April 9, 2025 • 26 mins
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Season 1 Episode 11: Work, Family, and the Impossible Balance
Finding harmony between work and family life might be the ultimate challenge for modern relationships. As therapists who specialize in couples counseling, we've observed how the delicate balance of careers, household responsibilities, and childcare creates unique tensions that can either strengthen or strain partnerships.
The perpetual tug-of-war many couples experience isn't just in your imagination—it's a documented phenomenon called work-family conflict. That guilt you feel while working (wishing you could attend your child's school event) and the distraction you experience during family time (mentally composing work emails) creates a sense that you're failing at both roles simultaneously. We validate this struggle and give it a proper name, along with other key concepts like spillover, where workplace stress follows you home, affecting your interactions with loved ones.
Women especially face compounding pressures through what researchers call the "motherhood penalty"—the documented negative impact on lifetime earnings when scaling back careers for family responsibilities. This economic reality, combined with the "second shift" of household duties that follows a full workday, creates pressure points in even the strongest relationships.
Perhaps most insidious is the invisible "mental load"—that constant background processing of family needs, schedules, and household management that one partner (typically women in heterosexual relationships) carries disproportionately. Understanding the distinction between necessary mental load and self-imposed expectations can transform how couples navigate these challenges.
This episode offers more than just validation of your experience—it provides the language to have meaningful conversations with your partner about these dynamics. We invite you to use these concepts as starting points: How does work-family conflict manifest in your relationship? Who carries the mental load? What expectations might be self-imposed rather than necessary?
Dr. Jenna and Dr. Nari are the Licensed Marriage and Family Therapists behind the Coupled Podcast. They both have private practices where they work with individuals, couples, and families in Florida. The two are ready to shake up the world of couples therapy and want to extend resources beyond the couples they see in their private practices.
If you like this episode and want to know more about taking the next step to improve your communication, connection, and intimacy, head over to our websites to learn more about our Staying Coupled and Getting Coupled courses. These online courses give you the flexibility to improve your relationship from the comfort and convenience of your home. The Staying Coupled course is for couples who want to do the work to connect, communicate, and have the healthiest relationship possible. The Getting Coupled course is for premarital couples wanting to learn the essentials for a successful marriage. Topics in both courses include the main issues couples face:
- Communication
- Family Boundaries
- Family Finances
- Sex
- Family Planning
- Division of Labor
- Couple Activities
For more information, visit drjennascott.com/courses or drnarijeter.com/courses
Disclaimer: This podcast is not a substitute for therapy. If you’re struggling, we encourage you to seek support from a licensed therapist in your state. Our relationship suggestions and content may not be applicable or advised for relationships with intimate partner violence (IPV).
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Coupled Podcast with Dr Jenna
and Dr Nari.
We're so happy you're here.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
We're licensed marriage and family therapists
who work with couples in privatepractice.
On this show, you'll get thevery best and proven information
based on our decades ofexperience as therapists.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Even though we have 12 years of graduate school
between us.
We also know how to keep itreal as friends, wives and
mothers.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Relationships are complicated and we're here to
break it down.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Hey, welcome to the Coupled Podcast with Dr Nari and
Dr.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Jenna.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
In today's episode, we are going to talk about work
and the family, and this is ahot topic with couples,
especially because, more thanever, you typically have two
people working in therelationship.
And when we talk about work,we're talking about paid work
outside the home, but we're alsotalking about housework in the
(00:58):
home and also the work ofraising children.
So we in a previous podcast,covered housework and some of
the child care things, but wereally haven't talked about paid
work and basically howemployment affects the quality
and satisfaction peopleexperience in relationships.
(01:20):
So this is going to be atwo-part episode.
In part one, we're going tojust focus on really introducing
you to some of the differentterms that we talk about as
therapists and family therapy,so that maybe you can start
understanding oh, how do thesethings actually affect us in our
relationships?
Also, we're going to give yousome common examples to let you
(01:42):
know that you are not alone.
We want you to feel validatedand we want you to feel heard
and seen.
So this is a passion area forJenna as well, and so I'm going
to let her take it away andstart introducing this topic.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Yeah, so, as Nari said, like most parents are
working outside of the home.
We know not all parents areworking outside of the home, so
we want to speak to both typesof families, but a lot of people
who are working outside of thehome are also raising children
together and kids have a lot ofneeds extracurriculars,
(02:18):
appointments Can we just take amoment and talk about how many
school events there are?
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Yes, a lot of school events, I can't keep track.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
The dress-up days, the come-to-field day, the
go-to-the Muffins with mom,donuts with dad, mystery reader,
and part of me absolutelyadores all of this family
involvement, school communityit's great.
I also think back, though, towhen I was in elementary school
in the 90s, and we didn't haveall of these and my mom did not
(02:52):
work outside of the home.
So I'm like you know, a lot ofparents nowadays are feeling the
squeeze, and so I do like tointroduce some of these terms,
because when I do in session andexplain them and common
examples of them, I think peoplereally feel heard and seen.
So one of the terms that we usein family therapy is called
(03:15):
role conflict or work familyconflict, and this is when
meeting the demands of oneinstitution conflicts with
meeting the competing demands ofanother.
