December 5, 2025 • 36 mins
In this episode of the Covenant Eyes Podcast, Theo McManigal sits down with Dr. Peter Kleponis—Catholic therapist, author, and creator of the Integrity Starts Here recovery program. Dr. Kleponis shares his 30-year journey into counseling, his discovery of a growing digital-behavior crisis, and how faith-centered healing can transform individuals, marriages, and even vocations.
He discusses:
• Why unwanted online habits often stem from emotional wounds, not desire
• How these behaviors impact trust and intimacy in marriages
• What spouses need to begin healing from betrayal
• The difference between a habit and a full-blown behavioral addiction
• How accountability tools and supportive communities foster long-term freedom
• Why prayer alone is not meant to “make the struggle disappear,” and how God instead walks with us through healing
• Practical steps clergy, parents, and couples can take right now to protect themselves and those they love
Dr. Kleponis also offers insight for parents navigating early exposure risks, tips for choosing a therapist, and encouragement for anyone ready to take the first step toward lasting freedom.
✨ Connect With Dr. Kleponis:
https://PeterKleponis.com
https://IntegrityCounselingPA.com
If this conversation encouraged you, please like, comment, and subscribe so more people can find this life-giving content.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
Hello everyone and welcome tothe Covenant Eyes Podcast.
I am your host today,Theo McManigal I.
I'm the Catholic churchoutreach specialist.
Karen Potter's doing well.
We just thought we wouldgive her a little bit
of a break today.
So, you know, just before weget into today's episode, please
remember to like and subscribe,to our YouTube channel
to continue getting our podcastsand our other great content.
(00:29):
So I'm very excitedabout today's episode.
We have with us, DoctorPeter Kelponis who in the
Catholic world among therapistsis definitely, someone I see
as an expert on this issueof pornography.
So we are very, very happyto talk with him.
Doctor Peter, how are you today?
I'm doing great.
Thank you for having me today.
Oh, thank you for coming on.
(00:51):
So, so can you, just start by,And I know it could
be, you know, a long story,maybe even a podcast
episode in itself,but can you tell us
and our listeners how,you got into being a therapist
as well ashow you decided to study
more and specialize,in on this issue of pornography?
Well, well, bothboth were kind of,
(01:12):
sort of by accident,a little bit.
So, my, my original careerwas actually
in financial services, and,I realized early on that I'm
not a number cruncher.
But I liked helping people.
I like talking to people.
And helping themsolve their problems
and everything.
So, we're going back30 years ago now.
Well over 30 years.
I decided in my mid 20sto switch careers and retool.
(01:35):
I went back to school, and whenI had to go back to
school at night for a yearto get some undergrad credits
and then grad schoolfor three years at night, and
finally, ‘97 got my Mastersand, you know,
began this, this journeyas a therapy.
Proponents who in years later,I therapists is definitely,
someone I see as an experton this issue of
(01:56):
biography practice.
So we are very, very happyto talk with him.
Doctor Peter, how are you today?
And how I got into specializingin pronouns.
Thank you for coming on.
So, so can you, just start by,what I noticed is, a long story,
maybe even a podcastepisode in itself.
But can you tell usand our listeners how,
you got into being thereas well as were.
(02:18):
Struggling.
With how you decidedto study more and specialize?
In fact, for many of themarried men, it was actually
their wives that were calling upseeking help.
So I noticed this trend,and I decided to study it
a little further to really seewhat's going on out there.
So I did my research,and what I discovered was that
there was thiswhole epidemic of, internet
(02:39):
pornography addictiongoing on out there.
But nobody wantedto talk about it.
Know, I'm just pluggingin my computer here.
Nobody wanted to sayanything about it.
It was still a taboo subject,but I realized that,
hey, we got to dosomething about this.
There are people that need help.
So again, I went back to schooland read what I went through,
actually, four separatecertification programs
(03:02):
for the treatment and,sexual addiction.
And then I just sort of became,you know, the, the, the expert
in this field and,started doing a lot of
speaking on it.
What happened was in 2010,I was asked to give a conference
to the priestsof the Archdiocese of New York,
which is very interesting.
And, of course,when you do something
(03:23):
for the archdiocese in New York,it's like playing
at Caesars Palace.
Everyone finds out about.
The Archdioceseof the United States country
talking about this, and then,you know,
writing books and, and,you know, I created
a recovery program.
So, you know, it really becamea passion of mine to help people
who are strugglingwith this, both
the people addictedto pornography and often spouses
(03:45):
who felt really betrayed by thisand dealing with betrayal trauma
because of it.
So that that is sortof been my journey here.
And and your workon this is expansive.
You've written books,you've as you said,
you've been arounda lot of the country.
And the world,I think gives it right
just to speak on this.
And, yes.
(04:06):
Obviously you'reworking with clients
on, on this and, you're really,you know, having an impact
on the way the worldand the church approaches this.
You also, along withyour practice, you're involved,
with, our friend organization,integrity restored. Yes.
Which also is the nameof your book, Integrity
Restored (04:27):
Helping Catholic families win the battle
against pornography.
And I think, isn'tit also kind of the name
of your practice or anotherone of your website?
Okay.
Well, I use integrity a lot, so,my book was Integrity Restored.
And from that,we created our nonprofit
educational organizationand restored to, my, my
(04:49):
recovery program iscalled Integrity
Starts Here. Okay.
And my counselingpractice is integrity
counseling services.
So that's sort of thewhere the tongue kind of ties
everything together.
Which came first?
Was it the book?
The book came first.
What led you to write the book?
Well, actually,you know, going back, again,
(05:12):
I think, or on 2012,I was invited down to EWTN,
to be on that bank of the show,Women of Grace.
You know, we actually didseveral episodes
and it was really good.
And she asked me if I wouldwrite a brochure
for a little pamphlet for her,for her viewers
that she could send outon pornography
addiction and recovery.
(05:32):
Well, that pamphlet ended upbeing 100 pages.
So.
So she said, okay, well,we will publish it
as a little book.
And we did.
That was my first book,I believe it
was published in 2012.
It was called The Porn ActThe Pornography Epidemic
A Catholic Approach.
And it was great, but I realizedthere was so much more
that needed to be saidabout the so much more.
(05:54):
And that's when I set outto write my next book, which was
Integrity Restored.
And I didn't realize thatthat became sort
of a seminal work,because even though
there were a few other peoplethat were writing
about this, such as not fraudand so forth, I was the only,
you know, actual mentalhealth professional
that was working in this field,that was writing on this
in the Catholic world,there was a lot, a lot of work
(06:16):
done in the Protestant world.
You know, it's it's amazing.
You know, the Protestants,unfortunately, you know,
they're light yearsahead of us in this.
You know, we Catholics,we have to catch up.
Actually, fortunately, they are,because you know, they
they've gotsome really great models there
that I've worked with.
And in fact,in the Christian world,
most of my trainingin the treatment
of sexual addictionis from various,
Protestant, programs,which I am, I'm
(06:38):
eternally grateful for.
Definitely.
So so again, so I.
Including ushere at cover, denies.
Right.
I mean, we were primarilya Protestant program.
Yes, yes.
It's excellent.
Excellent.
So so I wroteIntegrity Restored.
And it was very well received.
You know, a couple of years ago,we actually did the
second edition of it.
So, so it's been really whenI've been able to update it
(06:59):
and I plan on continuingto update it.
And then from there, you know,I developed a program
for this for, helping Catholicmen struggling with pornography
addiction.
And that's where my nextbook came from.
And that was kind of interestingbecause as I was
working on developingthis program, I had a binder
(07:20):
that I had full of papersand handouts and articles
and all kinds of thingsthat I was using for the men
that I was working with.
And it was a verysuccessful program.
And one day I lookedat that banner, I thought,
oh my gosh,I've got a book here.
So so that became my,my sort of my workbook
integrity starts here, which ismy recovery program
(07:42):
for pornographyaddiction recovery.
And it's worked very well.
And I'm actually,going to be soon starting on,
on the new editionof that, again, because I
always new informationcoming out, new modalities
and things coming out.
So I always want wantednew stats. Yeah.
Yep. Updated.
And then I realized, you know,I was working
(08:03):
with a lot of couples, and therereally was not.
I'm not a lotof information out there
for Catholic coupleswhose marriages
had been affected by pornographyaddiction.
And out of that camemy fourth book, which is
called RestoringTrust A Couples Guide
to Getting Past Porn.
Published by our Sunday Visitor.
(08:23):
And, and that book was greatbecause in it
I discussed, you know,the addicted spouse
and his or her disease,the traumatized spouse and his
or her woundedness,and then also the
wounded marriage and what needsto be done to heal that.
