April 23, 2025 • 41 mins
In this episode of The Covenant Eyes Podcast, we’re joined by Paul Klassen, Executive Director of Broken Strength | A Path to Purity.
Paul shares his 20-year struggle with pornography, how God used his wife's forgiveness to spark transformation, and why churches can—and must—create spaces of honesty and healing.
Discover how Paul's ministry is helping churches host life-changing events, train lay leaders, and walk with men toward true freedom.
If you're a pastor, ministry leader, or someone battling shame in silence—this conversation is for you.
🔗 Learn more about Broken Strength: https://www.apathtopurity.org
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📖 Suggested Resource: Finally Free by Heath Lambert
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
Hey, everybody, welcome backto The Covenant Eyes Podcast.
We're so gladto have you joining us.
We've got anothergreat episode today,
and today's episodeis really going to be focused
on a ministry that is reallyserving the church
and serving themwell, and has a heart to help
the church addresssexual brokenness
that we are experiencingall across this country.
(00:27):
So today's guest,we have Paul Klassen.
Did I get that right?
Yeah, you did awesome.
Awesome.
We've got Paul joining us today.
He has got an amazingministry called Broken
Strength | A Path to Purity.
And Paul, would you mindjust telling our listeners
a little bitabout the origin story
of the ministryand just a little bit
about yourself as well?
(00:48):
Yeah, yeah.
Thanks, Karen.
Love, love being a part of this.
This was reallypart of my weekly, rhythm
is a Covenant Eyes podcast, and,Yeah, it's a privilege
to join you.
I, I'm, I've been marriedfor 34.5 years, to Becky, and,
we have six childrenfor adult kids and and to,
(01:11):
to still at home with us.
I've been a pastor,for 13 years.
And in the midst of that,had a mentor, who started
this ministry, actually startedbroken strength.
Joel Smith started itwith a group of volunteers,
a number of years ago.
And, eventually he's like,I need someone
to take over for me.
And he knew my story.
(01:32):
I have a I have a redemptionstory, Becky and I do.
And, and he said.
And I said, hey, how about me?
And he he's like, well, I didn'tthink about you,
but I don't want to call pastorsout of their church.
I want I want the Lordto do that.
I don't want to be the one whoinitiates that.
So anyway, that kind of ledto this.
(01:52):
And, so it's beenalmost two years now,
that I've beendoing this and pastored,
like I said, for about 12 yearsbefore that
and was a youth pastorbefore that, even,
and so the genesis ofthis really is, is, is a heart
for the local church.
And, and John particularseeing with his number of years
working with church leaders,that this was an issue
(02:13):
that just kept, keptcoming up over and over.
And he's like, wewe got to address this
in a very directand compassionate way,
and really help the churchkind of hold their hands
in that process.
And, and so that's his heartand that's, that's our heart.
Becky and I both, we didn'treally become public
(02:34):
about our storyuntil about 20 years
into into us talking about itafter my personal
20 year secret struggle.
So it's been quite a longwhile in the making.
And then when we decidedto be more public,
this the Lord just kindof led us to this, and
and it's a privilege.
Becky's, a partner in ministry,as she has been for years.
(02:57):
That's awesome.
And I love how God is usingyour brokenness and your story,
to really lift up this ministryand then be able to reach
into the church and helpministers and lay leaders
really address an issue that,frankly, is
one of the top issues.
I think our churchesare struggling with today.
So it's beautifulhow that worked out.
(03:19):
So talk to us a little bitabout the work that you're doing
because I think,oftentimes, you know, we
talk to pastorsand ministry leaders
all the time at Covenant Eyes,and it definitely
is a top concern.
You know, sexual brokenness,pornography use
is becoming an epidemicamong Christians.
I mean, the stats tell usthat seven over
70% of men, Christianmen and 44% of Christian
(03:42):
women are struggling now.
So this is really a big issue.
So talk to usa little bit about the the work
that you're doing with churchesspecifically and how you guys
are supporting them,because you have
kind of an approachthat you take
to help local churchesto correct.
Yeah, we do, we do.
It's it's churches aren't allover the board as far as where
(04:04):
they're at with this.
So we, we start with kind of,well, relationship.
I mean, we have, we're verymuch networked,
within our community.
I'm in I'm based in Minnesota.
I youth pastored in Arizona.
So I have some churches there.
Joe still has contactsaround the country
and different,association of churches.
(04:24):
So it's mainly word of mouth.
I mean, our only webpresence is our website,
and that's somewhat purposeful,that we just want
to draw people to thatand make word of mouth and,
our main way of doing itand, and, and so the way we,
the way we addressit is, again, we,
we fit it to the church,how we ask them,
(04:47):
how do you address this?
How often have you address thisfrom the pulpit?
A question we often ask is,the average
attender to your church,would they say that
that you guys careabout porn addiction?
Would they say thatyou guys talk about it
and are willing to address it?
Most churches would say,I don't think
our average attenderwould even know that
(05:08):
we think about it.
And so we kind of startwith that.
Some churches have groupsthat are maybe
even in the bulletin listed or,they have peer desire
groups or something.
And, but there's not awhole lot of people,
you know, there'smaybe in a large church,
there's maybe 11 guysin the group.
And I asked them, how many guysdo you think's wrong with this?
(05:30):
And, and obviously a lotmore than 11 guys
in a large churchstruggle with it.
And so we help populate,if you will, those groups that
are already goingand we do this through,
through an event,that is in person,
and that is includes,testimonies, Lord willing,
(05:51):
testimonies from the church,from guys that they already know
or even especially leaders,that that's even better.
If they don'tand we say we provide
a testimony, we getwe have plenty of guys
who are willing to traveland willing to say,
yeah, I'll come inand give my story,
but preferablya testimony from within.
And then,either Joe or I present,
(06:13):
like a 30 minute,you know, talk on the biblical.
You know, we don't have to talkabout the biblical view
of sex, necessarily.
Obviously,that's our foundation.
But we more talkabout our culture and, where
we're at in our culture.
Just a reallysober picture of it
and then a sober pictureof the fact
that they're not alone.
(06:35):
That's our main, our main focus.
You're not alone.
And we say why you're not alone.
You don't have to fight alone.
You alone are not the only oneaffected by this.
And so just reallytaking our time around a meal,
around tables.
So table discussionsis where we end our time
and we train up local,like the church,
(06:56):
some church people to lead thoseconversation at the table.
And then eventually we call themto a 3 or 4 week follow up
through the book Finally Free,by Heath Lambert.
That's kind of ourour go to a resource
that, churches just loveyou just does a great job
of starting with grace,and just talking through
(07:17):
just the basics ofand challenging men to,
to to do this with one another,in fellowship.
What true confessionis all those basic
biblical principleswith a counselor
at heart. Really?
Heath House?
So, that's kind of what we do.
And then we maintaincontact with the churches, after
that and, and, and helpthem along the way.
(07:40):
And I guess one final piece,Karen, is, is our prayer
is that a churchchampion would rise up in each
of these churches.
That it's usually a layleader is our goal.
Would say,hey, this is my passion.
I want this to be my ministry.
And so there are kindof our contact points
out, that churchthat the pastor doesn't
have to always be thinking aboutthis, that, that he has kind of
(08:00):
his go to, to updatethe elders, to, be a person
that can help othersthrough this process.
I love that, and that approachreally works.
Well, we've seen that timeand time again
where having a speakercome in often kind of it removes
some of the pressure from thethe local ministry leaders
(08:23):
where, you know, it might bean uncomfortable or a new topic.
But when you bring inan expert, right,
you bring in someonethat's got testimonies to share
and a story to share it really,you kind of de-escalate
the room a little bitand it opens people up,
and then you're ableto educate and empower.
So I love that model.
And I love theshared meal as well.
I think afteryou go through a tough
(08:44):
topic like that,where you really kind of
let people know, like the layof the land, the landscape,
the culture, you're not alone.
It's nice to kind of breakinto smaller groups and,
and just kind of engagewith one another
and reassure one anotherthat you are a band of brothers
or sisters in this together.
So I love that.
I love that approachthat you guys have.
So, you know, going backto your own story
(09:05):
and just kind ofhow it inspired you
to get involvedin this ministry.
I mean, you had been inyouth ministry, you had been
a senior pastor.
