November 19, 2025 • 25 mins
Join host Rob Stoddard for an impactful discussion with Geremy Keeton, Senior Director of Counseling Services at Focus on the Family. With more than two decades of experience as a licensed marriage and family therapist, Geremy brings deep, compassionate insight into how families can heal, reconnect, and thrive in Christ.
In this episode, you’ll hear:
✓ The most common ways hidden struggles impact marriages
✓ Why trust is often the first casualty — and how to rebuild it
✓ The myths couples believe that make healing harder
✓ What a healthy, transformative accountability relationship really looks like
✓ Practical, hopeful guidance for parents raising children in a digital world
✓ The role of the church in fostering healing, support, and restoration
✓ Key Focus on the Family resources for individuals, couples, and pastors
Geremy also shares wisdom from Focus on the Family’s counseling team, who serve thousands each month through free ministry consultations.
📘 Featured Resource: Aftershock — A step-by-step guide for couples recovering from betrayal
🔗 Focus on the Family Help Line: 1-800-A-FAMILY
🔗 Focus on the Family Resources: https://www.focusonthefamily.com
🔗 Recommended Resource Hub: https://focusonthefamily.com/pornography
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If this conversation encourages you, please like, comment, and share to help others discover practical hope for their homes.
#FocusOnTheFamily #MarriageHealing #ChristianCounseling #CovenantEyesPodcast #FamilyRestoration #DigitalIntegrity #ChristianMarriage #ParentingWisdom #FaithAndFamily
CHAPTERS:
00:00 – Welcome
00:28 – Introducing guest Geremy Keeton
00:52 – Geremy’s background & 23 years at Focus on the Family
02:03 – Issues couples bring to their first phone call
02:31 – How hidden struggles impact marriages & families
03:38 – Spouses coping with fear, shock, and confusion
04:04 – How integrity affects a believer’s walk with God
04:57 – Challenges for families teaching healthy sexuality
05:29 – The deep relational damage Geremy’s team sees
05:58 – Common myths couples believe
06:52 – The myth of “just have a more exciting marriage”
07:17 – Why a “send him/her to get fixed” mindset fails
07:47 – Three journeys of recovery: husband, wife, and marriage
08:43 – Why the issue is deeper than the unwanted behavior
09:12 – What truly drives relational disconnection
09:38 – The myth of “just try harder or pray harder”
10:08 – What healthy accountability actually looks like
11:20 – Transformative relationships vs. check-in relationships
13:04 – Avoiding shame-based accountability
13:33 – Parents: how to start healthy conversations with kids
14:49 – Sex education as prevention
15:27 – Teaching dignity, protection, and healthy boundaries
17:16 – What churches can do to help
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
Well.
Good afternoon.
Welcome to The CovenantEyes Podcast.
I'm your hosttoday, Rob Stoddard.
My co-host Karen Potter isis off today.
And so it's just going to bebe me solo.
But, but I do have awonderful guest today,
and I think you'rereally going to enjoy
this conversation.
I'd like to introduceGeremy Keaton.
Geremy is the senior directorof counseling services
(00:27):
at Focus on the Family.
Geremy, welcome to TheCovenant Eyes Podcast.
Rob. Thank you.
It's a pleasureto speak with friends
at Covenant Eyes,and we love supporting
those that you'rein relationship with, as well.
So thanks for the invitefrom Focus. Well, great.
Well, Geremy, as we start out,would you just tell us,
tell our listenersjust a little bit about yourself
(00:47):
and and also your role there at,Focus on the Family
in your ministry.
Thanks, Rob.
I'm a marriageand family therapist.
I'm, clinicallytrained in helping couples.
That's my background.
I've workedat Focus on the Family
since the beginningof my counseling
career, 23 years.
And, I've been at this greatministry, and,
(01:09):
we love helping familiesthrive in Christ.
And that includeshelping marriages and parents.
And we do,phone consultations here
at the ministry, complementary,ministry consultations
from licensed and pastoral,specialists in mental health,
various disciplines.
(01:29):
And I lead that team.
I'm the directorof our counseling team.
We have right around 20 folkson our phone lines,
and we talk to about 1100people a month
in this departmentof the ministry.
And of course, the ministry has,a lot of, a lot of content,
a lot of web articles and manyaspects of family
helping materials.
(01:49):
And then people call usin response to that,
and we get to talkabout everything
from potty trainingto pornography addiction
and everything in betweenas we consult with people
here at Focus.
Now that's wonderful.
It's a wonderful ministryand so, so well-regarded,
for sure.
Well, let's just jump in,talk a little bit about this.
(02:12):
So at Focus on the Family,you're working closely
with individuals,mainly couples.
Some of those are strugglingwith pornography
and sexual addiction.
You know, what kinds of issuesdo you typically see that
impact marriages and familiesaround this issue
of pornography?
Well, we we get the privilege,the sacred privilege to
(02:35):
sometimes be the first phonecall that a husband or wife,
a mom or dad make when they'relooking for resources
and in some ways,dealing with the fallout
or the shock of a discoveryof pornography
use in their home, in disruptingtheir marriage.
