May 28, 2025 • 34 mins
In this inspiring episode of the Covenant Eyes podcast, host Karen Potter interviews Dr. Mark Denison, co-founder of There's Still Hope, about his groundbreaking new book Advanced Recovery.
As a pastor, author, and long-term recovery leader, Dr. Denison shares how men and women can move beyond short-term sobriety to build lasting, Christ-centered freedom from porn and sexual addiction.
🎯 Learn the 6-phase recovery cycle
📊 Discover the “Advanced Scoreboard”
💡 Understand the 5 Deadly Signs of relapse
🔐 Crack “The Man Code” – a Christ-modeled path for lasting connection
🚦 Find out how to avoid the silent assassin of recovery
This episode is for you if you’ve ever struggled with relapse, pride, isolation, or just want to know what comes after early sobriety.
💻 Learn more at: https://theresstillhope.org
📘 Get the book: Advance to Recovery on Amazon
🧠 Join Dr. Denison's daily Recovery Minute devotional: mark@theresstillhope.org
_____________________________________
🔗 Learn How Covenant Eyes Works:
https://cvnteyes.co/4gb6xme
_____________________________________
👇 Drop your thoughts in the comments!
👍 Like | 🔔 Subscribe | 📤 Share
#PornAddictionRecovery
#ChristianRecovery
#CovenantEyes
#TheresStillHope
#MarkDenison
CHAPTERS:
0:00 – Intro: Meet Dr. Mark Denison
0:56 – Why Advanced Recovery Matters
2:00 – The 6-Phase Porn Addiction Cycle
5:13 – Habits of Long-Term Sobriety
8:51 – The Advanced Scoreboard Explained
11:55 – The Man Code: 1, 3, 12, 120, 5000
16:00 – The Power of Connection in Recovery
20:00 – Pride: The Silent Assassin
24:10 – 5 Deadly Warning Signs of Relapse
28:44 – Helping Someone After a Setback
31:33 – How to Learn More or Get Involved
Try Covenant Eyes for FREE today!
Use Promo Code: FreePodcast
© 2024 Covenant Eyes, All Rights Reserved
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome back to TheCovenant Eyes Podcast.
(00:02):
Today's episode we are going tobe interviewing doctor Mark
Denison with There's StillHope ministries.
He is a former church planterand senior pastor
for over 31 years.
He's been a university boardchairman several times,
and he's authoredover 12 different books.
He has a new book outcalled Advanced Recovery.
(00:24):
We're going todive into that book
and so much more today.
Stay tuned for this episode.
You're going to love it.
Doctor Mark, it is so good tohave you back on the podcast.
We're really excited.
I know you've got a new bookthat we're going
to be diving into today,because as you know,
(00:46):
there are somany books out there
to help people with sexand porn addiction, but keeping
that sobriety over the long haulis something that is a
little bit lacking.
And I think your new bookkind of addresses that,
so I'm really excitedto dive into it.
It's called Advanced Recovery.
And it's out now.
You can get it in Amazonand all the places
(01:06):
you buy books.
But let's talka little bit about what
inspired you to write this book.
And we'll dive into a littlebit of the recovery
cycle that you go intoin the book as well.
Yeah. Our turn.
Thank you and appreciatethe opportunity as always.
The thing that havebeen weighing on me
for some time is that as a guythat's been in recovery
(01:27):
for a number of years and workedwith a lot of others
that have been as well,is that it seems like
there's a lot of materialthat's available for people
in terms of howto write the porn habit
or unwanted sexual behaviors,how to find freedom,
especially early on,but not a lot that it's been
addressed to the guyor the woman who has long
(01:48):
term sobriety.
And so I was intrigued to seeif there was any research
that would suggestthat maybe there's a little bit
of difference there in termsof what it took to get sober
and what it took to stay sober.
And what do we dofor the man or woman
who's already got longterm sobriety so they can finish
strong five, ten,20 years from now?
And so that'swhat really inspired me
(02:09):
as I moved further to my ownjourney of recovery,
and I was working withmore and more guys
who were as well,sort of like Paul talking about
for a believer, the milk versusthe meat, the rudiments
of the faith, mature faith.
And what does that look likefor mature disciple?
What does that look likefor someone that has
seasoned recovery and found someinteresting things that I think
(02:32):
are really beneficialto those that that want to dive
into this for the long haul.
In fact, so much so that we dida monthly webinar,
based on the Bibleso that once a month
people can join us as we unpackthe different aspects
of advanced orlong term sobriety.
That is amazing.
Oh my goodness.
I love that you're doing likean ongoing webinar for that too,
(02:55):
because people that are,you know, into their recovery
journey many, many yearsstill need to be connected
with others that are onthat journey.
And so your webinar reallyfosters that community element
that I think isoftentimes lacking.
When you've actually beenon the journey
for quite a while, you kind of,you know, you age
out of some of theintensive programs,
but where do you go from there?
(03:16):
Well, in your book,you talk about a recovery cycle.
Can you explain what that isfor our listeners?
Sure. You bet.
Patrick Carnes usesa little more academic language
in this.
He talks aboutfour different phases
of the cycle.
But for me, trying tojust kind of keep
it really simple, very,very practical.
I see the six thingsthat we just keep,
(03:38):
cycling throughand Advanced Recovery
where we get off what I callthe crazy train.
It always starts in the mindbecause what I think today
is what I'm goingto do tomorrow.
So the six phases of the cycle,I think it, I plan it, I do it,
I hate it, I cover itand then I go do it again.
So I think it fits in my mind.
There's a fantasy,there's a compulsive thought.
(04:00):
There's an image.
The optic nerve, the mind,that attaches
the eye to the brain,takes that snapshot.
I I've got this visualthat's out there, so I take it
that I plan it,I start asking myself,
how am I going to act outbased on what I'm thinking?
And then I do it.
And then and invariably,especially for believer,
(04:20):
I hate it.
No one ever looks back and saysthat look at porn
or that hook upwith another person.
Whatever form of acting outit was, was a great idea.
We always hate it.
And then we cover itbecause we think we're
never going to do it again,and then we repeat it
and we stay on that cycleuntil we break the cycle
by breaking throughwith the principle.
(04:42):
So as we unpack in this bookor other principles
that get us on the right course.
So I take it off planet,I hate it, I cover it.
I'm sorry, I think it, planet,I do it, I hate it, I cover it,
and then I do it again.
Wow.
Okay, that makes a lot of sense.
In your book, you discusshabits of those who have
Advanced Recovery, and that'skind of intriguing
(05:04):
because I don't thinkthat gets talked about a lot.
Can you highlighta few of those habits
that people who have beenin recovery for a while,
have and do?
Yeah.
So what I foundreally interesting
about this was that I tendI think most people
probably do this.
We look at recoverythrough our own lens.
What was my experience?
How was that in for mein terms of the habits
(05:26):
that worked for me?
Well, I try to set that asideand really dive
into extensive research.
And so I looked ata lot of projects,
a lot of research done on this,not just in the sexual area,
but American psychologicalAssociation identifies over
150 addictionsthat were behavioral
over substance.
And so looking across the mapwith a focus on unwanted
(05:49):
sexual behaviors,I found ten habits that were
very consistentamong men and women
who seem to have longterm sobriety.
One of those will notsurprise anybody.
And that is,accountable building.
They maintain accountability,which is why
our ministry promotescovenant so big.
I just had lunch todaywith the guy, so you got to
(06:11):
get on there because you do nothave accountability and a long
term recovery.
What happens with so many guysis they feel like they've gotten
to the placewhere they've not looked
at anything inappropriatefor several years.
They're not acted out in any waythat not looked at things,
not done things.
And so they bring downsome of the guardrails.
(06:33):
Long term sobriety really works.
Advanced Recovery.
What we found in our researchis that guys treat
the guardrailsa little differently,
meaning that in early recoverywe say, how close to
that guardrail can I getwithout going off the cliff?
