August 27, 2025 • 28 mins
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Season 2 Episode 12: Sex, Sleepovers, and Spending: The Surprising Rules of Open Relationships
Continuing our exploration of ethical non-monogamy, Dr. Nari and Dr. Jenna dive into the nuanced world of boundaries and rules that make these relationships work. Following Dr. Ethan Schwab's interview on different forms of non-monogamous relationships, this episode uncovers the practical aspects of how couples navigate these complex arrangements.
We shatter the common misconception that "anything goes" in open relationships. Drawing from our clinical experience, we share how couples establish and maintain boundaries around physical spaces, emotional connections, time management, and finances. From prohibiting outside encounters in the shared home to negotiating overnight stays with secondary partners, these boundaries reflect efforts to protect the primary relationship while creating space for additional connections.
Geographic and cultural context significantly impacts how these relationships function. While ethical non-monogamy might be commonplace in progressive cities like Seattle, navigating these arrangements in more conservative regions like Tallahassee presents unique challenges. The small-town dynamic means greater risk of social circles overlapping, making privacy and disclosure boundaries particularly important.
What makes this conversation especially valuable is the honesty about their own learning journey. We acknowledge having more questions than answers about ethical non-monogamy, reflecting the evolving nature of relationship structures in contemporary society. Our approach emphasizes self-awareness, communication, and ongoing consent as foundations for any relationship style.
Whether you're curious about ethical non-monogamy, actively practicing it, or simply interested in improving communication in your monogamous relationship, this episode offers valuable insights into setting boundaries and expressing needs. Have questions or want to continue the conversation? Reach out through Instagram @thecoupledpodcast or use the text link in our show notes.
Dr. Jenna and Dr. Nari are the Licensed Marriage and Family Therapists behind the Coupled Podcast. They both have private practices where they work with individuals, couples, and families in Florida. The two are ready to shake up the world of couples therapy and want to extend resources beyond the couples they see in their private practices.
If you like this episode and want to know more about taking the next step to improve your communication, connection, and intimacy, head over to our websites to learn more about our Staying Coupled and Getting Coupled courses. These online courses give you the flexibility to improve your relationship from the comfort and convenience of your home. The Staying Coupled course is for couples who want to do the work to connect, communicate, and have the healthiest relationship possible. The Getting Coupled course is for premarital couples wanting to learn the essentials for a successful marriage. Topics in both courses include the main issues couples face:
- Communication
- Family Boundaries
- Family Finances
- Sex
- Family Planning
- Division of Labor
- Couple Activities
For more information, visit drjennascott.com/courses or drnarijeter.com/courses
Disclaimer: This podcast is not a substitute for therapy. If you’re struggling, we encourage you to seek support from a licensed therapist in your state. Our relationship suggestions and content may not be applicable or advised for relationships with intimate partner violence (IPV). If you need resources, contact the Na
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
On last week's episode of the Coupled Podcast,
I interviewed Dr Ethan Schwab,who practices in Seattle
Washington and specializes inthe treatment of non-monogamous
relationships and atypicalsexuality.
Ethan discussed different typesof ethical non-monogamy trends
in his practice and offered someexpert advice and provided
resources.
Today, nari and I will continuethe discussion of ethical
(00:23):
non-monogamy in openrelationships.
We'll talk about some of theboundaries that couples
negotiate in these relationshipsand continue our discussion.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Yeah, jenna, I think this is, you know, obviously a
pretty interesting topic and Iwill say we were talking about
this before.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
where Ethan is from, ethical non-monogamy and open
relationships are kind of likeall the rage, but where we're at
in Tallahassee, florida, itit's kind of like a newer thing
or maybe even a little tabooright yeah, I find that, like in
this part of the country,people tend to be more
conservative, more religious,like religious practices
(01:03):
sometimes get in the way of alot of these conversations or
people being open to exploringthose things.
But I will say like, over time,this is a topic that is coming
up more in my sessions withindividuals and with couples, so
I think it's important for usto to open the floor and to talk
about these things.
I think a lot of people arecurious about this topic and I
(01:26):
will say like I still have morequestions than answers.
That's what I learned fromtalking with Ethan.
I tend to be somebody who'slike, deeply reflective.
And so afterwards I was like Ifeel like I could have had
multiple episodes with EthanCause I.
I still have lots of questions.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Right, and I think some of the like broad maybe
like misinformation about openor polyamorous or what's also
called ethical non-monogamousrelationships, is that anything
goes, and that's actually notthe truth.
That's not the case.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
No, and there's a lot of variation in the different
types of relationships.
So I think you know what wouldbe helpful is maybe if we talked
about how this has come up inour practices.
And I know like for you, you'vedrawn up contracts with folks
and so even just going over oneof those sample contracts I
(02:19):
think would be helpful as well.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Right, yeah, getting back to that assumption of like
anything goes, that's.
That's not the case, and therecan still be disappointment,
conflict and even infidelity inrelationships that allow for
other sexual or emotionalpartners.
So where Esther Perel said thisin her state of affairs book
(02:43):
and I love is that where thereis a boundary, a boundary can be
crossed Absolutely.
So people can have differentexpectations and their partner
can cross it knowingly, or evennot knowingly, if it hasn't been
stated.
So that's why it's so importantto have clear boundaries, like
(03:04):
everybody understands them, butalso they're clearly stated.
And also in these relationshipsI've found these things need to
be renegotiated.
So I've had couples andindividuals because I've seen
both who had these boundaries tostart with and then, when
they've gotten further along intheir relationship process,
they're like that boundary isnot working for me anymore, or
(03:27):
we tried that.
I had a negative reaction to it.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
And so that told me something Right.
Couples need to renegotiatetime and time again.
And that's where I had askedEthan, like how are people like
kind of coming to your practiceand bringing up this topic?
