we don't makethose mistakes?
And then you know you take apiece of everybody's policy and
(15:54):
you bring it back and you makeit better and you tailor it to
your community.
Now, like you said, one of thefirst things I did as well when
we did these policies is Ibrought in both unions.
If you want buy-in to policiesI'm a firm believer bring the
unions in.
Now we have an understanding.
At the end of the day, the chiefmight have to.
We might not be able to baitthis or have a democratic
conversation.
It might be you're going to dothis, but if you bring people to
(16:14):
the table and let everybody bepart of this, that it's going to
be involved with it I think youget a lot more done.
And I take this not only forpolicies, but even management
decisions.
If I can't be bold enough tosay that policy wow, we dropped
the ball on that, let's changethat.
Or hey, that decision I made,that personnel decision that I
made that didn't work out verywell, we might have to go in
another direction.
If I'm not willing to do that,then I'm definitely just
(16:35):
babysitting.
I don't care about change.
One of the things I said when Itook this position is my job is
to make this place better thanwhen I got it, and that is my
mission.
That I want to turn this placeover to the next man or woman in
better condition than when Igot it and hope they're taking
it even further.
Steve Morreale (16:48):
We're talking with Lester Baker, the chief of
police in Framingham, and you'relistening to the CopDoc podcast
, Lester.
In terms of new people comingto your organization, do you
talk with each one individually?
A new officer?
Yes, you do.
Tell me what happens, Tell mewhat those conversations are
like and then tell me about whathappens when you bring somebody
in who has recently promoted atSergeant, Lieutenant or
(17:10):
certainly Deputy Chief.
What are those conversationslike?
I'm sure they're different forevery level, but what's the
basis of them?
Lester Baker (17:16):
The first conversation that I have is with
the new officers.
I have a one-on-one with themright before they go to the
police academy.
I have a one-on-one with themafter the day we swear them in.
I invite each officer.
I also invite their familydirectly into my office.
I invite their family.
I basically tell their familyour expectations.
I tell their family what thisjob is going to do to their
loved one.
I let their family know thatthey can reach out to me anytime
(17:38):
.
I give that officer theopportunity.
So not only is the officergetting the expectations of the
Framingham Police Department inthis profession, their family is
as well.
I check in with themperiodically during their FTO
and their probation and if theydo make it through probation,
their one year mark, I call themin again and bring them in.
I don't want to say that finalconversation, but it's almost
like wrapping up those otherconversations basically to let
(18:00):
them know I want them to createtheir own path, don't have the
group thing warning them of allthe stresses of this job and
financial situations, and tomake sure they have a hobby.
Let them know where do theywant to be and if you want to be
somewhere, then work towardsthat Work period, don't get
jaded and basically stay intouch with them.
And as far as sergeants andlieutenants, kind of the same
thing, when they get promotedyou bring them in.
You want to make sure they'rehitting their expectations.
(18:21):
My agency is not big enoughwhere you don't have contact
with people so you are able tohave conversations.
But the same thing having theexpectations or setting the
expectations with the oncomingsupervisors and having those
conversations they're absolutelyhuge.
And one of the biggest thingsthat I got to work on is the
mentoring piece.
One of the biggest problems Ihad when I first got promoted is
I wanted people you want themto do what you want them to do,
(18:43):
but I also wanted to do thingsthe way that I do.
It Took me a few years torealize people have their own
ways of doing it and my waymight not be the best way.
One of the hardest things Istruggle with was just letting
people, you know, take care ofsomething and do something.
They might do it a totallydifferent way, but if they get
to the outcome that I'm lookingfor, what do I care?
The way you did it.
Steve Morreale (19:02):
I understand that that talks about developing
others and so your role, as yousee it, as a coach and you can
only coach so much when you'rein the chief's position because
they know how busy and how manydifferent issues you have to
deal with on a daily basis andeverything from budget to
personnel issues to complaintsand all of those kinds of things
, and I know you get to delegatea lot of those.
(19:23):
But how important is it for youto establish the role and
responsibility of a sergeant,lieutenant, deputy chief?
For sure, as a coach and amentor.
Lester Baker (19:33):
It's very important and it comes from all
levels.
Some of the best coaches andmentors in my life were simply
those.
They were like little leaguecoaches.
I think that is so huge,especially today, because we do
not have the best way I candescribe it is.
I feel like leaders in the pastjust presented themselves and
step forward.
You know who they were.
They made themselves known.
They almost told you they weregoing to be next.
You don't have that today.
(19:54):
So now and I actually was atthis at one point in my
management career I would say tomyself I have no one stepping
up to be leaders.
I have no one stepping up to beleaders.
It's just a differentgeneration.
You have to do a little bit ofdigging because it's the same
way.
The same way they don't dosomething to get to the same end
point that I would.
Not everybody is going to stepup and make themselves known or
be the loudest person in theroom to say I'm the leader, like
(20:16):
the way we grew up.
Now I have to do what wassomewhat done for me.
We got to make sure we'reputting people in opportunities
to bring out their leadershipskills and, if you see it, you
might have to go pull it out.
I think there is a very big job, even bigger than the deputy
chiefs, more so at the sergeantlevel.
Now I need you to identifythose leaders and bring them
forward so we can start puttingthem in situations that we are
(20:37):
sending them to schools.
You know, back in the day you'dhave 12 people beating down the
chief's door that want to go tothe NA or they want to go to
per or they want to go to this.
Now what you do is you see ayoung man or a young lady and
you say, hey, I think this mightbe a great opportunity for you,
I think you could benefit fromthis, I think this is something
you would enjoy, and they go.
Yeah, I was thinking about that.
We knock them on one sidebecause we say they want to know
(20:58):
why, but they're also not boldenough, like we were back in the
day, to say, hey, I deservethis.
I think I should be the nextperson going.
The mentor and the coaching iseven bigger today, I think, than
it was in years past, and it'sa huge part.
I credit numerous people in mylife, even outside of policing,
that kept me in my head on theright path.
Everything about where I grewup said I should be doing the
total opposite.
I path.
(21:19):
Everything about where I grewup said I should be doing the
total opposite.
I was surrounded by greatpeople on and off the job that
focused me to achieve goals thatthey saw in me.
Steve Morreale (21:29):
One of the things you just said that I want
to fill in.
You were saying when you bringsomebody in and you identify
them as maybe seeing somepotential value in going to a
course of some sort that focuseson leadership and development,
but I think the byproduct ofthat is I'm assuming you say
that is that it not only helpyou but it's going to help the
organization.
If you allow them, they'regoing to bring things back.
So, in one way, when you'resending people, let me ask you
(21:49):
this in terms of the trainingwhen you come back and this is a
pet peeve of mine and you knowthis has happened to you a
hundred times you go to atraining and you're a lieutenant
or deputy chief, we lose youfor a week, for 10 weeks, two
weeks, and you get back and sayhow was it?
It was great, great, get backto work, instead of asking what
did you learn and what can weuse?
How do you approach that?
Now I'm seeing you shake yourhead.
(22:10):
I have the benefit of watchingthe video.
Lester Baker (22:12):
Yes, I knew right where we were going with that.
And sometimes it's a failure bythe administration by not
taking those skills that youjust learned and then go share
them with other people.
And then there's times wherethe person just comes back they
took what they did.
It's for them.
Yes, when we send you out, it'sgot to be agency driven.
Yes, are there going to bethings that benefit you
personally?
Absolutely.
We as administrators got togive you now the opportunity
(22:35):
bring back what you shared.
And that goes back to thoseconversations our defensive
tactics guys they, they feltawkward about agencies doing
jujitsu now and other things.
And even our firearms unitsaying you know, we went out, we
did this and we feel like weshould go to this equipment and
I'm like, okay, if I can findthe funding for it or have the
funding.
I'm putting you in thesescenarios because that's what
(22:55):
you're to do.
You're supposed to bring thisstuff back.
Steve Morreale (22:56):
Tell me how we can be better.
Yeah, where are the gaps andhow can we fill those back with
what you learned?
Well, I think that's aboutknowledge management too.
That's exactly what we do, andyou know this happens.
I want to ask a question aboutthe way we promote and the game
that we play by waiting andwaiting and waiting and somebody
at the last minute drops out,says I'm retiring or I'm leaving
for another agency, and there'sthe vacuum.
(23:17):
And now you've got to wait fora little while to promote
somebody and in the meantime,either you're without someone or
you put somebody in acting, butthere's no necessary training
until much later after you startthe job.
I mean, in a perfect world,would you like to do something
different by prepping people forthe next step?
Lester Baker (23:34):
Perfect world.
I'd like to prep people beforethe next step, but you run into
the issue of who do you prep.
Steve Morreale (23:38):
That's on the list, yeah no, I know that you
can't show favorites, Iunderstand.
Lester Baker (23:42):
Are you going to prep your favorites?
Are you going to prep everybody?
That's on the list.
So that's where you run intothose situations.
It's absolutely would be muchbetter.
We used to not even have aprogram.
I remember making Sergeant.
It was literally here's yournew badge, here's your stripes
Tonight, go work the midnightshift.
Now we're actually doing somein-house training and here's a
prime example.
So we had a history of you justmade sergeant.
(24:03):
You went on the road Backbefore I became chief, probably
when I was a deputy chief, westarted saying you know, you're
going to actually ride alongwith a sergeant.
You're going to start, you'regoing to do some work with the
CO and see how bookings work andgo through a checklist of
things we want you to do.
That was you would have thoughtthat we stole somebody's dog.
How dare you.
You say I'm incompetent.
No, we're.
Basically, we want to set youup for success.
What we're saying is we don'twant you just to go out tonight
(24:26):
and boom, you're sergeant.
We think maybe you should sitdown, work with a sergeant for a
little bit, work with yourshift commander, set
expectations, give you sometools and then set you loose.
We've taken it further, thatnow we do see classes that are
available at the time, you domake your rank and try to send
you to those as well.
That's the history of policingright there, that when you
basically said we're going totry to do something, give you
some training, make this betterfor you, it was perceived as it
(24:49):
was a knock against that person,which it clearly is not.
Steve Morreale (24:51):
What are the issues that you're tackling at
the department that are beingthrown at you, mental health
being one of them, and I knowyou've addressed that Well.
Mental health being one of them, and I know you've addressed
that Well.
I want to talk about that.
You talked about co-responseand you know that I sometimes
scratch my head because I don'tthink the jail diversion program
title fully helps peopleunderstand what you're trying to
do.
Understand, instead of puttinga person in jail and putting
them to I mean, put them inhandcuffs and putting them in
(25:14):
jail.
We're giving you a diversionprogram, so I understand that.
But the co-response with aclinician is really important.
I know you've been doing it fora long time.
Lester Baker (25:21):
We partner with William and William James.
They are technically partneredwith William and James, so their
benefits do come through there,but we clearly both hire that
individual.
Their office is inside thepolice department.
Their office is actually rightoutside my office Technically,
on paper.
Are they with William JamesCollege?
