October 7, 2024 • 57 mins
Forgiveness is a complex and often contentious theme that resonates deeply within relationships, particularly when hurt and betrayal are involved. Dr. Mitsch delves into the multifaceted nature of forgiveness, challenging the simplistic notion of 'forgive and forget'. He argues that true forgiveness involves acknowledging the hurt and the complexities surrounding it rather than dismissing it. Drawing on psychological insights, Mitsch asserts that forgetting past grievances can be detrimental, as it ignores the lessons learned from painful experiences. He emphasizes that forgiveness is not a mere transaction but a profound process that requires both emotional and spiritual engagement. The discussion further explores the reasons behind our reluctance to forgive, including our desire for justice and control over the actions of those who have hurt us. Ultimately, the episode offers a compassionate framework for understanding forgiveness as a journey toward inner freedom, urging listeners to recognize the liberation that comes from releasing grudges and embracing grace.
Takeaways:
- Forgiveness is not simply about forgetting; it's about releasing the burden of anger.
- True forgiveness requires us to trust God to handle our grievances appropriately.
- Forgiveness is a process that involves recognizing our hurt and healing over time.
- We often hold onto grudges thinking it empowers us, but it actually enslaves us.
- Letting go of our end of the rope is essential for true forgiveness to occur.
- Forgiveness allows us to potentially transform our relationships and invite healing into our lives.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Imagine for a moment that youare a road weary traveler.
You're tired, you're hungry,and wondering if there will ever
bea safe place to rest.
You've been told there's anoutpost ahead that provides safety
information for the road ahead and
people who understand what the journey
is like.
You keep scanning the horizon,hoping against hope that it will
be there.
(00:25):
Then, as you come over a risein the terrain, you suddenly catch
aglimpse of it.
There it stands, beckoning youto come and find the rest you need.
You're moments away from the outpost.
Welcome, everybody, to anotheredition of the Outpost.
I am Doctor Ray Mitch, your host.
(00:46):
Thanks so much for taking sometime out of your busy schedule to
listen in.
Perhaps we will hit on somekey issues that are of interest to
you.
This particular one, I thinkthe topic for tonight is one that
isprobably would fall under a hot button
issue.
(01:07):
I think, if I were realhonest, and based on most of the
reactions I have gotten when I've
talked about this, it is a common
issue within relationships, not only
in what I'm referring to as the outpost,
but also just in relationships in
general.
So before I get into that, let me.
(01:27):
Let me describe a little bitif you're listening for the very
first time.
Welcome.
I'm so glad that you've.
That you are checking us out.
What is the outpost?
Well, the outpost is a digitalplace where we're trying to build
bridges back to faith or strengthen
bridges of faith that are built on
authenticity, on grace and truth,
andon knowing and being known.
(01:54):
And so, depending on whatyou're bringing with you into listening
to this podcast, you bring you with
you.
And so all of those issues,whether it's about the topics I might
be talking about, or hopefully, lord
willing, the people I might interview,
it's going to be the filter through
which you listen to everything I
have to say.
(02:21):
And that's just there.
It's not really a matter ofit's good or bad or anything.
It just is there.
We listen with filters,whether we know it or not.
There's always some kind ofbias, maybe even some measure of
woundedness that we bring to listening
tosome of the topics that I am trying
totalk about in some practical sort
ofway, hopefully, particularly the
one that I want to touch on tonight.
(02:50):
So what we're trying to do isto create a space where the doubters,
thewounded, the confused, the beat up
and beat down, the bent and bruised
whofeel like their lives are a disappointment
toGod, can feel accepted enough to
be known and know others and this,
this can be done in a variety of
ways, which we have found out even
since the strike of the pandemic
and wewere trying to relate through a screen.
(03:19):
It would be preferable if wedo this in person to person, eye
toeye, in the presence of others, to
be able to see and hear their reactions
to us.
But we have to have the kindof place where we feel safe enough
andaccepted enough to do that.
We seek to be ultimately thekind of place where people can meet
and bump into the biblical Jesus
ashe is, not as they have been told
heis, or that they've heard he is,
orthe caricature of what they believe
he is.
(03:54):
And that's one of the biasesthat we may have to deal with, is
what I believe to be true.
And maybe it isn't.
Maybe.
I think ultimately weconstruct our way of understanding
who Jesusis by the people who identify themselves
with Jesus.
(04:16):
And that's unfortunate becausethey are a very pallid reflection
of whohe is and the nature of who he is.
And so unfortunately, thenumber of people you bump into who
are very confident in what they think
Jesus is are the very first ones
youshould probably ignore.
(04:39):
And the ones that are stilltrying to figure it out, those are
the ones that you probably should
payattention to.
So let me get into this.
Pull up a chair.
Get comfortable, relax.
Maybe you're on a walk or run.
And I want to talk about thethings that really matter wherever,
wherewe live, where we.
(05:00):
How we think and how we feelabout living life with others and
even in our spiritual life.
So.
And this is the topic, okay?
And all I can say is probablybuckle up because the topic is, this
is what.
What about forgiveness?
(05:20):
Like, forgive and forget?
And the reality is there is nosuch thing.
It does not exist in the Bible.
Quite honestly, this is one ofthese phrases that tends to really
getme grinding my teeth, partly because
we, we can't forget.
Neither should we forget now.
Forgive, yes, absolutely.
(05:42):
But forgive, no, I.
That quite honestly, from a,from a psychological point of view,
forgetting is dangerous.
And if you ever meet somebodythat forgets stuff, we would look
atthat as problematic.
Right?
I mean, the first indicationsof dementia, sometimes, not always,
maybe it's just old age, I should
know, is forgetfulness.
(06:09):
And that can be because wehave a lot on our minds and we're
distracted and we're not paying attention.
It can be a lot of different things.
But usually forgetfulness isusually an indication to us that
something's up.
And so when we come up withthese phrases, and there's another
oneI want to touch on.
(06:30):
That's a hot button for me.
I don't know about any of you,but it is for me, and I'll let you
in on that in a second.
But forgive and forget is oneof these things that really can't
be done.
And when it is implied orimposed, we're doomed because we
can't.
And neither should we.
Because in a lot of cases, thepeople that we are seeking to forgive
continue to behave in the way that
prompted the woundedness in the first
place and my need to forgive them.
(07:03):
And so I should be remember, Ishould remember of the nature of
what they do.
And maybe it would take youback then to the last episode when
Iwas talking about setting boundaries
andhaving healthy boundaries in relationships,
because that's a very important part,
ultimately, of the process to forgiveness.
(07:27):
Now, there is only one person,one being in the universe that can
forget.
And that's what I want topoint out to you.
And there was a prophet in theOld Testament, and he was, he was
often feeling like he really didn't
want to be a prophet because the
people he had to talk to were really
tough.
(07:56):
And he says this, he says, andhe's talking for God.
And he says, for this is thecovenant I will make with the house
of Israel after those days, after
they have lost their land and been
displaced and everything else, and
maybe even the end of time, maybe
tothe point of where we are today,
because God says, I will put my law
within them.
(08:21):
I will write it on theirhearts, and I will be their God,
andthey shall be my people.
And no longer shall each oneteach his neighbor and each his brother,
saying, know the Lord, for they all
will know me from the least to the
greatest.
And it says, for I willforgive their iniquity, their sin,
and I will forget their sin.
(08:44):
I will remember their sin no more.
There is only one being in theuniverse that can do that, and that's
the one that knows everything.
But we're always learning, andforgetting is not a good thing.
I have had many instanceswhere I've shown students videos
ofpeople that have forgotten have had
an impact on their ability to remember.
(09:13):
And everything about us hingeson our ability to remember things,
including our name, including who
we are, including seeing ourselves
in themirror and saying, that's me.
All of that is dependent on remembering.
And so to say, forgive andforget is a cheap way to say, I'll
make believe that what you did didn't
matter is really what it ends up
being.
(09:41):
So let me give you some reason.
Let me start with why.
Why should I bother forgiving?
And ultimately, in theultimate sense, the first reason
forforgiving is because we've been forgiven
and God has made it possible for
usto live forgiven.
(10:03):
And so, in a lot of ways, Godis the ultimate creditor, and we
owe him everything.
And so when somebody comes tous or hurts us or whatever, for us
to hang on to our grievances against
them is to some degree, saying, well,
God, you can forgive me, but I don't
have to forgive anybody else.
(10:26):
And in a lot of instances, wecan look at some of the stories Jesus
told about a servant in particular
thatsaid he went into his master, he
owed him so much money.
Let me give you an example anda proportion here.
That servant goes into.
The master says, pleaseforgive my debt.
(10:47):
Now, that word is not only aspiritual or religious word, it is
a financial term.
You go in to your local bankerand say, how do I get rid of my mortgage?
And they will say, then whatyou're asking me to do is to forgive
your mortgage.
(11:09):
And essentially, the servantgoes into the ruler or the landowner
orwhoever he is, and he owes him so
much money that if you were to load
one person down with a five pound
bagof silver and line them all up about
a yard apart, the line would stretch
for 5 miles.
(11:41):
That's how much silver thatservant, that person owed his master.
That's how much.
And.
And the landowner, or whoeverhe is, says, okay, I'll forgive your
debt.
