December 10, 2025 • 28 mins
In this powerful episode of the Covenant Eyes Podcast, host Karen Potter welcomes Garry Ingraham, co-founder of the Love & Truth Network, for an honest and hope-filled discussion on healing, identity, belonging, and the role of the church in restoring lives.
Garry shares his deeply personal story of early trauma, emotional isolation, and identity confusion—and how God brought him into genuine freedom and a renewed sense of purpose. His testimony offers hope for anyone who feels stuck, overwhelmed, or alone in their struggles.
Together, Karen and Garry explore:
• Why early experiences and emotional wounds often shape later behaviors
• How shame, secrecy, and isolation keep people trapped
• Why genuine discipleship and spiritual family are crucial for healing
• How the church can move from silence to restoration
• The difference between behavioral cycles and true transformation
• Why identity in God—not culture—anchors lasting change
• How healthy, vulnerable community helps break old patterns
• Practical, realistic steps for finding support and walking in freedom
Garry also explains the mission of Love & Truth Network, which equips churches to restore relational wholeness and strengthen biblical identity in a culture filled with confusion.
If you've ever felt hopeless, disconnected, or unsure where to start, this conversation offers clarity, compassion, and a path forward.
✨ Learn more about Garry & Melissa Ingraham:
https://LoveAndTruthNetwork.com
Love & Truth Network Podcast (video + audio): https://LoveAndTruthNetwork.com/podcast
If today's episode encouraged you, please like, comment, and subscribe. Your engagement helps more people discover hope and healing.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
Hey everybody, welcome backto the Covenant Eyess Podcast.
So good to have you joining usfor this episode.
We have got a new friendjoining us, Garry
Ingraham from the Love &Truth Network is here
for a great discussion.
You're going to love learningabout his ministry
and his testimony.
So stay with us.
Make sure you like and subscribeto the podcast.
(00:26):
It's amazing to mehow many of you listen
and forget to hit subscribe.
Very importantto make sure you do those stats.
It lets us know that you arewith us on this journey
and with that, Garry,welcome to the podcast.
Thanks so much, Karen.
It's great to bewith you. Absolutely.
Well we are.
I know you've been alongtime friend with Sam Black
for many years,but this is actually
(00:47):
the first chanceI've had to meet you
and learn moreabout your ministry.
So for our listeners out there,can you share a little bit
about who you areand the Ministry of Love
& Truth Network?
Sure.
So about 12 years ago, my wifeMelissa and I founded Love &
Truth Network.
I had been on pastoral staffat a large church
in upstate New Yorkfor about 12 years.
Before that, and my wifeis a licensed
(01:09):
Christian counselor.
I've been doing thatfor about 20 years or so,
and prior to that,both of us come out of,
sexual brokenness,identity confusion,
those kinds of things.
But I, at a very early age,the age of 5 or 6 or so,
way before the internet,some older neighborhood boys
thought it would be great funto invite me over
to their place to playafter school and, introduced me
(01:30):
to their dad's hardcore porn,and their parents
weren't around, and and that wasa pivotal shift in my life
as well as their kind of sexualacting out together and
and just the, the bothearly sexualization
and then the, the sexual abuse,that occurred as well.
And it was a one timeevent in terms of the abuse.
And, but the pornographywas something that lingered
(01:52):
and really picked upand became an addiction,
coming into pubertyand long after that.
So very, very, impactful event,unfortunately, in
such negative ways in mylife at such an early age.
Oh, gosh, I'm sosorry to hear that.
And you know, your story isnot unique.
I wish that I could say thatit is, but so many people
(02:12):
have similar experiences.
And then, you know,that early exposure to
abuse, trauma and then alsothe pornography really leads
people on a journeythat they hadn't
planned for their life.
So talk to us a little bitabout how that experience,
and your wife's experienceswith sexual brokenness
really led you to creatingthis ministry.
(02:34):
And what isthe ministry's goals?
Yes.
Well, for me, thethe early sexualization
and a lot of that, experienceas well as kind
of coupled with a lack of realemotional connection
with my father and alsoa lot of, brokenness in
regard to mefeeling like I didn't
fit into the world of boys.
I felt different thanI just didn't.
(02:56):
I wasn't your typical roughand tumble kind of boy,
and so was easilykind of ostracized and bullied
in those kinds of thingsin school, sometimes
even in church,settings as well.
And, and so that just ledinto all kinds of confusion
and eventually, led me to whereI just left Bible college,
and I thought, you know what?
God, I hate you.
I hate your church.
I want nothingto do with this anymore.
(03:16):
I've been begging for for youto help me in these areas
where I'm strugglingand I feel like you're not
doing anything to help me.
What I realizednow, looking back,
is God's intention.
Apart from maybea miraculous move, his intention
is that we're typicallydiscipled and that we
grow up around other believerswho are open and vulnerable
and are able to because ofthat vulnerability
(03:37):
and because of, living inan an open environment with one
another in termsof sharing our stories,
those kinds of thingsthat young people and adults
can find help from oneanother's who who have been
in those same situations.
But there was nothingbut silence around all of this
as I was growing up.
And so I just feltleft to myself
to try to figure it all out.
My my wife discovered herfather's, porn
(03:59):
in in their garage,stashed away somewhere
when she was about 12 or so.
And that felt bothincredibly defiling
and also intriguing.
And and so she really grew upfeeling like
with an older brotherand her dad kind of absent
so much in offsort of having affairs
and things like that.
On her mother.
She just grew up to feel likebeing a woman is is a liability.
(04:21):
It's just it's it feels unsafe.
And so she got into three longterm relationships with men,
was engaged to be married,and eventually broke off
that engagement and got involvedwith a woman, actually,
at George Washington University,where she was attending.
And for me, my story was leavingBible college, finding my
first gay bar, andand feeling like, this is
(04:43):
I finally found my people.
I finally fit in somewhereand, my, my book cover for those
that are watching, behind me,my book called am I Gay?
Really tells that story.
And, and up to the pointof coming to genuine faith,
even though I grew upin a Christian home,
coming to genuinefaith at the age of 23.
Wow, that is quitea testimony and a story.
(05:03):
I thank you for being vulnerableand sharing that.
And thank you for writingthe book as well.
As I'm sureit's been very helpful
to so many out there,because there are so many
that feel the way that you didduring that period of time.
So talk to us a little bitabout you know,
you mentioned thisin your story, but you felt
really alone there.
You know, the church is supposedto be a place
(05:24):
where we can find thathope in that healing and,
and share with others.
But in so many ways,you're not unique in that story
where you felt likethat was not a safe place to go.
So talk to me a little bitabout what the church
is getting wrongwhen it comes to that.
Well, the reason our ministryexists, Love & Truth
Network is to equipthe local church
(05:45):
across the nation on how to haveeffective ministry in the space
of restoring all kindsof sexual wholeness or restoring
sexual wholeness, restoringrelational wholeness
and biblical identity.
