August 6, 2025 • 28 mins
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Season 2 Episode 9: Beyond Court Battles: How Collaborative Divorce Transforms Family Transitions
Divorce doesn't have to mean scorched earth and broken families. What if there was a way to end your marriage with dignity, privacy, and mutual respect—while saving time and money?
Rachel Borentrager, divorce attorney and pioneering advocate for collaborative divorce, returns to the Coupled Podcast to introduce listeners to this revolutionary alternative to traditional divorce proceedings. She explains how collaborative divorce brings together a specialized team—including collaboratively-trained attorneys, a neutral mental health facilitator, and a neutral financial expert—who work together to create solutions that honor everyone's interests rather than fighting over rigid positions.
The benefits are striking. While traditional litigation often drags on for years, costs upwards of $100,000 per spouse, and destroys co-parenting relationships, collaborative divorce typically resolves in months, costs significantly less, and preserves family connections. Rachel shares remarkable success stories, including divorced couples who now share children's items between homes and even go trick-or-treating together with new spouses—showing just how transformative this approach can be.
The process remains entirely outside the courtroom, with all financial disclosures and agreements kept private rather than becoming public record. This confidentiality protects personal information while allowing for creative solutions that courts simply cannot order, like step-up parenting plans that evolve as children age or flexible financial arrangements that address everyone's core concerns.
Whether you're contemplating divorce or know someone who is, this eye-opening conversation reveals an option most people never hear about until they're already deep in the traditional system. Learn why Rachel and a growing community of legal professionals are championing collaborative divorce as a better way forward for families in transition.
Dr. Jenna and Dr. Nari are the Licensed Marriage and Family Therapists behind the Coupled Podcast. They both have private practices where they work with individuals, couples, and families in Florida. The two are ready to shake up the world of couples therapy and want to extend resources beyond the couples they see in their private practices.
If you like this episode and want to know more about taking the next step to improve your communication, connection, and intimacy, head over to our websites to learn more about our Staying Coupled and Getting Coupled courses. These online courses give you the flexibility to improve your relationship from the comfort and convenience of your home. The Staying Coupled course is for couples who want to do the work to connect, communicate, and have the healthiest relationship possible. The Getting Coupled course is for premarital couples wanting to learn the essentials for a successful marriage. Topics in both courses include the main issues couples face:
- Communication
- Family Boundaries
- Family Finances
- Sex
- Family Planning
- Division of Labor
- Couple Activities
For more information, visit drjennascott.com/courses or drnarijeter.com/courses
Disclaimer: This podcast is not a substitute for therapy. If you’re struggling, we encourage you to seek support from a licensed therapist in your state. Our relationship suggestions and content may not be applicable or advised for relationships with intimate partner violence (IPV). If you need resources, contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline 800-799-7233.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, welcome to the Coupled Podcast.
It's just Nari today, but Ihave the joy of having Rachel
Borentrager, divorce attorney,back on for another episode.
We're going to talk about atotally different topic this
time, and Rachel is a localpioneer on what is called the
collaborative divorce process.
(00:20):
I learned about it a coupleyears ago through Rachel.
Rachel and I'm like this isgenius.
People need to know about itand I think a lot of people
don't, because people aren't outthere just researching how do
you get a divorce until theyactually need one.
So, Rachel, I'm going to haveyou explain.
Like what is this thing calledcollaborative divorce?
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Yeah, for me, I've always kind of struggled to
define it.
I'll be honest.
Um, it is.
It's basically it's a differentmethod of divorcing where you
don't go to court Okay, it'sprivate, it's confidential.
You, the spouses, use neutralexperts and they work together
as a team respectfully toresolve all the issues and never
(01:03):
go to court.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
That sounds pretty amazing, yeah, okay, and so let
me ask you can anyone get acollaborative divorce?
Is this option available toeveryone, or is there?
Are there certain situationswhere collaborative divorce is a
better option than others?
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Well, definitely there are certain situations
where it's better than others,but collaborative divorce has
been around for decades.
In Florida, it probably startedtaking off around like 2010.
It became an actual law bystatute in 2016.
So everybody can get thecollaborative divorce if they
want it.
Um, so everybody can get thecollaborative divorce if they
(01:48):
want it.
I have found, you know, if you,if one spouse is really
vindictive or spiteful and theycan't be fair and they can't
look out for their soon to be exspouse's best interests, then
no, it's probably not going towork.
Otherwise, I even used to youknow, if you'd asked me 10 years
ago like domestic violencecases, dependency cases, those
(02:11):
kinds of things like could theystill go through collaborative,
and I would have said no, butnow I would say yes, as long as
you have a strong enough team,particularly a strong enough
mental health facilitator, thenI think you could.
I actually think that thatwould be better for in a
situation where there's domesticviolence, better at protecting
the victim spouse than the legalsystem.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Right, so that brings up a really good point.
So typically in a verytraditional divorce, your team
is just like your attorneys andyour attorneys, employees,
paralegals, things like that butthere is an actual team that
each person has in thecollaborative divorce process.
Who's on the team?
(02:53):
Yeah, so you have to have.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Everybody has a lawyer, Each spouse has a lawyer
.
Those lawyers have to becollaboratively trained and
that's very important because asa lawyer, it's a huge mind
shift.
Normally, when I representsomebody, you know I'm there,
I'm a very strong advocate.
You know you've, you know me.
I'm kind of a pushy individual,I love to talk, I'm just, I'm a
(03:16):
strong attorney.
In the collaborative settingit's a mind shift.
My goal is settling the caseand it's my client's best
interest.
I have to remove thatposition-based strategy that
I've always taken as a litigator.
So that collaborative trainedlawyer is important.
(03:36):
Then you also bring in a mentalhealth professional.
This person is the facilitator.
They're going to lead all ofour team meetings.
They keep all the emotions incheck, they keep everybody
focused on what's important andif there's kids, they're going
to work on a parenting plan aswell.
And then we have a neutral,expert financial person.