And he said, like one reasonpeople are coming in is because
they've tried this out withouthaving these explicit
conversations and it hasn't gonewell, and so that's why it can
be really helpful to gainresources to seek out help from
(03:56):
a couple's therapist.
And I will say, like this isnot an area where I specialize
in.
I feel like I still have a lotof questions about this topic,
but there's also not somebody torefer folks to in Tallahassee,
Florida, like if Ethan practicehere, I'd say, oh, like, let me
put you in touch with Dr EthanSchwab, but he is out in Seattle
(04:18):
Washington and so that I thinkis tricky.
But I will say I'm a very likeopen couple therapist and so I'm
willing to do that work andexplore this with my clients.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Yeah, I agree, jenna.
I would say like I'm not acertified sex therapist and
although we have like sextherapy integrated into our
training, I feel like I can havethose boundary discussions Like
I feel like I have enough liketraining and knowledge and
practice and boundary settingand like about clear
communication, that, that thatwhole piece of like let's draw
(04:53):
up a contract or let's let'stalk about how realistic these
boundaries are, like I can, Ifeel comfortable doing all that.
But when it gets into some ofthe more nuanced stuff or maybe
some of the like sexualcomponents because not all open
relationships and polyamorythey're not just about sex,
right, some of these are aboutactually navigating like
(05:15):
emotional connection Rightexactly, and so sometimes I'm
like, you know, this isemotional connection.
Yeah, like we can talk aboutthat emotional connection, yeah,
like we can talk about that.
But then when it gets more intosome of the rules and
expectations of the polyamorykind of like community and
culture, I'm like, oh, you mayhave to go to like an online
resource or like a coach orsomething like that, cause I'm
(05:37):
not an expert in that area.
Yeah, so let's um, I have thislike kind of conglomeration of
like different rules that I'veworked on with couples and
individuals for their open andpolyamorous relationships, so I
thought we could just like kindof go through what some of those
are.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
I can kind of jump in when some of those same topics
have come up in my individualand couple sessions, to where
people have explored this topicRight my individual and couple
sessions to where people haveexplored this topic Right.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
So one very common rule is no physical, like sexual
, interactions at our house,which again, I think some people
would be like, oh, anythinggoes, but people are very
protective of their spaces thatthey share with their partner.
So that is one across the board.
That kind of surprised mebecause I thought, well then,
where else do you do thesethings?
Speaker 1 (06:28):
It's got to be outside of the house for a lot
of folks yes.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Yeah, and they are, yeah, typically renting hotel
rooms or going to the otherperson's house if that's allowed
, but common, no, no, no, youknow stuff happening in our
house.
Another one that's actuallypretty common too is just like
(06:51):
negotiating Can you spend thenight with this person.
So some people are like sex isfine, but they view like
sleeping with that person in thesame bed as like a violation of
intimacy, which again like kindof makes sense to me, right,
because, um, sex is like aninteraction, but you you had
said this in a previous podcastlike to sleep with someone, you
(07:14):
have to feel safe and bevulnerable, and that feels too
vulnerable, right.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Well, for like open relationships where it's like I
don't want you to be havingthese like emotional connections
with other people, like I wantyou to negotiate this
relationship for for sex, andthat's where, like I learned
from Ethan, like there's so muchvariation in like this umbrella
term of ethical non-monogamy.
But, yeah, in openrelationships where couples are
(07:39):
like it's okay to go outside ofour relationship for sex.
It's okay to go outside of ourrelationship for sex.
They're not wanting thatintimacy to be built, so they
don't want you to spend thenight with somebody else.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Well, yeah, because when you spend the night, too,
there could be cuddling and likepillow talk.
And here's the other thingPeople who are having open
relationships, even if it's likepolyamory.
Where you can, you can have anemotional connection to someone
else.
What if you have kids at home,right, and they're like I don't
want to explain to the kids,like where you are, why you're
not home at bedtime, why you'renot here in the morning.
(08:14):
You need to be here to do thatnighttime and morning routine.
So, um, there can be lots ofreasons why people are like
those long, extended sleepovers.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
No, they're not happening.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Now some couples will make the exception that they
you can have an overnight, likerendezvous or whatever, but I
don't want to be in town, whichagain like speaks to me about
this.
Like you have to prioritize ourrelationship, so if I'm not
here it doesn't matter, butdon't choose to spend the night
with someone when I'm here intown.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Well, and time was something Ethan and I named as
well, Cause I do think that's abig piece Like when couples have
explored this topic with me.
It is like I don't want you tochoose to spend time with this
other person If it's getting inthe way of our quality time
together, right.
So like I'm not comfortablewith you signing up for like a
(09:09):
date or going to have sex withthis other person if that means
like I'm sitting at home andlike have the expectation to
spend time with you.
So I do think time is this liketricky thing in some of the
relationships that I've exploredwith folks.
Like some have a rule that likeit can only be out of town,
Like if you're on like yourconferences or like traveling
(09:31):
for whatever reason that's whereyou can explore like these
other relationships, but notlike in town.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Right, well, and Jenna.
That just reminds me like wetalk a lot with our couples
about time apart versus timetogether and like when can you
do your hobbies?
Like, and a lot of timeshobbies can't interfere with
family time right.
So it's almost like this is likeput into that category of like
an extracurricular hobby.
It's not necessary, but if youhave free time you can engage it
(09:59):
.
Yes, yeah, um also.
Uh, some people will say noweekend trips and this gets
connected to you're not going tohave romantic getaways or
rendezvous.
Yes, if you're already out oftown, make it happen, but don't
take away again from our time.
Don't go on vacations with thisperson.
(10:21):
If you're going to go onvacation, it's going to be with
me.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Yeah, Our time, and that's where finances plays a
role in this too.
