August 13, 2025 • 25 mins
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Season 2 Episode 10: What's Happening on the Couch? Real Talk from Real Therapists
Ever felt like you're the only one struggling with your particular relationship challenge? You're not. Dr. Jenna and Dr. Nari pull back the curtain on what they're actually seeing in their practice right now, sharing the patterns and common challenges that emerge across different couples and families. From the comfort of transparency comes validation—knowing countless others are navigating similar waters and finding their way through.
We explore several recurring themes in our therapy offices today. Many couples are wrestling with family planning timelines and the grief of pregnancy loss, while young parents struggle to maintain connection amid the demands of raising children. Trust issues appear frequently, ranging from traditional infidelity to what one therapist calls "micro-cheating"—those gray-area interactions that feel like betrayals but are often minimized by the offending partner. We also dive into boundary work, helping couples protect their relationships from external demands like work pressures and extended family expectations.
Perhaps most illuminating is the discussion about timing—how the average couple waits six years after experiencing distress before seeking therapy, often leading to what one therapist calls the "fed up wife" scenario. By then, one partner has reached their breaking point after years of unmet needs and unsuccessful requests for change, making reconciliation significantly more challenging. The therapists advocate for preventative relationship maintenance, comparing it to regular car care—addressing issues when warning lights first appear rather than waiting for a complete breakdown.
Whether you're currently in a relationship struggle or simply want to better understand relationship dynamics, this episode offers both validation and hope. Listen now to gain perspective on common relationship patterns and hear professional insights that might just help you navigate your own connections with greater awareness and intentionality.
Dr. Jenna and Dr. Nari are the Licensed Marriage and Family Therapists behind the Coupled Podcast. They both have private practices where they work with individuals, couples, and families in Florida. The two are ready to shake up the world of couples therapy and want to extend resources beyond the couples they see in their private practices.
If you like this episode and want to know more about taking the next step to improve your communication, connection, and intimacy, head over to our websites to learn more about our Staying Coupled and Getting Coupled courses. These online courses give you the flexibility to improve your relationship from the comfort and convenience of your home. The Staying Coupled course is for couples who want to do the work to connect, communicate, and have the healthiest relationship possible. The Getting Coupled course is for premarital couples wanting to learn the essentials for a successful marriage. Topics in both courses include the main issues couples face:
- Communication
- Family Boundaries
- Family Finances
- Sex
- Family Planning
- Division of Labor
- Couple Activities
For more information, visit drjennascott.com/courses or drnarijeter.com/courses
Disclaimer: This podcast is not a substitute for therapy. If you’re struggling, we encourage you to seek support from a licensed therapist in your state. Our relationship suggestions and content may not be applicable or advised for relationships with intimate partner violence (IPV). If you need resources, contact the National Domestic Violence Hotl
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
On today's episode, Jenna and I are going to make it
a little casual.
We're going to jump intotalking about some of the
current work we're doing withpeople in couple and family
therapy.
Jenna and I have similar lotsof overlap but we also have
different areas of expertise andwe wanted to share this
(00:21):
perspective that you're notalone.
A lot of times people will comein and they'll think they're
the only one dealing with thisproblem or they're, you know,
unique, and we want you to knowthat you're not alone in your
struggles.
Many of the couples andfamilies we're working with have
similar issues and are learningsimilar strategies on how to
(00:41):
deal with those issues.
So in today's episode, you'lllearn more about our different
specialization areas.
And also, just a reminder wewant you to know we're not
sharing any confidentialinformation.
These are just generalities ortrends that we're seeing.
We never want to compromiseconfidentiality or privacy.
That's the most important thing.
Therapy is a safe space andboth Jenna and I take that very
(01:05):
seriously.
So, Jenna, tell me about someof the things you're working on
with your clients right now.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Sure.
So one of the areas that I'msuper passionate about is
parenting, and this has actuallybeen the case Like since I
started my training.
I found a passion for workingwith parents.
I've definitely have a trend ofworking on family planning with
folks, so I found that a lot ofpeople are coming to me talking
(01:35):
about timelines.
Sometimes it's premaritalcouples or couples who have just
gotten married and they'retrying to decide when is it best
for us to have kids.
People are waiting longer toget married and I feel like the
timeline is a big piece becausepeople will acknowledge like we
waited to get married and weknow there's this like
(01:58):
biological clock that's ticking,and so really talking through
that and being intentional abouthaving kids is a big part of my
practice.
I also have found that with thattopic of family planning, folks
are coming into process loss,pregnancy loss with me.
A lot of couples willexperience infertility and
(02:21):
there's a lot of grief in that.
Those who have explored IVF anddifferent ways to have kids and
maybe have not had successthere will oftentimes come in
and explore that, and somethingthat I'm finding just in couple
work that I'm doing, but alsolike relational work too with
families, is I'm seeing thatsometimes people have differing
(02:44):
needs, right, and that can comeup around loss or pregnancy,
right.
So one way that maybe partner Ais grieving that loss, they
might need space, time alone toprocess this loss.
Maybe partner B wants moreconnection, wants more time
together, and so like they mighthave differing needs, and so
(03:07):
one of the ways to negotiate andhave those conversations I
think can be in therapy.