So, you know, really coverseverything.
That's that that's needed there.
(08:43):
You know, what happensto a marriage
because of pornographyis an addiction, but also how to
heal that marriage.
So every step of the waywas just kind of noticing
these different needsthat were out there
and working on trying to fillthose needs.
So, you know,it's it's not like I,
you know, one daysat down and said, yeah,
(09:04):
I think I'd like to dowrite four books now it's just,
Rose, I figure, well,somebody's got to do it.
It might as well be me.
And that's how it all happened.
That's fantastic.
And we're eternally gratefulto you for it.
Let's elaborate ona little bit of the,
the last one you were talkingabout marriages, pornography
and marriages.
Tell us about how,pornography use
(09:25):
impacts marriages,how it damages marriages,
and a little bitof what you do to help
couples heal.
Pornography use hasan incredible impact
on marriages.
You know, because, you know,and it's a lot of it's
because how many women view it,you know, a man may view
pornography simply as imageson a computer screen.
You know, everybody does it.
What's the big deal?
(09:45):
But to his wife,those aren't images.
Those are other women.
All right.
So for them, this is a formof adultery.
It's a formof infidelity, you know.
You know, and you thinkhow how horrible it would be
for a woman to discover that hisher husband is having an
affair with one woman.
Imagine her finding out thathe's having affairs
(10:05):
with hundreds of womenout there,
because that's the wayshe views it, you know?
And she feels hurt.
She feels rejected.
She feels inadequate.
You know, she feels likethere's no way she can compete.
Because, of course,the women in pornography
are always very young,and they have perfect
bodies, you know?
(10:25):
And of course, we all get older,you know, and our bodies change.
And that has anincredible impact on.
And so.
So what they end up experiencingis actually a form of trauma,
a form of post-traumatic stressdisorder, PTSD, that we now call
betrayal trauma.
And it can take yearsto heal from that because it
hits to the core.
No.
(10:46):
Where do I see more damagedone by pornography
use than to wives?
It really hurts themvery deeply.
And this is whatmen have to realize.
And I truly believeif every husband out there
really understood how this wouldhurt their wives,
no one would ever wantto touch porn, right?
It's like rat poison.
You don't want totouch it at all. Yeah,
and you know, that was myexperience, right?
(11:08):
I mean, I had a little fallduring our engagement period.
I was the one whocame out about it, but I saw,
and that was enoughto keep me away.
But for, you know, for this dayforward not going on for years,
but it's not typically magiclike that, doctor Peter, is it?
Getting marriedwill solve my problem.
No matter how it works.
Oh, no no no no,because the issue it's
(11:28):
not about sex.
You know, men think, well,you know, I'm looking at porn
because I want a lot of sex.
You know, I'm in my 20sand the hormones
are going crazy.
I want a lot of sex.
Now, if I get marriedand I can have sex
whenever I want, that'll solvethe problem.
Well, that's also temporary.
But most of the timethey go back
because the pornographyyou see is addiction.
It's not about sex,it's about escape.
(11:51):
That's what it is escapinginto a fantasy world
where you're in control.
Right.
So and it isn'tyou know, and it's, it's amazing
because I work with so many menwho are dealing
with this addictionand they feel so much shame.
They think that there issome type of sick pervert.
And I say, well, look,the behavior
is just the symptom.
That's all it is.
I'm not I'm not concernedabout that.
(12:11):
I want to get to the root of it.
What is driving it.
And 90% of the time that it hasnothing to do with porn,
you know, ornothing to do with sex.
People say, you know, gee,you're a sex
addiction therapist.
How can you sit thereand talk about sex all day?
I tell them, I don't,I really don't, you know,
some of some of the woundsthat are fueling this,
and that's whatwe're looking at.
And given the realitythat it isn't
(12:33):
primarily about sex.
So what is it that thebetrayed spouse,
typically the wife,needs to understand, in order
to experience healing?
Well, I think what has to happenwith pornography
is this incredibleeducational promotion,
very similar to what was donewith alcoholism.
(12:53):
You know, today when peoplelook at alcoholism,
they don't look at itas a moral failing.
They look at it as a diseasethat needs to be treated.
That's the waywe need to look at
pornography addictionor any addiction.
This is a diseasethat needs treatment.
And when we can do that,when we can
look at it as a disease,not a moral failing,
what we can do is wecan take the shame out.
(13:14):
Because that isthe most painful thing,
you know, not only for theaddicted person.
You know, he grantedhe's feeling a lot of shame
but spousesfeel a lot of shame too.
You knowwhat if people found out
about this.
What whatwhat people think of me?
What would they thinkof my husband?
You know, shame isis the number one factor
that keeps thingshidden in the dark and without
they just growing faster.
(13:35):
But when we look at thisas a disease,
not as a moral failing,then we can take out the shame
and we can treat it the wayit should be treated.
There we go. Yeah. Yeah.
No that makes so much sense.
Now here's one questionI want to ask about, you know,
guys who might be indenial or what have you.
And you've and you'vesaid this before, and I've
(13:58):
taken the three pillarsto purity class
that you guys did and integrityrestored, by the way.
And I, for any priestlistening, it's a must do.
It's a must do.
And I can we can helpyou get set up with that.
But, you know, there's you coulduse pornography but not have
an addiction. Yeah.
So how doeshow can someone discern
that for themselves?
Or can they discernthat for themselves?
Is it to the.
Is it to the therapistto discern that?
(14:19):
How does someone make that kindof determination?
I, I if it's a habitor an addiction or what
have you.
And again you're right.
You know, just like a personcan have an alcohol problem
and not be an alcoholic,a person can have
a porn problem or notbe a pornography addict,
you know?
But it really takes, you know,the eye of a trained
professional to determine that,you know, really talking
to a therapist that's trainedin the treatment of addictions
(14:41):
to really assess what we'redealing with here,
because it can be very trickywith this, you know.
But I'll tell you, you know,you know, the hallmark
of an addiction is not how oftenyou use the drug.
The hallmark is the factthat no matter how hard you try,
somehow you always keepcoming back to it.
Whether it'sa couple of weeks later
or a couple months later,you know, the fact
(15:03):
that you always somehowkeep coming back to it
tells you that, yeah,there's a problem here.
We may be looking at addictionand it should be checked
out by a professional.
Wow.
And that could so thatcould even be whether it's
once a day, once a week,once a month, Yeah.
Interesting.
Interesting that that'sthat's a different
take than I thinka lot of people would like,
you know, and think of itlike, oh, an addict
(15:24):
doing it all the time.
Not not necessarily.
And then and thenthere's other things too, right?
Like you're, you're hidingyour behavior.
You have particular shameabout your behavior.
I mean, granted,if someone doesn't have shame
about using pornography, right,our Catholic sensibility
would say, well, you should feelguilty, but, but that's
now that's really interesting.
(15:45):
You know, another aspectthen, for, Catholics
who asked about how pornographyaffects, marriages.
What about vocations,priesthood, religious life?
Oh, certainly.
Our consecrated peoplein the Catholic Church
aren't free from this either.
So what effectsdo you see there?
Well, just as if, pornographycan destroy a marriage.
It can destroy a vocation.
It really can, because ittotally consume a person's
(16:07):
life, you know?
And one of the thingsthat that we find
is that, you know,when it comes to
the experience of shame,you know, single people, yes,
they experience a lot of shame.
Married people,more shame priests
than religious.
They experience the most shamesure haunted their vocation
because of their positionin society.
(16:27):
They are heldto a much higher level
of accountability and morality.
All right.
Their standards of moralityare much higher, and people
judge them more harshlywith that much more harshly.
So, you know,when a person, you know,
whether it's a priestor religious comes to me
struggling with this addiction,they're dealing with
(16:48):
an incredible amount of shame.
But the sad part is,is because that shame,
most of them never seek helpand they will
often suffer in silence.
Now, oftentimes,as with any addiction, when that
tolerance develops,you need more of the drug
and the stronger form of itthat can lead to other types
of behaviors.
You know, acting outwith other people,
(17:08):
which can lead to, you know,if any of that ever
becomes public.
An incredible scandal.
And of course,if the other person
happens to be a minor,there could be legal issues.
It can be a disaster with this.
So for people, you know,priests and religious,
you know, there's somethere's much more shame,
(17:29):
and there's so much more,risk with that, so much more,
you know, and whenever someone,you know, a priest
really just comes to mefor help, boy, you know,
I say, you know, thank youfor coming forward.
Thank you.
