September 30, 2024 • 46 mins
Have you ever been around someone who just can't take "no" for an answer? It seems that it becomes a challenge for them to talk you out of it. That's what boundaries are all about, and why they are so important in relationships. Listen in to find out more!
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(00:01):
Imagine for a moment that youare a road weary traveler.
You're tired, you're hungry,and wondering if there will ever
bea safe place to rest.
You've been told there's anoutpost ahead that provides safety
information for the road ahead and
people who understand what the journey
is like.
You keep scanning the horizon,hoping against hope that it will
be there.
(00:25):
Then, as you come over a risein the terrain, you suddenly catch
aglimpse of it.
There it stands, beckoning youto come and find the rest you need.
You're moments away from the outpost.
Well, welcome, everybody, tothe outpost.
I am Doctor Ray Mitch, your host.
(00:46):
I'm quite honestly, I'mshocked that I am able to pull this
off tonight.
I have packed quite apotpourri of disaster into one week.
I might say part of that isbecause I am.
I contracted Covid on Saturdayof last week, and then Sunday, I
was in pretty much misery.
(01:14):
Monday got a little bitbetter, and so we move on basically
from there.
Funny thing about this is thatit has attacked my voice.
And so when I look back intime, not that this is information
anybodyreally cares that much about, but
I'll say it anyway, is that being
ateacher, your voice is everything.
(01:41):
Actually, as a counselor, yourvoice is everything as well.
You really need a functioningvoice to be able to be heard and
everything else, obviously.
But I look back in time overthe years of teaching, which is now
16 years, and it seems like every
fall, I would be afflicted with laryngitis,
and I would lose my voice for a few
days, and I would.
(02:06):
Every year, I would auditionfor the voice of James Earl Jones
andDarth Vader because I was in such
alow register, and so that was always
there.
And looking back at it, Ican't help but wonder that actually,
thatI may have been afflicted by Covid
before we had the hysteria over Covid
and everything that went along with
it since 2020, essentially.
(02:38):
So here we are.
And my voice soundssurprisingly better than I thought
itwould by this time, and it is strong
enough to carry me through the week
in the teaching that I have to do
and everything else.
So thanks for joining me byway of all of that.
Thanks for joining me.
You're listening to theOutpost podcast.
(02:59):
I'm Doctor Ray Mitch, your host.
I am delighted that you takensome time out to listen in on the
podcast.
What we're looking at andtalking about this, this few, I don't
know, five or six weeks worth of
material here is what.
(03:19):
What do the relationships thatexist within the outpost look like?
I mean, what's the, what's thebest way to go about doing those
things?
And ultimately, rather thanmaking it particular just to the
up, let's talk about it in the context
of christian community, or any kind
of community, or any kind of group,
for that matter.
(03:40):
And the last couple of weeks,we've been looking at not only how
do we handle truth, not only the
big t truth of God's truth and things
that are applicable to everybody,
but howdo we handle little t truth that
isunique to me?
And I try to communicate thatto people in a variety of ways.
(04:02):
And the real travesty, atleast in my mind, is our tendency
to tryto apply big t truth principles and
thoughts and stuff from scripture
and etcetera onto the back of the little
ttruth of where we actually live.
(04:23):
And usually there is such amassive disconnect between those
thatthe person ends up feeling like,
well, I guess what I thought and
felt really didn't matter.
The only thing that matters isGod's truth.
And so I just need to suck itup, buttercup, and just try to live
life that way.
(04:49):
It's an artificial way to doit because we invite people to split
themselves between what they really
experience and what they really feel
versus how they should feel or what
they should believe.
And that chasm that existsbetween those two are really where
relationship is forged and where
connection is forged.
(05:12):
And that's, I think, to somedegree, what has contributed to a
lot of disconnect, ultimately, for
a lot of people, even from the church
itself.
You know, the church reallydoesn't have anything to offer me
because it doesn't have a way for
me to connect with it.
I can get beat up, you know, Ican get beat about my head and shoulders
with big t truth and all the truth
ofGod's word.
(05:39):
And while that may be true, itis true.
But while that may be true,that doesn't connect with the life
I'm living right now.
And the thing we've got upsidedown and backwards is somehow we
think that engaging people through
bigteachers, because that's what they
should believe, that's what they
should think, is the way to helping
them embrace and understand the character
of God.
(06:12):
And we've got it backwardsbecause ultimately, which might be,
might not actually be all that good,
is that they understand the character
ofGod by how we relate to them, not
so much by what we say to them.
And that's a key point I thinkwe have to contend with when we're
talking about the outpost and maybe
even in the future, lord willing,
wecould have outpost groups where people
gather, talk about life as they are
living it and as it is, not as it
should be, and connect on that basis
and be able to find where God exists
in that, where God, you know, what
God's word actually has to say about
that, but nothing sooner than we
should, because the reality is big
t truth that is ill timed, that is
done usually for the benefit of the
speaker, not the listener, is because
Iwant to be able to feel like I'm
doing something helpful.
(07:13):
I'm doing something thatsomebody should have and believe.
Then I am imposing that onthem and saying, this is what you
should do and should believe rather
than.
I wanna understand what lifeis like for you first, before I jump
in with that.
So what I was saying, big ttruth, which, like I said, is true
when it is ill timed, it is not timed
according to the need of the person
that's being spoken to, is a weapon
and it's experienced as a weapon.
(07:49):
And unfortunately, in a lot ofcases, people feel like almost embarrassed
that they feel wounded by that, because
they shouldn't.
They shouldn't.
And so we kind of forget aboutthe fact that we're diminishing somebody's
humanity by sidestepping those little
t realities that they live with.
(08:16):
And by doing so, wecommunicate to them that their humanity
really doesn't matter.
And you can get alltheological about it with me all
you want and say, well, their humanity
is broken and they're sinful and
blah, blah, blah, whatever.
That's true.
That is true.
(08:36):
I'm not going to debate that point.
That is true.
But so what?
How do I move somebody inauthentic relationship to God and
to Jesus?
And it is by the power of myrelationship with them.
(08:57):
And if I am not so good withthat, then that's the face of God
that they will conclude exists rather
than the one that is the face of
Jesus because he was the face of
God.
And so what the outpostattempts to do is to build bridges
backto faith for a lot of people that
have left it behind but long for
that kind of connection that I was
just talking about or its purpose
is tostrengthen these bridges, the bridges
of faith that people have that ultimately
end up being built on us, being fully
who we are, otherwise known as authenticity.
(09:45):
For us to understand whatgrace really means and what it really
does to empower us to grow and to
learn and to find acceptance and
live in the tension between grace
andtruth, which I've already talked
alittle bit about, and ultimately,
in thecontext of the outpost and the kind
of relationships that we have there,
it's being known and knowing other
people and being willing to be known.
(10:16):
And we're not so sure we wantthat, because if people know us the
way we know us, they're not going
tolike us either.
So we better not be known.
And the reality is, is that weactually believe that if they knew
us the way we know us, they would
come to the same conclusion that
wedo instead of offering us grace.
(10:39):
How many people have youtalked to?
Or even you might have saidthis, I am great at giving grace
toother people, but I'm terrible at
giving grace to myself.
And that should be all, yourealize, because if we're terrible
atgiving grace to ourselves, and we
essentially, we essentially assume
that other people will do what we
do to ourselves.
(11:04):
And that's fundamentally false.
Even if you would check it outor test it out, you would find that.
So we're trying ultimately, insmall ways, slow but sure, hopefully,
tocreate a space where the doubters
andthe wounded and the confused and
beat up and beat down and the bent
and bruised who feel like their lives
are disappointment into God, can
feel accepted enough to be known
andknow others, because ultimately we
have to feel accepted to stretch
ourselves, to be willing to know
other people.