Yes, but they are truly part ofthe city and if I was to ever
(25:41):
lose the grant funding throughthe Department of Mental Health,
or if William James stated theydidn't want to do this program,
I 100% beg, steal or borrow,would find the money and hire
them as city of Fremantleemployees.
That's how passionate I amabout this.
What's even better is the mostjunior patrol officer is just as
passionate about this as I am.
Let a clinician take a day off.
Steve Morreale (26:01):
Nobody will care that their sector buddy took
the night off, but when theyneed a clinician and there's not
one there- it's almost likethey feel exposed because they
have come to lean and rely onthem to step in some of those
situations.
I understand, and that's apretty good situation to be in
it was there 21 years ago.
Lester Baker (26:16):
I just wanted to say, when we were bucketing,
when we said we didn't need this, we know what we're doing and
now it's run full circle.
I actually hire clinicians onthe weekends from other agencies
to make sure I don't have avoid on the weekends.
Steve Morreale (26:27):
Wow, that's good , that's how much you use it for
sure.
So what are the issues of theday, the week, the month that
you are wrestling with?
The things that a policedepartment has become a social
service agency as much as it's alaw enforcement agency and
probably more of a socialservice agency than a law
enforcement agency, would yousay, because so little time is
spent arresting people.
It's dealing with all the otherthings.
(26:49):
Talk about that from yourperspective.
Lester Baker (26:51):
Here's a prime example I have two open murders
right now.
I have a large fentanyl problemand that's probably I don't
want to say the least of whatwe're doing.
But, like you said, on theday-to-day, the social service,
those are just nonstop.
That's where the officers gofrom call to call.
Where somebody wants us tosolve a problem, that's for code
enforcement.
Somebody wants us to solve aproblem, that's for the child
not going to school.
(27:11):
Can you do something about thetrash, the lighting?
Every other division within thecity that has an issue all turn
to the police department andwe've come to the point where we
know we're going to be turnedto because we're always there,
we're always willing to help,we're always open.
So we've actually embraced that.
But what has not happened withthat is the funding or the
personnel.
We constantly were asked to dothings outside of what would be
(27:34):
our jobs and we as not only theFramingham Police Department, I
think, as law enforcement hasdone everything.
We have taken on these rolesbecause we know people are going
to turn to us, but then youdon't give us the support, the
personnel, the training to dothese things, but we get them
done.
Basically, what I'm trying tosay is.
We're willing to do thesethings, but if you're going to
(27:55):
ask more of us, you need to giveme more bodies.
We need more money and we'llcontinue doing what we do.
We won't tell you that we can'tdo these things.
We'll work with you.
We'll get you to the places youmay be.
We might not have the solutionat the police department, but
we'll get you to the servicesthat you need Right.
Steve Morreale (28:07):
Yeah, what I wrote down is a couple of things
that come to mind as you'retalking and talking again to
Lester Baker he's the chief ofpolice in Framingham,
Massachusetts that relationshipsbecome important and
identifying.
But the real problem is thatsocial services is not properly
funded either, as you know, andif it was, then you'd have DYS
or DFS available to you on theweekends and after four o'clock
(28:27):
in the afternoon, and it's not.
And so where do people turn?
It's to the men and women inblue or green or brown or
whatever the color uniform is.
But I think, as a leader andyou're sitting around the table
because I want to ask you aboutyour meetings, but as you're
sitting around the table tryingto figure out what's the issue
of the day, what are theproblems that we have to meet,
what's the curveballs that havecome with us establishing
(28:49):
relationships with thoseorganizations and agencies,
Sunday morning we're able tocall Sally or Joe from DFS or
from DMR or DMH whatever thatmight be, or with inspection
services or DPW.
Tell me how important that isfor the department not to ignore
(29:10):
.
It's critical.
Lester Baker (29:11):
That's how important it is.
So what we did is we there's aprogram in Chelsea, chelsea,
massachusetts they refer to itas the HUB program, and we in
Framingham do several models offthat.
And what a HUB program is isyou take all your social
services, your school department, everybody comes into a room
for a meeting and when there isan issue, you point at that
social service or that, whoeverit may be.
(29:31):
And here's what we're doingwith this individual or this bit
or this address, andeverybody's working on the
solution.
As you know, usually if noone's communicating, you might
have three people working on aproblem and one's pushing and
one's pulling.
So these hub programs, you geteverybody in a room and you're
working on an issue and it'salmost like, hey, well, I can't
do this, well, I can do that,let me handle that portion.
(29:52):
Or you handle this portion.
It kind of puts people on aspot basically to say handle
your business.
It also gives you that face,that phone number, that name,
that when you do need somebody.
And it's an off hour.
We're not trying to figure out.
Well, who is it that we callfor department of mental health
for this issue?
Who is it that we call for thissocial service, for that issue.
No, you've built thoserelationships.
You know the saying that if I'mmeeting you for the first time
(30:13):
in the middle of a crisis, we'vealready failed and we have
several iterations of thingslike that, where some of them
break off in a smaller group.
But you definitely need thosemeetings and those groups to
come together because they alltie into it and most of what we
deal with in policing thereusually is some type of mental
health or some type of substanceabuse component of it.
So, having all those people inthe same room, the thing is
(30:35):
sometimes like I said,somebody's pushing and
somebody's pulling and somethingthat we had to work on very
strongly in those groups.
You go back to four years agowhen all the civil unrest in
George Floyd.
Nobody wanted to be in the roomwith the police officers.
They actually wanted the policeofficers not present.
That didn't last very longbecause, like I said, the police
officers were the only onesthat were there 24-7.
(30:55):
So then we slowly brought backinto the fold you can't ignore
us because we're not going away,right.
We definitely weren't going togo away, but it was just.
Steve Morreale (31:03):
So it sounds to me like the hub program is
intended to be solution oriented.
Bring a problem to the surfaceand come up with a plan.
Lester Baker (31:10):
Have all the stakeholders, as they say, at
one table and let's fix thisproblem together.
Steve Morreale (31:15):
All right.
So there's two things.
As we begin thinking aboutwinding down, give a few more
minutes.
I want to talk about meetingsand I want to talk about your
role with POST.
Take me into one of yourcommand staff meetings and think
back, lester, as you were firsta chief, and how you ran
meetings when you first got intothat position, and how you run
meetings a little differentlynow.
(31:35):
Tell me about that.
Lester Baker (31:36):
So when I first became chief the meeting, they
were just all over the place.
You know, you started tellingstories.
They went off, they were offthe agenda, the times got
fluctuated.
That still sometimes is anissue, just because things
happen, mm hmm.
But now it's got to be focused.
And actually it's funny thatyou mentioned this, because I'm
(31:59):
even taking it a step further.
I have three deputy chiefs whosit in my command staff.
I am now going to meet withthem one on one, only going to
be maybe 15, 30 minutes, becausethere's some things that we may
be able to clear up in muchsmaller means.
So when we do come together asa group, we're still even more.
Steve Morreale (32:14):
It's more bigger picture because you've dealt
with some of the individualissues still even more.
Lester Baker (32:17):
It's more bigger picture because you've dealt
with some of the individualissues Exactly.
So that was a lesson learnedthat we're bringing too much to
this one meeting when I couldprobably meet with you
individually.
We still need to keep thecommunication, so we're all on
the same page, but that was atweak that we made.
I wasn't the chief at the time,but I heard stories of a chief
of well before me that thebudget was his budget and that
was that.
I am firmly that if I do notshow up to work tomorrow, if I
(32:38):
hit the number or I fall, youknow if I'm not here tomorrow on
this earth.
I failed as a chief if thisplace doesn't skip a beat.
So I want my command staffinvolved with the budget.
They need to know about themajor crimes that are happening.
They need to know where all thekeys and combinations and
everything is Well, that's likeyour secretary.
Steve Morreale (32:58):
I say this all the time.
If your secretary goes down.
You can't function.
You don't even know how toorder paper and paper clips and
where the keys are kept right.
Lester Baker (33:07):
So that's my goal.
I want to make sure that, godforbid, I'm not here period, or
I can't be here for three months.
This place keeps going.
I owe it to everybody to makesure that happens.
So I think it's more so thethings I've heard.
I don't want to just live in asilo because I'm the chief and I
hold everything I need to shareso that we're all on the same
page and that somebody from mycommand staff can step in there.
(33:28):
They have the tools, they havethe knowledge and we just keep
things moving forward.
Steve Morreale (33:31):
I guess a big question too is, as you're
sitting in the meetings and youdo have an agenda, but the
agenda, that's tactical, that'syour operational stuff.
Got to do this, got a paradecoming, who's ready for that?
What's this?
Then you're asking about crime.
Where are we at with that crimeand solving?
Do we have anybody in mind?
But ultimately, at what pointin time do you begin the forward
thinking?
What do we have to do?
(33:52):
What's missing?
What's new?
What should we be trying orconsidering and getting feedback
from your crew?
Lester Baker (33:59):
That's bigger than a meeting.
That is all the time.
That's when I've hadconversations with some of my
admin lieutenants.
When I come to you and ask youfor something or say, hey, we
need to do this, don't tell methat, well, we've never done it
that way, we've done it this way.
Hey, chief, that soundsimpossible.
That's going to be hard, butlet me see how we can do it,
because leasing is not the same.
We have to constantly bethinking about how we can do
(34:21):
better, and that can't be safefor a staff meeting.
Yes, can we bring it forward ina staff meeting?
Absolutely, but every day wehave to be forward thinking and
thinking about, before somethinggets dumped on our lap, how can
we make this better.
So I actually, in that letterthat I talked about earlier,
that I put out, I kind of usethat open door theory of if you
have something that you thinkcould make this place better for
everybody and I prefaceeverybody bring it forward.
(34:44):
We don't have to wait for aletter, we don't have to wait
for a meeting.
I want to encourage that ifthere's something out there
that's technology, operationally, whatever, if it's something
that's going to benefit the city, this agency, agency and all
our men and women.
Let's take a look at it.
Steve Morreale (34:57):
Do you think again in your evolution as a
leader that you take the time tolead through questions, by
posing questions, to makingpeople think about something and
ponder something the who, what,where, when, why and how
approach to leading?
Lester Baker (35:11):
Do you do that?
I did not do that in thebeginning.
I have learned to do that, andhere's a prime example.
For anyone that's been in thisprofession They'll understand
what I'm saying.
I have people that come into myoffice and they tell me how
much somebody sucks, and theytell me how bad they're doing
and what they're not doing.
And then my next questionsimply is well, what did you do
about this and what are youdoing to correct this?
What have you done to changethis?
(35:31):
What have you done to betterthat person?
And usually that is met withzero response.
Steve Morreale (35:36):
At first.
Until you keep doing it, I'msure Right, right, yeah, right.
Lester Baker (35:40):
Absolutely.
So yes, that is definitelysomething I would like to get
better at, because it's easy tosay that you want people to go
out and make decisions and dothis and do that.
Sometimes you got to feed thatmachine.