This is so important, you know,and I give them so much credit
for doing thatbecause it took a lot.
(17:49):
They had to do a lot to overcomethe shame to seek help.
That's fantastic.
One of the things that I don't,I don't even know how
sensitive a questionthis might be, but for,
you know, for the priest,for the religious
who might just, you know, betypically caught up
in porn watching and might wantto take the step to come up,
come to their, their vicar,their bishop, their superior,
(18:13):
what what what do they like?
Is that is that the way to go?
Will they be given good helpor are there
strategies of of of of,helping these guys
that the institution hasright now that aren't effective?
Tell me a little bit about that.
Well, what I, what I tellI tell diocesan priest,
I talk to your vicar for clergy,for religious priests,
(18:34):
and, you know,religious men and women,
brothers and sisters and nuns.
Talk to your superior.
Because I tell you, you know,I've traveled
all over the countryand internationally.
I've spoken to vicars for clergyand bishops and superiors,
and they all want to helpthese people.
You know, there's this fear thatthat if I talk to my vicar
or superior, they're just goingto kick me out.
No, they don't wantto kick you out.
(18:56):
They want to give youthe help that you need.
All right.
And even and they arereally appreciative
when when someone comes forwardto seek help because again,
you know, you know,there could be a disaster
if nothing happens.
So when someone comes forward,they're not punished.
They're, you know, the vicaror the superior will say, okay,
let's get you some help here.
(19:16):
Let's get you some help.
And that's what happened.
So I tell these people,don't be afraid to speak up.
Don't be afraid to ask for help,because these people,
they want to help you.
That's that's really good.
And the factthat you went around
so much of the churchin the country
speaking about this,hopefully did a lot
to help these, you know, bishopsand vicars
for priests, understandwhat good treatments
(19:37):
and effective treatments areand what's really
not necessary. Right.
I could totally see a guy,a priest, being afraid of either
being lay aside or shipped offto Saint Luke's Institute
or something like that, where,you know, I mean,
if we know that that.
But but that probably isn'tto typically
this doesn't requireinpatient treatment, doesn't.
Know I, I'd say 90% of the timeoutpatient treatment
is the best for it, you know.
(19:57):
And let me tell you, you know,for the five years prior
to Covid, for about five years,I'm sure I'll go to conferences
a month all over the country,you know.
And what that tells meis the very fact that I,
that I was asked to speak atso many places tells me that
that bishops and vicarsand superiors, they want to know
how to help people,they want to know how to help.
That's what they're eager to do.
(20:18):
So I tell everybody out there,you know, these people,
they want to help you.
They want to help you.
And yeah,there may be some times
when residentialtreatment is needed.
So but 90% of the timeoutpatient actually is better
is the best treatment.
No. That's good.
That's great.
That's really good to hear.
So hopefully any,you know, any priests,
clergy pastors I mean,this is a problem
(20:39):
on the Protestant side too,you know, hear that and can,
you know, can takesome consolation from that.
I'd love to pivota little bit to,
just the reality thatthose of us
who struggle with this,you know, we pray
and obviously prayerand our spirituality,
our relationship with Godis so important.
But, you know, in thoseearly stages, you might be
tempted to pray, oh, God, pleasetake this away from me.
(21:02):
And for so many, God does not.
And yet could there be a valueto the fact
that it doesn't go poof?
Could there be a valueto the struggle?
But how can someonereconcile their faith
and the persistenceof the struggle?
And how can they find hope?
Okay, people often ask me this,you know,
and here's what I find.
You know, most people,when they're struggling
with this problem, they turnto God for help,
which they should.
(21:23):
But their prayeris usually something like, Lord,
take it away, take itaway, take it away.
But thenhe doesn't take it away.
And then theyget frustrated with God
and think that God doesn't care.
Well, the fact is,God does care.
The problem is that these peopleare going at it from the
wrong direction.
Instead of asking Godto take it away,
we invite got into it.
Walk with us through thishealing process.
(21:45):
This is where you encounterhis healing power, right?
And that means getting help.
How does God work in our livesthrough other people?
You know, I tell people,if you break your leg, yes,
you pray for healing,but you still have
to go to the hospitaland see a doctor
and get a cast on.
Right?
That's how God works.
So this idea that I'm goingto take care of it
by myself in private,I'm just going to pray it away.
(22:07):
That doesn't work right.
God doesn't work that way.
Right?
God works through other people,you know, and it's a process,
you know, and and Iand I tell people it's also
about understandingGod's permissive.
Well, you know, there's activewellness, permissive
well, you know, active well.
Well, the fact that you'rebreathing in a log that's God's
active will, permissive will.
Well, God doesn'twant people to suffer,
but he allows itbecause he knows he can bring
(22:28):
some good out of it.
Right?
So when we're walking with himevery day
in this healing process,guess what?
We're also developing a deeperrelationship with God.
And what's God's number onedesire for all of us
to be in a deep,intimate relationship with him.
And he's going to use everythinghe can, even our struggles
(22:49):
to do that.
So in this process,what are we going to encounter?
Not only the freedomfrom the addiction, but also a
deeper relationshipwith God, right.
So for me, that's a winwin situation.
If I absolutely.
Don't try to pray it away, it'snot going to work.
Invite God in to walk with youthrough this.
That's where you're really goingto experience the change.
That's amazing then, because nowwhat you have is that
(23:11):
you have a realization that thethe man who struggles
with purity,but is praying every day
is in a better positionin God's eyes and living
who he's supposed to be.
Right?
As people who are meant to bein relationship with God
than the man who's purebut may not
otherwise pray. Exactly.
And the fact is,when you're doing that,
you start to really noticehow God is actively
(23:31):
working in your life.
He's not abandoned you.
He's he's thereevery day with you, you know,
through the people you meet,through the encounters
you have all of that.
You're going to startto see that.
And again that this iswhere recovery actually gets
a bit exciting.
Definitely.
And not only do we need Godbut we need other people.
So what role would you sayaccountability plays
in overcoming this habitor this addiction?
(23:52):
And how can someone identifya good accountability partner?
And, and who might be the bestcandidate for an accountability
partner? Is it a priest?
Is it a therapist?
Is it a friend?
Is it somebody anonymous?
What do you think? Okay.
Well accountabilityis very important because again
you can't do this alone.
We have a saying there there areno lone Rangers in recovery.
You know, you need tosurround yourself
(24:12):
with other peoplethat understand the struggle
who are going to help you.
They're going to support youand keep you accountable,
and you do the same for them.
It's a team approach.
It's that team effortthat really makes it worthwhile.
And you ask what makes the bestaccountability partner?
My advice someone else who alsostruggles with this, all right.
Someone who really understandsor really knows, because what's
(24:34):
going to happen is if they get,a negative report, you know,
obviously they're going to becalling you up immediately.
And instead of, you know,waving their finger
at you and sayingwhat are you doing?
You terrible,you terrible person,
the very factthat they understand what you're
going through, they're goingto call you and you're going to
say, hey, what's going on?
Are you having a rough time?
Is there any waythat I can help?
(24:55):
What can I do?
All right.
That's what makes it effective.
Knowing that you've gotthese people are supporting you,
keeping you accountable.
All right.
But also there to support you.
And this is you know,and so having that there having
you can really having thatsupport is very important.
Now that's not the only thingI've had people come to me
say, well, you know, I'mjust going to get covered in ice
(25:16):
and that's it.
And that's goingto solve everything.
It's not, it's not,but it is a very
important componentto a comprehensive
recovery programthat is needed for this.
That does include support andaccountability.
Tony, tellus a little more about
how you would saysoftware or technology
like covenant.
Size fits into the process.
(25:37):
Okay.
Well, first of all, you know,it makes you really think
every timeyou pull out your phone
or you pull outyour laptop or tablet, you know,
what am I doing?
What am I doing?
Why am I here?
What am I doing?
You know,because if you know that that if
(25:57):
you know anything,you know, even slightly
questionable is goingto get reported.
You're going to thinkabout what you're doing
and where you're going and whyyou're doing this.
You know, am I am I bored?
Am I just going to doomscroll here?
You know, am I stressed out?
And I just want to disconnectfrom the world.
What am I doing?
And then, you know, you have toask yourself, okay,
(26:19):
is this the healthiestthing to do right now?
Is this the healthiest thing?
What should I be doing?
So this is it.
So so accountabilitykind of starts
the ball rolling in.
This thought processof where you're going
and what you're doing.
So so it's likeyou're not saying, okay,
well I'm not goingto look at porn
because my friendsgoing to find out about it.