(11:42):
And what my hope is is thatthese outposts could be a place where
people actually bump into the biblical
Jesus as he is, not as they have
grown to assume he is, because those
may not be the same.
So that's, that's kind of leadup to where we're going tonight.
(12:03):
And so pull up a chair, getcomfortable and relax.
And, and hopefully the stuffthat I want to talk about tonight
willbe immediately useful to you.
We, like I said the last timewe talked about truth, and then the,
the episode last week was on how
dowe play God and how we try to control
other people.
(12:27):
And the antidote to controland controlling behavior ultimately,
ishaving a commitment to freedom and
to grace and to being willing to
let people make mistakes, including
ourselves.
And so the third one that wecome to is, the way that I put it,
is fence.
(12:49):
Fence?
What?
Fence.
And the funny thing about itis that when you look at our world
around us, there are boundaries everywhere.
We call them property lines.
In the world of real estate,we call them kind of my personal
space.
(13:10):
We call that literally, in alot of places there are fences.
There are ways that wedemarcate what we're responsible
for andwhat we're not with our lawns.
And sometimes hedges.
I actually grew up across thestreet from somebody that had a hedge.
(13:30):
And I always just saw it as achallenge to figure out a way through
it, but it was a way of demarcating
whattheir lawn was or what they were
responsible for.
And so, in the physical world,we have lots of examples of boundaries,
including walls of rooms and doors
that let us into those rooms and
things like that, but even more so
in the physical world, outside of
our homes with fences.
(14:05):
And I, when I first wasintroduced to this, and I actually
wroteabout it, I have a devotional on
the website called setting New Boundaries,
and it's about healthy relationships.
And when I first learned aboutthis from the two authors that I
am going to be using their material,
material from, and that's John Townsend
and Henry Cloud.
(14:32):
And I worked with them, theywere in the.
The California clinic of theMinersmeyer Clinic, and I was in
the Wheaton one.
And when they first releasedtheir book, Boundaries, me and two
other friends of mine who were therapists
in the Chicago clinic were conscripted
toput together a 365 day devotional
on boundaries.
(14:58):
And that's essentially whatthat digital devotional on my website
actually is.
It allows you to.
To get a devotion in youremail once a week for two years,
basically, where you're able to think
through the boundaries in your life,
in your relationships, how you want
to handle it, where you might be
going wrong, all of that.
(15:25):
So enough of the shamelessplug that's there for your enjoyment.
And if you want to get it, youcan subscribe.
It's less than a cost of alatte today.
It used to be about equal to alatte years ago, but that's long
gone.
So that's there, and you'rewelcome to hit it.
(15:47):
And you can go to resources onthe website to find it.
So in the physical world, wehave lots of examples everywhere
about boundaries.
What about in the spiritualworld, though?
And one way to think aboutboundaries in the spiritual world
isthey literally define my soul and
our soul, or our heart, depending
on whatthe phrases are that are used within
scripture, usually entail the immaterial
part of us.
(16:18):
The heart, generally inscripture includes our dreams and
our will and our choices and all
the things, our emotions.
Because heart isn't just our emotions.
The heart, at least as definedwithin scripture, is really all of
us, ultimately.
(16:40):
But our soul ends up beingkind of the immaterial part of us,
where the spirit of God resides,
if weaccept and invite him into our lives.
And so in the spiritual world,boundaries define our soul.
Now, let me give you an example.
(17:01):
And it's from proverbs.
It's one that a lot of peopleare relatively familiar with, and
it's from proverbs 423, if you're
interested and want to look it up,
it says, watch over your heart with
all diligence.
For from it flows the springsof life.
Now, if you think about thatclosely and carefully, what you will
find is that our heart is likened
to aspring, and out of that spring flows
everything into our lives and into
other people's lives, for that matter.
(17:35):
And Jesus refers to thisregularly in a lot of his teaching,
that,that it's what is in the.
In man's heart and theoverflow of that that contaminates
him, notwhat he puts into his stomach and
comes out of his digestive tract.
And so when proverbs, thewriter of proverbs, says, watch over
your heart with all diligence, he's
not talking about something that
isa outlaw that should be caged or.
(18:06):
Or jailed or imprisoned.
It is something that should bewatched over with care and a sense
ofimmense value.
For from it flows the springsof life.
And the thing to understand isthat oftentimes when we see behaviors
andthings in us that we don't like,
whatwe're actually looking at is the
trash that has accumulated downstream
fromthe spring itself.
(18:43):
And we try to clean out allthe trash downstream, hoping that
that will clean everything up.
But we don't take the time tolook at what's going on in the spring.
And if from another point ofview, you could look at the sermon
onthe mount that way.
Is that sermon on the mount just.
Just by way of commentary?
(19:04):
Not that you asked for it, butyou're going to get it anyway.
The sermon on the mount justtells you where it was.
It doesn't tell you anythingabout the content.
I mean, imagine if you were togo to church and the sermon was entitled
message from the name of whatever
churchyou're going to, and that tells you
nothing of what it is.
(19:30):
But if you were really tosummarize, what the sermon on the
mount is about is you will find that
it's about the human heart.
It's about looking at thisvery thing of watching over our hearts.
We can notice all the thingsdownstream that come out of it, but
that doesn't tell us enough for us
to go back upstream and find out
what's going on in that spring.
(19:58):
And so, boundaries define oursoul, and they make it clear that
weneed to take care of that spring
of life.
Because from it flowseverything else.
Okay, so that's the first one.
It defines our soul.
The second thing is, isboundaries help us to understand
what's meand what's not me.
(20:19):
And, you know, kids learn thisrelatively early, probably around
thetwo year old range ish, from a yemenite
developmental point of view.
And we know it becausesuddenly they have discovered the
word mine, or me, for that matter.
(20:40):
So they begin to realize thatme is separate from somebody else.
And boundaries are that thing.
Boundaries are me versus not me.
You're not me, but I am me.
Right?
And so proverbs 1410 pointsthis out when it says, the heart
knows its own bitterness and no one
shares its joy.
(21:04):
In other words, I'm the onlyone that knows what bitterness is
like for me.
You may have a hint of it fromyour own or your own joy, but you
don't know it from what.
How I experience it, becauseyou're not me and no other way to
really put it.
(21:26):
And so they define our soul.
They define me and not me.
And they also define what I'mresponsible for versus what I am
responsible how I can be responsible
to someone.
Now, again, a verse from scripture.
Paul talks about this inGalatians, and he says something
mosteverybody knows.
(21:49):
This first verse.
Bear one another's burdens andthereby fulfill the law of Christ.
That's true.
Everybody knows this verse.
And.
And usually this verse is onethat I point to and say, this is
the.
The boulders and backpacksverse is the way I put it, because
burdens, literally in the Greek,
means boulder.
So bear one another'sboulders, which means something so
big, so crushing, somebody can't
possibly carry it alone.
(22:15):
And now I am responsible forsomebody else when they are attempting
tocarry a burden so big that they can't
do it alone.
And I come alongside of them.
But two verses later, Paulsays this.
He says, for each one willbear his own load and load.
(22:35):
Here is, if you look at it,it's really where we get the word
knapsack.
And so in our world, thatwould be the equivalent of backpack.
And it would.
It would carry the same connotation.
Because ultimately, in yourbackpack, whatever you're carrying
withyou, whatever it might be, messenger
bagor whatever you carry, only stuff
foryou, it is solely yours and yours
alone.
(23:07):
And Paul is saying, look, youcarry your own backpack.
You need to do that and beresponsible for that.
But when you see somebodycarrying a burden and a boulder so
big they can't, then you need to
be responsible for them and come
alongside and help them with that.