So obviously during that time,was the struggle happening
for you while you werein ministry?
And kind of what was thatbreaking point
that led you personallyto seek freedom?
And what what role didyour faith play in all of that?
(09:26):
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, man, that's sucha great question.
I was revealed to pornographyat the age of 12.
Which talking to numerous guys,it's amazing how.
Well, I mean, we know the stats,you know, anywhere from 8 to 13,
but 12 years old.
(09:46):
It's just amazing how that agejust kind of keeps coming up.
And, you know, it just reallygives us a heart for our junior
high leaders, right?
In our churches and,parents with junior high kids,
girls and boys.
You know, the school busis, is a big way
(10:06):
that people are revealed to it.
In fact, school school devices,unfortunately,
they have protections, but theythat's a lot of times where kids
first view it.
And so mine was a bus, olderkid just dropped
this magazine in my lap.
And, for the next 20 years,I just nobody knew.
And, and I didn't tell anybody,and it went from just lustful
(10:29):
thinking to fantasy lifeuntil it got to the point
where I was calling chat lines,and phone sex and,
obviously covering upthe first ten years
of my marriage.
The first three years,timing wise, of of ministry.
I was a junior high pastor,actually, and loved it.
And, and, you know,didn't have any
(10:52):
issues with youth per se,but I had this, this,
this thought lifethat was out of control.
And so, no, I, I did not decideto come forward.
I had decided, in fact,Karen, that I was going
to take this to my gravebecause I felt I had
enough under control, you know,so by God's sovereignty,
(11:17):
my wife, Becky, found a chargeon our phone, and she
almost argued with the personon the other line
saying, this is not our chargefrom our house.
She's like, this didn't happen.
This is a mistake.
And the person kept saying,no, it came from your house.
And then all of a suddenit clicked with my wife.
(11:37):
She's like, well,I guess it could have.
She never even dreamedthat anything like that
could ever be happening.
So that night, she confronted meand I for the first time,
Karen, in 20 years.
I actually toldanother human being
about what's going on.
Wow.
Obviously I didn'ttell her everything,
(11:58):
but I told her a lot,and I, this this dump truck
load of crap, basically,I just laid on my wife
that she had no idea existed.
So, you know, God's.
You talk about my faith and,my convictions.
I knew of God's love.
I knew of his grave,thought about it, received him
(12:23):
as my savior at a young age.
But it wasn't until.
Becky, we don't know how longit was between confession
and forgiveness.
Becky nor I.
Was it a daywas the three weeks.
I don't know, it was.
It was a horrible timein our marriage.
But yeah.
A beautiful time.
Because by the timeshe got to the point,
(12:44):
she sat me down and looked mein the face and told me exactly
what I had done to her,how it made her feel.
And, And she said,I forgive you.
Yeah.
The first timethat really forgiveness
had a face for me,if that makes sense.
(13:04):
Yeah.
Again, I knew ofGod's forgiveness, but that
journey to the heart,where I really, it really
captured me, was when my wifeactually did.
Because I, I was readyfor anything.
I was we never talkedabout divorce.
We knew that was off the table.
But separation,sleep in another room,
whatever I was, yeah,I would have
(13:26):
understood anything.
So that's reallywhere it hit me.
And then that was in the year2000, also the same year
that our first son was born.
And, God's like,you know what, Paul,
if you're not goingto come forward, you need to get
things straight.
If you're going to be leadingyour children and your son
in particular.
We've had two girlsalready and now boy and,
(13:49):
and, so, I would sayprayer for me,
my, my mom was prayingfor me from the day I was born.
She didn't knowthe fruit of that.
But the fact that Godbrought this recovery
start on and not meis a testament to God's
sovereignty and patienceand love for me.
(14:13):
And so that was a kindof the start of it for me,
but then not until20 years later,
after that, that Beckyand I actually feel like
we could be sharingthis more publicly.
And so and so that kind ofis a foundation
for my passion to,to get guys on the front
end of this. Right?
Hey, guys, we've been, 16years and old.
Older is what we tellour churches.
(14:35):
Any guys 16 yearsand older are ready
for this event.
And, and so we have tablesfull of 16 year olds
with their youth pastoror youth leader going through
this together.
And, it just thrills me to knowthat they're talking about this.
Whereas me and youth groupback in the late 80s.
(14:56):
Right.
It ain't happening.
You know, we're not right.
We're joking about it.
We're not talkingseriously about it.
So yeah.
And it's so important too,because I mean, like you
mentioned earlier,you were exposed at 12
and we know of kidsas young as eight, some even
younger than that,that are being exposed to this
(15:16):
graphic violent pornography.
And it shapes their worldview,it shapes them.
They interact with womengoing forward.
It certainly is impactful.
So for, you know,ministry leaders and for parents
specifically, like, we've got toengage our children
because unfortunately,there's not a good solution
(15:38):
to keep your kids insulatedbecause even with the
best protections,even with Covenant
Eyes installed, even with routerprotection, your children,
if they're going to schoollike you were on the bus
and exposed.
I mean, nowadays on the bus,every child has a smartphone.
And that is oneof the most common areas
for children to be exposed.
So I love that you guys really,set up, you know, youth
(16:01):
ministry leaders as well asthese teenagers and parents
and men and women really well,to get them to engage
in this topic.
And I thought you alsomentioned a really good point.
So one of the things that we'veencountered was, you know,
one of the setbacksfor pastors and ministry
leaders in addressingthis is oftentimes they may be
struggling themselveswith their own set of issues.
(16:24):
And so oftenwhen we are struggling with sin,
we don't feel qualified.
We don't want to talk aboutthat secret sin and help others
because we'restruggling ourselves.
Do you guys seeany of that in the work
that you're doingin the church as well?
Well, we we see it a little bitbecause, we do provide pathways
for pastors andchurch leaders to reach out.
(16:48):
We see it more so in that,in the unspoken,
churches that justdo not get back to us, churches
that don't pursue this, that saywe're not ready.
You know, obviouslyI'm making a lot of
assumptions here,but it's assumptions based on
a certain amount of historyand knowledge and research.
(17:13):
And so, what we've seen,like a particular pastor
that I'm working with now,you know, he had never
told anybody until about a yearor two ago.
And we startedhaving discussions,
and he's gaining freedom and,and and,
you know, two years ago,he would have said,
we're not even closeto talking about this
(17:33):
because I'm not ready.
Well, it didn't take too longfor him to say, you know what?
We're ready to talk about it.
Not because I havethis solved in my mind
or in my heart, or even inmy habits yet, but because I,
because I, I know that our menneed to talk about it,
and I don't have to sharemy whole testimony or even part
(17:54):
of my testimony for our men.
But I need at least I knowthe importance of it, and I can
share with themthat it is important.
And so just startingthe conversation
with the pastor, you know, Joe,Joe would have a question.
My predecessorand a good question
(18:15):
that he would ask pastorsbecause he'd meet with
lots of pastors.
One on one is, so tell me some.
Tell me about a, youryour viewing habits
on your device.
You know, just prettysimple question, right?
It doesn't take too longfrom that question.
And to seethe the body language,
(18:35):
when someone respondsto the question to know
what's going on there,is there even a little
bit of guilt aroundwhat you're viewing
on your device?
And so, that's just one one waythat we try to broach
that topic and, and leave it upto the pastor,
if you want to pursuethis, we're a safe place.
(18:55):
And so, yeah, I guess I think.
Does that answer your question?
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. No. It's good.
Yeah.
And I mean, the Barna statsdid some research on this,
I think back in 2016.
And I mean, 1in 5 ministry leaders, you know,
admitted to strugglingin this area.
It's not I mean it'snot a unique thing.
(19:16):
I mean we're all human.
And the sin certainly can touchany one of us.
So I think allthat was really good.
Let's talk a little bit aboutbecause you you work
with a lot of men who definitelyfeel trapped in this sexual sin.
So talk to me a little bitabout some of the misconceptions
that people carryinto this struggle.
And how does brokenstrength work to address that
(19:39):
with the guys?
Yeah, yeah.
Well, there'sthere's lots of them because,
so many of us do italone for so long.
We've fallen for so manydifferent lies and believe them.
But one that comes to mind isis one that I still battle.
And that's that's the ideathat this struggle, even the
(19:59):
blatant actsof disobedience to God,
it defines you as a person.