So an example might be whenyour child's speech therapy
appointment falls during thework day, when you have a
competing meeting, and what Iwill say is parents in therapy
(03:39):
often lament that there is thisconstant tug of war, like when
you are a parent who worksoutside of the home and you are
working, you often feel guiltthat you're not doing more for
your kids, and then, when you'rewith your kids, feeling like I
need to be checking emails or Ineed to be plugged into work and
that it's just this constanttug.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Yeah, I agree with that, Jenna.
It's like a recipe for I mean,failure almost.
You feel like all the timeyou're failing.
I don't know if you rememberthat movie a long time ago,
marley and Me with JenniferAniston, and it was after they
had one of their children, andyou could tell that they were
(04:19):
really stressed and they bothwere, I think, in journalism and
she basically told her you know, husband, in the movie she's
like when I'm here, I want to bethere.
When I'm there, I want to behere, and I like that resonated
with me so much.
And so then she was like I,she's like I basically have to
take one thing away.
(04:40):
And that's when she made thedecision to leave her career.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Yeah, well, some parents, I think they just don't
feel like they're thriving inany like one area.
And I will say, you know, Ifeel like I have a lot of
personal examples with today'stopic and I will say my daughter
just started kindergarten thisyear.
I think a lot of times I lookback on, like my own experience
(05:03):
in grade school and I know fieldtrips when I was growing up.
It was like two parentsvolunteered to chaperone.
There were not, you know, everyparent was not on the field
trip and they invited parents tomy daughter's field trip and I
decided not to go.
I didn't.
It really didn't cross my mindthat like, oh, I'm going to take
(05:23):
off of seeing clients to go tothis field trip.
But I went to pick up mydaughter from school that day
and she was like, why were younot at the field trip?
You were the only mommy not atthe field trip.
I was just surrounded bymommies and I just experienced
this like crippling guilt inthat moment.
But I mean, I think it speaksto what a lot of parents feel.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Oh, absolutely, jenna , speaking in generational
differences.
When I went to kindergarten inthe 80s, we had half day
kindergarten, like am or pmkindergarten, and so even
kindergarten has that is wildwhere you know your kids are now
.
Yes, spending a full day atschool.
There are all these activities.
(06:07):
There are all these academicresponsibilities, like
kindergartners have homework nowright, it's wild, I know there
there are so many changes.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Another concept that I use a lot with families is
spillover.
So this is when work situationsit can be both good or bad
impact family interaction.
So an example of this might bethat your boss confronts you at
work about performance and thenthis in turn impacts your
interactions with your familymembers.
(06:37):
And sometimes I hear couplescomplain about like maybe one
person is in a job or a rolethat they're like deeply
dissatisfied with or reallyunhappy, and they can like feel
that energy come in at the endof the day when they come home
and that, like work stress isspilling over into the house and
(06:59):
really affecting like theenergy of the whole family.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Right, and I think, jenna, that can also play out in
different ways.
For example, I'm not like agrumpy person when I come home.
I really try to use my like 20to 25 minute drive to decompress
, but I'm just really tired.
I think I'm very emotionallytired when I get home and I'm
aware of that and I have toremind myself no, I have to go
(07:24):
home, I have to be a mom, I haveto attune to what my family so,
it's not like this.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
You know, when I'm done with my clients, I know I'm
done for the day, but I havefatigue, right, well, and I do
think that's a benefit of doingclinical work, because I
realized that I get to seeclients write some case notes
and leave work at work.
But I know, when I was inacademia, like one of the
reasons I left academia wasbecause I felt like I had this
(07:52):
like stress and spillover.
And actually one night I wasgiving my daughter a bath and I
know I had like a scowl on myface and she was like mommy,
like why are you so upset?
And it was because I wasthinking about work and at the
time there was a lot going on inour department.
Nari was was there and livedthrough it too, and I'm sure we
(08:12):
could have a whole podcast on onthat, but we won't.
But you know, my daughter waspicking up on some of that work
stress that I was feeling in themoment and I wasn't even
working at the time.
It was just like a work thoughtpopped in my head and she could
.
She could see that shift and Iguess part of that is just, you
know, being the daughter of atherapist, you can read others
(08:35):
emotions quite, quite well.
So one of the other things thattends to happen is called the
motherhood penalty, and this ismotherhood has a significant
negative impact on female incomeover the lifetime, and that's
often because women are the onesto limit their labor force
participation to care forchildren and family members, and
(08:58):
the reason they do this isbecause women earn 79% on
average of what men earn.
So an example of this would bea mother moving from full-time
work to part-time work andlosing salary and benefits.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Yeah, jenna, I can attest to that, because when my
kids were little I took fouryears off of clinical work.
I wanted more flexible work andthis was before COVID, before
really telehealth took off.
So I was like I don't want tobe in an office seeing clients.
So I did some flexibleconsulting and online work where
(09:36):
I could do it while kids werenapping and really honestly,
after four years I questionedlike will I ever go back to
therapy?
Because it had been so long.
And had it not been for theprompting of a friend who had a
practice who said just come forlike one or two hours a week,
(09:56):
you know, we'll do all the workfor you, we'll gather clients
for you, just show up and youknow like you're such a great
therapist it was such a nicecompliment.