The other thing I work with isjust a lot of like young parents
, so parents who aretransitioning into parenthood,
and they're like oh, we have torenegotiate a lot of aspects of
our relationship.
What maybe worked before we hadkids, we need to renegotiate a
lot of aspects of ourrelationship.
What maybe worked before we hadkids.
We need to have some moreintentional conversations about
(03:30):
that.
Couples who have just lostconnection through parenting, so
those who have young kids andwho are trying to really like
carve out time for theirrelationship and to reconnect.
So that's a big theme.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Yeah, I find that too , Jenna.
Lots of people know their lifeis going to change when they
have kids, but you can't alwaysanticipate how.
And then, when it does, it canbe very like jarring to be like
how do we, how do we fix this?
Or like, how do we find our newnormal?
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Exactly, and you know it's interesting because, as I
reflect on the work that I'mcurrently doing, like those who
are parents of very young kids,I think it's also hard for them
to get in to therapy regularly.
It's really hard to jugglefamily life and working and
(04:23):
parenting and also carve outtime in the middle of the
workday to come into therapy.
So I I am working on that withkids, though I do think a major
barrier to couples work is justbeing able to make time for
couples therapy.
Um, some other topics like justrebuilding trust, and I think a
(04:46):
lot of times when we think oflike broken trust, we often
think about infidelity and ofcourse, that's one of the things
I work on with my couples.
A lot of people find me postinfidelity, but I'm also finding
that like trust can be brokenin a lot of small ways in a
relationship that can kind oferode over time, and so that's a
(05:06):
topic I'm focusing on withfolks is just how to rebuild
trust, and sometimes you know weare just naming the little
things that have happened overtime.
So maybe like inconsistency ornot following through on things
have eroded trust over the years, or like you said this, but
like your actions didn't alignwith what you were telling me
(05:29):
and so, over time, that erodestrust.
So trust has been a big thingthat I'm working on with couples
who have experienced infidelityand even those who who have not
.
Another thing is boundary work.
So a lot of I think what I'mfocusing on with couples is just
like things outside of theirrelationship.
(05:52):
Right that I'm like we have todifferentiate, like what is
noise?
What are you responsible for inyour relationship?
And this can be like, say, I'mworking with an older couple who
has kids.
It's like, okay, how much ofthis is your responsibility?
Like where do we need to putsome boundaries in place with
your kids or with extendedfamily members?
(06:13):
So a lot of my questions tolike my couples is like how can
we protect this relationshipfrom?
You know, outsiders, from work?
You know, a lot of times I'mtalking with couples about work
boundaries as well, so boundarywork is a big one.
Um, how about for you?
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Um, so a lot of those same things but some little
different areas.
So I am really passionate aboutwhat I call like the marital
spectrum, so obviously couplestherapy.
But I do a lot of likeuncoupling work.
Um, so in those areas I help alot of couples navigate the
divorce process in couplestherapy.
(06:58):
So sometimes those people arepeople I was working with and
they've decided like no, we'regoing to proceed with just
divorce.
But then they're like, can youhelp us navigate divorce?
And people don't want to spenda lot of money on divorce
lawyers.
Like in our town divorcelawyers cost two times as much
(07:18):
as we do per hour.
And let me be clear, I'm notgiving legal advice.
But what we're doing is likekind of helping them discuss,
you know, like you know how dowe want to like divide up assets
or like who's going to keep thehome, or how do we want to
handle parenting and custody andthose types of things, um, and
(07:39):
so they want to kind of likehave those preliminary talks and
like a non-hostile environmentand then take them to their
divorce lawyers.
Or we talked about in aprevious podcast episode with
Rachel Born Traeger do thecollaborative divorce.
And in the collaborative divorce, if the two people like come to
the table with stuff ironed out, they're not going to challenge
(08:01):
them.
They're going to say, if youguys agree on this, like let's,
let's go for it, it's a moreseamless process.
I find a lot of people, um andyou know, I know, divorce is
extremely painful Like it can beone of the most painful things
you experience in life.
But I'm really proud of thepeople in my office who are
willing to have thoseconversations because, um, you
(08:25):
know, adding animosity andvindication and spitefulness and
all that stuff like on top ofpain is it's just a lot.
It's a lot to processemotionally.
So I think when they come totherapy and they are able to do
that and what they feel like isa more safe and collaborative
environment, they walk awaystill being able to maybe like
have, like love and respect foreach other, but just know that
(08:48):
they can't be together.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
I think I found that too.
I, when I was an undergrad, Iwas actually thinking about
going into family law and Iworked at a family law firm and
you know it, I felt like therewas so much animosity and
divorces and fighting and likeas a couple of therapists.
I think what I've realized overtime is people, when they do
make the decision to get adivorce, a lot of people want to
(09:09):
do that in a healthy way andthey're open to coming to
therapy to figure out how can wedo this in a healthy way, how
can we maintain a healthy family?
How can we prioritize our kidsas well?
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Yeah, and that leads to I do a lot of co-parenting
work, so I'm not what you wouldcall like like a like a parent
coordinator.