(12:01):
And then the servant goes out,finds a friend of his that owes him
a 20.
$20 because of maybe they.
They had a card game orwhatever, started choking him.
And the guy says, I'll get youyour money, repeating what that other
person said to the person that he
owed money to, I'll get you your
money.
(12:24):
And his friend says that, andhe throws them in jail because he
owes him money.
And the ruler or thelandowner, whoever it is, gets word
of this mandev because this man had
been forgiven all of that debt, probably
the equivalent of about $5 million.
(12:48):
And he's choking his friendfor $20.
And it grieved him.
It grieved him.
And that's the sameproportionality that we have with
God.
He says, I will forgive your debt.
As a matter of fact, I'll paythe cost, and I'll talk about that
in a second.
(13:08):
So why forgive?
The first and foremost one isessentially, God has given us a model
for releasing people from our demand
that they change and let God be the
one to deal with them.
Okay?
So the first one's God.
Why forgive?
Because God has forgiven me.
(13:29):
The second one is me.
And the reason I put me inthere is because one of the things
that most of us do not recognize
is thatwhen I hang on to a grudge or something
against another person because they
hurt me or whatever it is, and I
hang on to it so tightly because
theyowe me.
(13:52):
They owe me something.
They owe me an apology.
They owe me to restore whatthey have taken from me, whether
that'sin a relationship or whether that's
inthe relationship, they took something
from me.
And so essentially what I dois say, okay, you owe me.
(14:13):
And I'm going to hang on tothis until you finally figure out
what you owe me and you give it back
to me.
And ultimately, the reason forforgiving is because the person who
is.
Is freed is me.
Now let me give you an exampleof this.
(14:34):
Some of you may recognize thename Corey Ten Boom.
Corey ten boom was a Jewishperson during World War Two.
She and her sister wereharbored by a family, and eventually
theywere found and sent off to a concentration
camp.
(14:56):
Corrie ten boom.
And I believe her sister'sname was Elizabeth, if I'm remembering
that right.
Anyway, they are there, andher sister dies in the concentration
camp.
Corey survives it and comesout the other side and goes on a.
(15:16):
And she writes the book thehiding place, which is what she is
probably most known for.
And she went on this speakingtour, and she would speak about,
guess what?
Forgiveness.
And so she's speaking oneevening, she does her talk, and it
finishes up.
(15:37):
And then, as is often thecase, people line up to want to greet
the speaker.
And as Corey is meeting eachperson and talking to them and answering
questions and just receiving whatever
greeting they wanted to give her,
she caught something out of the corner
of her eye.
And there was a guy at the endof the line.
(15:58):
And every time a new personwould come to the line, he would
havethem go in front of him.
And sooner or later, the linebegan to diminish.
And eventually all that wasleft was Corey in this man.
And he comes up and he greetsher, shakes her hand and says, corey,
I want you to know that I was an
SS officer at the concentration camp
where your sister died.
(16:26):
And as you can imagine, Corey gasped.
And they went on to have alonger conversation where he communicates
toher that he has accepted Jesus as
part of his life and has turned away
from the things that he had done.
(16:49):
And he wanted to come to herand let her know that he had accepted
Christ.
And he had also changed hisways and started doing things very
differently and seeing things differently.
And he was riddled with regretover what had happened at the concentration
camp.
And never had he really metsomebody that he had impacted directly
in some ways.
(17:16):
And there they were, standingthere, and they go on to converse
andtrade stories and talk about their
relationship with Christ and all
these things.
And when it all came down tothe end, they prayed together.
Corey gave him a hug, and shewalked out.
(17:37):
And supposedly, and I don'tknow if this is true, but it was
stated that her assistant, who was
with her, heard Corey say as they
were walking out of that church tonight,
somebody was set free.
And that person was me becauseI had the opportunity to forgive.
(18:00):
And so forgiveness is not onlyfor God and what he has done for
us, but it also is for me, and it
sets me free.
Just remember one thing.
The lack of forgiveness in usis a little bit like taking rat poison
and waiting for the rat to die.
(18:22):
And so that's oftentimes whatwe do.
It is poisonous for us to hangon to our unwillingness to forgive.
Now, listen, I am not castingstones here because in so many ways,
we hang on to an edge because we
think we need that in order to finally
be free, when, in fact, it's forgiveness
that gives me, is the key to my freedom,
not the other person coming and giving
to me what I want or what I think
Ineed for me to finally be free.
(18:58):
Because ultimately, it's builtentirely on someone who may not know
or who may not even care what I want
or what I think I deserve.
And so, needless to say,forgiveness is not only for God,
it's for me.
And then the third one is.
(19:19):
The third reason for forgivingis for the other person.
Ultimately, my shorthandversion of understanding forgiveness
isthat I.
That forgiveness is mywillingness to release another person
from my demand that they change,
because that's essentially what we're
doing.
(19:44):
When we withhold forgivenessfrom somebody, we're turning it into
a contract, and we're saying, I will
forgive only if you make the changes
that I think you should make.
And so when I learn or come toa place where I can release the person
from my demand that they change,
thatthey be different, that they give
mewhat I want, it actually becomes
asilent invitation to the other person
because my demeanor with them and
my way of interacting with them changes.
(20:22):
And in a lot of cases, we canactually surprise and supplant a
cold heart by our kindness and willingness
to treat them with respect, even
though at one point in time we said
they didn't deserve it.
And so why do we forgive?
We forgive because God hasforgiven us.
We forgive because it freesme, and we forgive because it allows
the other person to be free to change
if they so choose, and they don't
have to choose, but I don't have
tobe chained to them.
(20:55):
And the last one, the lastreason here is the community of believers,
the community of people around me.
My relationships are affectedby my lack of forgiveness of other
people.
And we may not think so, butit does, because I'm drinking the
poison, waiting and nursing my anger
and nursing my demands and everything
elseagainst this other person.
(21:22):
And it's one more sip of thepoison that ends up enslaving me
to them when that's the last thing
Ireally wanted or I needed, really.
And so it affects myrelationships with the people around
me.
And that's kind of what I meanby the community of believers.
(21:42):
Now, let me do two things hereto kind of lay this all out, because
you can do a flyover of what forgiveness
looks like, and then we can land
andlook at the details, and that's kind
of what I want to do.
So one way to think aboutforgiveness is in phases, if you
will, and not steps.
(22:06):
They're phases because theytake time.
And oftentimes we have tocycle through the phase.
And the first phase, if youwill, is.
Is when it actually happens.
And see, the offense ofanother person produces hurt in me,
in the offended person.
And simultaneously, the guiltis laid upon the person who's hurt
me, on his conscience, his or her
conscience, but the offended person
also lays the guilt on the person
whohas hurt me.
(22:39):
So I'm laying guilt on them as well.
Not only does perhaps don'tknow, we don't know what's going
oninside of them, but on their conscience
aswell, that they've hurt me.
And that's really the firstphase, if you will, of forgiveness.
The second one is that I amemotionally and spiritually bound
tothe person who has hurt me by my
lack of forgiveness.
(23:05):
So I try to hold them hostagewith my forgiveness, and that grudge
sustains the hurt that I feel.
And this bondage can reallynever be broken, no matter how much
distance is put between them or anything
else.
The only thing that will.
(23:26):
That will free me from thatgrudge is forgiveness.
And this is, I can tell you,from being a counselor for as long
as I have.
This is the hot button issuein so much of the counseling I've
done with people over and over and
over again because we think the offender
should ask to be forgiven.
(23:46):
And the honest, the truth isthat they may never do it.
And then what?
Then I'm permanently chainedto the other person and waiting for
them to do something.
And so ultimately I am.
Forgiveness gives me thecapacity to sever the influence and
the pain of that grudge with the
other person.
(24:13):
And so in phase three, theoffender's guilt can only be removed
byme, the person who has been hurt.
And essentially, and we'll getto this and I'll put it in a different
context for you, but I take the hurt
on myself, whether it is requested
ornot, and I give up the right to blame
the other person for what he or she
is.
(24:39):
And this is the act of forgiveness.
It is releasing them.
Now, this is not a once and done.
It is never a once and done.
It is something we have to doon an ongoing basis for this to be
real in our lives.
If I think it's once and done,I will be disappointed and I will
beforever guilty again of not forgiving
somebody.
(25:06):
And so the last phase, if youwill, is the last kind of process.
And that's the process of megiving what is the person has done
to me, the hurt, the grudge, everything
Iturn over to, to the person who actually
can impact them directly, and that's
God.
(25:29):
Now, we may not trust God, andthat's where this comes in.
This.
This issue comes into play isthat we don't quite honestly, we
don't forgive because we don't trust
God to do it the way we think he
should.
And so we want to be able toexact the revenge on the person.
(25:52):
We want to be the ones todetermine that.
And therefore, then we areinadvertently chained still to that
person because we're not willing
to letGod do what he does best.
And that's changed the humanheart in a way that we can't see
orwe can't understand.
And if I don't trust God, thenI'm not going to do that.
(26:15):
And I will have a lifelittered with unforgiveness.
That is, I am wrapped aroundby all the chains that have chained
meto all the people that have hurt
me.
And so when I release thatother person and I give the offense
andthe grudge over to God, he can do
what he will do with them, not me.
