September 26, 2025 • 21 mins
Can marriages heal after pornography, betrayal, and broken trust? Matt & Joanna Raabsmith join the Covenant Eyes Podcast to share their story, their healing framework, and hope for couples rebuilding intimacy and faith.
In this episode of the Covenant Eyes Podcast, hosts Karen Potter and Theo McManigal sit down with Matt & Joanna Raabsmith—authors, speakers, and founders of a counseling practice for couples in recovery.
Together, they discuss:
📍 Their personal testimony of overcoming pornography addiction and betrayal trauma.
📍 The framework they developed to help couples rebuild honesty, safety, trust, vulnerability, and intimacy.
📍 The impact of pornography on Christian marriages and how couples can recognize and address it.
📍 How the church can become a safe place for healing and recovery.
📍 Free resources from their ministry to help couples stay connected daily.
👉 Get the Raabsmiths’ free Daily Check-In resource: https://raabsmithteam.com/free
📖 Their book: Building True Intimacy
🔗 Learn more about their ministry: https://raabsmithteam.com
🙏 If you or your marriage has been impacted by pornography, you are not alone. Find hope and tools at:
https://cvnteyes.co/4gb6xme
#covenanteyes #pornrecovery #christianmarriage #marriagerestoration
Chapters
0:00 – Welcome & intro with Karen & Theo
0:46 – Meet Matt & Joanna Raabsmith
1:08 – Their story: addiction, betrayal, and recovery
3:08 – Lack of resources for couples & creating a framework
4:21 – Key steps: honesty, safety, trust, intimacy
7:12 – Fears & rebuilding vulnerability
7:55 – The problem of pornography in Christian marriages
9:32 – How pornography shapes values & destroys intimacy
11:05 – Joanna on “feeling the void” when secrets are hidden
12:12 – Generational impact of porn & sexual brokenness
15:18 – Reshaping sexual narratives together
16:10 – The church’s role in healing and accountability
19:04 – Raabsmith resources & daily check-in tool
20:14 – Closing thoughts and encouragement
.
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
Hey everybody, welcome backto The Covenant Eyes Podcast.
It's awesome to have youjoining us today.
We have got two incredibleguests joining us,
and we also have oneof our favorite co-hosts
back, Theo.
Welcome back to the podcast.
How are you.
Karen. Doing great.
Thanks for having me on.
It's always a pleasureto co-host with you.
Of course, we were havingall sorts of fun tech challenges
(00:27):
before the show, so that meansthis conversation is going to be
off the hook.
I just know it.
This is going to be a supergreat conversation on.
Our listenersare going to be super
blessed by it.
Absolutely. Yeah.
It's going to be fantastic.
Well, without further ado, let'sgo ahead and introduce
our guest, Theo,and get started on
today's conversation.
All right.
So we have, it's kind of a bita different episode
(00:51):
than, that you and Ihave have been
on together. Karen.
But we have the Raabsmith team.
Matt and Joanna.
Matt and Joanna, thank you forjoining us today.
Could you tell us a little bitbefore we do anything else,
can you tell us a little bitabout yourself
and, your ministry?
Yeah.
Thank you so much.
Super excited to be here.
Glad it worked out.
(01:11):
All the tech stuff.
This is done now.
We, we run a practice,a kind of coaching
and counseling practicespecifically for couples
who are in recoveryfrom sexual addiction,
problematic sexualbehavior, betrayal.
Part of thatis because of our own
personal journey.
We've been doing thatfor a number of years.
We love our work, and loveto get to, really engage
(01:35):
couples in and help themkind of find the marriage
that they really, really want.
Yeah.
So we are also authorsand speakers, wrote
a book called BuildingTrue Intimacy,
and we're also parentsof three young children,
so we stay very busy.
That's incredible.
Well, welcome to the podcast,and I would love to dive into
a little bit about how you guysgot started in this line
(01:57):
and work.
You mentioned youguys had your own
personal testimony and story.
If you're comfortable,you know, maybe share
with our listeners a little bitof the context on, you know, how
you guys got towhere you are today.
Yeah, yeah, not on purpose.
This was not thethis was not the thing
that we put on thewhat do you want to be when you
grow up cars.
But we did we, we had adesire to,
(02:18):
to help marriages earlyon in our relationship.
We didn't think it wasgoing to be around this topic,
but once, once the realityof my sexual addiction
and pornography usagekind of imploded.
Our relationship,we had to reorient what life was
going to be.
And we were.
We were so devastated by it.
(02:38):
I think both personally,that when we started recovering,
we really wantedto understand that
and we really wanted to,I think, dive in deep.
And so I kind of went all into personal recovery,
understanding, sexual addiction,understanding,
like what was going on with me,why I had kind of done
the things had done, whyI brought it
into our relationship.
Joanna obviously was dealingwith something
(02:59):
very different. Right.
The impacts of betrayaland this, this trauma
that had just been kindof thrown
in her lap and exploded.