I'm like I'm not going to getin the nuts and bolts of like
everyday things and because alot of times in those situations
parents are there is a lot oflike animosity between them and
like I don't, I don't have likethe training there's actually a
(09:48):
certification to be a parentcoordinator.
But I will work with parentswho want to have what's called
like a collaborativeco-parenting style and it's
basically what it sounds like.
We want to confer with eachother and work together, and
lots of parents are coming inbefore, during and even after
divorce.
So I'm meeting with alreadydivorced couples who are sharing
(10:10):
custody of their kids and theywant to discuss co-parenting
issues, and so the focus is noton their relationship although
elements of that come up butit's discussing issues that
might be happening at one orboth houses how do they handle a
school decision or somebehavioral things or emotional
things.
Some parents will come in andbe like, hey, our kid is about
(10:32):
to go off to college and we justwant to talk about like how
we're going to help support ourchild, like as they navigate
interviews and visitations atcolleges and beyond, you know,
like when they're at college.
Sometimes I've actually hadpeople come in where their child
is in college and they haveconcerns Like my child is not
doing well, they're coming homefor this summer.
(10:54):
Can we meet to like talk abouthow we can support our kiddo
this summer?
So they really are focusing ondoing what's best for their
child and I will say they'retransparent where they will say
like we may have some differingopinions but we're willing to
trust like a professional.
(11:14):
We're both like saying likemaybe you think this and I think
this, but like maybe we need athird party and they want a
neutral third party, someonewho's like just basically saying
like this is, and a lot oftimes I'll say, well,
developmentally, this is whereyour kid is at, this is what
you're telling me your valuesare.
I actually am hearing the samevalue.
(11:35):
Let's talk about how to make itmore consistent with like
discipline or structure orthings like that.
I really love that work because, again, I think it's beautiful
when two people who've decidedwe're not going to be married
anymore but are able to putaside any personal differences
or feelings to focus on thedevelopment of their kids.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
I have been so proud of both the individuals who I've
worked with and couples whohave navigated divorces because,
like you said, I really dothink they're prioritizing like
healthy ways of doing this Right.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
And I I do think, like Jenna, to your point about
parenting.
When you can show up for yourkid in a way that's like
sacrificial or you know, kind ofputting like your feelings
aside, it makes you feel good asa parent and I know, as a
parent myself, I'm riddled withguilt, doubt, regret like all
(12:35):
the time of like am I doing thisright?
But to, to be able to go to atherapist and like, come up with
solutions, like with your expartner, I do think like helps
you, at the end of the day, feelgood about your parenting Well
and you know this too like a lotof times when I'm meeting with
couples or even individuals arefinding my practice and they're
(12:58):
really unhappy or unsatisfied intheir marriage.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
If they're parenting, sometimes that is a barrier to
getting divorced Right.
So I think once they've madethe decision like I can't
continue on with thisrelationship but I still want to
prioritize the kids, likethat's where they are reaching
out to you and others who canhelp them through that process.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
And like you, jenna, I'm still doing lots of
infidelity.
But I think one thing that'scoming up a lot is what is
labeled like micro cheating, sonot these full blown like sexual
or emotional affairs, but maybetalking with people on messages
or DMs that their partner islike I didn't know you were
(13:44):
keeping in touch with thatperson or you work with them,
but I didn't know you werekeeping in touch with that
person or you work with them,but I didn't know you were
having these conversationsoutside of work, maybe not
cutting off relationships withexes.
So people still find thatreally like betraying.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Yeah, yeah, like where they name it as like these
inappropriate interactions withothers, but they're seeing like
a pattern of that.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Yeah, and I actually would say like, for me,
clinically, it's morechallenging to deal with that
because in my mind I look at theperson who's kind of been
betrayed and I know like they'rethinking, okay, I saw these
messages, but what else has beenhappening?
And the other person's likeit's just been this.
But it's really hard to dealwith someone's suspicion Right,
(14:28):
and I don't want to invalidatethat person, to be like if
you're saying this is betrayaland it hurts, I get you.
And the other person's like,well, I'll just cut it off and
it'll be done, but their partnerstill feels like that lack of
trust, you know.
And so it can be, I think,challenging in a different way,
let's just say, than like a verytraditional affair where it's
(14:50):
very clear where the line wascrossed it was like crossed 100
yards past versus like thisperson feels like they
definitely crossed a line, butlike they're also invalidating
that.
I feel betrayed by this.
Yeah, that I feel betrayed bythis.
Yeah, I'm also seeing a lot ofand this is not a clinical term,
but this is a Nari term of whatI would call like the fed up
(15:18):
wife, meaning they're coming inand they have, you know,
children.
These women are often working,you know, full-time, high level
jobs but they are also the housemanager, the family manager.
They feel like they're drowning, they've been like they're
doing it all.
Yeah, they're asking for helpand they feel like when they've
asked for help, their partnergets defensive, minimizes their
(15:40):
feelings, maybe even like,villainizes their feelings, like
you're too much, you're neverhappy, and they they're.
They've just like had enough.
Got their wits in and a lot oftimes that the sad part is, when
I'm seeing these people incouples, the wife is like I
asked for couples therapy twoyears ago, like three years ago,
(16:00):
and they told me no.