They're typically an accountant, they can be a financial
(03:59):
planner, but they're going to doall the financial aspects of
the divorce which in atraditional situation the
lawyer's handling right.
The lawyer's doing all thosethings.
The lawyer's doing theparenting plan.
They're analyzing the finances,they're figuring out tax
consequences, calculatingalimony, those kind of things.
In collaborative.
The lawyer is doing the legalwork, advocating, still,
(04:22):
informing about the law, writingall the contracts, those things
.
The facilitator, like I said,is there to keep everyone on
track and to focus on the kidsand to really work on that
parenting plan, and they'll dothat with the parties, without
the lawyers involved at all.
So it's really just focused onthe kids.
And then that financial person.
(04:43):
They're doing all thosefinancial analyses that the
lawyer was doing.
So tax consequences, alimony,except that's their field.
That's why it's so great asyou're using experts to do what
they do best.
So that's the team.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Yeah, so you go from basically a one person team with
an attorney to a three personteam and each person is focusing
on their area of expertise.
But from what you've told me,then the teams get together
right.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
So this is a series of team meetings, and so that's
why people often think ofmediation, because you know
you're all usually all togetherfor a mediation, and so we have
team meetings in thecollaborative process.
I would say on average there'stwo to four team meetings for
the entire process.
Sometimes there can be more, itdepends on the complexity of
the case.
(05:36):
And yeah, we're working throughthe issues of the divorce as a
team.
That's why the mental healthprofessional is going to start
by identifying everybody'scommon interests, common goals
and common concerns.
That way all the professionalteam is trying to meet those
same interests, make sureeverybody leaves with their
goals met and concerns addressed.
(05:57):
But we're all doing itcooperatively.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Right, and I think the other thing that's really
important to point out is, whilethe clients kind of pick their
attorneys right the mentalhealth person and the financial
person they're what you guyscall neutrals, so you're not
bringing your own therapist oryour partner is not bringing
(06:20):
their therapist.
There's theoretically no biasbecause this is a person on the
mental health side or thefinancial side, who is neutral
to you and is just working tosolve the problem, not take
sides Correct, in fact ifparties need therapists, that
mental health professional cansay you need to go get your own
therapist and here's somebodydirect there.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
But yeah, no, they're not serving that role.
It's really just focused ongetting them through the divorce
.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
Okay.
So, that being said, who can'tget a collaborative divorce?
Or do you do?
Does your team do thatscreening and and say to people
this is not an appropriatecollaborative divorce situation?
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Yeah, so usually.
So I would say it usuallystarts meeting with lawyers,
right?
And in Florida we're requiredto tell clients about all the
different options of divorce.
So not just litigation.
We should be telling everyoneabout pre-suit mediation and
collaborative divorce.
That's usually where peoplefind out about it, right?
So then they'll hire theircollaborative attorneys and then
(07:22):
those attorneys talk and itkind of depends.
I have some very, veryinfluential people, very strong
minded people, and so for themit's like, okay, we need a
really strong mental healthperson, so the lawyers will kind
of help.
All right, this is going to bea good fit for that family.
Some don't need quite as much,right.
But then they meet with thatmental health person and they're
(07:43):
doing a lot of the screening.
They're figuring out, okay,what are their real intentions,
what are the goals and how canwe get this family through it?
Are they a good fit or not?
Speaker 1 (07:52):
So you'll.
There are times where themental health neutral will say
you know, I've tried.
We can't get on the same page.
We got to go a different routeright, there's that level of
transparency.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Yep, absolutely, and we've had some where it's just
like oh, some things happen andI don't know that this is going
to be a good fit, so insteadwe're going to just pursue
mediation.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
No, and I think again , my experience with working
with clients of divorce is, orclients going through a divorce,
is they have no idea what'shappening.
A lot.
For a lot of people it's theironly divorce.
They're scared out of theirmind and so having even the
mental health neutral becauseone party may really want
(08:34):
collaborative divorce and bewilling to do it, but the other
person can't, it's not workable,right, and having an outsider
come in and say, you guys triedbut this is not going to work, I
think would be reassuring.
Because I think my experienceagain, clients are like I wish
someone would just tell me whatto do, tell me what to expect.
I hate trying to figure thisout right.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Yeah, they do thatpre-screening because there are
situations where we don't do itAfter that pre-screening.
That's when everyone signswhat's essentially the agreement
.
It's our contract, aparticipation agreement saying
we're committed to doingcollaborative and not going to
court.
And that's important becausethere's a downside to
collaborative, whereas if eitherspouse says I don't want to do
(09:17):
collaborative anymore and you'vealready gotten to that point
where you've signed thatagreement and you've formed a
team, everybody in the team isnow disqualified from litigation
.
And that's because in thecollaborative thing it's all
confidential.
We're having conversations witheach other and sharing
information that would neverhappen in litigation.
So I could not stay on as thelitigation attorney because I've
(09:41):
learned things about the other.
I mean, I may have even spokento the other spouse.
And if there's cases wherethere's substance abuse or
something those people aremaking admissions in these team
meetings about like yeah, I knowI have a problem, so we're all
talking about sobriety.
If that was to fall apart andthen they go to litigation, I
would be violating ethical rulesto know what I know and then
(10:04):
represent someone because Icould not find out some of that
stuff through litigation.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Right, see, I didn't know that.
I thought you just like pick adifferent option and move
forward.
Now you're saying you'rebasically starting over.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Correct, correct.
Now the parties can agree touse some of the things.
So they can say, like theneutrals, whatever the expert
financial person found out, youknow, we'll agree to use this in
litigation.
The parenting plan will agreeto use this in litigation but,
the lawyers absolutely cannotstay on.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Oh, wow, see, I learned something new today, so
can you just?
I know you gave a littleoverview earlier.
So there's the person reachesout to an attorney.
The attorney explains here areyour options.
Hopefully they're able theyselect collaborative.
(10:54):
Then what happens next?
What does the process look like?
Speaker 2 (10:57):
So either the spouse is going to talk to their other
spouse and they're going to gomeet a collaborative attorney on
their own or I'll send them aletter.
