March 26, 2025 • 33 mins
Learn More About Arise for Women: https://cvnteyes.co/3ZvW65U
In this powerful episode of The Covenant Eyes Podcast, host Karen Potter is joined by Heidi Cooper, Covenant Eyes' recovery specialist, and Ashley Jameson from Pure Desire Ministries. Together, they dive deep into the struggles women face in dealing with sexual brokenness, including addiction, shame, and the devastating impact of pornography. They explore the difficult conversations around healing from sexual trauma, the challenges of discussing these topics in the church, and the vital role of community and support groups in recovery.
Ashley shares insights from her own experience, discussing the growing issue of pornography use among Christian women and how resources like Pure Desire's groups are helping to provide healing and recovery. They also explore the importance of addressing these issues openly in our churches and families, encouraging women to break free from the shame and find freedom in their identity as new creations in Christ.
Topics covered include:
• Sexual addiction recovery and healing
• The stigma and shame surrounding women's struggles with pornography
• Pure Desire's resources for individuals and families
• Supporting children in a "pornified" culture
• How to lead and protect our communities and families from sexual brokenness
If you or someone you know is struggling with sexual brokenness, betrayal, or addiction, this episode offers valuable resources, support, and encouragement. Listen to real-life stories and gain tools for walking out your healing journey.
Resources mentioned in the episode:
Pure Desire Ministries: https://puredesire.org/
Covenant Eyes: https://cvnteyes.co/3ZvW65U
CHAPTERS:
0:00 - Introduction to the Episode
3:30 - Ashley Jameson’s Background and Role at Pure Desire
7:00 - The Church's Struggle to Address Sexual Addiction
10:15 - The Impact of Pornography on Women
14:00 - The Role of Women in Supporting Each Other
18:30 - Sexual Brokenness: A Personal and Collective Issue
22:00 - Navigating Trauma and Healing Through Groups
26:30 - Parenting and Technology: Protecting Children in a "Pornified" Culture
31:00 - Pure Desire’s Resources for Healing
34:00 - How to Get Involved and Find Help
36:30 - The Power of Community in Addiction Recovery
39:00 - Closing Thoughts and Encouragement
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
Everybody, welcome back toThe Covenant Eyes Podcast.
It's so good to bewith you all today.
I have got an amazing hostjoining us for the first time
on The Covenant Eyes Podcast.
I have Heidi Cooper,our very own Covenant Eyes
recovery specialist,who is a reverend, pastoral sex
addiction professional.
(00:27):
She has an MA in pastoralcounseling specializing
in addiction recovery,and she is
part of the Covenant Eyesfamily.
We wanted to bring heron the show to,
kind of be our expertin the wings here.
So, Heidi,thanks for joining us today.
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited.
Yeah.
Would you like to introduce,another amazing woman
(00:48):
that we have joining us todayfor the episode? Sure.
This is Ashley Jamesonfrom Pure Desire, who oversees
all of the women'sside of Pierce ministries.
And I've known Ashley for,gosh, I don't know, at least
about ten years.
And, having led groups myselfwith Pure Desire a while ago.
And so, yeah, Ashley,we're just really excited
(01:10):
to have you here.
It's good to seeyour face again.
And, we're excited for.
Yeah, whatyou have to share with us
this today.
I am excited to be here, too.
I love just jumping on hereand, you know,
not having a big agenda,just getting to connect again
with, our sisterswho are doing the same work
and banding together.
So happy to be here, Ashley.
(01:31):
For thosewho are not familiar with,
some of the thingsthat you're doing
at Pure Desire,which most people should be,
I obviously following the workthat you're doing,
which is amazing stuff.
Can you share a little bitabout what you do specifically
with Pure Desire?
And I believe you've rolled outsome new things
that peer desire specificallyfor the women out there.
Yeah.
(01:51):
We have like Heidi said,I oversee the women's groups and
and so my role has beenpartnering with the church
or with peoplewho want to start groups.
We also help the individualswho come to us.
My story was being a wifewho needed a group
and there was none around.
And so I just started it.
And so I have a passionto make sure
(02:12):
that women are not out therejust floundering for help.
And we're doing such a good jobof providing information
through podcasts and online.
But what I appreciate aboutpeer Desire is we package things
so it's easy for people to comeand just start
plugging in or use the material.
Our newest offerings, recentlywould be Authentically You.
(02:33):
It's a 20 week workbookfor single women.
And so it's managinglove, sex and relationships
for for single women.
And, we have our unraveledfor that.
It's a little heftier.
It's 36 weeks, I think.
Don't quote me.
And the stories,might be geared toward
people who are married.
And so we,we just created something
(02:53):
a little smaller, shorter.
It would easily fitinto a college curriculum,
a school, a school year if ifstudents wanted to follow that
and then, we're coming upon our one year anniversary.
So close.
Heather and I,our lady at Pure Desire
that our brain teaching.
We co-host a podcast
n (03:14):
Real Talk About Sex and Love.
And they're just short15, 20 minute, bite sized,
bite sized episodes.
And we answer three questionsthat come in from listeners.
So all of our questions,all of our content is,
material and questions thatpeople send us.
Yeah, I've actually seen,the podcast, it's
it's great, a great resource.
(03:35):
You guys get really rawand vulnerable and transparent.
And that's what I love about it.
Yeah, I'm really thankful for itbecause we do get women
that say, I've never askedthis question out loud,
or they'll send us an email and,and give us back story
and, and say, but don't readthat on the air.
Just this is my question.
And and I've had the chanceto interact
(03:57):
with a few, like, I can'tI need a little more information
before I answer this question,and I'll ask the lady
a question and say, well,have you talked
to your husband about that?
Have you asked himwhy he doesn't want to
take Viagra or whatever it is?
And then she goes like she goes,that opened up
so much conversation.
I don't even thinkI need help anymore.
And so justgetting to interact with
women is really cool.
And this isn't specificallyfor women, but a lot of
(04:19):
women are mothers.
And we have our new,parenting course,
parent training course.
And then we also have,which is free,
our youth leader library.
And so that has sermon outlinesor message outlines
and 3 to 5 minute videosthat the leader
or the youth leaderor possibly the parent,
I think parents should use itto can go watch that 3
(04:40):
to 5 minute video,and then they're equipped
to talk with theirtheir kids or students.
Those are amazingresources for women.
And I wish I could say there'sso many resources
for women out there.
There's not.
So let's talka little bit about that.
Why is it so hard to find goodChristian based resources
(05:01):
to help usanswer those tough questions
that you know, you're gettingon your podcast, or just
that we're dealing withfrom our own sexual brokenness
or our own past stories.
You know, why is it so hard?
And why is the churchnot a place where we're
talking about thismore frequently?
Well, you know ourthe latest Barna report that we,
(05:21):
we partnered with Barnacreated for
you know you guys know Heidi wasat our launch
representing Covenant Eyes.
It shows that stillafter all these years
only 10% of churcheseven have a program
of some kind.
And so and then they're usuallyfor men on top of that.
And, and so the shamelevel of women specifically
who are strugglingwith sexual compulsive
(05:42):
sexual behavioror pornography is so high.
So their shame,and then our leaders,
more of them than not,are either currently struggling
or have had a pastor's strugglesand they haven't dealt
with their shamebecause getting sober
is not the same as breakingfree of the shame
and using your story.
And so we've got leaderswho are struggling
(06:02):
and afraid to talk about it.
A lot of leaders and pastorsin the church are men.