And so we experience, first off,a lot of trust from individuals
(02:58):
because they'refeeling oftentimes
panic, fear or shame.
That comes from,what happens as a result
of habitual or addictivepornography use.
You know, I seeregularly our team
sees regularlyat a real basic bottom
line level as pornography issueshurt hearts.
(03:23):
This is not a this is notI mean, our instincts tell us
this is not family friendly,marriage friendly
material, despite what isbeing kind of sold
and trumpeted as,you know, this is free
and harmless.
There's so many things.
And you talk about itall the time on your podcast,
and I don't your listenersprobably don't need that
(03:45):
specific education about all thebrain damage, literally,
that's happening.
But it hurts hearts, spouses,you know, spouses
don't feel that they arethe single apple of the eye
of of their of their husbandor wife when the one of them
is habitually using pornography.
I see that it hurts faith.
(04:06):
For those that, you know,want to live in line
with their deeply held faith,their religious faith,
with their walk with God,there is an inconsistency
when you know that lust iscontrolling you.
So there's a distancingwith God, a chilling of
the relationship, or at least,hiding even like in the Garden
(04:27):
of Eden.
Right? Hiding from God.
That happens.
But when we allow thisto just set up
camp in our lives,it also for Christians
violates the the symbolof radical exclusivity.
Sexuality is builtfor the believer
on radical exclusivity.
(04:47):
And so it it hurts that partof even being a
consistent witness.
And I can continue toto talk about what what we hear
as we talk with spouses.
But a lot of fear and,safety in the marriage,
a lot of questions.
And it progresses andpeople lose jobs, people.
I mean, there's a spectrumof how far it progresses
(05:08):
for different people,but just a lot of
of fall out compromiseand teaching your children
about healthy sexualityand pornography, if you yourself
are kind of running fromand burying your head
in the issue.
So I could keep going, Rob.
But that's some of what we seeas we talk with families,
and we're honored to helpget the healing process started.
(05:29):
Yeah, absolutely.
And you're right,we could continue on going on
and on because it's so deepand and hurts and, damages us in
so many areas.
Geremy, one of the thingswe kind of constantly hear
from couples and familiesis just the, maybe one partner
coming into, maybe a marriagecounseling session
(05:56):
and not quite there yet.
Maybe, not seeing all the lows,damage, damage areas
that that it's doing.
What are some of the mythsand misunderstandings
about pornography that, that,you know, men or women
bring into your counselingsessions?
Yes.
Which one to start with?
(06:17):
I think one of thefirst ones is, even in
Christian marriages,even sometimes from the church,
certainly from the culture,there's the myth that
if we just, you know,did more sex,
had a sexier marriage,it would solve this issue
(06:37):
of one of the partnersseeking out porn.
And the fact of the matter is,and sometimes not exclusively,
but often women are toldeither explicitly or tacitly.
It's suggested if youif you will
only serve your spouseor service your spouse
(06:59):
with being more, you know, maybeeven mimicking some things
that are in the pornography.
Right. And the kind of,spicing up the
marriage, having a pornified marriage
rather than, you know,a glorified and,
and godly view of sexthat somehow that that's okay.
And what you really should do.
So that breaks, breaks my heartbecause they're that's real.
(07:23):
I would even say diabolicalmisinformation.
Another one is,just send off the
the husband will say and get himfixed and then, you know,
just kind of a non couplebased approach to counseling
when this in factis both individuals
(07:44):
deserve attention and helpas well as the couples.
So there's kindof three journeys in recovery
the husband, the wifeor the user and the offended.
However you want to divide that,you know, the husband
or wife can be, the personusing pornography habitually.
But then there'sthe third entity,
(08:05):
which is the marriage.
And all three partsneed attention
at different paces,different stages.
And so it's not justsend an addicted person off
and then just kind ofthey need to do their thing
and just come back betterwhen actually there's
an opportunity.
It's hard to get there,but there's an opportunity
for the marriage systemto be revamped and retooled
(08:29):
so that you are actually betterthan you ever were
before this crash.
Right.
And so the myth of just sendone person away to get fixed.
And then there's,there's the myth
that it's reallyall about the sex
or the porn itself,that that's the issue.
And that's, that's the symptomof relational and emotional
things that are drivingthis particular symptom.
(08:52):
Right.
And I, I, you know, individualsthat could
stop using pornography and stillhave many of the
emotional deficits and maybeuse another
quote, substance. Right.
We all know situationswhere an alcoholic might
stop drinking and alcoholbut just switch
to another addiction.
Or they call itthe quote, dry drunk
(09:14):
syndrome of this.
This is not really all aboutjust the acting out.
That's what we thinkis the most hurtful,
but there's something driving itin your own history.
There's coping mechanismsthat you're using it
for as and you are, needing toexpand your emotional vocabulary
(09:36):
and your ability to be safeand intimate with people.
And then the pornography canbe supplanted in your life.
Or here's oneis just get a filter to just
get an accountabilitypartner and try harder.
Pray harder and just arrestthe behavior.
Grab grab Ahold of your chairand just white knuckle it,
(09:59):
you know,and just try really hard
and and and you know,pray harder.
The spiritual only solution.