And Advanced Recovery?
We say, how far can I stay awayfrom that guardrail?
(06:54):
And so that meansI'm going to stay on
Covenant Eyes, even though Imay not need it, but I'd rather
not find out that I did.
And so accountability is huge.
Two more that to meare huge habits that we found.
One is startingeach day with a win.
There's an admiralwho wrote a book, Make Your Bed,
meaning that every dayI need to do one thing.
(07:17):
And so one of the habitswe found was that guys,
before their feethit the ground, they prayed
the serenity prayer.
The third step prayerthat sounds like prayer.
They read a devotionon recovery.
They do.
Somethingdoesn't have to be big.
It's usually not,but something to put
a win on the board each day.
Advanced Recoverynever takes their foot
off the pedal or the wayI like to say it,
(07:38):
we keep our foot on the pedal,but we also have to make sure
that the car's in gearthat's in drive,
and so it's not enoughto do a lot of things.
I've got to make sureit's in gear when that
morning starts.
And then another onewhich is going to sound
a little odd, is to eat well.
In other words, good self-care.
And that's notbecause people that eat
(07:59):
well, by definitionare not going to act out
sexually.
It's because there's a length.
That kind of person establishesgood habits in one area.
That's going to have good habitsin other areas,
because, as you know,porn is not a bad problem.
It's a bad solution.
It is a bad problem.
It's mostly bad solution.
There's other stuff going on.
So practicinghabits of self-care,
such as eating well,lead a healthy
(08:22):
lifestyle, which feedshealthy sobriety.
Wow, that's really interesting.
And those aresome really good habits
that we do see.
Those are common things thatobviously people who have been
on that journey, they do exhibitthose characteristics
in those habits.
So I love thatthat you're kind of
wrapping that up.
And you said there'sa total of ten of them
in the book, correct?
(08:42):
Yes. Okay, great.
Well, and in the bookyou also talk about
an advanced scoreboard.
So talk to me.
What is that and what does thatlook like?
I'm a big sports guy andalways had been
like sports memorabilia.
Been to, you know,all kinds of games.
Not a lot of athletesand baseball is probably
my favorite sport.
(09:03):
Then the interesting thinggrowing up watching baseball
is there's a zillion stats.
You can go to the gamethat got all the
numbers out there.
How many hits do they have?
How many runs, how many errors,how many fly balls,
how many strikeouts?
You see all these statistics,advanced metrics.
And so they call it.
You also see on the scoreboardthe attendance
(09:23):
of the game that day.
Well, it's a guywho was a senior pastor
for 30 years.
I slowly evolved in my thinkingthat says
that the way we measuresuccess in the church
is generallywhat is the attendance
in the stadium?
If I've got a bunch of peopleshowing up to watch me
play ball,then my church is doing well.
(09:44):
Well, who would ever say thatin baseball you don't go to
a baseball game and say,we won the World Series
because we have morefans than you do.
And yet that's how we measuresuccess in church.
And so as opposed tohow many runs are
we putting on the board,what are we doing
in missions and outreachand evangelism and ministry?
So I apply that to recoveryand realize that.
(10:06):
And the scoreboardthat we use in recovery
in most groups,especially 12 step groups, has a
sobriety date.
And that's fine.
I go to 2 12step meetings every week
for my own recovery.
I've been soberfor over ten years now.
I continue to do that.
Why not always do that?
They're so-calledsecular groups, and that's
a fantastic way.
(10:26):
But in every group,we go around the circle and are
asked the question,what is your name?
How did you act out?
What is your sobriety date?
And so I get my sobriety dateof January 29th of 2015.
And people hear that I give youa chip for that.
And they say, good job.
That's great.
And that's part of it.
But Advanced Scoreboard asksquestions like,
(10:48):
am I pursuing God?
That's harder to measure.
Am I helping someone else?
Am I the personmy dog thinks I am?
It's one of the questions I askhow am I treating my wife?
Am I treating my son?
What am I doing to help othersand their recovery?
Where's my daily time with God?
Like am I doing a recovery dayonce a month?
(11:10):
Which is somethingI really advocate for?
Am I taking someone elsealong the journey with me?
Those are tough questionsbecause they're not as easy.
It's a lot easier. It's.
But I haven't acted outsince a certain date.
So did that scoreboard sayshow am I doing?
Not just am Isober in the moment?
Or how long have I technicallybeen sober?
(11:30):
Guys and have AdvancedRecovery are doing well,
and their depthand their breadth
and not just their life.
That's a really goodpoint, you know,
because it's it's easy for usto kind of white
knuckle and count how many dayswe've been free of something or,
you know, changed a habitor broke free from pornography,
but it's notas advanced, like you
said, scoreboard kind of metricsthat actually matter,
(11:53):
going deeper at a deeper level,I love that.
That's great.
So in your book, I believeit's in chapter 11, you focus on
something called The Man Code.
So let's talka little bit about that.
What is itand how does that apply
to Advanced Recovery?
You know, I appreciatethe question.
As I thinkall our listeners know,
(12:13):
the opposite of addictionis connection.
And that's when when guysgo to meetings to find sobriety.
My observation I've been inthousands of them,
is that what draws usis the content.
We're there because we're here.
They're doing the 12 stepsor they're doing a certain
period is our course, orwe have ten groups.
We use our own materialthat we've written.
(12:34):
What is that content?
But what keeps us coming isthe connection.
We've got to havethat connection.
So what does thatconnection look like
for Advanced Recovery?
Well, the greatest exampleI could think of
to try to followwould be Christ.
And so we look at his life,not just his words, but how
he loved his own life.
(12:54):
And we start unpacking that.
We discover five numbersthat we call the man code.
And if we can crack the code,we see what mattered to Jesus
in terms of human connectionas well as divine connection.
So there are five numbers.
The numbers are one,three, 12, 120 and 5000.
(13:15):
Now right away, for mostwho know their Bibles at all,
they'll knowexactly what that means.
But here's what happenswe get out of balance.
And what I'm advocating foris an Advanced Recovery that we
maintain balance.
The number one, Jesus focusedon his father.
We know in Mark chapter one,Jesus went off
to the mountain earlyin the morning to pray.
(13:37):
The disciplesknew where to find him.
Find.
Luke answers thatbecause it says, when he went to
the mountain, he wentas was his custom.
So Jesus focusedon the one he spent
a lot of time with the father.
I've got to spend time with God.
So the 12 steps have aspiritual component.
That vertical relationship,the number one.
The number three isthe inner circle.
(13:59):
Jesus took Peter,James and John places
that he didn'ttake any place else
when he raised his daughterfrom the dead.
Peter, James,and John were there,
Mount Transfiguration,they were there, the Garden
of Gethsemane.
They were there.
No one else.
Just love story.
What that says to meis that I need that inner circle
of accountability.
I need those 2or 3 people the same sex as me,
(14:23):
in my case, two or 3 or 4 menthat can ask the hard questions.
I spend more time with them.
And it's it'skind of like Paul's
relationship.
He had Peterwho was ahead of him.
Barnabas was with him, Timothycoming behind him.
We need those three men,the inner circle.
The number 12 isthe small group.
I need to be in a small group,either a church or preferably
(14:44):
also a recovery group.
The 120 acts, chapterone represents the church.
I am shocked byhow many people claim
to have a walk with Christwho are not in tune
with a local church,and then the 5000 is
the communityI need to be plugged
into my community.
By that I meanthe community at large, not just
(15:05):
the body of Christ.
So in Jesus we see thathe's doing loving, loving.
Loving in and out of hisentire ministry.
All five of these, the one,the three of the 12,
that 105,000.
In my recovery,I want to emulate that
and be connectedin all five ways.
And I've noticed in my researchwhat we did for this project
(15:25):
that God should have.
