July 30, 2025 • 21 mins
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Season 2 Episode 8: Inside the Mind of a Divorce Attorney: What Makes Couples Split?
Rachel Borntreger, a Florida board-certified marital and family law expert, reveals the hidden patterns behind modern divorce in this illuminating conversation. Drawing from over a decade of experience working with couples at their breaking point, Rachel offers a rare glimpse into what's really happening when marriages fail.
The primary culprit? What Rachel calls a "power imbalance" - where one partner carries a disproportionate burden in the relationship. Whether it's managing a career while also handling household responsibilities and childcare, or feeling financially dependent and yearning for independence, these imbalances breed relationship-destroying resentment. Most fundamentally, Rachel observes that failed communication underlies most divorces, with couples neglecting to regularly revisit crucial conversations about their goals, finances, and parenting approaches.
Women initiate divorce significantly more often than men, particularly in their 40s - a time when careers are established, children are more independent, and many conclude they've "tried hard enough" to make the marriage work. Perhaps most surprising is Rachel's counterintuitive insight about high-conflict divorces: "They love each other so much when they are constantly fighting." This aligns perfectly with the therapeutic perspective that indifference, not hatred, signals the true death of a relationship.
For couples hoping to avoid divorce, Rachel recommends treating marriage like a business partnership with regular "check-ins" about finances, goals, and expectations. And for those navigating divorce, she emphasizes building a comprehensive support network including therapy and possibly medication, while maintaining realistic expectations about what attorneys can provide versus mental health professionals. Listen now to gain invaluable wisdom that could help strengthen your relationship or navigate its end with greater clarity and compassion.
Dr. Jenna and Dr. Nari are the Licensed Marriage and Family Therapists behind the Coupled Podcast. They both have private practices where they work with individuals, couples, and families in Florida. The two are ready to shake up the world of couples therapy and want to extend resources beyond the couples they see in their private practices.
If you like this episode and want to know more about taking the next step to improve your communication, connection, and intimacy, head over to our websites to learn more about our Staying Coupled and Getting Coupled courses. These online courses give you the flexibility to improve your relationship from the comfort and convenience of your home. The Staying Coupled course is for couples who want to do the work to connect, communicate, and have the healthiest relationship possible. The Getting Coupled course is for premarital couples wanting to learn the essentials for a successful marriage. Topics in both courses include the main issues couples face:
- Communication
- Family Boundaries
- Family Finances
- Sex
- Family Planning
- Division of Labor
- Couple Activities
For more information, visit drjennascott.com/courses or drnarijeter.com/courses
Disclaimer: This podcast is not a substitute for therapy. If you’re struggling, we encourage you to seek support from a licensed therapist in your state. Our relationship suggestions and content may not be applicable or advised for relationships with intimate partner violence (IPV). If you need resources, contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline 800-799-7233.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi and welcome to today's episode of the Couple
Podcast, and I am so excitedbecause we have our very first
guest on the Couple Podcast.
She is my friend and someone Igreatly admire as a professional
woman in the community.
Her name is Rachel Borentrager,and Rachel is a divorce
(00:21):
attorney.
She's a Florida board-certifiedmarital and family law expert,
a Supreme Court certified familymediator and a collaborative
attorney.
That's a mouthful.
She founded the nonprofitCapital Collaborative Group and
brings over a decade oflitigation and mediation
experience to every case.
(00:42):
I'll be honest, I found Rachelyears ago on the internet and
also heard word of mouth throughsome shared clients that we had
, and I thought who is this girl?
She is awesome.
I want to take her to coffee, Iwant to meet her.
I thought, oh my gosh, she'sgoing to think I'm crazy, I'm
stalking her.
But we struck up a friendshipand we keep in touch here in
(01:02):
Tallahassee, florida.
Rachel invites me to meetingsthat she thinks would help me,
um, just be a better servant tothe community, and Rachel does
serve her community in so manyways.
She supports the arts.
Um, she's just an all aroundawesome gal.
So thanks for coming today,rachel.
So actually I'm going to haveRachel here for two episodes,
(01:23):
cause she has I couldn't squeezein all of everything she knows
into one episode.
But today's episode we're goingto focus just on your
perspective of what is happeningwith today's couples, because I
see couples in a different wayand I just thought it would be
neat for you to share yourexperience on when people are
(01:46):
coming to your office, whencouples are coming, mainly one
individual in the couple andthey're initiating divorce.
I wanted to kind of pull backthe veil because I think
sometimes when people listen tome as a therapist, they know,
okay, well, you see people whowant help, but you see like a
different population of people,people who may not have ever
(02:08):
gone to even therapy, right,yeah, yeah.