And then as a couple,we wanted to dive in,
but there really wasn'tmany resources
for couples at the time.
This is over a decade ago,and there was very little on
the couple's healing journey.
And so we had a lot ofbumps and bruises along the way
(03:22):
trying to figure out.
Wondering, you know.
Wondering in the desert,trying to figure out, like,
what does it look like?
Because we didn'twant to just survive it, right?
It wasn't like we just want tostay married.
We wanted to really thriveon the other side.
We wanted a relationshipthat we were really excited
and passionate about again.
But it was really hardto know, like, is that possible?
How do you get there?
(03:43):
And so kind of in our journeyand what we're
learning professionallyand then starting
to work with others,we actually began
to develop a frameworkfor relationships
wanting to healfrom sexual addiction,
from betrayal trauma,and kind of creating
a framework.
So we now help other couplesthrough that framework.
That's amazing.
Let's talk a little bitabout that framework
(04:04):
and just kind of how you guidecouples to the other side,
because often,especially Covenant
Eyes, we see coupleslike in the trauma, we like
in the heat of it all.
I mean, it is, right?
I mean, it is at the startof disclosure.
You know, everyone is heightenedstate of emotion.
But my understandingis that you guys
are on a journey with themthrough the other
(04:26):
side to the healing.
So let's talk a little bitabout what that looks like
and what that process is.
Yeah, yeah,we get a lot of those
same calls, right.
That I just found this out or Ijust finally confessed.
And what are we going to do?
And it's reallyabout building the key
components of anyhealthy relationship,
but make sure we're doing itin the right way.
(04:47):
You know, we will.
Sometimes people will ask peoplewhat they want out of a
relationship, right?
And they're like,I want to feel like we're one.
I want to feel unified.
I want to feel closerthan we've ever been.
Right?
And and that's what they wantright away.
And we say, that's great,that's wonderful.
But if you don't rebuildfrom the from the ground up,
you're really going to struggleto get what you want.
(05:08):
And so that foundation iswhat was really destroyed
in the betrayal,which is the loss of honesty.
And so everything startswith rebuilding honesty,
reestablishing that that senseof transparency and openness
in the relationship.
That's what allows usto rebuild safety,
(05:30):
because that's the other thingthat was lost, right?
We lost honesty.
We lost safetybecause of my actions
and willingnessto kind of withhold from Joanna,
which was why we didn'thave trust anymore.
Right.
And so we take honesty.
We we put safety on top of that.
And those are a lot of,a lot of individual work
is happening in those levels.
(05:50):
And so we work a lotwith individuals at first
to rebuild that honesty,that safety.
Once those are in place,that's when the couple
they get to start leaning backin towards each other
and kind of workingon that trust on that.
In their dependancebeing in us again and healing
the relational woundsthat the betrayal
caused as well.
And as that trust is gettingstronger, rebuilt,
(06:11):
it paves the wayfor stepping in, risking again
in vulnerability,but this time with a good reason
to take thatrisk, are some evidence
that taking that riskwill result in health
and healing, not harm.
And so as we get to show up moreand more vulnerable
with each other, that's whatbegins to rebuild
(06:31):
that intimacy. Yeah.
And that's what we've realizedis that people want
that vulnerability.
They want to be open.
They want to be transparent.
They want to risk.
But it's the fears of, you know,my fear was if she ever
finds out some of the thingsthat I've done will never have
anything right.
For Joanna in recovery.
It was, is he going to go backto that life? Right?
(06:53):
Is he going to returnback to those practices?
And so that's whythat kind of honesty,
safety and trust,that foundation is so important.
That's what gives the potentialfor a couple to move
into scary spaces.
And it's when we moveinto those scary spaces
that we seethe kind of connection
that we've been dreaming of.
Well, thank you so much for,first of all,
(07:13):
sharing your story.
And then talkingabout the beginning of,
the process you kind ofwalk couples through,
like yourselves.
We at Covenant Eyesand me personally,
I have a lot of passion,and as do you
for seeing marriages be.
Well, I mean, when it's good,it's really good.
But it can also becauseit's vulnerable, right?
(07:33):
It can also leadto a lot of, hurt and pain when,
you know, not done rightor even just,
a moment of neglect or whatever.
So I think it's amazingthat you guys, do this work.
One of the thingsabout pornography
is when you lookat the Barna statistics,
about 54% of practicingChristians view pornography,
(07:54):
at least occasionally.
And they don't a lot of themdon't see it as a problem.
So how can couples recognize thethe harm that pornography
is doing spiritually,relationally, and start
to actually uproot itand heal their lives
in their marriagesfrom it? Yeah.
I think one of the waysis to start talking about it.
Most of those peoplewho are using it
aren't talking about it.
(08:15):
We will ask couplesa lot of times, you know,
is this a conversationyou have? Right?
We might ask a wife,if you ask your husband
whether he watches pornographyor not, right.
Many timesthese are conversations
that are being avoided.