And women who have long termsobriety are connected
in all five.
So there's got to be balance.
So we call it the man code.
That is cool.
And I think that isso applicable.
So would you say likeif you see a guy
who's going through a recovery,program or is in recovery
and they're not surrounded bya group of, you know, the three
(15:49):
and they're notspending time with God,
would you be concerned thatmaybe that's that
the recovery journeyis not going to stick
because they're not followingthat principle?
I mean, is that kind of ared flag to you?
If you see something like that?
For me, it's not a concern.
It's a done deal.
I see them as one isin a pre relapse stage.
Got an email in the middleof the night from someone
(16:10):
just like that.
That that's the one partmissing for him.
Was that innercircle of connection
and accountability, you know,which again, is one of the
great benefitsof being on common eyes is that
guys destroyer of pornography,they've already got their allies
that are out there, you know,advocating for them
and holding them accountable.
So yeah, if they don't have thator any of the other
(16:31):
numbers, then, and they canbe doing great in other areas,
but they've got to maintainthat balance.
Absolutely.
You know, it's interestingbecause I was looking
through the Barnastudy that came out last year,
the new one on pornography.
And in that studyit said 84% of those
who identified as strugglingwith pornography
on some frequency said they hadno one in their life
(16:54):
that was holding themaccountable or that knew of
their struggle.
And so what we needand what people believe
that they have in their livesis somewhat different.
So what would you sayto someone out there
who feels likethey don't have anyone
that they can talk toand bring into that inner circle
that that group of threethat they need around them?
(17:15):
Because the statisticskind of show us that people feel
very isolatedand that they don't
have those people.
What would you encourage,those people to actually do
in their life differently?
Be relentless until they findthose people, because some of
the two ditches, my viewthat we fall into one is we grab
onto those three toand the others,
we give up and say,yeah, we grab on
(17:37):
to the wrong ones toosoon and say, hey, can be
my buddy, can be my friend,could be my
accountability personwhen it's not a good match.
Or we just give up because wedon't find them right away.
When we connecta lot more quickly than men do.
We know in the church,for example,
that when someone joinsa church, on average
they will leave that churchor become disconnected
(17:58):
within six monthsunless one thing happens
and that is that they establishsix genuine,
authentic relationships.
Same thing, true in recovery.
And we also know thatwhen people join any group,
doesn't matter what it is,it could be a recovery group.
It can be a Sunday school class,it could be the Civic Club.
If they've not establishedthose relationships,
(18:18):
then they're going to fall away.
And if they miss three meetings,they're probably
going to fall away.
So be relentless.
There are so many,materials and groups
and resources out therethat there's not a good excuse
to not find those three.
Absolutely.
I think that's really important.
I mean, perseverance isdefinitely something
that we're instructedto have. And to do.
(18:40):
So I think it is importantthat we, you know, don't
just give up and say,well, there's nobody
we got to keep lookingfor that person.
And the church is a great placeto be able to connect
with people like that.
Or you have groups,in your organization
and there's still hope.
There's ways to get connectedwith other people
that can help us on our journey.
So other listenersout there don't give up.
(19:01):
If you feel like you don'thave anyone in your life.
There are so many organizationsand ministries that can help
you get connected.
It's funny you say thatbecause when we started groups
a few years ago, I my goal wasI wrote a book called
Life Recovery Plan.
It's 52 weekly topics,and I thought maybe
we could find some guysthat will stay with this
for all 52 weeks.
(19:22):
80% of them stayed with mefor 5 or 6 years
now, however longI've been doing it. Wow.
And they don't bring their bookto the meetings, which greatly
disappoints me.
I'm thinking this is so good.
I'm so brilliant.
They're good on whatthey don't care.
I don't care what the topic is.
It's all about connection.
It's about accountability.
It's about relationships.
That's beautiful.
I love that.
(19:43):
So in your book,you talk about something
called a silent assassin.
It sounds very intriguing.
So talk to us a little bitabout what that is and what your
book really discussesat length about.
You know, in a word, it's pride.
When I get to the placein my recovery where I say,
I've got this, I don't needaccountability anymore.
(20:05):
I don't needto be going to meetings anymore.
Pride seeps inand I'm in trouble.
One of the things I've observedas I've networked
with other peoplethat really concerns
me is, is guys and womenwho are in leadership
roles for ministries like oursthat are trying to help others
in recovery, who feel likethey graduate to the point
(20:29):
where they're helpingbut they're not being helped.
And invariably relapse occursand then everything
crumbles to the ground.
And so the thing I'm alwayspreaching to people is that
I can't give awaywhat I don't have, and I need to
emulate this, even if I didn'tneed it myself.
I mean, I've been goingat the same 12 step for a very
Thursday night for ten years.
(20:50):
I could not begin to tell youthe last time
I learned somethingI didn't know, I don't know.
It's been a long timesince we've read the same stuff.
All the time.
It's good stuff, but I'm therebecause I go in every meeting
with the simple prayer, Lord,let me hear one thing today
I can use tomorrow.
And what I might hearis that Johnny across
the room is struggling.
I need to go talk to himfor a moment.
(21:12):
And so the silent assassinis the pride that says,
I don't really needthis anymore.
I've arrived to whereI can help others.
I don't need help much at all,and I may get to that point.
I doubt it, but I neverwant to find out.
I want to alwaysstay as far from that.
(21:32):
That guardrails I canso I'm always reading every day
recovery material,every day prayer in this area.
My life, my recoveryBible is sitting right
there on my desk right now.
I never go a day without itbecause I know I've got to.
The resources come on outfor the best on the planet.
The guy would be crazyto ever think
he doesn't continueto need that.
(21:55):
Real, real quick story I waswhen I was pastoring,
there was a there's a ladyin my church that one Sunday
after the service, she said,would you like to meet my son?
He is in town, and,he like to meet you
and he of the church.
And I said, sure.
So I went over there.
I won't say who it was.
Me as a professional wrestler,and it was a name
(22:17):
anybody would know.
And he's still a huge,huge, huge, huge name.
I don't know how I missed himin the service because,
you know, the guy was biggerthan the sanctuary.
And then he wanted towanted to visit.
So I go to this lady's house.
Her son was in townand the guy was actually
a retired wrestler then.
But as I'm looking at, thisguy is 65 years old at the time,
(22:37):
and he's still around now.
And I've never seen a guythat looked like this.
It was unbelievable.
I said, how do you do this?
And he started telling meabout how he works out
every single day at 65.
So he didn'tget to a place where he said,
I've won a world championshipand I've been
a professional worldchampion bodyguard.
You know, thisnow I'm just going
(22:58):
to rest on this.
No, he continuedto push forward with it
and that's what we have to do.
Pride says I don't need to,but recovery says I never stop.
That is some wisdomright there I love that,
that is so good.
And pride is really one of thosesneaky things.
But you know I think all of us,regardless of what
we're strugglingwith, that can creep in
(23:19):
and really lead us downa path of destruction.
Because, you know, when we thinkwe don't need
the people around us any longeror that we've graduated
to a different level,I mean, we see it all the time
in ministries and in leadersin general in our country,
where they just get to a leveland then they think that
they're above reproach.
And that's so dangerousfor us as Christians.
(23:40):
We don't.
That's where the enemy likesto sneak in and shoot those
fiery darts.
Well, in the final chapterof your book, you talk about,
five deadly signsto watch out for.
So, you know, that soundsvery clickbaity, but I think
it's important that we coverthose five deadly things,
because these can bereally instrumental to, people
(24:02):
who are in recoverykind of fall to,
you know, falling and gettingthemselves into a situation
they don't want to be in.
So let's talk through thosefive things. Sure. Yeah.
Thank you.
Thanks, Karen.
You know, again,this is research.
This isn't just my own opinionof what I think might ought
to be going on or is going onor my own observation,
although in the book,part of what helped inform
(24:23):
this was that, I interviewedover 40 people
that have extensiveperiods of sobriety
over 200 years total.