(26:38):
That's way above my pay grade.
I don't know about any of youguys, but it is way above my pay
grade.
To know what fits the personand the consequences that they suffer.
And they may, I may not everknow it.
And that's just it.
I hang on to my unforgivenessbecause I want to be able to see
that they are suffering, that they
are experiencing what I believe they
deserve.
(27:06):
But now I have placed myselfin the position of God knowing all
things.
Because our sense of justice,don't forget this.
As our sense of justice isviolated by grace.
It is always violated by grace.
And that's why we don't likeit, quite honestly, because we lose
some semblance of control over the
outcome, because we give the outcome
ultimately to God, who really knows
what he's doing.
(27:38):
Now, again, like I said, if Idon't trust God, I am not going to
do this.
And that's the choice I could make.
And I can live chained to theother person.
I've seen it.
I have seen it in thecounseling office.
Over and over and over again,people have chained themselves to
this other person, nursing this anger
and this grudge and this offense
solong, and they're the only ones that
are getting poisoned.
(28:10):
H.
Norman Wright wrote a book,and it was entitled Always Daddy's
Girl.
And he puts it this way.
He says, forgiveness involvesletting go.
Remember playing tug of war asa child?
As long as the parties on eachend of the rope are tugging, you
have a quote unquote war.
(28:30):
But when someone lets go, thewar is over.
When you forgive, you'reletting go of your end of the rope.
No matter how.
Excuse me.
No matter how hard the otherperson may tug on the other end,
ifyou've released your end, the war
is over for you.
(28:52):
That's one way.
That's an overview of the forgiveness.
Now, let me.
Let me deal with one thingbefore I go any further.
Excuse me?
Let me deal with one thing.
And it is a massive lie thatis floating around in a lot of christians
heads.
(29:12):
And I know because I've heard it.
I've heard it so many times.
And the lie is this, I need toforgive myself.
So when we blow it and dosomething, we know, and I've had
people actually say, I know God is
forgiving me, but I just need to
forgive myself.
And we say it over and overagain as if we're the final arbiter
of myself.
(29:36):
Forget about the fact that thejudge, jury and executioner has already
decided in my head.
So let me, let me just giveyou an example here, okay?
Let's say that tomorrowmorning I'm backing out of my driveway
and I crush my neighbor's mailbox.
I mean, I crush it beyondrecognition, beyond use at all.
(30:01):
Now the question is, what can happen?
Either he or she will notforgive me and I buy him or her a
new mailbox.
Or they can quote unquote,forgive me, say it's okay, but they
will have to buy the new mailbox.
Either way, someone has to buythe new mailbox.
(30:26):
Now understand this.
Forgiveness always involves a cost.
And forgiveness is thetransfer of that cost from one to
another.
But forgiveness always has a cost.
And so when we decide to goour own way and do it our own way,
different than what God has said
isbest, we're going to pay a cost for
doing it our own way.
(30:57):
We are.
It's called consequences.
We live in a world ofconsequences now.
We want to make it so therearen't any.
But then I don't have.
I can't really learn anythingwhen it comes right down to it.
So what do I do with the costof my misbehavior, my.
(31:18):
My sinfulness, my hurtingother people, my making the kind
ofmistakes that are really very driven
by me?
Someone has to pay the cost,and I will in relationships, because
the person will move away or will
create distance or create the boundaries
necessary, because I am not reliable
andI have been hurtful, and they're
notwilling to remain in relationship.
(31:46):
That's a cost.
But doing it my own way,particularly different than what
Godhas said, is best, I continue to
pay that cost.
And the wonder of grace isthat God says, listen, I know your
ledger sheet is dripping in red.
(32:08):
There is no way you can pay it all.
I'll pay it for you.
And that's exactly what Jesusdying on the cross was.
It was the cost.
Forgiveness always involvestransferring the cost.
Okay, so now if what we'retalking about is forgiving myself,
whatthat actually means, given the understanding
that forgiveness is transferring
the cost,then I am transferring the cost from
myself to myself, and I'm still carrying
the cost.
(32:48):
And there's no way to do this.
This is logically impossible.
As a matter of fact, itmanages to put me in the position
of Godagain, to say that I have to do something
more than what Jesus did at the cross
in order for me to feel, quote unquote,
feel forgiven.
(33:15):
So when you hear somebody say,I can't forgive myself, don't say
it to them, but you can think it
in your head, you've got my permission
ifyou need it.
You can't.
It's logically impossible.
The beauty of the cross is youdon't have to forgive yourself.
And quite honestly, our enemywants us to believe there's something
more that we need to do, more than
what Jesus did for us.
(33:42):
So you can choose how you see fit.
And Jesus is not the person ina church that told you something
wrong.
He isn't.
And so I don't need to doanything more.
What it means, grace means itis impossible to forgive myself.
(34:02):
And then what that also meansis that I have to grapple with the
humility to accept the grace is being
offered me.
That's what forgiveness is.
Henry now was very blunt whenhe said that forgiveness is grace
inaction, in relationships, and that
forgiveness is done amongst people
wholove poorly.
(34:31):
And so what I want to do, andthat's, I I'm going to put a period
on that.
And then now pivot, because Ithink that that lie still lurks in
the background of so many people,
and Ihave heard, heard it so many times,
and unfortunately, I can't contain
myself.
(34:51):
And whenever somebody says, Iguess I just need to forgive myself,
Iend up blurting out unreservedly
and maybeunempathically when I say, you can't.
You've already decided your fate.
So how in the world are yougoing to release yourself from the
fate that you've already decided?
You have.
(35:12):
Okay, enough.
Enough.
So what I want you tounderstand is that there are two
different kinds of forgiveness.
There's superficial andthere's genuine superficial.
The way that I think about itis the way to kind of describe it
is it goes like this.
It says, oh, I'm sorry.
(35:34):
That's okay.
And the reality is, is thatsuperficial forgiveness is little
morethan a social convention.
Ultimately, it is designed tominimize the harm to the other person
who has hurt us.
And so for the offender, it'san attempt to minimize the impact,
impact on the offended.
(35:55):
Oh, I'm sorry.
I'm sorry.
And I have seen so many timespeople say, oh, that's okay.
And it's like, no, it's not okay.
It is not okay.
And just saying you're sorryis for your own guilt.
It isn't for the person thatyou've actually hurt.
And so for the offended, forthe person who's been hurt, it removes
the burden of guilt from the offender
orthe tension they feel.
(36:23):
Somewhere, somehow, we havegotten the notion that we're responsible
for the discomfort somebody feels
because they have hurt us.
We're responsible for it.
So now we're blaming thevictim here, and that's a big, big
part of it.
(36:43):
So superficial.
Forgiveness is oftentimescarried into, oh, I'm sorry.
And the other person says,that's okay.
The thing to keep in mindabout genuine forgiveness is it is
a decision and it is a process.
(37:04):
Most of the time, we thinkthat if I decide to forgive, then
forgiveness will occur, and it won't.
We have to figure out some wayof doing it differently, of going
through the process of recovery.
Interestingly enough, and I'lljust say this as kind of a sidelight,
there is a lot of parallels between
forgiveness and grief and processing
our grief.
(37:32):
In a lot of ways, the grief ina relationship, in the rupture of
a relationship, is very connected
becausesuddenly the person isn't what I
thought they were, didn't do what
Iwould expect them to do.
And now I have to adjust.
I have to.
I have lost the image of whatI had of the person.
(37:53):
And so it's a decision and a process.
What's the process?
And the first and foremost ofthat process is to recognize how
I've actually been hurt.
How in the world can Iactually seek to find healing for
the injury that has occurred if I
don't pay attention to what has actually
happened, and I don't recognize the
nature of the injury that has occurred,
how it's impacted me, and sometimes
it'syears later, and then I'm in the
future and I can look back at the
impact that the other person has
had on me.
(38:37):
And I may not have done theforgiveness, and now I'm faced with
that, and I've got to start with,
howhave I actually been hurt?
And then the second thing Ihave to do is I have to identify
thefeelings that come with it.
Interesting thing about ourfeelings is they tend to take us
back to the things that we are covering
over, and they often reveal the very
things that we have to find a way
to let go of through the process
of forgiveness.
(39:10):
I can't let go of something.
I have not identified what itactually is.
And our feelings oftentimespoint to that.
Our thoughts are usually theprocess of defending us against the
things that our feelings are pointing
to.
And then the third thing Ihave to do is find someone mature
enough and trustworthy enough to
be able to talk about and express
thesefeelings that I have, the feelings
ofgrief and betrayal and abandonment
and allthe things and hurt that goes with
it.
(39:44):
I have to find somebody matureenough and trustworthy enough to
share that with.
What that means is they willnot try to fix you.
They will not try to slap aplatitude or a Bible verse on you,
and they will enter in with you and
help you through the process as you
go.
(40:07):
Now, somebody out there maysay, well, wait a minute.
A scripture verse is great.
It helps people anchorthemselves about forgiveness.
Well, maybe.
But an ill timed truth isexperienced as a white hot dagger.
(40:28):
An ill time truth isexperienced like a weapon.
So I have to figure out thetruth that I offer them may not be
God's truth.
It may be the truth of mypresence to be with them in the midst
of all that they're feeling.
