May 14, 2025 • 41 mins
In this powerful episode of the Covenant Eyes Podcast, hosts Karen Potter and Sam Black sit down with Nate Larkin—founder of the Samson Society and author of Samson and the Pirate Monks. Nate shares his raw, redemptive journey from secret struggles with porn and sex addiction to freedom, healing, and authentic brotherhood.
Discover how early exposure, emotional pain, and ministry stress fueled Nate’s addiction, and how community, honesty, and spiritual growth led him to lasting transformation. Learn how the Samson Society creates spaces for real connection and why it’s never too late to seek help.
Whether you're in the middle of your own battle or walking alongside someone who is, this conversation is full of truth, grace, and hope.
👉 Don't miss: Nate’s advice on rebuilding trust in marriage, the impact of betrayal trauma on spouses, and how technology can both hurt and heal.
đź”— Explore:
Samson Society: https://samsonsociety.com/
Sarah Society: https://sarahsociety.com/
Victory App & Courses: https://cvnteyes.co/41YU8Od
Chapters:
00:00 – Welcome & Introductions
01:10 – Who is Nate Larkin?
02:10 – Nate’s Early Exposure & Hidden Struggle
05:20 – Addiction in Ministry & the Breaking Point
08:30 – The Turning Point: “I’m Done.”
10:00 – Birth of the Samson Society
11:20 – Why Brotherhood & Connection Matter
13:30 – Shame, Grandiosity & the Performance Trap
17:00 – The Power of Authentic Community
20:00 – Technology: A Double-Edged Sword
21:15 – In-Person Retreats & Deep Relationships
23:00 – From Disconnection to Emotional Intimacy
25:00 – Redeeming Church Community
28:00 – Betrayal Trauma & the Spouse’s Journey
30:00 – The Sarah Society: Healing for Wives
32:00 – Marriages Can Heal – But Recovery Is Personal
34:00 – Practical Advice for Men & Spouses
37:00 – Hope, Freedom & Where to Get Help
39:00 – Final Encouragements & Resources
#CovenantEyes #NateLarkin #SamsonSociety #SarahSociety #AddictionRecovery #PornAddiction #SexAddiction
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
Hey, everybody, welcome backto The Covenant Eyes Podcast.
It's Karen, and I'm so gladthat you are here.
Joining us for this episode.
We have a longtimefriend joining us, actually two
longtime friends.
One works at CovenantEyes and Sam.
We go way back.
I feel like we're. Yeah.
Oh, geez.
Nowadays, right.
There's a whole new generationto cover the eyes.
But we've been herequite a while,
(00:27):
and you've been herea lot longer than me.
But welcome to the podcast.
It's so good to beco-hosting with you today.
Yeah, I'm looking forwardto this conversation.
We get to talk to one of ourlongtime friends.
So we've got, we've gone onhikes together
and a lot of other fun stuff.
So Nate Larkin,founder of the Sans,
the Society, welcome.
(00:47):
Glad you're here.
Oh, thanksso much for having me.
This is a joy.
Listen, I'mgoing to just introduce
a little bit, read a little bitof your bio about who you are
just to help our listenersknow what, know
a little more about you.
Nate Larkin is the founderof the Samson Society
and the author of Samsonand the Pirate Monks.
This is a great book.
(01:08):
I highly, highly recommend it.
He is a graduate of SaintLawrence University
and PrincetonTheological Seminary.
He's also a recovering pornand sex addict.
In 1998, Nate finally found helpfor his sex addiction
in the safetyof a 12 step group.
As of 2024, more than 600local society
(01:30):
groups have started,and thousands of men from around
the world are attendingdaily online meetings
at Samson Society.
Dot org need is apopular speaker at conferences.
Love to hear you speak man.
You are thegreatest storyteller.
I love to hear your stories.
He speaks at collegesand retreats and is the co-host
(01:51):
of two podcasts,The Pirate Monk Podcast
and the PositiveSobriety Podcast.
He and his wife, Ali recentlycelebrated their 45th
wedding anniversary.
Congratulations.
And they live in MountPleasant, Tennessee.
Thanks, Sam.
What a what a nice introductionfor me.
For the listenersout there, obviously
your bio speaks volumesto the amount of
(02:13):
work that you do.
I mean, you are everywhereand you are helping so many men,
but let's kind ofgo back in time a little bit.
For the listeners that maybearen't familiar with your story,
can you share a little bit ofyour journey and what led
you to actually startthe Samson Society,
which has helpedso many men? Yeah.
Well, I was raised in church.
(02:35):
My dad was a preacher,and I was destined
for the ministryfrom a very early age.
And I was a good kid.
Except when I wasn'tand when I wasn't, the penalties
were severe, so I learnedearly on to hide,
and to perform.
We never talkedabout sex at home.
That was a taboo subject.
Never heard about it in church.
(02:56):
Nobody warned methat porn even existed
until I ran into itaround the age of ten,
shortly aftermy mother had died.
This is a long time ago.
This is backwhen in Playboy era.
But the Playboywas more than enough
and the fire was lit.
So I wrestled with,I felt a lot of guilt and shame,
you know, quit a thousand times,wrestled all
(03:18):
through adolescence.
When I got to college, Idecided to become sophisticated.
It was time to stopfeeling guilty.
Time to join the modern world.
I needed sexeducation desperately.
And I thought, what better placeto get it? The porn.
I didn't know any better.
I actually rationalized my pornuse during my college years
(03:38):
as preparation for marriage,unaware that I was already
poisoning my marriage.
But I was certainthat when I met the right girl
and got married, that naturallymy interest in porn
would disappear.
What I didn't understandwas that by then,
porn had already become pornand masturbation.
My default distressmanagement strategy.
(04:01):
So whenever I was in distress,that's what I went to
for comfort.
Emotional regulation.
Well, I did meetthe perfect girl.
We got marriedthe day I graduated.
I was deeply in love.
But as it turns out,marriage is stressful.
So it wasn't too longafter the honeymoon that that
the problem reappeared,which was very discouraging.
(04:23):
But what I told myself then was,you know, Nate, porn is
probably your best defenseagainst infidelity.
No way you're ever going tocheat on your wife.
You meant it.
Every promiseyou made at the altar.
So come to think of it,you're probably
being considerate,not burdening Ali with all your
sexual needs.
(04:44):
She just doesn't need to knowhow considerate you're being.
But alreadythat porn use was coming
between Ali and me.
Even though she didn'tknow what I was doing,
she could see me drifting awayemotionally as I am
bonding daily with phantoms,and and brightness.
So by this pointnow, porn is programing
(05:06):
me, grooming me, setting me upfor the next stage.
It was a processthat accelerated.
Ironically, during seminary,I went on a seminary
sponsored tripinto New York City, into the sex
shops of Time Square.
I got my firstlook at hardcore porn.
I did not realize at that pointhow much more powerful
(05:28):
those moving images are thanthe still images
I'd been using upuntil that point.
Because film is immersive,it reaches a part of the brain,
that can't distinguishbetween real experience
and virtual experience.
So now it's as though I'msitting in a simulator every day
and it takes a few years.
But fast forwardabout six years.
(05:49):
We're now in South Florida,in in a period of white
knuckling abstinencethat I thought was recovery
and victory,I'd started a church.
I was a church planter.
Somehow the pastor,and I don't know
if you know this, Karen,but church can be stressful.
(06:11):
So not too long afterwe planted the church,
the problem, you know,reared its head again.
So I was very careful.
I was never caught,but I was using porn
on a regular basis.
And this is before the internet.
So it's it's adultbookstores back in the day.
(06:31):
And then aboutthree and a half years
in, four yearsinto the ministry, it got worse.
And on a very fatefulChristmas Eve,
I pulled over to offer a womana ride out of the rain,
not knowing what she was doinguntil she was in the car
and propositioning me.
And that is when the programingkicked in, because I'd seen
some version of that scenariocountless times and I went
(06:55):
full automatic.
That was awful.
Just off.
I couldn't believe I'd done it.
The guilt, the shame,just crushing,
but I also believedI couldn't tell anybody.
You know, my ministrywould be finished if I did.
I had to figure it out myself.
I worked really hardto try to figure it out.
(07:16):
And about a yearand a half later,
I finally gave up in despairbecause I could not
stop the behavior.