So about identity, about shame.
I think that's the biggestmisconception that we believe.
I know of God's love,as I mentioned earlier,
of his forgiveness.
(20:20):
But it really, I'm still workingthrough that.
I'm just realizing, evenjust recently,
that God's love for mehad an asterisk next to it.
Yes, God loves me, butI have this thing.
I'm different than everybody.
He loves me differentlythan everybody else
because of this.
(20:43):
So I think the message, themisconception of guys
that struggle with thisis that they're stuck,
that this is who they are.
This is the zoo.
They're always be this is a partof their DNA.
When in fact, God made us this,sexual beings.
That's part of our DNA.
And, and he did thatfor a reason.
For a good reason.
And it could be redeemed.
It can be healed.
(21:05):
And, it's it's part ofhow he works in us
and through usis through our weakness,
through our brokenness.
You know, broken strength,you know, comes from 2
Corinthians 12 (21:15):
9-10, when Paul talks about his own,
brokenness,his thorn in the flesh,
which we don't know what it isfor, probably a
very good reason.
He wants tocommunicate that that,
in our weakness, that'swhere we're strong.
And so if we can talk aboutand work through that and hear
(21:36):
each other's weaknesses,how much stronger, how much
more are we getting our strengthfrom the Lord?
So I guess that'sone misconception,
regarding men,in how they approach this.
I love how, David puts itpoetically.
We have this on ouron our bookmarks, we have these
(21:57):
bookmarks we, we give away and
and, Psalm 103 (21:59):
11-14.
If I could just read this,and it's kind of
a benchmark psalm for us.
For as highas the heavens are above
the earth, so great ishis steadfast love.
His has said love toward thosewho fear him.
As far as the East is fromthe West so far, does he remove
(22:21):
our transgressions from us?
Do we really believe thatit's true, as the father
shows compassionto his children?
So the Lord shows compassionto those who fear him.
And I love this.
Verse 14 For he knows our frame.
He remembers that we are dust.
He knows how mortal we are.
He knows how out we are.
Just sing again.
(22:42):
But yet he continuesto forgive us over
and over again.
And, And so that's our identity.
That's who we are.
We're defined by his love.
We're not defined by our sin.
And it's easier said thandone, for sure.
But that's what we want tocontinue to break down.
And that's whywe need to continue
to talk about it over and overand over again.
(23:04):
Absolutely. Yeah.
And I love that verse.
Oh so good, so good.
You know, pornography isone of those it's a sin
that really thrivesin that secrecy.
And the shame elementis really something that holds
so many people back fromconfessing the sin
and seeking help and restorationfrom that.
So from your perspective,how can the church do better?
(23:27):
I mean, obviously we've talkedabout some ways, you know,
having a speaker come inand talking about the issue,
but how can the churchdo better supporting
individual men who aresilently wrestling
with this issue and maybe aren'tready to come forward?
We've talked abouta couple of ways.
Are there other thingsthat they can do to support men?
And I would even say women,because we know that
(23:47):
the statistics don't liewhen it comes to women, too.
Absolutely. Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, our bandwidth right nowas a ministry is
really focused on men.
My wife is, is,getting training,
and she has a heart for women,women who've been betrayed.
But also, even thoughshe's never struggled,
(24:09):
she's getting some training,you know, she recovery,
is a great resource for that.
And they're actually startinga new training
certificate, there.
And she's going to participatein that.
And so it's definitelyon our radar for sure.
But as far as a church goes,well, what we try to
(24:31):
talk about with them is, ishow how is your church
as far as theconfessional community
is concerned?
How how transparent are your leaders,
your leaders of women,your leaders of men,
your leaders ofthe church overall,
how transparent are they?
Not even necessarily about theirsexuality, but,
(24:53):
how, you know, exampleI get when I was a youth,
when I was in high school,we were in a large church
in the Phoenix area.
And the pastor, great pastor,I mean, great communicator.
And he did something veryyou probably think he thought
it was very little, but it wasvery impactful for me
as a teenager, as he,he gave an illustration.
He said, I was atthe grocery store
(25:14):
with my wife and and, or.
No, he said,someone came up to me
in church and said,I saw you with your wife
at the grocery store.
And, you know, from the pulpit.
He said, myfirst thought was, oh,
no, what was I doing?
Where are we arguing?
What was I looking at?
Another woman.
What was I doing?
And and just for himto saying that
(25:36):
that's what he thought.
Just really, brought it downto the earth.
As far as leaders, pastorsget put on pedestals
way, way to, unfairly,if I could say that.
But pastors, we oftentimeswe do that to ourselves
because we're not really,sharing things from up front.
(26:00):
And so how are you as a church?
Creating that atmosphere.
And I thinkone key part in that is,
how are you doingcommunion together?
Are you doing itin such a way that that you're
allowing space for confession,you're allowing space
for really someand giving examples
of what that looks likeand what people do
(26:20):
struggle with.
That's a perfect time to do it,because that's
why we have it, right.
We it's a memorial of,of of Christ dying for our sins,
even for those that we committedthat morning.
And and to confessthat and to get cleansed
from that sin.
And and so that's avery practical way to do it.
(26:42):
But then also to providemany opportunities, you know,
within women's groups, withinmen's groups,
at the youth group, forfor leaders to model
that transparency.
And I think that'sone of the biggest
practical thingsthey could do on a regular basis
to keep that in front of peoplethat, hey, we were all there.
(27:03):
We're all together.
I love that.
I love that concept because Imean, really, you know, that's
one of the the things I oftenhave seen in, in churches
where, you know, wewe all go there,
we kind of paint the good faceon, you know, everything's fine.
How how are you doing,Sister Karen?
Oh, everything's great.
You know, we don't reallywant to share all of the,
(27:25):
the the deep, dark secrets.
And obviously, you shouldn'tshare those with everybody
that comes up to you and askshow you're doing.
But we we also justput on these fronts.
And so, you know, makingyour congregation a place where
confession of sins,no matter how small or big,
because at the end of the day,they're all thin against the
the God that we serve.
Right?
And so having that kind ofculture created, I think, is
(27:48):
a beautiful way to really allowfor people the space,
whether it's pornography,you know what any whatever our,
our sin of choiceis, we can confess
that regularlyand take that seriously.
I think that creatingthat culture is so impactful.
I love that concept.
Yeah.
And even even though we areconfessing regularly and you're
(28:09):
also forgiven regularly.
Yes.
And that's communicated to rightthat yes, both am and
and the lesswe confess, guess what.
The less that thatthat forgiveness
will take place.
It's a it's a promisefrom Scripture.
So the better we are.
If you want to usethat term, the better
we are confessing, the betterwe are receiving forgiveness
(28:30):
and understanding it.
And I the local churchis a great place
for that to happen.
Absolutely.
And confessing to one another,you know, there's something
powerful in that,like sharing that
with someone else.
There's an accountabilityto that as well,
in the forgiveness also.
So I love that.
That's a great recommendation.
So let's kind of goback to the journey
(28:52):
that men's specifically,you know, as
they go through recoveryor even just the
the beginning stages of recoverywhen they acknowledge
that, you know,they have a brokenness,
there's differentstages to that.
And what's the one thingthat you wish pastors understood
about ministering to someonein that brokenness?
Because, you know, it's notalways something that I think
(29:14):
pastors are trained for.
Some are, but some are not.
They're not equippedand they don't know
how to walk with menthrough this, this journey.
So talk to usa little bit about that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's not it's not it'snot a class in seminary.
Yeah I've heard that.
Yes.
Or or even.
Yeah.
Or even a topic in your pastorscluster that you get together
(29:36):
with other pastors.
Yeah.
So yeah, this is anotheranother great question.
And I can tell you that,they interact with other people
and with pastors who have donewell on this and not so well.
You know, if every pastorhas an opportunity,
to help someone, and indeedthat Barna study the recent one,
(30:00):
I think 75% of pastorssaid that they are currently
helping someone.
Right?
Person.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I think it's safe to saythat 100% of pastors
will be helpingsomeone at some point
in their ministry.
I think it's pretty safe to say,but if every one of them
(30:22):
would be able to haveactually have
the compassion of Christfor them, and understand
how much woundednessand insecurities are behind
the struggle that they seeon the surface,
there's deep seeded liesthat they've been convinced
of, you know,kind of what we talked
about already, misconceptionsthat we have as men.