(40:49):
And then the fourth thing is,I got to set boundaries to protect
myself from the harm the person has
done.
Perhaps I'm still around this person.
Then I need to go back, listento the last episode 42 about how
toset boundaries to protect myself
fromthe harm that's going on from the
person.
(41:10):
Now look at this.
The first four steps, if youwill, of this process or characteristics
ofrecognizing the injury, identifying
thefeelings I have, expressing them
assomebody trustworthy, and setting
boundaries.
I have said nothing about thedebt because I can't, forget cancel
a debt.
(41:34):
I have not identified what thedebt is.
So this process that I've justdescribed is necessary before we
ever get to finally canceling the
debt.
And that is.
That is not easy.
(41:55):
Now understand something.
Not everything that weexperience has to go through this
lengthy.
This doesn't have to be alengthy process, but somebody who
says something insensitively, it
could fit into this, or it could
be,you know, they are displaying some.
(42:21):
Some unguarded words, and wegive them the feedback on it and
it's done.
But in a lot of cases, wedon't give people feedback, and then
we harbor the anger and frustration
andoffense over something they've said
and never said anything to them.
And they are completely in thedark, and I am in the.
(42:44):
In the shadows nursing mywounds and demanding restitution.
So canceling the debt is anongoing process.
And only then, after I havestarted through that process of canceling
the debt, do I consider or pray or
even seek reconciliation.
(43:06):
Now understand something.
Reconciliation is not the sameas forgiveness.
Forgiveness is a one way street.
It is from me to the personwho has offended me.
It is not a two way street.
Reconciliation is a bilateralmeeting of the minds and the hearts
ofthe people that we're talking about
here, and it cannot be done if the
other person doesn't believe they've
done anything wrong.
(43:37):
And what that means then isthat a lot of times, reconciliation
won't happen.
Now, there's one other thing Iwant to mention.
And that's on the flip side of forgiveness.
And that's the topic ofconfession and repentance.
And confession literally meansto say the same Thing as.
(43:58):
The question is to say thesame thing as what?
And it's to say the same thingas what I have done to the other
person.
That's what confession is tosay the same thing as.
So when I confess, I say whatI've actually done to the other person.
(44:20):
And so confession is thestarting point of the process of
repentance.
Repentance, on the other hand,is actually captured in scripture,
ifyou're curious, because in Hebrew,
there really isn't a word for repentance.
It's called teshuva.
It means to return is theHebrew word in the New Testament
we use.
(44:45):
The Greek is translated into Metanoia.
In other words, a change of mind.
When Jesus told the story ofthe prodigal son, he actually captured
both of these things.
When the young man is sitting,considering having lunch with the
pigs in the pig pen, and it says,
hechanged his mind.
(45:08):
And then he went home.
He experienced metanoia, andthen he went home.
He returned.
He returned.
And so repentance means to notonly return to the place of reconciliation,
theplace of that I can confess, the
place for possible repentance.
(45:34):
I mean, ultimately, repentanceis repentance.
It is not a contract.
If I repent, then I get forgiven.
That's not what this is about.
This is the other one waystreet that meets in the intersection
of reconciliation.
And so repentance, just likeforgiveness, is a superficial kind
where it says, I'm sorry, but.
(45:55):
And the person gets selfrighteous about what they did, and
they end up finding fault in the
other person.
If you hadn't said it the wayyou did, then I wouldn't have stuck
my foot in my mouth, for example.
And they end up superficialrepentance ends up having an attitude
like, well, I'm glad that I got that
over.
And so they're uttering justthe right words, and they end up
getting very defensive in the face
of the consequences they experience
around that.
(46:23):
And so they compare their sinto other people, what they have done,
their behavior to other people, in
order to minimize it.
And sometimes they end upfeeling very confused about what
torepent because they're not paying
attention to it at all.
And so oftentimes, superficialrepentance ends up, they're not specific.
(46:44):
So somebody says, I'm sorry.
And you might look at them andsay, what are you sorry about?
And they'll say, well, I don'tknow, but I think I'm supposed to
do that now.
And so that would besuperficial repentance.
And then finally, genuinerepentance acknowledges the wrong
that has been done, the impact that
it actually has, and the communication
thatthey will seek to repair the thing
that has happened, the wrongdoing.
(47:15):
But they admit theirwrongdoing without any buts, without
any clauses, without any conditional
termsthat say, yeah, but.
And that ultimately is what itlooks like.
Now, if you've ever.
I am a fan of the artist Rembrandt.
(47:36):
I have two of them in my office.
One is the return of the Prodigal.
And Henry Nouwen actuallywrites a very compelling book about
that painting, the return of the
Prodigal.
That's the name of his book.
I highly recommend it.
But what does it look likewhen the prodigal changes his mind
in the pig pen and returns home?
(48:04):
And what we're told in that story?
And that's a remarkable storywhen you really think about it.
It really is a very remarkablestory, because Jesus is telling that
story about, about what forgiveness
looks like.
Peter had just asked him, howoften do I need to repent?
And Peter thought he wasoverdoing it when he said, seven
times, and Jesus said, no, 70 times
seven.
(48:30):
It doesn't mean 490.
It means infinitely.
And so Jesus goes on to tellthe story of lost things.
He talks about the widow thathas a lost coin and the shepherd
thathas a lost sheep.
And then he tells the story ofthe prodigal, and it's the lost son.
(48:53):
And he tells his dad, I wishyou were dead.
Give me my inheritance now.
And he goes off.
He spends his inheritance andwine women in song, and he ends up
being destitute in a pig pen.
A jewish kid having to dealwith pigs.
What a humiliating thing.
(49:14):
And so he decides to go home.
And on his way home, he'srehearsing his speech to his dad,
saying, look, I don't deserve to
be your son.
I'll just be a servant, andI'll just gladly live where the servants
live.
I don't need to be that person.
And as he's approaching, andthink this through, as he's approaching,
hisdad catches sight of him.
(49:40):
How does his dad catch sightof him?
Because he's watching the road.
He's watching the road for hisson to come home.
And when he sees him, he hikesup his robes, throwing to the wind
all of the social conventions, and
runs to him and throws his arms around
him.
(50:03):
The son says, wait wait, wait.
I've got a speech I gotta tell you.
And the father says, no, no,no, nothing like that.
Silences him and says, no, no.
And he puts his.
He says, get the best robe.
And putting.
Put it on my son.
(50:24):
Who owns the best robe in the house?
The father does.
He says, here, put a ring onhis finger to signify that he has
come home.
He has returned to theidentity of my son.
And he put sandals on his feetbecause he was walking barefoot,
and allthe accumulated dirt and grime and
everything of his trip could be covered
with the sandals.
(50:54):
And the father says, kill thefattened calf because we are going
tohave a party, because my son, who
was gone, has now returned.
That is the picture ofrepentance, of forgiveness and of
reconciliation.
(51:14):
And so we have the beautifulpicture of reconciliation where one
has, I would suggest to you the father
has already forgiven him.
That's what makes it possiblefor him to run out to his son.
The son has repented becausehe has returned.
He's gone home, and he haschanged his mind, and he's going
todo life differently now.
(51:41):
That is forgiveness.
That is repentance, and thatis reconciliation.
And so the relationshipswithin the outpost have to be relationships
that are marked by forgiveness and
repentance and reconciliation.
We can't make reconciliationhappen, but we can forgive, and we
can repent.
(52:08):
Repent is not a word you hearvery much of confession sometimes,
butrepentance is not a word that you
hear very much of, really, even in
the christian realm.
We do it in the context of our salvation.
But what about the rest of ourlives and the rest of the impacts
onour relationships and so forth?
(52:30):
And so forgiveness andrepentance and reconciliation are
the earmarks of relationships in
the outpost.
And that's what we seek tofacilitate, to encourage, to model
inour relationships in the outpost.
(52:52):
And that's the ultimate priceto be paid.
Remember, forgiveness is atransfer of cost.
A transfer of cost.
And we can accept the gracethat is offered us when we have blown
it.
And we come to God and say,I've blown it, and I know I have.
(53:15):
This is nothing, what youwould want for me.
And it's taken me away fromyou, and that's what I.
And that's.
That's what I've done, and I'm.
I'm owning it for what it is.
And we don't have to say we're not.
We will.
I won't let that happen ever again.
Don't say that.
Yes, you will.
(53:36):
We will.
We will make mistakes again,we will blow it again.
The issue isn't whether I doit again.
The issue is, am I on the roadto continuing to try to grow and
tochange into the person that God is
actually seeking for me to become?
And that's why he offers methe forgiveness, because he offers
methe freedom to be able to embrace
thegrace he has given me.
(54:04):
And that's it for tonight.
Sgi dash net.org dot thanks somuch for joining me.
That's the digital home forthe SGI community.
If you have questions oranything that you'd like to send
me,you can do it on Instagram by dming
me, or you can do it on the website.
(54:27):
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(54:54):
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(55:15):
The other feature that's onthe website that I'll just mention
isthe digital devotionals.
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I'mtalking about.
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Give you plenty to think aboutin terms of your relationships.
(55:36):
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(55:57):
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(56:17):
So explore it.
Look at the store.
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orthe two books that I've written,
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And you can certainly do anyof that there.