So I quit.
The ministry at the ripeold age of 30,
went into business where I hadthe great misfortune to succeed.
So now I've got moneyand no accountability.
And that's when it reallywhat got dark.
Although I never missed church,I loved church and church.
(07:40):
I could be Saint Nate and serveyou church.
I could be the guyI wanted to be on.
The guy who I thought God loves.
I just couldn't be that guyfor very long.
Outside the building.
And that was just horrible.
But, I have a praying wife.
She was so it was not easy.
(08:00):
I was not an easy guyto be married to.
Running to lives.
All that stress, all thatdeception, all those
unexplained absences,all the money that was
going out the door.
In 1998, we made the movefrom South Florida
to Middle Tennessee.
And it was shortly after thatmove that Ali caught me,
(08:23):
first with porn.
And then not long after that,she found a condom on the floor
in the bathroom that I couldn'tquite explain.
And that's when my wifesat me down
on the edge of our bed and saidthe words that saved my life.
She said, I'm done.
She said, I still love you,but I don't like you.
(08:44):
I don't trust you,I don't respect you,
and I don't thinkyou can ever change.
Those were the wordsthat gave me the gift
of desperation.
It was in a desperate attemptto salvage
the only real friendshipI'd known in adulthood, that I.
That I finally went for help.
And I'm so gratefulthat I found help first in a 12
(09:05):
step group.
And then, you know,it took about six years
to finally, you know,learn the fundamentals
of recoveryand get some stability
in my sobriety.
By then, I'd lost my shame.
I actually told my pastorand gave him my phone number
and permission to pass italong to anybody.
(09:25):
He thoughtI might be able to help.
And right away, my phonestarted to ring because,
as it turns out,I'm far from unique.
All those years, I thought I wasthe only guy.
So before I know it, I'm walkingwith a dozen guys.
All of us Christians.
And really, as we beganto experience
(09:47):
the fruit of recoveryand what happens when we
walk together in the light,we really wanted to
be able to integrateour Christian faith,
vocabulary and heritagewith this amazing recovery walk.
And that's when I met my wife.
Suggestion, actually, we startedthe Samson Society.
That was in 2004,on Valentine's Day 2004.
(10:10):
So we're two daysaway from the 21 year
anniversary of the founding,and the fact that
a dozen of us were freeon Valentine's Day
kind of shows where we,where we were, Ali
was more than willingto let me go be with the guys
because she'd seenthe fruit of recovery.
And some of those guys,the wife didn't
(10:31):
want to see him anyway,or they weren't.
At any rate, but it grewvery quickly.
We got excited.
We got so excited.
In 2007, we put out the bookthat Sam referenced,
Samson and the Pirate Monks,hoping to inspire other guys
to do somethinglike what we were doing.
And it's been a rocket rideever since.
Wow.
Your testimony each time I hearit is just so powerful.
(10:55):
And the way that Godhas used your brokenness
to bring about an organizationthat has helped so many guys
find freedom and connectionand community.
And I think we don't, I don't,and I think we do it
at Covenant Eyes.
But in general, we don't talkabout the need and the absolute
biblical mandateto be in community
(11:17):
and connection with one anotherin the body.
There's something so powerfulabout believers being together
on the journey.
Talk to us a little bit aboutwhy it's so important,
and why that's kindof the secret sauce
of the Samson Society,the brotherhood
that's created there.
Yeah, it all boilsdown to attachment.
I am more and more convincedthat character
(11:39):
change does not come,biological means through the
left hemisphere of the brain.
That slow thinking, logical partcharacter change happens,
on the limbic level.
It happens in the righthemisphere of the brain,
and it happensthrough attachment.
We have to be connected.
It's absolutely true.
The opposite of addictionis connection.
(12:01):
Recovery requires relationship.
That's not the messageI wanted to hear.
When I walked into my first12 step meeting.
I was not looking for friendsand I did not want
to join a group.
I was therefor research purposes.
My goal was to setthe land speed
record for recovery,and I was going to do
do so by independent,you know, study.
(12:22):
I'm a smart guy.
I'm going to masterthe material.
I will admit,I was selling recovery
long before I owned it,because I'd learned the lingo.
But I did not begin, actually,to experience
true sexual sobrietyuntil finally,
after enough failure,enough phase plans
when willpowerjust wouldn't do it.
(12:45):
When my best when Iwhen I was acting out
of out and acting out.
I'm acting outsidemy own moral guidelines
and my own moral convictions.
And doing that enough times,I finally surrendered and said,
okay, it's time to jointhe human race.
I'm not unique.
(13:05):
I need to learn to bejust another bozo on the bus.
I need to be as willingto take advice
as I am to give advice,is willing to ask for
help as I am to give help,to become a man among
men, a member of the body,and at I am now more and more
(13:26):
aware of the realityof the body of Christ.
I was always willingto trust Christ. Right.
This man Jesus thing,never willing to trust the body
of Christ.
In fact, I didn't even believein the body of Christ.
I thought that was justa metaphor.
I did not believe thatJesus is present on this planet
(13:49):
in the lives of broken people.
But I want to tell you,I believe it today.
And the greatestact of surrender that I make
every day is to tell the truthto another member
of the body of Christ.
And that's what Samsondoes there a lot.
You know, Samson doesn'tdo everything.
You know, we're not therapists,although we interview
(14:11):
therapists all the time.
And some therapists are membersof Samson Society.
We don't do curriculum.
You guys do great curriculum.
I'm part of a Pure Desire group.
They have createdgreat curriculum.
Samson doesn't do that.
But the one thing we dois we do connection.
It's a safe place where you canbring your real self,
say the real truth,and make real,
(14:33):
authentic connectionwith other people,
come out of hiding.
And then as we startto experience mutual
mind with one anotherand mutual mind
with the indwelling Christ,mysteriously, mystically,
sometimes just in baffling ways,character change
starts to happen, old desiresfade and new desires
(14:56):
start to rise.
It's a it's a healing process.
It's a growing process.
It's a learning process.
And, by the way, the key word inall three phrases is process.
None of this is instantaneous.
It takes time.
We have to stay engaged.
You know, Nate, I lovewhat you're saying.
As as you tell yourthe whole story
(15:17):
and up into the present,it is not unique to you
or to me, to otherswho are listening.
The story isis so common, right.
It's the early exposure.
Yeah, yeah.
The repetitioususe of pornography and some
unsettled wounds that we've justnever dealt with. Well.
(15:37):
Right.
And, and so we'rejust become susceptible
to all these triggersand emotions and self-soothing
and then, but we've got itall figured out, right?
I just try harderif I, you know, and and
there's somethingI'd like you to explore.
Yeah.
About me.
(15:58):
And I was going to church.
That's one thingI could do. Yeah.
And that is that shameand grandiosity,
that's all. On the.
That's just the same emotionin different spheres.
Tell me about how grandiositycould help you feel
less of the shame in thatthe shame would lead you toward
(16:18):
grandiosity. Right.
Oh absolutely.
And by the waythat's a temptation
that has not disappearedin recovery.
I'm always beingpulled back toward living a
an honest, transparentand right sized life.
You know what, Sam?
Thank you for that.
Nobody's ever madethat connection for me.
That that shame and grandiosityare on a spectrum.
(16:41):
That's that's a fascinatingand very valuable insight.
So, yeah, if, I,I want to tell you, I had a
wonderful reputation as a pastorand the the, the
the deeper my shame,and the blacker and more hidden
my sense of failure,the more I compensated by being,
(17:04):
even more, present, patientand merciful.
At least I was trying to do.
And, tooting my own horn,producing my own press releases,
really trying to belarger than life and
trying to be everythingto everybody.
One of the capson my ministry, I, my, my church
(17:24):
peaked at about 150 people.
One of the reasonsit peaked was, I had to be
everybody's best friend.
Now, here's the here'sthe toughest thing.
When, when,And of course, I wasn't,
but I was workingvery hard at that.
By the time I got into recovery,I really had to face
(17:47):
the fact that, my problemwas not a lack of information.
My problem was a lackof a relationship.
I was well known.
I had a lot of peoplein my Rolodex.
People knew meor thought they knew me
and liked me.
They named their kids after me.