And and so ifthe majority of our
leaders are men,we need to make sure
that we are putting womenaround the church
and said at least sayingthis is your person to go to
if you're struggling, that we'rewe're verbalizing
that from the pulpit,even if we don't
have women up there.
And then the research alsoalso shows
(06:25):
that at least 40% of womenare regularly viewing porn.
And it'sgetting really convoluted
because women arelooking at porn.
And then they're saying to me,I think I'm
same sex attracted nowbecause this porn is arousing.
And I'm like,it's designed to be arousing.
That's not, you know, like it'sjust getting so messy.
And I think the waythat we have to combat
(06:46):
it is people like usjust continuing
to put the information out therebefore people need it.
So then when they need it,they know where to come.
Right.
You had mentioned,you know, women struggling to
can you speak a little bitto the stigma that is,
been on women of thatwomen like, aren't sexual people
(07:09):
and that only men, are sexual,you know, very sexual beings.
Can you just speak a littleabout that to what you've seen
with all of the peopleyou work with?
And, just a little more detailof like that, how specifically
like women struggle also.
Yeah.
Well,I love data for that reason.
(07:29):
I'm not a data person.
I do not like numbers.
Measurablesis a trigger word for me,
but it's so valuablewhen we get data
because we're seeingthat Christian women, 40%
are regularly viewing porn.
And when wewhen we dive into why there are
so many differentthings, porn now finds us.
You guys know that.
(07:49):
That's why we haveKevin eyes on our phone,
because we don't haveto go searching for it anymore.
It just targets us and thethe porn industry targeting men.
They're they're like, oh,we have this whole pocket
of peoplethat we haven't gone after.
So let's be really craftyin our marketing
and what we do to go after womenthe same way they did with,
(08:10):
with alcohol and, and cigarets.
It's like,let's get the women, let's
make this appealing to women.
And so the number is risingand it is a fast
growing demographic.
And so women are viewing itbecause it's
falling in their lapand they're curious
and it's arousing,but because nobody
is talking about itwith them ahead of time,
they don't know what to dowith those feelings
when they stumble across it.
(08:30):
And so then it can becomea curious thing
where they're like, Iwant to go back to that.
The other part of it is Ihave some betrayed spouses.
I might have been guilty of thiswho look it up
because they want to knowwhat their competition is like.
What is my husband looking at?
That is not I'mnot good enough for.
And then they getsucked into it, even though
(08:50):
that's not wherethey started from.
And, and then I have womencome into our unravel groups.
I specificallyremember this one.
But this this happens so oftenthey're coming in and their
their struggle is more affairsand romance novels and movies
and they're, they're saying, oh,I don't really
have any struggle sexually.
I just had an affair.
(09:11):
And then as they finally getinto the material,
they can see the threadsof needing fulfillment through,
through love.
And and in that search for love,they're willing
to do these sexual things,whether it's watching porn
or acting out sexuallyin order to feel loved.
And sothere's all kinds of things.
But honestly, women stumbleacross it the same way men do,
(09:33):
and then theybecome aroused by it
and seek after itthe same way men do.
And these other things.
Yeah, that's good information.
And I think you bring upan interesting
thought in my mindas you were speaking.
You know, I know women aredefinitely struggling
with pornographyat much higher rates,
even inside the church.
But let's talk a little bit,because I'm hearing
(09:53):
this more and morewhen I'm out at events
and conferencesof the OnlyFans situation,
where we have young girlsthat are being lured
into making pornographyand OnlyFans,
which ends up giving us,you know, so much
trauma later in life.
I mean, we'restruggling through that.
That's the sexual brokennessthat comes from
using our bodies in that way.
(10:14):
And participating in that.
How is that impacting?
And are you guys seeingpeople come into your groups
that are also being luredinto this type of, industry
with false expectationsand then feeling that
brokenness on the other side?
Absolutely.
I have seen this,more often than I want to.
(10:34):
And it's it's, you know,I feel like most
young people, they're like,I want to be a famous YouTuber.
I want to be a famous singer.
I want to be an actress.
We all want to be famousbecause.
Because media makesthat look like you have arrived.
If you're if you're famousand you have all of that.
And sokids are really vulnerable.
Teenagers and young peopleare really vulnerable
(10:55):
to believing thatthe route they want to take.
And so when they're offeredsomething like,
hey, this is easy money,it will give you exposure,
it will give you opportunity.
And they take thatand then it just gets deeper
and deeper the other side of it.
That I've heard fromsome of my moms.
And the thing is, is likewe have this perception of what
(11:15):
those women look like,and they are the women
in our church.
They are the womengo leading our MOPS groups.
And and I kid you not,we just don't have
and we have no idea whowho is struggling with this.
And we can't assume,but they're coming in
and saying, well,I really needed the income.
And this was easy.
I could put my kids to bedand shut the door and get online
(11:36):
and make hundredsof thousands of dollars,
and then it's hard to stoponce you're in it.
So being promised somethingand then having it not turn out
to be what they want.
Going after vulnerable kids.
This is why.
And I will tell your listeners,you guys did not hire me or
pay me to say this,but this is why
things like havingeyes is so important,
(11:57):
because you get thoselittle alerts that that tell you
where your kids are goingand online and,
and it's not just kids,it's it's obviously adults too.
I, I don't know whereI would have been at 23
when I was a single mom,but this kind of stuff
was not the way it is now,back then.
So it's really sad.
(12:19):
But but there is a way outand it's so much better
and so much more life giving.
But it's the women are in thereand doing that,
and they don't know thatthere is another way then.
Then they don't even knowwhere to begin.
So they need peopleto speak up for them.
Absolutely.
And I think, you know,we're probably going
to see a generation,the next generation
is really going to be dealingwith a whole new set of issues.
(12:43):
But ultimately,at the end of the day, it's
all at the root of justsexual brokenness.
I mean, whether it comesin the form of pornography
or affairsor there's a host of ways
that we can become broken.
So talk to usa little bit about that.
You know, we use that termquite a bit, but what does it
actually mean for someoneto have sexual brokenness
and what what isencompassed in that?
(13:06):
So, I it's funny because Ihave my own story around this,
and I was broken as all get out.
You know, it's it's likeI see it two different ways.
You've got predators.
Who is the porn industry,who are sex traffickers,
who are men who want to takeadvantage of women.
(13:27):
And they they can spotthat vulnerability
and smell it from a mile away.
And that's why secure,securely attached people attract
other securely attachedpeople and vice versa.
If you're not, if you're intoif you have an insecure
attachment,it's really easy to for me,
let's sayI'm anxious, ambivalent
when I'm in my weakest placesto then be desperate
(13:50):
and want to have my needs metin a desperate way.
That hurts me. And so, when Iwhen I see women who
are coming into this,coming into this exposure,
that that's reallyat the root of it
is that they're they're notthey're not secure
in what they deserveor in their identity.
(14:13):
And so they're vulnerableto stepping into these areas
that that end upcausing them more harm.
Brokenness does not have to saystay broken.
I mean, if you guys seeour betrayal and beyond,
you'll see the kintsugi isthat was called
the art with the gold.
And I am such an advocate ofI was really careful
when we were writingauthentically you,
Heather and I.
(14:33):
To not call the young girlslike to not make them feel
like they had to stay broken,because I was so broken
and God made me strongerthan I was before.
But that was ayucky narrative message
that I had to reframe because ofwhat was told to me growing up.