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(56:43):
Or if you'd rather, you canalways send us a check to SGI, PO
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So that is it for tonight.
Thanks so much for joining me.
And until next week, love you.
(57:03):
Later, bye.
Imagine for a moment that youare a road weary traveler.
You're tired, you're hungry,and wondering if there will ever
bea safe place to rest.
You've been told there's anoutpost ahead that provides safety
information for the road ahead and
people who understand what the journey
is like.
You keep scanning the horizon,hoping against hope that it will
be there.
(00:25):
Then, as you come over a risein the terrain, you suddenly catch
aglimpse of it.
There it stands, beckoning youto come and find the rest you need.
You're moments away from the outpost.
Welcome, everybody, to anotheredition of the Outpost.
I am Doctor Ray Mitch, your host.
(00:46):
Thanks so much for taking sometime out of your busy schedule to
listen in.
Perhaps we will hit on somekey issues that are of interest to
you.
This particular one, I thinkthe topic for tonight is one that
isprobably would fall under a hot button
issue.
(01:07):
I think, if I were realhonest, and based on most of the
reactions I have gotten when I've
talked about this, it is a common
issue within relationships, not only
in what I'm referring to as the outpost,
but also just in relationships in
general.
So before I get into that, let me.
(01:27):
Let me describe a little bitif you're listening for the very
first time.
Welcome.
I'm so glad that you've.
That you are checking us out.
What is the outpost?
Well, the outpost is a digitalplace where we're trying to build
bridges back to faith or strengthen
bridges of faith that are built on
authenticity, on grace and truth,
andon knowing and being known.
(01:54):
And so, depending on whatyou're bringing with you into listening
to this podcast, you bring you with
you.
And so all of those issues,whether it's about the topics I might
be talking about, or hopefully, lord
willing, the people I might interview,
it's going to be the filter through
which you listen to everything I
have to say.
(02:21):
And that's just there.
It's not really a matter ofit's good or bad or anything.
It just is there.
We listen with filters,whether we know it or not.
There's always some kind ofbias, maybe even some measure of
woundedness that we bring to listening
tosome of the topics that I am trying
totalk about in some practical sort
ofway, hopefully, particularly the
one that I want to touch on tonight.
(02:50):
So what we're trying to do isto create a space where the doubters,
thewounded, the confused, the beat up
and beat down, the bent and bruised
whofeel like their lives are a disappointment
toGod, can feel accepted enough to
be known and know others and this,
this can be done in a variety of
ways, which we have found out even
since the strike of the pandemic
and wewere trying to relate through a screen.
(03:19):
It would be preferable if wedo this in person to person, eye
toeye, in the presence of others, to
be able to see and hear their reactions
to us.
But we have to have the kindof place where we feel safe enough
andaccepted enough to do that.
We seek to be ultimately thekind of place where people can meet
and bump into the biblical Jesus
ashe is, not as they have been told
heis, or that they've heard he is,
orthe caricature of what they believe
he is.
(03:54):
And that's one of the biasesthat we may have to deal with, is
what I believe to be true.
And maybe it isn't.
Maybe.
I think ultimately weconstruct our way of understanding
who Jesusis by the people who identify themselves
with Jesus.
(04:16):
And that's unfortunate becausethey are a very pallid reflection
of whohe is and the nature of who he is.
And so unfortunately, thenumber of people you bump into who
are very confident in what they think
Jesus is are the very first ones
youshould probably ignore.
(04:39):
And the ones that are stilltrying to figure it out, those are
the ones that you probably should
payattention to.
So let me get into this.
Pull up a chair.
Get comfortable, relax.
Maybe you're on a walk or run.
And I want to talk about thethings that really matter wherever,
wherewe live, where we.
(05:00):
How we think and how we feelabout living life with others and
even in our spiritual life.
So.
And this is the topic, okay?
And all I can say is probablybuckle up because the topic is, this
is what.
What about forgiveness?
(05:20):
Like, forgive and forget?
And the reality is there is nosuch thing.
It does not exist in the Bible.
Quite honestly, this is one ofthese phrases that tends to really
getme grinding my teeth, partly because
we, we can't forget.
Neither should we forget now.
Forgive, yes, absolutely.
(05:42):
But forgive, no, I.
That quite honestly, from a,from a psychological point of view,
forgetting is dangerous.
And if you ever meet somebodythat forgets stuff, we would look
atthat as problematic.
Right?
I mean, the first indicationsof dementia, sometimes, not always,
maybe it's just old age, I should
know, is forgetfulness.
(06:09):
And that can be because wehave a lot on our minds and we're
distracted and we're not paying attention.
It can be a lot of different things.
But usually forgetfulness isusually an indication to us that
something's up.
And so when we come up withthese phrases, and there's another
oneI want to touch on.
(06:30):
That's a hot button for me.
I don't know about any of you,but it is for me, and I'll let you
in on that in a second.
But forgive and forget is oneof these things that really can't
be done.
And when it is implied orimposed, we're doomed because we
can't.
And neither should we.
Because in a lot of cases, thepeople that we are seeking to forgive
continue to behave in the way that
prompted the woundedness in the first
place and my need to forgive them.
(07:03):
And so I should be remember, Ishould remember of the nature of
what they do.
And maybe it would take youback then to the last episode when
Iwas talking about setting boundaries
andhaving healthy boundaries in relationships,
because that's a very important part,
ultimately, of the process to forgiveness.
(07:27):
Now, there is only one person,one being in the universe that can
forget.
And that's what I want topoint out to you.
And there was a prophet in theOld Testament, and he was, he was
often feeling like he really didn't
want to be a prophet because the
people he had to talk to were really
tough.
(07:56):
And he says this, he says, andhe's talking for God.
And he says, for this is thecovenant I will make with the house
of Israel after those days, after
they have lost their land and been
displaced and everything else, and
maybe even the end of time, maybe
tothe point of where we are today,
because God says, I will put my law
within them.
(08:21):
I will write it on theirhearts, and I will be their God,
andthey shall be my people.
And no longer shall each oneteach his neighbor and each his brother,
saying, know the Lord, for they all
will know me from the least to the
greatest.
And it says, for I willforgive their iniquity, their sin,
and I will forget their sin.
(08:44):
I will remember their sin no more.
There is only one being in theuniverse that can do that, and that's
the one that knows everything.
But we're always learning, andforgetting is not a good thing.
I have had many instanceswhere I've shown students videos
ofpeople that have forgotten have had
an impact on their ability to remember.
(09:13):
And everything about us hingeson our ability to remember things,
including our name, including who
we are, including seeing ourselves
in themirror and saying, that's me.
All of that is dependent on remembering.
And so to say, forgive andforget is a cheap way to say, I'll
make believe that what you did didn't
matter is really what it ends up
being.
(09:41):
So let me give you some reason.
Let me start with why.
Why should I bother forgiving?
And ultimately, in theultimate sense, the first reason
forforgiving is because we've been forgiven
and God has made it possible for
usto live forgiven.
(10:03):
And so, in a lot of ways, Godis the ultimate creditor, and we
owe him everything.
And so when somebody comes tous or hurts us or whatever, for us
to hang on to our grievances against
them is to some degree, saying, well,
God, you can forgive me, but I don't
have to forgive anybody else.
(10:26):
And in a lot of instances, wecan look at some of the stories Jesus
told about a servant in particular
thatsaid he went into his master, he
owed him so much money.
Let me give you an example anda proportion here.
That servant goes into.
The master says, pleaseforgive my debt.
(10:47):
Now, that word is not only aspiritual or religious word, it is
a financial term.
You go in to your local bankerand say, how do I get rid of my mortgage?
And they will say, then whatyou're asking me to do is to forgive
your mortgage.
(11:09):
And essentially, the servantgoes into the ruler or the landowner
orwhoever he is, and he owes him so
much money that if you were to load
one person down with a five pound
bagof silver and line them all up about
a yard apart, the line would stretch
for 5 miles.
(11:41):
That's how much silver thatservant, that person owed his master.
That's how much.
And.
And the landowner, or whoeverhe is, says, okay, I'll forgive your
debt.
(12:01):
And then the servant goes out,finds a friend of his that owes him
a 20.
$20 because of maybe they.
They had a card game orwhatever, started choking him.
And the guy says, I'll get youyour money, repeating what that other
person said to the person that he
owed money to, I'll get you your
money.
(12:24):
And his friend says that, andhe throws them in jail because he
owes him money.
And the ruler or thelandowner, whoever it is, gets word
of this mandev because this man had
been forgiven all of that debt, probably
the equivalent of about $5 million.
(12:48):
And he's choking his friendfor $20.
And it grieved him.
It grieved him.
And that's the sameproportionality that we have with
God.
He says, I will forgive your debt.
As a matter of fact, I'll paythe cost, and I'll talk about that
in a second.
(13:08):
So why forgive?
The first and foremost one isessentially, God has given us a model
for releasing people from our demand
that they change and let God be the
one to deal with them.
Okay?
So the first one's God.
Why forgive?
Because God has forgiven me.
(13:29):
The second one is me.
And the reason I put me inthere is because one of the things
that most of us do not recognize
is thatwhen I hang on to a grudge or something
against another person because they
hurt me or whatever it is, and I
hang on to it so tightly because
theyowe me.
