March 25, 2025 • 44 mins
The CopDoc Podcast - Episode 150
What does it take to lead one of America's premier federal law enforcement agencies? Jim Ferguson, Special Agent in Charge of ATF's Boston Field Division, takes listeners inside the world of federal firearms investigations, leadership challenges, and the evolution of crime-fighting technology in this compelling conversation.
Ferguson's unexpected journey began when an aptitude test suggested "federal agent" as his ideal career path after three unfulfilling years studying engineering. That pivotal moment led to a thirteen-year assignment in Chicago, where he cut his teeth investigating firearms trafficking patterns among the 10,000-15,000 crime guns recovered annually. Working alongside Chicago police officers, he developed a deep appreciation for the collaborative relationships between federal and local agencies that would later define his leadership approach.
Now overseeing ATF operations across all six New England states, Ferguson reveals the dual nature of ATF's mission - both investigating firearms crimes and ensuring regulatory compliance within the industry. He shares remarkable insights into how technology has transformed investigations, with ballistics analysis now delivered within 48 hours instead of the years it once took, providing crucial intelligence during the critical window after violent crimes.
Perhaps most compelling is Ferguson's leadership philosophy, shaped by both professional experience and personal challenges. Having received a compassionate transfer to care for his father during a terminal illness, he approaches personnel decisions with genuine empathy, recognizing that career moves impact entire families. This human-centered approach extends to his management style, where he emphasizes listening to agents in the field while providing clear direction and mentoring future leaders.
Join this fascinating conversation to understand the complexities of federal law enforcement, the importance of interagency partnerships, and the leadership lessons learned across a distinguished career dedicated to public safety. Whether you're interested in law enforcement, leadership development, or the technological evolution of crime-fighting, Ferguson's insights offer valuable perspective from inside one of America's most specialized federal agencies.
Contact us: copdoc.podcast@gmail.com
Website: www.copdocpodcast.com
If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at stephen.morreale@gmail.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Intro-Outro (00:02):
Welcome to The CopDoc Podcast.
This podcast explores policeleadership issues and innovative
ideas.
The CopDoc shares thoughts andideas as he talks with leaders
in policing communities,academia and other government
agencies.
And now please join Dr SteveMorreale and industry thought
(00:25):
leaders as they share theirinsights and experience on The
CopDoc podcast.
Steve Morreale (00:32):
Hey everybody.
Steve Morreale here, coming toyou from rainy but generally
sunny South Carolina, and I'mheaded back up to Boston, my
hometown, to talk to JimFerguson, who is the special
agent in charge of the Alcohol,tobacco, firearms and Explosives
Agency.
He is in charge of the BostonField Division, which handles
New England.
He and I have worked togethermany years ago and now he's the
(00:54):
hot shot, the big shot.
I want to say hello there, jim.
How are you?
Very well, how about yourselfHanging in there?
Thank you so much for makingthis happen and I think, for the
many people who listen, don'talways get a chance to talk to
somebody who's working at thefederal level and I'd like you
to tell us how you got intopolicing Lauren.
Jim Ferguson (01:11):
So ultimately for me it was a change in my
college career that sort ofbrought some of this forward.
I was thought to be an engineer.
I went to an engineering schooland after three years I
realized I hated it.
And so I went to an engineeringschool and after three years I
realized I hated it.
And so I went to my localguidance counselor and they
(01:33):
offered me a test, to take anaptitude test, and it would
provide you with a list ofcareer choices that it thought
were you were best suited for.
And ultimately, you know, afterthe battery of tests, my list
comes out and number one on thelist was federal agent, and it
was sort of an epiphany for meto make some changes.
So I changed my career or mycareer path, got an internship
with customs, which is actually,I think, when you and I first
(01:56):
met back in the day and thenreally started to look at that
path forward on the federalagent career path and what I
needed to do to make that happen.
Where'd you go to school?
Steve Morreale (02:06):
UMass Lowell.
Okay, so, Umass Lowell, did youfinish your engineering degree?
I did not, no, so you wentsomewhere else.
Jim Ferguson (02:12):
I mean, you finished up doing something else
, right, I did, I just changedmy major and I stayed at UMass,
switched campuses and ultimatelychanged over to criminal
justice.
Steve Morreale (02:22):
Yeah, so you went from the main campus over
to the river campus or the southcampus and did CJ.
Well, that's great, that'sgreat, and here you are.
So let's talk a little bitabout what that means.
So you apply to become afederal agent.
Takes time you finally get in.
You went down to FLETC, Iassume for training, right, yes?
And then where were youstationed?
Jim Ferguson (02:39):
So my first post of duty was Chicago.
You know, never set foot inChicago before, but you know,
back at those times when youapplied at your home office, it
was really sort of an unwrittenrule that you did not stay in
that office.
So I was fully expecting toleave but had never stepped foot
in Chicago and then spent mynext 13 years out there, which
was great.
(03:00):
That's a great town andcertainly busy.
Right, kept you busy.
It's a great place to learn thejob.
Certainly that's a great townand certainly busy.
Right, kept you busy.
Steve Morreale (03:06):
It's a great place to learn the job,
certainly plenty of things to do, and that's what happened.
I went to Newark, where I hadnever been, and in New York all
of the time, and if you can'tlearn how to do, how to apply
your trade there, or Chicago,the major cities, I don't know
where you can.
So what kind of work were youdoing out there and who did
bring you in contact with interms of, I think you and I
talked about it a few minutesago, and one thing about DEA and
(03:26):
ATF is that we are very oftenworking with state, local,
county officials and we bringthe federal view to it.
But how did that work out foryou?
Was that a great trainingground for you, a training
opportunity to work with thelocals?
Jim Ferguson (03:39):
Yeah, it was fantastic, I mean for me my
first day on the job.
I was assigned to a task forcewith the Chicago Police
Department and we worked out ofgang and narcotics section and
there was a team of us thatworked together looking at
firearms trafficking patternsand back then they were taking
in anywhere between 10,000 to15,000 guns each year crime guns
(04:01):
.
So it really gave us a largeswath of opportunity to look at
the various illegal traffickingpatterns that were going on.
And then what really was ofinterest to me was where those
guns were being used and how toactually get from the point of
sale or the origin of thatfirearm and take it through the
gang or the individual that wascreating some of the violence on
(04:22):
the street.
Steve Morreale (04:23):
So you stayed there for 13 years.
What caused you to leave?
Was it time to move on?
Time to come home?
Time to get promoted?
What was the impetus for?
Jim Ferguson (04:31):
that, yeah, I think what happens to a lot of
us in federal careers is we haveaging parents and ultimately I
had a father that contractedcancer and it was an opportunity
for me to come home and spendhis last few months with him and
take him to his appointments.
I promoted in Chicago probablya new supervisor only about a
year before I transferred backhere as a first line supervisor.
Steve Morreale (04:54):
So in essence it was a compassionate transfer I
presume that's what we used tocall it and a horrible reason to
come back, but to be, to bethere in his last days.
That's a memory that you'llcherish the rest of your life
For sure.
So here you are back home byhappenstance, and what did you
begin to see as the difference?
Jim Ferguson (05:12):
Yeah, I mean, listen, as far as crime I mean,
it all sort of culminates in thesame way.
The difference is the scale ofthings, and oftentimes you know
who's who in the zoo isobviously very different, and so
it's one of the things we'regetting to know the local gangs
and who the creators of violenceare, and the trafficking
(05:32):
patterns here in Massachusettsare clearly far different than
they were in Chicago, but verysimilar in the sense that
Chicago or Illinois had a lot offirearms laws, as does
Massachusetts, and so thepredominant influence for that
is guns coming from outside thestate.
Steve Morreale (05:48):
Well, one of the things that strikes me is that
when you get into these casesand you walk into a local police
department obviously Boston,the big one here in New England
and you start talking aboutwho's your pain in the ass, what
are you looking at?
Who are you not able to get?
What are you seeing?
And then you bring in the mightand the power of the federal
government, federal funding andalso using the US Attorney's
(06:10):
Office to put a great deal ofpressure.
How does that help to buildrelationships with local police,
to kind of help solve theirproblems that they have not been
able to put their arms?
Jim Ferguson (06:21):
around For local departments, they're constantly
at a point where they've got farmore work than they have
resources to deal with it and,as far as their personnel having
the ability to dig down intocases, sometimes they're just
limited by resources and sohaving that supplement of the
federal government to come inand really focus on what our
(06:42):
expertise is In ATF's case it'sfirearms and so being able to
utilize the resources that webring to the table to focus
solely on that problem, I thinkit really is a force multiplier
that benefits both agencies.
Steve Morreale (06:58):
Well, I think that's a partnership that's
really very important, and myguess is that as you or your
agents come in, you're coming inas a part, not as some agency
that is superior, and we're incharge that.
You know that jurisdictionalvanity is really unnecessary.
Fair statement.
Jim Ferguson (07:13):
Yeah, and, quite frankly, it's really not the one
or the other, it's thecombination.
That is the magic right.
We have the information fromthe state and locals, which is
literally what's going on on thestreet, real time, and then you
bring in the resources of thefederal government to focus and
devote resources to one soleproblem, and running that to
ground really provides thatrobust task force environment
(07:37):
that really roots out theproblem and deals with it in an
effective way.
Steve Morreale (07:41):
Yeah, you dig deeper, right, and you so talk
about the office You're now incharge of the Boston office.
Dea called it the New EnglandField Division.
You are the Boston FieldDivision, but you have all of
New England.
How does that play out?
By the way, we're talking toJim Ferguson, the special agent
in charge of ATF in Boston, andtalk about the different
components of ATF.
I mean, certainly there areagents, but you have other
(08:02):
elements.
Help people understand that.
Jim Ferguson (08:04):
Yeah, so essentially what ATF is
comprised, as is a complianceside, which is essentially what
does the regulatory authorityfor both federal firearms
licensees and fire federalexplosives licensees, and so
that entity they're working withthe industry to ensure
compliance in the industry.
And then we have our lawenforcement side, which deals in
(08:27):
the law enforcement world.
Steve Morreale (08:28):
And at one point in time.
Well, first of all, there'sbeen a change in the agency.
You were with Treasury, you gotbrought to justice, you're with
justice now and over time, youstarted to focus on fires,
obviously, and explosives.
Jim Ferguson (08:42):
Talk about that element fires, obviously, and
explosives Talk about thatelement Our offices, because of
our history and where we wereborn, from the explosives and
arson.
We're the only federal agencythat actually has arson
jurisdiction.
And again, what ATF is focusedon is violent crime.
Those are really the bigbaskets.