And so in additionto over 200 footnotes
from looking atso many other projects
have been written onon sobriety and long
term recovery.
The number one signthat we found of of trouble
(24:45):
warning sign is missed meetings.
Guys that are in a groupand they just quit showing up.
They're not there as much.
That's a huge warning sign.
It doesn't mean they relapse.
Of course not.
But it's a warning signthey're falling away
or something going on.
The second sign was kind oftalked about
the Silent Assassin.
(25:06):
And that's graduation.
I've got this chill.
I've achieved this milestone.
I've got a busy life,I've got kids,
I've got grandkids,I've got a lot going on.
I haven't relapsedin a good while.
And so I've just kind of reachedthis plateau.
Graduation mentalityis a terrible sign.
Another one is secrets.
As we often say,addiction cripples.
(25:29):
What secrets kill.
Secrets are.
We're really strong.
Our secrets are.
Secrets are terriblebecause secrets are nothing
but lies perpetuated.
But within the heart ofevery addict is this emotional,
relational desirefor two things.
I want to be fully known,and I want to be
completely loved.
But I think thatif you really know me,
(25:51):
can really love me.
And so I harbor secretsbecause I want to be loved
and accepted.
But the person you're lovingisn't really me.
That's the Facebook image of me,because you don't
really know me.
But we play these mental games,mental gymnastics, and we hold
these secrets.
Which is why I'ma huge proponent of full
clinical disclosures.
And we do them with our ministrybecause the wife of the
(26:13):
of the addicts or the husbandneeds to know this stuff, needs
to know who they're married to,can have secrets.
When people harbor secrets.
Big warning signtwo other signs.
One is defensiveness.
When you ask someonethe hard question, and I do this
all the time because ofCovenant Eyes, as most people
probably know,if you're an ally,
(26:35):
you'll get a report.
And when it's a green thingand a green dot,
it's like, fantastic.
This guy's doing great.
Don't have to worry about it.
I get a red dotand I get 31 reports
a day. Oh my goodness.
I got to pour through all these.
I spent an hour every morninggoing through my eyes.
Report.
And so I get a red dot.
(26:56):
Doesn't happen a lot,but I know what that means.
That's pretty clear.
It's the yellow dotsare driving me crazy
because those are the onesyou're not sure.
And so you ask the person,I just need to ask, why were you
at this jewelry storethat I saw your jewelry store?
Why are you watching this show?
I'm not saying you didanything wrong.
I'm just asking the question.
(27:17):
And when?
When the personresponds by saying,
oh, it's buyingsomething for my wife.
I'm glad you asked methat question.
Or I was watching the showor whatever.
That's great.
But when someone says,why are you asking me that?
Don't you know who I am?
Don't you recognizeand defensiveness?
The concern is notwhat do they do
or what do they not do?
(27:38):
It's the attitude, which is howwives always know.
When her husband relapsed.
I think it'sbecause the attitude
is defensiveness.
And in my wifetells one all the time,
don't get hung up on whatyou can prove that he did
or didn't do.
Trust your instincts.
So when someone's defense,the last warning sign
is a critical attitude.
When someone becomes criticalof everyone else in other
(28:01):
recovery ministriesand what other people
are doing it, and their churchand their pastor and their
recovery later, the attitudeof criticism is a huge red flag
that there's somethinggoing on inside.
There may not be a relapse,but that might be.
And so we've gotto check into that
pretty quick becausethose are five deadly signs.
(28:24):
Those are great to keep in mind.
And I think, you know,for a lot of
our listeners out therethat maybe
are an ally or spousesthat are out there,
those are thingsto keep in mind.
Certainly, as warning signs.
I think that's good to know.
So, you know, you workwith so many different people
and you've been helping so many,whether ministry leaders
or just, you know, congregantsin a church.
(28:44):
You've been everywherehelping all sorts of folks.
People do falland they do stumble.
So, you know, how do you helpsomeone that's
dealing with a setbackor a relapse?
You know, maybe had a long stintof recovery and now is dealing
with a setback like that.
How can you help themor what advice
do you have for them?
The first thingI tell them, not well,
(29:06):
I appreciatethat question, is to
pick up where you were.
Don't judge yourentire life and recovery
by one bad dayor by what happened,
even though, relapse is aprocess, it's not that there's
always things leading upto that event,
but don't feel likeyou've got to go back
and start over.
(29:26):
Like all the work you've donedidn't matter.
It didn't matterthe things you learned,
the principles you've learned.
If you're running a marathonand you fall on the 14th mile,
you don't get up and say,oh, shucks, I better go
back to the starting line.
You dust yourself offand you pick up right there.
I'm sure there'ssomeone out there
that from the momentthe Holy Spirit convicted them
(29:49):
of their need for recovery,they never had a setback.
I just haven't met them.
And so I always encourageGod's living grace.
We have an enemy.
He's going to beat you up.
He doesn't needyour help on that.
So pick up where where youwhere you fell off.
The second thing,if they're responding
to some sort of relapse, is toadjust your program
(30:10):
because we know thatyour current strategy
is perfectly suitedfor the results you're getting.
And so I have a relapseprevention plan
for my own recovery,and also have
a relapse response planso that I already know that if
I have a relapse,there are certain
things I'm going to doand that works as a deterrent,
(30:31):
but also givesme accountability.
I've got 175guys in my ten groups.
They all know itbecause I tell them
it's all the time.
If I have a relapse,part of my relapse,
accountability for that is thatI will tell each group,
this is what happened.
I'll step awayfrom the ministry,
at least for a while.
My wife will know.
(30:52):
My therapist will know.
I'll have to.
I'll go do another disclosure.
I'll do a polygraph.
I've got that in place.
I'll go to more meetings.
That's a main thing.
Change the program.
Because if I have a relapse,it means something
wasn't working.
And the last thingI've kind of said is already
is don'tdefine yourself by that.
No one ever beat themselves upinto a better place.
(31:14):
I've got to always move forward.
Not not move backwards.
So when I workwith guys like this
and every week there's a dozenguys I'll talk to
have had a relapse.
You've got it.
Start where you fell off.
Work on the program.
Step it up, but don't beatyourself up over this.
You've got to move forward.
That is really good adviceand very encouraging as well.
(31:36):
I love how you're just pointingpeople to start where they fell
instead of goingall the way back.
And your analogy of a runnerthat makes perfect sense.
Well, doctor Mark,as we bring today's
episode to a close,I want to point people to where
they can gettheir hands on the book
and also how they can learn moreabout your ministry.
Because you have a tonof great resources
as well as groups, you offercounseling for ministry leaders.
(32:02):
You have, I believe youhave events.
And, I think I sawa pancake breakfast or something
happening on your eventscalendar.
So you've got a lot going on.
So where can peoplego to learn more about you
and your ministryand all of your, books?
TheresStillHope.org .
We offer a 90 dayrecovery program for guys
that are strugglingwith sobriety, where I work one
on one with themor my associate does.
(32:24):
We also have ten groups.
We have two groupsjust for pastors.
We have a group just for doctorsbecause we work with a lot of
medical professionals.
Yeah.
And most of the groups are doneby Zoom.
We do have anin-person group here
in Bradenton, Florida.
My wife and I are startinga new couples group this week.
My wife workswith wounded spouses.
She does a group for womenas well as one on one coaching.
(32:46):
Do a lot of speaking inchurches, programs and churches
and conferences and so encourageanyone that would
love to talk to me.
I'd love to to speak to you,to help you any way we can.
Our websiteis TheresStillHope.org
and my email isMark@theresstillhope.org.
So one last thingI would mention.
(33:06):
We write a daily devotioncalled Recovery Minute.
If anyone would liketo receive that.
It's very short.
Devotion goes out every morning.