So we oftentimes say same root,different fruit, the truth is,
is that so many I mean, the vastmajority of
people in the church,Christ followers
(06:05):
even have are dealingwith as human beings,
dealing with some formof sexual brokenness,
even if it's a past issue.
But often it'sa current issue as well.
And and it's notusually funneled
in identity confusion,but it's it's more of
just utilizingpornography or hookup culture
or, sex before marriageor even adultery.
(06:26):
Those things are very much aliveand well in the church.
The statistics show, sadly,that those are very much alive.
And I think the reason forthat is our kind of unspoken
environment of don'task, don't tell.
You know, we just we keep we'lltalk about certain things,
but we keep most of the private,shameful things to ourselves
where no one finds outabout them.
It's exactly the oppositeof the prescription,
(06:48):
the one prescription Godhas given us
for healing of thesekinds of matters is James 516.
Confess your sins to one anotherand pray for each other,
that you might be healed.
The prayer of a righteousman accomplishes much, or woman
accomplishes much.
And yet, honestly,the truth is, Karen,
I think routinelywe as Christians totally ignore
and disobey that scripture.
All the time.
(07:08):
And it's evidenced by the fact,just for your listeners,
when is the last time any of ushave sat down with a trusted,
brother or sister inChrist and opened up and shared,
the, the litany of ourof our struggles,
whatever those may beand struggles and really
received prayer andand it's not a once and done.
It's a it's meant to be a rhythmof how we live our lives
(07:30):
together.
Yeah. You are so right.
You know, and I just,I think to myself, like,
has this always been an issuewithin the church
or is it a newer issue that,you know, maybe these are just
tough issues that the churchjust doesn't talk about?
Well, or is this somethingthat's changed in
recent history?
Do you have anythoughts on that?
(07:50):
Well, I think it'salways been an issue.
I mean, you can look backto the practically
the beginning of timeand sexual brokenness were huge
issues and coupled.
You know, when you look at whatIsrael stumbled over
over and over againthat led them into captivity
and and then God had mercyand brought them back
and then back intocaptivity again.
It was almost alwaysthe coupling of idolatry
and sexual immorality.
(08:11):
And when you evenconsider Solomon the wisest man
who ever lived, he began so welland was so blessed by God.
And yet the end of his life.
God is not happy with Solomonbecause of those two things
idolatry, sexual immorality.
He allowed his heartto be turned away from God
toward these other things.
And so we see thethe example of that.
When I was a kid growing up,you know, I assumed
(08:32):
it was just me.
Like I was thisuniquely broken freak.
And the church had to keep itall to myself.
And of course, I believe thatbecause no one was saying
a thing about it.
But as I became an adult insome other people
were kind of sharing.
And I grew up in a tinycountry church,
but there were other they weremen who were dealing
with pornography issuesand, and we're we're struggling
with those things.
(08:53):
And there was never a mentionof any of that.
There was nevera mention of freedom or hope or
any of those kinds of things.
So it's not brand new,but I think the
proliferation of itwith the internet,
a couple clicks and the,the most unimaginable stuff,
what happened to meis child's play.
It's a walk at thebeach practically.
And I'm not I'm not minimizingwhat happened to me.
But compared to what kidsare exposed to today
(09:13):
in and outside the church, it isit is exponentially worse
today than it was backwhen I was a young person.
You are so right.
Yeah, absolutely.
My heart really breaksfor our young
people today because, I mean,so much is being thrown at them
and not by choice.
And it's way worsethan all the things
that, you know, we hadaccess to in the past.
(09:35):
So yeah, I would definitelyagree with that.
So as you'reworking with the church,
talk to us a little bitabout how your ministry
is helping to kind ofchange the tide and the culture
within the church,because certainly, you know,
we have a long waysto go in this space.
So what are the stepsthat you're taking with
local churches?
Yes.
Well, a lot of the reasonthat I or my wife and
(09:55):
I are invited in to speakat local church,
I do the majorityof the ministry.
She againis a full time counselor
with her own practice and,also homeschools our boys.
So she has a very busy schedule.
Yeah, exactly.
But the majority of of whatwe're doing within
the church is workingwith pastors and leaders
on, on helping them understandthe, the issues of identity
(10:17):
struggles and issues.
So we bring our story to bearin those situations.
But we understand thatwithin the church, certainly
the much, much bigger issueby numbers, huge
numbers are is sexual,heterosexual, sexual brokenness
of a variety of sorts.
And certainly pornographyis one of the biggest,
culprits there.
And, and so helping thechurch understand
though that underneathof sexual brokenness,
(10:37):
especially for genuineChristians, underneath of
sexual brokenness is deeprelational brokenness.
Christians who hate whatthey're doing,
who want to follow Jesus,who want to be free of this
and yet are stillcompulsively bound
to these things.
We believe that what is feedingthat is really unhealed
wounds of the pastin so many ways.
And also,just the the emptiness,
(10:59):
the relational emptiness.
I believe that God, Jesus diedto, to give us new life in him
that breaksthe power of sin today.
It doesn'tjust get us out of hell
into heaven one day,which is glorious, but it breaks
the power of sin today,which means we still struggle
with sin.
We still have a flesh,but we don't have to live
under the tyranny of it.
And it also opens a doorwayfor us to enter into a deeper
(11:21):
relationship.
We're big into wherewe really believe that
the normal Christian lifeis that every Son of God,
every daughter of God,has a band of brothers,
a band of sisters, threeor 4 or 5 people
that you're doing lifewith, that everything's on
the table with that,that you're supporting
and praying for one anotherand that there's relational,
it's not just accountabilitythat's important to relational
(11:42):
accountability, but there'sthere's an essence.
I love how JohnEldredge describes
how fathers pass on, in essence,to their children.
Something like food,as their children are
walking with them.
And if the father is invitingand loving toward that child,
there's an essence.
It's passed down.
I think that's truein our friendships, as well.
It's a lot easier to sayno to sexual sin
(12:03):
when we are relationallyand emotionally full than when
we are starving.
And I think most of us,as Christians are starving
relationally.
Absolutely.
Yeah, I would agree with that.
You know, you brought upthe isolation
and the feeling of,you know, being alone.
We hear that so frequentlywith members at Covenant
Eyess that, you know,they didn't realize they thought
(12:25):
they were alone.
They didn't knowthere were others.
And that kept themhiding in shame.
Satan loves to do that.
Yes. Oh he does.
So talk to us a little bitabout some of the other
common liesthat people encounter.
You know, about themselvesand their struggles,
as they're lookingto address these things.
(12:45):
Well, look at what happenedimmediately with Adam and Eve
when they sinned.
I mean, so they'rethey're grasping for fig leaves,
sewing them together,making themselves clothes.
The Bible says theireyes were open.