So I think you have a lot tosay there.
So I'm going to start you witha question here, rachel what is
the most common reason fordivorce that you're seeing and
there could be several, right,but seeing with couples right
now?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Yeah, I think, um, overall, it's easy to say
communication problems, theyjust don't stay on the same page
.
Um, more detailed, I'd say apower imbalance, where sometimes
I see an individual who theyfeel resentment towards their
(02:44):
apartment.
They feel like they're, um,maybe they're, uh, really
educated and really driven andreally ambitious and there are,
you know, a leader at work, butthen they're also managing the
household and also managing thechildren and they feel like
their other partner isn'tcontributing.
And so that builds up thatresentment and usually that
person ends up being like I'mdone and I want out.
(03:06):
I see that, but I see it aswell where even people that you
know their role is mainly in thehome and they're not working,
but then they get resentful tothe other person who is maybe
the breadwinner and they wantthat on their own.
They want that independence.
So I see this power imbalance.
That's one of them.
(03:31):
Sometimes you know, you just seepeople that grow apart instead
of growing together.
But most of it, to me, comesdown to communication.
They don't stay on the samepage.
They don't talk about futuregoals.
They don't talk about you know,when are we retiring?
What does our financial picturelook like?
How many kids are we having?
(03:51):
What's our parenting styles?
They don't have thoseconversations ahead of time, and
then they're not revisitingthose issues every year, so they
drift apart in where they standon those positions and then by
the time they come to me, eitherthey've gone to counseling and
it's failed, or they're not eveninterested in counseling.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Yeah, oh, that's.
That's a really great point andwe I preach that in therapy, we
say it on the podcast is thatyou said, revisiting those
things, yes, you have to havethose conversations up front.
Those are great to have in likepremarital counseling or just
pre-marriage conversations, butthen, yeah, but you got to keep
having them.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
That's important.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
That's why you know if you can treat marriage like a
business partnership, like ifyou were going to go into
business with this other person.
You would see annual financialstatements.
How is the business doingfinancially?
You would talk about what'shappening with the business next
year.
What's our long-term goals?
What are our short-term goals?
Like, you talk about thosethings and you would constantly
(04:52):
revisit it.
And you would also talk about,like hey, if this doesn't work
out?
Speaker 1 (04:56):
what does?
Speaker 2 (04:57):
dissolving the partnership look like Like
that's how you enter a business,and I personally think people
should be entering theirmarriage and treating their
marriage very similar to that.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Yeah, I love that, I love that model.
I do want to ask you because Ilove that you called it a power
imbalance and I think that whenpeople think about power, when,
with respect to couples, theythink about who's the boss,
right, like, but, or who has themost say but power is not just
about like who gives directionsor who makes the decisions.
(05:30):
It's also about who hasresources, right, yeah, so when
you were talking about someonehaving a job or you know, bring,
maybe it's, it's.
You know a social life, theyhave a more abundant social life
.
Or you know their family livesin town or whatever, they have
social support, like those areall parts of that power.
(05:50):
But it sounds like you'resaying having a career gives you
power in a relationship.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Oh, but don't worry.
I've also seen the resentmentof somebody that is very close
with their family and theirfamily is super engaged with the
kids and everything, and thenthe other spouse doesn't have a
lot of family.
And then they become resentfuleven of how much that other
parents, parents and family andextended family are involved.
So I've seen that too, rightRight.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
So then, rachel, are there like groups of people, or
a certain sex of people who arelike who initiates divorce more?
Speaker 2 (06:27):
And then tell me why and I know that that could look
different- Right, okay, well,let me preface this by saying
that, as a female attorney, Ithink I have more female clients
, right, I think women want tobe represented by a woman.
They want to have thatconnection, that somebody that
really gets them.
Uh, my law partner is myhusband.
(06:47):
I love that he has most of themale clients.
They gravitate to him.
So I'm kind of I recognize thatlike my viewpoint is biased
because I have so many femaleclients, but I think that
females are more likely toinitiate divorce than men.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Yeah, and that's what the data has shown for a long
time, that women are more likelyto initiate, but that that's
actually increased as women havemore access to finances, right?
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Yeah, and I see women .
So usually when they come to meand they're initiating, it's
either they're done, they feellike they've given all they can
and either counseling isn'tworking, changes aren't
happening whatever they're donewith the relationship, or
they're coming to me becausethey feel like their spouse is
either cheating or they're nolonger into it and they want to
(07:39):
get ahead of the divorce process.
So that's usually what I seewant to get ahead of the divorce
process.
So that's usually what I see.
Um, in fact, I was thinking,most of the male clients that I
represent are not the ones thatinitiated the divorce.