There were a lot of peoplewho would call me
their closest friend.
(18:08):
I was well known,but nobody knew me.
And even the affirmationthat I got
from all those people, well,it felt good in
the in the moment.
It was so fleeting, it reallyevaporated quickly.
I because deep inside,I knew they weren't
seeing the real me.
And I deeply believed thatif they or anybody
(18:31):
ever saw the realme, they would run.
So I had to perform.
That was what was so fantasticand frightening about going down
into the churchbasement for my first
12 step meeting,because there was a place
where I didn't have tospeak in code.
I didn't have topretty anything up.
(18:52):
Nobody wanted to meetSaint Nate.
I was welcome to to meet.
I was welcometo bring the real me.
And to begin, I did itcautiously
and carefully at first,you know, saying,
it was just so hardto say the words, I'm
a porn addict or a sex addict,that I'm a recovering
port addict.
I mean, I claim that, right?
(19:14):
And even thatI could only say it
as a whisper.
So hard to begin to own my own.
You know what the 12 stepperswould call my character defects.
The ways in which my personalityhas been warped by wounds
and by my own behavior.
But every time I venturedinto the light,
(19:34):
I was, I was met.
I was met with grace.
People didn't pull away.
They pulled in.
And now I find that actuallythe real me, the broken me,
is more attractivethan the bright and shiny me.
And it can actually accomplisha whole lot more
because the real me is capableof real relationship, where
(19:57):
the artificial meis only capable of surface
relationships.
That is so beautifuland so true.
I think about our society now.
I mean, we really livein a digital age
where everybody createspersonas online.
We craft our our livesand our social media feeds
so that the worldcan admire our vacations
(20:18):
and our familiesand whatever else we're really
well connected.
And I use thatin quotation marks
because we feel likewe're being connected
with people,but really we're not.
And we're not letting peoplesee the authentic, real us.
And so I thinkthere's a real danger,
like technology providesgreat opportunity, like people
use technology to join SamsonSociety groups.
(20:41):
And, you know, we use technologyat Covenant Eyes.
Obviously,to help people overcome
pornography addiction.
But there's a dangerthat it gives us a false sense
of connectivity.
Really, we can't get awayfrom that in person,
being togetherwith other people.
Talk to me a little bitabout how some Samson Society
helps men specificallyfacilitate relationships,
(21:05):
you know, in the real worldbecause, yeah, they're
connecting online.
But I know you guysare driving them back
to building outtheir inner circle
in the real world, correct?
Yeah, absolutely.
Although I must tell youthat I've been surprised
and impressed by the degreeto which the depth
to which relationshipscan form through,
(21:27):
electronic connection.
We do our annualnational retreat, in the fall,
usually in November.
And the favorite part,my favorite part of that retreat
is watching guys hugtheir best friend
for the first time.
But I, by the way, Nate,I've done that time.
Oh, yeah.
Of course, you know,coming to the the conference
in Tennessee.
(21:47):
Yeah, yeah.
Here's guysthat I've been meeting
with online since 3 or 4 years,and this is the first time
we've actually because westarted actually
during Covid like,yeah, yeah, yeah.
And these are some,some studies and, and we were
meeting every weektelling our stories
to one another, building thisdeep connection
and then got to meet.
And Tennesseetogether was just so
(22:09):
at the Samson retreatwas just so you know, it, it's
so exciting that,hey, you're a lot
taller than I expected.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it is, it's absolutelyessential that we find
a safe place to bringour real selves.
(22:30):
And then the payoff is.
Here's what.
It's the reasonwhy wives push their
husbands out the doorto go to Samson.
They like what comes back.
During the first 20 yearsof my marriage, I equated
intimacy with sex.
Now, when Ali discovered.
When I finally disclosedthe degree to which I had gone
(22:52):
off the reservation,the many, many ways
in which I had betrayedand gaslighted her.
And, I mean,that was a huge blow.
It was very traumatic.
It took her time to cometo terms with it
and to heal from it.
And during that time,I slept in a closet and sex
was off the table.
That lasted a couple of yearsnow, but fortunately I
(23:16):
was in meetingswhere I was having
deep conversationsin a nonsexual atmosphere.
I was learning and practicingnon-sexual intimacy, and then
I was able to bring those skillshome, and I was able to start
to say the things at home.
(23:37):
And, and, and Ali didn't run.
She actually pulled closer.
And then I startedto find the courage to drop,
down to a deeperlevel of transparency
in daily conversations.
A guy I'd bump into,you know, at Starbucks.
And what I found was the moreI was willing to be transparent,
(23:59):
man, guys would follow medown that road.
And before I know it,a guy saying, hey, can we talk?
I've never toldanybody this, but yeah.
I did become the safest personthey know. Right?
I mean absolutely, yeah.
Yeah yeah yeah. Amazing.
Yeah.
Ali was afraid, you know, Ieventually was invited.
(24:21):
Teach a Sunday schoolclass at our church.
And, after disclosingmy issue to my pastor
and explaining why I couldn'tpossibly teach a Sunday school
class because, you know, I'ma porn addict and a sex addict.
I can't guaranteeI'll never slip.
And fortunately, I had a pastorwho understands the gospel
and trust the Holy Spirit.
He encouraged me toteach the class,
(24:43):
co-teach the class, and the the.
The class went from 30 peopleto 300 fairly quickly.
Because I was bringing it,I was talking recovery,
because oneof the great benefits
of this recovery journey isI got a new lens through which
to look at Scripture.
I've been looking at Scripturethrough a shame based lens
(25:06):
for a very long time.
I've been looking at Scripturethrough a moralistic lens
for a very long time.
I got a hold the Bible change.
God, that's.
To me, that's aremarkable thing.
Samson is a Christian groupfor Christian guys.
I actually gotstarted in recovery in a group
that wasn't Christian.
But even though we weren'treading the Bible, we weren't,
(25:30):
except for the Lord's Prayer.
We weren't praying, then theSerenity Prayer.
We never mentionedthe name of Jesus.
We didn't sing.
We didn't doall the church stuff.
That experience not onlysaved my marriage
and saved my life,it saved me spiritually.
I met God in a whole new wayin that grace filled room.
He got a whole lot bigger.
(25:51):
He got a whole lot closer.
He got a whole lot kinder.
And now to be able to bring soto to bring that perspective
back into church.
So I'm teachingSunday school class.
Ali promised me not to saynot to call myself
a porn addict.
She made me promisethat I wouldn't identify
(26:12):
as a porn addict, a sex addict,because she was concerned
that we wouldlose all our friends
if I said the words.
So for the first coupleyears I was I called myself
an addict and didn'tlabel myself beyond that.
So I'm sure there wassome speculation.
And I'm good enoughat misdirection
(26:33):
that probably nottoo many people guessed that
I was a porn addict,a sex addict,
maybe a Scrabble addictor something, I don't know, but,
when I finally.
When we wrote the bookand the book
was going to be releasedand the story
was going to be out,and I finally
had to say it, you know.
(26:56):
It scared Ali when I said it.
It did, in the moment.
But holy smokes,people didn't go.
People didn't pull away.
They pulled in, they got closer.
The numbers of our friendsmultiplied.
It didn't diminish the depthof our relationships,
(27:19):
you know, it improved.
So, now we probablyare a little bit too reckless,
and we've lostall our shame. And.
I'll find a way to work itinto a conversation when I don't
even need to.
So that's okay.
You are proud of what Jesus hasdone in your life
(27:39):
and how he has redeemedyou and your marriage.
And speaking of your marriageand your amazing wife that you
keep mentioning. And I.
I just adore the strengthof character that she has
throughout your journey,because it certainly was
hard on her.
And I want to talk a little bitabout the spouse
and how husbandscan rebuild trust
(28:00):
after betrayal, because that'sthat's a process in itself.
And we often forgetto talk about the spouse.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, the addictgets all the attention and,
it most of us, we'reself-centered enough
that we don't realize.
We know that we have beendamaging ourselves.
We're unaware of the damagethat's rippling out from our
(28:24):
self-centered behavior.
I didn't know how deepI thought that because
Ali didn't knowit wasn't affecting her.
But my emotionaldistance, my duplicity,
my remote, the fact that I was,I was I was in a
disassociated statemost of the time.