(13:52):
They owe me something.
They owe me an apology.
They owe me to restore whatthey have taken from me, whether
that'sin a relationship or whether that's
inthe relationship, they took something
from me.
And so essentially what I dois say, okay, you owe me.
(14:13):
And I'm going to hang on tothis until you finally figure out
what you owe me and you give it back
to me.
And ultimately, the reason forforgiving is because the person who
is.
Is freed is me.
Now let me give you an exampleof this.
(14:34):
Some of you may recognize thename Corey Ten Boom.
Corey ten boom was a Jewishperson during World War Two.
She and her sister wereharbored by a family, and eventually
theywere found and sent off to a concentration
camp.
(14:56):
Corrie ten boom.
And I believe her sister'sname was Elizabeth, if I'm remembering
that right.
Anyway, they are there, andher sister dies in the concentration
camp.
Corey survives it and comesout the other side and goes on a.
(15:16):
And she writes the book thehiding place, which is what she is
probably most known for.
And she went on this speakingtour, and she would speak about,
guess what?
Forgiveness.
And so she's speaking oneevening, she does her talk, and it
finishes up.
(15:37):
And then, as is often thecase, people line up to want to greet
the speaker.
And as Corey is meeting eachperson and talking to them and answering
questions and just receiving whatever
greeting they wanted to give her,
she caught something out of the corner
of her eye.
And there was a guy at the endof the line.
(15:58):
And every time a new personwould come to the line, he would
havethem go in front of him.
And sooner or later, the linebegan to diminish.
And eventually all that wasleft was Corey in this man.
And he comes up and he greetsher, shakes her hand and says, corey,
I want you to know that I was an
SS officer at the concentration camp
where your sister died.
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And as you can imagine, Corey gasped.
And they went on to have alonger conversation where he communicates
toher that he has accepted Jesus as
part of his life and has turned away
from the things that he had done.
(16:49):
And he wanted to come to herand let her know that he had accepted
Christ.
And he had also changed hisways and started doing things very
differently and seeing things differently.
And he was riddled with regretover what had happened at the concentration
camp.
And never had he really metsomebody that he had impacted directly
in some ways.
(17:16):
And there they were, standingthere, and they go on to converse
andtrade stories and talk about their
relationship with Christ and all
these things.
And when it all came down tothe end, they prayed together.
Corey gave him a hug, and shewalked out.
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And supposedly, and I don'tknow if this is true, but it was
stated that her assistant, who was
with her, heard Corey say as they
were walking out of that church tonight,
somebody was set free.
And that person was me becauseI had the opportunity to forgive.
(18:00):
And so forgiveness is not onlyfor God and what he has done for
us, but it also is for me, and it
sets me free.
Just remember one thing.
The lack of forgiveness in usis a little bit like taking rat poison
and waiting for the rat to die.
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And so that's oftentimes whatwe do.
It is poisonous for us to hangon to our unwillingness to forgive.
Now, listen, I am not castingstones here because in so many ways,
we hang on to an edge because we
think we need that in order to finally
be free, when, in fact, it's forgiveness
that gives me, is the key to my freedom,
not the other person coming and giving
to me what I want or what I think
Ineed for me to finally be free.
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Because ultimately, it's builtentirely on someone who may not know
or who may not even care what I want
or what I think I deserve.
And so, needless to say,forgiveness is not only for God,
it's for me.
And then the third one is.
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The third reason for forgivingis for the other person.
Ultimately, my shorthandversion of understanding forgiveness
isthat I.
That forgiveness is mywillingness to release another person
from my demand that they change,
because that's essentially what we're
doing.
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When we withhold forgivenessfrom somebody, we're turning it into
a contract, and we're saying, I will
forgive only if you make the changes
that I think you should make.
And so when I learn or come toa place where I can release the person
from my demand that they change,
thatthey be different, that they give
mewhat I want, it actually becomes
asilent invitation to the other person
because my demeanor with them and
my way of interacting with them changes.
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And in a lot of cases, we canactually surprise and supplant a
cold heart by our kindness and willingness
to treat them with respect, even
though at one point in time we said
they didn't deserve it.
And so why do we forgive?
We forgive because God hasforgiven us.
We forgive because it freesme, and we forgive because it allows
the other person to be free to change
if they so choose, and they don't
have to choose, but I don't have
tobe chained to them.
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And the last one, the lastreason here is the community of believers,
the community of people around me.
My relationships are affectedby my lack of forgiveness of other
people.
And we may not think so, butit does, because I'm drinking the
poison, waiting and nursing my anger
and nursing my demands and everything
elseagainst this other person.
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And it's one more sip of thepoison that ends up enslaving me
to them when that's the last thing
Ireally wanted or I needed, really.
And so it affects myrelationships with the people around
me.
And that's kind of what I meanby the community of believers.
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Now, let me do two things hereto kind of lay this all out, because
you can do a flyover of what forgiveness
looks like, and then we can land
andlook at the details, and that's kind
of what I want to do.
So one way to think aboutforgiveness is in phases, if you
will, and not steps.
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They're phases because theytake time.
And oftentimes we have tocycle through the phase.
And the first phase, if youwill, is.
Is when it actually happens.
And see, the offense ofanother person produces hurt in me,
in the offended person.
And simultaneously, the guiltis laid upon the person who's hurt
me, on his conscience, his or her
conscience, but the offended person
also lays the guilt on the person
whohas hurt me.
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So I'm laying guilt on them as well.
Not only does perhaps don'tknow, we don't know what's going
oninside of them, but on their conscience
aswell, that they've hurt me.
And that's really the firstphase, if you will, of forgiveness.
The second one is that I amemotionally and spiritually bound
tothe person who has hurt me by my
lack of forgiveness.
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So I try to hold them hostagewith my forgiveness, and that grudge
sustains the hurt that I feel.
And this bondage can reallynever be broken, no matter how much
distance is put between them or anything
else.
The only thing that will.
(23:26):
That will free me from thatgrudge is forgiveness.
And this is, I can tell you,from being a counselor for as long
as I have.
This is the hot button issuein so much of the counseling I've
done with people over and over and
over again because we think the offender
should ask to be forgiven.
(23:46):
And the honest, the truth isthat they may never do it.
And then what?
Then I'm permanently chainedto the other person and waiting for
them to do something.
And so ultimately I am.
Forgiveness gives me thecapacity to sever the influence and
the pain of that grudge with the
other person.
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And so in phase three, theoffender's guilt can only be removed
byme, the person who has been hurt.
And essentially, and we'll getto this and I'll put it in a different
context for you, but I take the hurt
on myself, whether it is requested
ornot, and I give up the right to blame
the other person for what he or she
is.
(24:39):
And this is the act of forgiveness.
It is releasing them.
Now, this is not a once and done.
It is never a once and done.
It is something we have to doon an ongoing basis for this to be
real in our lives.
If I think it's once and done,I will be disappointed and I will
beforever guilty again of not forgiving
somebody.
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And so the last phase, if youwill, is the last kind of process.
And that's the process of megiving what is the person has done
to me, the hurt, the grudge, everything
Iturn over to, to the person who actually
can impact them directly, and that's
God.
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Now, we may not trust God, andthat's where this comes in.
This.
This issue comes into play isthat we don't quite honestly, we
don't forgive because we don't trust
God to do it the way we think he
should.
And so we want to be able toexact the revenge on the person.
(25:52):
We want to be the ones todetermine that.
And therefore, then we areinadvertently chained still to that
person because we're not willing
to letGod do what he does best.
And that's changed the humanheart in a way that we can't see
orwe can't understand.
And if I don't trust God, thenI'm not going to do that.
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And I will have a lifelittered with unforgiveness.
That is, I am wrapped aroundby all the chains that have chained
meto all the people that have hurt
me.
And so when I release thatother person and I give the offense
andthe grudge over to God, he can do
what he will do with them, not me.
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That's way above my pay grade.
I don't know about any of youguys, but it is way above my pay
grade.
To know what fits the personand the consequences that they suffer.
And they may, I may not everknow it.
And that's just it.
I hang on to my unforgivenessbecause I want to be able to see
that they are suffering, that they
are experiencing what I believe they
deserve.
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But now I have placed myselfin the position of God knowing all
things.
Because our sense of justice,don't forget this.
As our sense of justice isviolated by grace.
It is always violated by grace.
And that's why we don't likeit, quite honestly, because we lose
some semblance of control over the
outcome, because we give the outcome
ultimately to God, who really knows
what he's doing.
(27:38):
Now, again, like I said, if Idon't trust God, I am not going to
do this.
And that's the choice I could make.
And I can live chained to theother person.
I've seen it.
I have seen it in thecounseling office.
Over and over and over again,people have chained themselves to
this other person, nursing this anger
and this grudge and this offense
solong, and they're the only ones that
are getting poisoned.
(28:10):
H.
Norman Wright wrote a book,and it was entitled Always Daddy's
Girl.
And he puts it this way.
He says, forgiveness involvesletting go.
Remember playing tug of war asa child?
As long as the parties on eachend of the rope are tugging, you
have a quote unquote war.
(28:30):
But when someone lets go, thewar is over.
When you forgive, you'reletting go of your end of the rope.
No matter how.
Excuse me.