(30:44):
I mean, 20 years ofsecretly struggling, I'm still
recovering frombeing defined by that
is it's still a process.
And so and so,for pastors to not look at the,
the end product, not just totry to get them off of porn.
Yes. That's important.
(31:04):
And protections.
And, you know,I'm a, I'm one of your,
your lifelong members.
When you guys offeredthat, I'm like, I'm all right,
give it to me.
I don't have to pay every monthnow, which is cool.
And, so I totally love that.
And that's needed, but also theand the and of
(31:25):
of dive into that.
Why are we brokeand what is happen
and to for pastorsto build that compassion even in
their own hearts.
You think about Jesusand his compassion for the woman
at the well,his compassion for the,
anointing his feet and and,the woman anointing his feet is
(31:46):
compassion for, you know,even Nicodemus, he saw beneath,
the Pharisees stuffthat Nicodemus was I mean, he
he had compassionfor all these people.
And, if pastors could actuallydive into them
and know that there'sso much underneath
(32:07):
the surface stuffthat's being confessed
or that I got, or whatever,you know, by default
we communicate to the churchthat sex is, is dirty.
I think we communicatethat mainly by putting that
in the freight in the context ofsexual immorality.
How bad our culture is,you know, look how far away
(32:29):
our culture has gotten.
And so and so we by defaulttalk about that.
And so I guess the other thingwould be to just
how are we communicatingthe beauty of sex
at the same point?
Appropriate obviously, butbut just as much, if not more of
the other side of the, of thedirty side of it,
(32:50):
which unfortunately, ismost of what we see.
As we know, pornography hasbecome more and more violent
and more and more,invasive to and, I mean, it's
all not what Godintended for sex to be.
And, so we can get a lotof the beauty part of them,
(33:12):
if I can use aa Larry Norman counselor
from the 70s, you know,why should the devil
have all the good music?
You know, my question is,why should the devil be
the only one to talk about sex?
Exactly.
That's my question.
I mean, God invented it, so I.
Can we be creative in in gettingthat out there?
(33:33):
I love that that is encouraging.
And it's it's so practical.
I mean, really, it's like, God,you know, design sex.
And so we as the churchbody need to own that space
and not let the culture dictatewhat that looks like.
To our childrenand to our families.
Like we need to step in that.
And pastors and ministry leadershave a wonderful opportunity
(33:54):
to really be that, personto step in and do that.
So that's encouraging.
I love thattalk to us a little bit.
You know, we're comingto the end of today's episode,
and I want to kind of offersome encouragement,
whether it's a storythat you've seen personally,
a transformationyou've witnessed,
or maybe just somewords of encouragement and hope
that you can provideto those ministry
(34:14):
leaders, pastorsthat are listening,
or even just menthat are tuning in for
this episode as well.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, I well, like I said,I listen to a lot of podcasts
like this and there's a lot ofgreat ones and, and they all say
the same thing when askeda similar question.
And I just want to say it again,you're not alone.
(34:41):
Right.
I even just get emotionalto sing those simple words
because, because of how aloneI felt for so long and,
it cannot be said enough.
And, there's many menthat that are, there's
so many ministries outthere, there's churches
that do want to help.
(35:01):
And, I guess I guessmore in particular
the encouragementthat that there are,
there are people that are truethat are getting healed
or people who are putting thosebehind them, they're getting
traction.
I guess one encouragingthing for pastors, for churches
is that you don't have to,you don't have to
(35:22):
do this big thing.
You know, an event may seem likea big word.
But it's reallyquite simple in nature.
If you just, get guys together.
Here's how simple it worksfor a particular church.
That all but all kind of givean encouragement example of,
you know, they aren't very big,but another local person
(35:42):
doing it do that.
And because of our tablediscussion format, this allows
for other churchesto join churches and say,
hey, we'll bringa group of guys,
we'll bring our owntable leader.
So the pastor broughtlike five guys, five guys
from his church.
And, they had agreat discussion there.
One guy justjust said out loud, I'm,
(36:04):
I'm I feel hopeless.
I mean, that's the first timehe even shared his hopelessness
around this.
If you just sayingold words finally to another
two guys that at his church.
And so since thenthis is actually
a bilingual church.
Finally freecomes in in Spanish.
(36:24):
And so they purchasedthe Spanish version.
They have the English version.
So this pastor meets every week,every other week with,
the Hispanic group,every other week
with the English speaking group.
And he's discipling themlike he's been doing for years.
But he says now, Paul,there's not this elephant
in the room.
(36:44):
We can now bring this up.
We have a contextin which to do it.
We know that we're not alone.
And obviously there'sstill challenges to that,
because when there's setback,when we've maybe fallen again,
it takes that reminderthat we need to keep talking
about it.
You're you're stillnot where you were.
You may not be whereyou want to be, but you are.
(37:06):
You are gaining for,understanding of forgiveness.
You are processing this and,and so, perseverance,
I guess, would be other wordof encouragement.
You're not alone.
Persevere in this,because God is faithful.
He he will not letyou be tempted beyond what
you can bear.
But with the temptation,he will provide a way of escape.
(37:29):
And so the perseverancesays, oh, here's how
I could have escaped,but I didn't.
But next time I can't escapebecause I know God
provided a way.
And so learningfrom those things and talking
through them,and maybe someone else
seeing a way of escapethat you didn't see.
Right.
Yes.
(37:49):
Here's what you could have done.
Right.
Oh, yeah, I guess I couldhave texted you.
I didn't think about that.
So things like that.
Just perseverein a don't give up.
You're not alone.
Find that guy.
Find that person you trust.
I think you know, part of that80% of of of people.
(38:11):
I think men and women,they feel alone.
They don't feel likethey have someone they can trust
with this.
If they if you feel likethat's you,
there's always somebody,you know, we have a
getting help nowtab under our resources
on our website.
And, and that gives yousome places that you can go,
(38:33):
gives you the five pieceof pornography
that will help youjust initially attack
this thing and,but find and pray
for that personbecause they're there,
whether you think it or not,there's people in your life
that love you and care for youand will not, you know, they'll
not put up their hand and say,don't talk about that.
(38:54):
Absolutely.
And the the power of,you know, doing this
with other people,the community aspect
is so essentialto the recovery journey.
Oh my goodness.
Yeah.
That couldn'thave been said better.
That was a beautiful wayto bring today's
episode to a close.
I do want to make sureour listeners know
how to connectwith broken strength,
the path to parity.
(39:15):
So can you direct themto your website or your social
media tags wherever theycan find you,
so that we can put thosein the show notes as well?
Yeah.
Well, it's it'sjust the website.
So apathtopurity.orgis what it is.
If, if actually if youjust Google Broken Strength
that'll come upbecause we've kind of
(39:35):
we've reserved the termBrokn Strength as well.
So yeah.
You can connectwith us through there.
You can findwhere our events are.
You can actually, click on a tabthat says, I'd like to host
an event, and, and we'll getback to you.
And then, of course,there's the resources
where you can get help.
Now, links to other resources.
(39:59):
We're actually an affiliatewith Covenant Eyes.
So if you want to get CovenantEyes on your device,
go through our thingand we'll get a little kickback.
So we. Yeah.
So those sorts of resourcesare there as well
that we recommend.
Yeah. Yeah.
Thank you.
That's awesome.
Well, for our listeners,I think that's a pretty simple
(40:22):
but yet effectivecall to action.
So, you know,if you're a ministry
leader out there and you arelooking for a way to start
this conversation,this is a ministry that can help
you do that.
And so definitely check outthose links, listeners
in the show notes.
And for the men out therelistening, it sounds like
there are tonsof great resources for you
to get connected with,or even find
an event in your areawhere you can meet with
(40:44):
other menthat are on the journey
and hopefully on the pathto freedom with you.
So that's awesome.
Well Paul, it has been a delighthaving you on today.
Thank you for your passionto serve the church.
I think we need that and wewe need all hands on deck here
because this problemis not going away
and we have got to, engage.
We've got to get involvedand we've got to start having
(41:05):
better conversation.
So thank you to your ministry.
We pray thatyou guys continue to
to reach out and connectwith as many churches
as possible so that we canreally start a movement
in the church on this topic.