When you look at violent crime,look at firearms, explosives
(09:03):
and arsons, those are reallysort of the big buckets that we
have federal authority on.
That also impact the public ina significant way.
Steve Morreale (09:12):
Without giving away the ranch.
What's the size of your offices?
You have offices in the sixstates.
Some are smaller than othersresident agencies.
Try to help people understandhow ATF is comprised.
Not so much the assets are, butI know having worked at DEA and
HHS.
Some offices we had two, someoffices we had 10, some offices
(09:34):
we had 100.
How does it work out in?
Jim Ferguson (09:35):
your world.
So, as far as our compositionand all of this is online, so
it's pretty well public.
We've got five criminal officeshere in Massachusetts, two
criminal offices in Connecticutand then one criminal group for
every other state in New England, comprised of Rhode Island,
Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine.
The footprint for ourcompliance size is much smaller
(09:57):
than that.
We only have three groups totaland those three groups exist in
two in Massachusetts and one inConnecticut, and those cover
all of New England.
And so, if you look at it froma perspective of number of
employees to ensure compliance,you're looking at thousands of
FFLs and FELs throughout the NewEngland region and we've got
(10:21):
roughly 25 complianceindividuals that work with that?
Steve Morreale (10:25):
Yeah, not very many.
And in terms of agents, you'vegot different groups.
Are there specialties?
Jim Ferguson (10:29):
We do have specialties, the way we've
combined our groups now.
We no longer used to be back inthe day we'd have a bomb and
arson squad that only focused onbomb and arsons.
But as things started to changein the environment for what we
covered and really some of theblurred lines with explosives
(10:50):
and firearms and the reason Ibring that up is oftentimes our
canines our explosive caninesare there for the detection of
explosives, but they're alsocapable of identifying the
explosives that are used infirearms, and so they're used,
and so those resources were nolonger solely for the bomb and
arson squad.
(11:10):
So we've got a variety in NewEngland of both certified
explosive specialists, bombtechs, as well as certified
firearms investigators.
Steve Morreale (11:20):
That's crazy.
So one of the things you know,the podcast focuses on
innovation leadership.
You certainly have hadexperience working for people
who approach the job in adifferent way.
I think there's generationaldifferences in leaders, and you
came in and you watched as asupervisor and that is an ASAC,
I suppose, and now as thespecial agent in charge.
(11:40):
How many are there in thecountry SACs?
We have 25.
So it's a very small number of25.
And let's talk about theFerguson approach.
I'm not talking about the city,by the way, yes, but the
Ferguson approach to runningmeetings and to engaging others
in the conversation around thetable.
What do you do now?
(12:01):
That helps to draw people inand seek new ideas and seek to
understand how do your meetingsgo.
Jim Ferguson (12:08):
So I think one of the most important things you
can do in a meeting is listenright.
Ideally, whatever I do is notnecessarily the value add that
everyone sees for ATF.
It's what my agents andindustry operations
investigators do.
That work on the ground isreally where ATF.
It's what my agents andindustry operations
investigators do.
That work on the ground isreally where ATF gets its
(12:28):
reputation, and so that's thebackbone of what this agency is
and our value add to not onlyour community as a whole, but
certainly our law enforcementcommunity.
So it's very important for me tolisten and understand where our
problems are and where are,quite frankly, also not only our
problems but also where ourstrengths and, quite frankly,
(12:50):
are the benefits that we bring,so that I can do a better job at
highlighting and bringingawareness to the good things
that all the groups do andessentially you prevent one.
You know that's something thatyou can't necessarily tabulate,
but are really impactful whenyou look at the community and
public safety as a whole.
(13:11):
So I need to have my ear to theground.
So it's very important for methat I am a good listener, but I
also need to have vision anddirection for where I so that
people have an understanding ofwhat it is that I believe is
success and, ultimately, where Ithink our resources are best
suited.
But again, part of that is adialogue to come in and just
(13:31):
simply give the hard line.
This is what we're going to do.
There's a time and place forthat.
But as far as in general, it'svery important and I think more
important to listen so you cantruly understand what's
impacting your agency.
Steve Morreale (13:43):
I think, as leaders too, we have to pay
attention no different than theagency did for you when you had
an issue with your dad that theylistened and they didn't have
to.
They say, well, fly back andforth when you have to, but we
need you here, and I supposethat treatment of you by your
predecessor bosses must play arole when you're talking to
people who are facing somedifficulty.
Is that a fair statement?
Jim Ferguson (14:04):
Without a doubt.
I mean empathy is a tremendoustool and, ultimately, having an
appreciation for what that means, having been gone for 13 years.
When my dad got sick, I saw himtwice a year and so my kids saw
him twice a year, and so thatwas really important for me to
spend the end of his life withhim and to be able to have my
(14:25):
kids to have that opportunity,and that's absolutely something
that I want to pay forward.
If I can help anyone to get tothat situation, because it's
part of the job.
It's what we've all done.
We get up, we leave, we startour post of duties elsewhere,
but people need to recognizethat families are the backbone
of everything that we do.
The job is just part of it.
Steve Morreale (14:44):
Need to recognize that families are the
backbone of everything that wedo.
The job's just part of it.
Yeah, I like to hear that.
I'm thinking for a moment.
One mass hole talking toanother.
If most people won't understand, that's what we're called
sometimes, Not an asshole, but amass hole?
Yes, yes, and I mean that inthe nicest sense, but
nonetheless, when you were inChicago, were you dragged into
that crazy frenzied cityfocusing on their professional
(15:06):
teams, or did you remain aBostonian?
Oh, no, no, I always remained aBostonian.
Jim Ferguson (15:11):
Yeah, and I.
Any chance that I got, Ipromoted all the sports teams
here, and you know, especiallywith Chicago because they have
that rivalry we do.
1986 Super Bowl, which you knowto date myself a little bit,
was one of the first teammeetings that we had at one of
the task force officerssergeant's house.
And we're in there and he says,hey, push play on the VCR.
(15:33):
That's how long ago it was.
And sure enough in his VCR wasthe 1986 Super Bowl.
Steve Morreale (15:38):
Yeah, let's, let's start this conversation
right.
Jim Ferguson (15:41):
Yeah, I'm well aware how this game ended.
Steve Morreale (15:43):
Yeah, we don't have to revisit it.
I like it.
I like it.
Chicago is a great city.
Let's talk about you and yourown development.
Do you feel that theorganization got you ready for
the next step?
You know you want to become agroup supervisor.
You go to some training, youbecome an ASAC.
Maybe you go to some training,become a SAC and you're now in a
very small group of people 25in the entire country.
(16:05):
How did you find your way tofind your leadership style and
approach?
Jim Ferguson (16:09):
Honest, I would have to say that I just fell
into it.
You know, again, I never gotinto this job to do this job.
I came into ATF to be an agent,to do, you know, investigations
, not to be a boss.
And so, quite frankly, if youwere to ask the 25 years ago
version of myself, I would havetold you you were out of your
(16:30):
mind.
If you would tell me that I was, I'd be here, because this is
not what my career aspirationswere.
I was very, very happy being anagent very much like the
casework, probably the best timein my professional career.
But the opportunities came downthe pike.
First one was to promote to getback home.
Being promoted in Chicago gaveme a better shot at being able
(16:50):
to transfer back to Boston.
And then there's a very definedcareer path in the government
right.
So there's agent first linesupervisor, ASAC, and then
choice of headquarters, timewhere you wanted to do that.
And then, once you're halfwaydown that road, it's better to
continue down that road so thatyou can that more beneficial for
(17:11):
you in retirement.
Steve Morreale (17:12):
Let's talk about developing others.
How important is mentoring,coaching and developing others?
I think it's the most important.
Jim Ferguson (17:19):
I mean, if I'm doing a good job, the people
that are sitting at the ASACs orthe group supervisors, those
should be the people that takemy place.
How?
Steve Morreale (17:27):
do you identify people like that?
What are you watching?
Is there something that you, asa leader, see in others, where
you begin to coach them anddevelop them and kind of push
them along, provide someopportunities for them to be
tested and opportunities fortraining and such?
Jim Ferguson (17:43):
Again, one of the most important things I think
about being a leader is knowingyour organization, and so one of
the things that I have done ona routine basis is, when you see
those people, that number onehave the talent to do it and an
interest, is to provide theopportunities that really round
them out and allow them tounderstand the agency as a whole
(18:04):
and getting a chance to see howthe different directorates
interact, getting to see andimmerse themselves in
headquarters details that willgive them that line of sight to
see the agency and, quitefrankly, our mission in a
different way and how some ofthe mundane things that the
division or headquarters asksthem to do they get to see.
(18:26):
On the other side of that, why,where does that information go
and why is it important and whois it important to?
And so that to me, isdefinitely part of the grooming
process is getting them tounderstand more about the agency
so they're better suited tomake decisions down the road so
you touched on something.
Steve Morreale (18:45):
I think that's important and there's so many
times, I suppose, that you'vebeen told we want to put you
here, or we want to put you here, want to put you here, and you
go kicking and screaming becauseyou're very comfortable where
you are and in some cases it'sabout helping you become
comfortable with beinguncomfortable.
That's sort of.
It's almost that.
To me it's the test, it's thelitmus test of whether or not
(19:07):
people can function beyond theold Peter Prince or beyond where
they are comfortable.
Yeah, so talk about that alittle bit.
I see a little smirk on yourface.
You know what I'm talking about.
Jim Ferguson (19:15):
I think that that fits perfectly for my career.
I got back to Boston and here Iwas, back home and thought that
this was where I was going tostay, and a little less than two
years after my dad passed I gotput on the voluntold list,
which was a list to go toheadquarters for you know,
essentially permanentreassignments for physicians and
(19:36):
so talked to some people I knewthat were serving time in
headquarters and said is thisreal?
Am I going to get drafted to go?
And they said yeah, they'repulling from that list.
And so at that point in time Irealized that that was a true
possibility for me, and so Ilooked at what I wanted to do
and where I thought my skill setwas best suited.
So I took a position in ourfirearms operations division,
(19:58):
which probably, as far as myprofessional career and getting
out of my comfort zone andreally transitioning the way I
think about things, was probablyone of the most beneficial to
me.
Steve Morreale (20:09):
So when you have those conversations with people
in a lot of ways, I just spentsome time at a command college,
we just finished up down atLiberty University and we talk
about these things, aboutsomebody who stays in patrol I'm
talking about local or somebodygoes to canine or somebody goes
into narcotics task force orsuch that ultimately it's not
permanent, that we need to makeroom for other people to get
(20:31):
that same experience, thatexperience.
But when that happens and theboss calls you in, sometimes
it's punitive, but most of thetime it's because I want to
round you out.