(26:40):
You know, you're thinking about,okay, why am I doing this?
What is going on here?
So like I said,that accountability
is kind of a catalystto get you on the better path.
It's fantastic.
So let's let's kind of look atwe've talked
about the person who, you know,oh I can stop anytime
or whatever once somebody ishas the integrity to admit okay,
(27:01):
I have a problem here.
I don't knowif it's an addiction.
I don't know if it's a habit,but I need some help.
If that person doesn'tknow where to start,
where should they start?
Well, again, you know, it'sfinding a therapist
who's trained totreat addictions.
You know, could be someonelike myself, a certified sex
addiction therapist.
So if you see the letters CSatafter their name, that's someone
that can help.
(27:23):
You know, someone who is ajust even a basic certified
addiction therapist, you know,someone with CAC
up to their name can help.
But you kind ofhave to feel people out
because unfortunately,there's still are
a lot of mental healthprofessionals out there
that don't believethat pornography
addiction exists.
You know,they just kind of think
that, well, some peoplehave high libidos.
(27:43):
It's like, no.
So, but if you do get a CSatcertified sex
addiction therapist,you better believe
they understand.
Sexual addiction, and they canreally help you with that.
So finding someone like that,you know, and there's a website
that people can go to for that,the website is sex help.com.
Now sex up.com is run by theInternational Institute
(28:06):
for Trauma and AddictionsProfessionals.
This is the organizationthat certifies sex
addiction therapists.
I went through the wholecertification program.
Believe it or not,it takes three years to do this
to to finish the program.
But people who are trained inthis are thoroughly capable
of helping someone strugglingwith any type of
sexual addiction.
(28:26):
Now, you wonder, well, whatabout our Catholic faith?
Well, seasontrained to incorporate
a person's faith life into thehealing process.
All right, now, another websitethat people can go to is called
Catholic therapists.com.
And on there you can find localCatholic therapists
in your area.
And if you're lucky,it may seem like you're
looking for a needlein a haystack.
(28:47):
If you're lucky,you can find one
that is also a sexaddiction therapist.
You know, maybea little bit difficult,
but you may be able to do that.
So, but those are acouple of places where you can
find people that willreally help you
with this addiction.
And I'll tell you, you know,any good sex addiction therapist
is going to tell you, hey,if you're going
to be online anywhere, you needto be monitored.
(29:10):
All right.
That's it's a non-negotiablebecause we know that
that is what is neededfor effective recovery.
One of the things that,comes to my mind as we are
talking about this,and I think I told you
this story before, but I wasI got a call from
a diocesan worker who said, hey,do you know where
I can find a Catholic?
Sees that, and, you know,you came to mind immediately,
(29:32):
and then she's like, okay, well,just anymore,
I want as many options.
I mean, like you said,the needle in the haystack part
really came to mindbecause I wasn't able
to find a ton of them.
But I think the questionthat this brings up for me
is it's goodthat cats are trained
to incorporate your faith.
But for our listeners,Catholic, Protestant,
what have you,how important is it
(29:53):
that the therapist have the samefaith as you?
And I've heard differenttakes on this from different
therapists.
What's yours? Well,I believe it is very important,
because, you know, and I knowI unfortunately,
we have this divisionin the church
now between Catholicsand Protestants and.
Yes, you know, if youwhat I found that, you know,
(30:16):
and I have a lot had a lotof Protestant clients.
I actually have, you know,when they go to a therapist
who happens to bea Christian Protestant,
even if they're not of thesame denomination,
it still can work very wellbecause there is
a lot of overlap.
But when it comes toCatholic and Protestant,
you know, that can be difficultbecause, you know, it's
not that, you know,one is against the other,
(30:38):
it's just that you'recoming from two
totally different traditions.
I'm sure someone coming from,you know, like, let's say,
you know, a solid, you know,Orthodox Catholic background
may not be able to relatewell to a therapist who comes
from a SouthernBaptist background.
Sure.
You know, I'm sure two very,very different theologies there.
So that could bea challenge there.
(30:59):
It's not impossible.
I know we're in situationswhere that's all they can find.
Okay. That's great.
You know, if if the therapistand client are really willing
to work together on this,it can be successful for sure.
Definitely, definitely.
And, you know, in all my timeof seeing a therapist
individually, my therapist hasalways been Catholic.
But I did spend some timein a group therapy
(31:20):
even when I was in seminary,and that therapist
was was a Protestantand he was excellent.
It was a great therapist. Right.
So it can work.
But I mean, the choice of,you know,
going to a group first,I mean, that's a whole other
discussion.
But I mean, you know,at the end of the day,
it's going to be what'smost important to the person.
But if you can get somebody ofyour own faith,
that's definitely a bonus.
And the real key isokay finding what works
(31:42):
for some people.
Even though the declinein the therapist served
two different faiths,it actually works for them.
So sure.
Yeah, I tell people, don'tdiscount everything.
You know, try, trywhatever is out there.
And you me, you'd beamazed at what might happen.
Definitely, definitely.
All right, well,I just want to speak
to families and parentslistening for a while first.
What advice do you havefor, parents to protect
(32:04):
their childrenfrom early exposure?
And because we both knowthe average age
of first exposureis, nine years old.
And then also, how can,churches, better
support families in regardto this whole issue
of pornography?
Well, I think it boils downto education, you know, really
educating children.
You know,first of all, you know,
(32:25):
for young children,we really need to protect them
from this, you know, really do.
And there'sa lot of good resources
out there. There.
There's a wonderful bookcalled Good Pictures,
Bad Pictures.
In fact, there's a coupleof different versions of that
for different age groups.
And I tell parents,this is something
you really wantto read with your kids.
You know, don't just give themthe book and say, here,
look at this.
Now sit down and read with themto really help them understand
(32:45):
that the internet is great,but there's some there's
some bad stuff out there.
But but definitely.
So it's really abouteducating them and then it is
protecting them.
You know, there needs to be goodsafeguards, good filters.
You know, on the useand I tell parents that even
if you have good filterson the computer and the tablet
and the cell phone,you never leave your child alone
(33:07):
with the internet.
Never.
If they're going to be onlinedoing anything, you need to be
right with them,right next to them.
Right?
Because even the bestfilters in the world
are not foolproof.
You never knowwhat might get through.
So you really haveto be there for them
with that, you know?
So so you have to do thatfor teenagers.
You really have to educate themright now for teens
(33:28):
that the filtersdon't work anymore.
Then there'swhere accountability comes in.
But again, it's abouteducating them.
And I tell parentsthis isn't about sex, all right.
This is about anaddictive substance.
We need to treat thislike drugs and alcohol.
And we really need to teach themabout this.
What this is all about.
You know, now we alsoneed to teach them
about healthy sexualityand healthy relationships
(33:49):
and healthy intimacy.
That too, because we knowthat pornography
is going to twistthat and really warp
their their senseof what that is.
So, so it's about, you know,helping them understand
what are the dangersof the internet, the dangers
of pornography.
You know how it isan addictive substance
they want to avoid.
And then again, what ishealthy sexuality
and what are healthyrelationships all about?
(34:11):
So for it reallyfor the teenagers,
it's a lot of education,a lot of it.
Oh, fantastic.
Well I, I know we're comingclose on time here, so I'll ask
one more question.
You kind of a two part questionnumber one,
how can our listenersconnect with you and or just,
you know, learn moreabout your work, work,
or can they find youonline and then, what's,
(34:31):
word of encouragementyou might have with any
of our listeners who arestruggling with pornography?
What's somethingthey can do today?
The word of encouragementis if you're struggling,
you know, you can overcome this.
You really can.
But you can't do it alone.
You need to reach out for help.
That's the biggest thing.
You need to reach out for helpfor couples.
Let me give youthe research on this for couples
(34:51):
whose marriageshave been affected
by pornographyuse and addiction,
if you don't seek out help,there is a 75%
chance of divorce.
Wow.
If you do seek help,there's a 75% chance
that you're goingto heal your marriage
and actually come outeven better.
Wow.
So that's the research there.
Those are the stats.
(35:11):
Think about that.
Yeah.
Well, as as far as finding me,I have two websites.
There's my own personal website.
PeterKleponis.com.
There's also my practice,which is
IntegrityCounselingPA.com.
Right.
IntegrityCounselingPA, as inpennsylvania, .com.
(35:32):
And you can learn moreabout our practice.
Well, Doctor Peter,thank you so much
for taking the timeto talk with us today.