I wasn't connected to myself.
(28:45):
I wasn'treally connected to God, and I
was not capableof connecting to her.
But she was she was fedand we had some good times.
She was always my favoriteplaymate and, you know,
drinking buddy.
Back in the day when we bothwere drinking, and she's
a wonderful mother.
(29:05):
And she stepped in and made upfor my deficits in so many ways.
It's a miracle that we have,great relationships
with well adjusted kidswho are raising great grandkids,
but they're doing it.
And all the credit goes to Ali.
It was hard for her.
She.
(29:26):
Nowadays there are more,there's more support.
Support available for spouses.
One of the great developmentsin Samson world
is that a few years ago,our wives finally got together
and said, hey,we need to do something
like this ourselves.
So on their own initiative,they started the Sarah Society,
(29:47):
which is modeled roughlyafter the Samson Society.
They do basicallywhat we do, but
but curated towarda woman's perspective.
Sarah, society'sactually growing faster
than Samson is right now.
And about to have their third,national retreat and, yeah,
they're doing great.
Ali did not have that support.
(30:09):
And she because she didn'twant people to know
I was a porn addictand sex addict.
She didn't feel safeto tell anybody.
It was a lonely road for her.
For those first couple of years,she really pulled into
her relationship with God.
She was.
She was never unkindor uncivil to me,
(30:30):
but she was firm, and shereinforced her own boundaries.
We had what amounted toan in-house separation
for a while.
And she watched me closely.
I made the mistake of tryingto push recovery on Allie early,
(30:50):
which sent the messagethat I was blame shifting.
That's how she interpreted it,that I was making
my problem. Her problem.
And and this was backin the days, really, before we
really understoodbetrayal trauma and spouses
were just identifiedas co addicts, and they're as
sick as you are.
It was not a good messagefor her to receive
(31:11):
and she did notreally take it in.
She resisted it, thankfully.
But I have more and morerespect and empathy
for spouses of addicts,whether they stay
or whether they don't.
I tell the new guyscoming into Samson
(31:33):
and we do a newcomervirtual newcomer
meeting every day.
So I get to hearthe same story basically
over and over and over again.
It's a wonderful,wonderful thing
to hear guys say it.
I, I would saythe majority of the guys
who come to New Comermeetings are married.
And their behavior has takenall kind of all forms.
(31:53):
Right.
But for many of us, pornhas been a gateway
to other behavior.
I can tell those guys that,an awful lot of marriages
not survive.
And they don't just survive.
They thrive.
Our marriage is somuch better now, that, as
(32:16):
you know, Ali willsay that is rotten.
Is the first 20 yearswhere she'd take him in
a heartbeat to get whatwe have today.
The fruit of recoveryis so sweet that if the only way
to it is through addiction,then the addiction
is actually worth it.
I tell the guys, look,I can't promise that
your marriages survive.
Will survive.
I will tell you,you can't do recovery
(32:38):
to save your marriage.
You can't do it for her.
She's going to.
If you're playingto the audience, she'll know.
And that's nothingbut manipulation.
You have to let her go.
Emotionally.
You have to do it for you.
The odds are are decentthat it will survive.
Not.
(32:58):
But not every marriage survives.
And at this point,I'm not convinced
that every marriage should.
But every man does.
And, And I havethe privilege of walk
now, you know,as the generations build,
seeing guys now capableof, of a of a deep,
(33:18):
respectful, fulfillingmarriage relationship.
And that first onedidn't make it.
They they really tried.
They meant that, you know,they did everything
they could do, but that wasnot their choice.
And but nowI have the privilege of,
of watching him take it,you know, really taste marriage.
It's a it's ait's a beautiful thing to watch.
(33:41):
Nate.
You know, you offer that,that little nugget
of advice there,but you actually wrote
a course for the victoryapp by Covenant Eyes.
Oh, yeah, it says that.
It says, hey, the one yearwhen your spouse's
first discoveredyour your porn use.
These are the stepsyou should take.
And by the way,you can download the
(34:01):
the victory app for freeand go through Nate's course.
And there's alsosome courses as well.
And therefore specifically forour wives who have experienced
betrayal trauma, what are theyexperiencing?
What does it feel like?
Why is it so impactful on them,and how can they begin
taking steps fortheir own healing?
(34:22):
But you do someremarkable, maybe tease
just a little bit about how thatthat advice says, listen, Guy,
you need to you need to know thea couple of rules here
that's going to helpyour spouse, right?
Instead of instead of causingmore torture, would you just.
(34:42):
You know, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Take some basic steps herethat can really.
Yeah.
Create some,what the right steps and not the
hurtful ones. Yeah.
One of the best pieces of adviceI got early on.
Well, I was toldnot to push recovery on Ali,
and I ignored that and reallythen delayed her entrance
into recovery just becauseI was pushy.
(35:04):
But I did.
I did followanother piece of advice,
and it was good advice.
My sponsor said, Nate, your jobright now is to allow
Ali to be as angryas she needs to be for as long
as she needs to be angry.
Do not push herfor quick forgiveness.
She cannot forgivewhat she can't feel.
(35:26):
You have to allow herto feel it.
Even God himself,when we betrayed him
and contravened his commands,did not just from heaven
say, it's okay, I forgive you.
He actually poured outhis wrath on his son.
That until she feels angry,if she tries,
(35:47):
if you force her orif she feels obligated
to just paper it over andforgive, unquote right away,
that really isjust a form of denial.
That pain will beswept under the rug
where it will festerand poison your
relationship for years.
You got to let her be angry and,and and that was it.
(36:14):
That was a good thing to do.
Now, some wives,at some point, they need
gonna need some helpfrom a trained therapist
to actually workthrough that anger
and get past to it.
So get past it so thatit doesn't hang around forever
as resentment.
But we can't skipthe anger stage.
That's really,really powerful advice.
And I think, that'ssomething that a lot of us
(36:36):
forget that we do need that timeand however much time
that might be.
Yeah.
Well, with that,we are kind of coming
to the end of today's show,but I definitely want
to make sure that we offerour listeners, whether it's
the men out therelooking for a way
to get connectedto Samson Society, or maybe it's
the spouses that are listeningto this feeling like, wow,
(36:58):
this might be somethingthat's really helpful
for my husband.
How how can we get thisin front of people?
And what words of encouragementdo you have for our listeners?
Well, I do want to make sureeverybody understands
that it really doesn't matterhow far down the scale
you have gone.
It is.
Recovery is possible.
(37:19):
You can find freedomand gain recovery from any
unwanted compulsive behavior.
As long as you don'ttry to do it alone.
This is why, CovenantEyes is such a helpful tool.
Allowing somebody elsein on a life
(37:42):
that you've kept secretfor so long.
It's a guardrail.
It's a helpful guardrail.
And then, of course,I so appreciate that library
of resourcesthat you all continue to build
that Covenant Eyes.
It's really extraordinary.
All those great tools,they're so, I call myself
(38:02):
a hope dealer.
We can get ourselvesinto a place.
I remember being into a placeof utter despair.
Ali was there, too, thinkingit's never going
to get any better.
It can't get any better.
This is as goodas it gets. And I've.
I got to either resignmyself to this awful life
(38:23):
or do somethingdrastic and leave no freedom.
Healing.
It's always possible,but you can't do it alone.
That is so good.
Well, thank you so muchfor joining us today.
It has been such a pleasureto hear from you.
And wherecan people go to connect
with Samson Society?
(38:43):
I would imagineyou have a website.
We do that.
We can point people to you.
Yeah.
SamsonSociety.com.
We do have virtual meetingsalready.
There are meetingsin eight languages as Samson is
going global.
But you can't attenda virtual meeting
until you've cometo a new comer meeting.
That's kind ofa two way interview.
We need to verify that you're areal person.
(39:06):
We need to give youa full orientation.
There are no duesor fees for membership
in Samson.
We do have expenses, and we areself-supporting through our own
contributions.
But you don't haveto pay a subscription.
You can find fellowship there.
That's at SamsonSociety.com.
And wives, now have an optionat SarahSociety.com.
(39:28):
Once again,you'll have to attend
a new comer meeting.
But you can now,find a community of other
great women married tolovable idiots.
And you can learnhow to navigate the pain. Yeah.