On the other hand, somebodycarrying their own backpack, I can
be responsible to them and say, well
done, keep going.
(23:34):
Don't give up.
This is.
This is something that you'reresponsible for.
How can I empower you to takethat responsibility?
So being responsible tosomebody is being an encourager,
asupporter, a person to empower the
other person.
But being responsible forsomebody is.
Is reserved for when they arecarrying something so big, so crushing,
they can't possibly do it alone.
(24:01):
So there's.
It defines our soul.
It defines who I am and whoI'm not.
It defines what I'mresponsible for versus how I'm responsible
to other people.
And then finally, it's also away of understanding, keeping the
good in and the bad out.
It's a simplified way ofsaying it, but ultimately, this is
where the fence analogy is very effective,
because fences, I don't know that
you've probably ever come across
a fence.
(24:35):
It doesn't have a gate in it.
The question is, who is thekeeper of the gate in your life?
Are you or someone else?
And so ultimately, the gatethat is part of a fence, not a wall,
not a wall, but as part of a fence.
And fence is good because youcan come up to the fence and converse
with somebody at the fence and they're
in their world and you're in yours,
and there's separation, and you can
have a conversation over the fence
and still be separate.
(25:11):
But we need gates that we areresponsible for.
I am the keeper of my gate.
No one else is.
And no one else is entitled tocome in that gate unless I invite
andallow them to do that.
We have plenty of people inour lives.
I know a lot of people thatsay this, that feel entitled to come
to that gate because of their position
or their relationship or relation
andreally take offense that we would
actually choose to keep the gate
shut.
(25:50):
So we.
We have a right to say no.
And that's where, that's oneof the examples of boundaries that
we have.
Actually, in a lot of ways,the hardest time doing is to simply
use the.
Is to use the simplest word ofour vocabulary, which is only two
letters, and that's no.
(26:13):
Partly because we're sure thatthe other person's going to leave
us.
And if I say no, then theywon't like us or they.
They will get disappointed, orthey'll get angry, and we don't like
that because now we're responsible
for that.
And their emotions are not a boulder.
Their emotions are their own thing.
(26:35):
They need to takeresponsibility for that themselves.
So we need gates.
And gates keep the good in andthe bad out.
And that's how we exercise,having good boundaries and saying
noto certain situations or to certain
people or whatever that might be.
So, like I said, examples ofboundaries in our everyday world
would include words like no, speaking
the truth rather than a falsehood,
orsaying something just to keep somebody
happy.
(27:09):
And sometimes even distance, Imean, just geographical cures, if
you will, is what oftentimes people,
how they set boundaries, because
theycan't set boundaries and the person
isclose to them.
And that's some other issuethat's a lot bigger than I have time
to talk about.
(27:31):
But emotional distance orgeographical distance is not uncommon,
because we feel we have.
The other person has such swayover us, for whatever reason.
I'm not throwing stones.
They have such sway over usfor a variety of reasons that we
can't seemingly say no.
(27:51):
And when that's the case, weseparate ourselves and create emotional
or geographical distance with them.
The other one, which is verysimple in terms of a boundary, is
just taking time away.
And so time is also aboundary, and what goes into it.
Now, what I want to do is walkyou through four different, well,
actually five different groups of
people.
(28:19):
And more than likely one ofthese will probably get your attention
orpoke you in some way, maybe more.
And that's okay.
It doesn't mean that you'redoomed at all, but it just points
outthe area that you may need to pay
attention to.
And John and Henry, in theirbook, boundaries separate people
bywhat they call compliance and avoidance
and non responsives and controllers.
(28:48):
I call it something a little different.
Same concepts still indebtedto them, but I call it something
a littledifferent to make it a little bit
more understandable.
Because when I say compliant,most people don't immediately understand
what I'm talking about.
(29:09):
So I've relabeled these groupsof people.
This is not a profile.
Doesn't mean that you do itall the time.
It doesn't mean, as a matterof fact, you probably don't.
It is probably in certainsituations with certain relationships,
thatthese things happen.
And so there may be pieces andparts of each one of these that you
find familiarity with in some way.
(29:35):
Okay, so here's the first group.
The first group is what I callthe go along to get along people.
And ultimately, they say yesto everything, including the bad.
And these folks oftentimeshave very fuzzy or indistinct boundaries
with other people.
And so when somebody elsefeels bad, they.
They feel bad.
(29:56):
Too, partly because the otherperson's feeling bad and they feel
responsible for that.
And so they, their tendencythis go along to get along, folks.
Their tendency is to try tominimize their differences with other
people.
And unfortunately, we havebought into the lie that I have to
minimize the differences in order
tohave anything that will connect me
to the other person.
(30:25):
Instead of seeing differencesas a fundamental quality to relationships,
people are going to be different.
I think intellectually we canassent to that, but I don't think
emotionally we do.
And ultimately, the basicdriver of this behavior is fear.
It's fear of being abandoned.
(30:45):
It's a fear of being left orsomebody being mad at me, which is
a separation.
And so that fear drives usalong, and we minimize the differences
withthe other person.
It's fine.
It's fine.
It's no big deal.
I'm making a big deal, morebig deal out of it than it really
is,etcetera, etcetera.
(31:08):
Okay?
And that's what the go alongto get along people are really all
about.
The next group is what I callthe yeah, but people.
And so instead of saying yesto the bad, they say no to the good.
So when good is offered themsupport, encouragement, help in getting
something done, they typically will
say no to that good that's being
offered them.
(31:37):
And the way that they go aboutdoing that is that they rationalize
thattheir problems are not as big of
adeal because they relativize their
problems to other people's problems.
And so my, you know, myproblem, the thing I'm wrestling
with,and I'm asking for help, it's not
that big of a deal because after
all,people have it far worse than I do.
(31:58):
I don't know what I'mcomplaining about.
Yeah, but thanks, but no thanks.
And so they, they suffer froman inability to ask for help because
they are constantly relativizing
theirproblems compared to somebody who
always has a worse than them.
Always.
They don't ever compare it tosomebody who has a better than them.
(32:20):
Why would they do that?
But there's an inability toask for help.
And in these folks case,boundaries actually are walls, and
they, it separates them from people
that goes into that.
So we've got the goal on toget along the.
Yeah, but, and then finally,this one is a bigger category, and
there are two different kinds and
flavors of this one.
(32:47):
But the larger category hereis, it's all about the outcome.
In other words, all that they,all that matters is that they gain
the outcome that they're trying to
achieve.
And so ultimately, they don'trespect other people's boundaries.
In their way of thinking, nois simply a challenge to overcome
or toconvince or to cajole or to intimidate
orwhatever to get the person to change
their no to yes.
(33:15):
And in a lot of ways, thesefolks tend to resist taking responsibility
fortheir own lives.
They're always projectingresponsibility onto other people.
And so they have different methods.
And that's what the twodifferent kinds are that I'm, I want
to talk about, because the two different
kinds, the first one is the intimidator.
(33:39):
Now, this is, this person iseasy to pick out.
We can see them coming a mile away.
Oftentimes we refer to them ascontrollers, and they don't listen.
They run over fences.
Sometimes they escalate andpower up on people when they get
a no.
And so they, some, they canget verbally and even physically
abusivewhen somebody resists a request or
to help them or whatever that might
be.
(34:09):
And in their economy, there isreally no place for somebody to say
no to them.
There's no place for that.
And so they don't, theyreally, these are the, probably the
most outspoken critics about boundaries
are these people.
And in a lot of cases, peoplecriticize boundaries partly because
they don't want to abide by them,
andthat's why they criticize them, when,
in fact, I would make a pretty unequivocal
statement to say that ultimately
healthyrelationships can't survive with
poor boundaries.