Right, Like you're not going tobe extravagantly treating this
other person you know in insteadof me, so, and that's where,
like that's where Ethan talkedto about these different types
of relationships.
So I think like we're speakinga little bit more to like an
(10:45):
open relationship where there'sthis like primary partner, yeah,
and that's a good point.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Um, and in working with some of my individuals, um,
especially if they happen to besingle and then entering a
polyamorous relationship withsomeone else, they'll talk with
them about, like, do you have aprimary partner?
And they might be, like I wantto be your primary partner.
You can still maintain yourother partners, but, like, I
(11:12):
expect more.
And that has to be negotiatedbetween them and this other
person because they, while thatother person, is engaging in
polyamory, they might be likeI'm not looking for a primary
partner.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Yeah, and this is something like Ethan and I
talked about is like you have tohave a high level of
self-awareness as like what youneed from relationships, what
your expectations are fromrelationships I feel like
there's a big piece ofself-awareness that plays a role
in developing these contractsand like what your expectations
(11:47):
are for a partner or formultiple partners.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Right, and I've.
I've found that some of myindividuals that I see, who I've
seen for like a long time intherapy, who then come to me and
say, Nari, I'm, I'm thinkingabout doing this they will then
tell me, like, what theirexpectations are.
And it's really neat as atherapist when you know someone
for a while to look at theclient and be like, are you
(12:11):
really going to be okay withthat?
You know, and they'll look atme and they'll they'll say, like
well, why, why are you askingme that question?
And I'll say, like well, basedon things we've talked about
before, or like some of yourtrauma or issues, like it would
seem like this might push onthat a little bit, and they're
like you know what?
That's something for me tothink about so.
(12:32):
I do think that's a really greatpoint, jenna, is that you have
to be like honest with yourself.
Jenna is that you have to belike honest with yourself and
you know, talking about with atherapist who may know you too
could like challenge that alittle bit, right.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Yeah, and I think that was one of like Ethan's
tips and suggestions too is tonot just like jump into this not
to hear the sample contract andjust say like let's start this
tomorrow.
Like this takes a lot ofplanning, a lot of thoughts some
work on self-awareness as well,yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Um, now some clients will tell me in this week this
gets into like how much do wewant to know?
Some clients will say Iabsolutely want to know who
you've been with, especially ifthere's a chance of me like
running into them in town orkind of like knowing them.
(13:26):
Um, so that is also a boundary.
It's like I need to know whothe other person is.
It doesn't mean I'm gonna likelike tease them or tease you
about them.
I'm not going to confront them,but I just kind of, if I'm
walking into a situation, wantto know who that person?
is and don't want to be left out.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Right.
Well, and this is where, like Ithink, location of where you're
exploring these things plays arole in this right.
So Ethan is in Seattle, whichis like such a large area.
In Tallahassee, this feels likea very small town, like there
are not many degrees ofseparation.
So that might make sense herethat people are like I want to
know, just so that I might beinteracting with somebody who
(14:06):
you've explored this openrelationship with, Um, whereas,
like I guess, when I've workedwith folks who are more on the
side of like you can do thatwhen you're away they don't want
to know the details, the names,it can be different.
So again, so much variation.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Right, that's a good point, jenna.
And that brings up another partof contracts is, some clients
want to know, like not thedetails, but they want like a
debrief.
So they just kind of want toknow, like, did you meet with
someone today?
Because some couples requireadvance permission.
So they'll say, like, beforeyou do this, I need to know.
(14:45):
Other people will say, like, Idon't need to know in the
advance, but I do want to knowby the end of the day.
Hey, I met up with someonetoday.
So again like, and what I foundis I actually had someone who
didn't tell their partner thatthey met up with someone that
that day and, like that partnerfelt pretty wounded.
They were, like they found outlater, Like why didn't you tell
(15:08):
me that was part of our contract?
Like why are you hiding thisfrom me?
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Yep, yep.
So that's where I like, I thinkagain, like you can have this
contract, but I found that itneeds to be renegotiated and
people need to stick to thecontract too.
Like if you sit down and have aconversation about, like this
is what we're going to put intoplace, it can feel like a
betrayal if people don't followthe rules of the contract.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Right, don't follow the rules of the contract Right
Now.
The other kind of portion ofthat is in the debrief.
Some partners are really openin knowing like all the things,
like what happened, like whatdid you do, where did you go,
and other partners just want toknow it happened and like
nothing else.
So you have to respect yourpartners like like some of their
(16:01):
privacy too.
Some people have more privateboundaries and some people have
more open boundaries and somepartners like I'll tell you
whatever you want to know.
But others are like I'm morecomfortable with just saying it
happened and like I don't wantto disclose anymore.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
And so that's.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
That's another kind of boundary to negotiate.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Well, cause you can't unknow the details.
That's what I always tellpartners, Even when, like
affairs come up infidelity.
It's like you might have all ofthese questions but, like, once
you hear the information, youcan't take that back.
So, like you know, that's agood question to kind of ask
yourself.
Will I be able to handle theanswers to these questions that
(16:39):
I'm asking?
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Another boundary might be like friends and
colleagues.
Some people are like no friendsof mine and no colleagues, Like
they don't want this to expandinto their social network, and I
mean you can be like.
One thing I like to remember isyou can be jealous over your
friends, Like all of us havelike close friends and we might
(17:02):
be jealous that our one friendis getting closer of another
friend.
So then if you invite a friendinto your relationship, that's
there can be some naturaljealousy there too.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
This is where I'm like this gets tricky right
Again, where I like have morequestions than answers.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Right, and some couples are willing to negotiate
these things on a case-by-casebasis.
So they might be like, if it'sa close friend or a colleague,
you need to ask my permission,or I might need to talk with
both of you, which I've actuallyhad happen where, you know,
someone has said, like mypartner is interested in you,
like okay, let's talk about howthat would work.