And really, it was shame thatset in in that moment,
the last phrase of before sinenters into the world is that
they were both nakedand unashamed.
That was the last time that thatreally happened,
(13:08):
that we just had thatnatural lack of shame and and so
and then they also hidin the trees from God.
Right.
So we we do the same thing.
I think it's it's the shame,pride and fear and often
the cluster of all threethat really
is a powerful cocktailfor binding us.
We are not it is not thatwe are unable to break those,
(13:30):
the power of that by pressing into what God calls us to do.
But we have tobreak the power of it.
Otherwise we will liveunder the tyranny of it.
Move into isolation.
We can be in isolationin a crowd.
We can be in isolationas a pastor on a platform,
preaching the truthof God's Word, and yet
have a deep pocketof sexual brokenness
that is going onat the same time.
So I thinkthose are huge culprits
(13:52):
and shame being a primary one.
That's good.
So as people are kind of seekingto break free obviously.
You know we in today's culture,you know young people
especially are really told to,you know, find
what makes them happy, you know,seek out, you know, create their
own identities.
I mean, social media fostersthat, right?
(14:14):
I mean for sure filters.
And you can createyou can make yourself
look however you want online.
And it's creating all thesefalse identities
all over the place.
So talk to us a little bitabout how we help people walk
back to our identity and Christ,and how that really
is the ticketto finding freedom.
Yeah.
And we would say as well that,our identity is not only rooted
(14:37):
in Christ, it certainly is,but it actually goes back
to where everyone believerand nonbeliever we are, image
bearers of God.
Genesis 126 and 27.
We were made male and femalein the image of God.
We believe that men and womenhave an equal, aspect
of the image of God within them,but different
expressions of of thatwhich would go.
God was very intentionalabout and, and it's
(14:59):
a beautiful thing to live intothose differences.
And yes, there's similaritiesto of course, but
but when we can help peopletap back in as Christians,
now we have a new power.
The power of sin is broken.
We can tap back intowhat does it mean to be a man
made in God's image?
What does it mean to be a womanmeeting God's image?
My past life didn'treflect God's image.
(15:21):
Hookup culture doesn'treflect God's image at all.
It male or female.
And and so how can we reallycast a vision for and talk
about the good in the beautifuland the positive things
about made being madein the image of God?
How can we build up our childrenand young people to, to have a,
a substantive place within that?
(15:42):
They understand that, oh, Godhad total intention
about creating meas a boy or a girl.
It's a good it'sa beautiful thing.
And it's somethingthat he's going to use.
In my generation,as I lean into that.
So I think there's a lot of wayswe can cast a vision, for,
for our sons and daughtersand brothers and sisters
in Christ to really lean intoan eternal perspective.
(16:04):
Two things, I think,that are so profound
that God created us for,of course, a third one worship.
For sure.
We are going to worshipan atheist worships, I believe,
but is not worshiping.
Actuallythe God who created them
may be worshipingthemselves, etc.
but we were made to worship.
We're going toworship something,
but we are also madefor belonging.
We were made.
Psalm 68 six says that Godtakes the lonely
and puts them in family.
(16:25):
God loves to connect usinto deep and rich family,
and we can do so much morethan we are currently doing
in the body of Christwith regard to that.
And then and then thirdly,we were made
for eternal purpose.
So if I can,if I can get my eyes
off of my momentary painor my own struggles,
but the enemy loves to turn usinward to our, you know,
trying to reformor reshape our identity
(16:47):
around the world'sperspective or what what we see
in the moment,rather than elevating
our eyes to the eternal,really finding our sense
of belonging and lovein the body of Christ
and in our Christianfamily network.
And I think when we get awayfrom those things, the world is,
is there as a, as a counterfeitto draw us away and there's
nothing more.
(17:08):
There's I think one of thereasons sexual
sin is so powerful is because itis such a mimic.
It's such a counterfeitfor authentic intimacy, more
so than anything else.
And we're longing for it.
Relationaland emotional intimacy.
And and again, sex winds upbeing the microwave option
for that.
Wow.
That is so powerful and so true.
(17:29):
You know, as you think aboutthe church, you know, gosh,
when I startedwith Covenant Eyess
eight years ago, I rememberthe Barna stats,
that we did with.
Oh, yes.
Yeah, we did the statswith Barna and Josh
McDowell ministries.
You know, the first initial lookwas that 7% of churches
had programs to addresspornography
and sexual brokenness.
(17:49):
The stats that just came outlast year from Barna reflect
a little bit of an improvement.
We're up to 10%,but knowing that there's
you know, in the ballparkof 350,000 churches in America
somewhere in that ballpark. Yes.
You know, we have a longways to go.
So what what would a trulyhealing, centered, truth
filled church look like?
(18:11):
And how do we get more of those,in a faster pace, honestly?
Because, you know,the world is drowning
in sexual sin, and we need tobe the beacon of hope.
So how do wehow do we create that?
And what does that look like?
Yeah.
And the sad thingis, is that the church
is secretlydrowning in sexual sin.
We often saythat it is a stage 3 or 4 cancer
(18:33):
folks of in the underbellyof every church.
That's not beingaddressed effectively.
So your question isabsolutely right and spot on.
I think that, one of the primarythings that needs to happen
as leaders need to gofirst, leaders need to lead.
Now, there are some peoplewho have come to faith
at four years oldor six years old or whatever.
And and I love those stories,especially in our culture today.
(18:56):
It's miraculous that people havereally maintained a walk
with Jesusfrom a very early age,
never got involvedin pornography
or very little or veryrarely, never got involved
like they were virginswhen they got married.
Well, that's that's amiraculous story
these days, practically.
So those storiesare very important.
But but the vastmajority of pastors
and Christian leaders and eldersand women's ministry
(19:18):
leaders and men, men, men'sministry leaders,
the vast majorityhave a sexual brokenness
story and backgroundthat they're not talking about.
I often say when I'm speakingand teaching and doing summits
is one of the key things.
We in the churchhave got to stop
cleaning up our stories.
First of all, we don't eventell our stories.
But then when we do,we sew window, dress them
and so clean them upthat they are
(19:39):
absolutely irrelevant.
The truth is,they're not irrelevant.
If you would tellthe truth of where God met you
and came into the gutterwith you,
they're not irrelevant.
But because ofwe're still dealing
with some level levels of shame.
So we've got tolead with vulnerability.
And and there there are pastorswho are afraid today,
if they said anythingabout even past struggles,
they'd get fired.
(19:59):
I mean, it's ridiculous.
So we need to free up pastorsto be real and vulnerable
and open up the the ideaand the reality
that everybody strugglesin a variety of ways,
whether it's sexualor otherwise.
We all have sinned, bends.
Can we start getting honestabout what those are
so that we know how to supportone another and encourage
one another?