But I really wrestled withtaking even one to two hours a
week away from my kids.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Right, yeah, that's such a challenge and I think,
like making that decision formoms and for families it is.
It's challenging and that's.
You know, one of the reasons Ileft academia is just because my
clinical work I do get to setmy own schedule now and I do
think my whole family reallybenefits from that and it's hard
(10:30):
to put like a price tag on thattoo.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
I want to take a minute and just give a huge
validation to parents who haveto work situation.
To parents who have to work,you know an eight to five job
because I have not had to dothat in a very, very long time
and I can set my hours.
I can say, you know I'm goingto be done at four.
But those parents who have toget their kids up and you know
(10:57):
have them at school or daycareat seven something in the
morning and then they got tofight the traffic on the way
home and you're picking up kidsat like almost six o'clock at
night and you are doing somehard work.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
That credit and validation for how hard that is,
and I know there are lots ofparents who are listening, who
do shift work, who are in likefirst responders field or
medical field.
You stay up all night.
You do some amazing things, andso I just want to say to stop
and take a minute to remindyourself that parenting is not
easy, working is not easy,marriage is not easy.
(11:32):
Those things in isolation arenot easy, but when then you
combine them all, you really gotto give yourself a lot of grace
.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
Right.
We certainly want to validatethe struggles there and say that
, like we acknowledge all of thechallenges that come along with
those roles.
Let's also talk about unpaidfamily work, because this is an
area when we say unpaid familywork, we mean caring for
(11:59):
dependent family members.
So examples are stay at homeparents.
Also, women tend to take onmore of the caregiving for their
aging parents as well, and Ihave.
I just want to say like I havethe utmost respect for stay at
home moms.
I think really anybody in thatcaregiving role.
I always say like I wish I couldswap the salaries of um, of
(12:24):
athletes, with caregiving folks,like people who work with, like
vulnerable populations, becauseit is hard work, um, and we
don't give them enough respectand, I think, value and that's
often reflected in the salariesof those.
So I know when my kids were indaycare I was like during COVID
(12:50):
they were looking to hiresomebody and I was trying to
help get students internshipsand I remember talking to one of
the directors and saying youknow, I'd like to help you all
try and find some, some help,and she had said like this rate
starts at $10 an hour, which islike wild to me, like when you
look at how much work a daycareemployee is doing it, it's wild.
(13:12):
Also, parents who are staying athome, like I don't think we
value like that work and howhard that job and role is either
.
But I will say I have theutmost respect for anybody who
is in that that caregiving roleand I, what I observe at my kids
school is that a lot of thestay at home mothers and fathers
(13:35):
we know that there are stay athome fathers as well are picking
up the slack of some of theworking moms.
Like okay, maybe I know thatmuffins for mom is coming up, so
I block off my client'sschedule, but then I'm not the
one decorating the classroom ordoing those other things that
they are doing.
So yes, I do think we need togive more respect and value to
(13:58):
that unpaid family work and ifyou do have a spouse or partner
who is doing some of that worklike I would strongly encourage
you to voice that appreciationfor what they do.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Absolutely, jenna, and I'm going to tell on myself
a little bit here.
I mean, when I kind of did moreflexible work from home and
then got back outside the home,I realized there were some
benefits to like my mentalhealth and my self-esteem to
working outside the home.
And so I mean, some of it waslike a like a personal choice of
(14:31):
like this makes me feel goodabout myself, and so I say all
that to say is like I don't knowif I could have stayed at home
full time with my kids untilthey all reached elementary
school.
I think there was a part of methat had to be really honest
with my fantasy of what stay athome moming looked like and the
reality of it, and I justrealized that I had different
(14:55):
desires and needs that weren'tbeing fulfilled by staying home
with my kids all the time,weren't being fulfilled by
staying home with my kids allthe time.
And so and there's nothingwrong with that but I also, like
again, I realized that womenwho stay at home by choice or
you know other reasons, they aremaking a huge sacrifice.
(15:15):
And fathers too, again, wedon't.
We, we know that there are lotsof fathers who choose to stay
home and raise their kids, butyou know, it is a huge sacrifice
and it does not deserve to gounnoticed.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Right, yeah, absolutely.
Another term the second shift.
So this is when employedparents put in a second shift of
unpaid work, that usuallyamounts to an extra month of
work each year.
So an example of this is youcome home from work and, like
Nari said, we're often tired,some of us maybe a little grumpy
too, and then the kids arethere.
(15:50):
The dishes cleaning, laundry,meal prep, yard work all of
those things still need to bedone.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Yes, absolutely Like I.
I mean at this point, jenna,like I wake up in the morning, I
throw in a load of laundry, Ihead to the gym, you know, and
then come back and like doingbreakfast dishes and packing
lunches and my husband gets thekids to school, and then you
work all day and you come homeand you're like, okay, like I
gotta fold that laundry that Istarted this morning right.
(16:19):
It just it really never ends Um.
And if it's not actual physicallabor, a lot of times for
parents it's also mental labor.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Yeah, the emotional labor.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Yeah, what are the kids have coming up?
Or you know, I try to check inwith my kids and I'm like, how
was your day?
And sometimes my kids are likeI had a terrible day and I'm
like, okay, we need to talkabout this, you know.