No matter how hard the otherperson may tug on the other end,
ifyou've released your end, the war
is over for you.
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That's one way.
That's an overview of the forgiveness.
Now, let me.
Let me deal with one thingbefore I go any further.
Excuse me?
Let me deal with one thing.
And it is a massive lie thatis floating around in a lot of christians
heads.
(29:12):
And I know because I've heard it.
I've heard it so many times.
And the lie is this, I need toforgive myself.
So when we blow it and dosomething, we know, and I've had
people actually say, I know God is
forgiving me, but I just need to
forgive myself.
And we say it over and overagain as if we're the final arbiter
of myself.
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Forget about the fact that thejudge, jury and executioner has already
decided in my head.
So let me, let me just giveyou an example here, okay?
Let's say that tomorrowmorning I'm backing out of my driveway
and I crush my neighbor's mailbox.
I mean, I crush it beyondrecognition, beyond use at all.
(30:01):
Now the question is, what can happen?
Either he or she will notforgive me and I buy him or her a
new mailbox.
Or they can quote unquote,forgive me, say it's okay, but they
will have to buy the new mailbox.
Either way, someone has to buythe new mailbox.
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Now understand this.
Forgiveness always involves a cost.
And forgiveness is thetransfer of that cost from one to
another.
But forgiveness always has a cost.
And so when we decide to goour own way and do it our own way,
different than what God has said
isbest, we're going to pay a cost for
doing it our own way.
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We are.
It's called consequences.
We live in a world ofconsequences now.
We want to make it so therearen't any.
But then I don't have.
I can't really learn anythingwhen it comes right down to it.
So what do I do with the costof my misbehavior, my.
(31:18):
My sinfulness, my hurtingother people, my making the kind
ofmistakes that are really very driven
by me?
Someone has to pay the cost,and I will in relationships, because
the person will move away or will
create distance or create the boundaries
necessary, because I am not reliable
andI have been hurtful, and they're
notwilling to remain in relationship.
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That's a cost.
But doing it my own way,particularly different than what
Godhas said, is best, I continue to
pay that cost.
And the wonder of grace isthat God says, listen, I know your
ledger sheet is dripping in red.
(32:08):
There is no way you can pay it all.
I'll pay it for you.
And that's exactly what Jesusdying on the cross was.
It was the cost.
Forgiveness always involvestransferring the cost.
Okay, so now if what we'retalking about is forgiving myself,
whatthat actually means, given the understanding
that forgiveness is transferring
the cost,then I am transferring the cost from
myself to myself, and I'm still carrying
the cost.
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And there's no way to do this.
This is logically impossible.
As a matter of fact, itmanages to put me in the position
of Godagain, to say that I have to do something
more than what Jesus did at the cross
in order for me to feel, quote unquote,
feel forgiven.
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So when you hear somebody say,I can't forgive myself, don't say
it to them, but you can think it
in your head, you've got my permission
ifyou need it.
You can't.
It's logically impossible.
The beauty of the cross is youdon't have to forgive yourself.
And quite honestly, our enemywants us to believe there's something
more that we need to do, more than
what Jesus did for us.
(33:42):
So you can choose how you see fit.
And Jesus is not the person ina church that told you something
wrong.
He isn't.
And so I don't need to doanything more.
What it means, grace means itis impossible to forgive myself.
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And then what that also meansis that I have to grapple with the
humility to accept the grace is being
offered me.
That's what forgiveness is.
Henry now was very blunt whenhe said that forgiveness is grace
inaction, in relationships, and that
forgiveness is done amongst people
wholove poorly.
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And so what I want to do, andthat's, I I'm going to put a period
on that.
And then now pivot, because Ithink that that lie still lurks in
the background of so many people,
and Ihave heard, heard it so many times,
and unfortunately, I can't contain
myself.
(34:51):
And whenever somebody says, Iguess I just need to forgive myself,
Iend up blurting out unreservedly
and maybeunempathically when I say, you can't.
You've already decided your fate.
So how in the world are yougoing to release yourself from the
fate that you've already decided?
You have.
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Okay, enough.
Enough.
So what I want you tounderstand is that there are two
different kinds of forgiveness.
There's superficial andthere's genuine superficial.
The way that I think about itis the way to kind of describe it
is it goes like this.
It says, oh, I'm sorry.
(35:34):
That's okay.
And the reality is, is thatsuperficial forgiveness is little
morethan a social convention.
Ultimately, it is designed tominimize the harm to the other person
who has hurt us.
And so for the offender, it'san attempt to minimize the impact,
impact on the offended.
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Oh, I'm sorry.
I'm sorry.
And I have seen so many timespeople say, oh, that's okay.
And it's like, no, it's not okay.
It is not okay.
And just saying you're sorryis for your own guilt.
It isn't for the person thatyou've actually hurt.
And so for the offended, forthe person who's been hurt, it removes
the burden of guilt from the offender
orthe tension they feel.
(36:23):
Somewhere, somehow, we havegotten the notion that we're responsible
for the discomfort somebody feels
because they have hurt us.
We're responsible for it.
So now we're blaming thevictim here, and that's a big, big
part of it.
(36:43):
So superficial.
Forgiveness is oftentimescarried into, oh, I'm sorry.
And the other person says,that's okay.
The thing to keep in mindabout genuine forgiveness is it is
a decision and it is a process.
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Most of the time, we thinkthat if I decide to forgive, then
forgiveness will occur, and it won't.
We have to figure out some wayof doing it differently, of going
through the process of recovery.
Interestingly enough, and I'lljust say this as kind of a sidelight,
there is a lot of parallels between
forgiveness and grief and processing
our grief.
(37:32):
In a lot of ways, the grief ina relationship, in the rupture of
a relationship, is very connected
becausesuddenly the person isn't what I
thought they were, didn't do what
Iwould expect them to do.
And now I have to adjust.
I have to.
I have lost the image of whatI had of the person.
(37:53):
And so it's a decision and a process.
What's the process?
And the first and foremost ofthat process is to recognize how
I've actually been hurt.
How in the world can Iactually seek to find healing for
the injury that has occurred if I
don't pay attention to what has actually
happened, and I don't recognize the
nature of the injury that has occurred,
how it's impacted me, and sometimes
it'syears later, and then I'm in the
future and I can look back at the
impact that the other person has
had on me.
(38:37):
And I may not have done theforgiveness, and now I'm faced with
that, and I've got to start with,
howhave I actually been hurt?
And then the second thing Ihave to do is I have to identify
thefeelings that come with it.
Interesting thing about ourfeelings is they tend to take us
back to the things that we are covering
over, and they often reveal the very
things that we have to find a way
to let go of through the process
of forgiveness.
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I can't let go of something.
I have not identified what itactually is.
And our feelings oftentimespoint to that.
Our thoughts are usually theprocess of defending us against the
things that our feelings are pointing
to.
And then the third thing Ihave to do is find someone mature
enough and trustworthy enough to
be able to talk about and express
thesefeelings that I have, the feelings
ofgrief and betrayal and abandonment
and allthe things and hurt that goes with
it.
(39:44):
I have to find somebody matureenough and trustworthy enough to
share that with.
What that means is they willnot try to fix you.
They will not try to slap aplatitude or a Bible verse on you,
and they will enter in with you and
help you through the process as you
go.
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Now, somebody out there maysay, well, wait a minute.
A scripture verse is great.
It helps people anchorthemselves about forgiveness.
Well, maybe.
But an ill timed truth isexperienced as a white hot dagger.
(40:28):
An ill time truth isexperienced like a weapon.
So I have to figure out thetruth that I offer them may not be
God's truth.
It may be the truth of mypresence to be with them in the midst
of all that they're feeling.
(40:49):
And then the fourth thing is,I got to set boundaries to protect
myself from the harm the person has
done.
Perhaps I'm still around this person.
Then I need to go back, listento the last episode 42 about how
toset boundaries to protect myself
fromthe harm that's going on from the
person.
(41:10):
Now look at this.
The first four steps, if youwill, of this process or characteristics
ofrecognizing the injury, identifying
thefeelings I have, expressing them
assomebody trustworthy, and setting
boundaries.
I have said nothing about thedebt because I can't, forget cancel
a debt.
(41:34):
I have not identified what thedebt is.
So this process that I've justdescribed is necessary before we
ever get to finally canceling the
debt.
And that is.
That is not easy.
(41:55):
Now understand something.
Not everything that weexperience has to go through this
lengthy.
This doesn't have to be alengthy process, but somebody who
says something insensitively, it
could fit into this, or it could
be,you know, they are displaying some.
(42:21):
Some unguarded words, and wegive them the feedback on it and
it's done.
But in a lot of cases, wedon't give people feedback, and then
we harbor the anger and frustration
andoffense over something they've said
and never said anything to them.
And they are completely in thedark, and I am in the.
(42:44):
In the shadows nursing mywounds and demanding restitution.
So canceling the debt is anongoing process.
And only then, after I havestarted through that process of canceling
the debt, do I consider or pray or
even seek reconciliation.
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Now understand something.
Reconciliation is not the sameas forgiveness.
Forgiveness is a one way street.
It is from me to the personwho has offended me.
It is not a two way street.
Reconciliation is a bilateralmeeting of the minds and the hearts
ofthe people that we're talking about
here, and it cannot be done if the
other person doesn't believe they've
done anything wrong.