Um, when I have a male clientthat's initiated the divorce,
it's almost usually infidelitybased.
So the his spouse cheated.
(07:59):
No, he has cheated and alreadymoved on.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Oh wow, spouse cheated.
No, he has cheated, and alreadymoved on.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Oh wow, see, that's not what I would have guessed.
See, yeah, no, I don't see alot of, occasionally, female
infidelity but, that's not thedriving thing that I see at all.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Okay, what about and I'm curious cause I've heard
about this on other social mediathe graying of divorce, where
they're talking about age groupsof people getting divorced.
So, with what you're seeing, atleast in your practice, what's
like the kind of most popularage group of people getting
divorced?
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Or could you not?
Speaker 2 (08:37):
parcel it out that way, I'd probably say in their
40s, that's probably the biggestarea.
I would say.
I mean, yes, we've seen moreseniors getting divorced, but I
don't think that that is really.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
I think it's still that middle age group, yeah, and
that's when you see people havebeen married for a while.
Yep, they've raised their kids,they have a career.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
They don raised their kids.
They have a career, yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
They don't have infants, they have a solid
career and my perspective onthat is it's been long enough,
they've tried hard enough andthey go.
I'll be okay.
Right, I have some support.
Yeah, I've got my job.
That's going to stay the same,and I've tried.
The kids are older.
That's going to stay the same,and I've tried.
The kids are older.
They're not going to bedevastated and we'll be okay.
(09:25):
Yeah, exactly.
Oh, my goodness.
So when you listen to yourclients I know that because I've
heard clients talk about youand how they talk to you and I
know you as a person, so I knowyou're not just talking about
laws and rules and formulas.
I know they vent to you and, um, so do you ever have your own
(09:48):
ideas of like?
Could they have prevented this?
Is there stuff couples shouldbe doing to prevent getting
there?
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Oh, absolutely yeah, I think a lot of times when
people come to me I think, oh,y'all should have seen a
therapist months ago.
If you just talk to anybody,y'all could get on the same page
, but you're not there.
Oh, I have clients that theyare actively divorcing now and
I'm still like could they?
Could they still reconcile?
I think they could if they hadenough encouragement and support
(10:16):
and they were willing to try.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
You tell you've told me this theory you have about
people still being in love.
What's the thing that you cantell you're like, oh they're
still in love.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Oh yeah, I say they love each other so much when
they are constantly fightingconstant high conflict.
Everything's a dispute,everything, yeah.
So I'm like oh, they're stillvery much in love, I can tell.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Right, Because and I'll see that in in therapy
because when couples don't fightor when one person is just
totally apathetic, indifference.
So the opposite of love isn'thate, it's indifference.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Right.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
And so when couples don't fight, I'm like, oh,
they're in trouble, right, likethis is bad news because one or
both have checked out.
But when they're still fighting, I'm like, yes, like they still
matter to each other.
They still can be hurt by theother person, and you're not
hurt by someone you don't careabout right, exactly.
You're hurt by someone you careabout.
(11:10):
So I love your theory aboutwhen those couples are just at
each other, you're like they'reprobably still in love.
They love each other so much,right?
Oh, my goodness, that must behard too, because I know what
it's like to hope for people towork things out, but for you to
see that too, you might be like,oh, could you?
Speaker 2 (11:27):
just give it one last shot.
Yeah yeah, it can be reallyfrustrating.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
So what should people divorcing expect from their
divorce attorneys?
Because I feel like as atherapist, I end up doing some
education to my clients, not notlegal advice.
Right, I'm very careful aboutthat, but sometimes there'll be
like my attorney's not gettingback to me or like they don't
(11:53):
seem to care about like what'sgoing on with my kids and I'm
just like, but some of that isnot their role.
So, like, what do you wantpeople to know?
Especially, people entering indivorce are really scared.
A lot of times.
They haven't done that before,they've never thought about it.
What should they be expectingfrom divorce attorneys?
That's a hard question.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Well, I think everybody should expect a
competent attorney, somebodythat's going to be well-versed,
somebody that's going toadvocate for their client.
You've got to keep your clientinformed, so I think they need
to expect some sort ofreasonable check-in with the
client.
Here's what's happening next.
The litigation legal systemtakes a long time and we're
(12:38):
governed by these court rules.
So sometimes things are 45 days, 60 days, but the average
person doesn't know that.
So being able to tell themahead of time hey, you have to
do this, it's doing this amountof time, this is the next step,
and then it's going to be we'regoing to go to mediation at this
point, and it'll be about threemonths from now.
And then kind of just staying incommunication with them.