So there is a lot that goes on.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
And, yeah, when you come home, yeah, and I will say,
even couples who don't havekids still experience this.
You know, they might work afull day and they're still all
the housework.
So even if you remove kids fromthe equation, there's still a
lot to do to maintain ahousehold.
And so I think that's where wesee some of the conflict that
(17:07):
comes in with partners as well.
Sometimes I feel like partnerslike well, I'm more tired than
you because I did this today orI saw that.
And I also think that this iswhy so many people are
gravitating to some of thatremote work, because when you
work from home, in betweenmeetings, you might be able to
throw a load of laundry into thewasher, whereas, like when
(17:30):
you're working outside of thehome, you come home to
everything that was left there.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Oh, I absolutely agree.
I talked to a lot of coupleswhere one of the partners stays
home and they do have that timeto.
Yeah, on their lunch breakthey'll do you know, several
things around the house.
And when I ask them, oh, wouldyou ever go back to in-person
work?
A lot of times they're like no.
I like the flexibility of beinghome.
It gives our family theopportunity to not feel like
(17:59):
we're playing catch up all thetime because there's one partner
home right and keeping thewheels turning.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Yeah, exactly, and you know before I mentioned like
I feel blessed in that I get tosee clients and leave work at
work.
But one of the like pitfalls ofthat is that like we have to be
fully present with our clientsto see.
You know, I can't like take aphone call and be folding
laundry while I'm seeing clientsso I can't multitask where it's
like some of the other jobs.
(18:25):
Like I feel like some familieswouldn't be able to function as
they do without somebody beingremote and being able to do some
of that work.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Right, this last concept we're going to talk
about in this episode, jenna, itis a hot topic.
I'm hearing about it so muchwith my couples, so, and we, we
kind of alluded to it earlier.
But can you tell us what is themental load?
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Yeah, and I know we've touched on this in
previous episodes, but you'regoing to hear us continue to
talk about it because it doescome up so much in in our
sessions with couples.
This is the worry work.
So this is a constant thrumming, low level anxiety over the
health and wellbeing of yourfamily members.
So it's the thoughts like we'realmost out of milk.
(19:11):
Who's going to go to the store?
Did I run the dishwasher?
Are there diapers and wipes inthe diaper bag?
I forgot that tomorrow ispirate day and we've got to
somehow throw together a costume.
I will also throw myself underthe bus here because we have
show and tell every Friday and Ithink I have missed 80% of
(19:34):
those show and tell days.
I will have in my mind, likethis Friday we've got to do X, y
, Z and for the life of me Icannot remember to do it.
So sometimes, like we view ourtherapists as these, like
perfect people and I'm just hereto say that I'm not the perfect
parent and, despite holdingmuch of the mental load, I do
forget quite a bit.
(19:55):
So, yes, but this takes up alot of space and what we see too
is that women tend to hold moreof the mental load than male
partners in heterosexualrelationships.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Right.
I was going to add that thatwhen I'm looking at couples, a
lot of times it's women who arecomplaining more about the
mental load.
I will say for our femalelisteners, I've had to work on
myself with a little perspectiveshift on this, which is, how
much of the mental load am Iputting on myself?
(20:31):
And I want to give you a coupleexamples.
You know, at Christmas andJenna knows I love Christmas I
have two Christmas trees.
I would have more if I wasallowed for it.
I have some mini ones, right,but two big ones and I, you know
, want to give gifts for all myfriends.
And you know, like make sureyou know all the parties have
(20:53):
the right friends.
And you know, like make sureyou know all the parties have
the right.
You know activities and all thethings, the teachers,
everything.
But I get really stressed outaround that time.
And also one of my kiddos has abirthday around Christmas.
So then there's an added layer.
My husband does not care if Ido any of that.
Does that make sense.
Like he would not look at meand say Nari, you are a terrible
(21:15):
wife and mom for not doing allthese activities.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Gift giving is not his primary love language, so he
does not care.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
So to some degree that is my self-imposed mental
load, and I think again withlike pirate day or things like
that, like I do think that it'simportant for couples to be able
to identify what is the regularmental load of like operating
and running our family and thenwhat is the mental load we take
(21:46):
on is like a preference, right,and to be able to separate out
those two things, because then Ithink, if not, what you can end
up doing is getting veryresentful that your partner
doesn't care about everythingthat you care about.
But that's, that's normal, yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
You've got to check yourself though too, and I also
think you know I've had torealize like I'm not going to
miss another field trip, likeI've put that on myself and I
don't want to miss another fieldtrip, but like there are things
that like okay, I'm missingshow and tell on Fridays and
like maybe that's okay.
Some of you all might actuallybe horrified.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
I'm not judging you, Jenna.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
It's okay, judge away , but I am allowing myself to
sleep at night, knowing that I'mmissing much of the show and
tell Fridays.
But like you have to kind ofprioritize, like what is
important work-wise andfamily-wise and what can I maybe
let go of a little bit and givemyself a little bit of a break
on.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
Yeah, that's a great reframe, Jenna.
I do the same thing, like I'mnot going to go to every class
party that my kids have, butwhen they send that signup list
out, I'm buying like all thesnacks, right.
And I'm going to make sure theyget there, because I don't ever
want the teachers to feel likethey're having to come out of
pocket financially for our kidsto have this really fun party.
