Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the
Coupled Podcast with Dr Jenna
and Dr Nari.
We're so happy you're here.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
We're licensed
marriage and family therapists
who work with couples in privatepractice.
On this show, you'll get thevery best and proven information
based on our decades ofexperience as therapists.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Even though we have
12 years of graduate school
between us.
We also know how to keep itreal as friends, wives and
mothers.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Relationships are
complicated and we're here to
break it down.
Welcome to the Coupled Podcast.
We're here with Dr Jenna and DrNari Today.
We first want to start out withjust expressing some gratitude
to you, our listeners.
We really appreciate all thepositive feedback we've received
.
We love hearing from you aboutwhat topics have been helpful
(00:50):
and what topics you'd like tohear in the future.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Yep, that's right,
jenna.
It really is quite motivatingand inspirational to us.
We've received lots of messagesand emails and direct feedback
with people we run into inpublic and that really motivates
us.
And actually today's episode isinspired by a listener who sent
(01:14):
a message saying please do thistopic.
So we are going to talk aboutblended families.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Yeah.
So my question to you, nari, iswhat is a blended family?
And before you answer that, I'mgoing to probably be letting
Nari do most of the talkingtoday because she specializes in
blended families.
This is a subpopulation thatshe sees a lot of in her
practice.
So this is often a tip tocouples that I have is like
sometimes you do more listeningin a relationship and let the
other person shine and do moretalking.
So I'm tip to couples that Ihave is like sometimes you do
(01:44):
more listening in a relationshipand let the other person shine
and do more talking.
So I'm going to practice thattoday in our little business duo
and I'm going to let Nari domost of the talking.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
So well, jenna, a
blended family is basically, I
think, a fancier or more gentleterm for step family, and yeah,
I do specialize in working withblended families.
I think I grew up with stepparents.
I am a step mom, so I've hadlots of real world experience in
(02:18):
this.
But during my dissertationphases I did lots of papers on
step families.
Dissertation phases I did lotsof papers on step families and
the biggest takeaway and I knowyou know this, jenna, jenna's
giving me a lot of credit, butshe has a lot of the same
information is that stepfamilies are so complicated
because there's, first of all,no blended family is identical
(02:44):
to another one, and we'll talkabout, like, what makes them so
different but also that thereare essentially, like a lack of
norms for how step familiesshould operate, and and you've
talked about this, jenna, solet's let's talk a little bit
about like what we would call inour field, normative
development.
(03:04):
What does that mean when we'retalking about norms for how a
family develops over time?
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Right?
Well, I think when we look atfamily, particularly over time,
this has changed a little bitover the years, but people used
to meet, they used to date, theyused to get married, have
conversations about having kids,invite kids into the family,
family and so on and so forth.
Now we know that families havebecome a little bit more complex
.
People are cohabitating, havingkids outside of marriage, but
(03:34):
that norm still exists, andthat's different for blended
families.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Right, exactly.
So what happens is people gothrough that.
You know, dating, marriage,having kids, stage, and then
they obviously divorce and thenthey date again.
But dating with kids isdifferent than dating without
kids.
And then they recombine into afamily and now you have kids of
(03:59):
all different you know ages,backgrounds, genders, and I
think that's what makes blendedfamilies so complex.
I like to say they're likesnowflakes, like everyone is
different from the other.
Yeah, so some different factorsthat can influence the
configuration of like a blendedfamily is how many times were
(04:21):
the people married before?
Like we know that people getmarried, sometimes like they're
on their third marriage, youknow, when they're blending a
family.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Right and we know
some of this research, but maybe
not all of our listeners do itLike once you get divorced, like
you're actually more likely toget divorced again in your next
marriage.
So sometimes these blendedfamilies, like people have been
married many times and havechildren with different, like
sets of partners as well.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Absolutely.
And then because of that,you're bringing in children,
like you said, from a firstmarriage or maybe from a second
marriage, and every child, theirsex, their age, their
personality, can all influencehow the blended family comes
together.
Also, custody, that's a bigthing.
Like I work with families whohave, you know, children like
(05:11):
kind of coming in and out of thehouse at different times, it's
like is it every other week orevery two days or every other
weekend, and so custody canreally affect how that blended
family functions Right, becausethere are different custody
agreements too, right.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
So some parents might
have full-time custody, so when
they're with their new partner,those kids are with them all
the time, whereas other dynamicsare more 50, 50.
So it's like one set of kids orone child might be in the home
24, seven, but then the otherset of kids or a kid might be
(05:46):
there every other week, right.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Exactly so.