And it's much moreholistic than that.
So those are some of the mythsthat I see in recovery efforts,
as well as misinformationabout sex, that are out there.
(10:20):
Yeah.
So true, so true.
You mentioned accountabilityand certainly, in what
you portrayed there100% accurate.
We know one of the thingsin marriages that, breaks down
is that trust betweenthe husband and wife.
Can you talk a little bit more,a little deeper about
(10:41):
the importance of accountabilityin that recovery process?
And really, what does healthyaccountability look like?
You know, that's right.
That's right.
And so, in mentioningaccountability partners,
I in no way want to suggest thatit's not an essential part
of a, a really like a threelegged stool, a stool doesn't
(11:02):
stand on its own.
You need community as well as,you know, counseling
and internal insights.
And what's so importantabout accountability?
I like to even think of the termof transformative relationships,
not just anaccountability partner.
I have someone walking with meto help me transform my life.
(11:24):
And so, accountability isa good word.
It I do need to beaccountable to people,
but I thinkhealthy accountability
is not merely behaviorcheck in based.
It is emotional wellness,bonding, attachment.
A safe place to say, here'shonestly where I was tempted
(11:45):
to go today,or where I did go today,
and somebody who can say,I'm with you, I hear you,
and let's discover, let's followthe breadcrumbs
backwards to the sourceof what your heart
was really needing,rather than, okay,
let's just again, kind of getin a situation where your
accountability partner issort of just cracking
(12:08):
the whip on you so thatyou have consequences
and you have to tell somebodyhow bad you are.
That's not it.
You want to bein a transformative brotherhood
or sisterhood that says,I see you how you are.
I love you anyway,and I'm going to help
you fill your heart.
I'm going to be a partnerin filling your heart
(12:30):
with the living water of lifeand the skills that it takes,
and that's what a good coachor counselor will do.
Do as well.
But you need somebodyin your day to day life.
You're you're you're not.
That's not yourpaid coach or counselor
that can just pass alongside youwhile you're doing your coaching
or counseling.
And I like to call ita transformative relationship
(12:54):
journeying partner.
Right.
That's the that's what defineshealthy and productive
accountability.
Rather than just check inand tell me if you've been bad.
And you know what?
Let me just kind of,let me just tell you,
you need to man up andand let me tell you what you're
what you're doing wrong.
And some accountability.
Relationships fall intosomething akin to that.
(13:18):
Right.
And that's wheregetting good material
from ministries that helpyou shape your accountability
in a way that it's a trulya transformative relationship.
Rather than a behaviormanagement relationship.
Yeah, well well said.
Well said.
I think the best definitionI've heard of accountability
(13:39):
relationship like that is whenyour partner is walking you
to the feet of Christ,just continually
bringing you backto that relationship.
And you, you talked about thattransformative, piece
that's that's so important,so wonderful.
Geremy, I'msure you talk with many,
you know, with, parents and,families are struggling
(14:05):
with this.
We know, you know, thethe terrible impact
it's having on the youth.
Now, talk a little bitabout what parents
can do proactivelyto really help educate
and protect their childrenaround this issue
of pornography.
Yeah, if you have small childrenespecially, but really,
any time,begin, begin to talk in,
(14:30):
especially with young childrenkind of early and often
about the goodness of the body,the protection of the body,
sexual educationand having tools for that
little storybooks.
There's resources out there.
There's resourceswe have from Focus
on the Family.
There's downloadableguides about language
you can use with your kids.
Anything aroundsexual education is,
(14:53):
has good potential tobe pornography, prevention.
And you can integrate teachinghealthy sexuality
the beauty of male and female.
Why God created marriage is asymbol of his love.
And you're sprinkling thesethese healthy sexual messages
early and often.
(15:16):
Even little thingslike when I would, take care
of our childrenand bathe our toddlers
at bedtime and cuddling and,and even teach them
about body protectionright as we're bathing.
Right in the in the end,you know, only mom and dad,
maybe a doctor would,help clean or touch,
this part of your bodywhile we're
(15:36):
washing, but our body so goodthat we protect it.
You talk about that goodness,you talk about protection,
and then you talk aboutthe dignity of other people
and why we don't,look at people in ways
that make them an objectfor us to look at
or for us to lust overwhen you can.
Lust is taking for the benefitof myself, not,
(16:00):
whereas love is servingfor the benefit of the other.
And you talk aboutthe difference
between love and lust,you're just slowly sprinkling
in these messagesand Focus on the Family.
We have a downloadablefree guide of all the language.
You can use itevery age and stage
on healthy sex ed in that,downloadable PDF file is, at
(16:23):
FocusOnTheFamily.com/thetalk.
And of course we knowthe talk is not one talk.
It's many talk.
So we're teachingyou how to have the talks.
As you download this littleguy to 18 page little,
I keep it in my home.
We have itand we review it, like,
(16:45):
as each of our kids have aged,have we really covered
these concepts that really needto be installed in their hearts
and in their language?
At each agent stage.
And that'sFocusOnTheFamily.com/thetalk.
And then there's, there's toybooks out there.