(34:50):
Let me put it another way.
The healthiest relationshipshave the clearest boundaries and
arespect for boundaries in them.
In other words, to put itsimply, they have a respect for the
per other person's no.
And so the intimidators arethe first group.
The second group are the manipulators.
And the manipulatorsultimately, ultimately are less honest.
(35:15):
They hide and they try topersuade people into believing that
they really wanted what the other
person is resisting.
And so a no is just achallenge to overcome.
And they try to manipulate orto persuade the other person to give
in.
(35:38):
And so a no is not acceptable, really.
And that's the manipulator.
So it's all about outcome canlook two different ways.
It can look intimidating inorder to get the outcome they want
or manipulating in order to get the
outcome that they want.
And those are the two kind offlavors, if you will, that are part
of that group of people that the.
(36:04):
So there's.
So what do we got?
We got, we got the go along toget along.
We've got the.
Yeah, but.
And we've got, it's all aboutthe outcome people.
We've got one more group in that.
One more group is what's your problem?
Ultimately, they don't hearthe needs of other people at all.
And their kind of lifephilosophy is, if you don't like
it,how you feel, change your feelings.
(36:29):
Life's tough, get over it.
Suck it up, buttercup, you'llbe fine.
And they tend to have a verycritical spirit.
They tend to evaluate otherpeople's circumstances to minimize
itultimately, and make it so they don't
have anything to respond to.
(36:49):
And so they oftentimes willsay, hey, what's the problem here?
This is not that big of a deal.
You're making a bigger dealout of it than it really is.
And so they end up beingabsorbed in their own desires and
needs rather than actually hearing
other people.
Now, like I said, these arethe four profiles.
(37:11):
I even hesitate to use thatword because profiles are way more
rigid than I'm trying to communicate
here,because ultimately we may have features
of each one of these in the different
relationships of our lives, whether
it's at work or personal life or
wherever that might be.
(37:32):
So we might have features ofall of these in here.
And, and the challenge is, ishow committed am I to freeing people
and giving them the freedom to say
no and accepting their no?
Because we communicaterespect, we communicate dignity,
wecommunicate value to the other person
when we accept no for an answer.
(38:01):
And the funny thing about itis, is that if the person recognizes
thatI value their freedom to say no,
then the potential is pretty great,
that they will also understand that
they have the power to say yes.
But if we prohibit no, thenthe yes we get is going to be a false
yes.
(38:27):
It is not going to beauthentic, it is not going to be
sincere.
And ultimately, I think formost of us, we don't want an insincere
yes.
We don't want to be manipulatesomebody into saying yes because
itdoesn't mean as much.
And that's true.
And the funny thing about itis even the God of the universe,
JesusChrist, when he was on this earth,
helet people choose.
(38:55):
He let them choose.
And even if they choose,chose, choose, even if they chose
wrongly.
And a classic example, andthis is there, there are other examples.
If you know what you'relooking for, you will see it.
But the classic example is thestory that is told, I'm not sure
which gospel it is, of the rich young
ruler that comes up to Jesus and
tries to justify himself by saying,
I've kept all of the law of Moses.
(39:28):
And Jesus looks at him and itsays, he looks at him with compassion
andpoints out, but there is one that
you have not kept, and that is, give
all that you own to the poor and
follow me.
And the young man gets kind ofpulled up and he says, yeah, no,
that's okay.
(39:53):
And he walks away.
We don't see Jesus runningafter him and trying to change the
conditions of the agreement or anything
like that.
He said he's free to choose,and even choose wrongly.
And obviously, there are a lotof people that chose rightly in following
Jesus, but there are lots of people
that didn't.
(40:16):
A lot of people that didn't.
As a matter of fact, they werein the group of people that crucified
them eventually.
So boundaries are a criticalthing to understand in our relationships,
whether that be in the outpost like
we're talking about here, or even
inchristian community, because it communicates
something by how we relate, not so
much by what we say.
(40:42):
And that's what's important tounderstand and keep firmly in our
minds.
I think once we understandthat, because this is a linchpin,
I willsay this is a linchpin to relationships
as boundaries.
And increasingly over theyears, as I've been in the counseling
field, which is over four decades,
Ihave seen a slow deterioration of
boundaries between people, to the
point where people are held hostage
byother people because they can't bear
the other person saying no.
(41:22):
And it leads to all manner ofconflict in relationships as a result
of that.
And that's.
That's what's key here interms of the relationships within.
Within the uppost, within ourrelationships and community.
However, you know, whateverthe context is, you can apply it.
(41:42):
It will still work and it willstill be applicable.
And again, this is not thekind of thing that you have chapter
andverse to quote, although there's
plentyto point to.
But it is the kind of thingthat, in principle, agrees with the
value of human life and the dignity
ofthe human, the imago dei in each
person, the image of God in each
person, and how we communicate that
value by respecting their freedom
andtheir ability to say no.
(42:18):
So that is it for tonight.
Thanks so much for joining me.
Sgi dash net.org is the homefor everything stained glass international
inthe community.
If you have questions, you candm me on Instagram, or you can send
me a message on the homepage of Sgi
dash net.org dot.
At the very bottom, there's acontact form, and you can certainly
fillthat out.
(42:42):
And put your questions there.
You can follow the podcast onany of the platforms that you usually
listen to.
Podcasts on.
Subscriptions are alwayshelpful in terms of raising our profile
to the people that if I'm talking
aboutstuff that you think might benefit,
thensubscriptions, subscribing to it
and following it and getting the
feed is really a way to raise the
profile for other people to find
us.
(43:12):
And so the other thing I'dmentioned, and I already mentioned
it inthe podcast, was the digital devotional.
It is called setting new boundaries.
It is in the resources sectionon the website.
And you can sign up.
It's $5 a month.
You can try it for a month.
If you like it, great.
If you don't, then just cancel it.
It's just that simple.
(43:34):
But you get to a devotional tobe thinking about the stuff that
Ijust finished talking about on this
podcast.
And so it's there for yourenjoyment and hopefully your encouragement
and even challenge.
So there's another podcastI've been doing.
I do this kind of periodicallybased on how the spirit moves me,
and it's called unscripted, the collected
wisdom of life, living in sorrow.
(44:03):
And it has a slant towardtalking about the process of sorrow
and what it looks like and some of
the landscape that I think is important
to understand.
In scripture we often refer toas lament.
And that's not something we dovery much of, at least in our culture,
because of our commitment to being
happy.
(44:25):
So you can also listen on thatone on whatever podcast platform
you use.
Follow us on social media,Instagram, SGI International, Facebook,
at stained Glass International on
Facebook, and then LinkedIn at Drmitch.
M I t s c h.
(44:46):
So you can find us in any ofthose places if you want to partner
with us.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
You can do that by using adonate link on the website.
Or if you'd rather send us aphysical check, you can certainly
do that.
Just make it out to SGI.
And the address is PO box 322,Eastlake, Colorado 80614.
(45:13):
And.
And we just opened a store,SGI store.
And there are window stickersand the books, my two books are available
there.
The newest one, the seasons ofour grief, is there.
And excuse me.
And if you want to takeadvantage and, and order something
upthat way, you certainly can, whether
it's on Amazon or anywhere else,
and subscribe.
(45:39):
Subscribe to our online community.
You'll get hit.
Once you hit the website,you'll get hit with an invitation
to jointhe community.
We're not going to hit you upfor money or anything like that,
butwe send out a newsletter periodically,
again,just to give you stuff to think about
and to read and hopefully find some
encouragement from.
(46:01):
So that is it.
Thanks so much for joining me.
I appreciate your time andyour willingness to seek it out and
to listen.