That's every time I look at ablended family.
I know the basic dynamics, likeof how step families are
challenging, but I have to sitand talk with them and get this
thorough view of like yes, whatare the kids ages?
Like the, you know what kidsare coming, what kids are going,
you know what are theirrelationships like with both
(06:09):
sets of parents Right?
Speaker 2 (06:11):
And you mentioned the
ages too.
Like I work with a lot ofparents.
Like parenting a teenager isvery different than parenting a
toddler, and so sometimes inthese blended families, you have
teenagers, you have school agechildren, you have babies.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
It can be complex,
and that can be challenging for
the children too, because whatcan happen is, when you
recombine families, you canactually have a child's birth
position kind of change.
So, maybe they're used to beingthe oldest in their family, but
they come in and now they'rethe middle child or even the
(06:48):
youngest and they're like wait asecond.
You know, I used to be, I usedto hold this kind of special
position and in my family, butnow I've got to compete and
contend with these oldersiblings or younger siblings
that I have haven't had to RightLike birth, can uh position can
actually change.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
which Right like
birth can position can actually
change.
Which is why, like you know, ifyou're the oldest child and
then you become a middle child,like that's, that's going to
change your dynamics.
And so I guess I'm curious,like, what are some of the
issues that you see blendedfamilies bringing into therapy?
Speaker 1 (07:27):
families bringing
into therapy oh my goodness, so
many.
I mean, I think the biggestissue that I see is it it.
It boils down to parenting,right?
So I do see that a lot ofcouples, when they start a
blended family, are intentionalabout having conversations about
parenting.
They know in their brains likethis is going to be complicated,
(07:48):
right, but until you actuallyhave to execute it, you really
just don't know what to expect.
So a lot of times they have thesame values, like we want our
kids to have structure or wewant, you know, our home to be
an emotionally safe place forthem.
But those big goals can becarried out in very different
(08:10):
ways Right Like.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
What does this look
like day to day, right and?
Speaker 1 (08:13):
so I see a lot of
parenting conflicts and issues
as a result of that kind of.
More specifically, there endsup being a lot of fighting
between, like the two sets offamilies, kind of like this idea
of you treat me and my kidsdifferently are you?
(08:37):
parenting my kids in a lovingway, or you know, if you're
strict with them, are you beingmaybe overly punitive, are you
not so with your kids?
And you know.
And then you add into thatanother confounding factor,
(09:00):
which is what is that person'srelationship like with their ex?
Because when you marry someoneI hate to say it, but for better
or for worse, you sometimesmarry their ex.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Oh, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
That person has an
influence in your life.
And so, again, talking aboutloyalty, sometimes people will
feel like you're being moreloyal to your ex than you're
being to me, because you're notlistening to what I need, you're
not honoring our agreements,because you're defaulting to
(09:35):
what your ex wants.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Right, and sometimes
that ex takes up a lot of space
in the current couplerelationship.
Yeah, I definitely see thatRight.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
So for a biological
family, that's not something
they have to contend with.
So that in and of itself isprobably like this the
complications of we have ourfamily that we're trying to
create, but we have otherfamilies that have an influence
on how our family functions,plus, again, all the needs of
(10:06):
our children and their differentpersonalities.
So I think that's the biggestissue is just a sense of
overwhelm.
How do we navigate this?
And, jenna, I know we talkedabout this before the podcast,
but there are different ways oflooking at stepfamilies.
In the show notes, we're gonnaput in this idea of how do
stepfamilies and in the shownotes, we're going to put in
this idea of how do stepfamiliesdevelop.
(10:28):
There was a therapist namedPatricia Paper now, who
developed a seven stage modelfor stepfamily development.
But that first stage, jenna,can you talk about it?
Because I think this is wherethings really start to go wrong.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Sure.
So the first stage that sheidentifies is this fantasy stage
whereby partners might believethat because they love each
other, their kids will also loveeach other, that it's just
going to work out like loveconquers all.
But we know that that doesn'talways happen.
So, like we said, step familiescan get complicated, like I
(11:05):
know.
I think this is probably fromhaving experience working with
younger children and withparents, but I also know that,
like in step families, I thinkwhen kids are going through
change and transition, they cantest boundaries.
So that can be a big headachefor families as well, as
children will kind of resist andpush back and test those
(11:28):
boundaries in the new familydynamic.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Absolutely so.
I think with anything thatstarts off new, we all have a
fantasy, right Like when we getmarried, we have a fantasy of
what marriage life will looklike.