I want you to know more aboutthe organization is exactly what
you said.
What kinds of conversations doyou have to try to make people
understand exactly what you said, the why?
Jim Ferguson (20:48):
Yeah, I think one of the most important aspects
of that is truly understandingthat there are families behind
these people and, thoughalthough it may be beneficial
from their career, approachingit with the individuals in
ensuring that their family willhave what it needs to thrive.
I think is an important part ofthat conversation, because all
(21:11):
too often we spend more time atwork sometimes than we spend
with our families, which createssome divides.
And ultimately, if you go intoa conversation, understanding
that that's what people arethinking is how is this going to
impact my family?
Coming at it from thatperspective, like hey, I know
that you've got a son ordaughter that are going to be
(21:32):
going into high school.
This is a good time for them toget in, and here's why.
And having those conversationswhere you are at least
recognizing that this impactssomebody beyond the individual
getting transferred.
Steve Morreale (21:43):
You're beginning to talk about wellness and
work-life balance, which issomething that is not easy for
federal agents or even policeofficers to deal with.
I remember this, Jim and I wasdoing a training and there
happened to be a provinceofficer, a sergeant, and we were
talking about wellness and whatthis does to our lives and
families, because we becomedevoted to this and sometimes
(22:05):
myopic and just getting the casedone and chasing that SOB that
he said in the class.
You know, Steve, what I'mhearing you say and what I've
just realized is this that Ispend so much time on the job,
give so much time to the job,that when I get home, the best I
give my family is crumbs.
And that was pretty damning andit was kind of a punch in the
(22:26):
face because I think I've beenguilty of it, Maybe you've been
guilty of it in the past, andhow do we overcome that?
So just having thatconversation and you, Jim,
having that perspective thatfamily is important, is
important.
How important and essential isit for ATF?
We're talking to Jim Fergusonfrom the Boston Office of
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearmsabout wellness and resilience
(22:50):
and understanding our peopleyour people, our colleagues, see
stuff they can never unsee.
How do you deal with it as anagency?
Jim Ferguson (22:57):
Thankfully, the agency has a pretty good peer
support program, which I'm alsoa part of.
You know it's a good resource,but I don't think there's
anybody that's more as the SAChere.
I have the opportunity tointeract with everyone, but I
don't necessarily spend the timewith individuals that I know
when they're off and they mayact slightly different when they
(23:20):
speak to me anyway, and so itreally is incumbent upon the
team to keep the team togetherand make sure everybody stays
health.
For me, I really want to stressthat we need to look out for
each other because we know whatnorms are.
If you spend every day the typeof time that we spend together,
the type of time that we needto look out for each other
because we know what norms are.
If you spend every day the typeof time that we spend together,
the type of time that we spendin cars together, you know,
(23:42):
regardless of what the tasks are, you know we spend an ordinate
amount of time very, very closewith each other and you get to
know somebody.
You get to know somebody'stells if they're having a hard
time or if they're focused onthe wrong thing or, worse yet,
they're withdrawing, and so it'sreally for me.
I try to stress the team likewe've got to take care of each
other and anything that I can doto support that, whether that
(24:05):
be bringing in the peer supportteam or providing the counseling
numbers that we've gotavailable.
If somebody has a problem.
You know those are the firststeps, but it really is.
The workload really becomesunder the teams that you work
with because they're going tosee it first.
Steve Morreale (24:22):
I'm thinking about your leadership style.
If you think back to the wayyou began, you know we get
thrown into these positions andone day you're an agent, the
next day you're a groupsupervisor and you're not going
to get training necessarilyright away and you're now
responsible not only foryourself, but for other people.
Someone's driving theexpectations right.
This is what we need.
We need this.
Where's your case?
Where's your arrests?
(24:42):
Where's the search warrant?
Whatever, whatever it might be,and over time, I think we make
our mistakes.
We're fallible.
The big question I have for youdo you lead today the same way
as you did 15 or 20 years ago?
Jim Ferguson (24:57):
No.
Steve Morreale (24:57):
Tell me what has changed and how you grow and
how you modify and what causesthese things to change your
approach.
Jim Ferguson (25:05):
You know, I think to your point there comes a
time where you are a line agentand then the next day you're a
supervisor and you didn'treceive any additional training
and you now have to be the boss.
And you have to be the bosswithout having any sort of
formalized experience, butbearing all the brunt of all the
(25:25):
success or failures of yourgroup.
And I always say that as aspecial agent, you have your
problems.
As a group supervisor, you haveeveryone's problems in the group
, and that is part of it ishaving that understanding that
just because I would deal withsomething one way doesn't mean
that the agent that I'm dealingwith would want to do it the
(25:46):
same way.
And so I look back on that and Ithink, because of the way that
that transition happens, there'sinsecurity.
There has to be right.
I mean you come into this andnow, all of a sudden, the very
next day, you're the boss andyou have to make the call and
you have to be that bridgebetween the division and the
working agents.
(26:06):
And so I think that withmaturity and experience, you
have the ability to not onlyrecognize problems before they
happen, but you also have agreater comfort in dealing with
those problems because you'vebeen there before and, even if
you had the worst supervisor inthe world, you learn something
from them, even if it was, uh,not to do that.
(26:27):
So experience is one of thosethings that you just can't
replace, because it gives peoplethe confidence to handle things
that ordinarily they may feelpressure one way or the other.
Steve Morreale (26:37):
So somebody gets promoted in your division by
the way, talking to Jim Ferguson, he is the special agent in
charge of ATF in Boston, theBoston field division Somebody
gets promoted, obviously.
You've had a hand in that andis a process for that.
And they're new, let's say it'sa new group supervisor.
Do you get a chance to talkwith them or do you leave that
to the ASAC?
Jim Ferguson (26:54):
No, I try to do.
I do it with, actually, eventhe new agents that we get.
I think it's really importantto provide some really basic
information that, as you know,when you get into this job, your
first couple of weeks oforientation you're trying to
figure out what your thriftsavings plan is, what your
insurance plan is, and then, ifyou relocated here, how do you
(27:15):
even get to the office, right?
So there's a lot of that stuffthat what do you do first?
You know, over the years yousee a lot of different sort of
recommendations for what peopleneed to do when they're new, and
so I have a sheet.
It's literally a sheet, and ifyou want to be successful, these
are some of the things that youshould do.
It's literally a sheet, and ifyou want to be successful, these
are some of the things that youshould do.
(27:36):
Participate in a trial,especially if it's not yours,
because there's no better way toview a case than watching it
being picked apart on the standand understanding what we're
doing in the field and why we'redoing it the way we're doing it
, because it matters when you'reon court and you're having to
take the stand and representyour case fact.
So I really think that thatdialogue is important, not only
for new supervisors but foranybody coming into a position,
(27:59):
so that you give them at least aroadmap for success and if they
didn't know what to do, maybeit gives them one or two tips
that helps them along the way.
Steve Morreale (28:08):
So you've got a check sheet.
So now, if somebody comes inand be a supervisor or even your
ASAC Again, I'm aiming towardstrying to understand how you set
expectations.
Jim Ferguson (28:17):
Yeah.
So expectations, you know, andit depends if it's an ASAC,
that's a different set ofexpectations for then first line
supervisors.
And so, looking and workingwith supervisors and having held
that position, I recognize whatthat position is.
Right, You're the gatekeeperbetween the agents and the work
that they do and the divisionand the information sort of
(28:38):
connectivity that they need tohave and making sure that they
understand that management is alot of communication and making
sure that you're not onlycommunicating up but
communicating down and settingexpectations for their people.
Being transparent Nobody wantsthe rules to change and so if
you have changes, make sure thatthey understand what those
(28:59):
changes are, how they're goingto impact them and how you're
going to get through it together.
Steve Morreale (29:04):
So I'm curious to know when you're sitting
around the table with yourcommand staff?
We've already talked about youbeing willing to listen, but do
you set an agenda?
Do you look for things thathave been done differently so
that you can learn from eachother?
Do you look at mistakes thathappen?
Try to learn from those, to usethose as teachable moments?
Jim Ferguson (29:24):
As I said, I think communication is vital,
and not only communication to me, but also an understanding of
what's going on in the division.
I pulled staff meetings on aregular basis that everybody
comes in there, everybody talksabout what the priorities for
the weeks are, what we see aspotential issues coming down the
pike, everything fromoperational to funding, and this
(29:46):
way we're telegraphing thatinformation out there so that
everybody in the command staffknows what that is and can
filter that information as theysee fit to the teams that it
impacts.
Steve Morreale (29:57):
Your agents sometimes are placed on detail.
How do you handle that?
Because everything else comesto a halt If there's a case and
there's a case agent, they'redoing something else Washington
or wherever how do you?
Jim Ferguson (30:06):
handle that.
When you're talking about thetypes of investigations that
we're doing, they just can'ttake a break.
So if we've got any type ofextended leave for one reason or
another you mentioned details,which certainly happens those
are typically anywhere between90 and 120 days at a whack.
You were looking at thedownside to that.
If you were to leave cases openfor 90 or 120 days and let's
(30:29):
say you were looking at anillegal gun trafficker, how many
guns got on the street in 90 or120 days?
It's just not feasible for usto simply just walk away from
cases.
So there has to be a transition.
Those cases that are ongoingand active and that we have
known criminal violationshappening that are impacting
public safety, those take thepriority and those will get
(30:50):
reassigned as needed.
And if the case agent leaves,comes back and case is still
ongoing, it's their case again.
But we don't have the luxury ofjust sitting there waiting for
him or her to come back.
Steve Morreale (31:01):
That's a delicate balance that you have
to play because headquarters isleaning on you for some people,
because everybody's going toshare the pain right about going
to this detail or anotherdetail while keeping the case
chugging along, which isimportant.
I mean, I understand, in drugcases sometimes we would have a
CR and we wouldn't be able tohave any buy money.
On one day we're going to buy$30,000 worth of drugs and the
(31:23):
next day you say you can't.
It's kind of a signal, don'tyou think?
I know you face that too, sospeak to that, because I don't
think most people understandthat.
Jim Ferguson (31:30):
Yeah, I mean, finances can always be
challenging and ultimately, forguns, we're not typically
looking to spend $10,000,$20,000 on any one gift buy, but
on average we spend anywherebetween $30,000 to $50,000 a
month on agent cashier andthat's something that is
(31:51):
critical for us.
If we're going to continue toidentify criminal activity, we
have to be able to have themoney available to pay
informants to utilize forundercover operations.
That's vital for sure.
Steve Morreale (32:03):
So you tap somebody on the shoulder and you
say to them I think it might betime for you to consider a new
position, in other words to putin for a position.