Thank youfor all of the education
you went throughand all the work you're doing on
this issue with private clientsand your practice with,
just in the churchthroughout the country
and throughout the world,having educated
so many of our leaders,with the work you do with the
(35:53):
the great guysand integrity restored,
definitely a friend.
Ministry of ours, of CovenantEyes.
Thank you so much for everythingyou've done.
And thank you for the time.
And to our listeners,thank you for listening.
If you liked this episodeagain, please
like subscribe, comment.
You get this, out therein the algorithm so that,
more and more peoplecan, hear about us here
(36:14):
about Doctor Peter.
So thank youso much for listening.
Keep fighting the good fightto stay pure, for all of us here
at Covenant Eyes,I am Theo McManigal.
God bless you.
Hello everyone and welcome tothe Covenant Eyes Podcast.
I am your host today,Theo McManigal I.
I'm the Catholic churchoutreach specialist.
Karen Potter's doing well.
We just thought we wouldgive her a little bit
of a break today.
So, you know, just before weget into today's episode, please
remember to like and subscribe,to our YouTube channel
to continue getting our podcastsand our other great content.
(00:29):
So I'm very excitedabout today's episode.
We have with us, DoctorPeter Kelponis who in the
Catholic world among therapistsis definitely, someone I see
as an expert on this issueof pornography.
So we are very, very happyto talk with him.
Doctor Peter, how are you today?
I'm doing great.
Thank you for having me today.
Oh, thank you for coming on.
(00:51):
So, so can you, just start by,And I know it could
be, you know, a long story,maybe even a podcast
episode in itself,but can you tell us
and our listeners how,you got into being a therapist
as well ashow you decided to study
more and specialize,in on this issue of pornography?
Well, well, bothboth were kind of,
(01:12):
sort of by accident,a little bit.
So, my, my original careerwas actually
in financial services, and,I realized early on that I'm
not a number cruncher.
But I liked helping people.
I like talking to people.
And helping themsolve their problems
and everything.
So, we're going back30 years ago now.
Well over 30 years.
I decided in my mid 20sto switch careers and retool.
(01:35):
I went back to school, and whenI had to go back to
school at night for a yearto get some undergrad credits
and then grad schoolfor three years at night, and
finally, ‘97 got my Mastersand, you know,
began this, this journeyas a therapy.
Proponents who in years later,I therapists is definitely,
someone I see as an experton this issue of
(01:56):
biography practice.
So we are very, very happyto talk with him.
Doctor Peter, how are you today?
And how I got into specializingin pronouns.
Thank you for coming on.
So, so can you, just start by,what I noticed is, a long story,
maybe even a podcastepisode in itself.
But can you tell usand our listeners how,
you got into being thereas well as were.
(02:18):
Struggling.
With how you decidedto study more and specialize?
In fact, for many of themarried men, it was actually
their wives that were calling upseeking help.
So I noticed this trend,and I decided to study it
a little further to really seewhat's going on out there.
So I did my research,and what I discovered was that
there was thiswhole epidemic of, internet
(02:39):
pornography addictiongoing on out there.
But nobody wantedto talk about it.
Know, I'm just pluggingin my computer here.
Nobody wanted to sayanything about it.
It was still a taboo subject,but I realized that,
hey, we got to dosomething about this.
There are people that need help.
So again, I went back to schooland read what I went through,
actually, four separatecertification programs
(03:02):
for the treatment and,sexual addiction.
And then I just sort of became,you know, the, the, the expert
in this field and,started doing a lot of
speaking on it.
What happened was in 2010,I was asked to give a conference
to the priestsof the Archdiocese of New York,
which is very interesting.
And, of course,when you do something
(03:23):
for the archdiocese in New York,it's like playing
at Caesars Palace.
Everyone finds out about.
The Archdioceseof the United States country
talking about this, and then,you know,
writing books and, and,you know, I created
a recovery program.
So, you know, it really becamea passion of mine to help people
who are strugglingwith this, both
the people addictedto pornography and often spouses
(03:45):
who felt really betrayed by thisand dealing with betrayal trauma
because of it.
So that that is sortof been my journey here.
And and your workon this is expansive.
You've written books,you've as you said,
you've been arounda lot of the country.
And the world,I think gives it right
just to speak on this.
And, yes.
(04:06):
Obviously you'reworking with clients
on, on this and, you're really,you know, having an impact
on the way the worldand the church approaches this.
You also, along withyour practice, you're involved,
with, our friend organization,integrity restored. Yes.
Which also is the nameof your book, Integrity
Restored (04:27):
Helping Catholic families win the battle
against pornography.
And I think, isn'tit also kind of the name
of your practice or anotherone of your website?
Okay.
Well, I use integrity a lot, so,my book was Integrity Restored.
And from that,we created our nonprofit
educational organizationand restored to, my, my
(04:49):
recovery program iscalled Integrity
Starts Here. Okay.
And my counselingpractice is integrity
counseling services.
So that's sort of thewhere the tongue kind of ties
everything together.
Which came first?
Was it the book?
The book came first.
What led you to write the book?
Well, actually,you know, going back, again,
(05:12):
I think, or on 2012,I was invited down to EWTN,
to be on that bank of the show,Women of Grace.
You know, we actually didseveral episodes
and it was really good.
And she asked me if I wouldwrite a brochure
for a little pamphlet for her,for her viewers
that she could send outon pornography
addiction and recovery.
(05:32):
Well, that pamphlet ended upbeing 100 pages.
So.
So she said, okay, well,we will publish it
as a little book.
And we did.
That was my first book,I believe it
was published in 2012.
It was called The Porn ActThe Pornography Epidemic
A Catholic Approach.
And it was great, but I realizedthere was so much more
that needed to be saidabout the so much more.
(05:54):
And that's when I set outto write my next book, which was
Integrity Restored.
And I didn't realize thatthat became sort
of a seminal work,because even though
there were a few other peoplethat were writing
about this, such as not fraudand so forth, I was the only,
you know, actual mentalhealth professional
that was working in this field,that was writing on this
in the Catholic world,there was a lot, a lot of work
(06:16):
done in the Protestant world.
You know, it's it's amazing.
You know, the Protestants,unfortunately, you know,
they're light yearsahead of us in this.
You know, we Catholics,we have to catch up.
Actually, fortunately, they are,because you know, they
they've gotsome really great models there
that I've worked with.
And in fact,in the Christian world,
most of my trainingin the treatment
of sexual addictionis from various,
Protestant, programs,which I am, I'm
(06:38):
eternally grateful for.
Definitely.
So so again, so I.
Including ushere at cover, denies.
Right.
I mean, we were primarilya Protestant program.
Yes, yes.
It's excellent.
Excellent.
So so I wroteIntegrity Restored.
And it was very well received.
You know, a couple of years ago,we actually did the
second edition of it.
So, so it's been really whenI've been able to update it
(06:59):
and I plan on continuingto update it.
And then from there, you know,I developed a program
for this for, helping Catholicmen struggling with pornography
addiction.
And that's where my nextbook came from.
And that was kind of interestingbecause as I was
working on developingthis program, I had a binder
(07:20):
that I had full of papersand handouts and articles
and all kinds of thingsthat I was using for the men
that I was working with.
And it was a verysuccessful program.
And one day I lookedat that banner, I thought,
oh my gosh,I've got a book here.
So so that became my,my sort of my workbook
integrity starts here, which ismy recovery program
(07:42):
for pornographyaddiction recovery.
And it's worked very well.
And I'm actually,going to be soon starting on,
on the new editionof that, again, because I
always new informationcoming out, new modalities
and things coming out.
So I always want wantednew stats. Yeah.
Yep. Updated.
And then I realized, you know,I was working
(08:03):
with a lot of couples, and therereally was not.
I'm not a lotof information out there
for Catholic coupleswhose marriages
had been affected by pornographyaddiction.
And out of that camemy fourth book, which is
called RestoringTrust A Couples Guide
to Getting Past Porn.
Published by our Sunday Visitor.
(08:23):
And, and that book was greatbecause in it
I discussed, you know,the addicted spouse
and his or her disease,the traumatized spouse and his
or her woundedness,and then also the
wounded marriage and what needsto be done to heal that.
So, you know, really coverseverything.
That's that that's needed there.
(08:43):
You know, what happensto a marriage
because of pornographyis an addiction, but also how to
heal that marriage.
So every step of the waywas just kind of noticing
these different needsthat were out there
and working on trying to fillthose needs.
So, you know,it's it's not like I,
you know, one daysat down and said, yeah,
(09:04):
I think I'd like to dowrite four books now it's just,
Rose, I figure, well,somebody's got to do it.
It might as well be me.
And that's how it all happened.