So thanks for joining us.
Amen. Around.
Yeah, yeah,we're in this together.
So yeah.
Absolutely.
Press forward.
Thank you.
(41:25):
Absolutely.
Well, listeners,thanks for tuning in
to this episodeof The Covenant Eyes Podcast.
We'll see you next time.
Take care. God bless.
Hey, everybody, welcome backto The Covenant Eyes Podcast.
We're so gladto have you joining us.
We've got anothergreat episode today,
and today's episodeis really going to be focused
on a ministry that is reallyserving the church
and serving themwell, and has a heart to help
the church addresssexual brokenness
that we are experiencingall across this country.
(00:27):
So today's guest,we have Paul Klassen.
Did I get that right?
Yeah, you did awesome.
Awesome.
We've got Paul joining us today.
He has got an amazingministry called Broken
Strength | A Path to Purity.
And Paul, would you mindjust telling our listeners
a little bitabout the origin story
of the ministryand just a little bit
about yourself as well?
(00:48):
Yeah, yeah.
Thanks, Karen.
Love, love being a part of this.
This was reallypart of my weekly, rhythm
is a Covenant Eyes podcast, and,Yeah, it's a privilege
to join you.
I, I'm, I've been marriedfor 34.5 years, to Becky, and,
we have six childrenfor adult kids and and to,
(01:11):
to still at home with us.
I've been a pastor,for 13 years.
And in the midst of that,had a mentor, who started
this ministry, actually startedbroken strength.
Joel Smith started itwith a group of volunteers,
a number of years ago.
And, eventually he's like,I need someone
to take over for me.
And he knew my story.
(01:32):
I have a I have a redemptionstory, Becky and I do.
And, and he said.
And I said, hey, how about me?
And he he's like, well, I didn'tthink about you,
but I don't want to call pastorsout of their church.
I want I want the Lordto do that.
I don't want to be the one whoinitiates that.
So anyway, that kind of ledto this.
(01:52):
And, so it's beenalmost two years now,
that I've beendoing this and pastored,
like I said, for about 12 yearsbefore that
and was a youth pastorbefore that, even,
and so the genesis ofthis really is, is, is a heart
for the local church.
And, and John particularseeing with his number of years
working with church leaders,that this was an issue
(02:13):
that just kept, keptcoming up over and over.
And he's like, wewe got to address this
in a very directand compassionate way,
and really help the churchkind of hold their hands
in that process.
And, and so that's his heartand that's, that's our heart.
Becky and I both, we didn'treally become public
(02:34):
about our storyuntil about 20 years
into into us talking about itafter my personal
20 year secret struggle.
So it's been quite a longwhile in the making.
And then when we decidedto be more public,
this the Lord just kindof led us to this, and
and it's a privilege.
Becky's, a partner in ministry,as she has been for years.
(02:57):
That's awesome.
And I love how God is usingyour brokenness and your story,
to really lift up this ministryand then be able to reach
into the church and helpministers and lay leaders
really address an issue that,frankly, is
one of the top issues.
I think our churchesare struggling with today.
So it's beautifulhow that worked out.
(03:19):
So talk to us a little bitabout the work that you're doing
because I think,oftentimes, you know, we
talk to pastorsand ministry leaders
all the time at Covenant Eyes,and it definitely
is a top concern.
You know, sexual brokenness,pornography use
is becoming an epidemicamong Christians.
I mean, the stats tell usthat seven over
70% of men, Christianmen and 44% of Christian
(03:42):
women are struggling now.
So this is really a big issue.
So talk to usa little bit about the the work
that you're doing with churchesspecifically and how you guys
are supporting them,because you have
kind of an approachthat you take
to help local churchesto correct.
Yeah, we do, we do.
It's it's churches aren't allover the board as far as where
(04:04):
they're at with this.
So we, we start with kind of,well, relationship.
I mean, we have, we're verymuch networked,
within our community.
I'm in I'm based in Minnesota.
I youth pastored in Arizona.
So I have some churches there.
Joe still has contactsaround the country
and different,association of churches.
(04:24):
So it's mainly word of mouth.
I mean, our only webpresence is our website,
and that's somewhat purposeful,that we just want
to draw people to thatand make word of mouth and,
our main way of doing itand, and, and so the way we,
the way we addressit is, again, we,
we fit it to the church,how we ask them,
(04:47):
how do you address this?
How often have you address thisfrom the pulpit?
A question we often ask is,the average
attender to your church,would they say that
that you guys careabout porn addiction?
Would they say thatyou guys talk about it
and are willing to address it?
Most churches would say,I don't think
our average attenderwould even know that
(05:08):
we think about it.
And so we kind of startwith that.
Some churches have groupsthat are maybe
even in the bulletin listed or,they have peer desire
groups or something.
And, but there's not awhole lot of people,
you know, there'smaybe in a large church,
there's maybe 11 guysin the group.
And I asked them, how many guysdo you think's wrong with this?
(05:30):
And, and obviously a lotmore than 11 guys
in a large churchstruggle with it.
And so we help populate,if you will, those groups that
are already goingand we do this through,
through an event,that is in person,
and that is includes,testimonies, Lord willing,
(05:51):
testimonies from the church,from guys that they already know
or even especially leaders,that that's even better.
If they don'tand we say we provide
a testimony, we getwe have plenty of guys
who are willing to traveland willing to say,
yeah, I'll come inand give my story,
but preferablya testimony from within.
And then,either Joe or I present,
(06:13):
like a 30 minute,you know, talk on the biblical.
You know, we don't have to talkabout the biblical view
of sex, necessarily.
Obviously,that's our foundation.
But we more talkabout our culture and, where
we're at in our culture.
Just a reallysober picture of it
and then a sober pictureof the fact
that they're not alone.
(06:35):
That's our main, our main focus.
You're not alone.
And we say why you're not alone.
You don't have to fight alone.
You alone are not the only oneaffected by this.
And so just reallytaking our time around a meal,
around tables.
So table discussionsis where we end our time
and we train up local,like the church,
(06:56):
some church people to lead thoseconversation at the table.
And then eventually we call themto a 3 or 4 week follow up
through the book Finally Free,by Heath Lambert.
That's kind of ourour go to a resource
that, churches just loveyou just does a great job
of starting with grace,and just talking through
(07:17):
just the basics ofand challenging men to,
to to do this with one another,in fellowship.
What true confessionis all those basic
biblical principleswith a counselor
at heart. Really?
Heath House?
So, that's kind of what we do.
And then we maintaincontact with the churches, after
that and, and, and helpthem along the way.
(07:40):
And I guess one final piece,Karen, is, is our prayer
is that a churchchampion would rise up in each
of these churches.
That it's usually a layleader is our goal.
Would say,hey, this is my passion.
I want this to be my ministry.
And so there are kindof our contact points
out, that churchthat the pastor doesn't
have to always be thinking aboutthis, that, that he has kind of
(08:00):
his go to, to updatethe elders, to, be a person
that can help othersthrough this process.
I love that, and that approachreally works.
Well, we've seen that timeand time again
where having a speakercome in often kind of it removes
some of the pressure from thethe local ministry leaders
(08:23):
where, you know, it might bean uncomfortable or a new topic.
But when you bring inan expert, right,
you bring in someonethat's got testimonies to share
and a story to share it really,you kind of de-escalate
the room a little bitand it opens people up,
and then you're ableto educate and empower.
So I love that model.
And I love theshared meal as well.
I think afteryou go through a tough
(08:44):
topic like that,where you really kind of
let people know, like the layof the land, the landscape,
the culture, you're not alone.
It's nice to kind of breakinto smaller groups and,
and just kind of engagewith one another
and reassure one anotherthat you are a band of brothers
or sisters in this together.
So I love that.
I love that approachthat you guys have.
So, you know, going backto your own story
(09:05):
and just kind ofhow it inspired you
to get involvedin this ministry.
I mean, you had been inyouth ministry, you had been
a senior pastor.
So obviously during that time,was the struggle happening
for you while you werein ministry?
And kind of what was thatbreaking point
that led you personallyto seek freedom?
And what what role didyour faith play in all of that?
(09:26):
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, man, that's sucha great question.
I was revealed to pornographyat the age of 12.
Which talking to numerous guys,it's amazing how.