Steve Morreale (35:50):
Well, that's an interesting perspective, because
one of the things I think whenyou begin to ask questions
whether it's a sergeant askingan officer I think we make a
mistake by answering thequestions Sarge, this is what
happened, what should I do?
And then you boomerang it backto them and say, well, what were
your options?
What did you do?
What could you do better?
That begins to develop judgmentin people when we boomerang it
back at them and ask them well,how would you handle it?
(36:12):
How would you solve it?
I can solve.
Here's the way I feel and,having been a boss for a long
time, I can answer yourquestions.
I guess that's what I get paidto do.
But if I do that, why do I needyou?
Lester Baker (36:23):
If I'm answering your questions, I mean, tell me
how you react to that that's sowell said and that's definitely
something that I knowprofessionally that I need to
work on, because my firstthought is exactly what you said
.
You give me the scenario and,especially if I have very
confident and have the insightto it, my first response is to
answer it and basically say,well, why didn't you do that,
where I should be taking exactlywhat you said?
Well, what were your options?
(36:43):
Why did you do what you did?
I'm a firm believer now, theagency that I grew up in there
was a joke that we had to makephone calls to make decisions.
You basically had to call.
Well, now they text you.
Steve Morreale (36:53):
Now they text.
Lester Baker (36:56):
I pride myself with giving my commanders, shift
commanders, unit commanders,decision-making abilities, and I
truly do.
It's funny to me when sometimesI just simply ask, why did you
do what you did?
They become offensive to that.
I'm not saying you can't makethat decision, but you will be
able to articulate why you did.
Steve Morreale (37:18):
I'm giving you that authority, but you better
be able to articulate why youdid what you did.
Yeah, I like that.
I like the idea of developingbench depth and I think that's
what you were talking about whenyou were talking about sharing
the budget and not holdingeverything to yourself and
explaining your decisions,sometimes explaining why.
You know you talk to the mayor.
They said you can't do it thisway.
We may have to do it that way.
Let's do it a little bit at atime, incremental change, and
see what happens.
(37:38):
But you have taken on a new rolethat is more statewide and I do
not want to cause any stir withyou because of your position as
a post commissioner, but I'msure you're sitting around a
table now representing thepolice and I know that the
police and other police chiefs,your colleagues, are leaning on
you to represent.
You walked into this.
You replaced Mike Wynn, is thatcorrect?
(38:02):
That is correct, right, andI've talked to Mike Wynn about
this.
How have you adapted?
How have you become the voiceand, in some way, the conscience
of policing in Massachusetts sothat when they're making
decisions, that they're donewith an informed agenda rather
than the way they used to dothings, I think, without input?
Lester Baker (38:17):
Yeah, First off, it's an honor to basically I
received the support from themass chiefs, the mass major city
chiefs, to step into this role,with their blessing, but
obviously it was ultimately thegovernor's decision to appoint
me and I was appointed by thegovernor to sit on the post
commission.
I am a post commissioner, so Iam involved in votes of
discipline, votes on policy, butI also do represent and have a
(38:38):
voice for those chief agenciesand it's truly something that's
needed.
And I'll go back to what wejust talked about.
When the Post Commission wasformed.
It was formed and legislationwas made, and the number one
thing that they said is we'renot going to involve the police.
Steve Morreale (38:52):
Here we are.
Imagine that thinking.
I mean, how bizarre thatthinker is.
Lester Baker (39:19):
That's like we're going to have the medical kick
and scream about it and keepwhining about it, or are you
going to help, be part of thesolution, and I'm very fortunate
that my peers have put theirfaith in me to be that voice.
That's part of my role is, andthis is something that I always
put out there.
In 2013, the mass chiefs ofpolice said to the Commonwealth
we should have a post commission.
It did not go over and you fastforward to the events of the
(39:39):
civil unrest.
Steve Morreale (39:40):
And it was almost Michael Brown right.
Lester Baker (39:42):
Everybody acted like the chiefs didn't want that
.
Well, the chiefs wanted thatwell before this happened.
We're not opposed to it.
But, like you said, would youmake medical decisions without
medical experts?
Steve Morreale (39:52):
Yeah, or would you deal with aeronautics
without a pilot being on theboard?
Lester Baker (39:58):
I mean, it makes no sense, right?
So with the day-to-day thingsgoing on, it's just going
forward.
Now we have a voice, so maybethings that I think were rushed
will also go back to what yousaid.
You know what's great, drMorreale.
Everything that you said in theconversation we had earlier
applies to everything.
Now there are some things inpost that we feel were rushed,
that we're not saying that wedon't want.
We just simply feel we might beable to do it better.
(40:20):
Is somebody going to be boldenough, like I said myself, I'm
bold enough to say you know what, men and women, I made a
mistake on that policy.
I think we need to change it.
Is somebody going to be boldenough to say, hey, this has
been five years, that's notworking.
We're not saying we're going toget rid of it, but what we are
saying is that maybe we could dothis better or maybe we can
tweak that.
I hope that.
I'm hoping that the goal is notto just have this to say we
(40:41):
have it.
I hope the goal is to do thisand make sure that it's the best
post commission around thecountry.
Steve Morreale (40:46):
Yeah, I mean when you look at posts, and
certainly California is quitethe model, I mean they've been
around for a long, long, long,long time.
It's a huge organization andmass is trying to do it their
own way.
That's okay.
In my mind it's an evolutionand intended to be for the
ultimately, for the betterment.
I mean there's a couple ofthings that rolled out, as you
know that you were, you werepart of from the chief side,
when they ever asked you tosubmit all of the disciplinary
(41:08):
records and those were madepublic without being vetted.
Oh my God, was that a cluster,as you well know and I'm sure.
Lester Baker (41:15):
Again, lesson learned would you say that will
never happen again?
I presume I hope that wouldnever happen again, Exactly so
it's like anything else and I'mnot sitting here to bash POSHA.
I think we have a very greatworking relationship with the
chiefs in the POSHA commission.
I want to see it get evenbetter and grow from there.
So I think there's this bigmisconception that the police
don't want this and they don'twant to be involved, and that
(41:37):
couldn't be anything furtherfrom the truth.
We say a thousand times nobodyhates bad cops more than good
cops.
Steve Morreale (41:42):
Yeah, so we're talking to Lester Baker as we
wind down.
I want to ask this questionwhen you look, we live in our
little cocoon, we're atFramingham.
You show up at the station,you're in your office, you're
taking care of business inFramingham and that's your main
function.
But when you go to a PERF orwhen you go to IACP or when you
get involved in POST, how doesthat help you basically open
(42:03):
your eyes and take the blindersoff, to look at the big world
and bring some of that to thelocal organization?
It is absolutely huge.
Lester Baker (42:11):
I'll go back to my immature days as a patrol
officer when you saw the chiefsgoing off to these conferences
and everybody has something tosay.
Right, yes, are you going on atrip?
Are you going out of state?
Yes, you are, but you arebringing back so much knowledge
that might not have been in yourregion.
You meet somebody at an eventand you speak to them and you've
now come back with somethingthat they've done so well and
now you're going to institute itin your agency.
(42:32):
These connections, thisoutreach it's unbelievable.
Like I said, I went to a.
There was a perf round table.
It was simply for one day andit's been published.
It was a 10 year.
Look back on body cameras.
Yes, I learned so much fromthat.
I was in there from talking topeople that have been doing this
forever, learning about theirmistakes, their successes.
You can't put a price on this.
(42:52):
It only drives the professionforward.
Where you go wrong is, like yousaid, not only are they in a
silo in their office, they thinktheir community is a silo.
Communities don't look the samethat they did 20 years ago.
So if you're not willing to getoutside your silo and see that
the world's changing that, thisprofession's changing that,
technology's changing that.
Everything we do is evolvingand it's not even evolving like
(43:14):
it used to.
Policing would change fiveyears, 10 years, would you agree
?
Policing is changing, sometimesmonthly, very true.
So if you're not willing to getinto that and make sure that
you're ahead of the curve,you're going to fall behind and
it's going to be very hard tocatch up.
Steve Morreale (43:27):
You know, I just talked about this in a class a
few minutes ago and that is tounderstand.
I mean, I went to ACP.
I didn't even see you.
It was so many people there Ididn't even get to see you.
It was in Boston.
But there was so much stuffthat I learned.
And being on the education andtraining committee is helpful,
because trying to say what arewe doing to create better
leaders in policing and who'sdoing what and how can we share
that Really neat stuff.
(43:47):
But you may have drones, butthis idea of drones as first
responders is an amazing,amazing idea.
Technology can basically, fromyour CAD system, can, raise
something from a roof and bringa drone there and bring that
video feed.
I'm sure that's in the future,but it's expensive.
But again, you don't haveenough people.
That's another eye in the sky,right?
Lester Baker (44:06):
Not a helicopter.
I actually have three dronesand at first I was probably just
like the naysayers.
I said all these guys want atoy.
Steve Morreale (44:12):
Yeah, they do, they do.
They're just gamers, right.
Lester Baker (44:16):
Well, that toy has found missing persons.
That toy has been used by thecities to find out why there was
a dam that was backing up orsomething to do with some water
issue.
They used the police to findout what the problem was.
We partnered with the firedepartment.
We put the drone up over astructure and they can
immediately find out where thehotspot is.
Steve Morreale (44:34):
Because there's a flare will do it.
Lester Baker (44:36):
Yes, right, so now .
So now, well, this toy reallyis a great tool.
Yeah, one of the things that Itook away from the icp is I'm
now looking at doing a live timewatch center my goal is real
time, real time, real time crimecenter yeah, so now you can
call 9-1-1 and the ai is goingto put what's being said on the
officer's screen in the cruiser.
(44:56):
Yeah, if you can geteverybody's ring camera well,
not everybody, because noteveryone's going to be willing
to give them to you- but,everybody that's willing to give
you their ring camera, theirbusiness camera, bank cameras,
school cameras, traffic cameras.
If a 911 call comes in fromMaine and South, everybody
that's registered to that camerais now going to, before the
dispatcher even puts the callout.
The officers are going to seewhat's happening.
(45:17):
They're going to see what'sbeing said.
It's going to happen in livetime.
If you ever meet me in 1996, wewere going to do that I would
say you were crazy.
You watched the Jetsons.
Steve Morreale (45:26):
Isn't that true, I know?
Lester Baker (45:28):
And if I'm not now willing to think about that
today and make sure I do thatbefore I retire, I'm setting
this agency up for failure,because it is my job to make
sure we're on the path for thattechnology, even though it will
come.
It might not get here fullyuntil after I'm gone, but I need
to set us up for success.
Steve Morreale (45:44):
I know that's great, and again we're talking
to Lester Baker, the chief inFramingham.
As you have grown up in theindustry of policing and it has
changed dramatically since thetime you and I pushed a patrol
car Do you see hope?
Do you see value in policing inthe community?
Do you tell new people thatwhile there's noise out there
(46:05):
you have to rise above the fray?
Talk about that.
What do you believe policingwill?