And of course, getting equippedwith good tools,
(20:21):
not leaning into, you know,progressive
Christian perspectives that arethat a revisionist history
of the Bible, but stayingin an orthodox truth
based perspective.
John says that Jesus wasfull of grace and truth.
So we don't want tojust be loving, quote unquote.
First Corinthians 13 six says,love does not rejoice
in unrighteousness, but rejoiceswith the truth.
(20:42):
Whenever we start to minimize,the impact of sin
by trying to be,quote unquote, loving,
we're actuallyembracing something that's not
biblical love.
So those are somethere's lots of things
that churches can do, I think.
But but they can get equipped.
But they vulnerability isan absolute essential.
Without it,people will not open up
and be vulnerable.
The vulnerable themselves.
(21:04):
That's powerful and I love thatyou brought up leaders
you know leaders going first.
And you knowwe talked to so many
church leaders and peoplethat have struggled
with pornography or othersexual brokenness in the past.
And you're rightthey bring up the fact
that they're concernedthat they may, you know,
that by disclosing this past,you know, struggle, they're,
(21:25):
you know, deacon boardor their directors or, you know,
going to fire them.
And that is a realI mean, that's a real pain point
and a real concern.
They have families.
I mean, I understand that,but as a church body
we need to do better.
So I mean, that really is a callto because, you know,
deacons boardsand all these boards,
they're filledwith church goers.
So we as churchgoers need to have
(21:46):
a little more gracefor our leaders and embrace
the fact that, you know,they have a story
and a testimony to share.
And it's powerfuland it's impactful,
and they need tobe able to share that
because it helps to bring othersto the table so they feel safe
to share their story and gethealing and redemption.
That's right.
I agree with that.
And I think that.
But regardless, I think leadersstill have to lead,
(22:08):
even if it's a riskthat you're going to
be fired even.
And I don't mean just get up ona Sunday morning
and never having said anything,you've got to talk
to your leadership,obviously talking
with your spouse.
But but I thinkwe have to be willing to,
it is not easy to changethe DNA of a church
that has been builton image management.
And so many churches have. Yeah.
And so, it's it is a rough thingto do that, but churches
(22:31):
that are going to be relevant inthis culture
are going to be willingto address those issues.
You're absolutely right.
You're absolutely right.
And I think that'sa powerful call to action
to our leaders, you know, toto be strong and to be brave
and to have courageand to do this
and to lead forward, I love it.
Well, let's pivot a little bitand just talk about,
(22:52):
some of our listenersthat are listening
might feel like they're stuckin this cycle of porn.
Use or just sexualbrokenness in general.
And they want to change.
They just they they try,they fail.
They just they feel so hopeless.
What encouragement.
And you know, enlightenment.
Do you have to share with themabout getting out of this?
Well, I know exactly whatthat cycle feels like
(23:14):
and the hopelessnessassociated with it like this
is just an impossibility,or it feels like
an impossibility, but it's not.
I mean, so many others.
I think everyone who'swho is managed
to you, by the graceand the power of God
walk out of this,probably have a story
of hopelessness.
In a long season,maybe many years of hopelessness
around it.
Again, I think,I believe that is
(23:34):
absolutely critical.
I don't believethat any of us are able
to walk outof these deeply rooted
sin issues,apart from relationship.
So we have got to start obeying.
James 516 firstJohn one seven also,
if we walk in the light as he,God is in the light,
we have fellowshipwith one another just.
But most of us are not walkingin the light.
We're walking in the shadows,even in the church.
(23:56):
So we've got to start walkingthe light with one another.
We've got to startfinding these groups.
And it's not I know it canfeel intimidating,
but honestly, I've.
I've just begun asking guys,you know, hey, I want to go
deeper in my walk with Jesus.
I know there are some thingsin my life that block that sin
areas struggles,and I want to get rid
of some of this stuff.
(24:16):
But I know thatthe Bible teaches that I need
other brothers in my lifeto help me with that,
and I want to be ableto help other brothers.
Are you interested in that?
I mean, that was nota long tirade.
That was a simple thing.
But they and they havethe freedom to say yes or no.
But I've had overand over and over
again, Guy say, you know what?
I've been dying for that too.
Let's get togetherat six in the morning
at wherever, and start at oncea week and start,
(24:40):
connecting and talkingthrough these things
and share the, the real painof our story to get to know
one another and then beginbuilding on a relational
accountability with each other.
So those are just,a couple of things that
I think are so essentialand we can take it on ourselves
to find those guysand pray for God to show us
Holy Spirit, show me these menin my church that I can,
(25:02):
or in my men's groupor whatever that I can,
form a band of brothers withand just have the courage
to step into that.
That is good.
You know, and that's somethingwe hear quite frequently
from members is that, you know,I don't have anyone.
I don't have an accountability.
I don't have anybodyI can walk with in this journey.
But one thing, you know,that we try to bring up
and remind them, it's like,pray, you know, pray that God
(25:24):
and the Holy Spiritwill guide you to that person
because they're there.
You just don't knowwhere they are at at the moment.
So we often forgetin those times, like really
go into deep prayerand trust the Lord
that he will reveal that person.
That will be a benefitto your life.
So I love it.
And there aresome online options
to carry that you knowthat that can be helpful.
I love in-personmore than online.
(25:46):
So much is online these days.
But yeah, how how great is itthat if you don't have something
readily available,you could at least find
some of these groups online?
One of my favorite peoplein this space
is Crystal in our day.
And I know you guys are backwith her and she is the head of
she recovery.
I mean, what a powerful storyof how pornography
can also capturethe heart of a woman.
And so many women also dowrestle with this.
(26:07):
So it's not just a dudesissue is so
many of believed it is.
It's also, a women's issueor it can be a women's issue.
So, in our ministry,we are happy for people
to reach out to us.
I know you guys are too,to get linked up or connected
with online support.
And if we knowpeople or churches
in their area,we'll connect to them.
They'd have a programor those kind of things.
We'll connect them there too.
(26:28):
So we don't want peoplejust to kind of sit
without resources.
That's amazing.
Well, that is incredible.
I know we're comingto the end of today's episode,
and I definitelywant to make sure that people
are able to connect with youand your wife, Melissa,
and your ministry.
So how do people find outmore about your ministry
and then also get connectedwith you guys?
Yeah, well,probably the best way is
(26:49):
just to goto our website, Love &
Truth network.com.
It's all spelled outin our, in our logo.
It's an ampersand for and butit's LoveAndTruthNetwork.com.
And then we also doa weekly podcast as well.
That's about an hour long,covering a wide range of topics
on sexuality and identity.
And that can befound at our website
slash podcast in video form.
(27:11):
It's out on YouTubeor any of the,
the podcast platforms.
It's just Love &Truth Network podcast.
Awesome.
Well, we'll put out those linksin the show notes to make sure
that our listeners can find you.