Reach out to me at Markat TheresStillHope.org
and I would loveto put you on that list.
That's amazing.
And we will put all the linksin the show
notes for our listenersthat may be at the gym
or driving and working onsome of those positive habits.
(33:27):
So we'll make surethose are all there
for everybody to check out.
Well, doctor Mark Dennison,this has been a joy
to have you back on the podcast.
Thank you for this new book.
I think it's going to bereally inspirational
for a lot of people who kind ofare on the road to recovery
and have been there for a while,but need
that encouragement, needsome of that wisdom
that you provide in the book.
(33:47):
So we'll be sureto point our listeners that way
to check out that resource.
And we do hopeto have you back again soon.
So thanksso much for joining us.
I look forward to that.
Karen.
Thank you as always.
So appreciate the workthat you do.
At Covenant Eyes.
Oh, absolutely.
Thank you.
And to all of our listeners,thank you for tuning in
to this episode of The CovenantEyes Podcast.
We hope you have a great day.
(34:07):
God bless. Take care.
We'll see you next time.
Bye bye.
Welcome back to TheCovenant Eyes Podcast.
(00:02):
Today's episode we are going tobe interviewing doctor Mark
Denison with There's StillHope ministries.
He is a former church planterand senior pastor
for over 31 years.
He's been a university boardchairman several times,
and he's authoredover 12 different books.
He has a new book outcalled Advanced Recovery.
(00:24):
We're going todive into that book
and so much more today.
Stay tuned for this episode.
You're going to love it.
Doctor Mark, it is so good tohave you back on the podcast.
We're really excited.
I know you've got a new bookthat we're going
to be diving into today,because as you know,
(00:46):
there are somany books out there
to help people with sexand porn addiction, but keeping
that sobriety over the long haulis something that is a
little bit lacking.
And I think your new bookkind of addresses that,
so I'm really excitedto dive into it.
It's called Advanced Recovery.
And it's out now.
You can get it in Amazonand all the places
(01:06):
you buy books.
But let's talka little bit about what
inspired you to write this book.
And we'll dive into a littlebit of the recovery
cycle that you go intoin the book as well.
Yeah. Our turn.
Thank you and appreciatethe opportunity as always.
The thing that havebeen weighing on me
for some time is that as a guythat's been in recovery
(01:27):
for a number of years and workedwith a lot of others
that have been as well,is that it seems like
there's a lot of materialthat's available for people
in terms of howto write the porn habit
or unwanted sexual behaviors,how to find freedom,
especially early on,but not a lot that it's been
addressed to the guyor the woman who has long
(01:48):
term sobriety.
And so I was intrigued to seeif there was any research
that would suggestthat maybe there's a little bit
of difference there in termsof what it took to get sober
and what it took to stay sober.
And what do we dofor the man or woman
who's already got longterm sobriety so they can finish
strong five, ten,20 years from now?
And so that'swhat really inspired me
(02:09):
as I moved further to my ownjourney of recovery,
and I was working withmore and more guys
who were as well,sort of like Paul talking about
for a believer, the milk versusthe meat, the rudiments
of the faith, mature faith.
And what does that look likefor mature disciple?
What does that look likefor someone that has
seasoned recovery and found someinteresting things that I think
(02:32):
are really beneficialto those that that want to dive
into this for the long haul.
In fact, so much so that we dida monthly webinar,
based on the Bibleso that once a month
people can join us as we unpackthe different aspects
of advanced orlong term sobriety.
That is amazing.
Oh my goodness.
I love that you're doing likean ongoing webinar for that too,
(02:55):
because people that are,you know, into their recovery
journey many, many yearsstill need to be connected
with others that are onthat journey.
And so your webinar reallyfosters that community element
that I think isoftentimes lacking.
When you've actually beenon the journey
for quite a while, you kind of,you know, you age
out of some of theintensive programs,
but where do you go from there?
(03:16):
Well, in your book,you talk about a recovery cycle.
Can you explain what that isfor our listeners?
Sure. You bet.
Patrick Carnes usesa little more academic language
in this.
He talks aboutfour different phases
of the cycle.
But for me, trying tojust kind of keep
it really simple, very,very practical.
I see the six thingsthat we just keep,
(03:38):
cycling throughand Advanced Recovery
where we get off what I callthe crazy train.
It always starts in the mindbecause what I think today
is what I'm goingto do tomorrow.
So the six phases of the cycle,I think it, I plan it, I do it,
I hate it, I cover itand then I go do it again.
So I think it fits in my mind.
There's a fantasy,there's a compulsive thought.
(04:00):
There's an image.
The optic nerve, the mind,that attaches
the eye to the brain,takes that snapshot.
I I've got this visualthat's out there, so I take it
that I plan it,I start asking myself,
how am I going to act outbased on what I'm thinking?
And then I do it.
And then and invariably,especially for believer,
(04:20):
I hate it.
No one ever looks back and saysthat look at porn
or that hook upwith another person.
Whatever form of acting outit was, was a great idea.
We always hate it.
And then we cover itbecause we think we're
never going to do it again,and then we repeat it
and we stay on that cycleuntil we break the cycle
by breaking throughwith the principle.
(04:42):
So as we unpack in this bookor other principles
that get us on the right course.
So I take it off planet,I hate it, I cover it.
I'm sorry, I think it, planet,I do it, I hate it, I cover it,
and then I do it again.
Wow.
Okay, that makes a lot of sense.
In your book, you discusshabits of those who have
Advanced Recovery, and that'skind of intriguing
(05:04):
because I don't thinkthat gets talked about a lot.
Can you highlighta few of those habits
that people who have beenin recovery for a while,
have and do?
Yeah.
So what I foundreally interesting
about this was that I tendI think most people
probably do this.
We look at recoverythrough our own lens.
What was my experience?
How was that in for mein terms of the habits
(05:26):
that worked for me?
Well, I try to set that asideand really dive
into extensive research.
And so I looked ata lot of projects,
a lot of research done on this,not just in the sexual area,
but American psychologicalAssociation identifies over
150 addictionsthat were behavioral
over substance.
And so looking across the mapwith a focus on unwanted
(05:49):
sexual behaviors,I found ten habits that were
very consistentamong men and women
who seem to have longterm sobriety.
One of those will notsurprise anybody.
And that is,accountable building.
They maintain accountability,which is why
our ministry promotescovenant so big.
I just had lunch todaywith the guy, so you got to
(06:11):
get on there because you do nothave accountability and a long
term recovery.
What happens with so many guysis they feel like they've gotten
to the placewhere they've not looked
at anything inappropriatefor several years.
They're not acted out in any waythat not looked at things,
not done things.
And so they bring downsome of the guardrails.
(06:33):
Long term sobriety really works.
Advanced Recovery.
What we found in our researchis that guys treat
the guardrailsa little differently,
meaning that in early recoverywe say, how close to
that guardrail can I getwithout going off the cliff?
And Advanced Recovery?
We say, how far can I stay awayfrom that guardrail?
(06:54):
And so that meansI'm going to stay on
Covenant Eyes, even though Imay not need it, but I'd rather
not find out that I did.
And so accountability is huge.
Two more that to meare huge habits that we found.
One is startingeach day with a win.
There's an admiralwho wrote a book, Make Your Bed,
meaning that every dayI need to do one thing.
(07:17):
And so one of the habitswe found was that guys,
before their feethit the ground, they prayed
the serenity prayer.
The third step prayerthat sounds like prayer.
They read a devotionon recovery.
They do.
Somethingdoesn't have to be big.
It's usually not,but something to put
a win on the board each day.
Advanced Recoverynever takes their foot
off the pedal or the wayI like to say it,
(07:38):
we keep our foot on the pedal,but we also have to make sure
that the car's in gearthat's in drive,
and so it's not enoughto do a lot of things.
I've got to make sureit's in gear when that
morning starts.