I love that.
And I have to say that these newcomer meetings.
(39:49):
If that sounds scary to you,don't be frightened at all.
It is one of the most welcoming,hopeful experiences that that
are going to launchyou toward a life
of, of toward recovery.
It really is.
I, I, I got to host thosefor a number of years,
and it was so fun to see guyslight up and go, finally.
(40:14):
Yeah, I have a placeI can be real and authentic
and and really get some help.
It's a big deal.
It is a big deal I love that.
Well this brings today's episodeto a close.
We know you're goingto want to check out
Samson Societyand Sarah Society.
(40:34):
Now as well.
Definitely checkthese organizations out.
They are amazing.
Nate Larkin,thanks for all you do.
Sam Black, thanks for coming onthe podcast today.
It was so good. Yeah,it was a great pleasure
to have both of yougentlemen on today.
So to all of our listenersout there, make sure you like
and subscribe to this podcastand share it far and wide
(40:54):
so we can help lead more peopleto freedom from pornography.
Take care.
God bless.
We'll see you next time on TheCovenant Eyes Podcast.
Hey, everybody, welcome backto The Covenant Eyes Podcast.
It's Karen, and I'm so gladthat you are here.
Joining us for this episode.
We have a longtimefriend joining us, actually two
longtime friends.
One works at CovenantEyes and Sam.
We go way back.
I feel like we're. Yeah.
Oh, geez.
Nowadays, right.
There's a whole new generationto cover the eyes.
But we've been herequite a while,
(00:27):
and you've been herea lot longer than me.
But welcome to the podcast.
It's so good to beco-hosting with you today.
Yeah, I'm looking forwardto this conversation.
We get to talk to one of ourlongtime friends.
So we've got, we've gone onhikes together
and a lot of other fun stuff.
So Nate Larkin,founder of the Sans,
the Society, welcome.
(00:47):
Glad you're here.
Oh, thanksso much for having me.
This is a joy.
Listen, I'mgoing to just introduce
a little bit, read a little bitof your bio about who you are
just to help our listenersknow what, know
a little more about you.
Nate Larkin is the founderof the Samson Society
and the author of Samsonand the Pirate Monks.
This is a great book.
(01:08):
I highly, highly recommend it.
He is a graduate of SaintLawrence University
and PrincetonTheological Seminary.
He's also a recovering pornand sex addict.
In 1998, Nate finally found helpfor his sex addiction
in the safetyof a 12 step group.
As of 2024, more than 600local society
(01:30):
groups have started,and thousands of men from around
the world are attendingdaily online meetings
at Samson Society.
Dot org need is apopular speaker at conferences.
Love to hear you speak man.
You are thegreatest storyteller.
I love to hear your stories.
He speaks at collegesand retreats and is the co-host
(01:51):
of two podcasts,The Pirate Monk Podcast
and the PositiveSobriety Podcast.
He and his wife, Ali recentlycelebrated their 45th
wedding anniversary.
Congratulations.
And they live in MountPleasant, Tennessee.
Thanks, Sam.
What a what a nice introductionfor me.
For the listenersout there, obviously
your bio speaks volumesto the amount of
(02:13):
work that you do.
I mean, you are everywhereand you are helping so many men,
but let's kind ofgo back in time a little bit.
For the listeners that maybearen't familiar with your story,
can you share a little bit ofyour journey and what led
you to actually startthe Samson Society,
which has helpedso many men? Yeah.
Well, I was raised in church.
(02:35):
My dad was a preacher,and I was destined
for the ministryfrom a very early age.
And I was a good kid.
Except when I wasn'tand when I wasn't, the penalties
were severe, so I learnedearly on to hide,
and to perform.
We never talkedabout sex at home.
That was a taboo subject.
Never heard about it in church.
(02:56):
Nobody warned methat porn even existed
until I ran into itaround the age of ten,
shortly aftermy mother had died.
This is a long time ago.
This is backwhen in Playboy era.
But the Playboywas more than enough
and the fire was lit.
So I wrestled with,I felt a lot of guilt and shame,
you know, quit a thousand times,wrestled all
(03:18):
through adolescence.
When I got to college, Idecided to become sophisticated.
It was time to stopfeeling guilty.
Time to join the modern world.
I needed sexeducation desperately.
And I thought, what better placeto get it? The porn.
I didn't know any better.
I actually rationalized my pornuse during my college years
(03:38):
as preparation for marriage,unaware that I was already
poisoning my marriage.
But I was certainthat when I met the right girl
and got married, that naturallymy interest in porn
would disappear.
What I didn't understandwas that by then,
porn had already become pornand masturbation.
My default distressmanagement strategy.
(04:01):
So whenever I was in distress,that's what I went to
for comfort.
Emotional regulation.
Well, I did meetthe perfect girl.
We got marriedthe day I graduated.
I was deeply in love.
But as it turns out,marriage is stressful.
So it wasn't too longafter the honeymoon that that
the problem reappeared,which was very discouraging.
(04:23):
But what I told myself then was,you know, Nate, porn is
probably your best defenseagainst infidelity.
No way you're ever going tocheat on your wife.
You meant it.
Every promiseyou made at the altar.
So come to think of it,you're probably
being considerate,not burdening Ali with all your
sexual needs.
(04:44):
She just doesn't need to knowhow considerate you're being.
But alreadythat porn use was coming
between Ali and me.
Even though she didn'tknow what I was doing,
she could see me drifting awayemotionally as I am
bonding daily with phantoms,and and brightness.
So by this pointnow, porn is programing
(05:06):
me, grooming me, setting me upfor the next stage.
It was a processthat accelerated.
Ironically, during seminary,I went on a seminary
sponsored tripinto New York City, into the sex
shops of Time Square.
I got my firstlook at hardcore porn.
I did not realize at that pointhow much more powerful
(05:28):
those moving images are thanthe still images
I'd been using upuntil that point.
Because film is immersive,it reaches a part of the brain,
that can't distinguishbetween real experience
and virtual experience.
So now it's as though I'msitting in a simulator every day
and it takes a few years.
But fast forwardabout six years.
(05:49):
We're now in South Florida,in in a period of white
knuckling abstinencethat I thought was recovery
and victory,I'd started a church.
I was a church planter.
Somehow the pastor,and I don't know
if you know this, Karen,but church can be stressful.
(06:11):
So not too long afterwe planted the church,
the problem, you know,reared its head again.
So I was very careful.
I was never caught,but I was using porn
on a regular basis.
And this is before the internet.
So it's it's adultbookstores back in the day.
(06:31):
And then aboutthree and a half years
in, four yearsinto the ministry, it got worse.
And on a very fatefulChristmas Eve,
I pulled over to offer a womana ride out of the rain,
not knowing what she was doinguntil she was in the car
and propositioning me.
And that is when the programingkicked in, because I'd seen
some version of that scenariocountless times and I went
(06:55):
full automatic.
That was awful.
Just off.
I couldn't believe I'd done it.
The guilt, the shame,just crushing,
but I also believedI couldn't tell anybody.
You know, my ministrywould be finished if I did.
I had to figure it out myself.
I worked really hardto try to figure it out.
(07:16):
And about a yearand a half later,
I finally gave up in despairbecause I could not
stop the behavior.
So I quit.
The ministry at the ripeold age of 30,
went into business where I hadthe great misfortune to succeed.
So now I've got moneyand no accountability.
And that's when it reallywhat got dark.
Although I never missed church,I loved church and church.
(07:40):
I could be Saint Nate and serveyou church.
I could be the guyI wanted to be on.
The guy who I thought God loves.
I just couldn't be that guyfor very long.
Outside the building.
And that was just horrible.
But, I have a praying wife.
She was so it was not easy.
(08:00):
I was not an easy guyto be married to.
Running to lives.
All that stress, all thatdeception, all those
unexplained absences,all the money that was
going out the door.
In 1998, we made the movefrom South Florida
to Middle Tennessee.
And it was shortly after thatmove that Ali caught me,
(08:23):
first with porn.
And then not long after that,she found a condom on the floor
in the bathroom that I couldn'tquite explain.
And that's when my wifesat me down
on the edge of our bed and saidthe words that saved my life.
She said, I'm done.
She said, I still love you,but I don't like you.