Your spouse has chosencollaborative divorce.
We think this is best for thefamily.
Here's some resources where youcan go look and find other
collaborative attorneys.
Go hire one and have themcontact me, and then that's
usually what happens.
And then that attorney reachesout to me and we talk about it.
(11:18):
We talk about who would be agood mental health professional
from our collaboratively trainedprofessionals that we have.
And then we refer our clients tothem.
They'll do a pre-screening, letus know.
Yes, I think this is a good fit.
Here's some key issues, orhere's what I see.
And then we go ahead and engagethat financial expert and then
we all sign that participationagreement and then we start
(11:41):
scheduling meetings and we'regoing to start we're still going
to do financial disclosures.
They're required in everydivorce but we don't file any of
this stuff with the court.
We're going to do it throughthis CPA.
And so we have these teammeetings.
I think that the typical firstteam meeting is explaining the
collaborative process, makingsure everybody's on the same
page, and then looking atinterim things, status quo are
(12:04):
bills being paid?
Are the parties living together?
Are there kids like?
What do we need to do in theinterim before our next meeting?
And then, before the nextmeeting, we're usually doing
financial disclosures.
So at some point at the secondmeeting, the CPA or such has
recommendations.
At that point, here's what Ithink the marital estate is.
Here's some tax consequences ifwe divide it like this, here's
(12:25):
the best scenario when we talkabout options.
At that point, the parties mayhave already met with the mental
health professional as well.
They may be starting on aparenting plan.
So, we might start talking aboutany kind of parenting plan
issues at the team meetings and,like I said, we usually have at
least two team meetings.
It depends on each family andwhether or not we can resolve
(12:45):
all issues quickly or if it'svery complicated.
Sometimes it'll take four orfive If there's businesses that
have to be valued or somethingalong those lines.
So the financial person hasmore work.
It may take longer and we mayhave more meetings, but we're
going to go through thosemeetings and have resolutions
along the way and then, once wereach agreements, the lawyers
(13:06):
are preparing marital settlementagreements the way and then,
once we reach agreements, thelawyers are preparing marital
settlement agreements and thenat the end of it we will file a
joint petition and a jointanswer with the court that tells
the court these guys have donecollaborative divorce, we do not
file the marital settlementagreement and we do not file any
of the financial records, so itall remains private, and then
the court will enter a judgmentrestoring everyone to single.
(13:28):
And that's the process.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
So that's really what I'm hearing too, that for
people who want privacy, thosethings do not get filed as court
records.
Am I understanding?
Speaker 2 (13:38):
that, yeah, that's huge.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Yeah, that's amazing.
So then, best case scenario,rachel, how long would this last
?
I know everything's different,but do you have like an average
of how long this process takes?
As a best case scenario, I'dsay on average probably six
months.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Okay, I've had some.
I've had some where we only hadone meeting and then we
resolved the entire divorce.
And so that case took 20 days.
Right.
Um, but I would say on averageprobably six months, and I think
the biggest difficulty is justaligning all those schedules to
set the meetings which is why wetry to set them all in advance,
(14:17):
if we can.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Okay.
So then I hear the wordcollaborative and as a therapist
I'm like collaborative soundsgreat to me, but I also know,
like you said and I'm I've likelearned these things along the
way and from talking to you thatthere's court, where you know a
judge gets involved, and thenthere's mediation, where you
have lawyers and a mediator.
(14:38):
But what is the benefit of acollaborative divorce versus a
mediation divorce or acourt-based divorce, litigation
based divorce?
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Okay, well, let me start.
So mediation-based understandthat when we're litigating or
we're in court, you're stillgoing to have to go to mediation
At least that's what ourcircuit requires.
So mediation may be a part of acourt divorce right.
People can go to pre-suitmediation where they go to
mediation resolve everything andthen file for divorce, right?
(15:18):
so in mediation, we'll startwith that.
You're limited by the rules,right, the rules of procedure,
the rules of court, so I'm onlygoing to have the information
that I'm able to obtain throughthose rules, so I may not have
complete information.
It's also usually just a onesetting day so and it's not
interest-based.
I think that's a hugedifference between mediation and
collaborative.
(15:39):
When you're going intomediation, we're focusing on
we're focusing on positions.
So my client doesn't want topay alimony, right.
That's his position, his realinterest might be that he's
afraid he's going to have towork forever and be unable to
retire.
And that's the real concern.
Or my client wants equal timewith the kids, but really the
(16:01):
concern is I want quality timewith the kids, so mediation
we're still position-based.
The kids so mediation we'restill position based, and so I
don't find it to be assuccessful as collaborative,
okay, whereas collaborative weare focusing on those interests.
Okay, you want to be, you wantsuper quality time with your
kids, but you're an ER doctorand your schedule sucks.
(16:22):
So what can we do to get you asmuch time with your kids?
But understand, it may not beequal and that's not really
what's important, and so we'refocusing on that.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
I love that differentiation that you just
gave.
That's.
That's a great example.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Court.
I mean to me court is, um, Ilike litigating still and Jason,
my husband, would tell youthat's cause, that's how I get
the meanness out.
But I also I can tell you thebad sides of court.
I mean litigation can takeyears.
I would say.
On average, a divorce throughthe court system is at least a
year.
I have had divorces that takefive years.
(16:57):
It is so expensive I mean youcan easily spend $100,000 each
on lawyers, right?
It's stressful.
It's constantly high conflict.
You are pitted against eachother, your lawyers are pitted
against each other.
It never improves relationships.
And if you actually have to goto a court hearing.
(17:18):
It only gets worse Once I'vecross-examined somebody.
They hate me, they hate myclient.
So that's what you look at withcourt.
When I look at collaborative,it's faster, much faster,
despite the fact that we'veinvolved more people.
It's cheaper.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
I was just going to say.
I know people are thinking yougot three people on my team, how
much is this going to cost me?
Speaker 2 (17:39):
So let me tell you so .