Lester Baker (46:10):
become.
So this is a great question andI'm going to get rather
personal with it, so forgive me.
During the unrest of GeorgeFloyd, I hung my head, I dropped
my shoulders and I walkedaround like the world was ending
.
Now, yes, was that horribletime?
It absolutely was, and I fellright into the same mentality
that everyone else was fallingin.
I questioned what we do, Iquestioned me even being here,
(46:32):
and I call myself.
I think it was very cowardly howI carried myself during certain
phases of that time, and thatwill never, ever, ever, happen
again.
Of course you need us.
Of course the police are needed.
The police are one of thebiggest things in our
communities.
And was that a horrible time?
Absolutely, but I should havekept my chin up, my chest out,
my shoulders back and made surethat I was leading my men have
(46:53):
to rise above it.
So, basically, what I'm sayingis that women in that fashion.
Bad things are going to happen,but you we're always going to
be here.
We'll always be here for thosethat need us, and we got to make
sure that's the way we carry it, whether it's good times or bad
times, and one of the worstthings you could ever let your
men and women see, is thatyou're down in the dumps about
this profession.
Yes, sometimes things get toughand it's time to toughen up and
(47:13):
rise above it, and I'll makesure that I never, ever, make
that mistake again.
Steve Morreale (47:18):
Thank you s o much for taking the time and for
sitting in your car whileyou've got a meeting that you
are supposed to be attending.
I appreciate that, Lester.
Lester Baker (47:25):
Great, I could actually do this all day.
This is like therapy.
Steve Morreale (47:29):
No, I appreciate that very, very much.
So that's another episode ofthe CopDoc podcast in the books.
We've been talking with LesterBaker from Framingham,
massachusetts.
I appreciate that.
I want to tell you that thepodcast continues to grow.
We're now being heard in 85countries and I just got word
that 3,000 cities in thosecountries are listening.
So if you have any ideas aboutwho I should talk to, I'm always
(47:50):
looking for thought leaders,innovative police chiefs and
other police personnel to talkto.
Thanks very much.
Have a good day, stay safe.
Intro/Outro (48:02):
Thanks for listening to The CopDoc Podcast
with Dr Steve Morreale.
Steve is a retired lawenforcement practitioner and
manager, turned academic andscholar from Worcester State
University.
Please tune into The CopDocPodcast for regular episodes of
interviews with thought leadersin policing.
Welcome to The CopDoc Podcast.
This podcast explores policeleadership issues and innovative
ideas.
The CopDoc shares thoughts andideas as he talks with leaders
in policing communities,academia and other government
agencies.
And now please join Dr SteveMorreale and industry thought
(00:25):
leaders as they share theirinsights and experience on the
CopDoc podcast.
Steve Morreale (00:50):
Hey everybody, steve Morreale coming to you
from South Carolina today andwe're starting another episode
of the Cop Talk podcast, andtoday we get to talk to a
colleague of mine fromFramingham Mass Police
Department, the Chief of Police,Llester Baker, and he is
attending a meeting and so he'stalking to me in a car.
But whatever it takes Lesterright, so good morning.
Lester Baker (01:05):
Good morning, Dr Morreale.
How are you?
And first I would like toapologize because the private
room that I was going to havefor this meeting wasn't very
private a lot of noise.
Steve Morreale (01:12):
So one thing in policing we learn is that we
have to adapt right and overcome, and that's what we're doing
here, as I said.
So we've been the chief ofpolice of a former town of
Framingham, now the city ofFramingham, and what I'd like to
do is to explain to theaudience.
First, I'll talk about whereFramingham is.
Framingham is about what, wouldyou say, 25 minutes from Boston
(01:34):
.
Lester Baker (01:35):
Yes, 25 minutes west of Boston West of Boston
and it's a good-sized city.
Steve Morreale (01:39):
So let's talk about the agency and your city
first, Lester.
Lester Baker (01:42):
Absolutely so.
Yeah, framingham is a city, aswe said, west of Boston 75,000
population documented.
We have a very largeundocumented population.
We have one of the largestBrazilian populations, probably
in the US, right there inFramingham.
We were a town, came a city in2018.
(02:02):
Police department is 136 sworn.
I've been the chief now forfour years.
Our city we have a very seriousdrug issue, drug problem there
fentanyl.
If you think of the hub ofdrugs that come into the
Commonwealth of Mass, you thinkof the pipeline from New York to
Springfield, to Worcester, toFramingham, to Boston and
running north and south.
So we do have our fair share.
One of the best things I taughtabout my agency is our
geo-diversion program and thatafforded me the opportunity to
travel with you to Ireland.
For over 20 years, theFrickmanham Police Department
(02:24):
has been engaged in co-responseand if you're not familiar with
co-response, co-response ispartnering with a clinician,
basically embedded into thepolice department and when I say
embedded, completely embeddedin the police department, they
attend roll calls, they go tocalls that don't even involve
mental health, and that's ourculture.
I'm definitely proud of thatand it's just something we do
really well there and it changedour culture and profession in
that city.
Steve Morreale (02:43):
So let's talk about that, but before we do,
tell us about your history inpolicing, what the hell drew you
here in the first?
Lester Baker (02:49):
place.
Well, it's funny.
I'm going to date myself here alittle bit and there might be
people on here that don't knowwhat I'm talking about.
But I had a dream like everyother little boy I wanted to
play in the NFL.
I quickly realized that was notgoing to happen.
I did well in high school, butI was no D1 athlete and there
was no NFL career.
My other passion was I wantedto be a motorcycle police
officer and I got that fromwatching many episodes.
(03:11):
Every night of chips, I had myfake helmet, two six shooters on
my hip and I rode my big wheelaround my neighborhood.
Steve Morreale (03:19):
That was my dream, Lester.
That's a picture, huh?
I'd like to see the video ofthat.
Lester Baker (03:25):
I do have some pictures of that.
I will share them with you,okay.
But yeah, I'm fortunate enoughto be living my dream.
So I lived that dream ofbecoming a motorcycle officer
and, to be honest with you, Inever saw myself as a police
chief.
I'm very fortunate that I wassurrounded by people that saw
stuff in me and that steered mein the right path to have me
pursue that.
Here I am today.
Steve Morreale (03:42):
So tell me how.
What was the genesis of yourentry into policing?
When was it?
Where was it?
Lester Baker (03:47):
So I actually got started and they still achieve
to this day.
Chief Jim Hicks of the NatickPolice Department actually
recruited me to be a cadet whenhe was a Lieutenant in the
Waltham Police Department.
Steve Morreale (03:58):
So I had no idea I'm from.
I didn't know that about you,so I'm a Waltham guy, guy.
Lester Baker (04:02):
Here's some backstory.
So I got offered a job as acadet in the city of Waltham but
at the same time I also gotoffered a patrol officer's job
in the town of Lexington.
So clearly I took the town ofLexington job and that's where I
started.
So those not familiar withLexington, that's just a very
small town, probably 15 minuteswest of Boston well, that's
where the famous battle ofLexington and Concord happened,
(04:24):
though.
It has a lot of history.
A lot of history there, PaulRevere, you know, before he made
it into Charlestown, that'swhere he came through.
So that's where I started mycareer.
Very small department.
I thanked them for theopportunity, but I did not see
myself growing in that agency.
I wanted something more and atthe time, in 2003, the city of
Framingham was accepting lateraltransfers, which you go back
and police and lateral transfersto a city was unheard of,
(04:45):
pretty much unheard of anywhere.
They were very rare and now youcould transfer anywhere you'd
like to.
Today I wanted to go to abigger city.
I wanted more opportunities andit clearly worked out very well
for me.
Steve Morreale (04:54):
So you're in Framingham, you're not,
unfortunately, when you go to anew place, it's like starting at
the bottom and you've got towork your way up right.
You don't have the seniority,even though you come in with
seniority, and I presume youstarted in patrol and did you
make the motorcycle.
Lester Baker (05:08):
Yes, yes, I actually made motorcycles when I
was in Lexington as well.
But when you transfer into anagency anyone in this profession
, no, it's just like becoming anew cop all over again.
I transferred with seven years.
You felt you had someexperience.
I grew up in the city, but noweveryone treats you like you
were a day one rookie.
So it's actually a little bittougher when you're transferring
.
I had to work myself up amongstthe ranks.
I was able to get ontomotorcycles when I was the, you
(05:30):
know, when I was in the patroldivision.
I also was a member of the SWATteam.
I was able to work streetcrimes.
I got the full gamut.
I shouldn't say I got the fullgamut, because something I
highly recommend to everyofficer, especially when you're,
when you consider yourself astreet cop get involved in the
admin side of your police agency, because the sexy part of it is
operations, the street butthere's a lot that goes on
(05:52):
behind the scenes on theadministrative side and at some
point, when you have that desireto become a boss, to become
whatever it is you want to be,there is an administrative
component and the work thatthose men and women do on the
administrative side a lot ofpeople take for granted until
you're held responsible for it.
So if I had to go back and dosomething different in those
days, I would have definitelygot myself more involved on the
(06:12):
administrative side.
Steve Morreale (06:13):
So you have been born and raised in Framingham,
for most of your career andobviously the department, well,
the city grew a little bit andso did the problems, and so as
you move up the ranks, you gofrom sergeant to lieutenant.
What was your next rank afterlieutenant, deputy chief?
Okay, so you were deputy chief.
So you're sitting around thetable because one of the things
(06:34):
I'd like to do and, by the way,we're talking to Lester Baker
and he's the chief police inFramingham, massachusetts, with
the police department One of thethings I like to explore is how
meetings are run.
Now, I know you experienced acouple of different chiefs.
In some cases they were morecontemporary chiefs than
old-time chiefs because, youknow, old-time chiefs were
different and they were sort oftop-down and autocratic in a lot
(06:55):
of ways and really weren'tlooking for your opinion or your
input.
But I think that's a mistakeand certainly in contemporary
policing, engaging others andempowering others is important.
How did you find your way tothe way that you chose to, or
choose to, lead?
Lester Baker (07:12):
now.
That's an absolute greatquestion and I've learned a lot
Best way I could describe it Ilearned a lot of what not to do
by watching others.
A lot of that is what youdescribed and I think in times
that was okay because that's theway, like you just said, where
I grew up, I grew up in thegeneration on this job where you
were told to do something andyou just simply went and did it.
You didn't ask why, you didn'task how come, you just simply
(07:32):
went and did it.
And that was one of the firstthings I struggled with, even at
the rank of sergeant, when youstarted getting the next
generation and they're simplythey weren't disrespecting you,
but that's just simply the waythey were brought up.
They would go do whatever youasked, but they wanted to know
why.
So in my first years as asergeant, lieutenant, I didn't
really give a damn about askingyou or responding to your why.
It took some maturity and sometime and some classes and just
(07:55):
speaking with other people thatno, nobody's trying to offend
you, Nobody's trying todisrespect you, but that's the
generation of police officersthat you have.