(23:06):
So, I'm like I may not be ableto be there for the party, but
the party items will be there.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Yeah, like how am I going to show up in my kid's
life and like you know what aremy priorities there as well?
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Right?
Well, like we said earlier,there's going to be a part two
to this, so we're going to stopthere for today, but again, we
covered some of the basic termsthat we see in couples about the
balance between work outsidethe home and work inside the
home.
So these are good talkingpoints that you could have with
(23:40):
your partner.
For example, do you feel likewe have work family conflict?
Is there spillover?
Coming home from work, you canmaybe talk with your partner
about your future career.
Do you feel like there's goingto be a penalty to your career
because you've chosen to be amother?
How do we look at unpaid familywork?
(24:01):
You know, do we, do we value it?
Do we feel valued in the unpaidfamily work that we do?
And you know also what ismental load and you know what.
What load do we really feellike we have to agree on is fair
?
And then, what do we have totake a step back from and say,
well, these are some of ourpreferences and these are not
(24:21):
what we expect from each other,but we like to do that, you know
we feel like really benefit ourfamily.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Well, next time, when you tune in to our part two of
work in the family, we're goingto be talking about common
conflicts when it comes tocouples around work and we're
going to be giving you some ofour favorite tips for couples.
Stay tuned.
Welcome to the Coupled Podcast with Dr Jenna
and Dr Nari.
We're so happy you're here.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
We're licensed marriage and family therapists
who work with couples in privatepractice.
On this show, you'll get thevery best and proven information
based on our decades ofexperience as therapists.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Even though we have 12 years of graduate school
between us.
We also know how to keep itreal as friends, wives and
mothers.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Relationships are complicated and we're here to
break it down.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Hey, welcome to the Coupled Podcast with Dr Nari and
Dr.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Jenna.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
In today's episode, we are going to talk about work
and the family, and this is ahot topic with couples,
especially because, more thanever, you typically have two
people working in therelationship.
And when we talk about work,we're talking about paid work
outside the home, but we're alsotalking about housework in the
(00:58):
home and also the work ofraising children.
So we in a previous podcast,covered housework and some of
the child care things, but wereally haven't talked about paid
work and basically howemployment affects the quality
and satisfaction peopleexperience in relationships.
(01:20):
So this is going to be atwo-part episode.
In part one, we're going tojust focus on really introducing
you to some of the differentterms that we talk about as
therapists and family therapy,so that maybe you can start
understanding oh, how do thesethings actually affect us in our
relationships?
Also, we're going to give yousome common examples to let you
(01:42):
know that you are not alone.
We want you to feel validatedand we want you to feel heard
and seen.
So this is a passion area forJenna as well, and so I'm going
to let her take it away andstart introducing this topic.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Yeah, so, as Nari said, like most parents are
working outside of the home.
We know not all parents areworking outside of the home, so
we want to speak to both typesof families, but a lot of people
who are working outside of thehome are also raising children
together and kids have a lot ofneeds extracurriculars,
(02:18):
appointments Can we just take amoment and talk about how many
school events there are?
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Yes, a lot of school events, I can't keep track.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
The dress-up days, the come-to-field day, the
go-to-the Muffins with mom,donuts with dad, mystery reader,
and part of me absolutelyadores all of this family
involvement, school communityit's great.
I also think back, though, towhen I was in elementary school
in the 90s, and we didn't haveall of these and my mom did not
(02:52):
work outside of the home.
So I'm like you know, a lot ofparents nowadays are feeling the
squeeze, and so I do like tointroduce some of these terms,
because when I do in session andexplain them and common
examples of them, I think peoplereally feel heard and seen.
So one of the terms that we usein family therapy is called
(03:15):
role conflict or work familyconflict, and this is when
meeting the demands of oneinstitution conflicts with
meeting the competing demands ofanother.
So an example might be whenyour child's speech therapy
appointment falls during thework day, when you have a
competing meeting, and what Iwill say is parents in therapy
(03:39):
often lament that there is thisconstant tug of war, like when
you are a parent who worksoutside of the home and you are
working, you often feel guiltthat you're not doing more for
your kids, and then, when you'rewith your kids, feeling like I
need to be checking emails or Ineed to be plugged into work and
that it's just this constanttug.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Yeah, I agree with that, Jenna.
It's like a recipe for I mean,failure almost.
You feel like all the timeyou're failing.
I don't know if you rememberthat movie a long time ago,
marley and Me with JenniferAniston, and it was after they
had one of their children, andyou could tell that they were
(04:19):
really stressed and they bothwere, I think, in journalism and
she basically told her you know, husband, in the movie she's
like when I'm here, I want to bethere.
When I'm there, I want to behere, and I like that resonated
with me so much.
And so then she was like I,she's like I basically have to
take one thing away.
(04:40):
And that's when she made thedecision to leave her career.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Yeah, well, some parents, I think they just don't
feel like they're thriving inany like one area.
And I will say, you know, Ifeel like I have a lot of
personal examples with today'stopic and I will say my daughter
just started kindergarten thisyear.
I think a lot of times I lookback on, like my own experience
(05:03):
in grade school and I know fieldtrips when I was growing up.