(17:41):
So they I mean that's a reallyopen, open relationship.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
It's like the meetups of people too, like some people
want to meet, like if they havea spouse and their spouse is
exploring these otherrelationships.
Sometimes they want to meetthem, sometimes they're like I'm
good with that that distanceand separation, what else?
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Some other boundaries that people might have is and
again, depending on theconfiguration they might be like
I don't want you doing an openrelationship with someone else
who's in a relationship becausethey think like, oh, that's too
many confounding variables, like, what if their partner doesn't
know, then you're helping themcommit infidelity.
(18:23):
Does that make sense?
And some people are like wedon't want people violating
their own relationships to be inan open relationship with us.
Or they might say if it issomeone in a committed
relationship, it needs to becrystal clear that their partner
knows and agrees.
So that's, that's the ethicalpart of like that term ethical.
(18:43):
There's a lot of negotiating inthis and people who they will
say, like this is what works forour relationships, but we are
not.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
We're not like encouraging violating other
people's relationships and whereit might get tricky.
Say, you have a married couplewho considers themselves to be
in an open relationship andthey're looking more for like
sexual experience with others.
But then there might be somewho are like practicing
(19:13):
polyamory, where they'recomfortable with emotional
connection.
So it's like how do younegotiate if like this person
who practices polyamory and isopen to both like sex and an
emotional connection and then,the other person is like I'm
really just here for sex and notto have this intimate
connection too.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
And I've had.
I've had people had to cut offa relationship when their sex
partner has disclosed.
I actually think I'm lookingfor a relationship and they're
like, well, that's not myboundary with my partner, it's
sex only.
So then they have to like breakoff.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
This is where, like because there is so much
variation, it gets reallycomplicated and complex, and
this is why we have the couplepodcasts to talk about the
complexity that exists in theserelationships.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
So, jenna, like you said earlier, another area that,
like you know, kind of blendsin with this is money and some
couples I've actually hadcouples who have a budget like
in they like line item.
If you're going to be in theserelationships, you're allowed to
spend like this much money amonth like navigating those
relationships.
(20:21):
Whether it's like some peopledo allow trips, some like hotel
rooms, if you're going to go outto dinner, because a lot of
times people don't want to justjump into sex, they do say
there's like a social componentof like we'll go get dinner or
drinks and then have you know, asexual encounter.
So they some people will belike you can spend this much.
(20:42):
Other people will be like, hey,you need to try to split the
expenses with the other person.
So if you're renting a room, ifyou're going out to dinner,
don't pay for them this is not adate Like they need to pay for
their food and vice versa, andthey.
So they're again like it takesmoney sometimes for these things
to happen and people don't wantto feel like you know their
(21:05):
money is being used to expresslike affection or to like take
care of someone else if they arethe primary partner.
Yeah, another thing just isabout communication.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Like people will be like if we're sitting at home
watching television and likethat's our thing that we do
together, I don't want youtexting the other person the
whole time, right, that's wherethe time piece comes in, Like
yeah, when there are these likehierarchical relationships, like
people want to feel like if Iam your primary partner, like
(21:39):
you're choosing me and our timeover these other relationships.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
And then, like, kind of the last boundary that I see
is really important is how do wedeal with this socially?
So there are boundaries aboutwho can you tell we're in an
open relationship.
Like some people are like nobodyelse can know, like in our
community.
Um, don't talk about this inpublic with other people.
Yeah, um, like you said, ifwe're doing it mainly out of
(22:10):
town, you can tell those out oftown people, right, but we're
not advertising to our socialnetwork that we're in an open
relationship and I think that'swhere, like, there's probably a
difference like between here intallahassee and like other parts
of the country, where peopletend to be more open and less
conservative.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
I do I always laugh, like with this topic because I
think about, like my husband andI I'm like we have traveled the
world.
I'm like how do other peopleknow, even when you're like a
swinger or in an open?
Really I'm like nobody has everapproached us in all of our
travels.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Maybe they have, jenna, you just haven't known.
Maybe I didn't get the cues.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
But that's where I'm like I still have so many
questions.
But I'm also like how docouples advertise this without
advertising?
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
I think the same thing.
Advertising, I think the samething.
And I do think people travel tomaybe more progressive cities
or things like that, where it'snot you know.
They can just be like, well,we're open and they don't.
They might feel like the otherperson's, like we're not, but we
get it versus in a moreconservative area If they said
that the other person might belike oh, like stay away from me,
(23:24):
you know, and so I thinkthere's a little bit more safety
in being able to express that.
Like, my brother lives in LasVegas and he says that's the
culture there and it's it's notdifficult to talk about and like
when you look at the datingapps and things like that,
people will just like kind ofpublicly advertise it in the
dating app, and that's somethingthat, like I do really respect
(23:47):
about ethical non-monogamy isthat people are transparent,
because that's what I was namingwith Ethan is.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
I see a lot of infidelity here in this part of
the country and people are notsaying I'm in an open
relationship, but then they findthemselves having affairs and I
think like one thing I doreally respect about people who
identify as being part of thiscommunity is that they have high
level of self-awareness, alevel of like their needs, and
(24:15):
are able to be transparent aboutlike what will and won't work
for them in in relationships andnegotiate these difficult
conversations with theirpartners.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Yeah.
So this is a caveat weespecially for some of our local
listeners we're not encouragingyou by any means to say that
like you should go try or talkto your partner about like an
open relationship.
I mean some people do very wellin a monogamous.
I mean a lot of people do verywell in a monogamous
relationship.
I mean some people do very wellin a monogamous.
I mean a lot of people do verywell in a monogamous
(24:46):
relationship.
But for those of you who areinterested, this was a way for
us to just kind of bring up thetopic and say like, yeah, it's
something we talk about withpeople and then I mean it's a,
it's a journey like everythingin life.