Well, I mean, we know the stats,you know, anywhere from 8 to 13,
but 12 years old.
(09:46):
It's just amazing how that agejust kind of keeps coming up.
And, you know, it just reallygives us a heart for our junior
high leaders, right?
In our churches and,parents with junior high kids,
girls and boys.
You know, the school busis, is a big way
(10:06):
that people are revealed to it.
In fact, school school devices,unfortunately,
they have protections, but theythat's a lot of times where kids
first view it.
And so mine was a bus, olderkid just dropped
this magazine in my lap.
And, for the next 20 years,I just nobody knew.
And, and I didn't tell anybody,and it went from just lustful
(10:29):
thinking to fantasy lifeuntil it got to the point
where I was calling chat lines,and phone sex and,
obviously covering upthe first ten years
of my marriage.
The first three years,timing wise, of of ministry.
I was a junior high pastor,actually, and loved it.
And, and, you know,didn't have any
(10:52):
issues with youth per se,but I had this, this,
this thought lifethat was out of control.
And so, no, I, I did not decideto come forward.
I had decided, in fact,Karen, that I was going
to take this to my gravebecause I felt I had
enough under control, you know,so by God's sovereignty,
(11:17):
my wife, Becky, found a chargeon our phone, and she
almost argued with the personon the other line
saying, this is not our chargefrom our house.
She's like, this didn't happen.
This is a mistake.
And the person kept saying,no, it came from your house.
And then all of a suddenit clicked with my wife.
(11:37):
She's like, well,I guess it could have.
She never even dreamedthat anything like that
could ever be happening.
So that night, she confronted meand I for the first time,
Karen, in 20 years.
I actually toldanother human being
about what's going on.
Wow.
Obviously I didn'ttell her everything,
(11:58):
but I told her a lot,and I, this this dump truck
load of crap, basically,I just laid on my wife
that she had no idea existed.
So, you know, God's.
You talk about my faith and,my convictions.
I knew of God's love.
I knew of his grave,thought about it, received him
(12:23):
as my savior at a young age.
But it wasn't until.
Becky, we don't know how longit was between confession
and forgiveness.
Becky nor I.
Was it a daywas the three weeks.
I don't know, it was.
It was a horrible timein our marriage.
But yeah.
A beautiful time.
Because by the timeshe got to the point,
(12:44):
she sat me down and looked mein the face and told me exactly
what I had done to her,how it made her feel.
And, And she said,I forgive you.
Yeah.
The first timethat really forgiveness
had a face for me,if that makes sense.
(13:04):
Yeah.
Again, I knew ofGod's forgiveness, but that
journey to the heart,where I really, it really
captured me, was when my wifeactually did.
Because I, I was readyfor anything.
I was we never talkedabout divorce.
We knew that was off the table.
But separation,sleep in another room,
whatever I was, yeah,I would have
(13:26):
understood anything.
So that's reallywhere it hit me.
And then that was in the year2000, also the same year
that our first son was born.
And, God's like,you know what, Paul,
if you're not goingto come forward, you need to get
things straight.
If you're going to be leadingyour children and your son
in particular.
We've had two girlsalready and now boy and,
(13:49):
and, so, I would sayprayer for me,
my, my mom was prayingfor me from the day I was born.
She didn't knowthe fruit of that.
But the fact that Godbrought this recovery
start on and not meis a testament to God's
sovereignty and patienceand love for me.
(14:13):
And so that was a kindof the start of it for me,
but then not until20 years later,
after that, that Beckyand I actually feel like
we could be sharingthis more publicly.
And so and so that kind ofis a foundation
for my passion to,to get guys on the front
end of this. Right?
Hey, guys, we've been, 16years and old.
Older is what we tellour churches.
(14:35):
Any guys 16 yearsand older are ready
for this event.
And, and so we have tablesfull of 16 year olds
with their youth pastoror youth leader going through
this together.
And, it just thrills me to knowthat they're talking about this.
Whereas me and youth groupback in the late 80s.
(14:56):
Right.
It ain't happening.
You know, we're not right.
We're joking about it.
We're not talkingseriously about it.
So yeah.
And it's so important too,because I mean, like you
mentioned earlier,you were exposed at 12
and we know of kidsas young as eight, some even
younger than that,that are being exposed to this
(15:16):
graphic violent pornography.
And it shapes their worldview,it shapes them.
They interact with womengoing forward.
It certainly is impactful.
So for, you know,ministry leaders and for parents
specifically, like, we've got toengage our children
because unfortunately,there's not a good solution
(15:38):
to keep your kids insulatedbecause even with the
best protections,even with Covenant
Eyes installed, even with routerprotection, your children,
if they're going to schoollike you were on the bus
and exposed.
I mean, nowadays on the bus,every child has a smartphone.
And that is oneof the most common areas
for children to be exposed.
So I love that you guys really,set up, you know, youth
(16:01):
ministry leaders as well asthese teenagers and parents
and men and women really well,to get them to engage
in this topic.
And I thought you alsomentioned a really good point.
So one of the things that we'veencountered was, you know,
one of the setbacksfor pastors and ministry
leaders in addressingthis is oftentimes they may be
struggling themselveswith their own set of issues.
(16:24):
And so oftenwhen we are struggling with sin,
we don't feel qualified.
We don't want to talk aboutthat secret sin and help others
because we'restruggling ourselves.
Do you guys seeany of that in the work
that you're doingin the church as well?
Well, we we see it a little bitbecause, we do provide pathways
for pastors andchurch leaders to reach out.
(16:48):
We see it more so in that,in the unspoken,
churches that justdo not get back to us, churches
that don't pursue this, that saywe're not ready.
You know, obviouslyI'm making a lot of
assumptions here,but it's assumptions based on
a certain amount of historyand knowledge and research.
(17:13):
And so, what we've seen,like a particular pastor
that I'm working with now,you know, he had never
told anybody until about a yearor two ago.
And we startedhaving discussions,
and he's gaining freedom and,and and,
you know, two years ago,he would have said,
we're not even closeto talking about this
(17:33):
because I'm not ready.
Well, it didn't take too longfor him to say, you know what?
We're ready to talk about it.
Not because I havethis solved in my mind
or in my heart, or even inmy habits yet, but because I,
because I, I know that our menneed to talk about it,
and I don't have to sharemy whole testimony or even part
(17:54):
of my testimony for our men.
But I need at least I knowthe importance of it, and I can
share with themthat it is important.
And so just startingthe conversation
with the pastor, you know, Joe,Joe would have a question.
My predecessorand a good question
(18:15):
that he would ask pastorsbecause he'd meet with
lots of pastors.
One on one is, so tell me some.
Tell me about a, youryour viewing habits
on your device.
You know, just prettysimple question, right?
It doesn't take too longfrom that question.
And to seethe the body language,
(18:35):
when someone respondsto the question to know
what's going on there,is there even a little
bit of guilt aroundwhat you're viewing
on your device?
And so, that's just one one waythat we try to broach
that topic and, and leave it upto the pastor,
if you want to pursuethis, we're a safe place.
(18:55):
And so, yeah, I guess I think.
Does that answer your question?
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. No. It's good.
Yeah.
And I mean, the Barna statsdid some research on this,
I think back in 2016.
And I mean, 1in 5 ministry leaders, you know,
admitted to strugglingin this area.
It's not I mean it'snot a unique thing.
(19:16):
I mean we're all human.
And the sin certainly can touchany one of us.
So I think allthat was really good.
Let's talk a little bit aboutbecause you you work
with a lot of men who definitelyfeel trapped in this sexual sin.
So talk to me a little bitabout some of the misconceptions
that people carryinto this struggle.
And how does brokenstrength work to address that
(19:39):
with the guys?
Yeah, yeah.
Well, there'sthere's lots of them because,
so many of us do italone for so long.
We've fallen for so manydifferent lies and believe them.
But one that comes to mind isis one that I still battle.
And that's that's the ideathat this struggle, even the
(19:59):
blatant actsof disobedience to God,
it defines you as a person.
So about identity, about shame.
I think that's the biggestmisconception that we believe.
I know of God's love,as I mentioned earlier,
of his forgiveness.
(20:20):
But it really, I'm still workingthrough that.
I'm just realizing, evenjust recently,
that God's love for mehad an asterisk next to it.