And we could spend hourswith, yes, have so much wisdom,
and we'll love to have you back,next season so we can dive into
some other topics with youbecause you have a wealth
of knowledge and wisdom.
But Garry, I want to thank youfor your ministry.
(27:33):
Thank you for the workin your heart to help
restore the church to the lightthat it needs to be
in this dark world.
So thank you for everythingyou're doing.
You and your wife now.
Absolutely.
Thank you. Care.
And we love the CovenantEyess is there?
What a what a wonderful tool.
Awesome.
Well, thanks so much, listenersfor joining us today
for this conversation.
(27:53):
Learn more about Garryand Melissa's ministry,
check out the websiteand check out their
podcast as well.
I know you will becertainly blessed by it.
We'll see you next timeon the Covenant Eyess Podcast.
Everybody take care.
God bless.
You.
Hey everybody, welcome backto the Covenant Eyess Podcast.
So good to have you joining usfor this episode.
We have got a new friendjoining us, Garry
Ingraham from the Love &Truth Network is here
for a great discussion.
You're going to love learningabout his ministry
and his testimony.
So stay with us.
Make sure you like and subscribeto the podcast.
(00:26):
It's amazing to mehow many of you listen
and forget to hit subscribe.
Very importantto make sure you do those stats.
It lets us know that you arewith us on this journey
and with that, Garry,welcome to the podcast.
Thanks so much, Karen.
It's great to bewith you. Absolutely.
Well we are.
I know you've been alongtime friend with Sam Black
for many years,but this is actually
(00:47):
the first chanceI've had to meet you
and learn moreabout your ministry.
So for our listeners out there,can you share a little bit
about who you areand the Ministry of Love
& Truth Network?
Sure.
So about 12 years ago, my wifeMelissa and I founded Love &
Truth Network.
I had been on pastoral staffat a large church
in upstate New Yorkfor about 12 years.
Before that, and my wifeis a licensed
(01:09):
Christian counselor.
I've been doing thatfor about 20 years or so,
and prior to that,both of us come out of,
sexual brokenness,identity confusion,
those kinds of things.
But I, at a very early age,the age of 5 or 6 or so,
way before the internet,some older neighborhood boys
thought it would be great funto invite me over
to their place to playafter school and, introduced me
(01:30):
to their dad's hardcore porn,and their parents
weren't around, and and that wasa pivotal shift in my life
as well as their kind of sexualacting out together and
and just the, the bothearly sexualization
and then the, the sexual abuse,that occurred as well.
And it was a one timeevent in terms of the abuse.
And, but the pornographywas something that lingered
(01:52):
and really picked upand became an addiction,
coming into pubertyand long after that.
So very, very, impactful event,unfortunately, in
such negative ways in mylife at such an early age.
Oh, gosh, I'm sosorry to hear that.
And you know, your story isnot unique.
I wish that I could say thatit is, but so many people
(02:12):
have similar experiences.
And then, you know,that early exposure to
abuse, trauma and then alsothe pornography really leads
people on a journeythat they hadn't
planned for their life.
So talk to us a little bitabout how that experience,
and your wife's experienceswith sexual brokenness
really led you to creatingthis ministry.
(02:34):
And what isthe ministry's goals?
Yes.
Well, for me, thethe early sexualization
and a lot of that, experienceas well as kind
of coupled with a lack of realemotional connection
with my father and alsoa lot of, brokenness in
regard to mefeeling like I didn't
fit into the world of boys.
I felt different thanI just didn't.
(02:56):
I wasn't your typical roughand tumble kind of boy,
and so was easilykind of ostracized and bullied
in those kinds of thingsin school, sometimes
even in church,settings as well.
And, and so that just ledinto all kinds of confusion
and eventually, led me to whereI just left Bible college,
and I thought, you know what?
God, I hate you.
I hate your church.
I want nothingto do with this anymore.
(03:16):
I've been begging for for youto help me in these areas
where I'm strugglingand I feel like you're not
doing anything to help me.
What I realizednow, looking back,
is God's intention.
Apart from maybea miraculous move, his intention
is that we're typicallydiscipled and that we
grow up around other believerswho are open and vulnerable
and are able to because ofthat vulnerability
(03:37):
and because of, living inan an open environment with one
another in termsof sharing our stories,
those kinds of thingsthat young people and adults
can find help from oneanother's who who have been
in those same situations.
But there was nothingbut silence around all of this
as I was growing up.
And so I just feltleft to myself
to try to figure it all out.
My my wife discovered herfather's, porn
(03:59):
in in their garage,stashed away somewhere
when she was about 12 or so.
And that felt bothincredibly defiling
and also intriguing.
And and so she really grew upfeeling like
with an older brotherand her dad kind of absent
so much in offsort of having affairs
and things like that.
On her mother.
She just grew up to feel likebeing a woman is is a liability.
(04:21):
It's just it's it feels unsafe.
And so she got into three longterm relationships with men,
was engaged to be married,and eventually broke off
that engagement and got involvedwith a woman, actually,
at George Washington University,where she was attending.
And for me, my story was leavingBible college, finding my
first gay bar, andand feeling like, this is
(04:43):
I finally found my people.
I finally fit in somewhereand, my, my book cover for those
that are watching, behind me,my book called am I Gay?
Really tells that story.
And, and up to the pointof coming to genuine faith,
even though I grew upin a Christian home,
coming to genuinefaith at the age of 23.
Wow, that is quitea testimony and a story.
(05:03):
I thank you for being vulnerableand sharing that.
And thank you for writingthe book as well.
As I'm sureit's been very helpful
to so many out there,because there are so many
that feel the way that you didduring that period of time.
So talk to us a little bitabout you know,
you mentioned thisin your story, but you felt
really alone there.
You know, the church is supposedto be a place
(05:24):
where we can find thathope in that healing and,
and share with others.
But in so many ways,you're not unique in that story
where you felt likethat was not a safe place to go.
So talk to me a little bitabout what the church
is getting wrongwhen it comes to that.
Well, the reason our ministryexists, Love & Truth
Network is to equipthe local church
(05:45):
across the nation on how to haveeffective ministry in the space
of restoring all kindsof sexual wholeness or restoring
sexual wholeness, restoringrelational wholeness
and biblical identity.
So we oftentimes say same root,different fruit, the truth is,
is that so many I mean, the vastmajority of
people in the church,Christ followers
(06:05):
even have are dealingwith as human beings,
dealing with some formof sexual brokenness,
even if it's a past issue.
But often it'sa current issue as well.
And and it's notusually funneled
in identity confusion,but it's it's more of
just utilizingpornography or hookup culture
or, sex before marriageor even adultery.
(06:26):
Those things are very much aliveand well in the church.
The statistics show, sadly,that those are very much alive.
And I think the reason forthat is our kind of unspoken
environment of don'task, don't tell.
You know, we just we keep we'lltalk about certain things,
but we keep most of the private,shameful things to ourselves
where no one finds outabout them.