They'll go do what you want,but you're going to have to
explain why and that goes inyour meetings with your
supervisors I've seen bossesthat they simply control the
meeting.
They were going to give thingsout.
Here's the pecking order.
Here's the barking order.
Here's what I want.
Go do it Now.
Those meetings are run.
(08:16):
I truly try to run meetingswith a purpose.
There are way too many meetingsfor the sake of having meetings
.
So if your meeting doesn't havepurpose, it loses its
credibility.
So we try to stick to theagenda and get through it.
But you want to have peopleinvolved, because if people
don't feel involved and they'rejust doing whatever you want, I
want people to challenge me as achief.
I want my command staff toclose the door and challenge me.
(08:36):
If there's something that youfeel I'm doing wrong, tell me
I'm doing it wrong, but you damnwell better have a reason why
you're contradicting me.
Steve Morreale (08:43):
Yeah, you want to be able to justify it right,
justify your position right.
Lester Baker (08:46):
And be bold enough , and that's what will make all
of us better, because if I justsimply think I'm right all the
time and I'm surrounded bybobbleheads, that's you're
setting yourself for failure.
Steve Morreale (08:55):
That's the first time I've heard that Instead of
yes man, it's bobbleheads.
Lester Baker (09:00):
Yes, what I expect is my command staff, or even if
I invite a lieutenant to speakout with a problem with me, I'm
telling you to speak your mind.
But at the end of thatconversation, when the door
opens, I expect you to berespectful and you're not
carrying out the order or themission for me.
There's nothing more than Ican't stand, is they said the
chief said if you're a commander, whether you're a deputy chief,
(09:20):
captain, lieutenant, sergeant,it's not they, it's not them,
it's not the chief.
You're giving that order out.
It loses all credibility themoment you have your line
supervisors or your mid-levelmanagement basically saying
we're going to do this becausehe wants to.
Basically, you're saying youdon't agree with it, but hey, we
got to do this.
That's not going to beperceived well by the men and
women.
So that's why it's veryimportant to hey, let's air this
(09:42):
grievance out behind the closeddoors, but when this door opens
, we're united front.
Steve Morreale (09:46):
So it seems to me and I talk an awful lot, and
you know how much training I doabout setting expectations, not
once, but many times and itwould also seem to me that you
have maybe you have a newlieutenant coming in or a new
deputy chief that you'veappointed and you're setting the
table.
Here are my expectations,here's what my expectations of
your leadership to be.
Customize it for you, but Iwant you to be listening to your
(10:08):
people.
I'm assuming, I'm making a bigassumption and I want you to get
feedback from your people.
And I want you to start withwhy I'm not talking in tactical
situations Lester right whenwe're out there and we have to
hit a house or we're makingarrests or we're at an accident
scene.
I'm kind of barking out ordersbecause I've got experience and
this is why I want you to closethat street, do this, get that,
that kind of stuff and don'tquestion me there.
But it seems to me that you areallowing the people to ask
(10:34):
questions, to question you, topoint out unintended
consequences that I'm notthinking, to point out your
blind spots.
First of all, let me go back.
I said a lot there, but myquestion is and it sounds like
you said it that your leadershipstyle today has evolved and
changed with maturity and withexperience.
Is that a fair assessment?
Lester Baker (10:54):
That's absolutely correct.
I cannot sit here and say thatwas how I was day one, because I
bucked at that.
I had a hard time explainingmyself, especially to a brand
new kid on the job or somebodythat wasn't of a lower rank.
Here's a prime example Once ortwice a year I put out a letter
to the police departmentexplaining the things that I
have been doing or that I'mabout to do.
And I don't do that because Iconsider myself a soft person or
(11:16):
I'm looking for permission.
But I know that if I don't dothat letter and the rumors start
out about maybe a projectthat's happening, rumors will go
rampant.
People will put their own spinon it.
So usually if I simply put out aletter like we just rolled out
body cameras before we startedthe body worn camera program, we
let everybody know hey, this iswhat we're doing, this is why
we're doing it.
It could be simply as newequipment, new software, one of
(11:39):
the biggest things.
I let officers know that I feelwe are grossly understaffed, I
feel that you're overworked.
I am pushing the mayor, thecity council, to hire more
police officers.
So if I don't tell them thesethings and I feel that way, I
know they feel that way on thestreet and if they don't know
that I'm doing those things,they're probably thinking well,
he sits up there and he doesn'tcare that we go call to call
with no break.
He doesn't care that we needmore officers.
(12:00):
Officers, I'm letting them know.
I'm actually even showing themyou know the PowerPoints and my
presentations of what I'm tryingto push on their behalf.
That stuff goes a long way.
Steve Morreale (12:11):
It does, and I think that's part of explaining
why and I'm glad to hear thatbecause so many leaders they
make decisions or they thinkabout things that they might do,
that they're considering, andthey keep it to themselves.
It's almost like they're afraidto tell people what we're
trying to do.
We may not accomplish it, but Ithink it behooves them to tell
everybody this is what's goingon.
I'll give you an example Evenat the university, when we were
getting ready and I know youwent through it too with COVID
(12:31):
and rolling things out, that wasa daily change, if not an
hourly change.
And if you don't communicate itwith them on a regular basis,
look, we have to do masks.
There's mask mandate.
We're not going to take actionagainst it for criminal, because
it's not a criminal matter, butthis is what we need to do and
this is how we're thinking aboutit and we'll keep you apprised.
Is that important?
Because it seems to me, if themayor says something to you,
(12:52):
don't you want to know why?
Lester Baker (12:53):
Absolutely.
And you know, what's evenbigger is when I say something
in one of those reports and itdoesn't get done.
The next report I explain whyit did not get done.
Because if I put something outthere that, hey, I'm trying to
do this and then I don't do it,you're going to lose credibility
.
So maybe it was a funding issue, maybe it simply just didn't
work out, but I got to make sureI communicate that as well.
Steve Morreale (13:12):
Well, that's what we're talking about.
We're talking aboutcommunication and how important
that is both inside and outsidethe organization, and that it's
much better to come from you,not that you don't trust your
crew or command staff, but attimes it has to come from you
because it's then it's notmisunderstood.
Yeah, absolutely.
Lester Baker (13:27):
It's a little bit.
I'm even thinking about turningthese into videos to the men
and women, because I do it.
I don't know.
Steve Morreale (13:33):
Lester, I'm not sure that you've got a face for
video, but you could probably doan audio.
I'm kidding, I'm kidding.
Lester Baker (13:41):
So I think that's.
And, like I said, I cannot sithere and say that I've done this
my entire supervisor career.
But I do realize where ourprofession is going.
I do realize the way ourworkforce thinks the next
generation of office I can'tlive by.
Well, that's the way that wedid it.
I cannot stand going to mycommand staff when I say, hey,
we need to get something done,and they'll tell me well, that's
not the way we did it before wegot to start thinking outside
(14:03):
the box.
So don't ever come at me andsay we can't do this because
we've never done it.
That way.
Steve Morreale (14:07):
So I want to ask a question.
We're talking with Lester Baker, the chief of police in
Framingham, mass, and when wetalk about that, I've had the
opportunity to talk to so manychiefs and sometimes mentor some
chiefs.
And the big question I willalways ask do you want to
babysit the organization or youwant to move it forward?
And it seems to me that you aretrying to move it forward and
it's not easy because of reformand all of the changes that have
(14:30):
gone through.
And I know that you're veryactive in this reform now, given
your current position.
And I will add that you are nowone of the commissioners for
the Massachusetts Post, which isvery, very new, but you are one
of the representatives for thepolice side, and we'll talk
about that in a minute.
But let's just talk about statusquo versus moving the
department forward, gettinginput from others.
(14:50):
How is that body worn cam thingdoing?
What about the policy?
Can you live with the policy?
Are there things we have tochange?
When you set policy, are youone of those who says we
deliberated about the policy, wewrote the policy and the policy
is the policy or is it?
We need to know what's going onand how it impacts you, and
we'll revise it as necessary.
(15:11):
What's your take on?
Lester Baker (15:11):
that?
Absolutely the latter.
You cannot have a policy justfor the sake of having a policy.
If you're not willing to seethat something's not working,
have the ability to change it,then you're setting yourself up
for failure.
Prime example, like you said,is the body one camera policy.
We just rolled out our body onecamera policy last week.
First things I did is I attendedthat 10 year conversation with
Perth with body cameras so muchinsight to our policies.
(15:32):
Then I went out and gotpolicies from people basically
in this region that were juststarting up body cameras Because
, as we know, northeast bodycameras is a new thing in this
area.
They were not out for everyoneelse.
So first thing I did is wentand found policies and agencies
where they're doing this.
Well, my first question isn'twhat you're doing well, what did
you do wrong so we don't makethose mistakes?
And then you know you take apiece of everybody's policy and
(15:54):
you bring it back and you makeit better and you tailor it to
your community.
Now, like you said, one of thefirst things I did as well when
we did these policies is Ibrought in both unions.
If you want buy-in to policiesI'm a firm believer bring the
unions in.
Now we have an understanding.
At the end of the day, the chiefmight have to.
We might not be able to baitthis or have a democratic
conversation.
It might be you're going to dothis, but if you bring people to
(16:14):
the table and let everybody bepart of this, that it's going to
be involved with it I think youget a lot more done.
And I take this not only forpolicies, but even management
decisions.
If I can't be bold enough tosay that policy wow, we dropped
the ball on that, let's changethat.
Or hey, that decision I made,that personnel decision that I
made that didn't work out verywell, we might have to go in
another direction.
If I'm not willing to do that,then I'm definitely just
(16:35):
babysitting.
I don't care about change.
One of the things I said when Itook this position is my job is
to make this place better thanwhen I got it, and that is my
mission.
That I want to turn this placeover to the next man or woman in
better condition than when Igot it and hope they're taking
it even further.
Steve Morreale (16:48):
We're talking with Lester Baker, the chief of
police in Framingham, and you'relistening to the CopDoc podcast
, Lester.
In terms of new people comingto your organization, do you
talk with each one individually?
A new officer?
Yes, you do.
Tell me what happens, Tell mewhat those conversations are
like and then tell me about whathappens when you bring somebody
in who has recently promoted atSergeant, Lieutenant or
(17:10):
certainly Deputy Chief.
What are those conversationslike?
I'm sure they're different forevery level, but what's the
basis of them?
Lester Baker (17:16):
The first conversation that I have is with
the new officers.
I have a one-on-one with themright before they go to the
police academy.
I have a one-on-one with themafter the day we swear them in.
I invite each officer.
I also invite their familydirectly into my office.
I invite their family.
I basically tell their familyour expectations.
I tell their family what thisjob is going to do to their
loved one.
I let their family know thatthey can reach out to me anytime
(17:38):
.
I give that officer theopportunity.
So not only is the officergetting the expectations of the
Framingham Police Department inthis profession, their family is
as well.
I check in with themperiodically during their FTO
and their probation and if theydo make it through probation,
their one year mark, I call themin again and bring them in.