(08:44):
I don't trust you,I don't respect you,
and I don't thinkyou can ever change.
Those were the wordsthat gave me the gift
of desperation.
It was in a desperate attemptto salvage
the only real friendshipI'd known in adulthood, that I.
That I finally went for help.
And I'm so gratefulthat I found help first in a 12
(09:05):
step group.
And then, you know,it took about six years
to finally, you know,learn the fundamentals
of recoveryand get some stability
in my sobriety.
By then, I'd lost my shame.
I actually told my pastorand gave him my phone number
and permission to pass italong to anybody.
(09:25):
He thoughtI might be able to help.
And right away, my phonestarted to ring because,
as it turns out,I'm far from unique.
All those years, I thought I wasthe only guy.
So before I know it, I'm walkingwith a dozen guys.
All of us Christians.
And really, as we beganto experience
(09:47):
the fruit of recoveryand what happens when we
walk together in the light,we really wanted to
be able to integrateour Christian faith,
vocabulary and heritagewith this amazing recovery walk.
And that's when I met my wife.
Suggestion, actually, we startedthe Samson Society.
That was in 2004,on Valentine's Day 2004.
(10:10):
So we're two daysaway from the 21 year
anniversary of the founding,and the fact that
a dozen of us were freeon Valentine's Day
kind of shows where we,where we were, Ali
was more than willingto let me go be with the guys
because she'd seenthe fruit of recovery.
And some of those guys,the wife didn't
(10:31):
want to see him anyway,or they weren't.
At any rate, but it grewvery quickly.
We got excited.
We got so excited.
In 2007, we put out the bookthat Sam referenced,
Samson and the Pirate Monks,hoping to inspire other guys
to do somethinglike what we were doing.
And it's been a rocket rideever since.
Wow.
Your testimony each time I hearit is just so powerful.
(10:55):
And the way that Godhas used your brokenness
to bring about an organizationthat has helped so many guys
find freedom and connectionand community.
And I think we don't, I don't,and I think we do it
at Covenant Eyes.
But in general, we don't talkabout the need and the absolute
biblical mandateto be in community
(11:17):
and connection with one anotherin the body.
There's something so powerfulabout believers being together
on the journey.
Talk to us a little bit aboutwhy it's so important,
and why that's kindof the secret sauce
of the Samson Society,the brotherhood
that's created there.
Yeah, it all boilsdown to attachment.
I am more and more convincedthat character
(11:39):
change does not come,biological means through the
left hemisphere of the brain.
That slow thinking, logical partcharacter change happens,
on the limbic level.
It happens in the righthemisphere of the brain,
and it happensthrough attachment.
We have to be connected.
It's absolutely true.
The opposite of addictionis connection.
(12:01):
Recovery requires relationship.
That's not the messageI wanted to hear.
When I walked into my first12 step meeting.
I was not looking for friendsand I did not want
to join a group.
I was therefor research purposes.
My goal was to setthe land speed
record for recovery,and I was going to do
do so by independent,you know, study.
(12:22):
I'm a smart guy.
I'm going to masterthe material.
I will admit,I was selling recovery
long before I owned it,because I'd learned the lingo.
But I did not begin, actually,to experience
true sexual sobrietyuntil finally,
after enough failure,enough phase plans
when willpowerjust wouldn't do it.
(12:45):
When my best when Iwhen I was acting out
of out and acting out.
I'm acting outsidemy own moral guidelines
and my own moral convictions.
And doing that enough times,I finally surrendered and said,
okay, it's time to jointhe human race.
I'm not unique.
(13:05):
I need to learn to bejust another bozo on the bus.
I need to be as willingto take advice
as I am to give advice,is willing to ask for
help as I am to give help,to become a man among
men, a member of the body,and at I am now more and more
(13:26):
aware of the realityof the body of Christ.
I was always willingto trust Christ. Right.
This man Jesus thing,never willing to trust the body
of Christ.
In fact, I didn't even believein the body of Christ.
I thought that was justa metaphor.
I did not believe thatJesus is present on this planet
(13:49):
in the lives of broken people.
But I want to tell you,I believe it today.
And the greatestact of surrender that I make
every day is to tell the truthto another member
of the body of Christ.
And that's what Samsondoes there a lot.
You know, Samson doesn'tdo everything.
You know, we're not therapists,although we interview
(14:11):
therapists all the time.
And some therapists are membersof Samson Society.
We don't do curriculum.
You guys do great curriculum.
I'm part of a Pure Desire group.
They have createdgreat curriculum.
Samson doesn't do that.
But the one thing we dois we do connection.
It's a safe place where you canbring your real self,
say the real truth,and make real,
(14:33):
authentic connectionwith other people,
come out of hiding.
And then as we startto experience mutual
mind with one anotherand mutual mind
with the indwelling Christ,mysteriously, mystically,
sometimes just in baffling ways,character change
starts to happen, old desiresfade and new desires
(14:56):
start to rise.
It's a it's a healing process.
It's a growing process.
It's a learning process.
And, by the way, the key word inall three phrases is process.
None of this is instantaneous.
It takes time.
We have to stay engaged.
You know, Nate, I lovewhat you're saying.
As as you tell yourthe whole story
(15:17):
and up into the present,it is not unique to you
or to me, to otherswho are listening.
The story isis so common, right.
It's the early exposure.
Yeah, yeah.
The repetitioususe of pornography and some
unsettled wounds that we've justnever dealt with. Well.
(15:37):
Right.
And, and so we'rejust become susceptible
to all these triggersand emotions and self-soothing
and then, but we've got itall figured out, right?
I just try harderif I, you know, and and
there's somethingI'd like you to explore.
Yeah.
About me.
(15:58):
And I was going to church.
That's one thingI could do. Yeah.
And that is that shameand grandiosity,
that's all. On the.
That's just the same emotionin different spheres.
Tell me about how grandiositycould help you feel
less of the shame in thatthe shame would lead you toward
(16:18):
grandiosity. Right.
Oh absolutely.
And by the waythat's a temptation
that has not disappearedin recovery.
I'm always beingpulled back toward living a
an honest, transparentand right sized life.
You know what, Sam?
Thank you for that.
Nobody's ever madethat connection for me.
That that shame and grandiosityare on a spectrum.
(16:41):
That's that's a fascinatingand very valuable insight.
So, yeah, if, I,I want to tell you, I had a
wonderful reputation as a pastorand the the, the
the deeper my shame,and the blacker and more hidden
my sense of failure,the more I compensated by being,
(17:04):
even more, present, patientand merciful.
At least I was trying to do.
And, tooting my own horn,producing my own press releases,
really trying to belarger than life and
trying to be everythingto everybody.
One of the capson my ministry, I, my, my church
(17:24):
peaked at about 150 people.
One of the reasonsit peaked was, I had to be
everybody's best friend.
Now, here's the here'sthe toughest thing.
When, when,And of course, I wasn't,
but I was workingvery hard at that.
By the time I got into recovery,I really had to face
(17:47):
the fact that, my problemwas not a lack of information.
My problem was a lackof a relationship.
I was well known.
I had a lot of peoplein my Rolodex.
People knew meor thought they knew me
and liked me.
They named their kids after me.
There were a lot of peoplewho would call me
their closest friend.
(18:08):
I was well known,but nobody knew me.
And even the affirmationthat I got
from all those people, well,it felt good in
the in the moment.
It was so fleeting, it reallyevaporated quickly.
I because deep inside,I knew they weren't
seeing the real me.
And I deeply believed thatif they or anybody
(18:31):
ever saw the realme, they would run.
So I had to perform.
That was what was so fantasticand frightening about going down
into the churchbasement for my first
12 step meeting,because there was a place
where I didn't have tospeak in code.
I didn't have topretty anything up.
(18:52):
Nobody wanted to meetSaint Nate.
I was welcome to to meet.
I was welcometo bring the real me.
And to begin, I did itcautiously
and carefully at first,you know, saying,
it was just so hardto say the words, I'm
a porn addict or a sex addict,that I'm a recovering
port addict.
I mean, I claim that, right?
(19:14):
And even thatI could only say it
as a whisper.
So hard to begin to own my own.
You know what the 12 stepperswould call my character defects.
The ways in which my personalityhas been warped by wounds
and by my own behavior.