Lawyers on average are anywherebetween like $200 to $500 an
hour, right.
Mental health professionals,typically, are much lower than
that Even CPAs are lower thanthat.
So, while I could do yourfinancial disclosures, I'm not
an accountant and you're goingto pay me $400 an hour to do
them, versus in collaborative.
(18:00):
We have a financial expertwho's $200 an hour and they're
going to do a way better jobthan me.
Also, we share these expertsbecause in litigation,
particularly if you haveanything that's complicated.
You've got somebody that's beenhiding money, or you have a
business that needs to be valued.
Well, in litigation we're hiringcompeting financial experts, so
(18:22):
you're doubling the cost.
So that's why you know, whenyou think about it, it ends up
being much cheaper.
Also because it's so fast,because there's no hearings,
there's no depositions, it'scheaper.
You're not paying a lawyer todo all that work, so that's a
huge advantage.
It absolutely preservesrelationships for co-parenting
(18:43):
and that's why I know Imentioned on our last episode
about seeing clients after thedivorce was over.
I remember one of my earliercollaborative cases.
Both parties have now remarried.
They share the golf cart.
It goes back and forth with thekids.
Now that they've remarried, allfour parents go
trick-or-treating with the kidstogether, like that's how well
(19:06):
they've maintained theirrelationship through that
process, right?
So just see that like that.
I mean it just gives me thechills.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Right, it's so wonderful.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
So that's that's another benefit.
Um, the parties make thedecisions.
This is a huge thing.
So when you go to court, youknow the judge may see a
snapshot of your life and theybased on maybe eight hours of
information and you're going tobe stuck with it for the rest of
your life and judges can makebad decisions, yeah, whereas
(19:39):
this one, you're going to makethe decisions.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
And also I have found that people are more likely to
follow things when they'vecreated it themselves versus
they've been told to do so oh,that's like basic psychology,
like knowledge, right, that whenyou get engagement and buy-in
you get better follow through.
So yeah, that's just using.
You know human nature to tocarry out the divorce process.
(20:02):
So then, rachel, I know thatyou started the Capital
Collaborative Group inTallahassee and now it's grown
to.
You told me, like over 40professionals attorneys, mental
health neutrals and financialneutrals Tell me why did you
bring this to Tallahassee andstart this group, and why are
other attorneys?
(20:23):
I met them at your office oneday why are they coming
alongside you in this venture?
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Okay because it works .
Okay, Everybody can see that itworks.
Anybody that has acollaborative case ends that
case thinking this was so muchbetter than had these, this
family, been in litigation, sothat's that's the easiest one.
Um, I think you know, back inlike probably 2014, there was
only a few of us doing this andthen, once it became law, I felt
(20:49):
like we've really got toestablish a group of us so we
can grow, but also to make surewe're all doing the same process
, we're doing best practices.
So that's why I started it.
And then we've continued togrow and I'm happy to say we've
grown so much to know that wehad just a handful of people and
(21:09):
now we're at over 40.
And now we have so many morecollaborative cases.
And the next step.
I really want to starteducating the public about this
as an option.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Well, and that's why I wanted you to come on today,
because once I started talkingwith you about it, I attended
that meeting with you.
I've heard clients talk aboutit.
I've actually referred some ofmy clients who I kind of
screened myself and I thoughtthey're telling me Nari, I don't
want a lot of conflict, right,I want.
(21:40):
I hear a lot of people saying Iwant what's best for my kids.
I know low conflict during thedivorce is best for my kids.
And I have a lot of clientssaying I want to share custody
of my children because I knowit's what's best for them.
Want to share custody of mychildren because I know it's
what's best for them.
So I'm like so they're alreadygiving me these flags, these
green flags, to go ahead and belike have you heard of
(22:06):
collaborative divorce?
And I would say 10 times out of10 right now, when I tell a
client, have you heard ofcollaborative divorce?
They're like no, what's that?
So then I'm emailing them yourwebsite saying take a look at
this website.
They sit down with theirpartner and a lot of times their
partner's like yeah, let's,let's get more information and
find out.
You know how to do it.
So a lot of the public doesn'tknow about this, and that's why
(22:27):
I wanted to have you on today.
But I also, um, you know, wantto kind of further that mission
of let's tell more people aboutit, let's get more trainings,
because, at least for me, youknow, the winners here at the
end of the day are the, the, theclients, you know, the adults
because I see them.
(22:48):
And then the other winners arethe children.
Right, because divorce is hardand I've seen the physical and
mental and psychological toll ittakes on adults.
And if it and it's the process,it's like you said, it's the me
versus you, my team versus yourteam, pitted against each other
, and high stress and ambiguityof how long this is going to
take, and it erodes away atthese people.
(23:11):
Um, but then also the kidssuffer too.
Right, because they hear aboutit.
Their parents don't thinkthey're listening.
Sometimes parents areinappropriate and they tell
their kids what's going on.
Well, we can't go to DisneyWorld because I got to spend so
much money fighting your mom.
So I can see you and I'm likedid you really just say that?
Yeah, so I see those as thewinners.
(23:34):
But I'm also hearing when Italked with you and some of the
other attorneys, it's, it's morefulfilling for you all and less
stressful.
I can imagine you walk awayagain feeling like we came up
with a solution that almosteveryone's happy with and we
didn't have to fight to get tothere.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Yeah, well, that's what big benefit is the what we
call option building?
But it's the creative aspectsthat you get in a case.
So one example is a parentingplan.
If people have a two and afour-year-old, the schedule that
you have at two and four maylook completely different than
at 14 and 16.
Right, but it's very hard tochange a parenting plan and if
(24:17):
you go to court, they're goingto make a decision based on
what's happening right now andthen you're stuck with it.
Versus, in collaborative, we cando step-ups.
We can have a schedule thatchanges as the kids get older.
It doesn't have to be exactlydefined, but we can do that too.
We can do the same thing forfinances.
We can do alimony step downs.
We could do a buyout of alimony, like.