And then another onewhich is going to sound
a little odd, is to eat well.
In other words, good self-care.
And that's notbecause people that eat
(07:59):
well, by definitionare not going to act out
sexually.
It's because there's a length.
That kind of person establishesgood habits in one area.
That's going to have good habitsin other areas,
because, as you know,porn is not a bad problem.
It's a bad solution.
It is a bad problem.
It's mostly bad solution.
There's other stuff going on.
So practicinghabits of self-care,
such as eating well,lead a healthy
(08:22):
lifestyle, which feedshealthy sobriety.
Wow, that's really interesting.
And those aresome really good habits
that we do see.
Those are common things thatobviously people who have been
on that journey, they do exhibitthose characteristics
in those habits.
So I love thatthat you're kind of
wrapping that up.
And you said there'sa total of ten of them
in the book, correct?
(08:42):
Yes. Okay, great.
Well, and in the bookyou also talk about
an advanced scoreboard.
So talk to me.
What is that and what does thatlook like?
I'm a big sports guy andalways had been
like sports memorabilia.
Been to, you know,all kinds of games.
Not a lot of athletesand baseball is probably
my favorite sport.
(09:03):
Then the interesting thinggrowing up watching baseball
is there's a zillion stats.
You can go to the gamethat got all the
numbers out there.
How many hits do they have?
How many runs, how many errors,how many fly balls,
how many strikeouts?
You see all these statistics,advanced metrics.
And so they call it.
You also see on the scoreboardthe attendance
(09:23):
of the game that day.
Well, it's a guywho was a senior pastor
for 30 years.
I slowly evolved in my thinkingthat says
that the way we measuresuccess in the church
is generallywhat is the attendance
in the stadium?
If I've got a bunch of peopleshowing up to watch me
play ball,then my church is doing well.
(09:44):
Well, who would ever say thatin baseball you don't go to
a baseball game and say,we won the World Series
because we have morefans than you do.
And yet that's how we measuresuccess in church.
And so as opposed tohow many runs are
we putting on the board,what are we doing
in missions and outreachand evangelism and ministry?
So I apply that to recoveryand realize that.
(10:06):
And the scoreboardthat we use in recovery
in most groups,especially 12 step groups, has a
sobriety date.
And that's fine.
I go to 2 12step meetings every week
for my own recovery.
I've been soberfor over ten years now.
I continue to do that.
Why not always do that?
They're so-calledsecular groups, and that's
a fantastic way.
(10:26):
But in every group,we go around the circle and are
asked the question,what is your name?
How did you act out?
What is your sobriety date?
And so I get my sobriety dateof January 29th of 2015.
And people hear that I give youa chip for that.
And they say, good job.
That's great.
And that's part of it.
But Advanced Scoreboard asksquestions like,
(10:48):
am I pursuing God?
That's harder to measure.
Am I helping someone else?
Am I the personmy dog thinks I am?
It's one of the questions I askhow am I treating my wife?
Am I treating my son?
What am I doing to help othersand their recovery?
Where's my daily time with God?
Like am I doing a recovery dayonce a month?
(11:10):
Which is somethingI really advocate for?
Am I taking someone elsealong the journey with me?
Those are tough questionsbecause they're not as easy.
It's a lot easier. It's.
But I haven't acted outsince a certain date.
So did that scoreboard sayshow am I doing?
Not just am Isober in the moment?
Or how long have I technicallybeen sober?
(11:30):
Guys and have AdvancedRecovery are doing well,
and their depthand their breadth
and not just their life.
That's a really goodpoint, you know,
because it's it's easy for usto kind of white
knuckle and count how many dayswe've been free of something or,
you know, changed a habitor broke free from pornography,
but it's notas advanced, like you
said, scoreboard kind of metricsthat actually matter,
(11:53):
going deeper at a deeper level,I love that.
That's great.
So in your book, I believeit's in chapter 11, you focus on
something called The Man Code.
So let's talka little bit about that.
What is itand how does that apply
to Advanced Recovery?
You know, I appreciatethe question.
As I thinkall our listeners know,
(12:13):
the opposite of addictionis connection.
And that's when when guysgo to meetings to find sobriety.
My observation I've been inthousands of them,
is that what draws usis the content.
We're there because we're here.
They're doing the 12 stepsor they're doing a certain
period is our course, orwe have ten groups.
We use our own materialthat we've written.
(12:34):
What is that content?
But what keeps us coming isthe connection.
We've got to havethat connection.
So what does thatconnection look like
for Advanced Recovery?
Well, the greatest exampleI could think of
to try to followwould be Christ.
And so we look at his life,not just his words, but how
he loved his own life.
(12:54):
And we start unpacking that.
We discover five numbersthat we call the man code.
And if we can crack the code,we see what mattered to Jesus
in terms of human connectionas well as divine connection.
So there are five numbers.
The numbers are one,three, 12, 120 and 5000.
(13:15):
Now right away, for mostwho know their Bibles at all,
they'll knowexactly what that means.
But here's what happenswe get out of balance.
And what I'm advocating foris an Advanced Recovery that we
maintain balance.
The number one, Jesus focusedon his father.
We know in Mark chapter one,Jesus went off
to the mountain earlyin the morning to pray.
(13:37):
The disciplesknew where to find him.
Find.
Luke answers thatbecause it says, when he went to
the mountain, he wentas was his custom.
So Jesus focusedon the one he spent
a lot of time with the father.
I've got to spend time with God.
So the 12 steps have aspiritual component.
That vertical relationship,the number one.
The number three isthe inner circle.
(13:59):
Jesus took Peter,James and John places
that he didn'ttake any place else
when he raised his daughterfrom the dead.
Peter, James,and John were there,
Mount Transfiguration,they were there, the Garden
of Gethsemane.
They were there.
No one else.
Just love story.
What that says to meis that I need that inner circle
of accountability.
I need those 2or 3 people the same sex as me,
(14:23):
in my case, two or 3 or 4 menthat can ask the hard questions.
I spend more time with them.
And it's it'skind of like Paul's
relationship.
He had Peterwho was ahead of him.
Barnabas was with him, Timothycoming behind him.
We need those three men,the inner circle.
The number 12 isthe small group.
I need to be in a small group,either a church or preferably
(14:44):
also a recovery group.
The 120 acts, chapterone represents the church.
I am shocked byhow many people claim
to have a walk with Christwho are not in tune
with a local church,and then the 5000 is
the communityI need to be plugged
into my community.
By that I meanthe community at large, not just
(15:05):
the body of Christ.
So in Jesus we see thathe's doing loving, loving.
Loving in and out of hisentire ministry.
All five of these, the one,the three of the 12,
that 105,000.
In my recovery,I want to emulate that
and be connectedin all five ways.
And I've noticed in my researchwhat we did for this project
(15:25):
that God should have.
And women who have long termsobriety are connected
in all five.
So there's got to be balance.
So we call it the man code.
That is cool.
And I think that isso applicable.
So would you say likeif you see a guy
who's going through a recovery,program or is in recovery
and they're not surrounded bya group of, you know, the three
(15:49):
and they're notspending time with God,
would you be concerned thatmaybe that's that
the recovery journeyis not going to stick
because they're not followingthat principle?
I mean, is that kind of ared flag to you?
If you see something like that?
For me, it's not a concern.
It's a done deal.
I see them as one isin a pre relapse stage.
Got an email in the middleof the night from someone
(16:10):
just like that.
That that's the one partmissing for him.
Was that innercircle of connection
and accountability, you know,which again, is one of the
great benefitsof being on common eyes is that
guys destroyer of pornography,they've already got their allies
that are out there, you know,advocating for them
and holding them accountable.
So yeah, if they don't have thator any of the other
(16:31):
numbers, then, and they canbe doing great in other areas,
but they've got to maintainthat balance.
Absolutely.