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And what that means then isthat a lot of times, reconciliation
won't happen.
Now, there's one other thing Iwant to mention.
And that's on the flip side of forgiveness.
And that's the topic ofconfession and repentance.
And confession literally meansto say the same Thing as.
(43:58):
The question is to say thesame thing as what?
And it's to say the same thingas what I have done to the other
person.
That's what confession is tosay the same thing as.
So when I confess, I say whatI've actually done to the other person.
(44:20):
And so confession is thestarting point of the process of
repentance.
Repentance, on the other hand,is actually captured in scripture,
ifyou're curious, because in Hebrew,
there really isn't a word for repentance.
It's called teshuva.
It means to return is theHebrew word in the New Testament
we use.
(44:45):
The Greek is translated into Metanoia.
In other words, a change of mind.
When Jesus told the story ofthe prodigal son, he actually captured
both of these things.
When the young man is sitting,considering having lunch with the
pigs in the pig pen, and it says,
hechanged his mind.
(45:08):
And then he went home.
He experienced metanoia, andthen he went home.
He returned.
He returned.
And so repentance means to notonly return to the place of reconciliation,
theplace of that I can confess, the
place for possible repentance.
(45:34):
I mean, ultimately, repentanceis repentance.
It is not a contract.
If I repent, then I get forgiven.
That's not what this is about.
This is the other one waystreet that meets in the intersection
of reconciliation.
And so repentance, just likeforgiveness, is a superficial kind
where it says, I'm sorry, but.
(45:55):
And the person gets selfrighteous about what they did, and
they end up finding fault in the
other person.
If you hadn't said it the wayyou did, then I wouldn't have stuck
my foot in my mouth, for example.
And they end up superficialrepentance ends up having an attitude
like, well, I'm glad that I got that
over.
And so they're uttering justthe right words, and they end up
getting very defensive in the face
of the consequences they experience
around that.
(46:23):
And so they compare their sinto other people, what they have done,
their behavior to other people, in
order to minimize it.
And sometimes they end upfeeling very confused about what
torepent because they're not paying
attention to it at all.
And so oftentimes, superficialrepentance ends up, they're not specific.
(46:44):
So somebody says, I'm sorry.
And you might look at them andsay, what are you sorry about?
And they'll say, well, I don'tknow, but I think I'm supposed to
do that now.
And so that would besuperficial repentance.
And then finally, genuinerepentance acknowledges the wrong
that has been done, the impact that
it actually has, and the communication
thatthey will seek to repair the thing
that has happened, the wrongdoing.
(47:15):
But they admit theirwrongdoing without any buts, without
any clauses, without any conditional
termsthat say, yeah, but.
And that ultimately is what itlooks like.
Now, if you've ever.
I am a fan of the artist Rembrandt.
(47:36):
I have two of them in my office.
One is the return of the Prodigal.
And Henry Nouwen actuallywrites a very compelling book about
that painting, the return of the
Prodigal.
That's the name of his book.
I highly recommend it.
But what does it look likewhen the prodigal changes his mind
in the pig pen and returns home?
(48:04):
And what we're told in that story?
And that's a remarkable storywhen you really think about it.
It really is a very remarkablestory, because Jesus is telling that
story about, about what forgiveness
looks like.
Peter had just asked him, howoften do I need to repent?
And Peter thought he wasoverdoing it when he said, seven
times, and Jesus said, no, 70 times
seven.
(48:30):
It doesn't mean 490.
It means infinitely.
And so Jesus goes on to tellthe story of lost things.
He talks about the widow thathas a lost coin and the shepherd
thathas a lost sheep.
And then he tells the story ofthe prodigal, and it's the lost son.
(48:53):
And he tells his dad, I wishyou were dead.
Give me my inheritance now.
And he goes off.
He spends his inheritance andwine women in song, and he ends up
being destitute in a pig pen.
A jewish kid having to dealwith pigs.
What a humiliating thing.
(49:14):
And so he decides to go home.
And on his way home, he'srehearsing his speech to his dad,
saying, look, I don't deserve to
be your son.
I'll just be a servant, andI'll just gladly live where the servants
live.
I don't need to be that person.
And as he's approaching, andthink this through, as he's approaching,
hisdad catches sight of him.
(49:40):
How does his dad catch sightof him?
Because he's watching the road.
He's watching the road for hisson to come home.
And when he sees him, he hikesup his robes, throwing to the wind
all of the social conventions, and
runs to him and throws his arms around
him.
(50:03):
The son says, wait wait, wait.
I've got a speech I gotta tell you.
And the father says, no, no,no, nothing like that.
Silences him and says, no, no.
And he puts his.
He says, get the best robe.
And putting.
Put it on my son.
(50:24):
Who owns the best robe in the house?
The father does.
He says, here, put a ring onhis finger to signify that he has
come home.
He has returned to theidentity of my son.
And he put sandals on his feetbecause he was walking barefoot,
and allthe accumulated dirt and grime and
everything of his trip could be covered
with the sandals.
(50:54):
And the father says, kill thefattened calf because we are going
tohave a party, because my son, who
was gone, has now returned.
That is the picture ofrepentance, of forgiveness and of
reconciliation.
(51:14):
And so we have the beautifulpicture of reconciliation where one
has, I would suggest to you the father
has already forgiven him.
That's what makes it possiblefor him to run out to his son.
The son has repented becausehe has returned.
He's gone home, and he haschanged his mind, and he's going
todo life differently now.
(51:41):
That is forgiveness.
That is repentance, and thatis reconciliation.
And so the relationshipswithin the outpost have to be relationships
that are marked by forgiveness and
repentance and reconciliation.
We can't make reconciliationhappen, but we can forgive, and we
can repent.
(52:08):
Repent is not a word you hearvery much of confession sometimes,
butrepentance is not a word that you
hear very much of, really, even in
the christian realm.
We do it in the context of our salvation.
But what about the rest of ourlives and the rest of the impacts
onour relationships and so forth?
(52:30):
And so forgiveness andrepentance and reconciliation are
the earmarks of relationships in
the outpost.
And that's what we seek tofacilitate, to encourage, to model
inour relationships in the outpost.
(52:52):
And that's the ultimate priceto be paid.
Remember, forgiveness is atransfer of cost.
A transfer of cost.
And we can accept the gracethat is offered us when we have blown
it.
And we come to God and say,I've blown it, and I know I have.
(53:15):
This is nothing, what youwould want for me.
And it's taken me away fromyou, and that's what I.
And that's.
That's what I've done, and I'm.
I'm owning it for what it is.
And we don't have to say we're not.
We will.
I won't let that happen ever again.
Don't say that.
Yes, you will.
(53:36):
We will.
We will make mistakes again,we will blow it again.
The issue isn't whether I doit again.
The issue is, am I on the roadto continuing to try to grow and
tochange into the person that God is
actually seeking for me to become?
And that's why he offers methe forgiveness, because he offers
methe freedom to be able to embrace
thegrace he has given me.
(54:04):
And that's it for tonight.
Sgi dash net.org dot thanks somuch for joining me.
That's the digital home forthe SGI community.
If you have questions oranything that you'd like to send
me,you can do it on Instagram by dming
me, or you can do it on the website.
(54:27):
At the very bottom, there's acontact form that you can fill out
and ask your questions in regards
tothis topic or any of the other ones
I've been talking about.
And you can subscribe.
If you're new to the website,you'll be asked to join in the community
and you can do that.
You'll get our newestnewsletter that's going to be coming
out this week, and you'll find out
what's going on and perhaps get some
food for thought for the week.
(54:54):
And that's what is asubscription gets you.
So join on the website, hitit, go to it, sign up.
We're not going to spam youand we're not going to send you a
bunch of extraneous stuff.
And you can do that, obviouslywith the podcast by subscribing to
the podcast as well and keeping up
with what's going on here.
(55:15):
The other feature that's onthe website that I'll just mention
isthe digital devotionals.
And those are all about thekind of, the kind of relationships
I'mtalking about.
And it's called setting new boundaries.
And you can sign up for $5 amonth and you can get one once a
week.
Give you plenty to think aboutin terms of your relationships.
(55:36):
So you can find us on threesocial media outlets, Instagram,
SGIInternational at Facebook, stained
Glass International on Facebook,
andLinkedIn at Drmich.
So thanks so much for joining me.
If you're interested inpartnering with us, we'd be ever
so grateful.
(55:57):
All the gifts, all thedonations are tax deductible.
And that allows us to not onlyfund the activities of SGI, but also
makes our silent retreats reachable
forstudents and other people that would
like to go.
And there's a whole bunch ofother things that you can see on
the website.
(56:17):
So explore it.
Look at the store.
Got a few things there, like awindow sticker, if you're interested,
orthe two books that I've written,
grieving the loss of someone you
love, or the seasons of our grief,
which is the newest book that came
out.
And you can certainly do anyof that there.
You can donate online usingthe donate button that has a dropdown
for it.
(56:43):
Or if you'd rather, you canalways send us a check to SGI, PO
Box 322, Eastlake, Colorado 80614.
So that is it for tonight.
Thanks so much for joining me.
And until next week, love you.
(57:03):
Later, bye.
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