It was like two parentsvolunteered to chaperone.
There were not, you know, everyparent was not on the field
trip and they invited parents tomy daughter's field trip and I
decided not to go.
I didn't.
It really didn't cross my mindthat like, oh, I'm going to take
(05:23):
off of seeing clients to go tothis field trip.
But I went to pick up mydaughter from school that day
and she was like, why were younot at the field trip?
You were the only mommy not atthe field trip.
I was just surrounded bymommies and I just experienced
this like crippling guilt inthat moment.
But I mean, I think it speaksto what a lot of parents feel.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Oh, absolutely, jenna , speaking in generational
differences.
When I went to kindergarten inthe 80s, we had half day
kindergarten, like am or pmkindergarten, and so even
kindergarten has that is wildwhere you know your kids are now
.
Yes, spending a full day atschool.
There are all these activities.
(06:07):
There are all these academicresponsibilities, like
kindergartners have homework nowright, it's wild, I know there
there are so many changes.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Another concept that I use a lot with families is
spillover.
So this is when work situationsit can be both good or bad
impact family interaction.
So an example of this might bethat your boss confronts you at
work about performance and thenthis in turn impacts your
interactions with your familymembers.
(06:37):
And sometimes I hear couplescomplain about like maybe one
person is in a job or a rolethat they're like deeply
dissatisfied with or reallyunhappy, and they can like feel
that energy come in at the endof the day when they come home
and that, like work stress isspilling over into the house and
(06:59):
really affecting like theenergy of the whole family.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Right, and I think, jenna, that can also play out in
different ways.
For example, I'm not like agrumpy person when I come home.
I really try to use my like 20to 25 minute drive to decompress
, but I'm just really tired.
I think I'm very emotionallytired when I get home and I'm
aware of that and I have toremind myself no, I have to go
(07:24):
home, I have to be a mom, I haveto attune to what my family so,
it's not like this.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
You know, when I'm done with my clients, I know I'm
done for the day, but I havefatigue, right, well, and I do
think that's a benefit of doingclinical work, because I
realized that I get to seeclients write some case notes
and leave work at work.
But I know, when I was inacademia, like one of the
reasons I left academia wasbecause I felt like I had this
(07:52):
like stress and spillover.
And actually one night I wasgiving my daughter a bath and I
know I had like a scowl on myface and she was like mommy,
like why are you so upset?
And it was because I wasthinking about work and at the
time there was a lot going on inour department.
Nari was was there and livedthrough it too, and I'm sure we
(08:12):
could have a whole podcast on onthat, but we won't.
But you know, my daughter waspicking up on some of that work
stress that I was feeling in themoment and I wasn't even
working at the time.
It was just like a work thoughtpopped in my head and she could
.
She could see that shift and Iguess part of that is just, you
know, being the daughter of atherapist, you can read others
(08:35):
emotions quite, quite well.
So one of the other things thattends to happen is called the
motherhood penalty, and this ismotherhood has a significant
negative impact on female incomeover the lifetime, and that's
often because women are the onesto limit their labor force
participation to care forchildren and family members, and
(08:58):
the reason they do this isbecause women earn 79% on
average of what men earn.
So an example of this would bea mother moving from full-time
work to part-time work andlosing salary and benefits.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Yeah, jenna, I can attest to that, because when my
kids were little I took fouryears off of clinical work.
I wanted more flexible work andthis was before COVID, before
really telehealth took off.
So I was like I don't want tobe in an office seeing clients.
So I did some flexibleconsulting and online work where
(09:36):
I could do it while kids werenapping and really honestly,
after four years I questionedlike will I ever go back to
therapy?
Because it had been so long.
And had it not been for theprompting of a friend who had a
practice who said just come forlike one or two hours a week,
(09:56):
you know, we'll do all the workfor you, we'll gather clients
for you, just show up and youknow like you're such a great
therapist it was such a nicecompliment.
But I really wrestled withtaking even one to two hours a
week away from my kids.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Right, yeah, that's such a challenge and I think,
like making that decision formoms and for families it is.
It's challenging and that's.
You know, one of the reasons Ileft academia is just because my
clinical work I do get to setmy own schedule now and I do
think my whole family reallybenefits from that and it's hard
(10:30):
to put like a price tag on thattoo.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
I want to take a minute and just give a huge
validation to parents who haveto work situation.
To parents who have to work,you know an eight to five job
because I have not had to dothat in a very, very long time
and I can set my hours.
I can say, you know I'm goingto be done at four.
But those parents who have toget their kids up and you know
(10:57):
have them at school or daycareat seven something in the
morning and then they got tofight the traffic on the way
home and you're picking up kidsat like almost six o'clock at
night and you are doing somehard work.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
That credit and validation for how hard that is,
and I know there are lots ofparents who are listening, who
do shift work, who are in likefirst responders field or
medical field.
You stay up all night.
You do some amazing things, andso I just want to say to stop
and take a minute to remindyourself that parenting is not
easy, working is not easy,marriage is not easy.
(11:32):
Those things in isolation arenot easy, but when then you
combine them all, you really gotto give yourself a lot of grace
.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
Right.
We certainly want to validatethe struggles there and say that
, like we acknowledge all of thechallenges that come along with
those roles.