So now they've.
They've felt rejected andpushed down and they're like the
only reason he has come tocouples therapy is because we're
not talking.
We live like roommates.
And now he's motivated and it'svery like.
I think for me, as like anempathetic person, is very
painful to be in a room withthat couple, because I feel for
(16:22):
the fed up wife.
I feel like, yeah, like you're,you've been disappointed and
feeling and you reached out forhelp.
Your needs were not met, yeah.
But I also feel for the guy,cause he's like I'm here, I'm
showing up, I'm willing to dothe work.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Yeah, Like.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Ooh right.
But like yeah, and so it's.
It's really hard and I feellike I am really trying to like
push them towards the middleright, to be like can, can we
still work on this?
Um?
Speaker 2 (16:53):
are you finding that, like the fed up wife, is
reaching out for individual work, or that they're coming in more
for therapy or a mix?
Speaker 1 (17:01):
like a mix.
So I'll have some fed up wiveswho are coming who are very much
like I need to make a decisionon whether or not I should get a
divorce.
And I will say, jenna of thosewomen, a lot of times everything
they're telling me is they wanta divorce.
They just don't know how orwhen to execute it, and so
(17:24):
that's hard right.
But I will say, like I also seea mix of couples where the wife
is fed up, and I've had wivescome who are willing to come in,
but they will tell theirhusbands like I am done, like we
are done and they feel liketheir husbands haven't heard
that.
And then I have another likekind of larger majority of
(17:45):
couples where the the, the manis like desperate and the wife
is like I'm hanging on by athread.
But I am willing to do the workif you are willing to do the
work.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Yeah, yeah, and that's I mean that topic is one
of the reasons, like three yearsago I had reached out to you to
say, like let's do some coupleswork, because that's what I was
finding is that like people arewaiting so long to come in for
couples therapy and likesometimes one partner had
already made up their mind thatthey were going to end the
(18:17):
relationship and get divorced,and sometimes that would happen,
you know, after one, two, threesessions it would play out so
and that's something I'm I'mstill seeing in my practice too-
yeah, jenna, I tell people thatall the time when people are
like, oh you, you do a podcast,like you know what's it on, and
and I'll say, you know it's onall these different topics, like
(18:40):
we don't have like one focused,like mission per se, topic wise
, but our overall mission is wewant to like de-stigmatize
couples therapy, make it normal,but also help people identify,
like when should you come in?
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Are there other resources you should use?
Because for me, that has beenthe thing I've seen, Like I've
seen so much lately.
I'm like, oh, if they had justcome in, like a year ago or you
know whatever, like we wouldhave been so much more workable,
like there would have been lesspain and damage done, and I'm
seeing a shift too.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Like I will have couples now who are coming in
more preventatively and I'm likethere's not a risk in that.
I can acknowledge that couplestherapy is expensive, it takes
time, but like how great thatcouples are coming in for four
or five sessions with me and I'mgiving them a lot of positive
feedback on their relationshipand some like areas that they
can boost up.
(19:35):
That's so much better thanwaiting so long and that's what
we know.
Like research shows that theaverage couple waits six years
after experiencing distress tocome into couples therapy.
So that you know that's thereality is that we are getting
couples who have waited too longand I think that is one of the
things I see individually in mypractice.
(19:55):
Like a lot of times people arecoming in individually they say
I'm like not ready to do thecouple work, but I want to
explore if and when to leavethis relationship.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
Right, I just I think back to like what I was told
about therapy, and my master'sprogram is this idea of like we
have a car and we have tomaintain our car.
Like the light comes on and itsays change your oil.
I have a light on in my car nowmy brake fluid needs to be
changed?
Yeah, Brake fluid, you like.
Rotate your tires you get themaligned.
(20:32):
And so when the light comes on,it often isn't that your car is
broken.
It's saying if you want yourcar to function well, you will
address these issues.
Now there are broken lights,you know.
But and if we I mean I knowevery time we go to maintain our
car it's like $300, $400 easily.
But that's the way I look atlike couples therapy maintenance
is you can just start withsomeone and be like we want to
come once a month.
(20:52):
Or even I have couples who comelike once a quarter.
They just want to come and likehave like an open conversation.
And then a lot of times thosecouples I'll be like well, do
you?
Here's a resource, like here'san exercise you can do at home
to like address this issue, andthen, if that goes fine, they'll
come back next quarter, orthey'll get home and they'll be
(21:15):
like oh, we had a really hardtime with that, we need to come
back in, right?
So I do want people to knowlike you're not signing a
contract with us, we're not agym membership.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Like you don't have to come so many sessions a week
right, but it is helpful to havesome like I do think there's an
accountability piece thereright, like, and for some of us
like maybe we do great with homeworkouts- and we can maintain
that, but sometimes it's helpfulto go see a coach, a
nutritionist, a trainer and tohave those check-ins, and I feel
like we're similar to that withmental health and relationship
(21:49):
health.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
And Jenna, the last thing I'mseeing in my practices and this
is kind of a new area is a lotof what I would call the
mother-daughter duos, and theseare adult women and their
mothers, right.