The rotation in a headquartersis never easy, but again it
helps to round you out.
But as you're having thatconversation with somebody, what
kinds of guidance do you givethem?
What kinds of coaching do yougive them about considering
stepping into the next spot?
Jim Ferguson (32:24):
I think part of the challenge is and I'm sure
this is the same way in DEA,with ATF when you come on the
job, headquarters is almost likethe land of the abyss, right?
Nobody wants to go there andultimately, if you have been
tapped on the shoulder to go,that could be a bad thing.
It could be a good thing.
It's kind of dispelling therumors, quite frankly.
(32:45):
That will allow us to getpeople to understand how the
cases come together, why we dothings in the field.
That feeds the beast atheadquarters and then really
giving people the understandingof hey look, your authority
right now pertains to whathappens here in the New England
Field Division.
(33:05):
However, in headquarters you'retouching things nationwide or
international sometimes, and sohaving them understand the
opportunity that's there forthem to broaden their horizons,
to get that experience, allowsthem to swallow the pill,
sometimes a little bit easier.
Steve Morreale (33:23):
Well, I think when you go to headquarters too,
it does open your eyes.
You might go kicking andshoving, but it opens your eyes
to a much broader view.
What are you most proud of withATF and what it's accomplished,
and even what's beingaccomplished in the Boston as
far as the Boston Field Division, it's the people.
Jim Ferguson (33:38):
Again, as I said earlier, it's the people that do
the work on the ground.
That really is the benefit ofwhat ATF is, and I'm really
proud of the people here in theBoston Field Division that do
such tremendous work that reallybenefit the public here.
And, quite frankly, the otherthing that I'm most proud of is
the relationships, and those gohand in hand.
(33:59):
You alluded to it earlier.
We are ATF's unofficial slopeand is no better partner, and so
we've got some phenomenalrelationships with our state and
local partners that really Icouldn't be any more proud of,
with our state and localpartners that really I couldn't
be any more proud of.
I mean, whether we needsomething or they need something
, it's reciprocal and theagencies are there to support
one another.
Steve Morreale (34:18):
Can you talk about something that happened
recently?
I'm talking about a case thatmost people I think to myself,
having been an agent myself, andI know you too, that it's not
easy.
I'm not suggesting that clearly.
We see what's going on withlocal law enforcement.
There were several killingslast week, which is just
horrible to see Most of themwith guns, one with a knife.
But this is dangerous work.
(34:38):
It's sexy work at times andit's boring work at times.
Surveillance sucks right andworking undercover is
exhilarating, but it can beboring and it can be also
dangerous.
Now, now talk about that aspectof the job and the way you see
it through your eyes as a boss.
Jim Ferguson (34:56):
You know, as far as some of the things that I
think ATF brings to the table,our ballistics program has come
literally galaxies from where itwas.
Nibin is a program that linksballistics together so that you
understand related crime scenesand you can identify that what
gun was responsible for whatcrimes.
And you know that was a processthat if you were to ask this
(35:18):
question 10 years ago, thatinformation would take a year
and a half, two years to getback.
And, as you well know, they'vegot TV shows now called the
First 48.
The reason is the first 48hours of a homicide or a
shooting are vital, so to getinformation years later the
value of that information issignificantly tarnished, maybe
(35:41):
less valuable because othermeans aren't there, whether it
be phone records, geolocationinformation, things like this.
And so now our program, as longas it gets to the system, the
results will be provided within24 to 48 hours, which is truly
vital to not only the linedetectives that are working
those cases but even our agentswhen they're looking.
(36:02):
We buy a gun that will officesomebody and we determine we're
in the middle of a firearmstrafficking investigation.
And now we run that gun anddetermine that it was used in a
shooting two days before.
Again, that changes the scopeof the investigation for us and
it really puts a bigger targeton that individual, because it's
not just the possession or saleof a gun now.
Now we know that it's linked toviolent gun crime.
(36:23):
So I'm really happy about wherewe are now in the NIBIN world
and the ballistics and even ourtracing program.
Again, when I started this job,we would literally fill out a
form, fax it in and the resultswere mailed to us.
That's how we got those results, and so technology changing has
provided vital criminalintelligence to us in a much
(36:46):
quicker way.
That is more relevant andnecessary for filing crime
investigations.
Steve Morreale (36:51):
Well, speaking of technology, talking to Jim as
we wind down from ATF in Boston, technology is certainly
changing quite rapidly.
How is it impeding someinvestigations, the old
encryption stuff and the thingsthat we're all trying to kind of
chase behind as we realizewhat's going signal and all of
those kinds of things.
Jim Ferguson (37:10):
As you well know, law enforcement can't address a
problem until we know there's aproblem, and so some of the
great technology that our kidsuse become hurdles in
investigations.
Years ago Title IIIinvestigations if somebody was
on a phone, they conducted theirbusiness on the phone.
You went up on the phones andyou got it.
It's a different era now, andnow it's a much different.
(37:31):
You need different equipment tobe able to monitor things.
Some things become encryptedand more difficult to monitor
real time, and so all of thatputs law enforcement behind the
eight ball when it comes toreally getting into the heart of
organizations, which is theircommunication.
Steve Morreale (37:48):
Well, you know, I went to a DEA event, an Afton
event, a couple of months agoand I was listening to agents
that are far younger than youand I, and you're listening to
these guys and they're talkingabout technology and what
they're trying to do and howthey're approaching it.
I'm not sure that we could dothe job today, because we're not
digital natives like theseyoung bucks are.
Jim Ferguson (38:08):
No, I mean again, when you and I came on, wiring
up and informant was an entirelydifferent process than it is
now.
And this generation, I mean,they're born with phones in
their hands.
I mean, I remember my firstphone when I got it, when I got
on this job, we were assignedpagers, so it was different
times, but you know, there'sgood and bad in it all.
(38:29):
I think one of the thingsthat's great is their ability to
look at technology.
One of the things that I findand maybe this is anecdotal for
me, but you know, the art of acommunication or interviewing is
changing because people deal somuch on their phones and
interact without necessarilyactually using their voice and
sometimes AI is.
Steve Morreale (38:49):
I mean, think about what AI is going to do to
some people and AI voices andvoice matching, and it's going
to make it be much moredifficult.
We're winding down as we get tothe end.
Jim, what kind of hope do youhave for agents coming on?
Are you having recruitingissues?
Is there still an interest inthe feds?
Are we seeing the same sort ofproblems in the federal agencies
(39:12):
that we're seeing at the locallevel?
Jim Ferguson (39:14):
Yes, Hiring and retention are tremendously
difficult right now, going back20 plus years.
If the agency gave a test,ultimately the test would fill
up in hours or a day, and nowwe're leaving that vacancy open
for two weeks and not evenfilling the people necessarily.
(39:34):
To really get a strongapplicant pool, they say it's
around 10%, so if a thousandpeople apply, really we only get
a hundred people that make itthrough, and then they have to
take the job, so they have towant to go where the agency has
needs, and so all of thosethings have been tremendously
difficult.
And then the overall,unfortunately, the negative
(39:56):
perception of law enforcementhas certainly impacted that,
even at the federal level.
Steve Morreale (40:01):
I'm disappointed to hear that, but I'm certainly
not surprised.
So, as you come to the end,what message would you give to
people who might be on the fenceabout potentially considering a
job in the feds?
Given that you are probablygoing to have to move, that you
are going to be put in somesituations that are
uncomfortable sometimes, in thehopes of getting home at some
(40:23):
point in your career, whatadvice would you give?
Is it a noble profession still,especially at ATF?
Jim Ferguson (40:28):
It is.
And again, I've had and I'meligible for retirement at this
point and have the luxury ofbeing able to look back, and at
the time that I was coming on, Ididn't necessarily
differentiate between one agencyor another.
Right, our job series as 1811sare the same in DEA as it is ATF
as it is an FBI.
So when I was applying for jobs, I applied for all of those
(40:52):
jobs and went through all ofthose processes and, as you said
, it is a lengthy process.
I think it took me just underthree years from the time that I
applied until the time that Icame on.
It's a long wait for a job.
Huh, it's a long wait for a job, and what I would tell you is
it is certainly worthwhile.
On the other end and I couldnot be any more happy that now,
knowing all the agencies, like Idid, I think I fit in the right
(41:15):
place.
I think ATF was a tremendousfit for me.
I think that the work that wedo is in line with my instance,
so it was a great fit.
But you have to persevere andyou have to really want it and
you have to be willing to getout of your comfort zone, as you
previously meant, because,ultimately and this is the
advice that I got from at thetime a customs agent who was at
(41:36):
the end of his career.
He said if you really want todo this, stay in the federal
government, because there's abenefit for that for you,
because your leave and yourretirement will compound, but,
more importantly, you won't haveto leave.
You start your career at BostonPolice Department or some other
police department.
By the time the feds call youmay have several years of
seniority with that departmentand you may not want to leave.
(41:59):
And so that was great advicefor me, because it allowed me to
get into the federal governmentand kind of cut my teeth and,
quite frankly, give meopportunities to apply for other
jobs that otherwise I wouldn'tbe able to apply for.
Steve Morreale (42:10):
Yeah, look at you, jim Ferguson, the Special
Agent in Charge.
Who'd have thunk that?
Not me.
I'd say that right now.
Well, you're one lucky guy andthey're, I think, lucky to have
you.
Hopefully you're paying forwardto try to do the same thing
that somebody told you how totake this job, how to approach
this job and how to benefit fromit, both for the government,
the country and for you and yourfamily, no, without a doubt.
(42:32):
Well, thank you, jim.
I very much appreciate it.
We've been talking to JimFerguson.
He is now the special agent incharge of the Boston Field
Division for the Bureau ofAlcohol, tobacco, firearms and
Explosives, although ATF is thename that's used the most.
I appreciate your time, jim.
One last word If you had achoice to talk to anybody in the
(42:53):
business that you've not beenable to talk to to gather some
advice, who would you want tochat?
Steve Morreale, ah, you'redoing that already, buddy.
Jim Ferguson (42:59):
Okay, you got one .
No, I don't.
That's a great question.
You know, ultimately, thepeople that I admire the most
are the people you know.
When you think of lawenforcement, you know there's
one name that always surfaced tothe top Bill Bratton is one of
those guys who's just anincredible visionary and has
proven success, you know, in amultitude of different agencies
and multitude of sizes, and soI'd love to get the opportunity
(43:20):
to meet with people like that.
But you know, I'm fortunateenough in my position that I get
to meet and work with a lot ofgreat people.