When we have a baby, we have afantasy of what that'll look
like.
And same with stepfamilies Alot of times.
When you're first a step, youknow, like combining a
(11:51):
stepfamily, there's a lot of fun, there's a lot of activities, a
lot of it's new, yeah, it'scome hang out with me and my
kids at the beach, those things.
But then when you recombinefamilies and you do have to step
into a parenting role again,the children might be like wait,
I liked it when you were dad'sgirlfriend and you like, but now
(12:16):
you're telling me I have tohave chores.
Yeah, living in my space,exactly.
So after that, fantasy stage iswhat I think is like the wake
up call.
The therapist, patricia Paper,now calls that the immersion
stage.
And think about immersion likecultural immersion.
It's like you're living in aculture.
Right In the immersion stageyou're living in the step family
(12:38):
and you're going.
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Reality sets in yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Reality sets in and
now a lot of negative feelings
start coming out from thestep-parents, from the child,
and those feelings can bejealousy, resentment, like
confusion, like what happened.
We thought this was going to beso great and so easy, and then
almost like feelings ofinadequacy, like we thought we
(13:03):
were ready for this.
We had conversations like we'reboth parents, like we thought
we knew what we were doing yeahLike feeling probably
overwhelmed and underprepared insome sense.
Yeah, so there are a lot ofstages that kind of come after
that.
But I think that one thing Iwant to remind people is that it
(13:23):
takes a long time for a stepfamily to gel.
It doesn't happen overnight anda lot of times it doesn't
happen over a couple of years.
People have often asked me howlong does it take for a step
family to really hit theirstride?
And I researched it and lookedat the literature and what does
(13:46):
just plain old Google say?
And what I come back to.
The rule of thumb is a lot oftimes it takes as many years as
the oldest child coming into thestep family.
So what that means is, let'ssay, the oldest child coming
into the step family is 10.
They're saying it's going totake 10 additional years for the
(14:06):
step family to feel like theyhave some clarity and like some
regularity.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
That's a long time to
ride out like some discomfort.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Right, absolutely,
and it's not to say that there
aren't moments of peace andprogress.
But, like with anything,progress is not linear.
It goes up and down.
Two steps forward, one stepback.
And so, but yeah, and that'swhy, if you look at the average
divorce rates, let's just forround number say the divorce
(14:37):
rate for first marriages, likehovers around 42 to 50% for
first marriages.
We know the divorce rate forsecond marriages is around 65%,
so it's even higher.
And I think I mean I know thereason why is when people start
encountering these troubles andstep families and they've
already been divorced once,they're like you know what.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
I will survive.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Yeah, I'll survive
another divorce and I'm not
going to stick around as long.
In my first, like in my firstmarriage, I stuck around a long
time.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
It didn't work out
Right now here we're like more
willing to call it quits sooner,right Earlier, on Exactly.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
So that's another
reason why the divorce rate for
second marriage is so muchhigher.
So, um, Jenna, I do want to askyou, cause I know you come
across some step families inyour practice Do you see any
other issues that come up withstep families?
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Hmm, I feel like
there are so like, like you said
, there are so many complexitieshere.
I will say, like some families,I think, are just more open and
, like are able to identify thebenefits of stuff.
You know, like it is sometimeslike this really rich family
(15:54):
life, more relationships.
Some people, like I will say,even acknowledge the benefits of
those blended families.
So say, like we were talkingabout blending families with
children, say, you have youngkids, you marry somebody whose
kids are a little bit older andthose kids start to babysit the
younger kids and suddenly youknow you can go out and so there
(16:17):
are benefits to these things.
And I do think couples who likeadjust are able to really
acknowledge, like what are thepros and let's team up against
the cons of like just thecomplexities that exist.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Yeah, jenna, I love,
love that perspective and I
think that that's so helpful.
Right, it's not all bad.
And especially after there hasbeen a divorce, I think you've
had to process a lot of pain.
You've had to heal.
Sometimes I'll tell my couplesthis is your time to shine.
(16:53):
Right, you got out of thatrelationship even if you didn't
want to, but because there wassome unhappiness there was
dissatisfaction so you get torecreate another, you know
opportunity for happiness.
Let's just say, and so I lovethat idea of you know I don't
(17:13):
have to have this ex partner inour lives.
But how can we all benefit fromthese new arrangements?
And, and I will say, maybe wehave some listeners who are in
the early stages of blending afamily, or maybe who are even
dating, who are looking at youknow, I'm going to blend a
(17:34):
family in the future and I wouldsay, if I could give one piece
of advice, I would say how youtalk about your ex to your
future partners lays thegroundwork for the relationship
that that partner may have withyour ex in the future.