Like who we are in our twentiesand thirties may not be like
who we are in our forties andfifties, right, and you know, I
(25:07):
know in our courses we have likesexual comfort service.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Like I think, just having these conversations with
your partner, even if you're notlike let's try this out Like I
think it's just good to know,like, okay, when we brought this
up in our twenties, was it anabsolutely not like are we still
there in our thirties, forties,you know, just to be
comfortable talking about thistopic with your partner.
(25:33):
But I'm okay with peoplelooking at our, our podcast
lists and saying, like thatepisode absolutely not like.
Or I'm a little bit morecurious about this topic you
know we're.
We're not here to tell you whattype of relationship to be in,
what to do in your relationship.
We're really here as a resourceand to help you explore what
some couples think are difficulttopics.
(25:55):
So one of the things I wouldinvite you all to do is, if this
is a topic that you have morequestions about, please reach
out to us and let us know whatthose questions are, Cause we
are here to answer yourquestions and to continue these
types of conversations.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Yeah, absolutely, and they can DM us on our Instagram
.
At the couple podcast you cansend an email.
Um, also, when you look at ourshow notes, there's a little
link there that says send us thetext, and you can actually
click on that link and text usdirectly and it will come to my
phone and we can look at thatand go hey, we can answer this.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
Yes, we love hearing from our listeners, so thanks
for joining us today and we willsee you next time.
On last week's episode of the Coupled Podcast,
I interviewed Dr Ethan Schwab,who practices in Seattle
Washington and specializes inthe treatment of non-monogamous
relationships and atypicalsexuality.
Ethan discussed different typesof ethical non-monogamy trends
in his practice and offered someexpert advice and provided
resources.
Today, nari and I will continuethe discussion of ethical
(00:23):
non-monogamy in openrelationships.
We'll talk about some of theboundaries that couples
negotiate in these relationshipsand continue our discussion.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Yeah, jenna, I think this is, you know, obviously a
pretty interesting topic and Iwill say we were talking about
this before.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
where Ethan is from, ethical non-monogamy and open
relationships are kind of likeall the rage, but where we're at
in Tallahassee, florida, itit's kind of like a newer thing
or maybe even a little tabooright yeah, I find that, like in
this part of the country,people tend to be more
conservative, more religious,like religious practices
(01:03):
sometimes get in the way of alot of these conversations or
people being open to exploringthose things.
But I will say like, over time,this is a topic that is coming
up more in my sessions withindividuals and with couples, so
I think it's important for usto to open the floor and to talk
about these things.
I think a lot of people arecurious about this topic and I
(01:26):
will say like I still have morequestions than answers.
That's what I learned fromtalking with Ethan.
I tend to be somebody who'slike, deeply reflective.
And so afterwards I was like Ifeel like I could have had
multiple episodes with EthanCause I.
I still have lots of questions.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Right, and I think some of the like broad maybe
like misinformation about openor polyamorous or what's also
called ethical non-monogamousrelationships, is that anything
goes, and that's actually notthe truth.
That's not the case.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
No, and there's a lot of variation in the different
types of relationships.
So I think you know what wouldbe helpful is maybe if we talked
about how this has come up inour practices.
And I know like for you, you'vedrawn up contracts with folks
and so even just going over oneof those sample contracts I
(02:19):
think would be helpful as well.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Right, yeah, getting back to that assumption of like
anything goes, that's.
That's not the case, and therecan still be disappointment,
conflict and even infidelity inrelationships that allow for
other sexual or emotionalpartners.
So where Esther Perel said thisin her state of affairs book
(02:43):
and I love is that where thereis a boundary, a boundary can be
crossed Absolutely.
So people can have differentexpectations and their partner
can cross it knowingly, or evennot knowingly, if it hasn't been
stated.
So that's why it's so importantto have clear boundaries, like
(03:04):
everybody understands them, butalso they're clearly stated.
And also in these relationshipsI've found these things need to
be renegotiated.
So I've had couples andindividuals because I've seen
both who had these boundaries tostart with and then, when
they've gotten further along intheir relationship process,
they're like that boundary isnot working for me anymore, or
(03:27):
we tried that.
I had a negative reaction to it.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
And so that told me something Right.
Couples need to renegotiatetime and time again.
And that's where I had askedEthan, like how are people like
kind of coming to your practiceand bringing up this topic?
And he said, like one reasonpeople are coming in is because
they've tried this out withouthaving these explicit
conversations and it hasn't gonewell, and so that's why it can
be really helpful to gainresources to seek out help from
(03:56):
a couple's therapist.
And I will say, like this isnot an area where I specialize
in.
I feel like I still have a lotof questions about this topic,
but there's also not somebody torefer folks to in Tallahassee,
Florida, like if Ethan practicehere, I'd say, oh, like, let me
put you in touch with Dr EthanSchwab, but he is out in Seattle
(04:18):
Washington and so that I thinkis tricky.
But I will say I'm a very likeopen couple therapist and so I'm
willing to do that work andexplore this with my clients.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Yeah, I agree, jenna.
I would say like I'm not acertified sex therapist and
although we have like sextherapy integrated into our
training, I feel like I can havethose boundary discussions Like
I feel like I have enough liketraining and knowledge and
practice and boundary settingand like about clear
communication, that, that thatwhole piece of like let's draw
(04:53):
up a contract or let's let'stalk about how realistic these
boundaries are, like I can, Ifeel comfortable doing all that.
But when it gets into some ofthe more nuanced stuff or maybe
some of the like sexualcomponents because not all open
relationships and polyamorythey're not just about sex,
right, some of these are aboutactually navigating like
(05:15):
emotional connection Rightexactly, and so sometimes I'm
like, you know, this isemotional connection.