(12:58):
I think they should expect that.
But they can't expect yourattorney to be your therapist.
They do that a lot, they want totalk to you about things that
I'm really ill-equipped to helpthem with.
I have a law degree and thenbusiness and finance degree, so
you know how to talk to yourkids about the divorce or when
(13:18):
certain issues are happeningwith your children.
I'm not the best resource, andthey want me to be.
They want me to be their go-tofor every issue, and so I send
them.
I'm not the best resource andthey want me to be.
They want me to be their go-tofor every issue, and so I send
them.
I'm like, okay, let's startengaging you a therapist, maybe
we get your kids in play therapyor something along those lines
to help.
Or, if we need to, even adivorce coach to help them go
through this, or co-parentingcoach, because those are the
(13:40):
better resources.
But you should expect yourattorney to have those resources
, because we have them in ourcommunity.
Your attorney should know that.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Okay, that's great.
Um, is there anything thatclients can do to have just like
a smoother divorce process,whether it's just navigating the
process or working with theirattorneys, like what would just
what would make it smoother?
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Yeah, let's see.
I would say consolidatingcommunication is key.
You don't want to call yourlawyer every day, you need to.
You need to take notes in youriPhone and then send them one
email because otherwise it getsvery expensive.
I appreciate you saying that.
Yeah, um, what else can they do?
(14:27):
I think you know they should becandid with the lawyer,
probably from the beginning, asto like hey, I'm really nervous
about this, I need to be keptinformed, those kinds of things
so the lawyer is aware that thisperson is okay.
You might be extra sensitive,um, um.
So gathering documents, makingsure things are organized, doing
(14:48):
that as best you can for yourattorney, saves your attorney
from having to dig through itand guess what it is.
Using those resources.
You know, when the lawyer saysyou need to get a counselor,
follow your lawyer's advice.
You're paying me an hourly rate, like, take it.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Yeah, you're just not saying that, just to say it,
right, yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
I mean, come on, so things like that, if you need to
get on antidepressants to getthrough it, do it Right.
Those kinds of things.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
I love that you say that, because I tell my clients
that too, going through adivorce, because some divorces
can take a long time, right, andmy experience has been that
before the legal divorce evenhappens, you know the emotional
divorce is happening, thepsychological divorce is
happening.
So you probably see people whoare already depressed when
(15:44):
they're starting legal stuffwith you.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
And if that?
Speaker 1 (15:47):
goes on for six months to a year.
I will often tell people thereis no shame in taking an
antidepressant to get throughthis terrible year of your life,
and when you come out on theother side and you can take
better care of yourself and amajority of the stress is over,
then you can go off of them.
This doesn't have to be alifelong relationship, but I
(16:09):
love that you're an advocateboth for therapy and for
medication, because I thinkpeople need to hear that there's
a lot of stigma around oh, I'mgoing to go on meds because I'm
going crazy.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
And that sometimes that's not enough.
I can say, like you know,having a solid support system is
so helpful, even if it's notfamily, if you have friends, if
not joining a local divorcesupport.
And I say that even as a lawyer, because sometimes I hate that,
because they'll go and they getadvice from other people about
well, this happened in my caseand you need to ask for this and
I'm like every case is a uniquesnowflake Stop.
(16:43):
But if you need that support,get it.
Right, because you got to haveit.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Yes.
So, rachel, I didn't prep youwith this question, but this is
going to be like kind of on thefly.
What do you like about thispart of your job?
Cause I know you do otheraspects of family law but I
often think like and I know whenI met you I thought this must
be so hard Um, you're helpingsomeone unwind their life right
(17:11):
Financially, emotionally,psychologically, their family
structure with their kids.
I know what that's liketherapeutically.
But I also know that clientsapproach me with different needs
during that time and I don'thave to worry about legal
financial custody, like I justhelp them have a better
relationship with their kidsduring the process.
(17:31):
But I look at you and I'm like,oh my goodness, she invests so
much.
Tell me, why do you do this?
I love helping people.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
I love it.
I love interacting with people.
I'm a people person.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Um.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
I love to see that transformation from someone when
they first meet with me andthey're scared, uncertain, you
know, crying.
Just everything in their lifehas been upheaved Right and they
don't know what's going tohappen.
And then, by the end of theprocess, I want them to feel
confident, empowered, like Ihave a budget I'm going to, I'm
going to live single and this isgoing to be fine and we've got
(18:08):
a parenting plan that's going towork for our kids and things
like that.
I want them to be satisfied andhappy with their life at the
end of the divorce.
I can't guarantee it, but it'salways my goal.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Right, I love that answer, so, okay, now I have a
follow-up question.