It's exactly the oppositeof the prescription,
(06:48):
the one prescription Godhas given us
for healing of thesekinds of matters is James 516.
Confess your sins to one anotherand pray for each other,
that you might be healed.
The prayer of a righteousman accomplishes much, or woman
accomplishes much.
And yet, honestly,the truth is, Karen,
I think routinelywe as Christians totally ignore
and disobey that scripture.
All the time.
(07:08):
And it's evidenced by the fact,just for your listeners,
when is the last time any of ushave sat down with a trusted,
brother or sister inChrist and opened up and shared,
the, the litany of ourof our struggles,
whatever those may beand struggles and really
received prayer andand it's not a once and done.
It's a it's meant to be a rhythmof how we live our lives
(07:30):
together.
Yeah. You are so right.
You know, and I just,I think to myself, like,
has this always been an issuewithin the church
or is it a newer issue that,you know, maybe these are just
tough issues that the churchjust doesn't talk about?
Well, or is this somethingthat's changed in
recent history?
Do you have anythoughts on that?
(07:50):
Well, I think it'salways been an issue.
I mean, you can look backto the practically
the beginning of timeand sexual brokenness were huge
issues and coupled.
You know, when you look at whatIsrael stumbled over
over and over againthat led them into captivity
and and then God had mercyand brought them back
and then back intocaptivity again.
It was almost alwaysthe coupling of idolatry
and sexual immorality.
(08:11):
And when you evenconsider Solomon the wisest man
who ever lived, he began so welland was so blessed by God.
And yet the end of his life.
God is not happy with Solomonbecause of those two things
idolatry, sexual immorality.
He allowed his heartto be turned away from God
toward these other things.
And so we see thethe example of that.
When I was a kid growing up,you know, I assumed
(08:32):
it was just me.
Like I was thisuniquely broken freak.
And the church had to keep itall to myself.
And of course, I believe thatbecause no one was saying
a thing about it.
But as I became an adult insome other people
were kind of sharing.
And I grew up in a tinycountry church,
but there were other they weremen who were dealing
with pornography issuesand, and we're we're struggling
with those things.
(08:53):
And there was never a mentionof any of that.
There was nevera mention of freedom or hope or
any of those kinds of things.
So it's not brand new,but I think the
proliferation of itwith the internet,
a couple clicks and the,the most unimaginable stuff,
what happened to meis child's play.
It's a walk at thebeach practically.
And I'm not I'm not minimizingwhat happened to me.
But compared to what kidsare exposed to today
(09:13):
in and outside the church, it isit is exponentially worse
today than it was backwhen I was a young person.
You are so right.
Yeah, absolutely.
My heart really breaksfor our young
people today because, I mean,so much is being thrown at them
and not by choice.
And it's way worsethan all the things
that, you know, we hadaccess to in the past.
(09:35):
So yeah, I would definitelyagree with that.
So as you'reworking with the church,
talk to us a little bitabout how your ministry
is helping to kind ofchange the tide and the culture
within the church,because certainly, you know,
we have a long waysto go in this space.
So what are the stepsthat you're taking with
local churches?
Yes.
Well, a lot of the reasonthat I or my wife and
(09:55):
I are invited in to speakat local church,
I do the majorityof the ministry.
She againis a full time counselor
with her own practice and,also homeschools our boys.
So she has a very busy schedule.
Yeah, exactly.
But the majority of of whatwe're doing within
the church is workingwith pastors and leaders
on, on helping them understandthe, the issues of identity
(10:17):
struggles and issues.
So we bring our story to bearin those situations.
But we understand thatwithin the church, certainly
the much, much bigger issueby numbers, huge
numbers are is sexual,heterosexual, sexual brokenness
of a variety of sorts.
And certainly pornographyis one of the biggest,
culprits there.
And, and so helping thechurch understand
though that underneathof sexual brokenness,
(10:37):
especially for genuineChristians, underneath of
sexual brokenness is deeprelational brokenness.
Christians who hate whatthey're doing,
who want to follow Jesus,who want to be free of this
and yet are stillcompulsively bound
to these things.
We believe that what is feedingthat is really unhealed
wounds of the pastin so many ways.
And also,just the the emptiness,
(10:59):
the relational emptiness.
I believe that God, Jesus diedto, to give us new life in him
that breaksthe power of sin today.
It doesn'tjust get us out of hell
into heaven one day,which is glorious, but it breaks
the power of sin today,which means we still struggle
with sin.
We still have a flesh,but we don't have to live
under the tyranny of it.
And it also opens a doorwayfor us to enter into a deeper
(11:21):
relationship.
We're big into wherewe really believe that
the normal Christian lifeis that every Son of God,
every daughter of God,has a band of brothers,
a band of sisters, threeor 4 or 5 people
that you're doing lifewith, that everything's on
the table with that,that you're supporting
and praying for one anotherand that there's relational,
it's not just accountabilitythat's important to relational
(11:42):
accountability, but there'sthere's an essence.
I love how JohnEldredge describes
how fathers pass on, in essence,to their children.
Something like food,as their children are
walking with them.
And if the father is invitingand loving toward that child,
there's an essence.
It's passed down.
I think that's truein our friendships, as well.
It's a lot easier to sayno to sexual sin
(12:03):
when we are relationallyand emotionally full than when
we are starving.
And I think most of us,as Christians are starving
relationally.
Absolutely.
Yeah, I would agree with that.
You know, you brought upthe isolation
and the feeling of,you know, being alone.
We hear that so frequentlywith members at Covenant
Eyess that, you know,they didn't realize they thought
(12:25):
they were alone.
They didn't knowthere were others.
And that kept themhiding in shame.
Satan loves to do that.
Yes. Oh he does.
So talk to us a little bitabout some of the other
common liesthat people encounter.
You know, about themselvesand their struggles,
as they're lookingto address these things.
(12:45):
Well, look at what happenedimmediately with Adam and Eve
when they sinned.
I mean, so they'rethey're grasping for fig leaves,
sewing them together,making themselves clothes.
The Bible says theireyes were open.
And really, it was shame thatset in in that moment,
the last phrase of before sinenters into the world is that
they were both nakedand unashamed.
That was the last time that thatreally happened,
(13:08):
that we just had thatnatural lack of shame and and so
and then they also hidin the trees from God.
Right.
So we we do the same thing.
I think it's it's the shame,pride and fear and often
the cluster of all threethat really
is a powerful cocktailfor binding us.
We are not it is not thatwe are unable to break those,
(13:30):
the power of that by pressing into what God calls us to do.
But we have tobreak the power of it.
Otherwise we will liveunder the tyranny of it.
Move into isolation.
We can be in isolationin a crowd.
We can be in isolationas a pastor on a platform,
preaching the truthof God's Word, and yet
have a deep pocketof sexual brokenness
that is going onat the same time.