You know, it's interestingbecause I was looking
through the Barnastudy that came out last year,
the new one on pornography.
And in that studyit said 84% of those
who identified as strugglingwith pornography
on some frequency said they hadno one in their life
(16:54):
that was holding themaccountable or that knew of
their struggle.
And so what we needand what people believe
that they have in their livesis somewhat different.
So what would you sayto someone out there
who feels likethey don't have anyone
that they can talk toand bring into that inner circle
that that group of threethat they need around them?
(17:15):
Because the statisticskind of show us that people feel
very isolatedand that they don't
have those people.
What would you encourage,those people to actually do
in their life differently?
Be relentless until they findthose people, because some of
the two ditches, my viewthat we fall into one is we grab
onto those three toand the others,
we give up and say,yeah, we grab on
(17:37):
to the wrong ones toosoon and say, hey, can be
my buddy, can be my friend,could be my
accountability personwhen it's not a good match.
Or we just give up because wedon't find them right away.
When we connecta lot more quickly than men do.
We know in the church,for example,
that when someone joinsa church, on average
they will leave that churchor become disconnected
(17:58):
within six monthsunless one thing happens
and that is that they establishsix genuine,
authentic relationships.
Same thing, true in recovery.
And we also know thatwhen people join any group,
doesn't matter what it is,it could be a recovery group.
It can be a Sunday school class,it could be the Civic Club.
If they've not establishedthose relationships,
(18:18):
then they're going to fall away.
And if they miss three meetings,they're probably
going to fall away.
So be relentless.
There are so many,materials and groups
and resources out therethat there's not a good excuse
to not find those three.
Absolutely.
I think that's really important.
I mean, perseverance isdefinitely something
that we're instructedto have. And to do.
(18:40):
So I think it is importantthat we, you know, don't
just give up and say,well, there's nobody
we got to keep lookingfor that person.
And the church is a great placeto be able to connect
with people like that.
Or you have groups,in your organization
and there's still hope.
There's ways to get connectedwith other people
that can help us on our journey.
So other listenersout there don't give up.
(19:01):
If you feel like you don'thave anyone in your life.
There are so many organizationsand ministries that can help
you get connected.
It's funny you say thatbecause when we started groups
a few years ago, I my goal wasI wrote a book called
Life Recovery Plan.
It's 52 weekly topics,and I thought maybe
we could find some guysthat will stay with this
for all 52 weeks.
(19:22):
80% of them stayed with mefor 5 or 6 years
now, however longI've been doing it. Wow.
And they don't bring their bookto the meetings, which greatly
disappoints me.
I'm thinking this is so good.
I'm so brilliant.
They're good on whatthey don't care.
I don't care what the topic is.
It's all about connection.
It's about accountability.
It's about relationships.
That's beautiful.
I love that.
(19:43):
So in your book,you talk about something
called a silent assassin.
It sounds very intriguing.
So talk to us a little bitabout what that is and what your
book really discussesat length about.
You know, in a word, it's pride.
When I get to the placein my recovery where I say,
I've got this, I don't needaccountability anymore.
(20:05):
I don't needto be going to meetings anymore.
Pride seeps inand I'm in trouble.
One of the things I've observedas I've networked
with other peoplethat really concerns
me is, is guys and womenwho are in leadership
roles for ministries like oursthat are trying to help others
in recovery, who feel likethey graduate to the point
(20:29):
where they're helpingbut they're not being helped.
And invariably relapse occursand then everything
crumbles to the ground.
And so the thing I'm alwayspreaching to people is that
I can't give awaywhat I don't have, and I need to
emulate this, even if I didn'tneed it myself.
I mean, I've been goingat the same 12 step for a very
Thursday night for ten years.
(20:50):
I could not begin to tell youthe last time
I learned somethingI didn't know, I don't know.
It's been a long timesince we've read the same stuff.
All the time.
It's good stuff, but I'm therebecause I go in every meeting
with the simple prayer, Lord,let me hear one thing today
I can use tomorrow.
And what I might hearis that Johnny across
the room is struggling.
I need to go talk to himfor a moment.
(21:12):
And so the silent assassinis the pride that says,
I don't really needthis anymore.
I've arrived to whereI can help others.
I don't need help much at all,and I may get to that point.
I doubt it, but I neverwant to find out.
I want to alwaysstay as far from that.
(21:32):
That guardrails I canso I'm always reading every day
recovery material,every day prayer in this area.
My life, my recoveryBible is sitting right
there on my desk right now.
I never go a day without itbecause I know I've got to.
The resources come on outfor the best on the planet.
The guy would be crazyto ever think
he doesn't continueto need that.
(21:55):
Real, real quick story I waswhen I was pastoring,
there was a there's a ladyin my church that one Sunday
after the service, she said,would you like to meet my son?
He is in town, and,he like to meet you
and he of the church.
And I said, sure.
So I went over there.
I won't say who it was.
Me as a professional wrestler,and it was a name
(22:17):
anybody would know.
And he's still a huge,huge, huge, huge name.
I don't know how I missed himin the service because,
you know, the guy was biggerthan the sanctuary.
And then he wanted towanted to visit.
So I go to this lady's house.
Her son was in townand the guy was actually
a retired wrestler then.
But as I'm looking at, thisguy is 65 years old at the time,
(22:37):
and he's still around now.
And I've never seen a guythat looked like this.
It was unbelievable.
I said, how do you do this?
And he started telling meabout how he works out
every single day at 65.
So he didn'tget to a place where he said,
I've won a world championshipand I've been
a professional worldchampion bodyguard.
You know, thisnow I'm just going
(22:58):
to rest on this.
No, he continuedto push forward with it
and that's what we have to do.
Pride says I don't need to,but recovery says I never stop.
That is some wisdomright there I love that,
that is so good.
And pride is really one of thosesneaky things.
But you know I think all of us,regardless of what
we're strugglingwith, that can creep in
(23:19):
and really lead us downa path of destruction.
Because, you know, when we thinkwe don't need
the people around us any longeror that we've graduated
to a different level,I mean, we see it all the time
in ministries and in leadersin general in our country,
where they just get to a leveland then they think that
they're above reproach.
And that's so dangerousfor us as Christians.
(23:40):
We don't.
That's where the enemy likesto sneak in and shoot those
fiery darts.
Well, in the final chapterof your book, you talk about,
five deadly signsto watch out for.
So, you know, that soundsvery clickbaity, but I think
it's important that we coverthose five deadly things,
because these can bereally instrumental to, people
(24:02):
who are in recoverykind of fall to,
you know, falling and gettingthemselves into a situation
they don't want to be in.
So let's talk through thosefive things. Sure. Yeah.
Thank you.
Thanks, Karen.
You know, again,this is research.
This isn't just my own opinionof what I think might ought
to be going on or is going onor my own observation,
although in the book,part of what helped inform
(24:23):
this was that, I interviewedover 40 people
that have extensiveperiods of sobriety
over 200 years total.
And so in additionto over 200 footnotes
from looking atso many other projects
have been written onon sobriety and long
term recovery.
The number one signthat we found of of trouble
(24:45):
warning sign is missed meetings.
Guys that are in a groupand they just quit showing up.
They're not there as much.
That's a huge warning sign.
It doesn't mean they relapse.
Of course not.
But it's a warning signthey're falling away
or something going on.
The second sign was kind oftalked about
the Silent Assassin.
(25:06):
And that's graduation.
I've got this chill.
I've achieved this milestone.
I've got a busy life,I've got kids,
I've got grandkids,I've got a lot going on.
I haven't relapsedin a good while.
And so I've just kind of reachedthis plateau.
Graduation mentalityis a terrible sign.
Another one is secrets.
As we often say,addiction cripples.
(25:29):
What secrets kill.
Secrets are.
We're really strong.
Our secrets are.
Secrets are terriblebecause secrets are nothing
but lies perpetuated.