Okay, do you hear from clients?
Do you see clients years aftertheir divorce and see that
they're doing okay?
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Yeah, yeah, several, yes, some, even when we, if we
ever talk about collaborativedivorce, when we do, even, I'll
see the entire families andthey're all doing great and
that's wonderful yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
That's so good to hear because I again I know
clients.
When they're going throughdivorce.
It's hard to see the light atthe end of the tunnel right.
And a lot of times the way webuild up marriage in our society
, socially and morally andreligiously, is that this is
like almost like a death.
It's the worst thing that couldhappen to you, absolutely, and I
don't want to minimize orinvalidate that.
It isn't extremely painful.
(19:07):
I'm a child of divorce myself.
Like I know it's hard, but Ithink having that reassurance,
hearing from people you're,you're going to be okay, like
it's going to look different,right, and your definition of
okay might look different, but Ireally appreciate that you,
that you care, and that you youwant their lives to be great,
(19:29):
you know, after they get throughthis process.
Well, thank you.
Yeah, well, that is going toconclude our episode today with
one of the experts in ourcommunity and then, as far as
I'm concerned, in the state ofFlorida, um, on divorce, and
we're going to have Rachel backfor another episode where we're
going to talk about this new wayof approaching divorce called a
(19:50):
collaborative divorce, andRachel was the founder of a
collaborative group here inTallahassee and in the Florida
panhandle.
So stay tuned for the nextepisode.
Hi and welcome to today's episode of the Couple
Podcast, and I am so excitedbecause we have our very first
guest on the Couple Podcast.
She is my friend and someone Igreatly admire as a professional
woman in the community.
Her name is Rachel Borentrager,and Rachel is a divorce
(00:21):
attorney.
She's a Florida board-certifiedmarital and family law expert,
a Supreme Court certified familymediator and a collaborative
attorney.
That's a mouthful.
She founded the nonprofitCapital Collaborative Group and
brings over a decade oflitigation and mediation
experience to every case.
(00:42):
I'll be honest, I found Rachelyears ago on the internet and
also heard word of mouth throughsome shared clients that we had
, and I thought who is this girl?
She is awesome.
I want to take her to coffee, Iwant to meet her.
I thought, oh my gosh, she'sgoing to think I'm crazy, I'm
stalking her.
But we struck up a friendshipand we keep in touch here in
(01:02):
Tallahassee, florida.
Rachel invites me to meetingsthat she thinks would help me,
um, just be a better servant tothe community, and Rachel does
serve her community in so manyways.
She supports the arts.
Um, she's just an all aroundawesome gal.
So thanks for coming today,rachel.
So actually I'm going to haveRachel here for two episodes,
(01:23):
cause she has I couldn't squeezein all of everything she knows
into one episode.
But today's episode we're goingto focus just on your
perspective of what is happeningwith today's couples, because I
see couples in a different wayand I just thought it would be
neat for you to share yourexperience on when people are
(01:46):
coming to your office, whencouples are coming, mainly one
individual in the couple andthey're initiating divorce.
I wanted to kind of pull backthe veil because I think
sometimes when people listen tome as a therapist, they know,
okay, well, you see people whowant help, but you see like a
different population of people,people who may not have ever
(02:08):
gone to even therapy, right,yeah, yeah.
So I think you have a lot tosay there.
So I'm going to start you witha question here, rachel what is
the most common reason fordivorce that you're seeing and
there could be several, right,but seeing with couples right
now?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Yeah, I think, um, overall, it's easy to say
communication problems, theyjust don't stay on the same page
.
Um, more detailed, I'd say apower imbalance, where sometimes
I see an individual who theyfeel resentment towards their
(02:44):
apartment.
They feel like they're, um,maybe they're, uh, really
educated and really driven andreally ambitious and there are,
you know, a leader at work, butthen they're also managing the
household and also managing thechildren and they feel like
their other partner isn'tcontributing.
And so that builds up thatresentment and usually that
person ends up being like I'mdone and I want out.
(03:06):
I see that, but I see it aswell where even people that you
know their role is mainly in thehome and they're not working,
but then they get resentful tothe other person who is maybe
the breadwinner and they wantthat on their own.
They want that independence.
So I see this power imbalance.
That's one of them.
(03:31):
Sometimes you know, you just seepeople that grow apart instead
of growing together.
But most of it, to me, comesdown to communication.
They don't stay on the samepage.
They don't talk about futuregoals.
They don't talk about you know,when are we retiring?
What does our financial picturelook like?
How many kids are we having?
(03:51):
What's our parenting styles?