So I thinkthose are huge culprits
(13:52):
and shame being a primary one.
That's good.
So as people are kind of seekingto break free obviously.
You know we in today's culture,you know young people
especially are really told to,you know, find
what makes them happy, you know,seek out, you know, create their
own identities.
I mean, social media fostersthat, right?
(14:14):
I mean for sure filters.
And you can createyou can make yourself
look however you want online.
And it's creating all thesefalse identities
all over the place.
So talk to us a little bitabout how we help people walk
back to our identity and Christ,and how that really
is the ticketto finding freedom.
Yeah.
And we would say as well that,our identity is not only rooted
(14:37):
in Christ, it certainly is,but it actually goes back
to where everyone believerand nonbeliever we are, image
bearers of God.
Genesis 126 and 27.
We were made male and femalein the image of God.
We believe that men and womenhave an equal, aspect
of the image of God within them,but different
expressions of of thatwhich would go.
God was very intentionalabout and, and it's
(14:59):
a beautiful thing to live intothose differences.
And yes, there's similaritiesto of course, but
but when we can help peopletap back in as Christians,
now we have a new power.
The power of sin is broken.
We can tap back intowhat does it mean to be a man
made in God's image?
What does it mean to be a womanmeeting God's image?
My past life didn'treflect God's image.
(15:21):
Hookup culture doesn'treflect God's image at all.
It male or female.
And and so how can we reallycast a vision for and talk
about the good in the beautifuland the positive things
about made being madein the image of God?
How can we build up our childrenand young people to, to have a,
a substantive place within that?
(15:42):
They understand that, oh, Godhad total intention
about creating meas a boy or a girl.
It's a good it'sa beautiful thing.
And it's somethingthat he's going to use.
In my generation,as I lean into that.
So I think there's a lot of wayswe can cast a vision, for,
for our sons and daughtersand brothers and sisters
in Christ to really lean intoan eternal perspective.
(16:04):
Two things, I think,that are so profound
that God created us for,of course, a third one worship.
For sure.
We are going to worshipan atheist worships, I believe,
but is not worshiping.
Actuallythe God who created them
may be worshipingthemselves, etc.
but we were made to worship.
We're going toworship something,
but we are also madefor belonging.
We were made.
Psalm 68 six says that Godtakes the lonely
and puts them in family.
(16:25):
God loves to connect usinto deep and rich family,
and we can do so much morethan we are currently doing
in the body of Christwith regard to that.
And then and then thirdly,we were made
for eternal purpose.
So if I can,if I can get my eyes
off of my momentary painor my own struggles,
but the enemy loves to turn usinward to our, you know,
trying to reformor reshape our identity
(16:47):
around the world'sperspective or what what we see
in the moment,rather than elevating
our eyes to the eternal,really finding our sense
of belonging and lovein the body of Christ
and in our Christianfamily network.
And I think when we get awayfrom those things, the world is,
is there as a, as a counterfeitto draw us away and there's
nothing more.
(17:08):
There's I think one of thereasons sexual
sin is so powerful is because itis such a mimic.
It's such a counterfeitfor authentic intimacy, more
so than anything else.
And we're longing for it.
Relationaland emotional intimacy.
And and again, sex winds upbeing the microwave option
for that.
Wow.
That is so powerful and so true.
(17:29):
You know, as you think aboutthe church, you know, gosh,
when I startedwith Covenant Eyess
eight years ago, I rememberthe Barna stats,
that we did with.
Oh, yes.
Yeah, we did the statswith Barna and Josh
McDowell ministries.
You know, the first initial lookwas that 7% of churches
had programs to addresspornography
and sexual brokenness.
(17:49):
The stats that just came outlast year from Barna reflect
a little bit of an improvement.
We're up to 10%,but knowing that there's
you know, in the ballparkof 350,000 churches in America
somewhere in that ballpark. Yes.
You know, we have a longways to go.
So what what would a trulyhealing, centered, truth
filled church look like?
(18:11):
And how do we get more of those,in a faster pace, honestly?
Because, you know,the world is drowning
in sexual sin, and we need tobe the beacon of hope.
So how do wehow do we create that?
And what does that look like?
Yeah.
And the sad thingis, is that the church
is secretlydrowning in sexual sin.
We often saythat it is a stage 3 or 4 cancer
(18:33):
folks of in the underbellyof every church.
That's not beingaddressed effectively.
So your question isabsolutely right and spot on.
I think that, one of the primarythings that needs to happen
as leaders need to gofirst, leaders need to lead.
Now, there are some peoplewho have come to faith
at four years oldor six years old or whatever.
And and I love those stories,especially in our culture today.
(18:56):
It's miraculous that people havereally maintained a walk
with Jesusfrom a very early age,
never got involvedin pornography
or very little or veryrarely, never got involved
like they were virginswhen they got married.
Well, that's that's amiraculous story
these days, practically.
So those storiesare very important.
But but the vastmajority of pastors
and Christian leaders and eldersand women's ministry
(19:18):
leaders and men, men, men'sministry leaders,
the vast majorityhave a sexual brokenness
story and backgroundthat they're not talking about.
I often say when I'm speakingand teaching and doing summits
is one of the key things.
We in the churchhave got to stop
cleaning up our stories.
First of all, we don't eventell our stories.
But then when we do,we sew window, dress them
and so clean them upthat they are
(19:39):
absolutely irrelevant.
The truth is,they're not irrelevant.
If you would tellthe truth of where God met you
and came into the gutterwith you,
they're not irrelevant.
But because ofwe're still dealing
with some level levels of shame.
So we've got tolead with vulnerability.
And and there there are pastorswho are afraid today,
if they said anythingabout even past struggles,
they'd get fired.
(19:59):
I mean, it's ridiculous.
So we need to free up pastorsto be real and vulnerable
and open up the the ideaand the reality
that everybody strugglesin a variety of ways,
whether it's sexualor otherwise.
We all have sinned, bends.
Can we start getting honestabout what those are
so that we know how to supportone another and encourage
one another?
And of course, getting equippedwith good tools,
(20:21):
not leaning into, you know,progressive
Christian perspectives that arethat a revisionist history
of the Bible, but stayingin an orthodox truth
based perspective.
John says that Jesus wasfull of grace and truth.
So we don't want tojust be loving, quote unquote.
First Corinthians 13 six says,love does not rejoice
in unrighteousness, but rejoiceswith the truth.
(20:42):
Whenever we start to minimize,the impact of sin
by trying to be,quote unquote, loving,
we're actuallyembracing something that's not
biblical love.
So those are somethere's lots of things
that churches can do, I think.
But but they can get equipped.
But they vulnerability isan absolute essential.
Without it,people will not open up
and be vulnerable.
The vulnerable themselves.
(21:04):
That's powerful and I love thatyou brought up leaders
you know leaders going first.