(14:54):
I heardI believe, those messages
about myself,and so I had to rewrite that
in that I'm a masterpiece.
Masterpiece isn't broken.
I am a masterpiece.
And I was broken.
But God restored meand he made all things new.
And he made me strongerand a new creation.
And he gave me backwith the locust, all and all the
things of my past. And so,yes, we are all broken and
(15:17):
all in need of a Savior.
And then and then we get to livein that newness
and we get to walk it out.
And I think that'swhat makes people
that do our work so attractive.
I love beingwith other people who
who can say, here are the areasI've been broken, here
are the areas I've been dropped.
Here are the areasI've made mistakes.
This is what God did for me.
(15:37):
This is what the women around medid with me and helped me.
And here's where I'm at now.
And there's no shame.
I can, you know, use that storyto help others.
And so brokenness can becomeso beautiful when we don't stay
stuck there.
And we understandwhat God can do
and has done for us.
I think that's so important,Karen, that you bring that up.
(16:00):
I think the term, likeyou said, sexual brokenness.
Like like you said,actually were all broken.
But I remember,being like a young Bible
college studentand me and my husband
were getting readyto get married,
and the counselor actually,you know, they do those
little historiesto see, you know,
what you've had.
And I had sexual abusein my history.
(16:21):
She actually told my husband,you do know
you're getting damaged goods.
And she said it like,right in front of me.
And this was like 25 years ago,you know, where there
still was not a lot.
There was sex was not talkedabout in the church.
And, so I think it'sso important that,
you know, especially men,it's been talked
(16:42):
about for a long time,and it still needs to be.
But for women, especially,there's such a connotation
that eventhey've been sexually abused,
which a lot of times causes.
Yeah, the sexual brokennessthat leads them to porn
and to sexual addiction,which is what we're seeing
in our Covenant EyesArise program.
As I'm moderating the comments,I, I'm just blown away
(17:05):
at how many of these womenwho are struggling with porn,
have been sexually abused.
Yeah.
I mean, it'sjust like one of every three
that I'm seeing,and it's just very
sad that there's been like,you're damaged or broken.
Can you speak a little bitto that, to our viewers of women
who may be struggling?
(17:27):
I know you've you've,connected about that.
There's no shame.
Can you just hita little more on that?
That if they're walkingthrough things like that trauma
that have impacted,their secretary acting out?
Yeah.
Just share a little bitof in your groups
how you see that,start to unravel and kind of
be healed with womenwho have experienced that.
(17:49):
Yeah.
And I think it is such adisgusting scheme of the devil
to go after our children.
I've had childrenwho have gone through things
and I'm like,get your dirty little hooks
out of my kids, you know, and itand that's how I feel
even about us, like little Heidiand little Ashley,
that it's just so messed up and,and it's saying in, you know,
(18:11):
my story, Heidi,I was raped as a 15 year
old, and I felt damaged.
I felt like, I know now noChristian husband
will ever want me.
And so I disqualified myself.
I didn't have the therapist.
You said it to me like you,but the the church messages,
even though they didn't mean to.
That's what I heard in church,is that I'm damaged.
(18:32):
Because when you saybeing a virgin is the only way.
And I want my sonto marry a virgin,
and you need to saveyour purity, I. Okay?
I'm like, I'm dirty, I'm impure,I am broken,
I'm damaged goods andand just like you said, Heidi,
it ended up making me feel like,well, I'm already damaged
and I'm never goingto get a Christian husband.
(18:54):
And.
And because I was always seekinglove, I'm like,
this is a way thatI can feel loved.
I can take control.
And I started acting,sexually after that,
even though it was such aterrible experience for me.
And that's where I think wewe need to do better
in being proactive to saywhen you have
a sexual experience,that's traumatizing.
(19:15):
And if it's at a young age,it's always trauma
that you can have a mixedfeeling of pleasure,
fear, curiosity, arousal.
And that is normal.
And so that we knowwhat we're experiencing
and we know thatwe can feel that
because like yousaid, it's a huge issue
that impacts so many people.
And so I actually didn't workthrough the damage that caused
(19:39):
until I went through groupsfor my husband's addiction
and hishis history with prostitutes
and the betrayal I felt.
Then as I went throughthat I was going way
against the addict partof the material apply to me.
I'm the betrayed spouse.
And so I had to go through thebetrayal stuff first
and then circle back aroundand start going through things
that were more specific to mebecause I recognized
(20:02):
that I was livingin that brokenness.
I was staying there.
And that's what I mean iswe all experience
some kind of brokennessin a fallen, fallen world.
But the key,I think, is to not stay there
and do not have thatbe your identity.
And going through groups,doing all these resources,
absorbing the materialis what helped me realize
(20:22):
that's not my identity.
Those are lies that I picked upalong the way.
You can identifyone with your counselor.
I can identify a few with churchspecific things
that were done or said to methat made me believe
those things about myself.
That's awesome.
Thank you for sharing that.
And your story is somewhatsimilar to mine.
I had a similar experience,but I was 14.
(20:43):
And really just instead oftaking that experience
and getting the helpI needed at that point,
I jumped off, you know, a cliffand just decided
to go full throttlein the opposite direction
of the Lordinstead of seeking him
for healing.
And it can be so damagingto young people.
And I think nowadaysour young people
are experiencingdifferent types of trauma
(21:03):
because of technology, you know,sexting and the bullying
that might happen after that.
You know, onetext could change your life
forever, right?
Or, you know, they'rethey're getting engaged with,
you know,only or different activities.
And those things stay with them.
We didn't have technologyin our day.
Thank the Lord for that.
But certainly I just want totalk a little bit because I know
(21:24):
you guys came out with a newparenting resource.
And for the momsthat might be listening
to this episodewho are worried about their
young daughters and how tonavigate technology
and the pornified cultureand all of that,
can you talk a little bitabout maybe some things that
maybe you wishthat you would have had,
in your childhoodthat maybe would have helped
(21:44):
you navigate, the situationthat you were in, or even
just thinking of your parentingnow with your children,
the things that maybeyou've done
that have worked well, or thingsthat you have for advice.
Yeah.
I mean, the, the,the biggest things
I can think of our conversation,you know, a lack of conversation
tells the kids something.
(22:06):
And if if our kidsand friends experience
something orwe see a family member,
we hear about something,the way we talk about that
in front of our kids,whether we're a church leader,
talking about itin front of other people,
or a parent talking about infront of kids, we hear that
and then we hear, okay, it'snot ever safe for me
to go forwardand talk about that.
(22:26):
And so making sure that you'rehaving a conversation
about anythinghaving to do with sex, porn
or struggles in a waythat is full of grace
and understanding,but also honest about
where it can lead.
And so I have those questionswith my mom
or those conversationswith my daughter.
And I don't thinkthat you can do it
(22:47):
unless you've workedthrough your own stuff,
because if we don't workthrough our own stuff,
then we always dance aroundconversations that come up,
and we're never fully freeto be vulnerable
with our answers and transparentwith our answers.
Because, oh,we can't get too close
to that one.
That one makes mefeel uncomfortable.
This one's bringing up a triggerI haven't dealt with.
And so it's really importantthat as parents,
we work through our own storyso we can tell
(23:09):
a coherent narrative.
And then with my sons, my,they're 21 now.
But when we started our recoveryand healing process,
they were only ten.
And so I felt sohopeless, like...
Oh no,I screwed them up so badly!
Because we were both addicts.
I was going through betrayal.
We we definitely were.