They don't have thoseconversations ahead of time, and
then they're not revisitingthose issues every year, so they
drift apart in where they standon those positions and then by
the time they come to me, eitherthey've gone to counseling and
it's failed, or they're not eveninterested in counseling.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Yeah, oh, that's.
That's a really great point andwe I preach that in therapy, we
say it on the podcast is thatyou said, revisiting those
things, yes, you have to havethose conversations up front.
Those are great to have in likepremarital counseling or just
pre-marriage conversations, butthen, yeah, but you got to keep
having them.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
That's important.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
That's why you know if you can treat marriage like a
business partnership, like ifyou were going to go into
business with this other person.
You would see annual financialstatements.
How is the business doingfinancially?
You would talk about what'shappening with the business next
year.
What's our long-term goals?
What are our short-term goals?
Like, you talk about thosethings and you would constantly
(04:52):
revisit it.
And you would also talk about,like hey, if this doesn't work
out?
Speaker 1 (04:56):
what does?
Speaker 2 (04:57):
dissolving the partnership look like Like
that's how you enter a business,and I personally think people
should be entering theirmarriage and treating their
marriage very similar to that.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Yeah, I love that, I love that model.
I do want to ask you because Ilove that you called it a power
imbalance and I think that whenpeople think about power, when,
with respect to couples, theythink about who's the boss,
right, like, but, or who has themost say but power is not just
about like who gives directionsor who makes the decisions.
(05:30):
It's also about who hasresources, right, yeah, so when
you were talking about someonehaving a job or you know, bring,
maybe it's, it's.
You know a social life, theyhave a more abundant social life
.
Or you know their family livesin town or whatever, they have
social support, like those areall parts of that power.
(05:50):
But it sounds like you'resaying having a career gives you
power in a relationship.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Oh, but don't worry.
I've also seen the resentmentof somebody that is very close
with their family and theirfamily is super engaged with the
kids and everything, and thenthe other spouse doesn't have a
lot of family.
And then they become resentfuleven of how much that other
parents, parents and family andextended family are involved.
So I've seen that too, rightRight.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
So then, rachel, are there like groups of people, or
a certain sex of people who arelike who initiates divorce more?
Speaker 2 (06:27):
And then tell me why and I know that that could look
different- Right, okay, well,let me preface this by saying
that, as a female attorney, Ithink I have more female clients
, right, I think women want tobe represented by a woman.
They want to have thatconnection, that somebody that
really gets them.
Uh, my law partner is myhusband.
(06:47):
I love that he has most of themale clients.
They gravitate to him.
So I'm kind of I recognize thatlike my viewpoint is biased
because I have so many femaleclients, but I think that
females are more likely toinitiate divorce than men.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Yeah, and that's what the data has shown for a long
time, that women are more likelyto initiate, but that that's
actually increased as women havemore access to finances, right?
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Yeah, and I see women .
So usually when they come to meand they're initiating, it's
either they're done, they feellike they've given all they can
and either counseling isn'tworking, changes aren't
happening whatever they're donewith the relationship, or
they're coming to me becausethey feel like their spouse is
either cheating or they're nolonger into it and they want to
(07:39):
get ahead of the divorce process.
So that's usually what I seewant to get ahead of the divorce
process.
So that's usually what I see.
Um, in fact, I was thinking,most of the male clients that I
represent are not the ones thatinitiated the divorce.
Um, when I have a male clientthat's initiated the divorce,
it's almost usually infidelitybased.
So the his spouse cheated.
(07:59):
No, he has cheated and alreadymoved on.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Oh wow, spouse cheated.
No, he has cheated, and alreadymoved on.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Oh wow, see, that's not what I would have guessed.
See, yeah, no, I don't see alot of, occasionally, female
infidelity but, that's not thedriving thing that I see at all.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Okay, what about and I'm curious cause I've heard
about this on other social mediathe graying of divorce, where
they're talking about age groupsof people getting divorced.
So, with what you're seeing, atleast in your practice, what's
like the kind of most popularage group of people getting
divorced?
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Or could you not?
Speaker 2 (08:37):
parcel it out that way, I'd probably say in their
40s, that's probably the biggestarea.
I would say.
I mean, yes, we've seen moreseniors getting divorced, but I
don't think that that is really.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
I think it's still that middle age group, yeah, and
that's when you see people havebeen married for a while.
Yep, they've raised their kids,they have a career.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
They don raised their kids.
They have a career, yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
They don't have infants, they have a solid
career and my perspective onthat is it's been long enough,
they've tried hard enough andthey go.
I'll be okay.
Right, I have some support.
Yeah, I've got my job.
That's going to stay the same,and I've tried.
The kids are older.
That's going to stay the same,and I've tried.
The kids are older.