Right.
That's what I would dowith Joanna, right?
Whenever the topicwould come up,
I would kind of skirt around it.
I would I would talkabout my long
(08:35):
hidden past, right?
As if it was not apart of our present.
And so that's wherethat honesty piece right out is.
Even if you're nota couple restoring
from kind of infidelity,just a couple that's
coming into marriage going,are we going to be real
about the things of this world?
And are we going to talk aboutwhether it has
an effect on us or not?
(08:57):
Because I thinkthe reality is, is that
I wanted to believe thatwhat I was doing wasn't hurting
anyone, myself and Joanna.
But I knew deep in my soulthat it was it was why
I wanted to stop.
It was why I wasn't, you know,if if I thought what I was
doing was good, I probablywould have been telling
a lot of peopleabout it, because that
when I find a great restaurant,that's what I do.
(09:18):
I'm like, hey, have you been tothis place?
Have you had their pizza? Right?
That's not what I was doingwith pornography.
That's not what I was doingwith my sexual behaviors.
I was hiding them.
I was keeping them from peoplebecause I knew they didn't align
with my values.
And starting to understandand talk about, like,
what are the valuesthat pornography is teaching us
(09:38):
and realizing that the thingswe're engaging,
spending our timeon, like they are
shaping us in some waywhen we're consuming media
that is teaches methat I get what I want,
when I want it,how I want it. Right.
That is going to shapenot not just your sexuality,
but your character.
(09:59):
And really, for so many coupleswe work with,
it deeply has impactedtheir relationship,
their experienceof sexuality together
and just absolutely destroyed itbecause one of them is coming in
from this very self gratifying,selfish framework
that they've learned.
They're not doing itintentionally, but that's what
they've been consuming.
(10:19):
That's who they have beenshaping themself to be
and to show up in their life.
And so especially as Christians,I think there is such a weight
on us to understand and helpothers understand
how deadly this can befor a thriving life in Christ.
And I just want to ask onefollow up question
while I have you here.
(10:40):
In regard to kind of thepersonal aspect of how
this played out in your life,one of the, therapists
who has a YouTube channel,who I listen to, the doctor,
John Baloney, how often saythat when you're holding
something back from your spouse,they know they may not
know what it is,but they feel the void.
They feel something'sbeing held back.
(11:00):
So my question, Joanna,is when he was holding
that back from you,did you feel that
void there? Do you.
Resent. 300%.
And it drives you crazybecause you feel the void,
but you can't like pointto a reason for it, right?
So so when we were connected,when we were good,
we were really goodand it was great.
And I could feel the intimacy.
And then all of a sudden,nowhere out of the blue,
(11:23):
he would be shut down,withdrawn, short
and angry. Right.
Like these emotionsthat made no sense
in the context of the lifethat I knew with him.
And it was and I wouldI would bring it up.
We would talk about it.
We would spin in circles.
There was no clear answer,no clear reason.
And so it was very hardfeeling like that in the dark
(11:47):
that lost for so long,not knowing what was going on.
I think that'sreally interesting
because we hear thatquite frequently.
It's kind of the women's,the wife's intuition.
I mean, wewe sense those things.
I mean, we also have itas mothers like, you know,
something's off,right, with your kids.
We just God has gifted uswith this ability.
(12:07):
And we hear thatquite frequently.
You know, thatthe wife will sense
something is off.
It's so it's sointeresting to me that,
you experience thatin your own life.
I want to kind of pivota little bit because, you know,
you guys are workingwith so many different couples
and the younger generation.
I mean, we have a coupleof generations
now that have been raised ina porn ified world.
(12:29):
I mean, they grow upon technology.
They're being exposedas young children.
And that is, like you mentioned,really shaping
how they view sex, how they viewthe other gender, how
they they interactwith one another.
And now we're even seeingwith 44% of Christian women
struggling with pornography,we could have both people
(12:50):
in the relationshipwith sexual brokenness
coming to the tableand trying to build
a unified marriagewith so much baggage
already there.
So talk to us a little bitabout some of
what you're seeing,how things are changing
as you work with differentdemographics and different age
groups and, and just whatthat's like.
Yeah.
One idea, I think.
(13:11):
Exactly. Right.
We've justwe've created a culture in which
everything hasbecome acceptable.
And so and, and by doing that,what we've done is
we've just, we've built this liethat things don't have impact.
And so, yeah, you'rebringing people in
and they don't know the reasonsfor their problems
because they're assumingeverything they're doing
is fine.
They don't see itas an issue. Right.
(13:32):
That was even somethingthat I was dealing with.
Like I knew what I was doingwas wrong, but I had
so justified it in my mindand so compartmentalized it
that I could not seewhat it was doing to us
for years. Right.
I would, I would alwayswant to say, oh, it was work
stress or it's financial issuesbetween us, or we're just
we have differentpersonalities, right?
(13:53):
I could find anything to blameother than the very thing
that was kind of eatingme up from the inside.