There's, you know,the classic good
pictures, bad pictures,these things that you've
(17:06):
probably linked tooff of your page
in your podcast before.
But earlyand often conversations
start with health,not just the bad.
Right. All right.
That's wonderful,wonderful advice.
And yeah, so needed.
Geremy, let me, switch,topics here a little bit.
I work with the church hereat Covenant Eyes.
(17:28):
Day in and day outand so many churches
are really strugglingon how to help.
And not just individuals,but families deal
with this issue of pornography.
So what would you say?
What's the role of the churchin really fostering
healing, helping provide, helpfor those that are struggling
with pornography?
Any any advice for churches?
(17:49):
Well, interestinglyenough, getting upstream of this
the same waythat I just talked about
with parents and parenting,parents or shepherd or
shepherding their child's heartsthrough healthy sex threat,
healthy sex education.
I think if a church has positivesermons, worldview
(18:11):
sermons, and apologeticfor why marriage is between
a man and a woman, all of theif pastors receive support
and, having,whether it's classes
in your model of churchor sermons around God's
design for sexualityand then out of that,
you can begin to talk about theand teach about the deviations
(18:35):
or where we naturally driftoff the mark.
And yet we find Jesusright there with us.
Talk about how the sexual sinnerin the New Testament,
if you really look at Jesus'sinteractions with
with those that are,you know, brought before him
or interacting around sexuality,it's it seems as if he's
the most compassionatewith those dealing with this
(18:57):
very personalized type of,sin or identity issue.
And so sermons in discussionsso that it's not just an us them
mentality of,well, we in the church
somehow are pious and actuallywe are all in a journey
of sanctification,and we're all made
(19:18):
with the goodness of sexuality,and we need to steward it in
our church.
We want to be about havingnot only teaching kids
about healthy sexuality,but about,
the friendship of Jesuswith the struggler.
And so having testimoniesand stories
of overcoming, havinggroups that are, well led, well,
(19:42):
you know, well educated,there are ministries out there
that we link tofrom Focus on the Family
that specialize this.
They have curriculum that haveonline groups
that have, retreats and they'rethey're not just or pray harder,
try harder type approach.
They're ministriesthat really understand
the body, the mind and thespiritual approach, to recovery.
(20:04):
Bring those ministriesin, have fliers on tables,
have Covenant Eyes materials outin the lobby,
run a Covenant Eyes,ad on your screen,
scrolling before after servicesas a recommended
resource for families.
Do the same with Focuson the families
(20:25):
pornography resources page.
It Focus on theFamily.com/pornography.
It's a onestop shop of ministries
that we refer to.
Articles,sex education materials,
have the specialized resourcesavailable and partner
with specialist ministriesbecause you don't need to do it
all as the church.
You need to knowwho can help you
(20:47):
and come alongside in a waythat's compatible.
And I a little biased,but I really Focus on the Family
as well as Covenant Eyes.
Are a couple of thosemany things out there
these days, with ministryspecializing
in this kind of care.
Give platformto those resources.
Wonderful advice,wonderful advice.
Well, Geremy, as we're kind ofrunning out of time here.
(21:10):
You mentioned a number of,of resources.
And we will put all of thesein the show links.
But could you go back throughif somebody is looking for help,
if a man or woman couplelooking for help, where do they
where do they find thatthat Focus on the Family?
I've mentioned ita couple of times that we do
ministry phone consultationsand just listen to
folks. We we we we care.
(21:32):
We do a 1 or 2 time phoneconsultation,
one 800 a family calling one 800a family are classic,
easy to remember number.
You can request a counselingconsultation and a specialist
will call you back.
Within, within the day or two,we will have time
on the phone with you.
(21:52):
It's not a therapy session.
It's not ongoing counseling,but it is a, deep and
clinically informed ina, pastorally informed time to
really talk aboutwhat are the next steps
you can be takingfor your marriage.
What are some resourcesthat we can get you?
And a lot of the resources onthis topic are found at Focus
on the Family.com/pornography.
(22:14):
Many books, articles, materials,links to we've partnered
with Covenant Eyes.
We have a devotional, series,for folks that,
it's on your site,we link to it.
It comes from our book.
And I'd like to showthe cover of this, our book.
Aftershock.
(22:36):
This is for, wivesand their husbands,
but aftershock overcoming hissecret life with pornography.
A plan for recovery.
This is one particular bookI really want to emphasize.
If you're a marriedcouple listening, I helped,
another specialistcounselor write this because
we get so many calls ofwhat are the steps I can take,
(22:59):
how can I intervene,and what's the hope
for my marriage?
We answer all of that chapterby chapter in this book
and give astepping stone process
for confronting someone who is,maybe not repentant
yet of this issue,or dealing with when somebody
has disclosed or been caught.
(23:20):
This is the this is kindof our phone
consultation process in a book.
These are the stepswe continually over
and over walkmarried couples through
and our phone consultations.
And we saidwe need a book for this.
And soFocusOnTheFamily.com/aftershock,
slash aftershock.
You can order the bookand a call us.
(23:41):
We'll talk with you about it.
If you cannot affordto get this book.
We believe in the hopefor marriages so much
that we want you to call us.