They're not going to bedevastated and we'll be okay.
(09:25):
Yeah, exactly.
Oh, my goodness.
So when you listen to yourclients I know that because I've
heard clients talk about youand how they talk to you and I
know you as a person, so I knowyou're not just talking about
laws and rules and formulas.
I know they vent to you and, um, so do you ever have your own
(09:48):
ideas of like?
Could they have prevented this?
Is there stuff couples shouldbe doing to prevent getting
there?
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Oh, absolutely yeah, I think a lot of times when
people come to me I think, oh,y'all should have seen a
therapist months ago.
If you just talk to anybody,y'all could get on the same page
, but you're not there.
Oh, I have clients that theyare actively divorcing now and
I'm still like could they?
Could they still reconcile?
I think they could if they hadenough encouragement and support
(10:16):
and they were willing to try.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
You tell you've told me this theory you have about
people still being in love.
What's the thing that you cantell you're like, oh they're
still in love.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Oh yeah, I say they love each other so much when
they are constantly fightingconstant high conflict.
Everything's a dispute,everything, yeah.
So I'm like oh, they're stillvery much in love, I can tell.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Right, Because and I'll see that in in therapy
because when couples don't fightor when one person is just
totally apathetic, indifference.
So the opposite of love isn'thate, it's indifference.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Right.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
And so when couples don't fight, I'm like, oh,
they're in trouble, right, likethis is bad news because one or
both have checked out.
But when they're still fighting, I'm like, yes, like they still
matter to each other.
They still can be hurt by theother person, and you're not
hurt by someone you don't careabout right, exactly.
You're hurt by someone you careabout.
(11:10):
So I love your theory aboutwhen those couples are just at
each other, you're like they'reprobably still in love.
They love each other so much,right?
Oh, my goodness, that must behard too, because I know what
it's like to hope for people towork things out, but for you to
see that too, you might be like,oh, could you?
Speaker 2 (11:27):
just give it one last shot.
Yeah yeah, it can be reallyfrustrating.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
So what should people divorcing expect from their
divorce attorneys?
Because I feel like as atherapist, I end up doing some
education to my clients, not notlegal advice.
Right, I'm very careful aboutthat, but sometimes there'll be
like my attorney's not gettingback to me or like they don't
(11:53):
seem to care about like what'sgoing on with my kids and I'm
just like, but some of that isnot their role.
So, like, what do you wantpeople to know?
Especially, people entering indivorce are really scared.
A lot of times.
They haven't done that before,they've never thought about it.
What should they be expectingfrom divorce attorneys?
That's a hard question.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Well, I think everybody should expect a
competent attorney, somebodythat's going to be well-versed,
somebody that's going toadvocate for their client.
You've got to keep your clientinformed, so I think they need
to expect some sort ofreasonable check-in with the
client.
Here's what's happening next.
The litigation legal systemtakes a long time and we're
(12:38):
governed by these court rules.
So sometimes things are 45 days, 60 days, but the average
person doesn't know that.
So being able to tell themahead of time hey, you have to
do this, it's doing this amountof time, this is the next step,
and then it's going to be we'regoing to go to mediation at this
point, and it'll be about threemonths from now.
And then kind of just staying incommunication with them.
(12:58):
I think they should expect that.
But they can't expect yourattorney to be your therapist.
They do that a lot, they want totalk to you about things that
I'm really ill-equipped to helpthem with.
I have a law degree and thenbusiness and finance degree, so
you know how to talk to yourkids about the divorce or when
(13:18):
certain issues are happeningwith your children.
I'm not the best resource, andthey want me to be.
They want me to be their go-tofor every issue, and so I send
them.
I'm not the best resource andthey want me to be.
They want me to be their go-tofor every issue, and so I send
them.
I'm like, okay, let's startengaging you a therapist, maybe
we get your kids in play therapyor something along those lines
to help.
Or, if we need to, even adivorce coach to help them go
through this, or co-parentingcoach, because those are the
(13:40):
better resources.
But you should expect yourattorney to have those resources
, because we have them in ourcommunity.
Your attorney should know that.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Okay, that's great.
Um, is there anything thatclients can do to have just like
a smoother divorce process,whether it's just navigating the
process or working with theirattorneys, like what would just
what would make it smoother?
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Yeah, let's see.
I would say consolidatingcommunication is key.
You don't want to call yourlawyer every day, you need to.
You need to take notes in youriPhone and then send them one
email because otherwise it getsvery expensive.
I appreciate you saying that.
Yeah, um, what else can they do?
(14:27):
I think you know they should becandid with the lawyer,
probably from the beginning, asto like hey, I'm really nervous
about this, I need to be keptinformed, those kinds of things
so the lawyer is aware that thisperson is okay.