And, and it's interesting, Ithink that that even
in younger generations,because I have I'll have a lot
of younger guys sometimesreach out to me because they can
just tell there is,I think, a sense
(14:14):
even when it's becomeso normalized, there's a deep
sense of discontent.
I think people want morethan they're
getting out of life.
They want morethan they're getting out
of relationships.
And and the hard partis helping them realize
you're your own worst enemy.
I think that'swhere the challenge is,
is that often when we want more,we look externally.
(14:36):
We're like,who's at fault, right?
Is it my wife or my husbandor my parents to blame?
Right.
What's the reason?
And helping people to seethere are things
that you're doing right.
Things that you'reengaging with, that are
really pullingyou out of the life
you deserve to live.
And I think realizing that it'snot just the sexual experiences,
(14:57):
but the sexualnarratives that are then
getting shape that we'rebringing into relationship
and those expectations and basedon those narratives.
Right.
And I don't knowanyone that doesn't come in
with some sort of flawedsexual narrative, right?
In their relationship based onthe proliferation of unhealthy
sex narrativesout there in culture
and even in the church.
(15:18):
Right.
And so realizing,okay, two broken
people with unhealthysexual narratives
coming togetherto try and create a three
and thriving, flourishingintimacy and sexuality together,
I was like, that's going tobe really hard.
And I think the other pieceis like realizing
it's okay to need help.
(15:38):
More people need helpthan don't need help.
And so I, you know,just realizing, like, there are
people out there you can talk towho can support you in figuring
this stuff out.
You know, we went toand recommend people
go to a sex therapist like, it'sokay to talk about this,
to learn to understandit, to gather, to reshape
(15:58):
your sexual narrative togetherin a healthy way.
So now as we start to talkabout the experiences
and what we want moving forward,we're coming
from a unified place.
I love that.
And you, you broughtthis up briefly,
but I want to actuallycircle back around to it.
You mentioned the church.
And, you know,the church certainly is,
(16:20):
struggling to address this,in many ways.
And I think it's you know,there's a lot of reasons
for that.
But, you know,the church needs to be
a beacon of hope.
It needs to be a lightto the world and a place, a safe
haven for all thosewho are struggling with this
sexual brokenness.
It's where we should be seekinganswers and and support
(16:40):
and accountabilityand all the things.
So as you'reworking with couples
and even in your ownjourney, talk to me a little bit
about what your experience was,finding that connection
and that supportand that healing
in the church itself.
It was definitely hitor miss, I think, it was
the church isn't battinga thousand right now.
(17:01):
And I get that.
I mean, I was a pastorwho was hiding a secret
sexual addiction.
So, I mean, I,I can't necessarily.
Right, you know, throw a stoneand not pick up my own
and go, hey, wait,what's going on here?
And so, I do think but I willsay there are also pockets
of communities of believerswho are recognizing that,
(17:21):
that we will get nowherebeing against something,
but what we willwhat we can do is
we can be for something.
We can be for the life God wantsfor his people.
And I think that really for uswas what turned the page for us,
was finding believerswho had allowed God
into their life in new waysand created for them a life
(17:44):
that they were excitedabout living. Right.
And I think that that'sthe challenge is that, you know,
these coping behaviorslike numbing out
with pornographyor phones or alcohol
or all these things that we knoware destructive.
They still workin some way, right?
They alleviatepain and suffering.
And so I think part of the callof the church, like you said, is
(18:04):
if we can be a peoplewho alleviate pain
and suffering,we have an opportunity
to to kind of draw peopleout of the things
that are really kind of endingtheir life, right, making things
so difficult.
And there is moreand more awareness
growing, thankfully,in the church
and just in cultureabout socially, about trauma.
I think a lot of partnerswho've experienced
(18:26):
betrayal trauma felt so aloneand so isolated.
And so I think there'sa lot of hope in that, that
that's somethingthat's being talked
about more and more.
So hopefullychurches are starting
to become safer and safer placesfor these partners
in these coupleswho are walking through
this journey.
A field hospital,kind of like our Pope
Francis alwayscall them. Yeah, yeah.
(18:49):
Well with that we, weactually are coming
to the end of today's episode,but I want to make sure
that our listenershave a way to connect with you,
and your ministryand get the help and support
that they're looking for.
So where do they findyou guys online?
The easiest place to find usis at RaabsmithTeam.com.
Like I say, we're the onlyRaabsmiths in the world.
(19:10):
We combined our last nameso it's super easy to find us.
And one of the thingsthat we love to do is we love to
share resources.
We were so blessedwhen people gave us resources
in our journey.
And so we createda daily check in because we know
how important it is for couplesto just have a small space,
whether they'rein recovery or not.
(19:31):
Yeah, but to have thatsmall space to connect,
to express, to kind of identifyand reflect on their day
and to share itwith their partner.
And so we built a checkin a few years ago
that we really love.