And these are adult women andtheir mothers right.
And really the main issue I'mseeing is navigating.
(22:27):
Once the adult daughter haschildren, you know just like we
need to discuss our issues withparenting, like with our partner
.
If we have a grandparent in thepicture, there might be certain
boundaries that need to be saidof like you're not going to
discipline my kids, or we don'ttalk about food that way, or we
don't talk about body image.
But I'm also seeing, um,another issue of just maybe a
difference in expectations forwhat the adult daughter expected
(22:49):
of the grandparent, versus thegrandparent saying no, like
that's not the kind ofgrandparent I want to be, like I
don't want to watch my childrenfull time, or I just want to
enjoy them on the weekends, orwe need to.
You need to ask before thedropping them off at my house.
So I'm seeing a lot of motherdaughters go to therapy now and
(23:11):
they are trying to likenegotiate.
As we have this thirdgeneration, how do we all like
kind of wrap around and care foreach other.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
A lot of work, a lot to work out when it comes to
relationships Right.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Well, thank you for listening to this episode.
I hope it just validates thatyou know one of these issues
that you are not alone in.
And again, jenna and I alwaysrecommend that you know when you
are dealing with an issue.
You know seeking help is neveranything to be ashamed of, but
(23:47):
we also encourage you to seekhelp from professionals who are
trained or specialized in yourarea of concern.
Yes, absolutely.
See you next time.
On today's episode, Jenna and I are going to make it
a little casual.
We're going to jump intotalking about some of the
current work we're doing withpeople in couple and family
therapy.
Jenna and I have similar lotsof overlap but we also have
different areas of expertise andwe wanted to share this
(00:21):
perspective that you're notalone.
A lot of times people will comein and they'll think they're
the only one dealing with thisproblem or they're, you know,
unique, and we want you to knowthat you're not alone in your
struggles.
Many of the couples andfamilies we're working with have
similar issues and are learningsimilar strategies on how to
(00:41):
deal with those issues.
So in today's episode, you'lllearn more about our different
specialization areas.
And also, just a reminder wewant you to know we're not
sharing any confidentialinformation.
These are just generalities ortrends that we're seeing.
We never want to compromiseconfidentiality or privacy.
That's the most important thing.
Therapy is a safe space andboth Jenna and I take that very
(01:05):
seriously.
So, Jenna, tell me about someof the things you're working on
with your clients right now.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Sure.
So one of the areas that I'msuper passionate about is
parenting, and this has actuallybeen the case Like since I
started my training.
I found a passion for workingwith parents.
I've definitely have a trend ofworking on family planning with
folks, so I found that a lot ofpeople are coming to me talking
(01:35):
about timelines.
Sometimes it's premaritalcouples or couples who have just
gotten married and they'retrying to decide when is it best
for us to have kids.
People are waiting longer toget married and I feel like the
timeline is a big piece becausepeople will acknowledge like we
waited to get married and weknow there's this like
(01:58):
biological clock that's ticking,and so really talking through
that and being intentional abouthaving kids is a big part of my
practice.
I also have found that with thattopic of family planning, folks
are coming into process loss,pregnancy loss with me.
A lot of couples willexperience infertility and
(02:21):
there's a lot of grief in that.
Those who have explored IVF anddifferent ways to have kids and
maybe have not had successthere will oftentimes come in
and explore that, and somethingthat I'm finding just in couple
work that I'm doing, but alsolike relational work too with
families, is I'm seeing thatsometimes people have differing
(02:44):
needs, right, and that can comeup around loss or pregnancy,
right.
So one way that maybe partner Ais grieving that loss, they
might need space, time alone toprocess this loss.
Maybe partner B wants moreconnection, wants more time
together, and so like they mighthave differing needs, and so
(03:07):
one of the ways to negotiate andhave those conversations I
think can be in therapy.
The other thing I work with isjust a lot of like young parents
, so parents who aretransitioning into parenthood,
and they're like oh, we have torenegotiate a lot of aspects of
our relationship.
What maybe worked before we hadkids, we need to renegotiate a
lot of aspects of ourrelationship.
What maybe worked before we hadkids.
We need to have some moreintentional conversations about
(03:30):
that.
Couples who have just lostconnection through parenting, so
those who have young kids andwho are trying to really like
carve out time for theirrelationship and to reconnect.
So that's a big theme.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Yeah, I find that too , Jenna.
Lots of people know their lifeis going to change when they
have kids, but you can't alwaysanticipate how.
And then, when it does, it canbe very like jarring to be like
how do we, how do we fix this?
Or like, how do we find our newnormal?
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Exactly, and you know it's interesting because, as I
reflect on the work that I'mcurrently doing, like those who
are parents of very young kids,I think it's also hard for them
to get in to therapy regularly.
It's really hard to jugglefamily life and working and
(04:23):
parenting and also carve outtime in the middle of the
workday to come into therapy.
So I I am working on that withkids, though I do think a major
barrier to couples work is justbeing able to make time for
couples therapy.
Um, some other topics like justrebuilding trust, and I think a
(04:46):
lot of times when we think oflike broken trust, we often
think about infidelity and ofcourse, that's one of the things
I work on with my couples.