Yes, God loves me, butI have this thing.
I'm different than everybody.
He loves me differentlythan everybody else
because of this.
(20:43):
So I think the message, themisconception of guys
that struggle with thisis that they're stuck,
that this is who they are.
This is the zoo.
They're always be this is a partof their DNA.
When in fact, God made us this,sexual beings.
That's part of our DNA.
And, and he did thatfor a reason.
For a good reason.
And it could be redeemed.
It can be healed.
(21:05):
And, it's it's part ofhow he works in us
and through usis through our weakness,
through our brokenness.
You know, broken strength,you know, comes from 2
Corinthians 12 (21:15):
9-10, when Paul talks about his own,
brokenness,his thorn in the flesh,
which we don't know what it isfor, probably a
very good reason.
He wants tocommunicate that that,
in our weakness, that'swhere we're strong.
And so if we can talk aboutand work through that and hear
(21:36):
each other's weaknesses,how much stronger, how much
more are we getting our strengthfrom the Lord?
So I guess that'sone misconception,
regarding men,in how they approach this.
I love how, David puts itpoetically.
We have this on ouron our bookmarks, we have these
(21:57):
bookmarks we, we give away and
and, Psalm 103 (21:59):
11-14.
If I could just read this,and it's kind of
a benchmark psalm for us.
For as highas the heavens are above
the earth, so great ishis steadfast love.
His has said love toward thosewho fear him.
As far as the East is fromthe West so far, does he remove
(22:21):
our transgressions from us?
Do we really believe thatit's true, as the father
shows compassionto his children?
So the Lord shows compassionto those who fear him.
And I love this.
Verse 14 For he knows our frame.
He remembers that we are dust.
He knows how mortal we are.
He knows how out we are.
Just sing again.
(22:42):
But yet he continuesto forgive us over
and over again.
And, And so that's our identity.
That's who we are.
We're defined by his love.
We're not defined by our sin.
And it's easier said thandone, for sure.
But that's what we want tocontinue to break down.
And that's whywe need to continue
to talk about it over and overand over again.
(23:04):
Absolutely. Yeah.
And I love that verse.
Oh so good, so good.
You know, pornography isone of those it's a sin
that really thrivesin that secrecy.
And the shame elementis really something that holds
so many people back fromconfessing the sin
and seeking help and restorationfrom that.
So from your perspective,how can the church do better?
(23:27):
I mean, obviously we've talkedabout some ways, you know,
having a speaker come inand talking about the issue,
but how can the churchdo better supporting
individual men who aresilently wrestling
with this issue and maybe aren'tready to come forward?
We've talked abouta couple of ways.
Are there other thingsthat they can do to support men?
And I would even say women,because we know that
(23:47):
the statistics don't liewhen it comes to women, too.
Absolutely. Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, our bandwidth right nowas a ministry is
really focused on men.
My wife is, is,getting training,
and she has a heart for women,women who've been betrayed.
But also, even thoughshe's never struggled,
(24:09):
she's getting some training,you know, she recovery,
is a great resource for that.
And they're actually startinga new training
certificate, there.
And she's going to participatein that.
And so it's definitelyon our radar for sure.
But as far as a church goes,well, what we try to
(24:31):
talk about with them is, ishow how is your church
as far as theconfessional community
is concerned?
How how transparent are your leaders,
your leaders of women,your leaders of men,
your leaders ofthe church overall,
how transparent are they?
Not even necessarily about theirsexuality, but,
(24:53):
how, you know, exampleI get when I was a youth,
when I was in high school,we were in a large church
in the Phoenix area.
And the pastor, great pastor,I mean, great communicator.
And he did something veryyou probably think he thought
it was very little, but it wasvery impactful for me
as a teenager, as he,he gave an illustration.
He said, I was atthe grocery store
(25:14):
with my wife and and, or.
No, he said,someone came up to me
in church and said,I saw you with your wife
at the grocery store.
And, you know, from the pulpit.
He said, myfirst thought was, oh,
no, what was I doing?
Where are we arguing?
What was I looking at?
Another woman.
What was I doing?
And and just for himto saying that
(25:36):
that's what he thought.
Just really, brought it downto the earth.
As far as leaders, pastorsget put on pedestals
way, way to, unfairly,if I could say that.
But pastors, we oftentimeswe do that to ourselves
because we're not really,sharing things from up front.
(26:00):
And so how are you as a church?
Creating that atmosphere.
And I thinkone key part in that is,
how are you doingcommunion together?
Are you doing itin such a way that that you're
allowing space for confession,you're allowing space
for really someand giving examples
of what that looks likeand what people do
(26:20):
struggle with.
That's a perfect time to do it,because that's
why we have it, right.
We it's a memorial of,of of Christ dying for our sins,
even for those that we committedthat morning.
And and to confessthat and to get cleansed
from that sin.
And and so that's avery practical way to do it.
(26:42):
But then also to providemany opportunities, you know,
within women's groups, withinmen's groups,
at the youth group, forfor leaders to model
that transparency.
And I think that'sone of the biggest
practical thingsthey could do on a regular basis
to keep that in front of peoplethat, hey, we were all there.
(27:03):
We're all together.
I love that.
I love that concept because Imean, really, you know, that's
one of the the things I oftenhave seen in, in churches
where, you know, wewe all go there,
we kind of paint the good faceon, you know, everything's fine.
How how are you doing,Sister Karen?
Oh, everything's great.
You know, we don't reallywant to share all of the,
(27:25):
the the deep, dark secrets.
And obviously, you shouldn'tshare those with everybody
that comes up to you and askshow you're doing.
But we we also justput on these fronts.
And so, you know, makingyour congregation a place where
confession of sins,no matter how small or big,
because at the end of the day,they're all thin against the
the God that we serve.
Right?
And so having that kind ofculture created, I think, is
(27:48):
a beautiful way to really allowfor people the space,
whether it's pornography,you know what any whatever our,
our sin of choiceis, we can confess
that regularlyand take that seriously.
I think that creatingthat culture is so impactful.
I love that concept.
Yeah.
And even even though we areconfessing regularly and you're
(28:09):
also forgiven regularly.
Yes.
And that's communicated to rightthat yes, both am and
and the lesswe confess, guess what.
The less that thatthat forgiveness
will take place.
It's a it's a promisefrom Scripture.
So the better we are.
If you want to usethat term, the better
we are confessing, the betterwe are receiving forgiveness
(28:30):
and understanding it.
And I the local churchis a great place
for that to happen.
Absolutely.
And confessing to one another,you know, there's something
powerful in that,like sharing that
with someone else.
There's an accountabilityto that as well,
in the forgiveness also.
So I love that.
That's a great recommendation.
So let's kind of goback to the journey
(28:52):
that men's specifically,you know, as
they go through recoveryor even just the
the beginning stages of recoverywhen they acknowledge
that, you know,they have a brokenness,
there's differentstages to that.
And what's the one thingthat you wish pastors understood
about ministering to someonein that brokenness?
Because, you know, it's notalways something that I think
(29:14):
pastors are trained for.
Some are, but some are not.
They're not equippedand they don't know
how to walk with menthrough this, this journey.
So talk to usa little bit about that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's not it's not it'snot a class in seminary.
Yeah I've heard that.
Yes.
Or or even.
Yeah.
Or even a topic in your pastorscluster that you get together
(29:36):
with other pastors.
Yeah.
So yeah, this is anotheranother great question.
And I can tell you that,they interact with other people
and with pastors who have donewell on this and not so well.
You know, if every pastorhas an opportunity,
to help someone, and indeedthat Barna study the recent one,
(30:00):
I think 75% of pastorssaid that they are currently
helping someone.
Right?
Person.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I think it's safe to saythat 100% of pastors
will be helpingsomeone at some point
in their ministry.
I think it's pretty safe to say,but if every one of them
(30:22):
would be able to haveactually have
the compassion of Christfor them, and understand
how much woundednessand insecurities are behind
the struggle that they seeon the surface,
there's deep seeded liesthat they've been convinced
of, you know,kind of what we talked
about already, misconceptionsthat we have as men.
(30:44):
I mean, 20 years ofsecretly struggling, I'm still
recovering frombeing defined by that
is it's still a process.
And so and so,for pastors to not look at the,
the end product, not just totry to get them off of porn.
Yes. That's important.