And that is a free,you know, share that
we would love people to haveso they can go to
RaabsmithTeam.com/freeand get that free resource.
(19:52):
They can start using itin their relationship
right away.
Amazing.
Well we'll put thelink in the show notes for sure.
And listeners definitely checkthat out.
I think it'shealthy and a great tool
for any of you,any marriage really.
I mean, whether you'rein recovery or whether you just
are looking to strengthenand deepen your relationship
with your spouse,but it's such an important tool.
(20:13):
So thank you for creating that.
And thank you for being willingto share your testimony
today and, and all of the thingsthat you're doing
with your ministry.
I think we needall hands on deck
because this issueis not going away.
And we need to addressit head on as a church body.
So thank you so muchfor joining us.
Of course.
Thanks for having us.
Absolutely.
(20:33):
Well, to all of our listenersout there, thanks for tuning in
to this episodeof The Covenant Eyes Podcast.
You can learn moreabout our guests
in the show notes,so make sure you check them out,
check out the free resources.
And until next time,we'll see you again
soon. God bless.
Take care.
Hey everybody, welcome backto The Covenant Eyes Podcast.
It's awesome to have youjoining us today.
We have got two incredibleguests joining us,
and we also have oneof our favorite co-hosts
back, Theo.
Welcome back to the podcast.
How are you.
Karen. Doing great.
Thanks for having me on.
It's always a pleasureto co-host with you.
Of course, we were havingall sorts of fun tech challenges
(00:27):
before the show, so that meansthis conversation is going to be
off the hook.
I just know it.
This is going to be a supergreat conversation on.
Our listenersare going to be super
blessed by it.
Absolutely. Yeah.
It's going to be fantastic.
Well, without further ado, let'sgo ahead and introduce
our guest, Theo,and get started on
today's conversation.
All right.
So we have, it's kind of a bita different episode
(00:51):
than, that you and Ihave have been
on together. Karen.
But we have the Raabsmith team.
Matt and Joanna.
Matt and Joanna, thank you forjoining us today.
Could you tell us a little bitbefore we do anything else,
can you tell us a little bitabout yourself
and, your ministry?
Yeah.
Thank you so much.
Super excited to be here.
Glad it worked out.
(01:11):
All the tech stuff.
This is done now.
We, we run a practice,a kind of coaching
and counseling practicespecifically for couples
who are in recoveryfrom sexual addiction,
problematic sexualbehavior, betrayal.
Part of thatis because of our own
personal journey.
We've been doing thatfor a number of years.
We love our work, and loveto get to, really engage
(01:35):
couples in and help themkind of find the marriage
that they really, really want.
Yeah.
So we are also authorsand speakers, wrote
a book called BuildingTrue Intimacy,
and we're also parentsof three young children,
so we stay very busy.
That's incredible.
Well, welcome to the podcast,and I would love to dive into
a little bit about how you guysgot started in this line
(01:57):
and work.
You mentioned youguys had your own
personal testimony and story.
If you're comfortable,you know, maybe share
with our listeners a little bitof the context on, you know, how
you guys got towhere you are today.
Yeah, yeah, not on purpose.
This was not thethis was not the thing
that we put on thewhat do you want to be when you
grow up cars.
But we did we, we had adesire to,
(02:18):
to help marriages earlyon in our relationship.
We didn't think it wasgoing to be around this topic,
but once, once the realityof my sexual addiction
and pornography usagekind of imploded.
Our relationship,we had to reorient what life was
going to be.
And we were.
We were so devastated by it.
(02:38):
I think both personally,that when we started recovering,
we really wantedto understand that
and we really wanted to,I think, dive in deep.
And so I kind of went all into personal recovery,
understanding, sexual addiction,understanding,
like what was going on with me,why I had kind of done
the things had done, whyI brought it
into our relationship.
Joanna obviously was dealingwith something
(02:59):
very different. Right.
The impacts of betrayaland this, this trauma
that had just been kindof thrown
in her lap and exploded.
And then as a couple,we wanted to dive in,
but there really wasn'tmany resources
for couples at the time.
This is over a decade ago,and there was very little on
the couple's healing journey.
And so we had a lot ofbumps and bruises along the way
(03:22):
trying to figure out.
Wondering, you know.
Wondering in the desert,trying to figure out, like,
what does it look like?
Because we didn'twant to just survive it, right?
It wasn't like we just want tostay married.
We wanted to really thriveon the other side.
We wanted a relationshipthat we were really excited
and passionate about again.
But it was really hardto know, like, is that possible?
How do you get there?
(03:43):
And so kind of in our journeyand what we're
learning professionallyand then starting
to work with others,we actually began
to develop a frameworkfor relationships
wanting to healfrom sexual addiction,
from betrayal trauma,and kind of creating
a framework.
So we now help other couplesthrough that framework.
That's amazing.
Let's talk a little bitabout that framework
(04:04):
and just kind of how you guidecouples to the other side,
because often,especially Covenant
Eyes, we see coupleslike in the trauma, we like
in the heat of it all.