(24:38):
It just gives you so much morefreedom to do things that the
court literally cannot order.
So that's always a nice benefittoo.
But then, yeah, as much as Iknow that you have to go to
court for some cases, the risksof court, I mean it's real, and
I've had personal friends thathave been given a horrible
(25:00):
ruling or, um, the judge appliedthe wrong law and they're stuck
with it because they can'tafford an appeal right um.
So if you're, if you can, thatI would always encourage you to.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Yeah, oh, wow, okay.
Well, rachel, you've sold meand.
I don't, I don't need acollaborative divorce, but I'm
going to keep advocating for it.
Um, because I believe in whatyou do and I can see the passion
in it.
And, yeah, rachel is part ofthis collaborative in
Tallahassee, the CapitalCollaborative Group.
You can find their website,just Google Capital
(25:40):
Collaborative Group.
That is a mouthful to say, itis CapitalCollaborativeGroupcom.
Okay, there you go and you canfind a whole host of wonderful
attorneys and I went to one oftheir monthly meetings and I met
some of the other attorneys andthey were great of their
monthly meetings and I met someof the other attorneys and they
were great and I loved beinglike the observer and just
hearing how passionate you are.
(26:00):
You are continually gettingtrainings and educations at your
monthly meeting.
Oh you're doing an advancedtraining in the fall.
So this is, this is reallysomething that y'all have
invested in so that you canserve your clients, and I really
appreciate that.
Hi, welcome to the Coupled Podcast.
It's just Nari today, but Ihave the joy of having Rachel
Borentrager, divorce attorney,back on for another episode.
We're going to talk about atotally different topic this
time, and Rachel is a localpioneer on what is called the
collaborative divorce process.
(00:20):
I learned about it a coupleyears ago through Rachel.
Rachel and I'm like this isgenius.
People need to know about itand I think a lot of people
don't, because people aren't outthere just researching how do
you get a divorce until theyactually need one.
So, Rachel, I'm going to haveyou explain.
Like what is this thing calledcollaborative divorce?
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Yeah, for me, I've always kind of struggled to
define it.
I'll be honest.
Um, it is.
It's basically it's a differentmethod of divorcing where you
don't go to court Okay, it'sprivate, it's confidential.
You, the spouses, use neutralexperts and they work together
as a team respectfully toresolve all the issues and never
(01:03):
go to court.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
That sounds pretty amazing, yeah, okay, and so let
me ask you can anyone get acollaborative divorce?
Is this option available toeveryone, or is there?
Are there certain situationswhere collaborative divorce is a
better option than others?
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Well, definitely there are certain situations
where it's better than others,but collaborative divorce has
been around for decades.
In Florida, it probably startedtaking off around like 2010.
It became an actual law bystatute in 2016.
So everybody can get thecollaborative divorce if they
want it.
Um, so everybody can get thecollaborative divorce if they
(01:48):
want it.
I have found, you know, if you,if one spouse is really
vindictive or spiteful and theycan't be fair and they can't
look out for their soon to be exspouse's best interests, then
no, it's probably not going towork.
Otherwise, I even used to youknow, if you'd asked me 10 years
ago like domestic violencecases, dependency cases, those
(02:11):
kinds of things like could theystill go through collaborative,
and I would have said no, butnow I would say yes, as long as
you have a strong enough team,particularly a strong enough
mental health facilitator, thenI think you could.
I actually think that thatwould be better for in a
situation where there's domesticviolence, better at protecting
the victim spouse than the legalsystem.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Right, so that brings up a really good point.
So typically in a verytraditional divorce, your team
is just like your attorneys andyour attorneys, employees,
paralegals, things like that butthere is an actual team that
each person has in thecollaborative divorce process.
Who's on the team?
(02:53):
Yeah, so you have to have.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Everybody has a lawyer, Each spouse has a lawyer
.
Those lawyers have to becollaboratively trained and
that's very important because asa lawyer, it's a huge mind
shift.
Normally, when I representsomebody, you know I'm there,
I'm a very strong advocate.
You know you've, you know me.
I'm kind of a pushy individual,I love to talk, I'm just, I'm a
(03:16):
strong attorney.
In the collaborative settingit's a mind shift.
My goal is settling the caseand it's my client's best
interest.
I have to remove thatposition-based strategy that
I've always taken as a litigator.
So that collaborative trainedlawyer is important.
(03:36):
Then you also bring in a mentalhealth professional.
This person is the facilitator.
They're going to lead all ofour team meetings.
They keep all the emotions incheck, they keep everybody
focused on what's important andif there's kids, they're going
to work on a parenting plan aswell.
And then we have a neutral,expert financial person.
They're typically an accountant, they can be a financial
(03:59):
planner, but they're going to doall the financial aspects of
the divorce which in atraditional situation the
lawyer's handling right.
The lawyer's doing all thosethings.
The lawyer's doing theparenting plan.
They're analyzing the finances,they're figuring out tax
consequences, calculatingalimony, those kind of things.
In collaborative.
The lawyer is doing the legalwork, advocating, still,
(04:22):
informing about the law, writingall the contracts, those things
.
The facilitator, like I said,is there to keep everyone on
track and to focus on the kidsand to really work on that
parenting plan, and they'll dothat with the parties, without
the lawyers involved at all.
So it's really just focused onthe kids.
And then that financial person.
(04:43):
They're doing all thosefinancial analyses that the
lawyer was doing.
So tax consequences, alimony,except that's their field.
That's why it's so great asyou're using experts to do what
they do best.
So that's the team.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Yeah, so you go from basically a one person team with
an attorney to a three personteam and each person is focusing
on their area of expertise.
But from what you've told me,then the teams get together
right.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
So this is a series of team meetings, and so that's
why people often think ofmediation, because you know
you're all usually all togetherfor a mediation, and so we have
team meetings in thecollaborative process.
I would say on average there'stwo to four team meetings for
the entire process.
Sometimes there can be more, itdepends on the complexity of
the case.
(05:36):
And yeah, we're working throughthe issues of the divorce as a
team.