The kind of parents were like,here's the checklist of things
(23:32):
you need to do to be raisedas a Christian kid,
it was more rulesthan relationship.
And so we juststarted turning that,
turning that aroundeven when they were ten
and just continuing to go backand even apologize
for things and say,hey, I was going through this
when I was raising you,or I remember that one time
where I kind of exploded.
(23:53):
This waswhat was really happening,
and it wasn't about you.
And so just being transparentwith your kids and teaching them
to trust their gut because ifeven if they come up to you
and say, hey, mom, what's wrong?
And you're injust a terrible mood from work
or something with your husband,and you say,
oh, nothing's wrong.
That's like akind of gaslighting your child,
you know, likewe want them to be in tuned
(24:16):
and we want themto be emotionally intelligent
and be able to sensewhat's going on
and trust their gut.
And so just working towardbeing 100% authentic
with your kids so you can say,you know what?
You're really perceptive.
There is something wrongwith me.
I'm not having the greatest day.
Thanks for asking.
Would be a better responsethan making them feel like their
(24:37):
their gut is off. And so, yeah.
Where for your own story,another piece of advice
I give isjust think about the things
that happen to youor your friends
or you heard aboutat their ages.
So at nine I said, hey,when I was around nine,
we had kidsthat weren't supervised
at sleepovers, and some of usdid sexual things
(24:57):
with each other.
And I don't want you to everhave to go through that.
So if you do or,you know, run into that, you
you make surethat you call me right away.
And, and I can't tell youhow many times
I've saved my kidsfrom experiences just by saying,
hey, when you werewhen I was 13,
my friend in class did this.
Is that kind ofstill happening at your age?
And just so you know, like,you can always talk to me
(25:19):
about that,just keeping the door open.
Well, okay.
Changing, topicsjust a little bit.
Let's talk a little bitmore about peer desire
specifically because, you know,listeners of our show
are definitely goingto be aware of peer desire
because we talk aboutyou guys frequently.
But the thingsthat you guys offer
and the things that you providereally supplement beautifully.
(25:42):
The things that we do hereat Covenant Eyes.
And soI think that this is a tool
and a resource that people canreally leverage.
So can you sharewith our listeners a little bit
about howthey can get connected,
the typesof resources that you have
and the ways that,I think you also
have some communities and groupsthat they could maybe
get involved in.
So let's talk a little bitabout all that.
(26:02):
Yeah.
And I, I'm a huge fan of,you know, doing the long group
like we haveand then also doing groups
where you can have a quickerstart date,
get some drop in help.
Just a variety of things to,to give yourself what you need.
Because when you're early on anaddiction recovery
or even betrayal healing,you want it.
(26:24):
You do want to protect yourselffrom those outside triggers
as you'retrying to work on the inner
inner workings.
And so, do all the doeverything you can that
you need, you know,if you need more, take more.
But our groups are forwe have groups for men and women
who struggle with anythingporn less affairs.
Prostitution.
It doesn't matterbecause we know
(26:45):
that sexual addictionis not about sex.
It's just whatwe're doing to cope
with that, with the symptoms.
And so, those all ofour groups are about
7 to 9 months long,and they're long on purpose
because we want you to bewith a support team of people,
a group of people who help youas you
put these tools and process.
(27:06):
If one sermonor one prayer or one
anointing deliverancemeeting worked,
we wouldn't be where we're at.
And so taking the timeto be with a group,
to actually use the toolsand renew your thinking,
be transformedby the renewing of your mind
with people who get it.
And our groups are closed.
So you join 6or 7 women in the group,
(27:27):
and those are going to bethe same women you stay with.
And that'swhy we're saying there's
there's huge perks of being ableto drop into a group
when you need it.
It's like S.O.S.
and you need help.
And then weand then there's a place
for our groups, which arewe're ready to commit
and dive in and do this workof unpacking our story
and using the tools.
So men and womenwho struggle, men and women
who have been betrayed,we have resources for both,
(27:50):
our Sexual Integrity101 course is kind of like
you're justgetting your feet wet,
and maybe you want to geta basic overview of things.
That would be a good courseto start with.
And then our parenttraining course
could be for youth leaders,parents, grandparents,
often goodto advertise that as a a way
to open a door in the church,you know,
because people are willingto help their kids,
(28:10):
usually beforestepping up and saying,
hey, I struggle to find,so that's a good
resource for them.
It's funny you bring that upthat people are often
willing to take that step firstbecause, you know, in the news
lately, we've seen a lotof mama bears out there
and they're, you know, demandinghealthy food options,
which I agree with. Yes.
Pleasedon't put poison in my food.
That would be great.
(28:31):
But, you know, at the same time,we have poison
entering the heartsand minds of our children
through technologyon a constant basis.
I would love to seea movement of moms activating
in the waythat they have against,
you know, poison in our foodand in the same way
against pornographyand the impacts, because we're
(28:52):
talking about soulsthat are at stake here,
not just, you know, our healthand all of that.
So what can we do?
To really geta movement of women
to start taking actionand getting their churches
more engaged andand getting more active
and vocal out in society,what can we do?
Yeah, I love that you said that.
I have a little goosebumpsbecause I agree,
(29:13):
our kids are growing upto think it's normal,
which is why OnlyFansand things like that become
so easy.
It's we're just desensitized.
And so I think it takesthose of us
who have the informationto continue to say,
this is not normal.
When I was recentlyin a conversation
with a girlfriend and she's nowmaking the best
choices necessarily,but she shared
(29:33):
a sexual experienceand I looked at her and said,
that is not normalin any way, shape or form.
That is abuse.
And she was like, really?
Let me like, yes,I think we need to
we need to keep saying thatas parents,
as leaders, as women,we need to keep saying
this is not normal.
This is not healthy.
And unfortunately,there's no one formula
(29:55):
to help the church with that.
I think it's more ofjust walking
through every open door.
And I feel the same waywith with parenting,
it's not usuallyas successful to sit down
and have this giant awkwardtalk as it is, just constantly.
Here's an opportunity to sharea little bit of my story.
Here's an opportunity to sharepart of my experience,
or give some adviceor say, hey, can I
can I give you my perspectiveon that?
(30:17):
And same with the church.
If you can go up frontand even briefly share.
Hey, we have groups for womenwho are struggling
with relationships,love, pornography,
whatever it is.
And if you're bold enoughor you have somebody
to just say these groupshave personally helped me,
that's enough.
You don't have to go up thereand share your whole story
(30:37):
when you say, here'swhat the group is about
and it's personallybenefited me, they are in
because they want to connectwith another woman who gets it.
Or you do the same thingwith material
for betrayed spouses.
And you say,I've actually benefited
from this, and thenand then host
an orientation meeting,make sure that you have
bulletins in the bathroom.
I mean, there we want pastorsto see this as the problem
(31:01):
that it is like,what would we do
if 70% of our menand 40% of our women
were showing up high and drunkin our sermons on Sunday?
I mean, like, it is the samekind of damage, but
but we it's sounder the surface and,
and so many people arestruggling with it and so
(31:22):
there's like what we hope forthat pastors would see this,
that they'd pick upthe Barna report and be like,
oh my gosh, I had no idea.
We need to rally the troops.
But but moreoften than not, it's
the it's the mama bear.
It's the wife who's been hurt.
It's the personwho's been abused.
It's the woman who foundhealing from pornography
and doesn't want others to havethat shame that is just
(31:44):
going through every open doorand sharing each opportunity.