And you knowwe talked to so many
church leaders and peoplethat have struggled
with pornography or othersexual brokenness in the past.
And you're rightthey bring up the fact
that they're concernedthat they may, you know,
that by disclosing this past,you know, struggle, they're,
(21:25):
you know, deacon boardor their directors or, you know,
going to fire them.
And that is a realI mean, that's a real pain point
and a real concern.
They have families.
I mean, I understand that,but as a church body
we need to do better.
So I mean, that really is a callto because, you know,
deacons boardsand all these boards,
they're filledwith church goers.
So we as churchgoers need to have
(21:46):
a little more gracefor our leaders and embrace
the fact that, you know,they have a story
and a testimony to share.
And it's powerfuland it's impactful,
and they need tobe able to share that
because it helps to bring othersto the table so they feel safe
to share their story and gethealing and redemption.
That's right.
I agree with that.
And I think that.
But regardless, I think leadersstill have to lead,
(22:08):
even if it's a riskthat you're going to
be fired even.
And I don't mean just get up ona Sunday morning
and never having said anything,you've got to talk
to your leadership,obviously talking
with your spouse.
But but I thinkwe have to be willing to,
it is not easy to changethe DNA of a church
that has been builton image management.
And so many churches have. Yeah.
And so, it's it is a rough thingto do that, but churches
(22:31):
that are going to be relevant inthis culture
are going to be willingto address those issues.
You're absolutely right.
You're absolutely right.
And I think that'sa powerful call to action
to our leaders, you know, toto be strong and to be brave
and to have courageand to do this
and to lead forward, I love it.
Well, let's pivot a little bitand just talk about,
(22:52):
some of our listenersthat are listening
might feel like they're stuckin this cycle of porn.
Use or just sexualbrokenness in general.
And they want to change.
They just they they try,they fail.
They just they feel so hopeless.
What encouragement.
And you know, enlightenment.
Do you have to share with themabout getting out of this?
Well, I know exactly whatthat cycle feels like
(23:14):
and the hopelessnessassociated with it like this
is just an impossibility,or it feels like
an impossibility, but it's not.
I mean, so many others.
I think everyone who'swho is managed
to you, by the graceand the power of God
walk out of this,probably have a story
of hopelessness.
In a long season,maybe many years of hopelessness
around it.
Again, I think,I believe that is
(23:34):
absolutely critical.
I don't believethat any of us are able
to walk outof these deeply rooted
sin issues,apart from relationship.
So we have got to start obeying.
James 516 firstJohn one seven also,
if we walk in the light as he,God is in the light,
we have fellowshipwith one another just.
But most of us are not walkingin the light.
We're walking in the shadows,even in the church.
(23:56):
So we've got to start walkingthe light with one another.
We've got to startfinding these groups.
And it's not I know it canfeel intimidating,
but honestly, I've.
I've just begun asking guys,you know, hey, I want to go
deeper in my walk with Jesus.
I know there are some thingsin my life that block that sin
areas struggles,and I want to get rid
of some of this stuff.
(24:16):
But I know thatthe Bible teaches that I need
other brothers in my lifeto help me with that,
and I want to be ableto help other brothers.
Are you interested in that?
I mean, that was nota long tirade.
That was a simple thing.
But they and they havethe freedom to say yes or no.
But I've had overand over and over
again, Guy say, you know what?
I've been dying for that too.
Let's get togetherat six in the morning
at wherever, and start at oncea week and start,
(24:40):
connecting and talkingthrough these things
and share the, the real painof our story to get to know
one another and then beginbuilding on a relational
accountability with each other.
So those are just,a couple of things that
I think are so essentialand we can take it on ourselves
to find those guysand pray for God to show us
Holy Spirit, show me these menin my church that I can,
(25:02):
or in my men's groupor whatever that I can,
form a band of brothers withand just have the courage
to step into that.
That is good.
You know, and that's somethingwe hear quite frequently
from members is that, you know,I don't have anyone.
I don't have an accountability.
I don't have anybodyI can walk with in this journey.
But one thing, you know,that we try to bring up
and remind them, it's like,pray, you know, pray that God
(25:24):
and the Holy Spiritwill guide you to that person
because they're there.
You just don't knowwhere they are at at the moment.
So we often forgetin those times, like really
go into deep prayerand trust the Lord
that he will reveal that person.
That will be a benefitto your life.
So I love it.
And there aresome online options
to carry that you knowthat that can be helpful.
I love in-personmore than online.
(25:46):
So much is online these days.
But yeah, how how great is itthat if you don't have something
readily available,you could at least find
some of these groups online?
One of my favorite peoplein this space
is Crystal in our day.
And I know you guys are backwith her and she is the head of
she recovery.
I mean, what a powerful storyof how pornography
can also capturethe heart of a woman.
And so many women also dowrestle with this.
(26:07):
So it's not just a dudesissue is so
many of believed it is.
It's also, a women's issueor it can be a women's issue.
So, in our ministry,we are happy for people
to reach out to us.
I know you guys are too,to get linked up or connected
with online support.
And if we knowpeople or churches
in their area,we'll connect to them.
They'd have a programor those kind of things.
We'll connect them there too.
(26:28):
So we don't want peoplejust to kind of sit
without resources.
That's amazing.
Well, that is incredible.
I know we're comingto the end of today's episode,
and I definitelywant to make sure that people
are able to connect with youand your wife, Melissa,
and your ministry.
So how do people find outmore about your ministry
and then also get connectedwith you guys?
Yeah, well,probably the best way is
(26:49):
just to goto our website, Love &
Truth network.com.
It's all spelled outin our, in our logo.
It's an ampersand for and butit's LoveAndTruthNetwork.com.
And then we also doa weekly podcast as well.
That's about an hour long,covering a wide range of topics
on sexuality and identity.
And that can befound at our website
slash podcast in video form.
(27:11):
It's out on YouTubeor any of the,
the podcast platforms.
It's just Love &Truth Network podcast.
Awesome.
Well, we'll put out those linksin the show notes to make sure
that our listeners can find you.
And we could spend hourswith, yes, have so much wisdom,
and we'll love to have you back,next season so we can dive into
some other topics with youbecause you have a wealth
of knowledge and wisdom.
But Garry, I want to thank youfor your ministry.
(27:33):
Thank you for the workin your heart to help
restore the church to the lightthat it needs to be
in this dark world.
So thank you for everythingyou're doing.
You and your wife now.
Absolutely.
Thank you. Care.
And we love the CovenantEyess is there?
What a what a wonderful tool.
Awesome.
Well, thanks so much, listenersfor joining us today
for this conversation.
(27:53):
Learn more about Garryand Melissa's ministry,
check out the websiteand check out their
podcast as well.
I know you will becertainly blessed by it.
We'll see you next timeon the Covenant Eyess Podcast.
Everybody take care.
God bless.
You.
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