I don't want to say that finalconversation, but it's almost
like wrapping up those otherconversations basically to let
(18:00):
them know I want them to createtheir own path, don't have the
group thing warning them of allthe stresses of this job and
financial situations, and tomake sure they have a hobby.
Let them know where do theywant to be and if you want to be
somewhere, then work towardsthat Work period, don't get
jaded and basically stay intouch with them.
And as far as sergeants andlieutenants, kind of the same
thing, when they get promotedyou bring them in.
You want to make sure they'rehitting their expectations.
(18:21):
My agency is not big enoughwhere you don't have contact
with people so you are able tohave conversations.
But the same thing having theexpectations or setting the
expectations with the oncomingsupervisors and having those
conversations they're absolutelyhuge.
And one of the biggest thingsthat I got to work on is the
mentoring piece.
One of the biggest problems Ihad when I first got promoted is
I wanted people you want themto do what you want them to do,
(18:43):
but I also wanted to do thingsthe way that I do.
It Took me a few years torealize people have their own
ways of doing it and my waymight not be the best way.
One of the hardest things Istruggle with was just letting
people, you know, take care ofsomething and do something.
They might do it a totallydifferent way, but if they get
to the outcome that I'm lookingfor, what do I care?
The way you did it.
Steve Morreale (19:02):
I understand that that talks about developing
others and so your role, as yousee it, as a coach and you can
only coach so much when you'rein the chief's position because
they know how busy and how manydifferent issues you have to
deal with on a daily basis andeverything from budget to
personnel issues to complaintsand all of those kinds of things
, and I know you get to delegatea lot of those.
(19:23):
But how important is it for youto establish the role and
responsibility of a sergeant,lieutenant, deputy chief?
For sure, as a coach and amentor.
Lester Baker (19:33):
It's very important and it comes from all
levels.
Some of the best coaches andmentors in my life were simply
those.
They were like little leaguecoaches.
I think that is so huge,especially today, because we do
not have the best way I candescribe it is.
I feel like leaders in the pastjust presented themselves and
step forward.
You know who they were.
They made themselves known.
They almost told you they weregoing to be next.
You don't have that today.
(19:54):
So now and I actually was atthis at one point in my
management career I would say tomyself I have no one stepping
up to be leaders.
I have no one stepping up to beleaders.
It's just a differentgeneration.
You have to do a little bit ofdigging because it's the same
way.
The same way they don't dosomething to get to the same end
point that I would.
Not everybody is going to stepup and make themselves known or
be the loudest person in theroom to say I'm the leader, like
(20:16):
the way we grew up.
Now I have to do what wassomewhat done for me.
We got to make sure we'reputting people in opportunities
to bring out their leadershipskills and, if you see it, you
might have to go pull it out.
I think there is a very big job, even bigger than the deputy
chiefs, more so at the sergeantlevel.
Now I need you to identifythose leaders and bring them
forward so we can start puttingthem in situations that we are
(20:37):
sending them to schools.
You know, back in the day you'dhave 12 people beating down the
chief's door that want to go tothe NA or they want to go to
per or they want to go to this.
Now what you do is you see ayoung man or a young lady and
you say, hey, I think this mightbe a great opportunity for you,
I think you could benefit fromthis, I think this is something
you would enjoy, and they go.
Yeah, I was thinking about that.
We knock them on one sidebecause we say they want to know
(20:58):
why, but they're also not boldenough, like we were back in the
day, to say, hey, I deservethis.
I think I should be the nextperson going.
The mentor and the coaching iseven bigger today, I think, than
it was in years past, and it'sa huge part.
I credit numerous people in mylife, even outside of policing,
that kept me in my head on theright path.
Everything about where I grewup said I should be doing the
total opposite.
I path.
(21:19):
Everything about where I grewup said I should be doing the
total opposite.
I was surrounded by greatpeople on and off the job that
focused me to achieve goals thatthey saw in me.
Steve Morreale (21:29):
One of the things you just said that I want
to fill in.
You were saying when you bringsomebody in and you identify
them as maybe seeing somepotential value in going to a
course of some sort that focuseson leadership and development,
but I think the byproduct ofthat is I'm assuming you say
that is that it not only helpyou but it's going to help the
organization.
If you allow them, they'regoing to bring things back.
So, in one way, when you'resending people, let me ask you
(21:49):
this in terms of the trainingwhen you come back and this is a
pet peeve of mine and you knowthis has happened to you a
hundred times you go to atraining and you're a lieutenant
or deputy chief, we lose youfor a week, for 10 weeks, two
weeks, and you get back and sayhow was it?
It was great, great, get backto work, instead of asking what
did you learn and what can weuse?
How do you approach that?
Now I'm seeing you shake yourhead.
(22:10):
I have the benefit of watchingthe video.
Lester Baker (22:12):
Yes, I knew right where we were going with that.
And sometimes it's a failure bythe administration by not
taking those skills that youjust learned and then go share
them with other people.
And then there's times wherethe person just comes back they
took what they did.
It's for them.
Yes, when we send you out, it'sgot to be agency driven.
Yes, are there going to bethings that benefit you
personally?
Absolutely.
We as administrators got togive you now the opportunity
(22:35):
bring back what you shared.
And that goes back to thoseconversations our defensive
tactics guys they, they feltawkward about agencies doing
jujitsu now and other things.
And even our firearms unitsaying you know, we went out, we
did this and we feel like weshould go to this equipment and
I'm like, okay, if I can findthe funding for it or have the
funding.
I'm putting you in thesescenarios because that's what
(22:55):
you're to do.
You're supposed to bring thisstuff back.
Steve Morreale (22:56):
Tell me how we can be better.
Yeah, where are the gaps andhow can we fill those back with
what you learned?
Well, I think that's aboutknowledge management too.
That's exactly what we do, andyou know this happens.
I want to ask a question aboutthe way we promote and the game
that we play by waiting andwaiting and waiting and somebody
at the last minute drops out,says I'm retiring or I'm leaving
for another agency, and there'sthe vacuum.
(23:17):
And now you've got to wait fora little while to promote
somebody and in the meantime,either you're without someone or
you put somebody in acting, butthere's no necessary training
until much later after you startthe job.
I mean, in a perfect world,would you like to do something
different by prepping people forthe next step?
Lester Baker (23:34):
Perfect world.
I'd like to prep people beforethe next step, but you run into
the issue of who do you prep.
Steve Morreale (23:38):
That's on the list, yeah no, I know that you
can't show favorites, Iunderstand.
Lester Baker (23:42):
Are you going to prep your favorites?
Are you going to prep everybody?
That's on the list.
So that's where you run intothose situations.
It's absolutely would be muchbetter.
We used to not even have aprogram.
I remember making Sergeant.
It was literally here's yournew badge, here's your stripes
Tonight, go work the midnightshift.
Now we're actually doing somein-house training and here's a
prime example.
So we had a history of you justmade sergeant.
(24:03):
You went on the road Backbefore I became chief, probably
when I was a deputy chief, westarted saying you know, you're
going to actually ride alongwith a sergeant.
You're going to start, you'regoing to do some work with the
CO and see how bookings work andgo through a checklist of
things we want you to do.
That was you would have thoughtthat we stole somebody's dog.
How dare you.
You say I'm incompetent.
No, we're.
Basically, we want to set youup for success.
What we're saying is we don'twant you just to go out tonight
(24:26):
and boom, you're sergeant.
We think maybe you should sitdown, work with a sergeant for a
little bit, work with yourshift commander, set
expectations, give you sometools and then set you loose.
We've taken it further, thatnow we do see classes that are
available at the time, you domake your rank and try to send
you to those as well.
That's the history of policingright there, that when you
basically said we're going totry to do something, give you
some training, make this betterfor you, it was perceived as it
(24:49):
was a knock against that person,which it clearly is not.
Steve Morreale (24:51):
What are the issues that you're tackling at
the department that are beingthrown at you, mental health
being one of them, and I knowyou've addressed that Well.
Mental health being one of them, and I know you've addressed
that Well.
I want to talk about that.
You talked about co-responseand you know that I sometimes
scratch my head because I don'tthink the jail diversion program
title fully helps peopleunderstand what you're trying to
do.
Understand, instead of puttinga person in jail and putting
them to I mean, put them inhandcuffs and putting them in
(25:14):
jail.
We're giving you a diversionprogram, so I understand that.
But the co-response with aclinician is really important.
I know you've been doing it fora long time.
Lester Baker (25:21):
We partner with William and William James.
They are technically partneredwith William and James, so their
benefits do come through there,but we clearly both hire that
individual.
Their office is inside thepolice department.
Their office is actually rightoutside my office Technically,
on paper.
Are they with William JamesCollege?
Yes, but they are truly part ofthe city and if I was to ever
(25:41):
lose the grant funding throughthe Department of Mental Health,
or if William James stated theydidn't want to do this program,
I 100% beg, steal or borrow,would find the money and hire
them as city of Fremantleemployees.
That's how passionate I amabout this.
What's even better is the mostjunior patrol officer is just as
passionate about this as I am.
Let a clinician take a day off.
Steve Morreale (26:01):
Nobody will care that their sector buddy took
the night off, but when theyneed a clinician and there's not
one there- it's almost likethey feel exposed because they
have come to lean and rely onthem to step in some of those
situations.
I understand, and that's apretty good situation to be in
it was there 21 years ago.
Lester Baker (26:16):
I just wanted to say, when we were bucketing,
when we said we didn't need this, we know what we're doing and
now it's run full circle.
I actually hire clinicians onthe weekends from other agencies
to make sure I don't have avoid on the weekends.
Steve Morreale (26:27):
Wow, that's good , that's how much you use it for
sure.
So what are the issues of theday, the week, the month that
you are wrestling with?
The things that a policedepartment has become a social
service agency as much as it's alaw enforcement agency and
probably more of a socialservice agency than a law
enforcement agency, would yousay, because so little time is
spent arresting people.
It's dealing with all the otherthings.
(26:49):
Talk about that from yourperspective.
Lester Baker (26:51):
Here's a prime example I have two open murders
right now.
I have a large fentanyl problemand that's probably I don't
want to say the least of whatwe're doing.
But, like you said, on theday-to-day, the social service,
those are just nonstop.
That's where the officers gofrom call to call.
Where somebody wants us tosolve a problem, that's for code
enforcement.
Somebody wants us to solve aproblem, that's for the child
not going to school.
(27:11):
Can you do something about thetrash, the lighting?
Every other division within thecity that has an issue all turn
to the police department andwe've come to the point where we
know we're going to be turnedto because we're always there,
we're always willing to help,we're always open.
So we've actually embraced that.
But what has not happened withthat is the funding or the
personnel.
We constantly were asked to dothings outside of what would be
(27:34):
our jobs and we as not only theFramingham Police Department, I
think, as law enforcement hasdone everything.
We have taken on these rolesbecause we know people are going
to turn to us, but then youdon't give us the support, the
personnel, the training to dothese things, but we get them
done.
Basically, what I'm trying tosay is.