And, we have generous donors.
We want you to knowthat we'll find a way
if you truly can't,afford the book at this time,
we'll get it in your hands.
And that is somethingwe love doing as part of our,
(24:04):
phone consultationswith people and
couples that call us.
All right.
Excellent. Thank you.
Geremy can hear your heartas a counselor, and, you you and
Focus on the Family.
It's just been such a wealth of,information and
care over the years.
So what a wonderful ministry.
I wish we had more timeto continue on,
(24:25):
because I know there'sa whole lot more depth there
for sure, but, but that's theend of our time today.
Geremy, thank you so muchfor joining us.
And thank you for your ministry.
There is help.
There's hope, there's friendshipwith us there is no need to call
with your head downand in shame.
And I know that you sharethat frequently
from Covenant Eyes.
(24:46):
On this podcast, we celebratethe fact that, we can
have the redemptionand the hope in Christ,
even if it's a journey.
Right?
There's a journey of recovery.
But, with friendship, with help,it's possible.
And there's hope for marriages.
And, we're we're glad to bea part of that story.
Amen. Amen.
Well, to our listeners,thank you for joining us today.
(25:08):
I'm sure you enjoyed this.
Check out those all thosewonderful resources.
Those will be again,they'll be shared in the
in the show notes.
But until next time,thanks for joining us.
Take care. God bless.
Well.
Good afternoon.
Welcome to The CovenantEyes Podcast.
I'm your hosttoday, Rob Stoddard.
My co-host Karen Potter isis off today.
And so it's just going to bebe me solo.
But, but I do have awonderful guest today,
and I think you'rereally going to enjoy
this conversation.
I'd like to introduceGeremy Keaton.
Geremy is the senior directorof counseling services
(00:27):
at Focus on the Family.
Geremy, welcome to TheCovenant Eyes Podcast.
Rob. Thank you.
It's a pleasureto speak with friends
at Covenant Eyes,and we love supporting
those that you'rein relationship with, as well.
So thanks for the invitefrom Focus. Well, great.
Well, Geremy, as we start out,would you just tell us,
tell our listenersjust a little bit about yourself
(00:47):
and and also your role there at,Focus on the Family
in your ministry.
Thanks, Rob.
I'm a marriageand family therapist.
I'm, clinicallytrained in helping couples.
That's my background.
I've workedat Focus on the Family
since the beginningof my counseling
career, 23 years.
And, I've been at this greatministry, and,
(01:09):
we love helping familiesthrive in Christ.
And that includeshelping marriages and parents.
And we do,phone consultations here
at the ministry, complementary,ministry consultations
from licensed and pastoral,specialists in mental health,
various disciplines.
(01:29):
And I lead that team.
I'm the directorof our counseling team.
We have right around 20 folkson our phone lines,
and we talk to about 1100people a month
in this departmentof the ministry.
And of course, the ministry has,a lot of, a lot of content,
a lot of web articles and manyaspects of family
helping materials.
(01:49):
And then people call usin response to that,
and we get to talkabout everything
from potty trainingto pornography addiction
and everything in betweenas we consult with people
here at Focus.
Now that's wonderful.
It's a wonderful ministryand so, so well-regarded,
for sure.
Well, let's just jump in,talk a little bit about this.
(02:12):
So at Focus on the Family,you're working closely
with individuals,mainly couples.
Some of those are strugglingwith pornography
and sexual addiction.
You know, what kinds of issuesdo you typically see that
impact marriages and familiesaround this issue
of pornography?
Well, we we get the privilege,the sacred privilege to
(02:35):
sometimes be the first phonecall that a husband or wife,
a mom or dad make when they'relooking for resources
and in some ways,dealing with the fallout
or the shock of a discoveryof pornography
use in their home, in disruptingtheir marriage.
And so we experience, first off,a lot of trust from individuals
(02:58):
because they'refeeling oftentimes
panic, fear or shame.
That comes from,what happens as a result
of habitual or addictivepornography use.
You know, I seeregularly our team
sees regularlyat a real basic bottom
line level as pornography issueshurt hearts.
(03:23):
This is not a this is notI mean, our instincts tell us
this is not family friendly,marriage friendly
material, despite what isbeing kind of sold
and trumpeted as,you know, this is free
and harmless.
There's so many things.
And you talk about itall the time on your podcast,
and I don't your listenersprobably don't need that
(03:45):
specific education about all thebrain damage, literally,
that's happening.
But it hurts hearts, spouses,you know, spouses
don't feel that they arethe single apple of the eye
of of their of their husbandor wife when the one of them
is habitually using pornography.
I see that it hurts faith.
(04:06):
For those that, you know,want to live in line
with their deeply held faith,their religious faith,
with their walk with God,there is an inconsistency
when you know that lust iscontrolling you.
So there's a distancingwith God, a chilling of
the relationship, or at least,hiding even like in the Garden
(04:27):
of Eden.
Right? Hiding from God.
That happens.
But when we allow thisto just set up
camp in our lives,it also for Christians
violates the the symbolof radical exclusivity.
Sexuality is builtfor the believer
on radical exclusivity.