She gets.
I love that, and I thinkanyone listening to
this podcast knowsthat they have three strong
allies right hereon this podcast.
But if you need help or ideas,all of us are accessible
and we willdefinitely support you
because it is going to take usstepping forward
with some courageand some humbleness
(32:05):
to really get thingsstarted oftentimes.
But there are so many womenout there
that need us to do thatand to lead the way.
So ladies, this has been agreat conversation.
I'm so excited to share thiswith our audience,
and I appreciate both of you.
Thank you for being vulnerable.
Thank youfor sharing your own stories
and sharing the wisdomthat you've learned
along the way,and the great resources
at Peer Desire.
(32:26):
Thank you so much.
We appreciate it.
Yeah, thank youfor having me on today.
I just get so energizedby these conversations
and partnering with you guys.
Awesome.
Well, thanks, Heidifor joining me today.
It's been so good.
And you will see Heidiback on the podcast periodically
throughout the year.
So we are looking forwardto having her lean in
to our conversations.
(32:47):
And until next timeeverybody take care.
God bless.
We'll see you again.
Everybody, welcome back toThe Covenant Eyes Podcast.
It's so good to bewith you all today.
I have got an amazing hostjoining us for the first time
on The Covenant Eyes Podcast.
I have Heidi Cooper,our very own Covenant Eyes
recovery specialist,who is a reverend, pastoral sex
addiction professional.
(00:27):
She has an MA in pastoralcounseling specializing
in addiction recovery,and she is
part of the Covenant Eyesfamily.
We wanted to bring heron the show to,
kind of be our expertin the wings here.
So, Heidi,thanks for joining us today.
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited.
Yeah.
Would you like to introduce,another amazing woman
(00:48):
that we have joining us todayfor the episode? Sure.
This is Ashley Jamesonfrom Pure Desire, who oversees
all of the women'sside of Pierce ministries.
And I've known Ashley for,gosh, I don't know, at least
about ten years.
And, having led groups myselfwith Pure Desire a while ago.
And so, yeah, Ashley,we're just really excited
(01:10):
to have you here.
It's good to seeyour face again.
And, we're excited for.
Yeah, whatyou have to share with us
this today.
I am excited to be here, too.
I love just jumping on hereand, you know,
not having a big agenda,just getting to connect again
with, our sisterswho are doing the same work
and banding together.
So happy to be here, Ashley.
(01:31):
For thosewho are not familiar with,
some of the thingsthat you're doing
at Pure Desire,which most people should be,
I obviously following the workthat you're doing,
which is amazing stuff.
Can you share a little bitabout what you do specifically
with Pure Desire?
And I believe you've rolled outsome new things
that peer desire specificallyfor the women out there.
Yeah.
(01:51):
We have like Heidi said,I oversee the women's groups and
and so my role has beenpartnering with the church
or with peoplewho want to start groups.
We also help the individualswho come to us.
My story was being a wifewho needed a group
and there was none around.
And so I just started it.
And so I have a passionto make sure
(02:12):
that women are not out therejust floundering for help.
And we're doing such a good jobof providing information
through podcasts and online.
But what I appreciate aboutpeer Desire is we package things
so it's easy for people to comeand just start
plugging in or use the material.
Our newest offerings, recentlywould be Authentically You.
(02:33):
It's a 20 week workbookfor single women.
And so it's managinglove, sex and relationships
for for single women.
And, we have our unraveledfor that.
It's a little heftier.
It's 36 weeks, I think.
Don't quote me.
And the stories,might be geared toward
people who are married.
And so we,we just created something
(02:53):
a little smaller, shorter.
It would easily fitinto a college curriculum,
a school, a school year if ifstudents wanted to follow that
and then, we're coming upon our one year anniversary.
So close.
Heather and I,our lady at Pure Desire
that our brain teaching.
We co-host a podcast
n (03:14):
Real Talk About Sex and Love.
And they're just short15, 20 minute, bite sized,
bite sized episodes.
And we answer three questionsthat come in from listeners.
So all of our questions,all of our content is,
material and questions thatpeople send us.
Yeah, I've actually seen,the podcast, it's
it's great, a great resource.
(03:35):
You guys get really rawand vulnerable and transparent.
And that's what I love about it.
Yeah, I'm really thankful for itbecause we do get women
that say, I've never askedthis question out loud,
or they'll send us an email and,and give us back story
and, and say, but don't readthat on the air.
Just this is my question.
And and I've had the chanceto interact
(03:57):
with a few, like, I can'tI need a little more information
before I answer this question,and I'll ask the lady
a question and say, well,have you talked
to your husband about that?
Have you asked himwhy he doesn't want to
take Viagra or whatever it is?
And then she goes like she goes,that opened up
so much conversation.
I don't even thinkI need help anymore.
And so justgetting to interact with
women is really cool.
And this isn't specificallyfor women, but a lot of
(04:19):
women are mothers.
And we have our new,parenting course,
parent training course.
And then we also have,which is free,
our youth leader library.
And so that has sermon outlinesor message outlines
and 3 to 5 minute videosthat the leader
or the youth leaderor possibly the parent,
I think parents should use itto can go watch that 3
(04:40):
to 5 minute video,and then they're equipped
to talk with theirtheir kids or students.
Those are amazingresources for women.
And I wish I could say there'sso many resources
for women out there.
There's not.
So let's talka little bit about that.
Why is it so hard to find goodChristian based resources
(05:01):
to help usanswer those tough questions
that you know, you're gettingon your podcast, or just
that we're dealing withfrom our own sexual brokenness
or our own past stories.
You know, why is it so hard?
And why is the churchnot a place where we're
talking about thismore frequently?
Well, you know ourthe latest Barna report that we,
(05:21):
we partnered with Barnacreated for
you know you guys know Heidi wasat our launch
representing Covenant Eyes.
It shows that stillafter all these years
only 10% of churcheseven have a program
of some kind.
And so and then they're usuallyfor men on top of that.
And, and so the shamelevel of women specifically
who are strugglingwith sexual compulsive
(05:42):
sexual behavioror pornography is so high.
So their shame,and then our leaders,
more of them than not,are either currently struggling
or have had a pastor's strugglesand they haven't dealt
with their shamebecause getting sober
is not the same as breakingfree of the shame
and using your story.
And so we've got leaderswho are struggling
(06:02):
and afraid to talk about it.
A lot of leaders and pastorsin the church are men.
And and so ifthe majority of our
leaders are men,we need to make sure
that we are putting womenaround the church
and said at least sayingthis is your person to go to
if you're struggling, that we'rewe're verbalizing
that from the pulpit,even if we don't
have women up there.
And then the research alsoalso shows
(06:25):
that at least 40% of womenare regularly viewing porn.
And it'sgetting really convoluted
because women arelooking at porn.
And then they're saying to me,I think I'm
same sex attracted nowbecause this porn is arousing.
And I'm like,it's designed to be arousing.
That's not, you know, like it'sjust getting so messy.
And I think the waythat we have to combat
(06:46):
it is people like usjust continuing
to put the information out therebefore people need it.
So then when they need it,they know where to come.
Right.
You had mentioned,you know, women struggling to
can you speak a little bitto the stigma that is,
been on women of thatwomen like, aren't sexual people
(07:09):
and that only men, are sexual,you know, very sexual beings.
Can you just speak a littleabout that to what you've seen
with all of the peopleyou work with?
And, just a little more detailof like that, how specifically
like women struggle also.