Yeah, like we can talk aboutthat emotional connection, yeah,
like we can talk about that.
But then when it gets more intosome of the rules and
expectations of the polyamorykind of like community and
culture, I'm like, oh, you mayhave to go to like an online
resource or like a coach orsomething like that, cause I'm
(05:37):
not an expert in that area.
Yeah, so let's um, I have thislike kind of conglomeration of
like different rules that I'veworked on with couples and
individuals for their open andpolyamorous relationships, so I
thought we could just like kindof go through what some of those
are.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
I can kind of jump in when some of those same topics
have come up in my individualand couple sessions, to where
people have explored this topicRight my individual and couple
sessions to where people haveexplored this topic Right.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
So one very common rule is no physical, like sexual
, interactions at our house,which again, I think some people
would be like, oh, anythinggoes, but people are very
protective of their spaces thatthey share with their partner.
So that is one across the board.
That kind of surprised mebecause I thought, well then,
where else do you do thesethings?
Speaker 1 (06:28):
It's got to be outside of the house for a lot
of folks yes.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Yeah, and they are, yeah, typically renting hotel
rooms or going to the otherperson's house if that's allowed
, but common, no, no, no, youknow stuff happening in our
house.
Another one that's actuallypretty common too is just like
(06:51):
negotiating Can you spend thenight with this person.
So some people are like sex isfine, but they view like
sleeping with that person in thesame bed as like a violation of
intimacy, which again like kindof makes sense to me, right,
because, um, sex is like aninteraction, but you you had
said this in a previous podcastlike to sleep with someone, you
(07:14):
have to feel safe and bevulnerable, and that feels too
vulnerable, right.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Well, for like open relationships where it's like I
don't want you to be havingthese like emotional connections
with other people, like I wantyou to negotiate this
relationship for for sex, andthat's where, like I learned
from Ethan, like there's so muchvariation in like this umbrella
term of ethical non-monogamy.
But, yeah, in openrelationships where couples are
(07:39):
like it's okay to go outside ofour relationship for sex.
It's okay to go outside of ourrelationship for sex.
They're not wanting thatintimacy to be built, so they
don't want you to spend thenight with somebody else.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Well, yeah, because when you spend the night, too,
there could be cuddling and likepillow talk.
And here's the other thingPeople who are having open
relationships, even if it's likepolyamory.
Where you can, you can have anemotional connection to someone
else.
What if you have kids at home,right, and they're like I don't
want to explain to the kids,like where you are, why you're
not home at bedtime, why you'renot here in the morning.
(08:14):
You need to be here to do thatnighttime and morning routine.
So, um, there can be lots ofreasons why people are like
those long, extended sleepovers.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
No, they're not happening.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Now some couples will make the exception that they
you can have an overnight, likerendezvous or whatever, but I
don't want to be in town, whichagain like speaks to me about
this.
Like you have to prioritize ourrelationship, so if I'm not
here it doesn't matter, butdon't choose to spend the night
with someone when I'm here intown.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Well, and time was something Ethan and I named as
well, Cause I do think that's abig piece Like when couples have
explored this topic with me.
It is like I don't want you tochoose to spend time with this
other person If it's getting inthe way of our quality time
together, right.
So like I'm not comfortablewith you signing up for like a
(09:09):
date or going to have sex withthis other person if that means
like I'm sitting at home andlike have the expectation to
spend time with you.
So I do think time is this liketricky thing in some of the
relationships that I've exploredwith folks.
Like some have a rule that likeit can only be out of town,
Like if you're on like yourconferences or like traveling
(09:31):
for whatever reason that's whereyou can explore like these
other relationships, but notlike in town.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Right, well, and Jenna.
That just reminds me like wetalk a lot with our couples
about time apart versus timetogether and like when can you
do your hobbies?
Like, and a lot of timeshobbies can't interfere with
family time right.
So it's almost like this is likeput into that category of like
an extracurricular hobby.
It's not necessary, but if youhave free time you can engage it
(09:59):
.
Yes, yeah, um also.
Uh, some people will say noweekend trips and this gets
connected to you're not going tohave romantic getaways or
rendezvous.
Yes, if you're already out oftown, make it happen, but don't
take away again from our time.
Don't go on vacations with thisperson.
(10:21):
If you're going to go onvacation, it's going to be with
me.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Yeah, Our time, and that's where finances plays a
role in this too.
Right, Like you're not going tobe extravagantly treating this
other person you know in insteadof me, so, and that's where,
like that's where Ethan talkedto about these different types
of relationships.
So I think like we're speakinga little bit more to like an
(10:45):
open relationship where there'sthis like primary partner, yeah,
and that's a good point.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Um, and in working with some of my individuals, um,
especially if they happen to besingle and then entering a
polyamorous relationship withsomeone else, they'll talk with
them about, like, do you have aprimary partner?
And they might be, like I wantto be your primary partner.
You can still maintain yourother partners, but, like, I
(11:12):
expect more.
And that has to be negotiatedbetween them and this other
person because they, while thatother person, is engaging in
polyamory, they might be likeI'm not looking for a primary
partner.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Yeah, and this is something like Ethan and I
talked about is like you have tohave a high level of
self-awareness as like what youneed from relationships, what
your expectations are fromrelationships I feel like
there's a big piece ofself-awareness that plays a role
in developing these contractsand like what your expectations
(11:47):
are for a partner or formultiple partners.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Right, and I've.
I've found that some of myindividuals that I see, who I've
seen for like a long time intherapy, who then come to me and
say, Nari, I'm, I'm thinkingabout doing this they will then
tell me, like, what theirexpectations are.
And it's really neat as atherapist when you know someone
for a while to look at theclient and be like, are you
(12:11):
really going to be okay withthat?
You know, and they'll look atme and they'll they'll say, like
well, why, why are you askingme that question?