Let's also talk about unpaidfamily work, because this is an
area when we say unpaid familywork, we mean caring for
(11:59):
dependent family members.
So examples are stay at homeparents.
Also, women tend to take onmore of the caregiving for their
aging parents as well, and Ihave.
I just want to say like I havethe utmost respect for stay at
home moms.
I think really anybody in thatcaregiving role.
I always say like I wish I couldswap the salaries of um, of
(12:24):
athletes, with caregiving folks,like people who work with, like
vulnerable populations, becauseit is hard work, um, and we
don't give them enough respectand, I think, value and that's
often reflected in the salariesof those.
So I know when my kids were indaycare I was like during COVID
(12:50):
they were looking to hiresomebody and I was trying to
help get students internshipsand I remember talking to one of
the directors and saying youknow, I'd like to help you all
try and find some, some help,and she had said like this rate
starts at $10 an hour, which islike wild to me, like when you
look at how much work a daycareemployee is doing it, it's wild.
(13:12):
Also, parents who are staying athome, like I don't think we
value like that work and howhard that job and role is either
.
But I will say I have theutmost respect for anybody who
is in that that caregiving roleand I, what I observe at my kids
school is that a lot of thestay at home mothers and fathers
(13:35):
we know that there are stay athome fathers as well are picking
up the slack of some of theworking moms.
Like okay, maybe I know thatmuffins for mom is coming up, so
I block off my client'sschedule, but then I'm not the
one decorating the classroom ordoing those other things that
they are doing.
So yes, I do think we need togive more respect and value to
(13:58):
that unpaid family work and ifyou do have a spouse or partner
who is doing some of that worklike I would strongly encourage
you to voice that appreciationfor what they do.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Absolutely, jenna, and I'm going to tell on myself
a little bit here.
I mean, when I kind of did moreflexible work from home and
then got back outside the home,I realized there were some
benefits to like my mentalhealth and my self-esteem to
working outside the home.
And so I mean, some of it waslike a like a personal choice of
(14:31):
like this makes me feel goodabout myself, and so I say all
that to say is like I don't knowif I could have stayed at home
full time with my kids untilthey all reached elementary
school.
I think there was a part of methat had to be really honest
with my fantasy of what stay athome moming looked like and the
reality of it, and I justrealized that I had different
(14:55):
desires and needs that weren'tbeing fulfilled by staying home
with my kids all the time,weren't being fulfilled by
staying home with my kids allthe time.
And so and there's nothingwrong with that but I also, like
again, I realized that womenwho stay at home by choice or
you know other reasons, they aremaking a huge sacrifice.
(15:15):
And fathers too, again, wedon't.
We, we know that there are lotsof fathers who choose to stay
home and raise their kids, butyou know, it is a huge sacrifice
and it does not deserve to gounnoticed.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Right, yeah, absolutely.
Another term the second shift.
So this is when employedparents put in a second shift of
unpaid work, that usuallyamounts to an extra month of
work each year.
So an example of this is youcome home from work and, like
Nari said, we're often tired,some of us maybe a little grumpy
too, and then the kids arethere.
(15:50):
The dishes cleaning, laundry,meal prep, yard work all of
those things still need to bedone.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Yes, absolutely Like I.
I mean at this point, jenna,like I wake up in the morning, I
throw in a load of laundry, Ihead to the gym, you know, and
then come back and like doingbreakfast dishes and packing
lunches and my husband gets thekids to school, and then you
work all day and you come homeand you're like, okay, like I
gotta fold that laundry that Istarted this morning right.
(16:19):
It just it really never ends Um.
And if it's not actual physicallabor, a lot of times for
parents it's also mental labor.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Yeah, the emotional labor.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Yeah, what are the kids have coming up?
Or you know, I try to check inwith my kids and I'm like, how
was your day?
And sometimes my kids are likeI had a terrible day and I'm
like, okay, we need to talkabout this, you know.
So there is a lot that goes on.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
And, yeah, when you come home, yeah, and I will say,
even couples who don't havekids still experience this.
You know, they might work afull day and they're still all
the housework.
So even if you remove kids fromthe equation, there's still a
lot to do to maintain ahousehold.
And so I think that's where wesee some of the conflict that
(17:07):
comes in with partners as well.
Sometimes I feel like partnerslike well, I'm more tired than
you because I did this today orI saw that.
And I also think that this iswhy so many people are
gravitating to some of thatremote work, because when you
work from home, in betweenmeetings, you might be able to
throw a load of laundry into thewasher, whereas, like when
(17:30):
you're working outside of thehome, you come home to
everything that was left there.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Oh, I absolutely agree.
I talked to a lot of coupleswhere one of the partners stays
home and they do have that timeto.
Yeah, on their lunch breakthey'll do you know, several
things around the house.
And when I ask them, oh, wouldyou ever go back to in-person
work?
A lot of times they're like no.
I like the flexibility of beinghome.
It gives our family theopportunity to not feel like
(17:59):
we're playing catch up all thetime because there's one partner
home right and keeping thewheels turning.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Yeah, exactly, and you know before I mentioned like
I feel blessed in that I get tosee clients and leave work at
work.
But one of the like pitfalls ofthat is that like we have to be
fully present with our clientsto see.