I pray that you will findapplication from some of the stuff
that I've been talking about in your
relationships this week.
(46:22):
And until next week, love you.
Later.
Bye.
Imagine for a moment that youare a road weary traveler.
You're tired, you're hungry,and wondering if there will ever
bea safe place to rest.
You've been told there's anoutpost ahead that provides safety
information for the road ahead and
people who understand what the journey
is like.
You keep scanning the horizon,hoping against hope that it will
be there.
(00:25):
Then, as you come over a risein the terrain, you suddenly catch
aglimpse of it.
There it stands, beckoning youto come and find the rest you need.
You're moments away from the outpost.
Well, welcome, everybody, tothe outpost.
I am Doctor Ray Mitch, your host.
(00:46):
I'm quite honestly, I'mshocked that I am able to pull this
off tonight.
I have packed quite apotpourri of disaster into one week.
I might say part of that isbecause I am.
I contracted Covid on Saturdayof last week, and then Sunday, I
was in pretty much misery.
(01:14):
Monday got a little bitbetter, and so we move on basically
from there.
Funny thing about this is thatit has attacked my voice.
And so when I look back intime, not that this is information
anybodyreally cares that much about, but
I'll say it anyway, is that being
ateacher, your voice is everything.
(01:41):
Actually, as a counselor, yourvoice is everything as well.
You really need a functioningvoice to be able to be heard and
everything else, obviously.
But I look back in time overthe years of teaching, which is now
16 years, and it seems like every
fall, I would be afflicted with laryngitis,
and I would lose my voice for a few
days, and I would.
(02:06):
Every year, I would auditionfor the voice of James Earl Jones
andDarth Vader because I was in such
alow register, and so that was always
there.
And looking back at it, Ican't help but wonder that actually,
thatI may have been afflicted by Covid
before we had the hysteria over Covid
and everything that went along with
it since 2020, essentially.
(02:38):
So here we are.
And my voice soundssurprisingly better than I thought
itwould by this time, and it is strong
enough to carry me through the week
in the teaching that I have to do
and everything else.
So thanks for joining me byway of all of that.
Thanks for joining me.
You're listening to theOutpost podcast.
(02:59):
I'm Doctor Ray Mitch, your host.
I am delighted that you takensome time out to listen in on the
podcast.
What we're looking at andtalking about this, this few, I don't
know, five or six weeks worth of
material here is what.
(03:19):
What do the relationships thatexist within the outpost look like?
I mean, what's the, what's thebest way to go about doing those
things?
And ultimately, rather thanmaking it particular just to the
up, let's talk about it in the context
of christian community, or any kind
of community, or any kind of group,
for that matter.
(03:40):
And the last couple of weeks,we've been looking at not only how
do we handle truth, not only the
big t truth of God's truth and things
that are applicable to everybody,
but howdo we handle little t truth that
isunique to me?
And I try to communicate thatto people in a variety of ways.
(04:02):
And the real travesty, atleast in my mind, is our tendency
to tryto apply big t truth principles and
thoughts and stuff from scripture
and etcetera onto the back of the little
ttruth of where we actually live.
(04:23):
And usually there is such amassive disconnect between those
thatthe person ends up feeling like,
well, I guess what I thought and
felt really didn't matter.
The only thing that matters isGod's truth.
And so I just need to suck itup, buttercup, and just try to live
life that way.
(04:49):
It's an artificial way to doit because we invite people to split
themselves between what they really
experience and what they really feel
versus how they should feel or what
they should believe.
And that chasm that existsbetween those two are really where
relationship is forged and where
connection is forged.
(05:12):
And that's, I think, to somedegree, what has contributed to a
lot of disconnect, ultimately, for
a lot of people, even from the church
itself.
You know, the church reallydoesn't have anything to offer me
because it doesn't have a way for
me to connect with it.
I can get beat up, you know, Ican get beat about my head and shoulders
with big t truth and all the truth
ofGod's word.
(05:39):
And while that may be true, itis true.
But while that may be true,that doesn't connect with the life
I'm living right now.
And the thing we've got upsidedown and backwards is somehow we
think that engaging people through
bigteachers, because that's what they
should believe, that's what they
should think, is the way to helping
them embrace and understand the character
of God.
(06:12):
And we've got it backwardsbecause ultimately, which might be,
might not actually be all that good,
is that they understand the character
ofGod by how we relate to them, not
so much by what we say to them.
And that's a key point I thinkwe have to contend with when we're
talking about the outpost and maybe
even in the future, lord willing,
wecould have outpost groups where people
gather, talk about life as they are
living it and as it is, not as it
should be, and connect on that basis
and be able to find where God exists
in that, where God, you know, what
God's word actually has to say about
that, but nothing sooner than we
should, because the reality is big
t truth that is ill timed, that is
done usually for the benefit of the
speaker, not the listener, is because
Iwant to be able to feel like I'm
doing something helpful.
(07:13):
I'm doing something thatsomebody should have and believe.
Then I am imposing that onthem and saying, this is what you
should do and should believe rather
than.
I wanna understand what lifeis like for you first, before I jump
in with that.
So what I was saying, big ttruth, which, like I said, is true
when it is ill timed, it is not timed
according to the need of the person
that's being spoken to, is a weapon
and it's experienced as a weapon.
(07:49):
And unfortunately, in a lot ofcases, people feel like almost embarrassed
that they feel wounded by that, because
they shouldn't.
They shouldn't.
And so we kind of forget aboutthe fact that we're diminishing somebody's
humanity by sidestepping those little
t realities that they live with.
(08:16):
And by doing so, wecommunicate to them that their humanity
really doesn't matter.
And you can get alltheological about it with me all
you want and say, well, their humanity
is broken and they're sinful and
blah, blah, blah, whatever.
That's true.
That is true.
(08:36):
I'm not going to debate that point.
That is true.
But so what?
How do I move somebody inauthentic relationship to God and
to Jesus?
And it is by the power of myrelationship with them.
(08:57):
And if I am not so good withthat, then that's the face of God
that they will conclude exists rather
than the one that is the face of
Jesus because he was the face of
God.
And so what the outpostattempts to do is to build bridges
backto faith for a lot of people that
have left it behind but long for
that kind of connection that I was
just talking about or its purpose
is tostrengthen these bridges, the bridges
of faith that people have that ultimately
end up being built on us, being fully
who we are, otherwise known as authenticity.
(09:45):
For us to understand whatgrace really means and what it really
does to empower us to grow and to
learn and to find acceptance and
live in the tension between grace
andtruth, which I've already talked
alittle bit about, and ultimately,
in thecontext of the outpost and the kind
of relationships that we have there,
it's being known and knowing other
people and being willing to be known.
(10:16):
And we're not so sure we wantthat, because if people know us the
way we know us, they're not going
tolike us either.
So we better not be known.
And the reality is, is that weactually believe that if they knew
us the way we know us, they would
come to the same conclusion that
wedo instead of offering us grace.
(10:39):
How many people have youtalked to?
Or even you might have saidthis, I am great at giving grace
toother people, but I'm terrible at
giving grace to myself.
And that should be all, yourealize, because if we're terrible
atgiving grace to ourselves, and we
essentially, we essentially assume
that other people will do what we
do to ourselves.
(11:04):
And that's fundamentally false.
Even if you would check it outor test it out, you would find that.
So we're trying ultimately, insmall ways, slow but sure, hopefully,
tocreate a space where the doubters
andthe wounded and the confused and
beat up and beat down and the bent
and bruised who feel like their lives
are disappointment into God, can
feel accepted enough to be known
andknow others, because ultimately we
have to feel accepted to stretch
ourselves, to be willing to know
other people.