That's why the mental healthprofessional is going to start
by identifying everybody'scommon interests, common goals
and common concerns.
That way all the professionalteam is trying to meet those
same interests, make sureeverybody leaves with their
goals met and concerns addressed.
(05:57):
But we're all doing itcooperatively.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Right, and I think the other thing that's really
important to point out is, whilethe clients kind of pick their
attorneys right the mentalhealth person and the financial
person they're what you guyscall neutrals, so you're not
bringing your own therapist oryour partner is not bringing
(06:20):
their therapist.
There's theoretically no biasbecause this is a person on the
mental health side or thefinancial side, who is neutral
to you and is just working tosolve the problem, not take
sides Correct, in fact ifparties need therapists, that
mental health professional cansay you need to go get your own
therapist and here's somebodydirect there.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
But yeah, no, they're not serving that role.
It's really just focused ongetting them through the divorce
.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
Okay.
So, that being said, who can'tget a collaborative divorce?
Or do you do?
Does your team do thatscreening and and say to people
this is not an appropriatecollaborative divorce situation?
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Yeah, so usually.
So I would say it usuallystarts meeting with lawyers,
right?
And in Florida we're requiredto tell clients about all the
different options of divorce.
So not just litigation.
We should be telling everyoneabout pre-suit mediation and
collaborative divorce.
That's usually where peoplefind out about it, right?
So then they'll hire theircollaborative attorneys and then
(07:22):
those attorneys talk and itkind of depends.
I have some very, veryinfluential people, very strong
minded people, and so for themit's like, okay, we need a
really strong mental healthperson, so the lawyers will kind
of help.
All right, this is going to bea good fit for that family.
Some don't need quite as much,right.
But then they meet with thatmental health person and they're
(07:43):
doing a lot of the screening.
They're figuring out, okay,what are their real intentions,
what are the goals and how canwe get this family through it?
Are they a good fit or not?
Speaker 1 (07:52):
So you'll.
There are times where themental health neutral will say
you know, I've tried.
We can't get on the same page.
We got to go a different routeright, there's that level of
transparency.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Yep, absolutely, and we've had some where it's just
like oh, some things happen andI don't know that this is going
to be a good fit, so insteadwe're going to just pursue
mediation.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
No, and I think again , my experience with working
with clients of divorce is, orclients going through a divorce,
is they have no idea what'shappening.
A lot.
For a lot of people it's theironly divorce.
They're scared out of theirmind and so having even the
mental health neutral becauseone party may really want
(08:34):
collaborative divorce and bewilling to do it, but the other
person can't, it's not workable,right, and having an outsider
come in and say, you guys triedbut this is not going to work, I
think would be reassuring.
Because I think my experienceagain, clients are like I wish
someone would just tell me whatto do, tell me what to expect.
I hate trying to figure thisout right.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Yeah, they do thatpre-screening because there are
situations where we don't do itAfter that pre-screening.
That's when everyone signswhat's essentially the agreement
.
It's our contract, aparticipation agreement saying
we're committed to doingcollaborative and not going to
court.
And that's important becausethere's a downside to
collaborative, whereas if eitherspouse says I don't want to do
(09:17):
collaborative anymore and you'vealready gotten to that point
where you've signed thatagreement and you've formed a
team, everybody in the team isnow disqualified from litigation
.
And that's because in thecollaborative thing it's all
confidential.
We're having conversations witheach other and sharing
information that would neverhappen in litigation.
So I could not stay on as thelitigation attorney because I've
(09:41):
learned things about the other.
I mean, I may have even spokento the other spouse.
And if there's cases wherethere's substance abuse or
something those people aremaking admissions in these team
meetings about like yeah, I knowI have a problem, so we're all
talking about sobriety.
If that was to fall apart andthen they go to litigation, I
would be violating ethical rulesto know what I know and then
(10:04):
represent someone because Icould not find out some of that
stuff through litigation.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Right, see, I didn't know that.
I thought you just like pick adifferent option and move
forward.
Now you're saying you'rebasically starting over.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Correct, correct.
Now the parties can agree touse some of the things.
So they can say, like theneutrals, whatever the expert
financial person found out, youknow, we'll agree to use this in
litigation.
The parenting plan will agreeto use this in litigation but,
the lawyers absolutely cannotstay on.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Oh, wow, see, I learned something new today, so
can you just?
I know you gave a littleoverview earlier.
So there's the person reachesout to an attorney.
The attorney explains here areyour options.
Hopefully they're able theyselect collaborative.
(10:54):
Then what happens next?
What does the process look like?
Speaker 2 (10:57):
So either the spouse is going to talk to their other
spouse and they're going to gomeet a collaborative attorney on
their own or I'll send them aletter.
Your spouse has chosencollaborative divorce.
We think this is best for thefamily.
Here's some resources where youcan go look and find other
collaborative attorneys.
Go hire one and have themcontact me, and then that's
usually what happens.
And then that attorney reachesout to me and we talk about it.
(11:18):
We talk about who would be agood mental health professional
from our collaboratively trainedprofessionals that we have.
And then we refer our clients tothem.
They'll do a pre-screening, letus know.
Yes, I think this is a good fit.
Here's some key issues, orhere's what I see.
And then we go ahead and engagethat financial expert and then
we all sign that participationagreement and then we start
(11:41):
scheduling meetings and we'regoing to start we're still going
to do financial disclosures.
They're required in everydivorce but we don't file any of
this stuff with the court.
We're going to do it throughthis CPA.
And so we have these teammeetings.
I think that the typical firstteam meeting is explaining the
collaborative process, makingsure everybody's on the same
page, and then looking atinterim things, status quo are
(12:04):
bills being paid?
Are the parties living together?
Are there kids like?
What do we need to do in theinterim before our next meeting?
And then, before the nextmeeting, we're usually doing
financial disclosures.
So at some point at the secondmeeting, the CPA or such has
recommendations.
At that point, here's what Ithink the marital estate is.