So I get it.
(17:54):
When you have a new partner andthey're like, why did your last
relationship end?
Why did you get a divorce?
It can be very cathartic.
These are all these reasons.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
And.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
I think it's really
helpful to maybe just kind of
focus on we didn't connect, wehad a lot of conflict, whatever
you know, get to a place whereyou can say they're not a bad
person and I really let themknow your goal is I want to have
a good co parentingrelationship, right, Right.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
But and these are the
things that I learned from this
last week I think that can behelpful to is like acknowledging
that there are two people in apast relationship and, yes,
maybe my partner did some thingsthat were hurtful or you know
but that I also was in thisdynamic And've learned these
things and I want to do betterin this relationship, right.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
But if you paint your
ex out to be the wicked witch
or the incredible Hulk, likejust a terrible person, your new
partner, out of their loyaltyfor you, is likely going to see
them that way.
So then, when you're all tryingto co-parent together, you're
you're honestly set up for avery like I don't know
(19:05):
contentious, yeah, justrelationship.
So I do like to caution peopleof if you're transitioning
between a marriage into datingor maybe another marriage,
really do that healing work.
And again, you I will caveatthis by saying some people's
exes are terrible to co-parentwith and you have no control.
(19:25):
So you know that's.
One thing is that if if we havepeople who can be healthy and
can be mature, like we can moveforward and have it will have
less stress on your new marriage, it will have less stress on
your children.
You don't have less stress onyour ex's new partner, and I
(19:48):
mean everybody wins there right.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Well, and that is
like one tip I will often give
to couples is like okay, let'slook at this relationship Like
what do we have control overwith the ex and what do we not
have control over with the ex?
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Yeah, absolutely so,
jenna.
Again, I appreciate that you'regiving me the mic, so to speak,
to talk about this, but youalso have a lot of expertise and
training in parenting.
So I did want to say, like,from the parenting expert side
of things, what tips would yougive blended families?
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Sure.
So I do think it's important toidentify realistic expectations
for the family.
I do think like people get alittle overwhelmed thinking
about blending families andsometimes like even step-parents
like get a bad rap.
You think of like Disney movieswhere it's like the evil step
parent you know.
So people I think do come intothese families with a good
amount of fear.
(20:43):
But I do like to offer clientshope.
Like some people blend familiesreally well and there are
benefits to that, I will saywhen it comes to parenting,
there there do tend to be somechallenges.
And one thing I learned in mytraining and I try to like coach
some parents on this as well aslike at that initial phase of
(21:04):
blending families, like the stepparent, I say try not to get
into a discipline role right upfront.
Like try to let biologicalparent, primary parent, do the
disciplining and take a backseatin that regard.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Absolutely.
I agree with that and I thinkthat, again, discipline it can
take lots of different forms.
I think sometimes we often thinklike discipline has to do with
like punishment and you knowuncomfortable stuff, but
discipline the word means toteach, and so you can talk about
(21:43):
like, yeah, maybe the stepparent taking on, maybe not so
much the punitive part ofdiscipline, but there could be
other parts that they're reallysupportive part.
Yeah, absolutely.
What about just Jenna, withparenting?
And I know this applies, butlike a lot of times kids in
these situations are likeswitching back and forth between
(22:05):
homes, like what parentingadvice would you give to like
address that issue of like twodifferent houses, right?
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Well, you want to try
and be as consistent as
possible and this is a piecewhere I think that, like, what
do we have control over and whatwe do not have control over?
You want to try and get on thesame page.
If you are parenting with anex-partner, like, let's try to
have similar rules, similarroutines for our kids, because
(22:34):
you also like, from the kid kidsperspective, to protect them
when blending families, you wantthem to have like as much of a
predictable schedule for thingsto not be so disruptive to them.
So if you can get on the samepage as the other co-parent to
try and make their scheduleconsistent, their rules
(22:57):
consistent, that that's reallyimportant.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Right, and I think
with the word consistent, I will
add to that like if you want tofight with someone, you will
find a reason to fight with themRight.
So what I what I think you meanby consistent is, let's say, at
one house a child has like anine o'clock bedtime and at the
other house they have a 930bedtime.
(23:20):
Like you could really battle itout about that.
But sometimes you got to take astep back and you're like, is
that 30 minutes?
That big of a difference?
But yeah, if one child has, youknow they're in elementary
school and they have a nineo'clock bedtime, but at the
other house the parent doesn'tmonitor them and you know that
child is staying up till 12o'clock bedtime.