You know, I can't like take aphone call and be folding
laundry while I'm seeing clientsso I can't multitask where it's
like some of the other jobs.
(18:25):
Like I feel like some familieswouldn't be able to function as
they do without somebody beingremote and being able to do some
of that work.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Right, this last concept we're going to talk
about in this episode, jenna, itis a hot topic.
I'm hearing about it so muchwith my couples, so, and we, we
kind of alluded to it earlier.
But can you tell us what is themental load?
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Yeah, and I know we've touched on this in
previous episodes, but you'regoing to hear us continue to
talk about it because it doescome up so much in in our
sessions with couples.
This is the worry work.
So this is a constant thrumming, low level anxiety over the
health and wellbeing of yourfamily members.
So it's the thoughts like we'realmost out of milk.
(19:11):
Who's going to go to the store?
Did I run the dishwasher?
Are there diapers and wipes inthe diaper bag?
I forgot that tomorrow ispirate day and we've got to
somehow throw together a costume.
I will also throw myself underthe bus here because we have
show and tell every Friday and Ithink I have missed 80% of
(19:34):
those show and tell days.
I will have in my mind, likethis Friday we've got to do X, y
, Z and for the life of me Icannot remember to do it.
So sometimes, like we view ourtherapists as these, like
perfect people and I'm just hereto say that I'm not the perfect
parent and, despite holdingmuch of the mental load, I do
forget quite a bit.
(19:55):
So, yes, but this takes up alot of space and what we see too
is that women tend to hold moreof the mental load than male
partners in heterosexualrelationships.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Right.
I was going to add that thatwhen I'm looking at couples, a
lot of times it's women who arecomplaining more about the
mental load.
I will say for our femalelisteners, I've had to work on
myself with a little perspectiveshift on this, which is, how
much of the mental load am Iputting on myself?
(20:31):
And I want to give you a coupleexamples.
You know, at Christmas andJenna knows I love Christmas I
have two Christmas trees.
I would have more if I wasallowed for it.
I have some mini ones, right,but two big ones and I, you know
, want to give gifts for all myfriends.
And you know, like make sureyou know all the parties have
(20:53):
the right friends.
And you know, like make sureyou know all the parties have
the right.
You know activities and all thethings, the teachers,
everything.
But I get really stressed outaround that time.
And also one of my kiddos has abirthday around Christmas.
So then there's an added layer.
My husband does not care if Ido any of that.
Does that make sense.
Like he would not look at meand say Nari, you are a terrible
(21:15):
wife and mom for not doing allthese activities.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Gift giving is not his primary love language, so he
does not care.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
So to some degree that is my self-imposed mental
load, and I think again withlike pirate day or things like
that, like I do think that it'simportant for couples to be able
to identify what is the regularmental load of like operating
and running our family and thenwhat is the mental load we take
(21:46):
on is like a preference, right,and to be able to separate out
those two things, because then Ithink, if not, what you can end
up doing is getting veryresentful that your partner
doesn't care about everythingthat you care about.
But that's, that's normal, yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
You've got to check yourself though too, and I also
think you know I've had torealize like I'm not going to
miss another field trip, likeI've put that on myself and I
don't want to miss another fieldtrip, but like there are things
that like okay, I'm missingshow and tell on Fridays and
like maybe that's okay.
Some of you all might actuallybe horrified.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
I'm not judging you, Jenna.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
It's okay, judge away , but I am allowing myself to
sleep at night, knowing that I'mmissing much of the show and
tell Fridays.
But like you have to kind ofprioritize, like what is
important work-wise andfamily-wise and what can I maybe
let go of a little bit and givemyself a little bit of a break
on.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
Yeah, that's a great reframe, Jenna.
I do the same thing, like I'mnot going to go to every class
party that my kids have, butwhen they send that signup list
out, I'm buying like all thesnacks, right.
And I'm going to make sure theyget there, because I don't ever
want the teachers to feel likethey're having to come out of
pocket financially for our kidsto have this really fun party.
(23:06):
So, I'm like I may not be ableto be there for the party, but
the party items will be there.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Yeah, like how am I going to show up in my kid's
life and like you know what aremy priorities there as well?
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Right?
Well, like we said earlier,there's going to be a part two
to this, so we're going to stopthere for today, but again, we
covered some of the basic termsthat we see in couples about the
balance between work outsidethe home and work inside the
home.
So these are good talkingpoints that you could have with
(23:40):
your partner.
For example, do you feel likewe have work family conflict?
Is there spillover?
Coming home from work, you canmaybe talk with your partner
about your future career.
Do you feel like there's goingto be a penalty to your career
because you've chosen to be amother?
How do we look at unpaid familywork?
(24:01):
You know, do we, do we value it?
Do we feel valued in the unpaidfamily work that we do?
And you know also what ismental load and you know what.
What load do we really feellike we have to agree on is fair
?
And then, what do we have totake a step back from and say,
well, these are some of ourpreferences and these are not
(24:21):
what we expect from each other,but we like to do that, you know
we feel like really benefit ourfamily.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Well, next time, when you tune in to our part two of
work in the family, we're goingto be talking about common
conflicts when it comes tocouples around work and we're
going to be giving you some ofour favorite tips for couples.
Stay tuned.
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