I mean, michael Cox is thecommissioner here in Boston, and
he's not only an outstandingleader but an outstanding
individual, and so it really isa privilege to be able to get to
work.
Steve Morreale (43:37):
That's great.
Well, thank you so much foryour time.
I wish you the best in yourcareer and wherever it brings
you later, and my best to yourfamily.
So, jim, thank you very muchfor being here.
Thanks very much, steve.
Appreciate it, no problem.
Well, that's it.
Another episode is in the books.
We're learning that people arelistening to this podcast from
86 countries and more than 3,000cities and towns, which just
boggles my mind.
(43:57):
So, keep listening.
Thanks for your feedback, andif you have somebody I should be
talking to reach out to me.
Thanks very much.
Have a good day.
Intro-Outro (44:06):
Thanks for listening to The CopDoc Podcast
with Dr Steve Morreale.
Steve is a retired lawenforcement practitioner and
manager, turned academic andscholar from Worcester State
University.
Please tune into The Cop DocPodcast for regular episodes of
interviews with thought leadersin policing.
Welcome to The CopDoc Podcast.
This podcast explores policeleadership issues and innovative
ideas.
The CopDoc shares thoughts andideas as he talks with leaders
in policing communities,academia and other government
agencies.
And now please join Dr SteveMorreale and industry thought
(00:25):
leaders as they share theirinsights and experience on The
CopDoc podcast.
Steve Morreale (00:32):
Hey everybody.
Steve Morreale here, coming toyou from rainy but generally
sunny South Carolina, and I'mheaded back up to Boston, my
hometown, to talk to JimFerguson, who is the special
agent in charge of the Alcohol,tobacco, firearms and Explosives
Agency.
He is in charge of the BostonField Division, which handles
New England.
He and I have worked togethermany years ago and now he's the
(00:54):
hot shot, the big shot.
I want to say hello there, jim.
How are you?
Very well, how about yourselfHanging in there?
Thank you so much for makingthis happen and I think, for the
many people who listen, don'talways get a chance to talk to
somebody who's working at thefederal level and I'd like you
to tell us how you got intopolicing Lauren.
Jim Ferguson (01:11):
So ultimately for me it was a change in my
college career that sort ofbrought some of this forward.
I was thought to be an engineer.
I went to an engineering schooland after three years I
realized I hated it.
And so I went to an engineeringschool and after three years I
realized I hated it.
And so I went to my localguidance counselor and they
(01:33):
offered me a test, to take anaptitude test, and it would
provide you with a list ofcareer choices that it thought
were you were best suited for.
And ultimately, you know, afterthe battery of tests, my list
comes out and number one on thelist was federal agent, and it
was sort of an epiphany for meto make some changes.
So I changed my career or mycareer path, got an internship
with customs, which is actually,I think, when you and I first
(01:56):
met back in the day and thenreally started to look at that
path forward on the federalagent career path and what I
needed to do to make that happen.
Where'd you go to school?
Steve Morreale (02:06):
UMass Lowell.
Okay, so, Umass Lowell, did youfinish your engineering degree?
I did not, no, so you wentsomewhere else.
Jim Ferguson (02:12):
I mean, you finished up doing something else
, right, I did, I just changedmy major and I stayed at UMass,
switched campuses and ultimatelychanged over to criminal
justice.
Steve Morreale (02:22):
Yeah, so you went from the main campus over
to the river campus or the southcampus and did CJ.
Well, that's great, that'sgreat, and here you are.
So let's talk a little bitabout what that means.
So you apply to become afederal agent.
Takes time you finally get in.
You went down to FLETC, Iassume for training, right, yes?
And then where were youstationed?
Jim Ferguson (02:39):
So my first post of duty was Chicago.
You know, never set foot inChicago before, but you know,
back at those times when youapplied at your home office, it
was really sort of an unwrittenrule that you did not stay in
that office.
So I was fully expecting toleave but had never stepped foot
in Chicago and then spent mynext 13 years out there, which
was great.
(03:00):
That's a great town andcertainly busy.
Right, kept you busy.
It's a great place to learn thejob.
Certainly that's a great townand certainly busy.
Right, kept you busy.
Steve Morreale (03:06):
It's a great place to learn the job,
certainly plenty of things to do, and that's what happened.
I went to Newark, where I hadnever been, and in New York all
of the time, and if you can'tlearn how to do, how to apply
your trade there, or Chicago,the major cities, I don't know
where you can.
So what kind of work were youdoing out there and who did
bring you in contact with interms of, I think you and I
talked about it a few minutesago, and one thing about DEA and
(03:26):
ATF is that we are very oftenworking with state, local,
county officials and we bringthe federal view to it.
But how did that work out foryou?
Was that a great trainingground for you, a training
opportunity to work with thelocals?
Jim Ferguson (03:39):
Yeah, it was fantastic, I mean for me my
first day on the job.
I was assigned to a task forcewith the Chicago Police
Department and we worked out ofgang and narcotics section and
there was a team of us thatworked together looking at
firearms trafficking patternsand back then they were taking
in anywhere between 10,000 to15,000 guns each year crime guns
(04:01):
.
So it really gave us a largeswath of opportunity to look at
the various illegal traffickingpatterns that were going on.
And then what really was ofinterest to me was where those
guns were being used and how toactually get from the point of
sale or the origin of thatfirearm and take it through the
gang or the individual that wascreating some of the violence on
(04:22):
the street.
Steve Morreale (04:23):
So you stayed there for 13 years.
What caused you to leave?
Was it time to move on?
Time to come home?
Time to get promoted?
What was the impetus for?
Jim Ferguson (04:31):
that, yeah, I think what happens to a lot of
us in federal careers is we haveaging parents and ultimately I
had a father that contractedcancer and it was an opportunity
for me to come home and spendhis last few months with him and
take him to his appointments.
I promoted in Chicago probablya new supervisor only about a
year before I transferred backhere as a first line supervisor.
Steve Morreale (04:54):
So in essence it was a compassionate transfer I
presume that's what we used tocall it and a horrible reason to
come back, but to be, to bethere in his last days.
That's a memory that you'llcherish the rest of your life
For sure.
So here you are back home byhappenstance, and what did you
begin to see as the difference?
Jim Ferguson (05:12):
Yeah, I mean, listen, as far as crime I mean,
it all sort of culminates in thesame way.
The difference is the scale ofthings, and oftentimes you know
who's who in the zoo isobviously very different, and so
it's one of the things we'regetting to know the local gangs
and who the creators of violenceare, and the trafficking
(05:32):
patterns here in Massachusettsare clearly far different than
they were in Chicago, but verysimilar in the sense that
Chicago or Illinois had a lot offirearms laws, as does
Massachusetts, and so thepredominant influence for that
is guns coming from outside thestate.
Steve Morreale (05:48):
Well, one of the things that strikes me is that
when you get into these casesand you walk into a local police
department obviously Boston,the big one here in New England
and you start talking aboutwho's your pain in the ass, what
are you looking at?
Who are you not able to get?
What are you seeing?
And then you bring in the mightand the power of the federal
government, federal funding andalso using the US Attorney's
(06:10):
Office to put a great deal ofpressure.
How does that help to buildrelationships with local police,
to kind of help solve theirproblems that they have not been
able to put their arms?
Jim Ferguson (06:21):
around For local departments, they're constantly
at a point where they've got farmore work than they have
resources to deal with it and,as far as their personnel having
the ability to dig down intocases, sometimes they're just
limited by resources and sohaving that supplement of the
federal government to come inand really focus on what our
(06:42):
expertise is In ATF's case it'sfirearms and so being able to
utilize the resources that webring to the table to focus
solely on that problem, I thinkit really is a force multiplier
that benefits both agencies.
Steve Morreale (06:58):
Well, I think that's a partnership that's
really very important, and myguess is that as you or your
agents come in, you're coming inas a part, not as some agency
that is superior, and we're incharge that.
You know that jurisdictionalvanity is really unnecessary.
Fair statement.
Jim Ferguson (07:13):
Yeah, and, quite frankly, it's really not the one
or the other, it's thecombination.
That is the magic right.
We have the information fromthe state and locals, which is
literally what's going on on thestreet, real time, and then you
bring in the resources of thefederal government to focus and
devote resources to one soleproblem, and running that to
ground really provides thatrobust task force environment
(07:37):
that really roots out theproblem and deals with it in an
effective way.
Steve Morreale (07:41):
Yeah, you dig deeper, right, and you so talk
about the office You're now incharge of the Boston office.
Dea called it the New EnglandField Division.
You are the Boston FieldDivision, but you have all of
New England.
How does that play out?
By the way, we're talking toJim Ferguson, the special agent
in charge of ATF in Boston, andtalk about the different
components of ATF.
I mean, certainly there areagents, but you have other
(08:02):
elements.
Help people understand that.
Jim Ferguson (08:04):
Yeah, so essentially what ATF is
comprised, as is a complianceside, which is essentially what
does the regulatory authorityfor both federal firearms
licensees and fire federalexplosives licensees, and so
that entity they're working withthe industry to ensure
compliance in the industry.
And then we have our lawenforcement side, which deals in
(08:27):
the law enforcement world.
Steve Morreale (08:28):
And at one point in time.
Well, first of all, there'sbeen a change in the agency.
You were with Treasury, you gotbrought to justice, you're with
justice now and over time, youstarted to focus on fires,
obviously, and explosives.
Jim Ferguson (08:42):
Talk about that element fires, obviously, and
explosives Talk about thatelement Our offices, because of
our history and where we wereborn, from the explosives and
arson.
We're the only federal agencythat actually has arson
jurisdiction.
And again, what ATF is focusedon is violent crime.
Those are really the bigbaskets.
When you look at violent crime,look at firearms, explosives
(09:03):
and arsons, those are reallysort of the big buckets that we
have federal authority on.
That also impact the public ina significant way.
Steve Morreale (09:12):
Without giving away the ranch.
What's the size of your offices?
You have offices in the sixstates.
Some are smaller than othersresident agencies.
Try to help people understandhow ATF is comprised.
Not so much the assets are, butI know having worked at DEA and
HHS.
Some offices we had two, someoffices we had 10, some offices
(09:34):
we had 100.
How does it work out in?
Jim Ferguson (09:35):
your world.
So, as far as our compositionand all of this is online, so
it's pretty well public.
We've got five criminal officeshere in Massachusetts, two
criminal offices in Connecticutand then one criminal group for
every other state in New England, comprised of Rhode Island,
Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine.
The footprint for ourcompliance size is much smaller
(09:57):
than that.
We only have three groups totaland those three groups exist in
two in Massachusetts and one inConnecticut, and those cover
all of New England.