But every time I venturedinto the light,
(19:34):
I was, I was met.
I was met with grace.
People didn't pull away.
They pulled in.
And now I find that actuallythe real me, the broken me,
is more attractivethan the bright and shiny me.
And it can actually accomplisha whole lot more
because the real me is capableof real relationship, where
(19:57):
the artificial meis only capable of surface
relationships.
That is so beautifuland so true.
I think about our society now.
I mean, we really livein a digital age
where everybody createspersonas online.
We craft our our livesand our social media feeds
so that the worldcan admire our vacations
(20:18):
and our familiesand whatever else we're really
well connected.
And I use thatin quotation marks
because we feel likewe're being connected
with people,but really we're not.
And we're not letting peoplesee the authentic, real us.
And so I thinkthere's a real danger,
like technology providesgreat opportunity, like people
use technology to join SamsonSociety groups.
(20:41):
And, you know, we use technologyat Covenant Eyes.
Obviously,to help people overcome
pornography addiction.
But there's a dangerthat it gives us a false sense
of connectivity.
Really, we can't get awayfrom that in person,
being togetherwith other people.
Talk to me a little bitabout how some Samson Society
helps men specificallyfacilitate relationships,
(21:05):
you know, in the real worldbecause, yeah, they're
connecting online.
But I know you guysare driving them back
to building outtheir inner circle
in the real world, correct?
Yeah, absolutely.
Although I must tell youthat I've been surprised
and impressed by the degreeto which the depth
to which relationshipscan form through,
(21:27):
electronic connection.
We do our annualnational retreat, in the fall,
usually in November.
And the favorite part,my favorite part of that retreat
is watching guys hugtheir best friend
for the first time.
But I, by the way, Nate,I've done that time.
Oh, yeah.
Of course, you know,coming to the the conference
in Tennessee.
(21:47):
Yeah, yeah.
Here's guysthat I've been meeting
with online since 3 or 4 years,and this is the first time
we've actually because westarted actually
during Covid like,yeah, yeah, yeah.
And these are some,some studies and, and we were
meeting every weektelling our stories
to one another, building thisdeep connection
and then got to meet.
And Tennesseetogether was just so
(22:09):
at the Samson retreatwas just so you know, it, it's
so exciting that,hey, you're a lot
taller than I expected.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it is, it's absolutelyessential that we find
a safe place to bringour real selves.
(22:30):
And then the payoff is.
Here's what.
It's the reasonwhy wives push their
husbands out the doorto go to Samson.
They like what comes back.
During the first 20 yearsof my marriage, I equated
intimacy with sex.
Now, when Ali discovered.
When I finally disclosedthe degree to which I had gone
(22:52):
off the reservation,the many, many ways
in which I had betrayedand gaslighted her.
And, I mean,that was a huge blow.
It was very traumatic.
It took her time to cometo terms with it
and to heal from it.
And during that time,I slept in a closet and sex
was off the table.
That lasted a couple of yearsnow, but fortunately I
(23:16):
was in meetingswhere I was having
deep conversationsin a nonsexual atmosphere.
I was learning and practicingnon-sexual intimacy, and then
I was able to bring those skillshome, and I was able to start
to say the things at home.
(23:37):
And, and, and Ali didn't run.
She actually pulled closer.
And then I startedto find the courage to drop,
down to a deeperlevel of transparency
in daily conversations.
A guy I'd bump into,you know, at Starbucks.
And what I found was the moreI was willing to be transparent,
(23:59):
man, guys would follow medown that road.
And before I know it,a guy saying, hey, can we talk?
I've never toldanybody this, but yeah.
I did become the safest personthey know. Right?
I mean absolutely, yeah.
Yeah yeah yeah. Amazing.
Yeah.
Ali was afraid, you know, Ieventually was invited.
(24:21):
Teach a Sunday schoolclass at our church.
And, after disclosingmy issue to my pastor
and explaining why I couldn'tpossibly teach a Sunday school
class because, you know, I'ma porn addict and a sex addict.
I can't guaranteeI'll never slip.
And fortunately, I had a pastorwho understands the gospel
and trust the Holy Spirit.
He encouraged me toteach the class,
(24:43):
co-teach the class, and the the.
The class went from 30 peopleto 300 fairly quickly.
Because I was bringing it,I was talking recovery,
because oneof the great benefits
of this recovery journey isI got a new lens through which
to look at Scripture.
I've been looking at Scripturethrough a shame based lens
(25:06):
for a very long time.
I've been looking at Scripturethrough a moralistic lens
for a very long time.
I got a hold the Bible change.
God, that's.
To me, that's aremarkable thing.
Samson is a Christian groupfor Christian guys.
I actually gotstarted in recovery in a group
that wasn't Christian.
But even though we weren'treading the Bible, we weren't,
(25:30):
except for the Lord's Prayer.
We weren't praying, then theSerenity Prayer.
We never mentionedthe name of Jesus.
We didn't sing.
We didn't doall the church stuff.
That experience not onlysaved my marriage
and saved my life,it saved me spiritually.
I met God in a whole new wayin that grace filled room.
He got a whole lot bigger.
(25:51):
He got a whole lot closer.
He got a whole lot kinder.
And now to be able to bring soto to bring that perspective
back into church.
So I'm teachingSunday school class.
Ali promised me not to saynot to call myself
a porn addict.
She made me promisethat I wouldn't identify
(26:12):
as a porn addict, a sex addict,because she was concerned
that we wouldlose all our friends
if I said the words.
So for the first coupleyears I was I called myself
an addict and didn'tlabel myself beyond that.
So I'm sure there wassome speculation.
And I'm good enoughat misdirection
(26:33):
that probably nottoo many people guessed that
I was a porn addict,a sex addict,
maybe a Scrabble addictor something, I don't know, but,
when I finally.
When we wrote the bookand the book
was going to be releasedand the story
was going to be out,and I finally
had to say it, you know.
(26:56):
It scared Ali when I said it.
It did, in the moment.
But holy smokes,people didn't go.
People didn't pull away.
They pulled in, they got closer.
The numbers of our friendsmultiplied.
It didn't diminish the depthof our relationships,
(27:19):
you know, it improved.
So, now we probablyare a little bit too reckless,
and we've lostall our shame. And.
I'll find a way to work itinto a conversation when I don't
even need to.
So that's okay.
You are proud of what Jesus hasdone in your life
(27:39):
and how he has redeemedyou and your marriage.
And speaking of your marriageand your amazing wife that you
keep mentioning. And I.
I just adore the strengthof character that she has
throughout your journey,because it certainly was
hard on her.
And I want to talk a little bitabout the spouse
and how husbandscan rebuild trust
(28:00):
after betrayal, because that'sthat's a process in itself.
And we often forgetto talk about the spouse.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, the addictgets all the attention and,
it most of us, we'reself-centered enough
that we don't realize.
We know that we have beendamaging ourselves.
We're unaware of the damagethat's rippling out from our
(28:24):
self-centered behavior.
I didn't know how deepI thought that because
Ali didn't knowit wasn't affecting her.
But my emotionaldistance, my duplicity,
my remote, the fact that I was,I was I was in a
disassociated statemost of the time.
I wasn't connected to myself.
(28:45):
I wasn'treally connected to God, and I
was not capableof connecting to her.
But she was she was fedand we had some good times.
She was always my favoriteplaymate and, you know,
drinking buddy.
Back in the day when we bothwere drinking, and she's
a wonderful mother.
(29:05):
And she stepped in and made upfor my deficits in so many ways.
It's a miracle that we have,great relationships
with well adjusted kidswho are raising great grandkids,
but they're doing it.
And all the credit goes to Ali.
It was hard for her.
She.
(29:26):
Nowadays there are more,there's more support.
Support available for spouses.
One of the great developmentsin Samson world
is that a few years ago,our wives finally got together
and said, hey,we need to do something
like this ourselves.
So on their own initiative,they started the Sarah Society,
(29:47):
which is modeled roughlyafter the Samson Society.
They do basicallywhat we do, but
but curated towarda woman's perspective.
Sarah, society'sactually growing faster
than Samson is right now.
And about to have their third,national retreat and, yeah,
they're doing great.
Ali did not have that support.