(31:04):
And protections.
And, you know,I'm a, I'm one of your,
your lifelong members.
When you guys offeredthat, I'm like, I'm all right,
give it to me.
I don't have to pay every monthnow, which is cool.
And, so I totally love that.
And that's needed, but also theand the and of
(31:25):
of dive into that.
Why are we brokeand what is happen
and to for pastorsto build that compassion even in
their own hearts.
You think about Jesusand his compassion for the woman
at the well,his compassion for the,
anointing his feet and and,the woman anointing his feet is
(31:46):
compassion for, you know,even Nicodemus, he saw beneath,
the Pharisees stuffthat Nicodemus was I mean, he
he had compassionfor all these people.
And, if pastors could actuallydive into them
and know that there'sso much underneath
(32:07):
the surface stuffthat's being confessed
or that I got, or whatever,you know, by default
we communicate to the churchthat sex is, is dirty.
I think we communicatethat mainly by putting that
in the freight in the context ofsexual immorality.
How bad our culture is,you know, look how far away
(32:29):
our culture has gotten.
And so and so we by defaulttalk about that.
And so I guess the other thingwould be to just
how are we communicatingthe beauty of sex
at the same point?
Appropriate obviously, butbut just as much, if not more of
the other side of the, of thedirty side of it,
(32:50):
which unfortunately, ismost of what we see.
As we know, pornography hasbecome more and more violent
and more and more,invasive to and, I mean, it's
all not what Godintended for sex to be.
And, so we can get a lotof the beauty part of them,
(33:12):
if I can use aa Larry Norman counselor
from the 70s, you know,why should the devil
have all the good music?
You know, my question is,why should the devil be
the only one to talk about sex?
Exactly.
That's my question.
I mean, God invented it, so I.
Can we be creative in in gettingthat out there?
(33:33):
I love that that is encouraging.
And it's it's so practical.
I mean, really, it's like, God,you know, design sex.
And so we as the churchbody need to own that space
and not let the culture dictatewhat that looks like.
To our childrenand to our families.
Like we need to step in that.
And pastors and ministry leadershave a wonderful opportunity
(33:54):
to really be that, personto step in and do that.
So that's encouraging.
I love thattalk to us a little bit.
You know, we're comingto the end of today's episode,
and I want to kind of offersome encouragement,
whether it's a storythat you've seen personally,
a transformationyou've witnessed,
or maybe just somewords of encouragement and hope
that you can provideto those ministry
(34:14):
leaders, pastorsthat are listening,
or even just menthat are tuning in for
this episode as well.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, I well, like I said,I listen to a lot of podcasts
like this and there's a lot ofgreat ones and, and they all say
the same thing when askeda similar question.
And I just want to say it again,you're not alone.
(34:41):
Right.
I even just get emotionalto sing those simple words
because, because of how aloneI felt for so long and,
it cannot be said enough.
And, there's many menthat that are, there's
so many ministries outthere, there's churches
that do want to help.
(35:01):
And, I guess I guessmore in particular
the encouragementthat that there are,
there are people that are truethat are getting healed
or people who are putting thosebehind them, they're getting
traction.
I guess one encouragingthing for pastors, for churches
is that you don't have to,you don't have to
(35:22):
do this big thing.
You know, an event may seem likea big word.
But it's reallyquite simple in nature.
If you just, get guys together.
Here's how simple it worksfor a particular church.
That all but all kind of givean encouragement example of,
you know, they aren't very big,but another local person
(35:42):
doing it do that.
And because of our tablediscussion format, this allows
for other churchesto join churches and say,
hey, we'll bringa group of guys,
we'll bring our owntable leader.
So the pastor broughtlike five guys, five guys
from his church.
And, they had agreat discussion there.
One guy justjust said out loud, I'm,
(36:04):
I'm I feel hopeless.
I mean, that's the first timehe even shared his hopelessness
around this.
If you just sayingold words finally to another
two guys that at his church.
And so since thenthis is actually
a bilingual church.
Finally freecomes in in Spanish.
(36:24):
And so they purchasedthe Spanish version.
They have the English version.
So this pastor meets every week,every other week with,
the Hispanic group,every other week
with the English speaking group.
And he's discipling themlike he's been doing for years.
But he says now, Paul,there's not this elephant
in the room.
(36:44):
We can now bring this up.
We have a contextin which to do it.
We know that we're not alone.
And obviously there'sstill challenges to that,
because when there's setback,when we've maybe fallen again,
it takes that reminderthat we need to keep talking
about it.
You're you're stillnot where you were.
You may not be whereyou want to be, but you are.
(37:06):
You are gaining for,understanding of forgiveness.
You are processing this and,and so, perseverance,
I guess, would be other wordof encouragement.
You're not alone.
Persevere in this,because God is faithful.
He he will not letyou be tempted beyond what
you can bear.
But with the temptation,he will provide a way of escape.
(37:29):
And so the perseverancesays, oh, here's how
I could have escaped,but I didn't.
But next time I can't escapebecause I know God
provided a way.
And so learningfrom those things and talking
through them,and maybe someone else
seeing a way of escapethat you didn't see.
Right.
Yes.
(37:49):
Here's what you could have done.
Right.
Oh, yeah, I guess I couldhave texted you.
I didn't think about that.
So things like that.
Just perseverein a don't give up.
You're not alone.
Find that guy.
Find that person you trust.
I think you know, part of that80% of of of people.
(38:11):
I think men and women,they feel alone.
They don't feel likethey have someone they can trust
with this.
If they if you feel likethat's you,
there's always somebody,you know, we have a
getting help nowtab under our resources
on our website.
And, and that gives yousome places that you can go,
(38:33):
gives you the five pieceof pornography
that will help youjust initially attack
this thing and,but find and pray
for that personbecause they're there,
whether you think it or not,there's people in your life
that love you and care for youand will not, you know, they'll
not put up their hand and say,don't talk about that.
(38:54):
Absolutely.
And the the power of,you know, doing this
with other people,the community aspect
is so essentialto the recovery journey.
Oh my goodness.
Yeah.
That couldn'thave been said better.
That was a beautiful wayto bring today's
episode to a close.
I do want to make sureour listeners know
how to connectwith broken strength,
the path to parity.
(39:15):
So can you direct themto your website or your social
media tags wherever theycan find you,
so that we can put thosein the show notes as well?
Yeah.
Well, it's it'sjust the website.
So apathtopurity.orgis what it is.
If, if actually if youjust Google Broken Strength
that'll come upbecause we've kind of
(39:35):
we've reserved the termBrokn Strength as well.
So yeah.
You can connectwith us through there.
You can findwhere our events are.
You can actually, click on a tabthat says, I'd like to host
an event, and, and we'll getback to you.
And then, of course,there's the resources
where you can get help.
Now, links to other resources.
(39:59):
We're actually an affiliatewith Covenant Eyes.
So if you want to get CovenantEyes on your device,
go through our thingand we'll get a little kickback.
So we. Yeah.
So those sorts of resourcesare there as well
that we recommend.
Yeah. Yeah.
Thank you.
That's awesome.
Well, for our listeners,I think that's a pretty simple
(40:22):
but yet effectivecall to action.
So, you know,if you're a ministry
leader out there and you arelooking for a way to start
this conversation,this is a ministry that can help
you do that.
And so definitely check outthose links, listeners
in the show notes.
And for the men out therelistening, it sounds like
there are tonsof great resources for you
to get connected with,or even find
an event in your areawhere you can meet with
(40:44):
other menthat are on the journey
and hopefully on the pathto freedom with you.
So that's awesome.
Well Paul, it has been a delighthaving you on today.
Thank you for your passionto serve the church.
I think we need that and wewe need all hands on deck here
because this problemis not going away
and we have got to, engage.
We've got to get involvedand we've got to start having
(41:05):
better conversation.
So thank you to your ministry.
We pray thatyou guys continue to
to reach out and connectwith as many churches
as possible so that we canreally start a movement
in the church on this topic.
So thanks for joining us.
Amen. Around.
Yeah, yeah,we're in this together.
So yeah.
Absolutely.
Press forward.
Thank you.
(41:25):
Absolutely.
Well, listeners,thanks for tuning in
to this episodeof The Covenant Eyes Podcast.
We'll see you next time.
Take care. God bless.
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