Yeah.
Well,I love data for that reason.
(07:29):
I'm not a data person.
I do not like numbers.
Measurablesis a trigger word for me,
but it's so valuablewhen we get data
because we're seeingthat Christian women, 40%
are regularly viewing porn.
And when wewhen we dive into why there are
so many differentthings, porn now finds us.
You guys know that.
(07:49):
That's why we haveKevin eyes on our phone,
because we don't haveto go searching for it anymore.
It just targets us and thethe porn industry targeting men.
They're they're like, oh,we have this whole pocket
of peoplethat we haven't gone after.
So let's be really craftyin our marketing
and what we do to go after womenthe same way they did with,
(08:10):
with alcohol and, and cigarets.
It's like,let's get the women, let's
make this appealing to women.
And so the number is risingand it is a fast
growing demographic.
And so women are viewing itbecause it's
falling in their lapand they're curious
and it's arousing,but because nobody
is talking about itwith them ahead of time,
they don't know what to dowith those feelings
when they stumble across it.
(08:30):
And so then it can becomea curious thing
where they're like, Iwant to go back to that.
The other part of it is Ihave some betrayed spouses.
I might have been guilty of thiswho look it up
because they want to knowwhat their competition is like.
What is my husband looking at?
That is not I'mnot good enough for.
And then they getsucked into it, even though
(08:50):
that's not wherethey started from.
And, and then I have womencome into our unravel groups.
I specificallyremember this one.
But this this happens so oftenthey're coming in and their
their struggle is more affairsand romance novels and movies
and they're, they're saying, oh,I don't really
have any struggle sexually.
I just had an affair.
(09:11):
And then as they finally getinto the material,
they can see the threadsof needing fulfillment through,
through love.
And and in that search for love,they're willing
to do these sexual things,whether it's watching porn
or acting out sexuallyin order to feel loved.
And sothere's all kinds of things.
But honestly, women stumbleacross it the same way men do,
(09:33):
and then theybecome aroused by it
and seek after itthe same way men do.
And these other things.
Yeah, that's good information.
And I think you bring upan interesting
thought in my mindas you were speaking.
You know, I know women aredefinitely struggling
with pornographyat much higher rates,
even inside the church.
But let's talk a little bit,because I'm hearing
(09:53):
this more and morewhen I'm out at events
and conferencesof the OnlyFans situation,
where we have young girlsthat are being lured
into making pornographyand OnlyFans,
which ends up giving us,you know, so much
trauma later in life.
I mean, we'restruggling through that.
That's the sexual brokennessthat comes from
using our bodies in that way.
(10:14):
And participating in that.
How is that impacting?
And are you guys seeingpeople come into your groups
that are also being luredinto this type of, industry
with false expectationsand then feeling that
brokenness on the other side?
Absolutely.
I have seen this,more often than I want to.
(10:34):
And it's it's, you know,I feel like most
young people, they're like,I want to be a famous YouTuber.
I want to be a famous singer.
I want to be an actress.
We all want to be famousbecause.
Because media makesthat look like you have arrived.
If you're if you're famousand you have all of that.
And sokids are really vulnerable.
Teenagers and young peopleare really vulnerable
(10:55):
to believing thatthe route they want to take.
And so when they're offeredsomething like,
hey, this is easy money,it will give you exposure,
it will give you opportunity.
And they take thatand then it just gets deeper
and deeper the other side of it.
That I've heard fromsome of my moms.
And the thing is, is likewe have this perception of what
(11:15):
those women look like,and they are the women
in our church.
They are the womengo leading our MOPS groups.
And and I kid you not,we just don't have
and we have no idea whowho is struggling with this.
And we can't assume,but they're coming in
and saying, well,I really needed the income.
And this was easy.
I could put my kids to bedand shut the door and get online
(11:36):
and make hundredsof thousands of dollars,
and then it's hard to stoponce you're in it.
So being promised somethingand then having it not turn out
to be what they want.
Going after vulnerable kids.
This is why.
And I will tell your listeners,you guys did not hire me or
pay me to say this,but this is why
things like havingeyes is so important,
(11:57):
because you get thoselittle alerts that that tell you
where your kids are goingand online and,
and it's not just kids,it's it's obviously adults too.
I, I don't know whereI would have been at 23
when I was a single mom,but this kind of stuff
was not the way it is now,back then.
So it's really sad.
(12:19):
But but there is a way outand it's so much better
and so much more life giving.
But it's the women are in thereand doing that,
and they don't know thatthere is another way then.
Then they don't even knowwhere to begin.
So they need peopleto speak up for them.
Absolutely.
And I think, you know,we're probably going
to see a generation,the next generation
is really going to be dealingwith a whole new set of issues.
(12:43):
But ultimately,at the end of the day, it's
all at the root of justsexual brokenness.
I mean, whether it comesin the form of pornography
or affairsor there's a host of ways
that we can become broken.
So talk to usa little bit about that.
You know, we use that termquite a bit, but what does it
actually mean for someoneto have sexual brokenness
and what what isencompassed in that?
(13:06):
So, I it's funny because Ihave my own story around this,
and I was broken as all get out.
You know, it's it's likeI see it two different ways.
You've got predators.
Who is the porn industry,who are sex traffickers,
who are men who want to takeadvantage of women.
(13:27):
And they they can spotthat vulnerability
and smell it from a mile away.
And that's why secure,securely attached people attract
other securely attachedpeople and vice versa.
If you're not, if you're intoif you have an insecure
attachment,it's really easy to for me,
let's sayI'm anxious, ambivalent
when I'm in my weakest placesto then be desperate
(13:50):
and want to have my needs metin a desperate way.
That hurts me. And so, when Iwhen I see women who
are coming into this,coming into this exposure,
that that's reallyat the root of it
is that they're they're notthey're not secure
in what they deserveor in their identity.
(14:13):
And so they're vulnerableto stepping into these areas
that that end upcausing them more harm.
Brokenness does not have to saystay broken.
I mean, if you guys seeour betrayal and beyond,
you'll see the kintsugi isthat was called
the art with the gold.
And I am such an advocate ofI was really careful
when we were writingauthentically you,
Heather and I.
(14:33):
To not call the young girlslike to not make them feel
like they had to stay broken,because I was so broken
and God made me strongerthan I was before.
But that was ayucky narrative message
that I had to reframe because ofwhat was told to me growing up.
(14:54):
I heardI believe, those messages
about myself,and so I had to rewrite that
in that I'm a masterpiece.
Masterpiece isn't broken.
I am a masterpiece.
And I was broken.
But God restored meand he made all things new.
And he made me strongerand a new creation.
And he gave me backwith the locust, all and all the
things of my past. And so,yes, we are all broken and
(15:17):
all in need of a Savior.
And then and then we get to livein that newness
and we get to walk it out.
And I think that'swhat makes people
that do our work so attractive.
I love beingwith other people who
who can say, here are the areasI've been broken, here
are the areas I've been dropped.
Here are the areasI've made mistakes.
This is what God did for me.
(15:37):
This is what the women around medid with me and helped me.
And here's where I'm at now.
And there's no shame.
I can, you know, use that storyto help others.
And so brokenness can becomeso beautiful when we don't stay
stuck there.
And we understandwhat God can do
and has done for us.
I think that's so important,Karen, that you bring that up.
(16:00):
I think the term, likeyou said, sexual brokenness.
Like like you said,actually were all broken.