And so, if you look at it froma perspective of number of
employees to ensure compliance,you're looking at thousands of
FFLs and FELs throughout the NewEngland region and we've got
(10:21):
roughly 25 complianceindividuals that work with that?
Steve Morreale (10:25):
Yeah, not very many.
And in terms of agents, you'vegot different groups.
Are there specialties?
Jim Ferguson (10:29):
We do have specialties, the way we've
combined our groups now.
We no longer used to be back inthe day we'd have a bomb and
arson squad that only focused onbomb and arsons.
But as things started to changein the environment for what we
covered and really some of theblurred lines with explosives
(10:50):
and firearms and the reason Ibring that up is oftentimes our
canines our explosive caninesare there for the detection of
explosives, but they're alsocapable of identifying the
explosives that are used infirearms, and so they're used,
and so those resources were nolonger solely for the bomb and
arson squad.
(11:10):
So we've got a variety in NewEngland of both certified
explosive specialists, bombtechs, as well as certified
firearms investigators.
Steve Morreale (11:20):
That's crazy.
So one of the things you know,the podcast focuses on
innovation leadership.
You certainly have hadexperience working for people
who approach the job in adifferent way.
I think there's generationaldifferences in leaders, and you
came in and you watched as asupervisor and that is an ASAC,
I suppose, and now as thespecial agent in charge.
(11:40):
How many are there in thecountry SACs?
We have 25.
So it's a very small number of25.
And let's talk about theFerguson approach.
I'm not talking about the city,by the way, yes, but the
Ferguson approach to runningmeetings and to engaging others
in the conversation around thetable.
What do you do now?
(12:01):
That helps to draw people inand seek new ideas and seek to
understand how do your meetingsgo.
Jim Ferguson (12:08):
So I think one of the most important things you
can do in a meeting is listenright.
Ideally, whatever I do is notnecessarily the value add that
everyone sees for ATF.
It's what my agents andindustry operations
investigators do.
That work on the ground isreally where ATF.
It's what my agents andindustry operations
investigators do.
That work on the ground isreally where ATF gets its
(12:28):
reputation, and so that's thebackbone of what this agency is
and our value add to not onlyour community as a whole, but
certainly our law enforcementcommunity.
So it's very important for me tolisten and understand where our
problems are and where are,quite frankly, also not only our
problems but also where ourstrengths and, quite frankly,
(12:50):
are the benefits that we bring,so that I can do a better job at
highlighting and bringingawareness to the good things
that all the groups do andessentially you prevent one.
You know that's something thatyou can't necessarily tabulate,
but are really impactful whenyou look at the community and
public safety as a whole.
(13:11):
So I need to have my ear to theground.
So it's very important for methat I am a good listener, but I
also need to have vision anddirection for where I so that
people have an understanding ofwhat it is that I believe is
success and, ultimately, where Ithink our resources are best
suited.
But again, part of that is adialogue to come in and just
(13:31):
simply give the hard line.
This is what we're going to do.
There's a time and place forthat.
But as far as in general, it'svery important and I think more
important to listen so you cantruly understand what's
impacting your agency.
Steve Morreale (13:43):
I think, as leaders too, we have to pay
attention no different than theagency did for you when you had
an issue with your dad that theylistened and they didn't have
to.
They say, well, fly back andforth when you have to, but we
need you here, and I supposethat treatment of you by your
predecessor bosses must play arole when you're talking to
people who are facing somedifficulty.
Is that a fair statement?
Jim Ferguson (14:04):
Without a doubt.
I mean empathy is a tremendoustool and, ultimately, having an
appreciation for what that means, having been gone for 13 years.
When my dad got sick, I saw himtwice a year and so my kids saw
him twice a year, and so thatwas really important for me to
spend the end of his life withhim and to be able to have my
(14:25):
kids to have that opportunity,and that's absolutely something
that I want to pay forward.
If I can help anyone to get tothat situation, because it's
part of the job.
It's what we've all done.
We get up, we leave, we startour post of duties elsewhere,
but people need to recognizethat families are the backbone
of everything that we do.
The job is just part of it.
Steve Morreale (14:44):
Need to recognize that families are the
backbone of everything that wedo.
The job's just part of it.
Yeah, I like to hear that.
I'm thinking for a moment.
One mass hole talking toanother.
If most people won't understand, that's what we're called
sometimes, Not an asshole, but amass hole?
Yes, yes, and I mean that inthe nicest sense, but
nonetheless, when you were inChicago, were you dragged into
that crazy frenzied cityfocusing on their professional
(15:06):
teams, or did you remain aBostonian?
Oh, no, no, I always remained aBostonian.
Jim Ferguson (15:11):
Yeah, and I.
Any chance that I got, Ipromoted all the sports teams
here, and you know, especiallywith Chicago because they have
that rivalry we do.
1986 Super Bowl, which you knowto date myself a little bit,
was one of the first teammeetings that we had at one of
the task force officerssergeant's house.
And we're in there and he says,hey, push play on the VCR.
(15:33):
That's how long ago it was.
And sure enough in his VCR wasthe 1986 Super Bowl.
Steve Morreale (15:38):
Yeah, let's, let's start this conversation
right.
Jim Ferguson (15:41):
Yeah, I'm well aware how this game ended.
Steve Morreale (15:43):
Yeah, we don't have to revisit it.
I like it.
I like it.
Chicago is a great city.
Let's talk about you and yourown development.
Do you feel that theorganization got you ready for
the next step?
You know you want to become agroup supervisor.
You go to some training, youbecome an ASAC.
Maybe you go to some training,become a SAC and you're now in a
very small group of people 25in the entire country.
(16:05):
How did you find your way tofind your leadership style and
approach?
Jim Ferguson (16:09):
Honest, I would have to say that I just fell
into it.
You know, again, I never gotinto this job to do this job.
I came into ATF to be an agent,to do, you know, investigations
, not to be a boss.
And so, quite frankly, if youwere to ask the 25 years ago
version of myself, I would havetold you you were out of your
(16:30):
mind.
If you would tell me that I was, I'd be here, because this is
not what my career aspirationswere.
I was very, very happy being anagent very much like the
casework, probably the best timein my professional career.
But the opportunities came downthe pike.
First one was to promote to getback home.
Being promoted in Chicago gaveme a better shot at being able
(16:50):
to transfer back to Boston.
And then there's a very definedcareer path in the government
right.
So there's agent first linesupervisor, ASAC, and then
choice of headquarters, timewhere you wanted to do that.
And then, once you're halfwaydown that road, it's better to
continue down that road so thatyou can that more beneficial for
(17:11):
you in retirement.
Steve Morreale (17:12):
Let's talk about developing others.
How important is mentoring,coaching and developing others?
I think it's the most important.
Jim Ferguson (17:19):
I mean, if I'm doing a good job, the people
that are sitting at the ASACs orthe group supervisors, those
should be the people that takemy place.
How?
Steve Morreale (17:27):
do you identify people like that?
What are you watching?
Is there something that you, asa leader, see in others, where
you begin to coach them anddevelop them and kind of push
them along, provide someopportunities for them to be
tested and opportunities fortraining and such?
Jim Ferguson (17:43):
Again, one of the most important things I think
about being a leader is knowingyour organization, and so one of
the things that I have done ona routine basis is, when you see
those people, that number onehave the talent to do it and an
interest, is to provide theopportunities that really round
them out and allow them tounderstand the agency as a whole
(18:04):
and getting a chance to see howthe different directorates
interact, getting to see andimmerse themselves in
headquarters details that willgive them that line of sight to
see the agency and, quitefrankly, our mission in a
different way and how some ofthe mundane things that the
division or headquarters asksthem to do they get to see.
(18:26):
On the other side of that, why,where does that information go
and why is it important and whois it important to?
And so that to me, isdefinitely part of the grooming
process is getting them tounderstand more about the agency
so they're better suited tomake decisions down the road so
you touched on something.
Steve Morreale (18:45):
I think that's important and there's so many
times, I suppose, that you'vebeen told we want to put you
here, or we want to put you here, want to put you here, and you
go kicking and screaming becauseyou're very comfortable where
you are and in some cases it'sabout helping you become
comfortable with beinguncomfortable.
That's sort of.
It's almost that.
To me it's the test, it's thelitmus test of whether or not
(19:07):
people can function beyond theold Peter Prince or beyond where
they are comfortable.
Yeah, so talk about that alittle bit.
I see a little smirk on yourface.
You know what I'm talking about.
Jim Ferguson (19:15):
I think that that fits perfectly for my career.
I got back to Boston and here Iwas, back home and thought that
this was where I was going tostay, and a little less than two
years after my dad passed I gotput on the voluntold list,
which was a list to go toheadquarters for you know,
essentially permanentreassignments for physicians and
(19:36):
so talked to some people I knewthat were serving time in
headquarters and said is thisreal?
Am I going to get drafted to go?
And they said yeah, they'repulling from that list.
And so at that point in time Irealized that that was a true
possibility for me, and so Ilooked at what I wanted to do
and where I thought my skill setwas best suited.
So I took a position in ourfirearms operations division,
(19:58):
which probably, as far as myprofessional career and getting
out of my comfort zone andreally transitioning the way I
think about things, was probablyone of the most beneficial to
me.
Steve Morreale (20:09):
So when you have those conversations with people
in a lot of ways, I just spentsome time at a command college,
we just finished up down atLiberty University and we talk
about these things, aboutsomebody who stays in patrol I'm
talking about local or somebodygoes to canine or somebody goes
into narcotics task force orsuch that ultimately it's not
permanent, that we need to makeroom for other people to get
(20:31):
that same experience, thatexperience.
But when that happens and theboss calls you in, sometimes
it's punitive, but most of thetime it's because I want to
round you out.
I want you to know more aboutthe organization is exactly what
you said.
What kinds of conversations doyou have to try to make people
understand exactly what you said, the why?
Jim Ferguson (20:48):
Yeah, I think one of the most important aspects
of that is truly understandingthat there are families behind
these people and, thoughalthough it may be beneficial
from their career, approachingit with the individuals in
ensuring that their family willhave what it needs to thrive.
I think is an important part ofthat conversation, because all
(21:11):
too often we spend more time atwork sometimes than we spend
with our families, which createssome divides.
And ultimately, if you go intoa conversation, understanding
that that's what people arethinking is how is this going to
impact my family?
Coming at it from thatperspective, like hey, I know
that you've got a son ordaughter that are going to be
(21:32):
going into high school.
This is a good time for them toget in, and here's why.
And having those conversationswhere you are at least
recognizing that this impactssomebody beyond the individual
getting transferred.