(11:42):
And what my hope is is thatthese outposts could be a place where
people actually bump into the biblical
Jesus as he is, not as they have
grown to assume he is, because those
may not be the same.
So that's, that's kind of leadup to where we're going tonight.
(12:03):
And so pull up a chair, getcomfortable and relax.
And, and hopefully the stuffthat I want to talk about tonight
willbe immediately useful to you.
We, like I said the last timewe talked about truth, and then the,
the episode last week was on how
dowe play God and how we try to control
other people.
(12:27):
And the antidote to controland controlling behavior ultimately,
ishaving a commitment to freedom and
to grace and to being willing to
let people make mistakes, including
ourselves.
And so the third one that wecome to is, the way that I put it,
is fence.
(12:49):
Fence?
What?
Fence.
And the funny thing about itis that when you look at our world
around us, there are boundaries everywhere.
We call them property lines.
In the world of real estate,we call them kind of my personal
space.
(13:10):
We call that literally, in alot of places there are fences.
There are ways that wedemarcate what we're responsible
for andwhat we're not with our lawns.
And sometimes hedges.
I actually grew up across thestreet from somebody that had a hedge.
(13:30):
And I always just saw it as achallenge to figure out a way through
it, but it was a way of demarcating
whattheir lawn was or what they were
responsible for.
And so, in the physical world,we have lots of examples of boundaries,
including walls of rooms and doors
that let us into those rooms and
things like that, but even more so
in the physical world, outside of
our homes with fences.
(14:05):
And I, when I first wasintroduced to this, and I actually
wroteabout it, I have a devotional on
the website called setting New Boundaries,
and it's about healthy relationships.
And when I first learned aboutthis from the two authors that I
am going to be using their material,
material from, and that's John Townsend
and Henry Cloud.
(14:32):
And I worked with them, theywere in the.
The California clinic of theMinersmeyer Clinic, and I was in
the Wheaton one.
And when they first releasedtheir book, Boundaries, me and two
other friends of mine who were therapists
in the Chicago clinic were conscripted
toput together a 365 day devotional
on boundaries.
(14:58):
And that's essentially whatthat digital devotional on my website
actually is.
It allows you to.
To get a devotion in youremail once a week for two years,
basically, where you're able to think
through the boundaries in your life,
in your relationships, how you want
to handle it, where you might be
going wrong, all of that.
(15:25):
So enough of the shamelessplug that's there for your enjoyment.
And if you want to get it, youcan subscribe.
It's less than a cost of alatte today.
It used to be about equal to alatte years ago, but that's long
gone.
So that's there, and you'rewelcome to hit it.
(15:47):
And you can go to resources onthe website to find it.
So in the physical world, wehave lots of examples everywhere
about boundaries.
What about in the spiritualworld, though?
And one way to think aboutboundaries in the spiritual world
isthey literally define my soul and
our soul, or our heart, depending
on whatthe phrases are that are used within
scripture, usually entail the immaterial
part of us.
(16:18):
The heart, generally inscripture includes our dreams and
our will and our choices and all
the things, our emotions.
Because heart isn't just our emotions.
The heart, at least as definedwithin scripture, is really all of
us, ultimately.
(16:40):
But our soul ends up beingkind of the immaterial part of us,
where the spirit of God resides,
if weaccept and invite him into our lives.
And so in the spiritual world,boundaries define our soul.
Now, let me give you an example.
(17:01):
And it's from proverbs.
It's one that a lot of peopleare relatively familiar with, and
it's from proverbs 423, if you're
interested and want to look it up,
it says, watch over your heart with
all diligence.
For from it flows the springsof life.
Now, if you think about thatclosely and carefully, what you will
find is that our heart is likened
to aspring, and out of that spring flows
everything into our lives and into
other people's lives, for that matter.
(17:35):
And Jesus refers to thisregularly in a lot of his teaching,
that,that it's what is in the.
In man's heart and theoverflow of that that contaminates
him, notwhat he puts into his stomach and
comes out of his digestive tract.
And so when proverbs, thewriter of proverbs, says, watch over
your heart with all diligence, he's
not talking about something that
isa outlaw that should be caged or.
(18:06):
Or jailed or imprisoned.
It is something that should bewatched over with care and a sense
ofimmense value.
For from it flows the springsof life.
And the thing to understand isthat oftentimes when we see behaviors
andthings in us that we don't like,
whatwe're actually looking at is the
trash that has accumulated downstream
fromthe spring itself.
(18:43):
And we try to clean out allthe trash downstream, hoping that
that will clean everything up.
But we don't take the time tolook at what's going on in the spring.
And if from another point ofview, you could look at the sermon
onthe mount that way.
Is that sermon on the mount just.
Just by way of commentary?
(19:04):
Not that you asked for it, butyou're going to get it anyway.
The sermon on the mount justtells you where it was.
It doesn't tell you anythingabout the content.
I mean, imagine if you were togo to church and the sermon was entitled
message from the name of whatever
churchyou're going to, and that tells you
nothing of what it is.
(19:30):
But if you were really tosummarize, what the sermon on the
mount is about is you will find that
it's about the human heart.
It's about looking at thisvery thing of watching over our hearts.
We can notice all the thingsdownstream that come out of it, but
that doesn't tell us enough for us
to go back upstream and find out
what's going on in that spring.
(19:58):
And so, boundaries define oursoul, and they make it clear that
weneed to take care of that spring
of life.
Because from it flowseverything else.
Okay, so that's the first one.
It defines our soul.
The second thing is, isboundaries help us to understand
what's meand what's not me.
(20:19):
And, you know, kids learn thisrelatively early, probably around
thetwo year old range ish, from a yemenite
developmental point of view.
And we know it becausesuddenly they have discovered the
word mine, or me, for that matter.
(20:40):
So they begin to realize thatme is separate from somebody else.
And boundaries are that thing.
Boundaries are me versus not me.
You're not me, but I am me.
Right?
And so proverbs 1410 pointsthis out when it says, the heart
knows its own bitterness and no one
shares its joy.
(21:04):
In other words, I'm the onlyone that knows what bitterness is
like for me.
You may have a hint of it fromyour own or your own joy, but you
don't know it from what.
How I experience it, becauseyou're not me and no other way to
really put it.
(21:26):
And so they define our soul.
They define me and not me.
And they also define what I'mresponsible for versus what I am
responsible how I can be responsible
to someone.
Now, again, a verse from scripture.
Paul talks about this inGalatians, and he says something
mosteverybody knows.
(21:49):
This first verse.
Bear one another's burdens andthereby fulfill the law of Christ.
That's true.
Everybody knows this verse.
And.
And usually this verse is onethat I point to and say, this is
the.
The boulders and backpacksverse is the way I put it, because
burdens, literally in the Greek,
means boulder.
So bear one another'sboulders, which means something so
big, so crushing, somebody can't
possibly carry it alone.
(22:15):
And now I am responsible forsomebody else when they are attempting
tocarry a burden so big that they can't
do it alone.
And I come alongside of them.
But two verses later, Paulsays this.
He says, for each one willbear his own load and load.
(22:35):
Here is, if you look at it,it's really where we get the word
knapsack.
And so in our world, thatwould be the equivalent of backpack.
And it would.
It would carry the same connotation.
Because ultimately, in yourbackpack, whatever you're carrying
withyou, whatever it might be, messenger
bagor whatever you carry, only stuff
foryou, it is solely yours and yours
alone.
(23:07):
And Paul is saying, look, youcarry your own backpack.
You need to do that and beresponsible for that.
But when you see somebodycarrying a burden and a boulder so
big they can't, then you need to
be responsible for them and come
alongside and help them with that.
On the other hand, somebodycarrying their own backpack, I can
be responsible to them and say, well
done, keep going.