But I remember,being like a young Bible
college studentand me and my husband
were getting readyto get married,
and the counselor actually,you know, they do those
little historiesto see, you know,
what you've had.
And I had sexual abusein my history.
(16:21):
She actually told my husband,you do know
you're getting damaged goods.
And she said it like,right in front of me.
And this was like 25 years ago,you know, where there
still was not a lot.
There was sex was not talkedabout in the church.
And, so I think it'sso important that,
you know, especially men,it's been talked
(16:42):
about for a long time,and it still needs to be.
But for women, especially,there's such a connotation
that eventhey've been sexually abused,
which a lot of times causes.
Yeah, the sexual brokennessthat leads them to porn
and to sexual addiction,which is what we're seeing
in our Covenant EyesArise program.
As I'm moderating the comments,I, I'm just blown away
(17:05):
at how many of these womenwho are struggling with porn,
have been sexually abused.
Yeah.
I mean, it'sjust like one of every three
that I'm seeing,and it's just very
sad that there's been like,you're damaged or broken.
Can you speak a little bitto that, to our viewers of women
who may be struggling?
(17:27):
I know you've you've,connected about that.
There's no shame.
Can you just hita little more on that?
That if they're walkingthrough things like that trauma
that have impacted,their secretary acting out?
Yeah.
Just share a little bitof in your groups
how you see that,start to unravel and kind of
be healed with womenwho have experienced that.
(17:49):
Yeah.
And I think it is such adisgusting scheme of the devil
to go after our children.
I've had childrenwho have gone through things
and I'm like,get your dirty little hooks
out of my kids, you know, and itand that's how I feel
even about us, like little Heidiand little Ashley,
that it's just so messed up and,and it's saying in, you know,
(18:11):
my story, Heidi,I was raped as a 15 year
old, and I felt damaged.
I felt like, I know now noChristian husband
will ever want me.
And so I disqualified myself.
I didn't have the therapist.
You said it to me like you,but the the church messages,
even though they didn't mean to.
That's what I heard in church,is that I'm damaged.
(18:32):
Because when you saybeing a virgin is the only way.
And I want my sonto marry a virgin,
and you need to saveyour purity, I. Okay?
I'm like, I'm dirty, I'm impure,I am broken,
I'm damaged goods andand just like you said, Heidi,
it ended up making me feel like,well, I'm already damaged
and I'm never goingto get a Christian husband.
(18:54):
And.
And because I was always seekinglove, I'm like,
this is a way thatI can feel loved.
I can take control.
And I started acting,sexually after that,
even though it was such aterrible experience for me.
And that's where I think wewe need to do better
in being proactive to saywhen you have
a sexual experience,that's traumatizing.
(19:15):
And if it's at a young age,it's always trauma
that you can have a mixedfeeling of pleasure,
fear, curiosity, arousal.
And that is normal.
And so that we knowwhat we're experiencing
and we know thatwe can feel that
because like yousaid, it's a huge issue
that impacts so many people.
And so I actually didn't workthrough the damage that caused
(19:39):
until I went through groupsfor my husband's addiction
and hishis history with prostitutes
and the betrayal I felt.
Then as I went throughthat I was going way
against the addict partof the material apply to me.
I'm the betrayed spouse.
And so I had to go through thebetrayal stuff first
and then circle back aroundand start going through things
that were more specific to mebecause I recognized
(20:02):
that I was livingin that brokenness.
I was staying there.
And that's what I mean iswe all experience
some kind of brokennessin a fallen, fallen world.
But the key,I think, is to not stay there
and do not have thatbe your identity.
And going through groups,doing all these resources,
absorbing the materialis what helped me realize
(20:22):
that's not my identity.
Those are lies that I picked upalong the way.
You can identifyone with your counselor.
I can identify a few with churchspecific things
that were done or said to methat made me believe
those things about myself.
That's awesome.
Thank you for sharing that.
And your story is somewhatsimilar to mine.
I had a similar experience,but I was 14.
(20:43):
And really just instead oftaking that experience
and getting the helpI needed at that point,
I jumped off, you know, a cliffand just decided
to go full throttlein the opposite direction
of the Lordinstead of seeking him
for healing.
And it can be so damagingto young people.
And I think nowadaysour young people
are experiencingdifferent types of trauma
(21:03):
because of technology, you know,sexting and the bullying
that might happen after that.
You know, onetext could change your life
forever, right?
Or, you know, they'rethey're getting engaged with,
you know,only or different activities.
And those things stay with them.
We didn't have technologyin our day.
Thank the Lord for that.
But certainly I just want totalk a little bit because I know
(21:24):
you guys came out with a newparenting resource.
And for the momsthat might be listening
to this episodewho are worried about their
young daughters and how tonavigate technology
and the pornified cultureand all of that,
can you talk a little bitabout maybe some things that
maybe you wishthat you would have had,
in your childhoodthat maybe would have helped
(21:44):
you navigate, the situationthat you were in, or even
just thinking of your parentingnow with your children,
the things that maybeyou've done
that have worked well, or thingsthat you have for advice.
Yeah.
I mean, the, the,the biggest things
I can think of our conversation,you know, a lack of conversation
tells the kids something.
(22:06):
And if if our kidsand friends experience
something orwe see a family member,
we hear about something,the way we talk about that
in front of our kids,whether we're a church leader,
talking about itin front of other people,
or a parent talking about infront of kids, we hear that
and then we hear, okay, it'snot ever safe for me
to go forwardand talk about that.
(22:26):
And so making sure that you'rehaving a conversation
about anythinghaving to do with sex, porn
or struggles in a waythat is full of grace
and understanding,but also honest about
where it can lead.
And so I have those questionswith my mom
or those conversationswith my daughter.
And I don't thinkthat you can do it
(22:47):
unless you've workedthrough your own stuff,
because if we don't workthrough our own stuff,
then we always dance aroundconversations that come up,
and we're never fully freeto be vulnerable
with our answers and transparentwith our answers.
Because, oh,we can't get too close
to that one.
That one makes mefeel uncomfortable.
This one's bringing up a triggerI haven't dealt with.
And so it's really importantthat as parents,
we work through our own storyso we can tell
(23:09):
a coherent narrative.
And then with my sons, my,they're 21 now.
But when we started our recoveryand healing process,
they were only ten.
And so I felt sohopeless, like...
Oh no,I screwed them up so badly!
Because we were both addicts.
I was going through betrayal.
We we definitely were.
The kind of parents were like,here's the checklist of things
(23:32):
you need to do to be raisedas a Christian kid,
it was more rulesthan relationship.
And so we juststarted turning that,
turning that aroundeven when they were ten
and just continuing to go backand even apologize
for things and say,hey, I was going through this
when I was raising you,or I remember that one time
where I kind of exploded.
(23:53):
This waswhat was really happening,
and it wasn't about you.
And so just being transparentwith your kids and teaching them
to trust their gut because ifeven if they come up to you
and say, hey, mom, what's wrong?
And you're injust a terrible mood from work
or something with your husband,and you say,
oh, nothing's wrong.
That's like akind of gaslighting your child,
you know, likewe want them to be in tuned
(24:16):
and we want themto be emotionally intelligent
and be able to sensewhat's going on
and trust their gut.
And so just working towardbeing 100% authentic
with your kids so you can say,you know what?
You're really perceptive.
There is something wrongwith me.
I'm not having the greatest day.
Thanks for asking.
Would be a better responsethan making them feel like their
(24:37):
their gut is off. And so, yeah.