(30:09):
And she because she didn'twant people to know
I was a porn addictand sex addict.
She didn't feel safeto tell anybody.
It was a lonely road for her.
For those first couple of years,she really pulled into
her relationship with God.
She was.
She was never unkindor uncivil to me,
(30:30):
but she was firm, and shereinforced her own boundaries.
We had what amounted toan in-house separation
for a while.
And she watched me closely.
I made the mistake of tryingto push recovery on Allie early,
(30:50):
which sent the messagethat I was blame shifting.
That's how she interpreted it,that I was making
my problem. Her problem.
And and this was backin the days, really, before we
really understoodbetrayal trauma and spouses
were just identifiedas co addicts, and they're as
sick as you are.
It was not a good messagefor her to receive
(31:11):
and she did notreally take it in.
She resisted it, thankfully.
But I have more and morerespect and empathy
for spouses of addicts,whether they stay
or whether they don't.
I tell the new guyscoming into Samson
(31:33):
and we do a newcomervirtual newcomer
meeting every day.
So I get to hearthe same story basically
over and over and over again.
It's a wonderful,wonderful thing
to hear guys say it.
I, I would saythe majority of the guys
who come to New Comermeetings are married.
And their behavior has takenall kind of all forms.
(31:53):
Right.
But for many of us, pornhas been a gateway
to other behavior.
I can tell those guys that,an awful lot of marriages
not survive.
And they don't just survive.
They thrive.
Our marriage is somuch better now, that, as
(32:16):
you know, Ali willsay that is rotten.
Is the first 20 yearswhere she'd take him in
a heartbeat to get whatwe have today.
The fruit of recoveryis so sweet that if the only way
to it is through addiction,then the addiction
is actually worth it.
I tell the guys, look,I can't promise that
your marriages survive.
Will survive.
I will tell you,you can't do recovery
(32:38):
to save your marriage.
You can't do it for her.
She's going to.
If you're playingto the audience, she'll know.
And that's nothingbut manipulation.
You have to let her go.
Emotionally.
You have to do it for you.
The odds are are decentthat it will survive.
Not.
(32:58):
But not every marriage survives.
And at this point,I'm not convinced
that every marriage should.
But every man does.
And, And I havethe privilege of walk
now, you know,as the generations build,
seeing guys now capableof, of a of a deep,
(33:18):
respectful, fulfillingmarriage relationship.
And that first onedidn't make it.
They they really tried.
They meant that, you know,they did everything
they could do, but that wasnot their choice.
And but nowI have the privilege of,
of watching him take it,you know, really taste marriage.
It's a it's ait's a beautiful thing to watch.
(33:41):
Nate.
You know, you offer that,that little nugget
of advice there,but you actually wrote
a course for the victoryapp by Covenant Eyes.
Oh, yeah, it says that.
It says, hey, the one yearwhen your spouse's
first discoveredyour your porn use.
These are the stepsyou should take.
And by the way,you can download the
(34:01):
the victory app for freeand go through Nate's course.
And there's alsosome courses as well.
And therefore specifically forour wives who have experienced
betrayal trauma, what are theyexperiencing?
What does it feel like?
Why is it so impactful on them,and how can they begin
taking steps fortheir own healing?
(34:22):
But you do someremarkable, maybe tease
just a little bit about how thatthat advice says, listen, Guy,
you need to you need to know thea couple of rules here
that's going to helpyour spouse, right?
Instead of instead of causingmore torture, would you just.
(34:42):
You know, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Take some basic steps herethat can really.
Yeah.
Create some,what the right steps and not the
hurtful ones. Yeah.
One of the best pieces of adviceI got early on.
Well, I was toldnot to push recovery on Ali,
and I ignored that and reallythen delayed her entrance
into recovery just becauseI was pushy.
(35:04):
But I did.
I did followanother piece of advice,
and it was good advice.
My sponsor said, Nate, your jobright now is to allow
Ali to be as angryas she needs to be for as long
as she needs to be angry.
Do not push herfor quick forgiveness.
She cannot forgivewhat she can't feel.
(35:26):
You have to allow herto feel it.
Even God himself,when we betrayed him
and contravened his commands,did not just from heaven
say, it's okay, I forgive you.
He actually poured outhis wrath on his son.
That until she feels angry,if she tries,
(35:47):
if you force her orif she feels obligated
to just paper it over andforgive, unquote right away,
that really isjust a form of denial.
That pain will beswept under the rug
where it will festerand poison your
relationship for years.
You got to let her be angry and,and and that was it.
(36:14):
That was a good thing to do.
Now, some wives,at some point, they need
gonna need some helpfrom a trained therapist
to actually workthrough that anger
and get past to it.
So get past it so thatit doesn't hang around forever
as resentment.
But we can't skipthe anger stage.
That's really,really powerful advice.
And I think, that'ssomething that a lot of us
(36:36):
forget that we do need that timeand however much time
that might be.
Yeah.
Well, with that,we are kind of coming
to the end of today's show,but I definitely want
to make sure that we offerour listeners, whether it's
the men out therelooking for a way
to get connectedto Samson Society, or maybe it's
the spouses that are listeningto this feeling like, wow,
(36:58):
this might be somethingthat's really helpful
for my husband.
How how can we get thisin front of people?
And what words of encouragementdo you have for our listeners?
Well, I do want to make sureeverybody understands
that it really doesn't matterhow far down the scale
you have gone.
It is.
Recovery is possible.
(37:19):
You can find freedomand gain recovery from any
unwanted compulsive behavior.
As long as you don'ttry to do it alone.
This is why, CovenantEyes is such a helpful tool.
Allowing somebody elsein on a life
(37:42):
that you've kept secretfor so long.
It's a guardrail.
It's a helpful guardrail.
And then, of course,I so appreciate that library
of resourcesthat you all continue to build
that Covenant Eyes.
It's really extraordinary.
All those great tools,they're so, I call myself
(38:02):
a hope dealer.
We can get ourselvesinto a place.
I remember being into a placeof utter despair.
Ali was there, too, thinkingit's never going
to get any better.
It can't get any better.
This is as goodas it gets. And I've.
I got to either resignmyself to this awful life
(38:23):
or do somethingdrastic and leave no freedom.
Healing.
It's always possible,but you can't do it alone.
That is so good.
Well, thank you so muchfor joining us today.
It has been such a pleasureto hear from you.
And wherecan people go to connect
with Samson Society?
(38:43):
I would imagineyou have a website.
We do that.
We can point people to you.
Yeah.
SamsonSociety.com.
We do have virtual meetingsalready.
There are meetingsin eight languages as Samson is
going global.
But you can't attenda virtual meeting
until you've cometo a new comer meeting.
That's kind ofa two way interview.
We need to verify that you're areal person.
(39:06):
We need to give youa full orientation.
There are no duesor fees for membership
in Samson.
We do have expenses, and we areself-supporting through our own
contributions.
But you don't haveto pay a subscription.
You can find fellowship there.
That's at SamsonSociety.com.
And wives, now have an optionat SarahSociety.com.
(39:28):
Once again,you'll have to attend
a new comer meeting.
But you can now,find a community of other
great women married tolovable idiots.
And you can learnhow to navigate the pain. Yeah.
I love that.
And I have to say that these newcomer meetings.
(39:49):
If that sounds scary to you,don't be frightened at all.
It is one of the most welcoming,hopeful experiences that that
are going to launchyou toward a life
of, of toward recovery.
It really is.
I, I, I got to host thosefor a number of years,
and it was so fun to see guyslight up and go, finally.
(40:14):
Yeah, I have a placeI can be real and authentic
and and really get some help.
It's a big deal.
It is a big deal I love that.
Well this brings today's episodeto a close.
We know you're goingto want to check out
Samson Societyand Sarah Society.
(40:34):
Now as well.
Definitely checkthese organizations out.
They are amazing.
Nate Larkin,thanks for all you do.
Sam Black, thanks for coming onthe podcast today.
It was so good. Yeah,it was a great pleasure
to have both of yougentlemen on today.
So to all of our listenersout there, make sure you like
and subscribe to this podcastand share it far and wide
(40:54):
so we can help lead more peopleto freedom from pornography.
Take care.
God bless.
We'll see you next time on TheCovenant Eyes Podcast.
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