That's fantastic.
And we're eternally gratefulto you for it.
Let's elaborate ona little bit of the,
the last one you were talkingabout marriages, pornography
and marriages.
Tell us about how,pornography use
(09:25):
impacts marriages,how it damages marriages,
and a little bitof what you do to help
couples heal.
Pornography use hasan incredible impact
on marriages.
You know, because, you know,and it's a lot of it's
because how many women view it,you know, a man may view
pornography simply as imageson a computer screen.
You know, everybody does it.
What's the big deal?
(09:45):
But to his wife,those aren't images.
Those are other women.
All right.
So for them, this is a formof adultery.
It's a formof infidelity, you know.
You know, and you thinkhow how horrible it would be
for a woman to discover that hisher husband is having an
affair with one woman.
Imagine her finding out thathe's having affairs
(10:05):
with hundreds of womenout there,
because that's the wayshe views it, you know?
And she feels hurt.
She feels rejected.
She feels inadequate.
You know, she feels likethere's no way she can compete.
Because, of course,the women in pornography
are always very young,and they have perfect
bodies, you know?
(10:25):
And of course, we all get older,you know, and our bodies change.
And that has anincredible impact on.
And so.
So what they end up experiencingis actually a form of trauma,
a form of post-traumatic stressdisorder, PTSD, that we now call
betrayal trauma.
And it can take yearsto heal from that because it
hits to the core.
No.
(10:46):
Where do I see more damagedone by pornography
use than to wives?
It really hurts themvery deeply.
And this is whatmen have to realize.
And I truly believeif every husband out there
really understood how this wouldhurt their wives,
no one would ever wantto touch porn, right?
It's like rat poison.
You don't want totouch it at all. Yeah,
and you know, that was myexperience, right?
(11:08):
I mean, I had a little fallduring our engagement period.
I was the one whocame out about it, but I saw,
and that was enoughto keep me away.
But for, you know, for this dayforward not going on for years,
but it's not typically magiclike that, doctor Peter, is it?
Getting marriedwill solve my problem.
No matter how it works.
Oh, no no no no,because the issue it's
(11:28):
not about sex.
You know, men think, well,you know, I'm looking at porn
because I want a lot of sex.
You know, I'm in my 20sand the hormones
are going crazy.
I want a lot of sex.
Now, if I get marriedand I can have sex
whenever I want, that'll solvethe problem.
Well, that's also temporary.
But most of the timethey go back
because the pornographyyou see is addiction.
It's not about sex,it's about escape.
(11:51):
That's what it is escapinginto a fantasy world
where you're in control.
Right.
So and it isn'tyou know, and it's, it's amazing
because I work with so many menwho are dealing
with this addictionand they feel so much shame.
They think that there issome type of sick pervert.
And I say, well, look,the behavior
is just the symptom.
That's all it is.
I'm not I'm not concernedabout that.
(12:11):
I want to get to the root of it.
What is driving it.
And 90% of the time that it hasnothing to do with porn,
you know, ornothing to do with sex.
People say, you know, gee,you're a sex
addiction therapist.
How can you sit thereand talk about sex all day?
I tell them, I don't,I really don't, you know,
some of some of the woundsthat are fueling this,
and that's whatwe're looking at.
And given the realitythat it isn't
(12:33):
primarily about sex.
So what is it that thebetrayed spouse,
typically the wife,needs to understand, in order
to experience healing?
Well, I think what has to happenwith pornography
is this incredibleeducational promotion,
very similar to what was donewith alcoholism.
(12:53):
You know, today when peoplelook at alcoholism,
they don't look at itas a moral failing.
They look at it as a diseasethat needs to be treated.
That's the waywe need to look at
pornography addictionor any addiction.
This is a diseasethat needs treatment.
And when we can do that,when we can
look at it as a disease,not a moral failing,
what we can do is wecan take the shame out.
(13:14):
Because that isthe most painful thing,
you know, not only for theaddicted person.
You know, he grantedhe's feeling a lot of shame
but spousesfeel a lot of shame too.
You knowwhat if people found out
about this.
What whatwhat people think of me?
What would they thinkof my husband?
You know, shame isis the number one factor
that keeps thingshidden in the dark and without
they just growing faster.
(13:35):
But when we look at thisas a disease,
not as a moral failing,then we can take out the shame
and we can treat it the wayit should be treated.
There we go. Yeah. Yeah.
No that makes so much sense.
Now here's one questionI want to ask about, you know,
guys who might be indenial or what have you.
And you've and you'vesaid this before, and I've
(13:58):
taken the three pillarsto purity class
that you guys did and integrityrestored, by the way.
And I, for any priestlistening, it's a must do.
It's a must do.
And I can we can helpyou get set up with that.
But, you know, there's you coulduse pornography but not have
an addiction. Yeah.
So how doeshow can someone discern
that for themselves?
Or can they discernthat for themselves?
Is it to the.
Is it to the therapistto discern that?
(14:19):
How does someone make that kindof determination?
I, I if it's a habitor an addiction or what
have you.
And again you're right.
You know, just like a personcan have an alcohol problem
and not be an alcoholic,a person can have
a porn problem or notbe a pornography addict,
you know?
But it really takes, you know,the eye of a trained
professional to determine that,you know, really talking
to a therapist that's trainedin the treatment of addictions
(14:41):
to really assess what we'redealing with here,
because it can be very trickywith this, you know.
But I'll tell you, you know,you know, the hallmark
of an addiction is not how oftenyou use the drug.
The hallmark is the factthat no matter how hard you try,
somehow you always keepcoming back to it.
Whether it'sa couple of weeks later
or a couple months later,you know, the fact
(15:03):
that you always somehowkeep coming back to it
tells you that, yeah,there's a problem here.
We may be looking at addictionand it should be checked
out by a professional.
Wow.
And that could so thatcould even be whether it's
once a day, once a week,once a month, Yeah.
Interesting.
Interesting that that'sthat's a different
take than I thinka lot of people would like,
you know, and think of itlike, oh, an addict
(15:24):
doing it all the time.
Not not necessarily.
And then and thenthere's other things too, right?
Like you're, you're hidingyour behavior.
You have particular shameabout your behavior.
I mean, granted,if someone doesn't have shame
about using pornography, right,our Catholic sensibility
would say, well, you should feelguilty, but, but that's
now that's really interesting.
(15:45):
You know, another aspectthen, for, Catholics
who asked about how pornographyaffects, marriages.
What about vocations,priesthood, religious life?
Oh, certainly.
Our consecrated peoplein the Catholic Church
aren't free from this either.
So what effectsdo you see there?
Well, just as if, pornographycan destroy a marriage.
It can destroy a vocation.
It really can, because ittotally consume a person's
(16:07):
life, you know?
And one of the thingsthat that we find
is that, you know,when it comes to
the experience of shame,you know, single people, yes,
they experience a lot of shame.
Married people,more shame priests
than religious.
They experience the most shamesure haunted their vocation
because of their positionin society.
(16:27):
They are heldto a much higher level
of accountability and morality.
All right.
Their standards of moralityare much higher, and people
judge them more harshlywith that much more harshly.
So, you know,when a person, you know,
whether it's a priestor religious comes to me
struggling with this addiction,they're dealing with
(16:48):
an incredible amount of shame.
But the sad part is,is because that shame,
most of them never seek helpand they will
often suffer in silence.
Now, oftentimes,as with any addiction, when that
tolerance develops,you need more of the drug
and the stronger form of itthat can lead to other types
of behaviors.
You know, acting outwith other people,
(17:08):
which can lead to, you know,if any of that ever
becomes public.
An incredible scandal.
And of course,if the other person
happens to be a minor,there could be legal issues.
It can be a disaster with this.
So for people, you know,priests and religious,
you know, there's somethere's much more shame,
(17:29):
and there's so much more,risk with that, so much more,
you know, and whenever someone,you know, a priest
really just comes to mefor help, boy, you know,
I say, you know, thank youfor coming forward.
Thank you.
This is so important, you know,and I give them so much credit
for doing thatbecause it took a lot.
(17:49):
They had to do a lot to overcomethe shame to seek help.
That's fantastic.
One of the things that I don't,I don't even know how
sensitive a questionthis might be, but for,
you know, for the priest,for the religious
who might just, you know, betypically caught up
in porn watching and might wantto take the step to come up,
come to their, their vicar,their bishop, their superior,
(18:13):
what what what do they like?
Is that is that the way to go?
Will they be given good helpor are there
strategies of of of of,helping these guys
that the institution hasright now that aren't effective?
Tell me a little bit about that.