(04:47):
And so it it hurts that partof even being a
consistent witness.
And I can continue toto talk about what what we hear
as we talk with spouses.
But a lot of fear and,safety in the marriage,
a lot of questions.
And it progresses andpeople lose jobs, people.
I mean, there's a spectrumof how far it progresses
(05:08):
for different people,but just a lot of
of fall out compromiseand teaching your children
about healthy sexualityand pornography, if you yourself
are kind of running fromand burying your head
in the issue.
So I could keep going, Rob.
But that's some of what we seeas we talk with families,
and we're honored to helpget the healing process started.
(05:29):
Yeah, absolutely.
And you're right,we could continue on going on
and on because it's so deepand and hurts and, damages us in
so many areas.
Geremy, one of the thingswe kind of constantly hear
from couples and familiesis just the, maybe one partner
coming into, maybe a marriagecounseling session
(05:56):
and not quite there yet.
Maybe, not seeing all the lows,damage, damage areas
that that it's doing.
What are some of the mythsand misunderstandings
about pornography that, that,you know, men or women
bring into your counselingsessions?
Yes.
Which one to start with?
(06:17):
I think one of thefirst ones is, even in
Christian marriages,even sometimes from the church,
certainly from the culture,there's the myth that
if we just, you know,did more sex,
had a sexier marriage,it would solve this issue
(06:37):
of one of the partnersseeking out porn.
And the fact of the matter is,and sometimes not exclusively,
but often women are toldeither explicitly or tacitly.
It's suggested if youif you will
only serve your spouseor service your spouse
(06:59):
with being more, you know, maybeeven mimicking some things
that are in the pornography.
Right. And the kind of,spicing up the
marriage, having a pornified marriage
rather than, you know,a glorified and,
and godly view of sexthat somehow that that's okay.
And what you really should do.
So that breaks, breaks my heartbecause they're that's real.
(07:23):
I would even say diabolicalmisinformation.
Another one is,just send off the
the husband will say and get himfixed and then, you know,
just kind of a non couplebased approach to counseling
when this in factis both individuals
(07:44):
deserve attention and helpas well as the couples.
So there's kindof three journeys in recovery
the husband, the wifeor the user and the offended.
However you want to divide that,you know, the husband
or wife can be, the personusing pornography habitually.
But then there'sthe third entity,
(08:05):
which is the marriage.
And all three partsneed attention
at different paces,different stages.
And so it's not justsend an addicted person off
and then just kind ofthey need to do their thing
and just come back betterwhen actually there's
an opportunity.
It's hard to get there,but there's an opportunity
for the marriage systemto be revamped and retooled
(08:29):
so that you are actually betterthan you ever were
before this crash.
Right.
And so the myth of just sendone person away to get fixed.
And then there's,there's the myth
that it's reallyall about the sex
or the porn itself,that that's the issue.
And that's, that's the symptomof relational and emotional
things that are drivingthis particular symptom.
(08:52):
Right.
And I, I, you know, individualsthat could
stop using pornography and stillhave many of the
emotional deficits and maybeuse another
quote, substance. Right.
We all know situationswhere an alcoholic might
stop drinking and alcoholbut just switch
to another addiction.
Or they call itthe quote, dry drunk
(09:14):
syndrome of this.
This is not really all aboutjust the acting out.
That's what we thinkis the most hurtful,
but there's something driving itin your own history.
There's coping mechanismsthat you're using it
for as and you are, needing toexpand your emotional vocabulary
(09:36):
and your ability to be safeand intimate with people.
And then the pornography canbe supplanted in your life.
Or here's oneis just get a filter to just
get an accountabilitypartner and try harder.
Pray harder and just arrestthe behavior.
Grab grab Ahold of your chairand just white knuckle it,
(09:59):
you know,and just try really hard
and and and you know,pray harder.
The spiritual only solution.
And it's much moreholistic than that.
So those are some of the mythsthat I see in recovery efforts,
as well as misinformationabout sex, that are out there.
(10:20):
Yeah.
So true, so true.
You mentioned accountabilityand certainly, in what
you portrayed there100% accurate.
We know one of the thingsin marriages that, breaks down
is that trust betweenthe husband and wife.
Can you talk a little bit more,a little deeper about
(10:41):
the importance of accountabilityin that recovery process?
And really, what does healthyaccountability look like?
You know, that's right.
That's right.
And so, in mentioningaccountability partners,
I in no way want to suggest thatit's not an essential part
of a, a really like a threelegged stool, a stool doesn't
(11:02):
stand on its own.
You need community as well as,you know, counseling
and internal insights.
And what's so importantabout accountability?
I like to even think of the termof transformative relationships,
not just anaccountability partner.
I have someone walking with meto help me transform my life.
(11:24):
And so, accountability isa good word.
It I do need to beaccountable to people,
but I thinkhealthy accountability
is not merely behaviorcheck in based.
It is emotional wellness,bonding, attachment.
A safe place to say, here'shonestly where I was tempted
(11:45):
to go today,or where I did go today,
and somebody who can say,I'm with you, I hear you,
and let's discover, let's followthe breadcrumbs
backwards to the sourceof what your heart
was really needing,rather than, okay,
let's just again, kind of getin a situation where your
accountability partner issort of just cracking
(12:08):
the whip on you so thatyou have consequences
and you have to tell somebodyhow bad you are.