A lot of people find me postinfidelity, but I'm also finding
that like trust can be brokenin a lot of small ways in a
relationship that can kind oferode over time, and so that's a
(05:06):
topic I'm focusing on withfolks is just how to rebuild
trust, and sometimes you know weare just naming the little
things that have happened overtime.
So maybe like inconsistency ornot following through on things
have eroded trust over the years, or like you said this, but
like your actions didn't alignwith what you were telling me
(05:29):
and so, over time, that erodestrust.
So trust has been a big thingthat I'm working on with couples
who have experienced infidelityand even those who who have not
.
Another thing is boundary work.
So a lot of I think what I'mfocusing on with couples is just
like things outside of theirrelationship.
(05:52):
Right that I'm like we have todifferentiate, like what is
noise?
What are you responsible for inyour relationship?
And this can be like, say, I'mworking with an older couple who
has kids.
It's like, okay, how much ofthis is your responsibility?
Like where do we need to putsome boundaries in place with
your kids or with extendedfamily members?
(06:13):
So a lot of my questions tolike my couples is like how can
we protect this relationshipfrom?
You know, outsiders, from work?
You know, a lot of times I'mtalking with couples about work
boundaries as well, so boundarywork is a big one.
Um, how about for you?
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Um, so a lot of those same things but some little
different areas.
So I am really passionate aboutwhat I call like the marital
spectrum, so obviously couplestherapy.
But I do a lot of likeuncoupling work.
Um, so in those areas I help alot of couples navigate the
divorce process in couplestherapy.
(06:58):
So sometimes those people arepeople I was working with and
they've decided like no, we'regoing to proceed with just
divorce.
But then they're like, can youhelp us navigate divorce?
And people don't want to spenda lot of money on divorce
lawyers.
Like in our town divorcelawyers cost two times as much
(07:18):
as we do per hour.
And let me be clear, I'm notgiving legal advice.
But what we're doing is likekind of helping them discuss,
you know, like you know how dowe want to like divide up assets
or like who's going to keep thehome, or how do we want to
handle parenting and custody andthose types of things, um, and
(07:39):
so they want to kind of likehave those preliminary talks and
like a non-hostile environmentand then take them to their
divorce lawyers.
Or we talked about in aprevious podcast episode with
Rachel Born Traeger do thecollaborative divorce.
And in the collaborative divorce, if the two people like come to
the table with stuff ironed out, they're not going to challenge
(08:01):
them.
They're going to say, if youguys agree on this, like let's,
let's go for it, it's a moreseamless process.
I find a lot of people, um andyou know, I know, divorce is
extremely painful Like it can beone of the most painful things
you experience in life.
But I'm really proud of thepeople in my office who are
willing to have thoseconversations because, um, you
(08:25):
know, adding animosity andvindication and spitefulness and
all that stuff like on top ofpain is it's just a lot.
It's a lot to processemotionally.
So I think when they come totherapy and they are able to do
that and what they feel like isa more safe and collaborative
environment, they walk awaystill being able to maybe like
have, like love and respect foreach other, but just know that
(08:48):
they can't be together.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
I think I found that too.
I, when I was an undergrad, Iwas actually thinking about
going into family law and Iworked at a family law firm and
you know it, I felt like therewas so much animosity and
divorces and fighting and likeas a couple of therapists.
I think what I've realized overtime is people, when they do
make the decision to get adivorce, a lot of people want to
(09:09):
do that in a healthy way andthey're open to coming to
therapy to figure out how can wedo this in a healthy way, how
can we maintain a healthy family?
How can we prioritize our kidsas well?
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Yeah, and that leads to I do a lot of co-parenting
work, so I'm not what you wouldcall like like a like a parent
coordinator.
I'm like I'm not going to getin the nuts and bolts of like
everyday things and because alot of times in those situations
parents are there is a lot oflike animosity between them and
like I don't, I don't have likethe training there's actually a
(09:48):
certification to be a parentcoordinator.
But I will work with parentswho want to have what's called
like a collaborativeco-parenting style and it's
basically what it sounds like.
We want to confer with eachother and work together, and
lots of parents are coming inbefore, during and even after
divorce.
So I'm meeting with alreadydivorced couples who are sharing
(10:10):
custody of their kids and theywant to discuss co-parenting
issues, and so the focus is noton their relationship although
elements of that come up butit's discussing issues that
might be happening at one orboth houses how do they handle a
school decision or somebehavioral things or emotional
things.
Some parents will come in andbe like, hey, our kid is about
(10:32):
to go off to college and we justwant to talk about like how
we're going to help support ourchild, like as they navigate
interviews and visitations atcolleges and beyond, you know,
like when they're at college.
Sometimes I've actually hadpeople come in where their child
is in college and they haveconcerns Like my child is not
doing well, they're coming homefor this summer.
(10:54):
Can we meet to like talk abouthow we can support our kiddo
this summer?
So they really are focusing ondoing what's best for their
child and I will say they'retransparent where they will say
like we may have some differingopinions but we're willing to
trust like a professional.