But within the heart ofevery addict is this emotional,
relational desirefor two things.
I want to be fully known,and I want to be
completely loved.
But I think thatif you really know me,
(25:51):
can really love me.
And so I harbor secretsbecause I want to be loved
and accepted.
But the person you're lovingisn't really me.
That's the Facebook image of me,because you don't
really know me.
But we play these mental games,mental gymnastics, and we hold
these secrets.
Which is why I'ma huge proponent of full
clinical disclosures.
And we do them with our ministrybecause the wife of the
(26:13):
of the addicts or the husbandneeds to know this stuff, needs
to know who they're married to,can have secrets.
When people harbor secrets.
Big warning signtwo other signs.
One is defensiveness.
When you ask someonethe hard question, and I do this
all the time because ofCovenant Eyes, as most people
probably know,if you're an ally,
(26:35):
you'll get a report.
And when it's a green thingand a green dot,
it's like, fantastic.
This guy's doing great.
Don't have to worry about it.
I get a red dotand I get 31 reports
a day. Oh my goodness.
I got to pour through all these.
I spent an hour every morninggoing through my eyes.
Report.
And so I get a red dot.
(26:56):
Doesn't happen a lot,but I know what that means.
That's pretty clear.
It's the yellow dotsare driving me crazy
because those are the onesyou're not sure.
And so you ask the person,I just need to ask, why were you
at this jewelry storethat I saw your jewelry store?
Why are you watching this show?
I'm not saying you didanything wrong.
I'm just asking the question.
(27:17):
And when?
When the personresponds by saying,
oh, it's buyingsomething for my wife.
I'm glad you asked methat question.
Or I was watching the showor whatever.
That's great.
But when someone says,why are you asking me that?
Don't you know who I am?
Don't you recognizeand defensiveness?
The concern is notwhat do they do
or what do they not do?
(27:38):
It's the attitude, which is howwives always know.
When her husband relapsed.
I think it'sbecause the attitude
is defensiveness.
And in my wifetells one all the time,
don't get hung up on whatyou can prove that he did
or didn't do.
Trust your instincts.
So when someone's defense,the last warning sign
is a critical attitude.
When someone becomes criticalof everyone else in other
(28:01):
recovery ministriesand what other people
are doing it, and their churchand their pastor and their
recovery later, the attitudeof criticism is a huge red flag
that there's somethinggoing on inside.
There may not be a relapse,but that might be.
And so we've gotto check into that
pretty quick becausethose are five deadly signs.
(28:24):
Those are great to keep in mind.
And I think, you know,for a lot of
our listeners out therethat maybe
are an ally or spousesthat are out there,
those are thingsto keep in mind.
Certainly, as warning signs.
I think that's good to know.
So, you know, you workwith so many different people
and you've been helping so many,whether ministry leaders
or just, you know, congregantsin a church.
(28:44):
You've been everywherehelping all sorts of folks.
People do falland they do stumble.
So, you know, how do you helpsomeone that's
dealing with a setbackor a relapse?
You know, maybe had a long stintof recovery and now is dealing
with a setback like that.
How can you help themor what advice
do you have for them?
The first thingI tell them, not well,
(29:06):
I appreciatethat question, is to
pick up where you were.
Don't judge yourentire life and recovery
by one bad dayor by what happened,
even though, relapse is aprocess, it's not that there's
always things leading upto that event,
but don't feel likeyou've got to go back
and start over.
(29:26):
Like all the work you've donedidn't matter.
It didn't matterthe things you learned,
the principles you've learned.
If you're running a marathonand you fall on the 14th mile,
you don't get up and say,oh, shucks, I better go
back to the starting line.
You dust yourself offand you pick up right there.
I'm sure there'ssomeone out there
that from the momentthe Holy Spirit convicted them
(29:49):
of their need for recovery,they never had a setback.
I just haven't met them.
And so I always encourageGod's living grace.
We have an enemy.
He's going to beat you up.
He doesn't needyour help on that.
So pick up where where youwhere you fell off.
The second thing,if they're responding
to some sort of relapse, is toadjust your program
(30:10):
because we know thatyour current strategy
is perfectly suitedfor the results you're getting.
And so I have a relapseprevention plan
for my own recovery,and also have
a relapse response planso that I already know that if
I have a relapse,there are certain
things I'm going to doand that works as a deterrent,
(30:31):
but also givesme accountability.
I've got 175guys in my ten groups.
They all know itbecause I tell them
it's all the time.
If I have a relapse,part of my relapse,
accountability for that is thatI will tell each group,
this is what happened.
I'll step awayfrom the ministry,
at least for a while.
My wife will know.
(30:52):
My therapist will know.
I'll have to.
I'll go do another disclosure.
I'll do a polygraph.
I've got that in place.
I'll go to more meetings.
That's a main thing.
Change the program.
Because if I have a relapse,it means something
wasn't working.
And the last thingI've kind of said is already
is don'tdefine yourself by that.
No one ever beat themselves upinto a better place.
(31:14):
I've got to always move forward.
Not not move backwards.
So when I workwith guys like this
and every week there's a dozenguys I'll talk to
have had a relapse.
You've got it.
Start where you fell off.
Work on the program.
Step it up, but don't beatyourself up over this.
You've got to move forward.
That is really good adviceand very encouraging as well.
(31:36):
I love how you're just pointingpeople to start where they fell
instead of goingall the way back.
And your analogy of a runnerthat makes perfect sense.
Well, doctor Mark,as we bring today's
episode to a close,I want to point people to where
they can gettheir hands on the book
and also how they can learn moreabout your ministry.
Because you have a tonof great resources
as well as groups, you offercounseling for ministry leaders.
(32:02):
You have, I believe youhave events.
And, I think I sawa pancake breakfast or something
happening on your eventscalendar.
So you've got a lot going on.
So where can peoplego to learn more about you
and your ministryand all of your, books?
TheresStillHope.org .
We offer a 90 dayrecovery program for guys
that are strugglingwith sobriety, where I work one
on one with themor my associate does.
(32:24):
We also have ten groups.
We have two groupsjust for pastors.
We have a group just for doctorsbecause we work with a lot of
medical professionals.
Yeah.
And most of the groups are doneby Zoom.
We do have anin-person group here
in Bradenton, Florida.
My wife and I are startinga new couples group this week.
My wife workswith wounded spouses.
She does a group for womenas well as one on one coaching.
(32:46):
Do a lot of speaking inchurches, programs and churches
and conferences and so encourageanyone that would
love to talk to me.
I'd love to to speak to you,to help you any way we can.
Our websiteis TheresStillHope.org
and my email isMark@theresstillhope.org.
So one last thingI would mention.
(33:06):
We write a daily devotioncalled Recovery Minute.
If anyone would liketo receive that.
It's very short.
Devotion goes out every morning.
Reach out to me at Markat TheresStillHope.org
and I would loveto put you on that list.
That's amazing.
And we will put all the linksin the show
notes for our listenersthat may be at the gym
or driving and working onsome of those positive habits.
(33:27):
So we'll make surethose are all there
for everybody to check out.
Well, doctor Mark Dennison,this has been a joy
to have you back on the podcast.
Thank you for this new book.
I think it's going to bereally inspirational
for a lot of people who kind ofare on the road to recovery
and have been there for a while,but need
that encouragement, needsome of that wisdom
that you provide in the book.
(33:47):
So we'll be sureto point our listeners that way
to check out that resource.
And we do hopeto have you back again soon.
So thanksso much for joining us.
I look forward to that.
Karen.
Thank you as always.
So appreciate the workthat you do.
At Covenant Eyes.
Oh, absolutely.
Thank you.
And to all of our listeners,thank you for tuning in
to this episode of The CovenantEyes Podcast.
We hope you have a great day.
(34:07):
God bless. Take care.
We'll see you next time.
Bye bye.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.