That's not it.
You want to bein a transformative brotherhood
or sisterhood that says,I see you how you are.
I love you anyway,and I'm going to help
you fill your heart.
I'm going to be a partnerin filling your heart
(12:30):
with the living water of lifeand the skills that it takes,
and that's what a good coachor counselor will do.
Do as well.
But you need somebodyin your day to day life.
You're you're you're not.
That's not yourpaid coach or counselor
that can just pass alongside youwhile you're doing your coaching
or counseling.
And I like to call ita transformative relationship
(12:54):
journeying partner.
Right.
That's the that's what defineshealthy and productive
accountability.
Rather than just check inand tell me if you've been bad.
And you know what?
Let me just kind of,let me just tell you,
you need to man up andand let me tell you what you're
what you're doing wrong.
And some accountability.
Relationships fall intosomething akin to that.
(13:18):
Right.
And that's wheregetting good material
from ministries that helpyou shape your accountability
in a way that it's a trulya transformative relationship.
Rather than a behaviormanagement relationship.
Yeah, well well said.
Well said.
I think the best definitionI've heard of accountability
(13:39):
relationship like that is whenyour partner is walking you
to the feet of Christ,just continually
bringing you backto that relationship.
And you, you talked about thattransformative, piece
that's that's so important,so wonderful.
Geremy, I'msure you talk with many,
you know, with, parents and,families are struggling
(14:05):
with this.
We know, you know, thethe terrible impact
it's having on the youth.
Now, talk a little bitabout what parents
can do proactivelyto really help educate
and protect their childrenaround this issue
of pornography.
Yeah, if you have small childrenespecially, but really,
any time,begin, begin to talk in,
(14:30):
especially with young childrenkind of early and often
about the goodness of the body,the protection of the body,
sexual educationand having tools for that
little storybooks.
There's resources out there.
There's resourceswe have from Focus
on the Family.
There's downloadableguides about language
you can use with your kids.
Anything aroundsexual education is,
(14:53):
has good potential tobe pornography, prevention.
And you can integrate teachinghealthy sexuality
the beauty of male and female.
Why God created marriage is asymbol of his love.
And you're sprinkling thesethese healthy sexual messages
early and often.
(15:16):
Even little thingslike when I would, take care
of our childrenand bathe our toddlers
at bedtime and cuddling and,and even teach them
about body protectionright as we're bathing.
Right in the in the end,you know, only mom and dad,
maybe a doctor would,help clean or touch,
this part of your bodywhile we're
(15:36):
washing, but our body so goodthat we protect it.
You talk about that goodness,you talk about protection,
and then you talk aboutthe dignity of other people
and why we don't,look at people in ways
that make them an objectfor us to look at
or for us to lust overwhen you can.
Lust is taking for the benefitof myself, not,
(16:00):
whereas love is servingfor the benefit of the other.
And you talk aboutthe difference
between love and lust,you're just slowly sprinkling
in these messagesand Focus on the Family.
We have a downloadablefree guide of all the language.
You can use itevery age and stage
on healthy sex ed in that,downloadable PDF file is, at
(16:23):
FocusOnTheFamily.com/thetalk.
And of course we knowthe talk is not one talk.
It's many talk.
So we're teachingyou how to have the talks.
As you download this littleguy to 18 page little,
I keep it in my home.
We have itand we review it, like,
(16:45):
as each of our kids have aged,have we really covered
these concepts that really needto be installed in their hearts
and in their language?
At each agent stage.
And that'sFocusOnTheFamily.com/thetalk.
And then there's, there's toybooks out there.
There's, you know,the classic good
pictures, bad pictures,these things that you've
(17:06):
probably linked tooff of your page
in your podcast before.
But earlyand often conversations
start with health,not just the bad.
Right. All right.
That's wonderful,wonderful advice.
And yeah, so needed.
Geremy, let me, switch,topics here a little bit.
I work with the church hereat Covenant Eyes.
(17:28):
Day in and day outand so many churches
are really strugglingon how to help.
And not just individuals,but families deal
with this issue of pornography.
So what would you say?
What's the role of the churchin really fostering
healing, helping provide, helpfor those that are struggling
with pornography?
Any any advice for churches?
(17:49):
Well, interestinglyenough, getting upstream of this
the same waythat I just talked about
with parents and parenting,parents or shepherd or
shepherding their child's heartsthrough healthy sex threat,
healthy sex education.
I think if a church has positivesermons, worldview
(18:11):
sermons, and apologeticfor why marriage is between
a man and a woman, all of theif pastors receive support
and, having,whether it's classes
in your model of churchor sermons around God's
design for sexualityand then out of that,
you can begin to talk about theand teach about the deviations
(18:35):
or where we naturally driftoff the mark.
And yet we find Jesusright there with us.
Talk about how the sexual sinnerin the New Testament,
if you really look at Jesus'sinteractions with
with those that are,you know, brought before him
or interacting around sexuality,it's it seems as if he's
the most compassionatewith those dealing with this
(18:57):
very personalized type of,sin or identity issue.