I mean, it is, right?
I mean, it is at the startof disclosure.
You know, everyone is heightenedstate of emotion.
But my understandingis that you guys
are on a journey with themthrough the other
(04:26):
side to the healing.
So let's talk a little bitabout what that looks like
and what that process is.
Yeah, yeah,we get a lot of those
same calls, right.
That I just found this out or Ijust finally confessed.
And what are we going to do?
And it's reallyabout building the key
components of anyhealthy relationship,
but make sure we're doing itin the right way.
(04:47):
You know, we will.
Sometimes people will ask peoplewhat they want out of a
relationship, right?
And they're like,I want to feel like we're one.
I want to feel unified.
I want to feel closerthan we've ever been.
Right?
And and that's what they wantright away.
And we say, that's great,that's wonderful.
But if you don't rebuildfrom the from the ground up,
you're really going to struggleto get what you want.
(05:08):
And so that foundation iswhat was really destroyed
in the betrayal,which is the loss of honesty.
And so everything startswith rebuilding honesty,
reestablishing that that senseof transparency and openness
in the relationship.
That's what allows usto rebuild safety,
(05:30):
because that's the other thingthat was lost, right?
We lost honesty.
We lost safetybecause of my actions
and willingnessto kind of withhold from Joanna,
which was why we didn'thave trust anymore.
Right.
And so we take honesty.
We we put safety on top of that.
And those are a lot of,a lot of individual work
is happening in those levels.
(05:50):
And so we work a lotwith individuals at first
to rebuild that honesty,that safety.
Once those are in place,that's when the couple
they get to start leaning backin towards each other
and kind of workingon that trust on that.
In their dependancebeing in us again and healing
the relational woundsthat the betrayal
caused as well.
And as that trust is gettingstronger, rebuilt,
(06:11):
it paves the wayfor stepping in, risking again
in vulnerability,but this time with a good reason
to take thatrisk, are some evidence
that taking that riskwill result in health
and healing, not harm.
And so as we get to show up moreand more vulnerable
with each other, that's whatbegins to rebuild
(06:31):
that intimacy. Yeah.
And that's what we've realizedis that people want
that vulnerability.
They want to be open.
They want to be transparent.
They want to risk.
But it's the fears of, you know,my fear was if she ever
finds out some of the thingsthat I've done will never have
anything right.
For Joanna in recovery.
It was, is he going to go backto that life? Right?
(06:53):
Is he going to returnback to those practices?
And so that's whythat kind of honesty,
safety and trust,that foundation is so important.
That's what gives the potentialfor a couple to move
into scary spaces.
And it's when we moveinto those scary spaces
that we seethe kind of connection
that we've been dreaming of.
Well, thank you so much for,first of all,
(07:13):
sharing your story.
And then talkingabout the beginning of,
the process you kind ofwalk couples through,
like yourselves.
We at Covenant Eyesand me personally,
I have a lot of passion,and as do you
for seeing marriages be.
Well, I mean, when it's good,it's really good.
But it can also becauseit's vulnerable, right?
(07:33):
It can also leadto a lot of, hurt and pain when,
you know, not done rightor even just,
a moment of neglect or whatever.
So I think it's amazingthat you guys, do this work.
One of the thingsabout pornography
is when you lookat the Barna statistics,
about 54% of practicingChristians view pornography,
(07:54):
at least occasionally.
And they don't a lot of themdon't see it as a problem.
So how can couples recognize thethe harm that pornography
is doing spiritually,relationally, and start
to actually uproot itand heal their lives
in their marriagesfrom it? Yeah.
I think one of the waysis to start talking about it.
Most of those peoplewho are using it
aren't talking about it.
(08:15):
We will ask couplesa lot of times, you know,
is this a conversationyou have? Right?
We might ask a wife,if you ask your husband
whether he watches pornographyor not, right.
Many timesthese are conversations
that are being avoided.
Right.
That's what I would dowith Joanna, right?
Whenever the topicwould come up,
I would kind of skirt around it.
I would I would talkabout my long
(08:35):
hidden past, right?
As if it was not apart of our present.
And so that's wherethat honesty piece right out is.
Even if you're nota couple restoring
from kind of infidelity,just a couple that's
coming into marriage going,are we going to be real
about the things of this world?
And are we going to talk aboutwhether it has
an effect on us or not?
(08:57):
Because I thinkthe reality is, is that
I wanted to believe thatwhat I was doing wasn't hurting
anyone, myself and Joanna.
But I knew deep in my soulthat it was it was why
I wanted to stop.
It was why I wasn't, you know,if if I thought what I was
doing was good, I probablywould have been telling
a lot of peopleabout it, because that
when I find a great restaurant,that's what I do.
(09:18):
I'm like, hey, have you been tothis place?
Have you had their pizza? Right?
That's not what I was doingwith pornography.
That's not what I was doingwith my sexual behaviors.