And I'll say, like well, basedon things we've talked about
before, or like some of yourtrauma or issues, like it would
seem like this might push onthat a little bit, and they're
like you know what?
That's something for me tothink about so.
(12:32):
I do think that's a really greatpoint, jenna, is that you have
to be like honest with yourself.
Jenna is that you have to belike honest with yourself and
you know, talking about with atherapist who may know you too
could like challenge that alittle bit, right.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Yeah, and I think that was one of like Ethan's
tips and suggestions too is tonot just like jump into this not
to hear the sample contract andjust say like let's start this
tomorrow.
Like this takes a lot ofplanning, a lot of thoughts some
work on self-awareness as well,yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Um, now some clients will tell me in this week this
gets into like how much do wewant to know?
Some clients will say Iabsolutely want to know who
you've been with, especially ifthere's a chance of me like
running into them in town orkind of like knowing them.
(13:26):
Um, so that is also a boundary.
It's like I need to know whothe other person is.
It doesn't mean I'm gonna likelike tease them or tease you
about them.
I'm not going to confront them,but I just kind of, if I'm
walking into a situation, wantto know who that person?
is and don't want to be left out.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Right.
Well, and this is where, like Ithink, location of where you're
exploring these things plays arole in this right.
So Ethan is in Seattle, whichis like such a large area.
In Tallahassee, this feels likea very small town, like there
are not many degrees ofseparation.
So that might make sense herethat people are like I want to
know, just so that I might beinteracting with somebody who
(14:06):
you've explored this openrelationship with, Um, whereas,
like I guess, when I've workedwith folks who are more on the
side of like you can do thatwhen you're away they don't want
to know the details, the names,it can be different.
So again, so much variation.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Right, that's a good point, jenna.
And that brings up another partof contracts is, some clients
want to know, like not thedetails, but they want like a
debrief.
So they just kind of want toknow, like, did you meet with
someone today?
Because some couples requireadvance permission.
So they'll say, like, beforeyou do this, I need to know.
(14:45):
Other people will say, like, Idon't need to know in the
advance, but I do want to knowby the end of the day.
Hey, I met up with someonetoday.
So again like, and what I foundis I actually had someone who
didn't tell their partner thatthey met up with someone that
that day and, like that partnerfelt pretty wounded.
They were, like they found outlater, Like why didn't you tell
(15:08):
me that was part of our contract?
Like why are you hiding thisfrom me?
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Yep, yep.
So that's where I like, I thinkagain, like you can have this
contract, but I found that itneeds to be renegotiated and
people need to stick to thecontract too.
Like if you sit down and have aconversation about, like this
is what we're going to put intoplace, it can feel like a
betrayal if people don't followthe rules of the contract.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Right, don't follow the rules of the contract Right
Now.
The other kind of portion ofthat is in the debrief.
Some partners are really openin knowing like all the things,
like what happened, like whatdid you do, where did you go,
and other partners just want toknow it happened and like
nothing else.
So you have to respect yourpartners like like some of their
(16:01):
privacy too.
Some people have more privateboundaries and some people have
more open boundaries and somepartners like I'll tell you
whatever you want to know.
But others are like I'm morecomfortable with just saying it
happened and like I don't wantto disclose anymore.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
And so that's.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
That's another kind of boundary to negotiate.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Well, cause you can't unknow the details.
That's what I always tellpartners, Even when, like
affairs come up infidelity.
It's like you might have all ofthese questions but, like, once
you hear the information, youcan't take that back.
So, like you know, that's agood question to kind of ask
yourself.
Will I be able to handle theanswers to these questions that
(16:39):
I'm asking?
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Another boundary might be like friends and
colleagues.
Some people are like no friendsof mine and no colleagues, Like
they don't want this to expandinto their social network, and I
mean you can be like.
One thing I like to remember isyou can be jealous over your
friends, Like all of us havelike close friends and we might
(17:02):
be jealous that our one friendis getting closer of another
friend.
So then if you invite a friendinto your relationship, that's
there can be some naturaljealousy there too.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
This is where I'm like this gets tricky right
Again, where I like have morequestions than answers.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Right, and some couples are willing to negotiate
these things on a case-by-casebasis.
So they might be like, if it'sa close friend or a colleague,
you need to ask my permission,or I might need to talk with
both of you, which I've actuallyhad happen where, you know,
someone has said, like mypartner is interested in you,
like okay, let's talk about howthat would work.
(17:41):
So they I mean that's a reallyopen, open relationship.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
It's like the meetups of people too, like some people
want to meet, like if they havea spouse and their spouse is
exploring these otherrelationships.
Sometimes they want to meetthem, sometimes they're like I'm
good with that that distanceand separation, what else?
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Some other boundaries that people might have is and
again, depending on theconfiguration they might be like
I don't want you doing an openrelationship with someone else
who's in a relationship becausethey think like, oh, that's too
many confounding variables, like, what if their partner doesn't
know, then you're helping themcommit infidelity.
(18:23):
Does that make sense?
And some people are like wedon't want people violating
their own relationships to be inan open relationship with us.
Or they might say if it issomeone in a committed
relationship, it needs to becrystal clear that their partner
knows and agrees.
So that's, that's the ethicalpart of like that term ethical.
(18:43):
There's a lot of negotiating inthis and people who they will
say, like this is what works forour relationships, but we are
not.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
We're not like encouraging violating other
people's relationships and whereit might get tricky.
Say, you have a married couplewho considers themselves to be
in an open relationship andthey're looking more for like
sexual experience with others.
But then there might be somewho are like practicing
(19:13):
polyamory, where they'recomfortable with emotional
connection.
So it's like how do younegotiate if like this person
who practices polyamory and isopen to both like sex and an
emotional connection and then,the other person is like I'm
really just here for sex and notto have this intimate
connection too.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
And I've had.