And so sermons in discussionsso that it's not just an us them
mentality of,well, we in the church
somehow are pious and actuallywe are all in a journey
of sanctification,and we're all made
(19:18):
with the goodness of sexuality,and we need to steward it in
our church.
We want to be about havingnot only teaching kids
about healthy sexuality,but about,
the friendship of Jesuswith the struggler.
And so having testimoniesand stories
of overcoming, havinggroups that are, well led, well,
(19:42):
you know, well educated,there are ministries out there
that we link tofrom Focus on the Family
that specialize this.
They have curriculum that haveonline groups
that have, retreats and they'rethey're not just or pray harder,
try harder type approach.
They're ministriesthat really understand
the body, the mind and thespiritual approach, to recovery.
(20:04):
Bring those ministriesin, have fliers on tables,
have Covenant Eyes materials outin the lobby,
run a Covenant Eyes,ad on your screen,
scrolling before after servicesas a recommended
resource for families.
Do the same with Focuson the families
(20:25):
pornography resources page.
It Focus on theFamily.com/pornography.
It's a onestop shop of ministries
that we refer to.
Articles,sex education materials,
have the specialized resourcesavailable and partner
with specialist ministriesbecause you don't need to do it
all as the church.
You need to knowwho can help you
(20:47):
and come alongside in a waythat's compatible.
And I a little biased,but I really Focus on the Family
as well as Covenant Eyes.
Are a couple of thosemany things out there
these days, with ministryspecializing
in this kind of care.
Give platformto those resources.
Wonderful advice,wonderful advice.
Well, Geremy, as we're kind ofrunning out of time here.
(21:10):
You mentioned a number of,of resources.
And we will put all of thesein the show links.
But could you go back throughif somebody is looking for help,
if a man or woman couplelooking for help, where do they
where do they find thatthat Focus on the Family?
I've mentioned ita couple of times that we do
ministry phone consultationsand just listen to
folks. We we we we care.
(21:32):
We do a 1 or 2 time phoneconsultation,
one 800 a family calling one 800a family are classic,
easy to remember number.
You can request a counselingconsultation and a specialist
will call you back.
Within, within the day or two,we will have time
on the phone with you.
(21:52):
It's not a therapy session.
It's not ongoing counseling,but it is a, deep and
clinically informed ina, pastorally informed time to
really talk aboutwhat are the next steps
you can be takingfor your marriage.
What are some resourcesthat we can get you?
And a lot of the resources onthis topic are found at Focus
on the Family.com/pornography.
(22:14):
Many books, articles, materials,links to we've partnered
with Covenant Eyes.
We have a devotional, series,for folks that,
it's on your site,we link to it.
It comes from our book.
And I'd like to showthe cover of this, our book.
Aftershock.
(22:36):
This is for, wivesand their husbands,
but aftershock overcoming hissecret life with pornography.
A plan for recovery.
This is one particular bookI really want to emphasize.
If you're a marriedcouple listening, I helped,
another specialistcounselor write this because
we get so many calls ofwhat are the steps I can take,
(22:59):
how can I intervene,and what's the hope
for my marriage?
We answer all of that chapterby chapter in this book
and give astepping stone process
for confronting someone who is,maybe not repentant
yet of this issue,or dealing with when somebody
has disclosed or been caught.
(23:20):
This is the this is kindof our phone
consultation process in a book.
These are the stepswe continually over
and over walkmarried couples through
and our phone consultations.
And we saidwe need a book for this.
And soFocusOnTheFamily.com/aftershock,
slash aftershock.
You can order the bookand a call us.
(23:41):
We'll talk with you about it.
If you cannot affordto get this book.
We believe in the hopefor marriages so much
that we want you to call us.
And, we have generous donors.
We want you to knowthat we'll find a way
if you truly can't,afford the book at this time,
we'll get it in your hands.
And that is somethingwe love doing as part of our,
(24:04):
phone consultationswith people and
couples that call us.
All right.
Excellent. Thank you.
Geremy can hear your heartas a counselor, and, you you and
Focus on the Family.
It's just been such a wealth of,information and
care over the years.
So what a wonderful ministry.
I wish we had more timeto continue on,
(24:25):
because I know there'sa whole lot more depth there
for sure, but, but that's theend of our time today.
Geremy, thank you so muchfor joining us.
And thank you for your ministry.
There is help.
There's hope, there's friendshipwith us there is no need to call
with your head downand in shame.
And I know that you sharethat frequently
from Covenant Eyes.
(24:46):
On this podcast, we celebratethe fact that, we can
have the redemptionand the hope in Christ,
even if it's a journey.
Right?
There's a journey of recovery.
But, with friendship, with help,it's possible.
And there's hope for marriages.
And, we're we're glad to bea part of that story.
Amen. Amen.
Well, to our listeners,thank you for joining us today.
(25:08):
I'm sure you enjoyed this.
Check out those all thosewonderful resources.
Those will be again,they'll be shared in the
in the show notes.
But until next time,thanks for joining us.
Take care. God bless.
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