(23:34):
Don't give up.
This is.
This is something that you'reresponsible for.
How can I empower you to takethat responsibility?
So being responsible tosomebody is being an encourager,
asupporter, a person to empower the
other person.
But being responsible forsomebody is.
Is reserved for when they arecarrying something so big, so crushing,
they can't possibly do it alone.
(24:01):
So there's.
It defines our soul.
It defines who I am and whoI'm not.
It defines what I'mresponsible for versus how I'm responsible
to other people.
And then finally, it's also away of understanding, keeping the
good in and the bad out.
It's a simplified way ofsaying it, but ultimately, this is
where the fence analogy is very effective,
because fences, I don't know that
you've probably ever come across
a fence.
(24:35):
It doesn't have a gate in it.
The question is, who is thekeeper of the gate in your life?
Are you or someone else?
And so ultimately, the gatethat is part of a fence, not a wall,
not a wall, but as part of a fence.
And fence is good because youcan come up to the fence and converse
with somebody at the fence and they're
in their world and you're in yours,
and there's separation, and you can
have a conversation over the fence
and still be separate.
(25:11):
But we need gates that we areresponsible for.
I am the keeper of my gate.
No one else is.
And no one else is entitled tocome in that gate unless I invite
andallow them to do that.
We have plenty of people inour lives.
I know a lot of people thatsay this, that feel entitled to come
to that gate because of their position
or their relationship or relation
andreally take offense that we would
actually choose to keep the gate
shut.
(25:50):
So we.
We have a right to say no.
And that's where, that's oneof the examples of boundaries that
we have.
Actually, in a lot of ways,the hardest time doing is to simply
use the.
Is to use the simplest word ofour vocabulary, which is only two
letters, and that's no.
(26:13):
Partly because we're sure thatthe other person's going to leave
us.
And if I say no, then theywon't like us or they.
They will get disappointed, orthey'll get angry, and we don't like
that because now we're responsible
for that.
And their emotions are not a boulder.
Their emotions are their own thing.
(26:35):
They need to takeresponsibility for that themselves.
So we need gates.
And gates keep the good in andthe bad out.
And that's how we exercise,having good boundaries and saying
noto certain situations or to certain
people or whatever that might be.
So, like I said, examples ofboundaries in our everyday world
would include words like no, speaking
the truth rather than a falsehood,
orsaying something just to keep somebody
happy.
(27:09):
And sometimes even distance, Imean, just geographical cures, if
you will, is what oftentimes people,
how they set boundaries, because
theycan't set boundaries and the person
isclose to them.
And that's some other issuethat's a lot bigger than I have time
to talk about.
(27:31):
But emotional distance orgeographical distance is not uncommon,
because we feel we have.
The other person has such swayover us, for whatever reason.
I'm not throwing stones.
They have such sway over usfor a variety of reasons that we
can't seemingly say no.
(27:51):
And when that's the case, weseparate ourselves and create emotional
or geographical distance with them.
The other one, which is verysimple in terms of a boundary, is
just taking time away.
And so time is also aboundary, and what goes into it.
Now, what I want to do is walkyou through four different, well,
actually five different groups of
people.
(28:19):
And more than likely one ofthese will probably get your attention
orpoke you in some way, maybe more.
And that's okay.
It doesn't mean that you'redoomed at all, but it just points
outthe area that you may need to pay
attention to.
And John and Henry, in theirbook, boundaries separate people
bywhat they call compliance and avoidance
and non responsives and controllers.
(28:48):
I call it something a little different.
Same concepts still indebtedto them, but I call it something
a littledifferent to make it a little bit
more understandable.
Because when I say compliant,most people don't immediately understand
what I'm talking about.
(29:09):
So I've relabeled these groupsof people.
This is not a profile.
Doesn't mean that you do itall the time.
It doesn't mean, as a matterof fact, you probably don't.
It is probably in certainsituations with certain relationships,
thatthese things happen.
And so there may be pieces andparts of each one of these that you
find familiarity with in some way.
(29:35):
Okay, so here's the first group.
The first group is what I callthe go along to get along people.
And ultimately, they say yesto everything, including the bad.
And these folks oftentimeshave very fuzzy or indistinct boundaries
with other people.
And so when somebody elsefeels bad, they.
They feel bad.
(29:56):
Too, partly because the otherperson's feeling bad and they feel
responsible for that.
And so they, their tendencythis go along to get along, folks.
Their tendency is to try tominimize their differences with other
people.
And unfortunately, we havebought into the lie that I have to
minimize the differences in order
tohave anything that will connect me
to the other person.
(30:25):
Instead of seeing differencesas a fundamental quality to relationships,
people are going to be different.
I think intellectually we canassent to that, but I don't think
emotionally we do.
And ultimately, the basicdriver of this behavior is fear.
It's fear of being abandoned.
(30:45):
It's a fear of being left orsomebody being mad at me, which is
a separation.
And so that fear drives usalong, and we minimize the differences
withthe other person.
It's fine.
It's fine.
It's no big deal.
I'm making a big deal, morebig deal out of it than it really
is,etcetera, etcetera.
(31:08):
Okay?
And that's what the go alongto get along people are really all
about.
The next group is what I callthe yeah, but people.
And so instead of saying yesto the bad, they say no to the good.
So when good is offered themsupport, encouragement, help in getting
something done, they typically will
say no to that good that's being
offered them.
(31:37):
And the way that they go aboutdoing that is that they rationalize
thattheir problems are not as big of
adeal because they relativize their
problems to other people's problems.
And so my, you know, myproblem, the thing I'm wrestling
with,and I'm asking for help, it's not
that big of a deal because after
all,people have it far worse than I do.
(31:58):
I don't know what I'mcomplaining about.
Yeah, but thanks, but no thanks.
And so they, they suffer froman inability to ask for help because
they are constantly relativizing
theirproblems compared to somebody who
always has a worse than them.
Always.
They don't ever compare it tosomebody who has a better than them.
(32:20):
Why would they do that?
But there's an inability toask for help.
And in these folks case,boundaries actually are walls, and
they, it separates them from people
that goes into that.
So we've got the goal on toget along the.
Yeah, but, and then finally,this one is a bigger category, and
there are two different kinds and
flavors of this one.
(32:47):
But the larger category hereis, it's all about the outcome.
In other words, all that they,all that matters is that they gain
the outcome that they're trying to
achieve.
And so ultimately, they don'trespect other people's boundaries.
In their way of thinking, nois simply a challenge to overcome
or toconvince or to cajole or to intimidate
orwhatever to get the person to change
their no to yes.
(33:15):
And in a lot of ways, thesefolks tend to resist taking responsibility
fortheir own lives.
They're always projectingresponsibility onto other people.
And so they have different methods.
And that's what the twodifferent kinds are that I'm, I want
to talk about, because the two different
kinds, the first one is the intimidator.
(33:39):
Now, this is, this person iseasy to pick out.
We can see them coming a mile away.
Oftentimes we refer to them ascontrollers, and they don't listen.
They run over fences.
Sometimes they escalate andpower up on people when they get
a no.
And so they, some, they canget verbally and even physically
abusivewhen somebody resists a request or
to help them or whatever that might
be.
(34:09):
And in their economy, there isreally no place for somebody to say
no to them.
There's no place for that.
And so they don't, theyreally, these are the, probably the
most outspoken critics about boundaries
are these people.
And in a lot of cases, peoplecriticize boundaries partly because
they don't want to abide by them,
andthat's why they criticize them, when,
in fact, I would make a pretty unequivocal
statement to say that ultimately
healthyrelationships can't survive with
poor boundaries.
(34:50):
Let me put it another way.
The healthiest relationshipshave the clearest boundaries and
arespect for boundaries in them.