Steve Morreale (21:43):
You're beginning to talk about wellness and
work-life balance, which issomething that is not easy for
federal agents or even policeofficers to deal with.
I remember this, Jim and I wasdoing a training and there
happened to be a provinceofficer, a sergeant, and we were
talking about wellness and whatthis does to our lives and
families, because we becomedevoted to this and sometimes
(22:05):
myopic and just getting the casedone and chasing that SOB that
he said in the class.
You know, Steve, what I'mhearing you say and what I've
just realized is this that Ispend so much time on the job,
give so much time to the job,that when I get home, the best I
give my family is crumbs.
And that was pretty damning andit was kind of a punch in the
(22:26):
face because I think I've beenguilty of it, Maybe you've been
guilty of it in the past, andhow do we overcome that?
So just having thatconversation and you, Jim,
having that perspective thatfamily is important, is
important.
How important and essential isit for ATF?
We're talking to Jim Fergusonfrom the Boston Office of
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearmsabout wellness and resilience
(22:50):
and understanding our peopleyour people, our colleagues, see
stuff they can never unsee.
How do you deal with it as anagency?
Jim Ferguson (22:57):
Thankfully, the agency has a pretty good peer
support program, which I'm alsoa part of.
You know it's a good resource,but I don't think there's
anybody that's more as the SAChere.
I have the opportunity tointeract with everyone, but I
don't necessarily spend the timewith individuals that I know
when they're off and they mayact slightly different when they
(23:20):
speak to me anyway, and so itreally is incumbent upon the
team to keep the team togetherand make sure everybody stays
health.
For me, I really want to stressthat we need to look out for
each other because we know whatnorms are.
If you spend every day the typeof time that we spend together,
the type of time that we needto look out for each other
because we know what norms are.
If you spend every day the typeof time that we spend together,
the type of time that we spendin cars together, you know,
(23:42):
regardless of what the tasks are, you know we spend an ordinate
amount of time very, very closewith each other and you get to
know somebody.
You get to know somebody'stells if they're having a hard
time or if they're focused onthe wrong thing or, worse yet,
they're withdrawing, and so it'sreally for me.
I try to stress the team likewe've got to take care of each
other and anything that I can doto support that, whether that
(24:05):
be bringing in the peer supportteam or providing the counseling
numbers that we've gotavailable.
If somebody has a problem.
You know those are the firststeps, but it really is.
The workload really becomesunder the teams that you work
with because they're going tosee it first.
Steve Morreale (24:22):
I'm thinking about your leadership style.
If you think back to the wayyou began, you know we get
thrown into these positions andone day you're an agent, the
next day you're a groupsupervisor and you're not going
to get training necessarilyright away and you're now
responsible not only foryourself, but for other people.
Someone's driving theexpectations right.
This is what we need.
We need this.
Where's your case?
Where's your arrests?
(24:42):
Where's the search warrant?
Whatever, whatever it might be,and over time, I think we make
our mistakes.
We're fallible.
The big question I have for youdo you lead today the same way
as you did 15 or 20 years ago?
Jim Ferguson (24:57):
No.
Steve Morreale (24:57):
Tell me what has changed and how you grow and
how you modify and what causesthese things to change your
approach.
Jim Ferguson (25:05):
You know, I think to your point there comes a
time where you are a line agentand then the next day you're a
supervisor and you didn'treceive any additional training
and you now have to be the boss.
And you have to be the bosswithout having any sort of
formalized experience, butbearing all the brunt of all the
(25:25):
success or failures of yourgroup.
And I always say that as aspecial agent, you have your
problems.
As a group supervisor, you haveeveryone's problems in the group
, and that is part of it ishaving that understanding that
just because I would deal withsomething one way doesn't mean
that the agent that I'm dealingwith would want to do it the
(25:46):
same way.
And so I look back on that and Ithink, because of the way that
that transition happens, there'sinsecurity.
There has to be right.
I mean you come into this andnow, all of a sudden, the very
next day, you're the boss andyou have to make the call and
you have to be that bridgebetween the division and the
working agents.
(26:06):
And so I think that withmaturity and experience, you
have the ability to not onlyrecognize problems before they
happen, but you also have agreater comfort in dealing with
those problems because you'vebeen there before and, even if
you had the worst supervisor inthe world, you learn something
from them, even if it was, uh,not to do that.
(26:27):
So experience is one of thosethings that you just can't
replace, because it gives peoplethe confidence to handle things
that ordinarily they may feelpressure one way or the other.
Steve Morreale (26:37):
So somebody gets promoted in your division by
the way, talking to Jim Ferguson, he is the special agent in
charge of ATF in Boston, theBoston field division Somebody
gets promoted, obviously.
You've had a hand in that andis a process for that.
And they're new, let's say it'sa new group supervisor.
Do you get a chance to talkwith them or do you leave that
to the ASAC?
Jim Ferguson (26:54):
No, I try to do.
I do it with, actually, eventhe new agents that we get.
I think it's really importantto provide some really basic
information that, as you know,when you get into this job, your
first couple of weeks oforientation you're trying to
figure out what your thriftsavings plan is, what your
insurance plan is, and then, ifyou relocated here, how do you
(27:15):
even get to the office, right?
So there's a lot of that stuffthat what do you do first?
You know, over the years yousee a lot of different sort of
recommendations for what peopleneed to do when they're new, and
so I have a sheet.
It's literally a sheet, and ifyou want to be successful, these
are some of the things that youshould do.
It's literally a sheet, and ifyou want to be successful, these
are some of the things that youshould do.
(27:36):
Participate in a trial,especially if it's not yours,
because there's no better way toview a case than watching it
being picked apart on the standand understanding what we're
doing in the field and why we'redoing it the way we're doing it
, because it matters when you'reon court and you're having to
take the stand and representyour case fact.
So I really think that thatdialogue is important, not only
for new supervisors but foranybody coming into a position,
(27:59):
so that you give them at least aroadmap for success and if they
didn't know what to do, maybeit gives them one or two tips
that helps them along the way.
Steve Morreale (28:08):
So you've got a check sheet.
So now, if somebody comes inand be a supervisor or even your
ASAC Again, I'm aiming towardstrying to understand how you set
expectations.
Jim Ferguson (28:17):
Yeah.
So expectations, you know, andit depends if it's an ASAC,
that's a different set ofexpectations for then first line
supervisors.
And so, looking and workingwith supervisors and having held
that position, I recognize whatthat position is.
Right, You're the gatekeeperbetween the agents and the work
that they do and the divisionand the information sort of
(28:38):
connectivity that they need tohave and making sure that they
understand that management is alot of communication and making
sure that you're not onlycommunicating up but
communicating down and settingexpectations for their people.
Being transparent Nobody wantsthe rules to change and so if
you have changes, make sure thatthey understand what those
(28:59):
changes are, how they're goingto impact them and how you're
going to get through it together.
Steve Morreale (29:04):
So I'm curious to know when you're sitting
around the table with yourcommand staff?
We've already talked about youbeing willing to listen, but do
you set an agenda?
Do you look for things thathave been done differently so
that you can learn from eachother?
Do you look at mistakes thathappen?
Try to learn from those, to usethose as teachable moments?
Jim Ferguson (29:24):
As I said, I think communication is vital,
and not only communication to me, but also an understanding of
what's going on in the division.
I pulled staff meetings on aregular basis that everybody
comes in there, everybody talksabout what the priorities for
the weeks are, what we see aspotential issues coming down the
pike, everything fromoperational to funding, and this
(29:46):
way we're telegraphing thatinformation out there so that
everybody in the command staffknows what that is and can
filter that information as theysee fit to the teams that it
impacts.
Steve Morreale (29:57):
Your agents sometimes are placed on detail.
How do you handle that?
Because everything else comesto a halt If there's a case and
there's a case agent, they'redoing something else Washington
or wherever how do you?
Jim Ferguson (30:06):
handle that.
When you're talking about thetypes of investigations that
we're doing, they just can'ttake a break.
So if we've got any type ofextended leave for one reason or
another you mentioned details,which certainly happens those
are typically anywhere between90 and 120 days at a whack.
You were looking at thedownside to that.
If you were to leave cases openfor 90 or 120 days and let's
(30:29):
say you were looking at anillegal gun trafficker, how many
guns got on the street in 90 or120 days?
It's just not feasible for usto simply just walk away from
cases.
So there has to be a transition.
Those cases that are ongoingand active and that we have
known criminal violationshappening that are impacting
public safety, those take thepriority and those will get
(30:50):
reassigned as needed.
And if the case agent leaves,comes back and case is still
ongoing, it's their case again.
But we don't have the luxury ofjust sitting there waiting for
him or her to come back.
Steve Morreale (31:01):
That's a delicate balance that you have
to play because headquarters isleaning on you for some people,
because everybody's going toshare the pain right about going
to this detail or anotherdetail while keeping the case
chugging along, which isimportant.
I mean, I understand, in drugcases sometimes we would have a
CR and we wouldn't be able tohave any buy money.
On one day we're going to buy$30,000 worth of drugs and the
(31:23):
next day you say you can't.
It's kind of a signal, don'tyou think?
I know you face that too, sospeak to that, because I don't
think most people understandthat.
Jim Ferguson (31:30):
Yeah, I mean, finances can always be
challenging and ultimately, forguns, we're not typically
looking to spend $10,000,$20,000 on any one gift buy, but
on average we spend anywherebetween $30,000 to $50,000 a
month on agent cashier andthat's something that is
(31:51):
critical for us.
If we're going to continue toidentify criminal activity, we
have to be able to have themoney available to pay
informants to utilize forundercover operations.
That's vital for sure.
Steve Morreale (32:03):
So you tap somebody on the shoulder and you
say to them I think it might betime for you to consider a new
position, in other words to putin for a position.
The rotation in a headquartersis never easy, but again it
helps to round you out.
But as you're having thatconversation with somebody, what
kinds of guidance do you givethem?
What kinds of coaching do yougive them about considering
stepping into the next spot?
Jim Ferguson (32:24):
I think part of the challenge is and I'm sure
this is the same way in DEA,with ATF when you come on the
job, headquarters is almost likethe land of the abyss, right?
Nobody wants to go there andultimately, if you have been
tapped on the shoulder to go,that could be a bad thing.
It could be a good thing.
It's kind of dispelling therumors, quite frankly.
(32:45):
That will allow us to getpeople to understand how the
cases come together, why we dothings in the field.
That feeds the beast atheadquarters and then really
giving people the understandingof hey look, your authority
right now pertains to whathappens here in the New England
Field Division.
(33:05):
However, in headquarters you'retouching things nationwide or
international sometimes, and sohaving them understand the
opportunity that's there forthem to broaden their horizons,
to get that experience, allowsthem to swallow the pill,
sometimes a little bit easier.