We're willing to do thesethings, but if you're going to
(27:55):
ask more of us, you need to giveme more bodies.
We need more money and we'llcontinue doing what we do.
We won't tell you that we can'tdo these things.
We'll work with you.
We'll get you to the places youmay be.
We might not have the solutionat the police department, but
we'll get you to the servicesthat you need Right.
Steve Morreale (28:07):
Yeah, what I wrote down is a couple of things
that come to mind as you'retalking and talking again to
Lester Baker he's the chief ofpolice in Framingham,
Massachusetts that relationshipsbecome important and
identifying.
But the real problem is thatsocial services is not properly
funded either, as you know, andif it was, then you'd have DYS
or DFS available to you on theweekends and after four o'clock
(28:27):
in the afternoon, and it's not.
And so where do people turn?
It's to the men and women inblue or green or brown or
whatever the color uniform is.
But I think, as a leader andyou're sitting around the table
because I want to ask you aboutyour meetings, but as you're
sitting around the table tryingto figure out what's the issue
of the day, what are theproblems that we have to meet,
what's the curveballs that havecome with us establishing
(28:49):
relationships with thoseorganizations and agencies,
Sunday morning we're able tocall Sally or Joe from DFS or
from DMR or DMH whatever thatmight be, or with inspection
services or DPW.
Tell me how important that isfor the department not to ignore
(29:10):
.
It's critical.
Lester Baker (29:11):
That's how important it is.
So what we did is we there's aprogram in Chelsea, chelsea,
massachusetts they refer to itas the HUB program, and we in
Framingham do several models offthat.
And what a HUB program is isyou take all your social
services, your school department, everybody comes into a room
for a meeting and when there isan issue, you point at that
social service or that, whoeverit may be.
(29:31):
And here's what we're doingwith this individual or this bit
or this address, andeverybody's working on the
solution.
As you know, usually if noone's communicating, you might
have three people working on aproblem and one's pushing and
one's pulling.
So these hub programs, you geteverybody in a room and you're
working on an issue and it'salmost like, hey, well, I can't
do this, well, I can do that,let me handle that portion.
(29:52):
Or you handle this portion.
It kind of puts people on aspot basically to say handle
your business.
It also gives you that face,that phone number, that name,
that when you do need somebody.
And it's an off hour.
We're not trying to figure out.
Well, who is it that we callfor department of mental health
for this issue?
Who is it that we call for thissocial service, for that issue.
No, you've built thoserelationships.
You know the saying that if I'mmeeting you for the first time
(30:13):
in the middle of a crisis, we'vealready failed and we have
several iterations of thingslike that, where some of them
break off in a smaller group.
But you definitely need thosemeetings and those groups to
come together because they alltie into it and most of what we
deal with in policing thereusually is some type of mental
health or some type of substanceabuse component of it.
So, having all those people inthe same room, the thing is
(30:35):
sometimes like I said,somebody's pushing and
somebody's pulling and somethingthat we had to work on very
strongly in those groups.
You go back to four years agowhen all the civil unrest in
George Floyd.
Nobody wanted to be in the roomwith the police officers.
They actually wanted the policeofficers not present.
That didn't last very longbecause, like I said, the police
officers were the only onesthat were there 24-7.
(30:55):
So then we slowly brought backinto the fold you can't ignore
us because we're not going away,right.
We definitely weren't going togo away, but it was just.
Steve Morreale (31:03):
So it sounds to me like the hub program is
intended to be solution oriented.
Bring a problem to the surfaceand come up with a plan.
Lester Baker (31:10):
Have all the stakeholders, as they say, at
one table and let's fix thisproblem together.
Steve Morreale (31:15):
All right.
So there's two things.
As we begin thinking aboutwinding down, give a few more
minutes.
I want to talk about meetingsand I want to talk about your
role with POST.
Take me into one of yourcommand staff meetings and think
back, lester, as you were firsta chief, and how you ran
meetings when you first got intothat position, and how you run
meetings a little differentlynow.
(31:35):
Tell me about that.
Lester Baker (31:36):
So when I first became chief the meeting, they
were just all over the place.
You know, you started tellingstories.
They went off, they were offthe agenda, the times got
fluctuated.
That still sometimes is anissue, just because things
happen, mm hmm.
But now it's got to be focused.
And actually it's funny thatyou mentioned this, because I'm
(31:59):
even taking it a step further.
I have three deputy chiefs whosit in my command staff.
I am now going to meet withthem one on one, only going to
be maybe 15, 30 minutes, becausethere's some things that we may
be able to clear up in muchsmaller means.
So when we do come together asa group, we're still even more.
Steve Morreale (32:14):
It's more bigger picture because you've dealt
with some of the individualissues still even more.
Lester Baker (32:17):
It's more bigger picture because you've dealt
with some of the individualissues Exactly.
So that was a lesson learnedthat we're bringing too much to
this one meeting when I couldprobably meet with you
individually.
We still need to keep thecommunication, so we're all on
the same page, but that was atweak that we made.
I wasn't the chief at the time,but I heard stories of a chief
of well before me that thebudget was his budget and that
was that.
I am firmly that if I do notshow up to work tomorrow, if I
(32:38):
hit the number or I fall, youknow if I'm not here tomorrow on
this earth.
I failed as a chief if thisplace doesn't skip a beat.
So I want my command staffinvolved with the budget.
They need to know about themajor crimes that are happening.
They need to know where all thekeys and combinations and
everything is Well, that's likeyour secretary.
Steve Morreale (32:58):
I say this all the time.
If your secretary goes down.
You can't function.
You don't even know how toorder paper and paper clips and
where the keys are kept right.
Lester Baker (33:07):
So that's my goal.
I want to make sure that, godforbid, I'm not here period, or
I can't be here for three months.
This place keeps going.
I owe it to everybody to makesure that happens.
So I think it's more so thethings I've heard.
I don't want to just live in asilo because I'm the chief and I
hold everything I need to shareso that we're all on the same
page and that somebody from mycommand staff can step in there.
(33:28):
They have the tools, they havethe knowledge and we just keep
things moving forward.
Steve Morreale (33:31):
I guess a big question too is, as you're
sitting in the meetings and youdo have an agenda, but the
agenda, that's tactical, that'syour operational stuff.
Got to do this, got a paradecoming, who's ready for that?
What's this?
Then you're asking about crime.
Where are we at with that crimeand solving?
Do we have anybody in mind?
But ultimately, at what pointin time do you begin the forward
thinking?
What do we have to do?
(33:52):
What's missing?
What's new?
What should we be trying orconsidering and getting feedback
from your crew?
Lester Baker (33:59):
That's bigger than a meeting.
That is all the time.
That's when I've hadconversations with some of my
admin lieutenants.
When I come to you and ask youfor something or say, hey, we
need to do this, don't tell methat, well, we've never done it
that way, we've done it this way.
Hey, chief, that soundsimpossible.
That's going to be hard, butlet me see how we can do it,
because leasing is not the same.
We have to constantly bethinking about how we can do
(34:21):
better, and that can't be safefor a staff meeting.
Yes, can we bring it forward ina staff meeting?
Absolutely, but every day wehave to be forward thinking and
thinking about, before somethinggets dumped on our lap, how can
we make this better.
So I actually, in that letterthat I talked about earlier,
that I put out, I kind of usethat open door theory of if you
have something that you thinkcould make this place better for
everybody and I prefaceeverybody bring it forward.
(34:44):
We don't have to wait for aletter, we don't have to wait
for a meeting.
I want to encourage that ifthere's something out there
that's technology, operationally, whatever, if it's something
that's going to benefit the city, this agency, agency and all
our men and women.
Let's take a look at it.
Steve Morreale (34:57):
Do you think again in your evolution as a
leader that you take the time tolead through questions, by
posing questions, to makingpeople think about something and
ponder something the who, what,where, when, why and how
approach to leading?
Lester Baker (35:11):
Do you do that?
I did not do that in thebeginning.
I have learned to do that, andhere's a prime example.
For anyone that's been in thisprofession They'll understand
what I'm saying.
I have people that come into myoffice and they tell me how
much somebody sucks, and theytell me how bad they're doing
and what they're not doing.
And then my next questionsimply is well, what did you do
about this and what are youdoing to correct this?
What have you done to changethis?
(35:31):
What have you done to betterthat person?
And usually that is met withzero response.
Steve Morreale (35:36):
At first.
Until you keep doing it, I'msure Right, right, yeah, right.
Lester Baker (35:40):
Absolutely.
So yes, that is definitelysomething I would like to get
better at, because it's easy tosay that you want people to go
out and make decisions and dothis and do that.
Sometimes you got to feed thatmachine.
Steve Morreale (35:50):
Well, that's an interesting perspective, because
one of the things I think whenyou begin to ask questions
whether it's a sergeant askingan officer I think we make a
mistake by answering thequestions Sarge, this is what
happened, what should I do?
And then you boomerang it backto them and say, well, what were
your options?
What did you do?
What could you do better?
That begins to develop judgmentin people when we boomerang it
back at them and ask them well,how would you handle it?
(36:12):
How would you solve it?
I can solve.
Here's the way I feel and,having been a boss for a long
time, I can answer yourquestions.
I guess that's what I get paidto do.
But if I do that, why do I needyou?
Lester Baker (36:23):
If I'm answering your questions, I mean, tell me
how you react to that that's sowell said and that's definitely
something that I knowprofessionally that I need to
work on, because my firstthought is exactly what you said
.
You give me the scenario and,especially if I have very
confident and have the insightto it, my first response is to
answer it and basically say,well, why didn't you do that,
where I should be taking exactlywhat you said?
Well, what were your options?
(36:43):
Why did you do what you did?
I'm a firm believer now, theagency that I grew up in there
was a joke that we had to makephone calls to make decisions.
You basically had to call.
Well, now they text you.
Steve Morreale (36:53):
Now they text.
Lester Baker (36:56):
I pride myself with giving my commanders, shift
commanders, unit commanders,decision-making abilities, and I
truly do.
It's funny to me when sometimesI just simply ask, why did you
do what you did?
They become offensive to that.
I'm not saying you can't makethat decision, but you will be
able to articulate why you did.
Steve Morreale (37:18):
I'm giving you that authority, but you better
be able to articulate why youdid what you did.
Yeah, I like that.
I like the idea of developingbench depth and I think that's
what you were talking about whenyou were talking about sharing
the budget and not holdingeverything to yourself and
explaining your decisions,sometimes explaining why.
You know you talk to the mayor.
They said you can't do it thisway.
We may have to do it that way.
Let's do it a little bit at atime, incremental change, and
see what happens.
(37:38):
But you have taken on a new rolethat is more statewide and I do
not want to cause any stir withyou because of your position as
a post commissioner, but I'msure you're sitting around a
table now representing thepolice and I know that the
police and other police chiefs,your colleagues, are leaning on
you to represent.
You walked into this.
You replaced Mike Wynn, is thatcorrect?