I was hiding them.
I was keeping them from peoplebecause I knew they didn't align
with my values.
And starting to understandand talk about, like,
what are the valuesthat pornography is teaching us
(09:38):
and realizing that the thingswe're engaging,
spending our timeon, like they are
shaping us in some waywhen we're consuming media
that is teaches methat I get what I want,
when I want it,how I want it. Right.
That is going to shapenot not just your sexuality,
but your character.
(09:59):
And really, for so many coupleswe work with,
it deeply has impactedtheir relationship,
their experienceof sexuality together
and just absolutely destroyed itbecause one of them is coming in
from this very self gratifying,selfish framework
that they've learned.
They're not doing itintentionally, but that's what
they've been consuming.
(10:19):
That's who they have beenshaping themself to be
and to show up in their life.
And so especially as Christians,I think there is such a weight
on us to understand and helpothers understand
how deadly this can befor a thriving life in Christ.
And I just want to ask onefollow up question
while I have you here.
(10:40):
In regard to kind of thepersonal aspect of how
this played out in your life,one of the, therapists
who has a YouTube channel,who I listen to, the doctor,
John Baloney, how often saythat when you're holding
something back from your spouse,they know they may not
know what it is,but they feel the void.
They feel something'sbeing held back.
(11:00):
So my question, Joanna,is when he was holding
that back from you,did you feel that
void there? Do you.
Resent. 300%.
And it drives you crazybecause you feel the void,
but you can't like pointto a reason for it, right?
So so when we were connected,when we were good,
we were really goodand it was great.
And I could feel the intimacy.
And then all of a sudden,nowhere out of the blue,
(11:23):
he would be shut down,withdrawn, short
and angry. Right.
Like these emotionsthat made no sense
in the context of the lifethat I knew with him.
And it was and I wouldI would bring it up.
We would talk about it.
We would spin in circles.
There was no clear answer,no clear reason.
And so it was very hardfeeling like that in the dark
(11:47):
that lost for so long,not knowing what was going on.
I think that'sreally interesting
because we hear thatquite frequently.
It's kind of the women's,the wife's intuition.
I mean, wewe sense those things.
I mean, we also have itas mothers like, you know,
something's off,right, with your kids.
We just God has gifted uswith this ability.
(12:07):
And we hear thatquite frequently.
You know, thatthe wife will sense
something is off.
It's so it's sointeresting to me that,
you experience thatin your own life.
I want to kind of pivota little bit because, you know,
you guys are workingwith so many different couples
and the younger generation.
I mean, we have a coupleof generations
now that have been raised ina porn ified world.
(12:29):
I mean, they grow upon technology.
They're being exposedas young children.
And that is, like you mentioned,really shaping
how they view sex, how they viewthe other gender, how
they they interactwith one another.
And now we're even seeingwith 44% of Christian women
struggling with pornography,we could have both people
(12:50):
in the relationshipwith sexual brokenness
coming to the tableand trying to build
a unified marriagewith so much baggage
already there.
So talk to us a little bitabout some of
what you're seeing,how things are changing
as you work with differentdemographics and different age
groups and, and just whatthat's like.
Yeah.
One idea, I think.
(13:11):
Exactly. Right.
We've justwe've created a culture in which
everything hasbecome acceptable.
And so and, and by doing that,what we've done is
we've just, we've built this liethat things don't have impact.
And so, yeah, you'rebringing people in
and they don't know the reasonsfor their problems
because they're assumingeverything they're doing
is fine.
They don't see itas an issue. Right.
(13:32):
That was even somethingthat I was dealing with.
Like I knew what I was doingwas wrong, but I had
so justified it in my mindand so compartmentalized it
that I could not seewhat it was doing to us
for years. Right.
I would, I would alwayswant to say, oh, it was work
stress or it's financial issuesbetween us, or we're just
we have differentpersonalities, right?
(13:53):
I could find anything to blameother than the very thing
that was kind of eatingme up from the inside.
And, and it's interesting, Ithink that that even
in younger generations,because I have I'll have a lot
of younger guys sometimesreach out to me because they can
just tell there is,I think, a sense
(14:14):
even when it's becomeso normalized, there's a deep
sense of discontent.
I think people want morethan they're
getting out of life.
They want morethan they're getting out
of relationships.
And and the hard partis helping them realize
you're your own worst enemy.
I think that'swhere the challenge is,
is that often when we want more,we look externally.
(14:36):
We're like,who's at fault, right?
Is it my wife or my husbandor my parents to blame?
Right.
What's the reason?
And helping people to seethere are things
that you're doing right.
Things that you'reengaging with, that are
really pullingyou out of the life
you deserve to live.
And I think realizing that it'snot just the sexual experiences,
(14:57):
but the sexualnarratives that are then
getting shape that we'rebringing into relationship
and those expectations and basedon those narratives.
Right.
And I don't knowanyone that doesn't come in
with some sort of flawedsexual narrative, right?