(11:14):
We're both like saying likemaybe you think this and I think
this, but like maybe we need athird party and they want a
neutral third party, someonewho's like just basically saying
like this is, and a lot oftimes I'll say, well,
developmentally, this is whereyour kid is at, this is what
you're telling me your valuesare.
I actually am hearing the samevalue.
(11:35):
Let's talk about how to make itmore consistent with like
discipline or structure orthings like that.
I really love that work because, again, I think it's beautiful
when two people who've decidedwe're not going to be married
anymore but are able to putaside any personal differences
or feelings to focus on thedevelopment of their kids.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
I have been so proud of both the individuals who I've
worked with and couples whohave navigated divorces because,
like you said, I really dothink they're prioritizing like
healthy ways of doing this Right.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
And I I do think, like Jenna, to your point about
parenting.
When you can show up for yourkid in a way that's like
sacrificial or you know, kind ofputting like your feelings
aside, it makes you feel good asa parent and I know, as a
parent myself, I'm riddled withguilt, doubt, regret like all
(12:35):
the time of like am I doing thisright?
But to, to be able to go to atherapist and like, come up with
solutions, like with your expartner, I do think like helps
you, at the end of the day, feelgood about your parenting Well
and you know this too like a lotof times when I'm meeting with
couples or even individuals arefinding my practice and they're
(12:58):
really unhappy or unsatisfied intheir marriage.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
If they're parenting, sometimes that is a barrier to
getting divorced Right.
So I think once they've madethe decision like I can't
continue on with thisrelationship but I still want to
prioritize the kids, likethat's where they are reaching
out to you and others who canhelp them through that process.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
And like you, jenna, I'm still doing lots of
infidelity.
But I think one thing that'scoming up a lot is what is
labeled like micro cheating, sonot these full blown like sexual
or emotional affairs, but maybetalking with people on messages
or DMs that their partner islike I didn't know you were
(13:44):
keeping in touch with thatperson or you work with them,
but I didn't know you werekeeping in touch with that
person or you work with them,but I didn't know you were
having these conversationsoutside of work, maybe not
cutting off relationships withexes.
So people still find thatreally like betraying.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Yeah, yeah, like where they name it as like these
inappropriate interactions withothers, but they're seeing like
a pattern of that.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Yeah, and I actually would say like, for me,
clinically, it's morechallenging to deal with that
because in my mind I look at theperson who's kind of been
betrayed and I know like they'rethinking, okay, I saw these
messages, but what else has beenhappening?
And the other person's likeit's just been this.
But it's really hard to dealwith someone's suspicion Right,
(14:28):
and I don't want to invalidatethat person, to be like if
you're saying this is betrayaland it hurts, I get you.
And the other person's like,well, I'll just cut it off and
it'll be done, but their partnerstill feels like that lack of
trust, you know.
And so it can be, I think,challenging in a different way,
let's just say, than like a verytraditional affair where it's
(14:50):
very clear where the line wascrossed it was like crossed 100
yards past versus like thisperson feels like they
definitely crossed a line, butlike they're also invalidating
that.
I feel betrayed by this.
Yeah, that I feel betrayed bythis.
Yeah, I'm also seeing a lot ofand this is not a clinical term,
but this is a Nari term of whatI would call like the fed up
(15:18):
wife, meaning they're coming inand they have, you know,
children.
These women are often working,you know, full-time, high level
jobs but they are also the housemanager, the family manager.
They feel like they're drowning, they've been like they're
doing it all.
Yeah, they're asking for helpand they feel like when they've
asked for help, their partnergets defensive, minimizes their
(15:40):
feelings, maybe even like,villainizes their feelings, like
you're too much, you're neverhappy, and they they're.
They've just like had enough.
Got their wits in and a lot oftimes that the sad part is, when
I'm seeing these people incouples, the wife is like I
asked for couples therapy twoyears ago, like three years ago,
(16:00):
and they told me no.
So now they've.
They've felt rejected andpushed down and they're like the
only reason he has come tocouples therapy is because we're
not talking.
We live like roommates.
And now he's motivated and it'svery like.
I think for me, as like anempathetic person, is very
painful to be in a room withthat couple, because I feel for
(16:22):
the fed up wife.
I feel like, yeah, like you're,you've been disappointed and
feeling and you reached out forhelp.
Your needs were not met, yeah.
But I also feel for the guy,cause he's like I'm here, I'm
showing up, I'm willing to dothe work.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Yeah, Like.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Ooh right.
But like yeah, and so it's.
It's really hard and I feellike I am really trying to like
push them towards the middleright, to be like can, can we
still work on this?
Um?
Speaker 2 (16:53):
are you finding that, like the fed up wife, is
reaching out for individual work, or that they're coming in more
for therapy or a mix?
Speaker 1 (17:01):
like a mix.
So I'll have some fed up wiveswho are coming who are very much
like I need to make a decisionon whether or not I should get a
divorce.
And I will say, jenna of thosewomen, a lot of times everything
they're telling me is they wanta divorce.
They just don't know how orwhen to execute it, and so
(17:24):
that's hard right.
But I will say, like I also seea mix of couples where the wife
is fed up, and I've had wivescome who are willing to come in,
but they will tell theirhusbands like I am done, like we
are done and they feel liketheir husbands haven't heard
that.