(38:02):
That is correct, right, andI've talked to Mike Wynn about
this.
How have you adapted?
How have you become the voiceand, in some way, the conscience
of policing in Massachusetts sothat when they're making
decisions, that they're donewith an informed agenda rather
than the way they used to dothings, I think, without input?
Lester Baker (38:17):
Yeah, First off, it's an honor to basically I
received the support from themass chiefs, the mass major city
chiefs, to step into this role,with their blessing, but
obviously it was ultimately thegovernor's decision to appoint
me and I was appointed by thegovernor to sit on the post
commission.
I am a post commissioner, so Iam involved in votes of
discipline, votes on policy, butI also do represent and have a
(38:38):
voice for those chief agenciesand it's truly something that's
needed.
And I'll go back to what wejust talked about.
When the Post Commission wasformed.
It was formed and legislationwas made, and the number one
thing that they said is we'renot going to involve the police.
Steve Morreale (38:52):
Here we are.
Imagine that thinking.
I mean, how bizarre thatthinker is.
Lester Baker (39:19):
That's like we're going to have the medical kick
and scream about it and keepwhining about it, or are you
going to help, be part of thesolution, and I'm very fortunate
that my peers have put theirfaith in me to be that voice.
That's part of my role is, andthis is something that I always
put out there.
In 2013, the mass chiefs ofpolice said to the Commonwealth
we should have a post commission.
It did not go over and you fastforward to the events of the
(39:39):
civil unrest.
Steve Morreale (39:40):
And it was almost Michael Brown right.
Lester Baker (39:42):
Everybody acted like the chiefs didn't want that
.
Well, the chiefs wanted thatwell before this happened.
We're not opposed to it.
But, like you said, would youmake medical decisions without
medical experts?
Steve Morreale (39:52):
Yeah, or would you deal with aeronautics
without a pilot being on theboard?
Lester Baker (39:58):
I mean, it makes no sense, right?
So with the day-to-day thingsgoing on, it's just going
forward.
Now we have a voice, so maybethings that I think were rushed
will also go back to what yousaid.
You know what's great, drMorreale.
Everything that you said in theconversation we had earlier
applies to everything.
Now there are some things inpost that we feel were rushed,
that we're not saying that wedon't want.
We just simply feel we might beable to do it better.
(40:20):
Is somebody going to be boldenough, like I said myself, I'm
bold enough to say you know what, men and women, I made a
mistake on that policy.
I think we need to change it.
Is somebody going to be boldenough to say, hey, this has
been five years, that's notworking.
We're not saying we're going toget rid of it, but what we are
saying is that maybe we could dothis better or maybe we can
tweak that.
I hope that.
I'm hoping that the goal is notto just have this to say we
(40:41):
have it.
I hope the goal is to do thisand make sure that it's the best
post commission around thecountry.
Steve Morreale (40:46):
Yeah, I mean when you look at posts, and
certainly California is quitethe model, I mean they've been
around for a long, long, long,long time.
It's a huge organization andmass is trying to do it their
own way.
That's okay.
In my mind it's an evolutionand intended to be for the
ultimately, for the betterment.
I mean there's a couple ofthings that rolled out, as you
know that you were, you werepart of from the chief side,
when they ever asked you tosubmit all of the disciplinary
(41:08):
records and those were madepublic without being vetted.
Oh my God, was that a cluster,as you well know and I'm sure.
Lester Baker (41:15):
Again, lesson learned would you say that will
never happen again?
I presume I hope that wouldnever happen again, Exactly so
it's like anything else and I'mnot sitting here to bash POSHA.
I think we have a very greatworking relationship with the
chiefs in the POSHA commission.
I want to see it get evenbetter and grow from there.
So I think there's this bigmisconception that the police
don't want this and they don'twant to be involved, and that
(41:37):
couldn't be anything furtherfrom the truth.
We say a thousand times nobodyhates bad cops more than good
cops.
Steve Morreale (41:42):
Yeah, so we're talking to Lester Baker as we
wind down.
I want to ask this questionwhen you look, we live in our
little cocoon, we're atFramingham.
You show up at the station,you're in your office, you're
taking care of business inFramingham and that's your main
function.
But when you go to a PERF orwhen you go to IACP or when you
get involved in POST, how doesthat help you basically open
(42:03):
your eyes and take the blindersoff, to look at the big world
and bring some of that to thelocal organization?
It is absolutely huge.
Lester Baker (42:11):
I'll go back to my immature days as a patrol
officer when you saw the chiefsgoing off to these conferences
and everybody has something tosay.
Right, yes, are you going on atrip?
Are you going out of state?
Yes, you are, but you arebringing back so much knowledge
that might not have been in yourregion.
You meet somebody at an eventand you speak to them and you've
now come back with somethingthat they've done so well and
now you're going to institute itin your agency.
(42:32):
These connections, thisoutreach it's unbelievable.
Like I said, I went to a.
There was a perf round table.
It was simply for one day andit's been published.
It was a 10 year.
Look back on body cameras.
Yes, I learned so much fromthat.
I was in there from talking topeople that have been doing this
forever, learning about theirmistakes, their successes.
You can't put a price on this.
(42:52):
It only drives the professionforward.
Where you go wrong is, like yousaid, not only are they in a
silo in their office, they thinktheir community is a silo.
Communities don't look the samethat they did 20 years ago.
So if you're not willing to getoutside your silo and see that
the world's changing that, thisprofession's changing that,
technology's changing that.
Everything we do is evolvingand it's not even evolving like
(43:14):
it used to.
Policing would change fiveyears, 10 years, would you agree
?
Policing is changing, sometimesmonthly, very true.
So if you're not willing to getinto that and make sure that
you're ahead of the curve,you're going to fall behind and
it's going to be very hard tocatch up.
Steve Morreale (43:27):
You know, I just talked about this in a class a
few minutes ago and that is tounderstand.
I mean, I went to ACP.
I didn't even see you.
It was so many people there Ididn't even get to see you.
It was in Boston.
But there was so much stuffthat I learned.
And being on the education andtraining committee is helpful,
because trying to say what arewe doing to create better
leaders in policing and who'sdoing what and how can we share
that Really neat stuff.
(43:47):
But you may have drones, butthis idea of drones as first
responders is an amazing,amazing idea.
Technology can basically, fromyour CAD system, can, raise
something from a roof and bringa drone there and bring that
video feed.
I'm sure that's in the future,but it's expensive.
But again, you don't haveenough people.
That's another eye in the sky,right?
Lester Baker (44:06):
Not a helicopter.
I actually have three dronesand at first I was probably just
like the naysayers.
I said all these guys want atoy.
Steve Morreale (44:12):
Yeah, they do, they do.
They're just gamers, right.
Lester Baker (44:16):
Well, that toy has found missing persons.
That toy has been used by thecities to find out why there was
a dam that was backing up orsomething to do with some water
issue.
They used the police to findout what the problem was.
We partnered with the firedepartment.
We put the drone up over astructure and they can
immediately find out where thehotspot is.
Steve Morreale (44:34):
Because there's a flare will do it.
Lester Baker (44:36):
Yes, right, so now .
So now, well, this toy reallyis a great tool.
Yeah, one of the things that Itook away from the icp is I'm
now looking at doing a live timewatch center my goal is real
time, real time, real time crimecenter yeah, so now you can
call 9-1-1 and the ai is goingto put what's being said on the
officer's screen in the cruiser.
(44:56):
Yeah, if you can geteverybody's ring camera well,
not everybody, because noteveryone's going to be willing
to give them to you- but,everybody that's willing to give
you their ring camera, theirbusiness camera, bank cameras,
school cameras, traffic cameras.
If a 911 call comes in fromMaine and South, everybody
that's registered to that camerais now going to, before the
dispatcher even puts the callout.
The officers are going to seewhat's happening.
(45:17):
They're going to see what'sbeing said.
It's going to happen in livetime.
If you ever meet me in 1996, wewere going to do that I would
say you were crazy.
You watched the Jetsons.
Steve Morreale (45:26):
Isn't that true, I know?
Lester Baker (45:28):
And if I'm not now willing to think about that
today and make sure I do thatbefore I retire, I'm setting
this agency up for failure,because it is my job to make
sure we're on the path for thattechnology, even though it will
come.
It might not get here fullyuntil after I'm gone, but I need
to set us up for success.
Steve Morreale (45:44):
I know that's great, and again we're talking
to Lester Baker, the chief inFramingham.
As you have grown up in theindustry of policing and it has
changed dramatically since thetime you and I pushed a patrol
car Do you see hope?
Do you see value in policing inthe community?
Do you tell new people thatwhile there's noise out there
(46:05):
you have to rise above the fray?
Talk about that.
What do you believe policingwill?
Lester Baker (46:10):
become.
So this is a great question andI'm going to get rather
personal with it, so forgive me.
During the unrest of GeorgeFloyd, I hung my head, I dropped
my shoulders and I walkedaround like the world was ending
.
Now, yes, was that horribletime?
It absolutely was, and I fellright into the same mentality
that everyone else was fallingin.
I questioned what we do, Iquestioned me even being here,
(46:32):
and I call myself.
I think it was very cowardly howI carried myself during certain
phases of that time, and thatwill never, ever, ever, happen
again.
Of course you need us.
Of course the police are needed.
The police are one of thebiggest things in our
communities.
And was that a horrible time?
Absolutely, but I should havekept my chin up, my chest out,
my shoulders back and made surethat I was leading my men have
(46:53):
to rise above it.
So, basically, what I'm sayingis that women in that fashion.
Bad things are going to happen,but you we're always going to
be here.
We'll always be here for thosethat need us, and we got to make
sure that's the way we carry it, whether it's good times or bad
times, and one of the worstthings you could ever let your
men and women see, is thatyou're down in the dumps about
this profession.
Yes, sometimes things get toughand it's time to toughen up and
(47:13):
rise above it, and I'll makesure that I never, ever, make
that mistake again.
Steve Morreale (47:18):
Thank you s o much for taking the time and for
sitting in your car whileyou've got a meeting that you
are supposed to be attending.
I appreciate that, Lester.
Lester Baker (47:25):
Great, I could actually do this all day.
This is like therapy.
Steve Morreale (47:29):
No, I appreciate that very, very much.
So that's another episode ofthe CopDoc podcast in the books.
We've been talking with LesterBaker from Framingham,
massachusetts.
I appreciate that.
I want to tell you that thepodcast continues to grow.
We're now being heard in 85countries and I just got word
that 3,000 cities in thosecountries are listening.
So if you have any ideas aboutwho I should talk to, I'm always
(47:50):
looking for thought leaders,innovative police chiefs and
other police personnel to talkto.
Thanks very much.
Have a good day, stay safe.
Intro/Outro (48:02):
Thanks for listening to The CopDoc Podcast
with Dr Steve Morreale.
Steve is a retired lawenforcement practitioner and
manager, turned academic andscholar from Worcester State
University.
Please tune into The CopDocPodcast for regular episodes of
interviews with thought leadersin policing.
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