Here's some tax consequences ifwe divide it like this, here's
(12:25):
the best scenario when we talkabout options.
At that point, the parties mayhave already met with the mental
health professional as well.
They may be starting on aparenting plan.
So, we might start talking aboutany kind of parenting plan
issues at the team meetings and,like I said, we usually have at
least two team meetings.
It depends on each family andwhether or not we can resolve
(12:45):
all issues quickly or if it'svery complicated.
Sometimes it'll take four orfive If there's businesses that
have to be valued or somethingalong those lines.
So the financial person hasmore work.
It may take longer and we mayhave more meetings, but we're
going to go through thosemeetings and have resolutions
along the way and then, once wereach agreements, the lawyers
(13:06):
are preparing marital settlementagreements the way and then,
once we reach agreements, thelawyers are preparing marital
settlement agreements and thenat the end of it we will file a
joint petition and a jointanswer with the court that tells
the court these guys have donecollaborative divorce, we do not
file the marital settlementagreement and we do not file any
of the financial records, so itall remains private, and then
the court will enter a judgmentrestoring everyone to single.
(13:28):
And that's the process.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
So that's really what I'm hearing too, that for
people who want privacy, thosethings do not get filed as court
records.
Am I understanding?
Speaker 2 (13:38):
that, yeah, that's huge.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Yeah, that's amazing.
So then, best case scenario,rachel, how long would this last
?
I know everything's different,but do you have like an average
of how long this process takes?
As a best case scenario, I'dsay on average probably six
months.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Okay, I've had some.
I've had some where we only hadone meeting and then we
resolved the entire divorce.
And so that case took 20 days.
Right.
Um, but I would say on averageprobably six months, and I think
the biggest difficulty is justaligning all those schedules to
set the meetings which is why wetry to set them all in advance,
(14:17):
if we can.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Okay.
So then I hear the wordcollaborative and as a therapist
I'm like collaborative soundsgreat to me, but I also know,
like you said and I'm I've likelearned these things along the
way and from talking to you thatthere's court, where you know a
judge gets involved, and thenthere's mediation, where you
have lawyers and a mediator.
(14:38):
But what is the benefit of acollaborative divorce versus a
mediation divorce or acourt-based divorce, litigation
based divorce?
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Okay, well, let me start.
So mediation-based understandthat when we're litigating or
we're in court, you're stillgoing to have to go to mediation
At least that's what ourcircuit requires.
So mediation may be a part of acourt divorce right.
People can go to pre-suitmediation where they go to
mediation resolve everything andthen file for divorce, right?
(15:18):
so in mediation, we'll startwith that.
You're limited by the rules,right, the rules of procedure,
the rules of court, so I'm onlygoing to have the information
that I'm able to obtain throughthose rules, so I may not have
complete information.
It's also usually just a onesetting day so and it's not
interest-based.
I think that's a hugedifference between mediation and
collaborative.
(15:39):
When you're going intomediation, we're focusing on
we're focusing on positions.
So my client doesn't want topay alimony, right.
That's his position, his realinterest might be that he's
afraid he's going to have towork forever and be unable to
retire.
And that's the real concern.
Or my client wants equal timewith the kids, but really the
(16:01):
concern is I want quality timewith the kids, so mediation
we're still position-based.
The kids so mediation we'restill position based, and so I
don't find it to be assuccessful as collaborative,
okay, whereas collaborative weare focusing on those interests.
Okay, you want to be, you wantsuper quality time with your
kids, but you're an ER doctorand your schedule sucks.
(16:22):
So what can we do to get you asmuch time with your kids?
But understand, it may not beequal and that's not really
what's important, and so we'refocusing on that.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
I love that differentiation that you just
gave.
That's.
That's a great example.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Court.
I mean to me court is, um, Ilike litigating still and Jason,
my husband, would tell youthat's cause, that's how I get
the meanness out.
But I also I can tell you thebad sides of court.
I mean litigation can takeyears.
I would say.
On average, a divorce throughthe court system is at least a
year.
I have had divorces that takefive years.
(16:57):
It is so expensive I mean youcan easily spend $100,000 each
on lawyers, right?
It's stressful.
It's constantly high conflict.
You are pitted against eachother, your lawyers are pitted
against each other.
It never improves relationships.
And if you actually have to goto a court hearing.
(17:18):
It only gets worse Once I'vecross-examined somebody.
They hate me, they hate myclient.
So that's what you look at withcourt.
When I look at collaborative,it's faster, much faster,
despite the fact that we'veinvolved more people.
It's cheaper.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
I was just going to say.
I know people are thinking yougot three people on my team, how
much is this going to cost me?
Speaker 2 (17:39):
So let me tell you so .
Lawyers on average are anywherebetween like $200 to $500 an
hour, right.
Mental health professionals,typically, are much lower than
that Even CPAs are lower thanthat.
So, while I could do yourfinancial disclosures, I'm not
an accountant and you're goingto pay me $400 an hour to do
them, versus in collaborative.
(18:00):
We have a financial expertwho's $200 an hour and they're
going to do a way better jobthan me.
Also, we share these expertsbecause in litigation,
particularly if you haveanything that's complicated.
You've got somebody that's beenhiding money, or you have a
business that needs to be valued.
Well, in litigation we're hiringcompeting financial experts, so
(18:22):
you're doubling the cost.
So that's why you know, whenyou think about it, it ends up
being much cheaper.
Also because it's so fast,because there's no hearings,
there's no depositions, it'scheaper.
You're not paying a lawyer todo all that work, so that's a
huge advantage.
It absolutely preservesrelationships for co-parenting
(18:43):
and that's why I know Imentioned on our last episode
about seeing clients after thedivorce was over.
I remember one of my earliercollaborative cases.
Both parties have now remarried.
They share the golf cart.
It goes back and forth with thekids.
Now that they've remarried, allfour parents go
trick-or-treating with the kidstogether, like that's how well
(19:06):
they've maintained theirrelationship through that
process, right?
So just see that like that.
I mean it just gives me thechills.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Right, it's so wonderful.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
So that's that's another benefit.