In their relationship based onthe proliferation of unhealthy
sex narrativesout there in culture
and even in the church.
(15:18):
Right.
And so realizing,okay, two broken
people with unhealthysexual narratives
coming togetherto try and create a three
and thriving, flourishingintimacy and sexuality together,
I was like, that's going tobe really hard.
And I think the other pieceis like realizing
it's okay to need help.
(15:38):
More people need helpthan don't need help.
And so I, you know,just realizing, like, there are
people out there you can talk towho can support you in figuring
this stuff out.
You know, we went toand recommend people
go to a sex therapist like, it'sokay to talk about this,
to learn to understandit, to gather, to reshape
(15:58):
your sexual narrative togetherin a healthy way.
So now as we start to talkabout the experiences
and what we want moving forward,we're coming
from a unified place.
I love that.
And you, you broughtthis up briefly,
but I want to actuallycircle back around to it.
You mentioned the church.
And, you know,the church certainly is,
(16:20):
struggling to address this,in many ways.
And I think it's you know,there's a lot of reasons
for that.
But, you know,the church needs to be
a beacon of hope.
It needs to be a lightto the world and a place, a safe
haven for all thosewho are struggling with this
sexual brokenness.
It's where we should be seekinganswers and and support
(16:40):
and accountabilityand all the things.
So as you'reworking with couples
and even in your ownjourney, talk to me a little bit
about what your experience was,finding that connection
and that supportand that healing
in the church itself.
It was definitely hitor miss, I think, it was
the church isn't battinga thousand right now.
(17:01):
And I get that.
I mean, I was a pastorwho was hiding a secret
sexual addiction.
So, I mean, I,I can't necessarily.
Right, you know, throw a stoneand not pick up my own
and go, hey, wait,what's going on here?
And so, I do think but I willsay there are also pockets
of communities of believerswho are recognizing that,
(17:21):
that we will get nowherebeing against something,
but what we willwhat we can do is
we can be for something.
We can be for the life God wantsfor his people.
And I think that really for uswas what turned the page for us,
was finding believerswho had allowed God
into their life in new waysand created for them a life
(17:44):
that they were excitedabout living. Right.
And I think that that'sthe challenge is that, you know,
these coping behaviorslike numbing out
with pornographyor phones or alcohol
or all these things that we knoware destructive.
They still workin some way, right?
They alleviatepain and suffering.
And so I think part of the callof the church, like you said, is
(18:04):
if we can be a peoplewho alleviate pain
and suffering,we have an opportunity
to to kind of draw peopleout of the things
that are really kind of endingtheir life, right, making things
so difficult.
And there is moreand more awareness
growing, thankfully,in the church
and just in cultureabout socially, about trauma.
I think a lot of partnerswho've experienced
(18:26):
betrayal trauma felt so aloneand so isolated.
And so I think there'sa lot of hope in that, that
that's somethingthat's being talked
about more and more.
So hopefullychurches are starting
to become safer and safer placesfor these partners
in these coupleswho are walking through
this journey.
A field hospital,kind of like our Pope
Francis alwayscall them. Yeah, yeah.
(18:49):
Well with that we, weactually are coming
to the end of today's episode,but I want to make sure
that our listenershave a way to connect with you,
and your ministryand get the help and support
that they're looking for.
So where do they findyou guys online?
The easiest place to find usis at RaabsmithTeam.com.
Like I say, we're the onlyRaabsmiths in the world.
(19:10):
We combined our last nameso it's super easy to find us.
And one of the thingsthat we love to do is we love to
share resources.
We were so blessedwhen people gave us resources
in our journey.
And so we createda daily check in because we know
how important it is for couplesto just have a small space,
whether they'rein recovery or not.
(19:31):
Yeah, but to have thatsmall space to connect,
to express, to kind of identifyand reflect on their day
and to share itwith their partner.
And so we built a checkin a few years ago
that we really love.
And that is a free,you know, share that
we would love people to haveso they can go to
RaabsmithTeam.com/freeand get that free resource.
(19:52):
They can start using itin their relationship
right away.
Amazing.
Well we'll put thelink in the show notes for sure.
And listeners definitely checkthat out.
I think it'shealthy and a great tool
for any of you,any marriage really.
I mean, whether you'rein recovery or whether you just
are looking to strengthenand deepen your relationship
with your spouse,but it's such an important tool.
(20:13):
So thank you for creating that.
And thank you for being willingto share your testimony
today and, and all of the thingsthat you're doing
with your ministry.
I think we needall hands on deck
because this issueis not going away.
And we need to addressit head on as a church body.
So thank you so muchfor joining us.
Of course.
Thanks for having us.
Absolutely.
(20:33):
Well, to all of our listenersout there, thanks for tuning in
to this episodeof The Covenant Eyes Podcast.
You can learn moreabout our guests
in the show notes,so make sure you check them out,
check out the free resources.
And until next time,we'll see you again
soon. God bless.
Take care.
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