Well, what I, what I tellI tell diocesan priest,
I talk to your vicar for clergy,for religious priests,
(18:34):
and, you know,religious men and women,
brothers and sisters and nuns.
Talk to your superior.
Because I tell you, you know,I've traveled
all over the countryand internationally.
I've spoken to vicars for clergyand bishops and superiors,
and they all want to helpthese people.
You know, there's this fear thatthat if I talk to my vicar
or superior, they're just goingto kick me out.
No, they don't wantto kick you out.
(18:56):
They want to give youthe help that you need.
All right.
And even and they arereally appreciative
when when someone comes forwardto seek help because again,
you know, you know,there could be a disaster
if nothing happens.
So when someone comes forward,they're not punished.
They're, you know, the vicaror the superior will say, okay,
let's get you some help here.
(19:16):
Let's get you some help.
And that's what happened.
So I tell these people,don't be afraid to speak up.
Don't be afraid to ask for help,because these people,
they want to help you.
That's that's really good.
And the factthat you went around
so much of the churchin the country
speaking about this,hopefully did a lot
to help these, you know, bishopsand vicars
for priests, understandwhat good treatments
(19:37):
and effective treatments areand what's really
not necessary. Right.
I could totally see a guy,a priest, being afraid of either
being lay aside or shipped offto Saint Luke's Institute
or something like that, where,you know, I mean,
if we know that that.
But but that probably isn'tto typically
this doesn't requireinpatient treatment, doesn't.
Know I, I'd say 90% of the timeoutpatient treatment
is the best for it, you know.
(19:57):
And let me tell you, you know,for the five years prior
to Covid, for about five years,I'm sure I'll go to conferences
a month all over the country,you know.
And what that tells meis the very fact that I,
that I was asked to speak atso many places tells me that
that bishops and vicarsand superiors, they want to know
how to help people,they want to know how to help.
That's what they're eager to do.
(20:18):
So I tell everybody out there,you know, these people,
they want to help you.
They want to help you.
And yeah,there may be some times
when residentialtreatment is needed.
So but 90% of the timeoutpatient actually is better
is the best treatment.
No. That's good.
That's great.
That's really good to hear.
So hopefully any,you know, any priests,
clergy pastors I mean,this is a problem
(20:39):
on the Protestant side too,you know, hear that and can,
you know, can takesome consolation from that.
I'd love to pivota little bit to,
just the reality thatthose of us
who struggle with this,you know, we pray
and obviously prayerand our spirituality,
our relationship with Godis so important.
But, you know, in thoseearly stages, you might be
tempted to pray, oh, God, pleasetake this away from me.
(21:02):
And for so many, God does not.
And yet could there be a valueto the fact
that it doesn't go poof?
Could there be a valueto the struggle?
But how can someonereconcile their faith
and the persistenceof the struggle?
And how can they find hope?
Okay, people often ask me this,you know,
and here's what I find.
You know, most people,when they're struggling
with this problem, they turnto God for help,
which they should.
(21:23):
But their prayeris usually something like, Lord,
take it away, take itaway, take it away.
But thenhe doesn't take it away.
And then theyget frustrated with God
and think that God doesn't care.
Well, the fact is,God does care.
The problem is that these peopleare going at it from the
wrong direction.
Instead of asking Godto take it away,
we invite got into it.
Walk with us through thishealing process.
(21:45):
This is where you encounterhis healing power, right?
And that means getting help.
How does God work in our livesthrough other people?
You know, I tell people,if you break your leg, yes,
you pray for healing,but you still have
to go to the hospitaland see a doctor
and get a cast on.
Right?
That's how God works.
So this idea that I'm goingto take care of it
by myself in private,I'm just going to pray it away.
(22:07):
That doesn't work right.
God doesn't work that way.
Right?
God works through other people,you know, and it's a process,
you know, and and Iand I tell people it's also
about understandingGod's permissive.
Well, you know, there's activewellness, permissive
well, you know, active well.
Well, the fact that you'rebreathing in a log that's God's
active will, permissive will.
Well, God doesn'twant people to suffer,
but he allows itbecause he knows he can bring
(22:28):
some good out of it.
Right?
So when we're walking with himevery day
in this healing process,guess what?
We're also developing a deeperrelationship with God.
And what's God's number onedesire for all of us
to be in a deep,intimate relationship with him.
And he's going to use everythinghe can, even our struggles
(22:49):
to do that.
So in this process,what are we going to encounter?
Not only the freedomfrom the addiction, but also a
deeper relationshipwith God, right.
So for me, that's a winwin situation.
If I absolutely.
Don't try to pray it away, it'snot going to work.
Invite God in to walk with youthrough this.
That's where you're really goingto experience the change.
That's amazing then, because nowwhat you have is that
(23:11):
you have a realization that thethe man who struggles
with purity,but is praying every day
is in a better positionin God's eyes and living
who he's supposed to be.
Right?
As people who are meant to bein relationship with God
than the man who's purebut may not
otherwise pray. Exactly.
And the fact is,when you're doing that,
you start to really noticehow God is actively
(23:31):
working in your life.
He's not abandoned you.
He's he's thereevery day with you, you know,
through the people you meet,through the encounters
you have all of that.
You're going to startto see that.
And again that this iswhere recovery actually gets
a bit exciting.
Definitely.
And not only do we need Godbut we need other people.
So what role would you sayaccountability plays
in overcoming this habitor this addiction?
(23:52):
And how can someone identifya good accountability partner?
And, and who might be the bestcandidate for an accountability
partner? Is it a priest?
Is it a therapist?
Is it a friend?
Is it somebody anonymous?
What do you think? Okay.
Well accountabilityis very important because again
you can't do this alone.
We have a saying there there areno lone Rangers in recovery.
You know, you need tosurround yourself
(24:12):
with other peoplethat understand the struggle
who are going to help you.
They're going to support youand keep you accountable,
and you do the same for them.
It's a team approach.
It's that team effortthat really makes it worthwhile.
And you ask what makes the bestaccountability partner?
My advice someone else who alsostruggles with this, all right.
Someone who really understandsor really knows, because what's
(24:34):
going to happen is if they get,a negative report, you know,
obviously they're going to becalling you up immediately.
And instead of, you know,waving their finger
at you and sayingwhat are you doing?
You terrible,you terrible person,
the very factthat they understand what you're
going through, they're goingto call you and you're going to
say, hey, what's going on?
Are you having a rough time?
Is there any waythat I can help?
(24:55):
What can I do?
All right.
That's what makes it effective.
Knowing that you've gotthese people are supporting you,
keeping you accountable.
All right.
But also there to support you.
And this is you know,and so having that there having
you can really having thatsupport is very important.
Now that's not the only thingI've had people come to me
say, well, you know, I'mjust going to get covered in ice
(25:16):
and that's it.
And that's goingto solve everything.
It's not, it's not,but it is a very
important componentto a comprehensive
recovery programthat is needed for this.
That does include support andaccountability.
Tony, tellus a little more about
how you would saysoftware or technology
like covenant.
Size fits into the process.
(25:37):
Okay.
Well, first of all, you know,it makes you really think
every timeyou pull out your phone
or you pull outyour laptop or tablet, you know,
what am I doing?
What am I doing?
Why am I here?
What am I doing?
You know,because if you know that that if
(25:57):
you know anything,you know, even slightly
questionable is goingto get reported.
You're going to thinkabout what you're doing
and where you're going and whyyou're doing this.
You know, am I am I bored?
Am I just going to doomscroll here?
You know, am I stressed out?
And I just want to disconnectfrom the world.
What am I doing?
And then, you know, you have toask yourself, okay,
(26:19):
is this the healthiestthing to do right now?
Is this the healthiest thing?
What should I be doing?
So this is it.
So so accountabilitykind of starts
the ball rolling in.
This thought processof where you're going
and what you're doing.
So so it's likeyou're not saying, okay,
well I'm not goingto look at porn
because my friendsgoing to find out about it.
(26:40):
You know, you're thinking about,okay, why am I doing this?
What is going on here?
So like I said,that accountability
is kind of a catalystto get you on the better path.
It's fantastic.
So let's let's kind of look atwe've talked
about the person who, you know,oh I can stop anytime
or whatever once somebody ishas the integrity to admit okay,
(27:01):
I have a problem here.
I don't knowif it's an addiction.
I don't know if it's a habit,but I need some help.
If that person doesn'tknow where to start,
where should they start?
Well, again, you know, it'sfinding a therapist
who's trained totreat addictions.
You know, could be someonelike myself, a certified sex
addiction therapist.