Steve Morreale (33:23):
Well, I think when you go to headquarters too,
it does open your eyes.
You might go kicking andshoving, but it opens your eyes
to a much broader view.
What are you most proud of withATF and what it's accomplished,
and even what's beingaccomplished in the Boston as
far as the Boston Field Division, it's the people.
Jim Ferguson (33:38):
Again, as I said earlier, it's the people that do
the work on the ground.
That really is the benefit ofwhat ATF is, and I'm really
proud of the people here in theBoston Field Division that do
such tremendous work that reallybenefit the public here.
And, quite frankly, the otherthing that I'm most proud of is
the relationships, and those gohand in hand.
(33:59):
You alluded to it earlier.
We are ATF's unofficial slopeand is no better partner, and so
we've got some phenomenalrelationships with our state and
local partners that really Icouldn't be any more proud of,
with our state and localpartners that really I couldn't
be any more proud of.
I mean, whether we needsomething or they need something
, it's reciprocal and theagencies are there to support
one another.
Steve Morreale (34:18):
Can you talk about something that happened
recently?
I'm talking about a case thatmost people I think to myself,
having been an agent myself, andI know you too, that it's not
easy.
I'm not suggesting that clearly.
We see what's going on withlocal law enforcement.
There were several killingslast week, which is just
horrible to see Most of themwith guns, one with a knife.
But this is dangerous work.
(34:38):
It's sexy work at times andit's boring work at times.
Surveillance sucks right andworking undercover is
exhilarating, but it can beboring and it can be also
dangerous.
Now, now talk about that aspectof the job and the way you see
it through your eyes as a boss.
Jim Ferguson (34:56):
You know, as far as some of the things that I
think ATF brings to the table,our ballistics program has come
literally galaxies from where itwas.
Nibin is a program that linksballistics together so that you
understand related crime scenesand you can identify that what
gun was responsible for whatcrimes.
And you know that was a processthat if you were to ask this
(35:18):
question 10 years ago, thatinformation would take a year
and a half, two years to getback.
And, as you well know, they'vegot TV shows now called the
First 48.
The reason is the first 48hours of a homicide or a
shooting are vital, so to getinformation years later the
value of that information issignificantly tarnished, maybe
(35:41):
less valuable because othermeans aren't there, whether it
be phone records, geolocationinformation, things like this.
And so now our program, as longas it gets to the system, the
results will be provided within24 to 48 hours, which is truly
vital to not only the linedetectives that are working
those cases but even our agentswhen they're looking.
(36:02):
We buy a gun that will officesomebody and we determine we're
in the middle of a firearmstrafficking investigation.
And now we run that gun anddetermine that it was used in a
shooting two days before.
Again, that changes the scopeof the investigation for us and
it really puts a bigger targeton that individual, because it's
not just the possession or saleof a gun now.
Now we know that it's linked toviolent gun crime.
(36:23):
So I'm really happy about wherewe are now in the NIBIN world
and the ballistics and even ourtracing program.
Again, when I started this job,we would literally fill out a
form, fax it in and the resultswere mailed to us.
That's how we got those results, and so technology changing has
provided vital criminalintelligence to us in a much
(36:46):
quicker way.
That is more relevant andnecessary for filing crime
investigations.
Steve Morreale (36:51):
Well, speaking of technology, talking to Jim as
we wind down from ATF in Boston, technology is certainly
changing quite rapidly.
How is it impeding someinvestigations, the old
encryption stuff and the thingsthat we're all trying to kind of
chase behind as we realizewhat's going signal and all of
those kinds of things.
Jim Ferguson (37:10):
As you well know, law enforcement can't address a
problem until we know there's aproblem, and so some of the
great technology that our kidsuse become hurdles in
investigations.
Years ago Title IIIinvestigations if somebody was
on a phone, they conducted theirbusiness on the phone.
You went up on the phones andyou got it.
It's a different era now, andnow it's a much different.
(37:31):
You need different equipment tobe able to monitor things.
Some things become encryptedand more difficult to monitor
real time, and so all of thatputs law enforcement behind the
eight ball when it comes toreally getting into the heart of
organizations, which is theircommunication.
Steve Morreale (37:48):
Well, you know, I went to a DEA event, an Afton
event, a couple of months agoand I was listening to agents
that are far younger than youand I, and you're listening to
these guys and they're talkingabout technology and what
they're trying to do and howthey're approaching it.
I'm not sure that we could dothe job today, because we're not
digital natives like theseyoung bucks are.
Jim Ferguson (38:08):
No, I mean again, when you and I came on, wiring
up and informant was an entirelydifferent process than it is
now.
And this generation, I mean,they're born with phones in
their hands.
I mean, I remember my firstphone when I got it, when I got
on this job, we were assignedpagers, so it was different
times, but you know, there'sgood and bad in it all.
(38:29):
I think one of the thingsthat's great is their ability to
look at technology.
One of the things that I findand maybe this is anecdotal for
me, but you know, the art of acommunication or interviewing is
changing because people deal somuch on their phones and
interact without necessarilyactually using their voice and
sometimes AI is.
Steve Morreale (38:49):
I mean, think about what AI is going to do to
some people and AI voices andvoice matching, and it's going
to make it be much moredifficult.
We're winding down as we get tothe end.
Jim, what kind of hope do youhave for agents coming on?
Are you having recruitingissues?
Is there still an interest inthe feds?
Are we seeing the same sort ofproblems in the federal agencies
(39:12):
that we're seeing at the locallevel?
Jim Ferguson (39:14):
Yes, Hiring and retention are tremendously
difficult right now, going back20 plus years.
If the agency gave a test,ultimately the test would fill
up in hours or a day, and nowwe're leaving that vacancy open
for two weeks and not evenfilling the people necessarily.
(39:34):
To really get a strongapplicant pool, they say it's
around 10%, so if a thousandpeople apply, really we only get
a hundred people that make itthrough, and then they have to
take the job, so they have towant to go where the agency has
needs, and so all of thosethings have been tremendously
difficult.
And then the overall,unfortunately, the negative
(39:56):
perception of law enforcementhas certainly impacted that,
even at the federal level.
Steve Morreale (40:01):
I'm disappointed to hear that, but I'm certainly
not surprised.
So, as you come to the end,what message would you give to
people who might be on the fenceabout potentially considering a
job in the feds?
Given that you are probablygoing to have to move, that you
are going to be put in somesituations that are
uncomfortable sometimes, in thehopes of getting home at some
(40:23):
point in your career, whatadvice would you give?
Is it a noble profession still,especially at ATF?
Jim Ferguson (40:28):
It is.
And again, I've had and I'meligible for retirement at this
point and have the luxury ofbeing able to look back, and at
the time that I was coming on, Ididn't necessarily
differentiate between one agencyor another.
Right, our job series as 1811sare the same in DEA as it is ATF
as it is an FBI.
So when I was applying for jobs, I applied for all of those
(40:52):
jobs and went through all ofthose processes and, as you said
, it is a lengthy process.
I think it took me just underthree years from the time that I
applied until the time that Icame on.
It's a long wait for a job.
Huh, it's a long wait for a job, and what I would tell you is
it is certainly worthwhile.
On the other end and I couldnot be any more happy that now,
knowing all the agencies, like Idid, I think I fit in the right
(41:15):
place.
I think ATF was a tremendousfit for me.
I think that the work that wedo is in line with my instance,
so it was a great fit.
But you have to persevere andyou have to really want it and
you have to be willing to getout of your comfort zone, as you
previously meant, because,ultimately and this is the
advice that I got from at thetime a customs agent who was at
(41:36):
the end of his career.
He said if you really want todo this, stay in the federal
government, because there's abenefit for that for you,
because your leave and yourretirement will compound, but,
more importantly, you won't haveto leave.
You start your career at BostonPolice Department or some other
police department.
By the time the feds call youmay have several years of
seniority with that departmentand you may not want to leave.
(41:59):
And so that was great advicefor me, because it allowed me to
get into the federal governmentand kind of cut my teeth and,
quite frankly, give meopportunities to apply for other
jobs that otherwise I wouldn'tbe able to apply for.
Steve Morreale (42:10):
Yeah, look at you, jim Ferguson, the Special
Agent in Charge.
Who'd have thunk that?
Not me.
I'd say that right now.
Well, you're one lucky guy andthey're, I think, lucky to have
you.
Hopefully you're paying forwardto try to do the same thing
that somebody told you how totake this job, how to approach
this job and how to benefit fromit, both for the government,
the country and for you and yourfamily, no, without a doubt.
(42:32):
Well, thank you, jim.
I very much appreciate it.
We've been talking to JimFerguson.
He is now the special agent incharge of the Boston Field
Division for the Bureau ofAlcohol, tobacco, firearms and
Explosives, although ATF is thename that's used the most.
I appreciate your time, jim.
One last word If you had achoice to talk to anybody in the
(42:53):
business that you've not beenable to talk to to gather some
advice, who would you want tochat?
Steve Morreale, ah, you'redoing that already, buddy.
Jim Ferguson (42:59):
Okay, you got one .
No, I don't.
That's a great question.
You know, ultimately, thepeople that I admire the most
are the people you know.
When you think of lawenforcement, you know there's
one name that always surfaced tothe top Bill Bratton is one of
those guys who's just anincredible visionary and has
proven success, you know, in amultitude of different agencies
and multitude of sizes, and soI'd love to get the opportunity
(43:20):
to meet with people like that.
But you know, I'm fortunateenough in my position that I get
to meet and work with a lot ofgreat people.
I mean, michael Cox is thecommissioner here in Boston, and
he's not only an outstandingleader but an outstanding
individual, and so it really isa privilege to be able to get to
work.
Steve Morreale (43:37):
That's great.
Well, thank you so much foryour time.
I wish you the best in yourcareer and wherever it brings
you later, and my best to yourfamily.
So, jim, thank you very muchfor being here.
Thanks very much, steve.
Appreciate it, no problem.
Well, that's it.
Another episode is in the books.
We're learning that people arelistening to this podcast from
86 countries and more than 3,000cities and towns, which just
boggles my mind.
(43:57):
So, keep listening.
Thanks for your feedback, andif you have somebody I should be
talking to reach out to me.
Thanks very much.
Have a good day.
Intro-Outro (44:06):
Thanks for listening to The CopDoc Podcast
with Dr Steve Morreale.
Steve is a retired lawenforcement practitioner and
manager, turned academic andscholar from Worcester State
University.
Please tune into The Cop DocPodcast for regular episodes of
interviews with thought leadersin policing.
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