You might be extra sensitive,um, um.
So gathering documents, makingsure things are organized, doing
(14:48):
that as best you can for yourattorney, saves your attorney
from having to dig through itand guess what it is.
Using those resources.
You know, when the lawyer saysyou need to get a counselor,
follow your lawyer's advice.
You're paying me an hourly rate, like, take it.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Yeah, you're just not saying that, just to say it,
right, yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
I mean, come on, so things like that, if you need to
get on antidepressants to getthrough it, do it Right.
Those kinds of things.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
I love that you say that, because I tell my clients
that too, going through adivorce, because some divorces
can take a long time, right, andmy experience has been that
before the legal divorce evenhappens, you know the emotional
divorce is happening, thepsychological divorce is
happening.
So you probably see people whoare already depressed when
(15:44):
they're starting legal stuffwith you.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
And if that?
Speaker 1 (15:47):
goes on for six months to a year.
I will often tell people thereis no shame in taking an
antidepressant to get throughthis terrible year of your life,
and when you come out on theother side and you can take
better care of yourself and amajority of the stress is over,
then you can go off of them.
This doesn't have to be alifelong relationship, but I
(16:09):
love that you're an advocateboth for therapy and for
medication, because I thinkpeople need to hear that there's
a lot of stigma around oh, I'mgoing to go on meds because I'm
going crazy.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
And that sometimes that's not enough.
I can say, like you know,having a solid support system is
so helpful, even if it's notfamily, if you have friends, if
not joining a local divorcesupport.
And I say that even as a lawyer, because sometimes I hate that,
because they'll go and they getadvice from other people about
well, this happened in my caseand you need to ask for this and
I'm like every case is a uniquesnowflake Stop.
(16:43):
But if you need that support,get it.
Right, because you got to haveit.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Yes.
So, rachel, I didn't prep youwith this question, but this is
going to be like kind of on thefly.
What do you like about thispart of your job?
Cause I know you do otheraspects of family law but I
often think like and I know whenI met you I thought this must
be so hard Um, you're helpingsomeone unwind their life right
(17:11):
Financially, emotionally,psychologically, their family
structure with their kids.
I know what that's liketherapeutically.
But I also know that clientsapproach me with different needs
during that time and I don'thave to worry about legal
financial custody, like I justhelp them have a better
relationship with their kidsduring the process.
(17:31):
But I look at you and I'm like,oh my goodness, she invests so
much.
Tell me, why do you do this?
I love helping people.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
I love it.
I love interacting with people.
I'm a people person.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Um.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
I love to see that transformation from someone when
they first meet with me andthey're scared, uncertain, you
know, crying.
Just everything in their lifehas been upheaved Right and they
don't know what's going tohappen.
And then, by the end of theprocess, I want them to feel
confident, empowered, like Ihave a budget I'm going to, I'm
going to live single and this isgoing to be fine and we've got
(18:08):
a parenting plan that's going towork for our kids and things
like that.
I want them to be satisfied andhappy with their life at the
end of the divorce.
I can't guarantee it, but it'salways my goal.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Right, I love that answer, so, okay, now I have a
follow-up question.
Okay, do you hear from clients?
Do you see clients years aftertheir divorce and see that
they're doing okay?
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Yeah, yeah, several, yes, some, even when we, if we
ever talk about collaborativedivorce, when we do, even, I'll
see the entire families andthey're all doing great and
that's wonderful yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
That's so good to hear because I again I know
clients.
When they're going throughdivorce.
It's hard to see the light atthe end of the tunnel right.
And a lot of times the way webuild up marriage in our society
, socially and morally andreligiously, is that this is
like almost like a death.
It's the worst thing that couldhappen to you, absolutely, and I
don't want to minimize orinvalidate that.
It isn't extremely painful.
(19:07):
I'm a child of divorce myself.
Like I know it's hard, but Ithink having that reassurance,
hearing from people you're,you're going to be okay, like
it's going to look different,right, and your definition of
okay might look different, but Ireally appreciate that you,
that you care, and that you youwant their lives to be great,
(19:29):
you know, after they get throughthis process.
Well, thank you.
Yeah, well, that is going toconclude our episode today with
one of the experts in ourcommunity and then, as far as
I'm concerned, in the state ofFlorida, um, on divorce, and
we're going to have Rachel backfor another episode where we're
going to talk about this new wayof approaching divorce called a
(19:50):
collaborative divorce, andRachel was the founder of a
collaborative group here inTallahassee and in the Florida
panhandle.
So stay tuned for the nextepisode.
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