And then I have another likekind of larger majority of
(17:45):
couples where the the, the manis like desperate and the wife
is like I'm hanging on by athread.
But I am willing to do the workif you are willing to do the
work.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Yeah, yeah, and that's I mean that topic is one
of the reasons, like three yearsago I had reached out to you to
say, like let's do some coupleswork, because that's what I was
finding is that like people arewaiting so long to come in for
couples therapy and likesometimes one partner had
already made up their mind thatthey were going to end the
(18:17):
relationship and get divorced,and sometimes that would happen,
you know, after one, two, threesessions it would play out so
and that's something I'm I'mstill seeing in my practice too-
yeah, jenna, I tell people thatall the time when people are
like, oh you, you do a podcast,like you know what's it on, and
and I'll say, you know it's onall these different topics, like
(18:40):
we don't have like one focused,like mission per se, topic wise
, but our overall mission is wewant to like de-stigmatize
couples therapy, make it normal,but also help people identify,
like when should you come in?
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Are there other resources you should use?
Because for me, that has beenthe thing I've seen, Like I've
seen so much lately.
I'm like, oh, if they had justcome in, like a year ago or you
know whatever, like we wouldhave been so much more workable,
like there would have been lesspain and damage done, and I'm
seeing a shift too.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Like I will have couples now who are coming in
more preventatively and I'm likethere's not a risk in that.
I can acknowledge that couplestherapy is expensive, it takes
time, but like how great thatcouples are coming in for four
or five sessions with me and I'mgiving them a lot of positive
feedback on their relationshipand some like areas that they
can boost up.
(19:35):
That's so much better thanwaiting so long and that's what
we know.
Like research shows that theaverage couple waits six years
after experiencing distress tocome into couples therapy.
So that you know that's thereality is that we are getting
couples who have waited too longand I think that is one of the
things I see individually in mypractice.
(19:55):
Like a lot of times people arecoming in individually they say
I'm like not ready to do thecouple work, but I want to
explore if and when to leavethis relationship.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
Right, I just I think back to like what I was told
about therapy, and my master'sprogram is this idea of like we
have a car and we have tomaintain our car.
Like the light comes on and itsays change your oil.
I have a light on in my car nowmy brake fluid needs to be
changed?
Yeah, Brake fluid, you like.
Rotate your tires you get themaligned.
(20:32):
And so when the light comes on,it often isn't that your car is
broken.
It's saying if you want yourcar to function well, you will
address these issues.
Now there are broken lights,you know.
But and if we I mean I knowevery time we go to maintain our
car it's like $300, $400 easily.
But that's the way I look atlike couples therapy maintenance
is you can just start withsomeone and be like we want to
come once a month.
(20:52):
Or even I have couples who comelike once a quarter.
They just want to come and likehave like an open conversation.
And then a lot of times thosecouples I'll be like well, do
you?
Here's a resource, like here'san exercise you can do at home
to like address this issue, andthen, if that goes fine, they'll
come back next quarter, orthey'll get home and they'll be
(21:15):
like oh, we had a really hardtime with that, we need to come
back in, right?
So I do want people to knowlike you're not signing a
contract with us, we're not agym membership.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Like you don't have to come so many sessions a week
right, but it is helpful to havesome like I do think there's an
accountability piece thereright, like, and for some of us
like maybe we do great with homeworkouts- and we can maintain
that, but sometimes it's helpfulto go see a coach, a
nutritionist, a trainer and tohave those check-ins, and I feel
like we're similar to that withmental health and relationship
(21:49):
health.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
And Jenna, the last thing I'mseeing in my practices and this
is kind of a new area is a lotof what I would call the
mother-daughter duos, and theseare adult women and their
mothers, right.
And these are adult women andtheir mothers right.
And really the main issue I'mseeing is navigating.
(22:27):
Once the adult daughter haschildren, you know just like we
need to discuss our issues withparenting, like with our partner
.
If we have a grandparent in thepicture, there might be certain
boundaries that need to be saidof like you're not going to
discipline my kids, or we don'ttalk about food that way, or we
don't talk about body image.
But I'm also seeing, um,another issue of just maybe a
difference in expectations forwhat the adult daughter expected
(22:49):
of the grandparent, versus thegrandparent saying no, like
that's not the kind ofgrandparent I want to be, like I
don't want to watch my childrenfull time, or I just want to
enjoy them on the weekends, orwe need to.
You need to ask before thedropping them off at my house.
So I'm seeing a lot of motherdaughters go to therapy now and
(23:11):
they are trying to likenegotiate.
As we have this thirdgeneration, how do we all like
kind of wrap around and care foreach other.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
A lot of work, a lot to work out when it comes to
relationships Right.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Well, thank you for listening to this episode.
I hope it just validates thatyou know one of these issues
that you are not alone in.
And again, jenna and I alwaysrecommend that you know when you
are dealing with an issue.
You know seeking help is neveranything to be ashamed of, but
(23:47):
we also encourage you to seekhelp from professionals who are
trained or specialized in yourarea of concern.
Yes, absolutely.
See you next time.
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