So if you see the letters CSatafter their name, that's someone
that can help.
(27:23):
You know, someone who is ajust even a basic certified
addiction therapist, you know,someone with CAC
up to their name can help.
But you kind ofhave to feel people out
because unfortunately,there's still are
a lot of mental healthprofessionals out there
that don't believethat pornography
addiction exists.
You know,they just kind of think
that, well, some peoplehave high libidos.
(27:43):
It's like, no.
So, but if you do get a CSatcertified sex
addiction therapist,you better believe
they understand.
Sexual addiction, and they canreally help you with that.
So finding someone like that,you know, and there's a website
that people can go to for that,the website is sex help.com.
Now sex up.com is run by theInternational Institute
(28:06):
for Trauma and AddictionsProfessionals.
This is the organizationthat certifies sex
addiction therapists.
I went through the wholecertification program.
Believe it or not,it takes three years to do this
to to finish the program.
But people who are trained inthis are thoroughly capable
of helping someone strugglingwith any type of
sexual addiction.
(28:26):
Now, you wonder, well, whatabout our Catholic faith?
Well, seasontrained to incorporate
a person's faith life into thehealing process.
All right, now, another websitethat people can go to is called
Catholic therapists.com.
And on there you can find localCatholic therapists
in your area.
And if you're lucky,it may seem like you're
looking for a needlein a haystack.
(28:47):
If you're lucky,you can find one
that is also a sexaddiction therapist.
You know, maybea little bit difficult,
but you may be able to do that.
So, but those are acouple of places where you can
find people that willreally help you
with this addiction.
And I'll tell you, you know,any good sex addiction therapist
is going to tell you, hey,if you're going
to be online anywhere, you needto be monitored.
(29:10):
All right.
That's it's a non-negotiablebecause we know that
that is what is neededfor effective recovery.
One of the things that,comes to my mind as we are
talking about this,and I think I told you
this story before, but I wasI got a call from
a diocesan worker who said, hey,do you know where
I can find a Catholic?
Sees that, and, you know,you came to mind immediately,
(29:32):
and then she's like, okay, well,just anymore,
I want as many options.
I mean, like you said,the needle in the haystack part
really came to mindbecause I wasn't able
to find a ton of them.
But I think the questionthat this brings up for me
is it's goodthat cats are trained
to incorporate your faith.
But for our listeners,Catholic, Protestant,
what have you,how important is it
(29:53):
that the therapist have the samefaith as you?
And I've heard differenttakes on this from different
therapists.
What's yours? Well,I believe it is very important,
because, you know, and I knowI unfortunately,
we have this divisionin the church
now between Catholicsand Protestants and.
Yes, you know, if youwhat I found that, you know,
(30:16):
and I have a lot had a lotof Protestant clients.
I actually have, you know,when they go to a therapist
who happens to bea Christian Protestant,
even if they're not of thesame denomination,
it still can work very wellbecause there is
a lot of overlap.
But when it comes toCatholic and Protestant,
you know, that can be difficultbecause, you know, it's
not that, you know,one is against the other,
(30:38):
it's just that you'recoming from two
totally different traditions.
I'm sure someone coming from,you know, like, let's say,
you know, a solid, you know,Orthodox Catholic background
may not be able to relatewell to a therapist who comes
from a SouthernBaptist background.
Sure.
You know, I'm sure two very,very different theologies there.
So that could bea challenge there.
(30:59):
It's not impossible.
I know we're in situationswhere that's all they can find.
Okay. That's great.
You know, if if the therapistand client are really willing
to work together on this,it can be successful for sure.
Definitely, definitely.
And, you know, in all my timeof seeing a therapist
individually, my therapist hasalways been Catholic.
But I did spend some timein a group therapy
(31:20):
even when I was in seminary,and that therapist
was was a Protestantand he was excellent.
It was a great therapist. Right.
So it can work.
But I mean, the choice of,you know,
going to a group first,I mean, that's a whole other
discussion.
But I mean, you know,at the end of the day,
it's going to be what'smost important to the person.
But if you can get somebody ofyour own faith,
that's definitely a bonus.
And the real key isokay finding what works
(31:42):
for some people.
Even though the declinein the therapist served
two different faiths,it actually works for them.
So sure.
Yeah, I tell people, don'tdiscount everything.
You know, try, trywhatever is out there.
And you me, you'd beamazed at what might happen.
Definitely, definitely.
All right, well,I just want to speak
to families and parentslistening for a while first.
What advice do you havefor, parents to protect
(32:04):
their childrenfrom early exposure?
And because we both knowthe average age
of first exposureis, nine years old.
And then also, how can,churches, better
support families in regardto this whole issue
of pornography?
Well, I think it boils downto education, you know, really
educating children.
You know,first of all, you know,
(32:25):
for young children,we really need to protect them
from this, you know, really do.
And there'sa lot of good resources
out there. There.
There's a wonderful bookcalled Good Pictures,
Bad Pictures.
In fact, there's a coupleof different versions of that
for different age groups.
And I tell parents,this is something
you really wantto read with your kids.
You know, don't just give themthe book and say, here,
look at this.
Now sit down and read with themto really help them understand
(32:45):
that the internet is great,but there's some there's
some bad stuff out there.
But but definitely.
So it's really abouteducating them and then it is
protecting them.
You know, there needs to be goodsafeguards, good filters.
You know, on the useand I tell parents that even
if you have good filterson the computer and the tablet
and the cell phone,you never leave your child alone
(33:07):
with the internet.
Never.
If they're going to be onlinedoing anything, you need to be
right with them,right next to them.
Right?
Because even the bestfilters in the world
are not foolproof.
You never knowwhat might get through.
So you really haveto be there for them
with that, you know?
So so you have to do thatfor teenagers.
You really have to educate themright now for teens
(33:28):
that the filtersdon't work anymore.
Then there'swhere accountability comes in.
But again, it's abouteducating them.
And I tell parentsthis isn't about sex, all right.
This is about anaddictive substance.
We need to treat thislike drugs and alcohol.
And we really need to teach themabout this.
What this is all about.
You know, now we alsoneed to teach them
about healthy sexualityand healthy relationships
(33:49):
and healthy intimacy.
That too, because we knowthat pornography
is going to twistthat and really warp
their their senseof what that is.
So, so it's about, you know,helping them understand
what are the dangersof the internet, the dangers
of pornography.
You know how it isan addictive substance
they want to avoid.
And then again, what ishealthy sexuality
and what are healthyrelationships all about?
(34:11):
So for it reallyfor the teenagers,
it's a lot of education,a lot of it.
Oh, fantastic.
Well I, I know we're comingclose on time here, so I'll ask
one more question.
You kind of a two part questionnumber one,
how can our listenersconnect with you and or just,
you know, learn moreabout your work, work,
or can they find youonline and then, what's,
(34:31):
word of encouragementyou might have with any
of our listeners who arestruggling with pornography?
What's somethingthey can do today?
The word of encouragementis if you're struggling,
you know, you can overcome this.
You really can.
But you can't do it alone.
You need to reach out for help.
That's the biggest thing.
You need to reach out for helpfor couples.
Let me give youthe research on this for couples
(34:51):
whose marriageshave been affected
by pornographyuse and addiction,
if you don't seek out help,there is a 75%
chance of divorce.
Wow.
If you do seek help,there's a 75% chance
that you're goingto heal your marriage
and actually come outeven better.
Wow.
So that's the research there.
Those are the stats.
(35:11):
Think about that.
Yeah.
Well, as as far as finding me,I have two websites.
There's my own personal website.
PeterKleponis.com.
There's also my practice,which is
IntegrityCounselingPA.com.
Right.
IntegrityCounselingPA, as inpennsylvania, .com.
(35:32):
And you can learn moreabout our practice.
Well, Doctor Peter,thank you so much
for taking the timeto talk with us today.
Thank youfor all of the education
you went throughand all the work you're doing on
this issue with private clientsand your practice with,
just in the churchthroughout the country
and throughout the world,having educated
so many of our leaders,with the work you do with the
(35:53):
the great guysand integrity restored,
definitely a friend.
Ministry of ours, of CovenantEyes.
Thank you so much for everythingyou've done.
And thank you for the time.
And to our listeners,thank you for listening.
If you liked this episodeagain, please
like subscribe, comment.
You get this, out therein the algorithm so that,
more and more peoplecan, hear about us here
(36:14):
about Doctor Peter.
So thank youso much for listening.
Keep fighting the good fightto stay pure, for all of us here
at Covenant Eyes,I am Theo McManigal.
God bless you.
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