But at the other house theparent doesn't monitor them and
(23:40):
you know that child is stayingup till 12 o'clock at night
watching TV.
Like that might be somethingyou have to address right.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Yeah, you do have to
pick and choose your battles, I
think, when it comes to thesethings, and take a step back and
say like, okay, do we have thesame values or wishes for our
kids and kind of let go of someof the smaller stuff?
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Yeah, Some other tips
I would suggest, and and again
this has been just through alsoworking with children and
blended families.
When I used to see a lot ofkids and teens, they really feel
like they don't have a voiceright.
They didn't have a choice thattheir parents got a divorce.
They didn't have a choice thattheir parents got a divorce.
(24:18):
They didn't have a choice onwho their parents marry.
And then they don't have achoice really about like, do
they move into a new house, dothey go to a new school?
And so that I know as an adult,I don't like when I don't have
choices right so can you imaginea child experiencing all of
these really dramatic lifechoices that affect their
(24:41):
everyday lives?
And so I think like one verypractical tip is maybe giving
kids the opportunity to have avoice.
It doesn't mean you alwaysrespond to that right you have
to be the parent, but you couldlike schedule like a family
meeting once a week and just say, like, how are we feeling this
week about?
(25:02):
Do we have you know?
Do you guys have any grievances?
Do you have anything you'reconfused about?
Cause?
they might be like well, I'mconfused as to why they get to
eat ice cream all the time, butI don't things like that or why
did they get to have sleepovers,you know, or whatever?
And so I mean I think it'simportant to give kids the
(25:22):
opportunity to vent, yeah, andthe open line of communication.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
I think that's
important because so many like
families will ask me about likeokay, that initial conversation
to discuss like divorce or we'regetting, but really those
conversations could, shouldcontinue, that you should keep
the kids involved.
And maybe the kids aren'tmaking the decision on whether
you move to a new home, but I dolove the idea of giving kids
(25:48):
some decision making.
That is age appropriate.
So, like, if you are moving toa new house, I'm like how about
you ask your kid, like how aboutyou choose your paint color of
your new room?
You know, like letting themhave some decision making, but
it doesn't have to be on likewhether or not to move, you know
, but age appropriate decisionmaking, Exactly.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Perfect, and the last
thing I would suggest is
seeking help from a professional.
I mean, probably 40 years agowe didn't have, you know, people
to talk to about step families,right, but the mental health
world is has exploded.
There are so many resources,I'm sure, there, I know there
(26:31):
are books, there are podcasts,you know you can do Google
searches for articles.
I've done a lot of them andthey say the same thing.
But again, you can get thesegeneral tips for how to navigate
step family life.
But I really think seeing atherapist or a professional to
(26:51):
help one, you identify theunique aspects of your family
and take a step back and go.
Oh yeah, like this is kind ofcomplicated.
Here are the things we have topay attention to, but also to
the communication part of it,because if you weren't able to
learn to communicate effectivelyin your previous relationship.
(27:13):
You know not to sound critical,but you may have to again
revisit what parts of ourcommunication need to improve so
we can talk about these issues,because when you start talking
about other people's kids, thatcan elicit some emotions in
people.
People are defensive of theirchildren.
So I think it's reallyimportant to get help for the
(27:35):
content part of being in a stepfamily, but also making sure can
we talk in a peaceful,constructive, effective way,
Right, Well and I do thinktherapy allows people to get
some of those tools.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
I will also say, just
having worked with some family
like they also just appreciatethe validation of like I think
you all are doing a really greatjob of this, or this is a
benefit or a strength, likebeing able to see some of the
positive aspects of the blendedfamily system.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Right, absolutely,
jenna I.
I will say like on my website Ihave in my bio that I'm a
step-mom and.
I've had so many clients say Iread in your bio that you're a
stepmother and that's why wecame to see you and it was that
validation.
And I remember when I became astepmom in my twenties I mean,
(28:23):
all my friends were barelygetting married, let alone they
they weren't stepmoms.
I felt really, really alone inthat experience and very lost.
I mean, I was in school so Ihad some basis.
But just the social support andthe validation and understanding
would have been really nice.
Yeah, so I had some basis, butjust the social support and the
validation and understandingwould have been really nice.
Yeah, absolutely yeah.
Well, that is all we have todayfor about first step families
(28:47):
or blended families.
That's not everything there isto talk about, but we try to
keep these podcasts easy anddigestible for you so you can
listen to them on the way towork or a short walk.