I've had people had to cut offa relationship when their sex
partner has disclosed.
I actually think I'm lookingfor a relationship and they're
like, well, that's not myboundary with my partner, it's
sex only.
So then they have to like breakoff.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
This is where, like because there is so much
variation, it gets reallycomplicated and complex, and
this is why we have the couplepodcasts to talk about the
complexity that exists in theserelationships.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
So, jenna, like you said earlier, another area that,
like you know, kind of blendsin with this is money and some
couples I've actually hadcouples who have a budget like
in they like line item.
If you're going to be in theserelationships, you're allowed to
spend like this much money amonth like navigating those
relationships.
(20:21):
Whether it's like some peopledo allow trips, some like hotel
rooms, if you're going to go outto dinner, because a lot of
times people don't want to justjump into sex, they do say
there's like a social componentof like we'll go get dinner or
drinks and then have you know, asexual encounter.
So they some people will belike you can spend this much.
(20:42):
Other people will be like, hey,you need to try to split the
expenses with the other person.
So if you're renting a room, ifyou're going out to dinner,
don't pay for them this is not adate Like they need to pay for
their food and vice versa, andthey.
So they're again like it takesmoney sometimes for these things
to happen and people don't wantto feel like you know their
(21:05):
money is being used to expresslike affection or to like take
care of someone else if they arethe primary partner.
Yeah, another thing just isabout communication.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Like people will be like if we're sitting at home
watching television and likethat's our thing that we do
together, I don't want youtexting the other person the
whole time, right, that's wherethe time piece comes in, Like
yeah, when there are these likehierarchical relationships, like
people want to feel like if Iam your primary partner, like
(21:39):
you're choosing me and our timeover these other relationships.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
And then, like, kind of the last boundary that I see
is really important is how do wedeal with this socially?
So there are boundaries aboutwho can you tell we're in an
open relationship.
Like some people are like nobodyelse can know, like in our
community.
Um, don't talk about this inpublic with other people.
Yeah, um, like you said, ifwe're doing it mainly out of
(22:10):
town, you can tell those out oftown people, right, but we're
not advertising to our socialnetwork that we're in an open
relationship and I think that'swhere, like, there's probably a
difference like between here intallahassee and like other parts
of the country, where peopletend to be more open and less
conservative.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
I do I always laugh, like with this topic because I
think about, like my husband andI I'm like we have traveled the
world.
I'm like how do other peopleknow, even when you're like a
swinger or in an open?
Really I'm like nobody has everapproached us in all of our
travels.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Maybe they have, jenna, you just haven't known.
Maybe I didn't get the cues.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
But that's where I'm like I still have so many
questions.
But I'm also like how docouples advertise this without
advertising?
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
I think the same thing.
Advertising, I think the samething.
And I do think people travel tomaybe more progressive cities
or things like that, where it'snot you know.
They can just be like, well,we're open and they don't.
They might feel like the otherperson's, like we're not, but we
get it versus in a moreconservative area If they said
that the other person might belike oh, like stay away from me,
(23:24):
you know, and so I thinkthere's a little bit more safety
in being able to express that.
Like, my brother lives in LasVegas and he says that's the
culture there and it's it's notdifficult to talk about and like
when you look at the datingapps and things like that,
people will just like kind ofpublicly advertise it in the
dating app, and that's somethingthat, like I do really respect
(23:47):
about ethical non-monogamy isthat people are transparent,
because that's what I was namingwith Ethan is.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
I see a lot of infidelity here in this part of
the country and people are notsaying I'm in an open
relationship, but then they findthemselves having affairs and I
think like one thing I doreally respect about people who
identify as being part of thiscommunity is that they have high
level of self-awareness, alevel of like their needs, and
(24:15):
are able to be transparent aboutlike what will and won't work
for them in in relationships andnegotiate these difficult
conversations with theirpartners.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Yeah.
So this is a caveat weespecially for some of our local
listeners we're not encouragingyou by any means to say that
like you should go try or talkto your partner about like an
open relationship.
I mean some people do very wellin a monogamous.
I mean a lot of people do verywell in a monogamous
relationship.
I mean some people do very wellin a monogamous.
I mean a lot of people do verywell in a monogamous
(24:46):
relationship.
But for those of you who areinterested, this was a way for
us to just kind of bring up thetopic and say like, yeah, it's
something we talk about withpeople and then I mean it's a,
it's a journey like everythingin life.
Like who we are in our twentiesand thirties may not be like
who we are in our forties andfifties, right, and you know, I
(25:07):
know in our courses we have likesexual comfort service.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Like I think, just having these conversations with
your partner, even if you're notlike let's try this out Like I
think it's just good to know,like, okay, when we brought this
up in our twenties, was it anabsolutely not like are we still
there in our thirties, forties,you know, just to be
comfortable talking about thistopic with your partner.
(25:33):
But I'm okay with peoplelooking at our, our podcast
lists and saying, like thatepisode absolutely not like.
Or I'm a little bit morecurious about this topic you
know we're.
We're not here to tell you whattype of relationship to be in,
what to do in your relationship.
We're really here as a resourceand to help you explore what
some couples think are difficulttopics.
(25:55):
So one of the things I wouldinvite you all to do is, if this
is a topic that you have morequestions about, please reach
out to us and let us know whatthose questions are, Cause we
are here to answer yourquestions and to continue these
types of conversations.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Yeah, absolutely, and they can DM us on our Instagram
.
At the couple podcast you cansend an email.
Um, also, when you look at ourshow notes, there's a little
link there that says send us thetext, and you can actually
click on that link and text usdirectly and it will come to my
phone and we can look at thatand go hey, we can answer this.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
Yes, we love hearing from our listeners, so thanks
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