Um, the parties make thedecisions.
This is a huge thing.
So when you go to court, youknow the judge may see a
snapshot of your life and theybased on maybe eight hours of
information and you're going tobe stuck with it for the rest of
your life and judges can makebad decisions, yeah, whereas
(19:39):
this one, you're going to makethe decisions.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
And also I have found that people are more likely to
follow things when they'vecreated it themselves versus
they've been told to do so oh,that's like basic psychology,
like knowledge, right, that whenyou get engagement and buy-in
you get better follow through.
So yeah, that's just using.
You know human nature to tocarry out the divorce process.
(20:02):
So then, rachel, I know thatyou started the Capital
Collaborative Group inTallahassee and now it's grown
to.
You told me, like over 40professionals attorneys, mental
health neutrals and financialneutrals Tell me why did you
bring this to Tallahassee andstart this group, and why are
other attorneys?
(20:23):
I met them at your office oneday why are they coming
alongside you in this venture?
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Okay because it works .
Okay, Everybody can see that itworks.
Anybody that has acollaborative case ends that
case thinking this was so muchbetter than had these, this
family, been in litigation, sothat's that's the easiest one.
Um, I think you know, back inlike probably 2014, there was
only a few of us doing this andthen, once it became law, I felt
(20:49):
like we've really got toestablish a group of us so we
can grow, but also to make surewe're all doing the same process
, we're doing best practices.
So that's why I started it.
And then we've continued togrow and I'm happy to say we've
grown so much to know that wehad just a handful of people and
(21:09):
now we're at over 40.
And now we have so many morecollaborative cases.
And the next step.
I really want to starteducating the public about this
as an option.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Well, and that's why I wanted you to come on today,
because once I started talkingwith you about it, I attended
that meeting with you.
I've heard clients talk aboutit.
I've actually referred some ofmy clients who I kind of
screened myself and I thoughtthey're telling me Nari, I don't
want a lot of conflict, right,I want.
(21:40):
I hear a lot of people saying Iwant what's best for my kids.
I know low conflict during thedivorce is best for my kids.
And I have a lot of clientssaying I want to share custody
of my children because I knowit's what's best for them.
Want to share custody of mychildren because I know it's
what's best for them.
So I'm like so they're alreadygiving me these flags, these
green flags, to go ahead and belike have you heard of
(22:06):
collaborative divorce?
And I would say 10 times out of10 right now, when I tell a
client, have you heard ofcollaborative divorce?
They're like no, what's that?
So then I'm emailing them yourwebsite saying take a look at
this website.
They sit down with theirpartner and a lot of times their
partner's like yeah, let's,let's get more information and
find out.
You know how to do it.
So a lot of the public doesn'tknow about this, and that's why
(22:27):
I wanted to have you on today.
But I also, um, you know, wantto kind of further that mission
of let's tell more people aboutit, let's get more trainings,
because, at least for me, youknow, the winners here at the
end of the day are the, the, theclients, you know, the adults
because I see them.
(22:48):
And then the other winners arethe children.
Right, because divorce is hardand I've seen the physical and
mental and psychological toll ittakes on adults.
And if it and it's the process,it's like you said, it's the me
versus you, my team versus yourteam, pitted against each other
, and high stress and ambiguityof how long this is going to
take, and it erodes away atthese people.
(23:11):
Um, but then also the kidssuffer too.
Right, because they hear aboutit.
Their parents don't thinkthey're listening.
Sometimes parents areinappropriate and they tell
their kids what's going on.
Well, we can't go to DisneyWorld because I got to spend so
much money fighting your mom.
So I can see you and I'm likedid you really just say that?
Yeah, so I see those as thewinners.
(23:34):
But I'm also hearing when Italked with you and some of the
other attorneys, it's, it's morefulfilling for you all and less
stressful.
I can imagine you walk awayagain feeling like we came up
with a solution that almosteveryone's happy with and we
didn't have to fight to get tothere.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Yeah, well, that's what big benefit is the what we
call option building?
But it's the creative aspectsthat you get in a case.
So one example is a parentingplan.
If people have a two and afour-year-old, the schedule that
you have at two and four maylook completely different than
at 14 and 16.
Right, but it's very hard tochange a parenting plan and if
(24:17):
you go to court, they're goingto make a decision based on
what's happening right now andthen you're stuck with it.
Versus, in collaborative, we cando step-ups.
We can have a schedule thatchanges as the kids get older.
It doesn't have to be exactlydefined, but we can do that too.
We can do the same thing forfinances.
We can do alimony step downs.
We could do a buyout of alimony, like.
(24:38):
It just gives you so much morefreedom to do things that the
court literally cannot order.
So that's always a nice benefittoo.
But then, yeah, as much as Iknow that you have to go to
court for some cases, the risksof court, I mean it's real, and
I've had personal friends thathave been given a horrible
(25:00):
ruling or, um, the judge appliedthe wrong law and they're stuck
with it because they can'tafford an appeal right um.
So if you're, if you can, thatI would always encourage you to.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Yeah, oh, wow, okay.
Well, rachel, you've sold meand.
I don't, I don't need acollaborative divorce, but I'm
going to keep advocating for it.
Um, because I believe in whatyou do and I can see the passion
in it.
And, yeah, rachel is part ofthis collaborative in
Tallahassee, the CapitalCollaborative Group.
You can find their website,just Google Capital
(25:40):
Collaborative Group.
That is a mouthful to say, itis CapitalCollaborativeGroupcom.
Okay, there you go and you canfind a whole host of wonderful
attorneys and I went to one oftheir monthly meetings and I met
some of the other attorneys andthey were great of their
monthly meetings and I met someof the other attorneys and they
were great and I loved beinglike the observer and just
hearing how passionate you are.
(26:00):
You are continually gettingtrainings and educations at your
monthly meeting.
Oh you're doing an advancedtraining in the fall.
So this is, this is reallysomething that y'all have
invested in so that you canserve your clients, and I really
appreciate that.
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