In other words, to put itsimply, they have a respect for the
per other person's no.
And so the intimidators arethe first group.
The second group are the manipulators.
And the manipulatorsultimately, ultimately are less honest.
(35:15):
They hide and they try topersuade people into believing that
they really wanted what the other
person is resisting.
And so a no is just achallenge to overcome.
And they try to manipulate orto persuade the other person to give
in.
(35:38):
And so a no is not acceptable, really.
And that's the manipulator.
So it's all about outcome canlook two different ways.
It can look intimidating inorder to get the outcome they want
or manipulating in order to get the
outcome that they want.
And those are the two kind offlavors, if you will, that are part
of that group of people that the.
(36:04):
So there's.
So what do we got?
We got, we got the go along toget along.
We've got the.
Yeah, but.
And we've got, it's all aboutthe outcome people.
We've got one more group in that.
One more group is what's your problem?
Ultimately, they don't hearthe needs of other people at all.
And their kind of lifephilosophy is, if you don't like
it,how you feel, change your feelings.
(36:29):
Life's tough, get over it.
Suck it up, buttercup, you'llbe fine.
And they tend to have a verycritical spirit.
They tend to evaluate otherpeople's circumstances to minimize
itultimately, and make it so they don't
have anything to respond to.
(36:49):
And so they oftentimes willsay, hey, what's the problem here?
This is not that big of a deal.
You're making a bigger dealout of it than it really is.
And so they end up beingabsorbed in their own desires and
needs rather than actually hearing
other people.
Now, like I said, these arethe four profiles.
(37:11):
I even hesitate to use thatword because profiles are way more
rigid than I'm trying to communicate
here,because ultimately we may have features
of each one of these in the different
relationships of our lives, whether
it's at work or personal life or
wherever that might be.
(37:32):
So we might have features ofall of these in here.
And, and the challenge is, ishow committed am I to freeing people
and giving them the freedom to say
no and accepting their no?
Because we communicaterespect, we communicate dignity,
wecommunicate value to the other person
when we accept no for an answer.
(38:01):
And the funny thing about itis, is that if the person recognizes
thatI value their freedom to say no,
then the potential is pretty great,
that they will also understand that
they have the power to say yes.
But if we prohibit no, thenthe yes we get is going to be a false
yes.
(38:27):
It is not going to beauthentic, it is not going to be
sincere.
And ultimately, I think formost of us, we don't want an insincere
yes.
We don't want to be manipulatesomebody into saying yes because
itdoesn't mean as much.
And that's true.
And the funny thing about itis even the God of the universe,
JesusChrist, when he was on this earth,
helet people choose.
(38:55):
He let them choose.
And even if they choose,chose, choose, even if they chose
wrongly.
And a classic example, andthis is there, there are other examples.
If you know what you'relooking for, you will see it.
But the classic example is thestory that is told, I'm not sure
which gospel it is, of the rich young
ruler that comes up to Jesus and
tries to justify himself by saying,
I've kept all of the law of Moses.
(39:28):
And Jesus looks at him and itsays, he looks at him with compassion
andpoints out, but there is one that
you have not kept, and that is, give
all that you own to the poor and
follow me.
And the young man gets kind ofpulled up and he says, yeah, no,
that's okay.
(39:53):
And he walks away.
We don't see Jesus runningafter him and trying to change the
conditions of the agreement or anything
like that.
He said he's free to choose,and even choose wrongly.
And obviously, there are a lotof people that chose rightly in following
Jesus, but there are lots of people
that didn't.
(40:16):
A lot of people that didn't.
As a matter of fact, they werein the group of people that crucified
them eventually.
So boundaries are a criticalthing to understand in our relationships,
whether that be in the outpost like
we're talking about here, or even
inchristian community, because it communicates
something by how we relate, not so
much by what we say.
(40:42):
And that's what's important tounderstand and keep firmly in our
minds.
I think once we understandthat, because this is a linchpin,
I willsay this is a linchpin to relationships
as boundaries.
And increasingly over theyears, as I've been in the counseling
field, which is over four decades,
Ihave seen a slow deterioration of
boundaries between people, to the
point where people are held hostage
byother people because they can't bear
the other person saying no.
(41:22):
And it leads to all manner ofconflict in relationships as a result
of that.
And that's.
That's what's key here interms of the relationships within.
Within the uppost, within ourrelationships and community.
However, you know, whateverthe context is, you can apply it.
(41:42):
It will still work and it willstill be applicable.
And again, this is not thekind of thing that you have chapter
andverse to quote, although there's
plentyto point to.
But it is the kind of thingthat, in principle, agrees with the
value of human life and the dignity
ofthe human, the imago dei in each
person, the image of God in each
person, and how we communicate that
value by respecting their freedom
andtheir ability to say no.
(42:18):
So that is it for tonight.
Thanks so much for joining me.
Sgi dash net.org is the homefor everything stained glass international
inthe community.
If you have questions, you candm me on Instagram, or you can send
me a message on the homepage of Sgi
dash net.org dot.
At the very bottom, there's acontact form, and you can certainly
fillthat out.
(42:42):
And put your questions there.
You can follow the podcast onany of the platforms that you usually
listen to.
Podcasts on.
Subscriptions are alwayshelpful in terms of raising our profile
to the people that if I'm talking
aboutstuff that you think might benefit,
thensubscriptions, subscribing to it
and following it and getting the
feed is really a way to raise the
profile for other people to find
us.
(43:12):
And so the other thing I'dmentioned, and I already mentioned
it inthe podcast, was the digital devotional.
It is called setting new boundaries.
It is in the resources sectionon the website.
And you can sign up.
It's $5 a month.
You can try it for a month.
If you like it, great.
If you don't, then just cancel it.
It's just that simple.
(43:34):
But you get to a devotional tobe thinking about the stuff that
Ijust finished talking about on this
podcast.
And so it's there for yourenjoyment and hopefully your encouragement
and even challenge.
So there's another podcastI've been doing.
I do this kind of periodicallybased on how the spirit moves me,
and it's called unscripted, the collected
wisdom of life, living in sorrow.
(44:03):
And it has a slant towardtalking about the process of sorrow
and what it looks like and some of
the landscape that I think is important
to understand.
In scripture we often refer toas lament.
And that's not something we dovery much of, at least in our culture,
because of our commitment to being
happy.
(44:25):
So you can also listen on thatone on whatever podcast platform
you use.
Follow us on social media,Instagram, SGI International, Facebook,
at stained Glass International on
Facebook, and then LinkedIn at Drmitch.
M I t s c h.
(44:46):
So you can find us in any ofthose places if you want to partner
with us.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
You can do that by using adonate link on the website.
Or if you'd rather send us aphysical check, you can certainly
do that.
Just make it out to SGI.
And the address is PO box 322,Eastlake, Colorado 80614.
(45:13):
And.
And we just opened a store,SGI store.
And there are window stickersand the books, my two books are available
there.
The newest one, the seasons ofour grief, is there.
And excuse me.
And if you want to takeadvantage and, and order something
upthat way, you certainly can, whether
it's on Amazon or anywhere else,
and subscribe.
(45:39):
Subscribe to our online community.
You'll get hit.
Once you hit the website,you'll get hit with an invitation
to jointhe community.
We're not going to hit you upfor money or anything like that,
butwe send out a newsletter periodically,
again,just to give you stuff to think about
and to read and hopefully find some
encouragement from.
(46:01):
So that is it.
Thanks so much for joining me.
I appreciate your time andyour willingness to seek it out and
to listen.
I pray that you will findapplication from some of the stuff
that I've been talking about in your
relationships this week.
(46:22):
And until next week, love you.
Later.
Bye.
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