Where for your own story,another piece of advice
I give isjust think about the things
that happen to youor your friends
or you heard aboutat their ages.
So at nine I said, hey,when I was around nine,
we had kidsthat weren't supervised
at sleepovers, and some of usdid sexual things
(24:57):
with each other.
And I don't want you to everhave to go through that.
So if you do or,you know, run into that, you
you make surethat you call me right away.
And, and I can't tell youhow many times
I've saved my kidsfrom experiences just by saying,
hey, when you werewhen I was 13,
my friend in class did this.
Is that kind ofstill happening at your age?
And just so you know, like,you can always talk to me
(25:19):
about that,just keeping the door open.
Well, okay.
Changing, topicsjust a little bit.
Let's talk a little bitmore about peer desire
specifically because, you know,listeners of our show
are definitely goingto be aware of peer desire
because we talk aboutyou guys frequently.
But the thingsthat you guys offer
and the things that you providereally supplement beautifully.
(25:42):
The things that we do hereat Covenant Eyes.
And soI think that this is a tool
and a resource that people canreally leverage.
So can you sharewith our listeners a little bit
about howthey can get connected,
the typesof resources that you have
and the ways that,I think you also
have some communities and groupsthat they could maybe
get involved in.
So let's talk a little bitabout all that.
(26:02):
Yeah.
And I, I'm a huge fan of,you know, doing the long group
like we haveand then also doing groups
where you can have a quickerstart date,
get some drop in help.
Just a variety of things to,to give yourself what you need.
Because when you're early on anaddiction recovery
or even betrayal healing,you want it.
(26:24):
You do want to protect yourselffrom those outside triggers
as you'retrying to work on the inner
inner workings.
And so, do all the doeverything you can that
you need, you know,if you need more, take more.
But our groups are forwe have groups for men and women
who struggle with anythingporn less affairs.
Prostitution.
It doesn't matterbecause we know
(26:45):
that sexual addictionis not about sex.
It's just whatwe're doing to cope
with that, with the symptoms.
And so, those all ofour groups are about
7 to 9 months long,and they're long on purpose
because we want you to bewith a support team of people,
a group of people who help youas you
put these tools and process.
(27:06):
If one sermonor one prayer or one
anointing deliverancemeeting worked,
we wouldn't be where we're at.
And so taking the timeto be with a group,
to actually use the toolsand renew your thinking,
be transformedby the renewing of your mind
with people who get it.
And our groups are closed.
So you join 6or 7 women in the group,
(27:27):
and those are going to bethe same women you stay with.
And that'swhy we're saying there's
there's huge perks of being ableto drop into a group
when you need it.
It's like S.O.S.
and you need help.
And then weand then there's a place
for our groups, which arewe're ready to commit
and dive in and do this workof unpacking our story
and using the tools.
So men and womenwho struggle, men and women
who have been betrayed,we have resources for both,
(27:50):
our Sexual Integrity101 course is kind of like
you're justgetting your feet wet,
and maybe you want to geta basic overview of things.
That would be a good courseto start with.
And then our parenttraining course
could be for youth leaders,parents, grandparents,
often goodto advertise that as a a way
to open a door in the church,you know,
because people are willingto help their kids,
(28:10):
usually beforestepping up and saying,
hey, I struggle to find,so that's a good
resource for them.
It's funny you bring that upthat people are often
willing to take that step firstbecause, you know, in the news
lately, we've seen a lotof mama bears out there
and they're, you know, demandinghealthy food options,
which I agree with. Yes.
Pleasedon't put poison in my food.
That would be great.
(28:31):
But, you know, at the same time,we have poison
entering the heartsand minds of our children
through technologyon a constant basis.
I would love to seea movement of moms activating
in the waythat they have against,
you know, poison in our foodand in the same way
against pornographyand the impacts, because we're
(28:52):
talking about soulsthat are at stake here,
not just, you know, our healthand all of that.
So what can we do?
To really geta movement of women
to start taking actionand getting their churches
more engaged andand getting more active
and vocal out in society,what can we do?
Yeah, I love that you said that.
I have a little goosebumpsbecause I agree,
(29:13):
our kids are growing upto think it's normal,
which is why OnlyFansand things like that become
so easy.
It's we're just desensitized.
And so I think it takesthose of us
who have the informationto continue to say,
this is not normal.
When I was recentlyin a conversation
with a girlfriend and she's nowmaking the best
choices necessarily,but she shared
(29:33):
a sexual experienceand I looked at her and said,
that is not normalin any way, shape or form.
That is abuse.
And she was like, really?
Let me like, yes,I think we need to
we need to keep saying thatas parents,
as leaders, as women,we need to keep saying
this is not normal.
This is not healthy.
And unfortunately,there's no one formula
(29:55):
to help the church with that.
I think it's more ofjust walking
through every open door.
And I feel the same waywith with parenting,
it's not usuallyas successful to sit down
and have this giant awkwardtalk as it is, just constantly.
Here's an opportunity to sharea little bit of my story.
Here's an opportunity to sharepart of my experience,
or give some adviceor say, hey, can I
can I give you my perspectiveon that?
(30:17):
And same with the church.
If you can go up frontand even briefly share.
Hey, we have groups for womenwho are struggling
with relationships,love, pornography,
whatever it is.
And if you're bold enoughor you have somebody
to just say these groupshave personally helped me,
that's enough.
You don't have to go up thereand share your whole story
(30:37):
when you say, here'swhat the group is about
and it's personallybenefited me, they are in
because they want to connectwith another woman who gets it.
Or you do the same thingwith material
for betrayed spouses.
And you say,I've actually benefited
from this, and thenand then host
an orientation meeting,make sure that you have
bulletins in the bathroom.
I mean, there we want pastorsto see this as the problem
(31:01):
that it is like,what would we do
if 70% of our menand 40% of our women
were showing up high and drunkin our sermons on Sunday?
I mean, like, it is the samekind of damage, but
but we it's sounder the surface and,
and so many people arestruggling with it and so
(31:22):
there's like what we hope forthat pastors would see this,
that they'd pick upthe Barna report and be like,
oh my gosh, I had no idea.
We need to rally the troops.
But but moreoften than not, it's
the it's the mama bear.
It's the wife who's been hurt.
It's the personwho's been abused.
It's the woman who foundhealing from pornography
and doesn't want others to havethat shame that is just
(31:44):
going through every open doorand sharing each opportunity.
She gets.
I love that, and I thinkanyone listening to
this podcast knowsthat they have three strong
allies right hereon this podcast.
But if you need help or ideas,all of us are accessible
and we willdefinitely support you
because it is going to take usstepping forward
with some courageand some humbleness
(32:05):
to really get thingsstarted oftentimes.
But there are so many womenout there
that need us to do thatand to lead the way.
So ladies, this has been agreat conversation.
I'm so excited to share thiswith our audience,
and I appreciate both of you.
Thank you for being vulnerable.
Thank youfor sharing your own stories
and sharing the wisdomthat you've learned
along the way,and the great resources
at Peer Desire.
(32:26):
Thank you so much.
We appreciate it.
Yeah, thank youfor having me on today.
I just get so energizedby these conversations
and partnering with you guys.
Awesome.
Well, thanks, Heidifor joining me today.
It's been so good.
And you will see Heidiback on the podcast periodically
throughout the year.
So we are looking forwardto having her lean in
to our conversations.
(32:47):
And until next timeeverybody take care.
God bless.
We'll see you again.
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