Welcome to the Covenant Eyes Podcast! In this powerful episode, Pastor Garrett Kell from Del Ray Baptist Church shares his deeply personal journey from rebellion to redemption—and how God's grace transformed his life. Pastor Kell offers heartfelt wisdom on breaking free from pornography, the role of accountability, and how the church can walk alongside those who are struggling with sexual sin.
📖 He also discusses themes from his books:
• Pure in Heart: Sexual Sin and the Promises of God
• How Do I Fight Sin and Temptation?
This episode is a must-watch for anyone wrestling with sin, supporting a spouse or loved one in addiction, or looking for real answers from a gospel-centered perspective.
🔔 Subscribe for more biblically grounded discussions on purity, discipleship, and online accountability.
💬 Topics Covered:
➡️ Garrett’s testimony & calling to ministry
➡️ Root causes of sexual sin and how the church can respond
➡️ The spiritual and practical dangers of internet isolation
➡️ How accountability partners (and tools like Covenant Eyes) foster freedom
➡️ Why Gen Z may lead a revival of biblical sexuality
➡️ Practical church leadership tips for discipling in a pornified culture
🕒 Chapters:
00:00 - Intro & Welcome
00:55 - Pastor Garrett’s Testimony
02:44 - Writing "Pure in Heart" for the Church
04:15 - Hope for Those Struggling with Porn
05:44 - How to Respond to Pain, Sin & Suffering
07:22 - Shame, Isolation & the Enemy’s Tactics
10:09 - The Internet’s Spiritual Dullness
12:27 - Accountability: From Isolation to Transformation
14:32 - Gen Z’s Return to the Church
17:25 - Discipleship Across Generations
20:01 - Biblical Sexuality & Church Readiness
25:00 - Addressing Porn in the Church Boldly
29:07 - Training Church Leaders to Respond
31:27 - Creating Clear Paths for Confession
32:40 - Closing Prayer & Encouragement
🔗 Helpful Resources:
Learn more about Covenant Eyes Accountability
https://cvnteyes.co/4gb6xme
Read Pure in Heart by Garrett Kell:
https://www.amazon.com/Pure-Heart-Sexual-Sin-Promises/dp/1433574896
Get the booklet How Do I Fight Sin and Temptation?
https://www.amazon.com/How-Do-Fight-Sin-Temptation-ebook/dp/B0C4G1G2Q1
#quitporn #addictionrecovery #covenanteyes #garrettkell
Try Covenant Eyes for FREE today!
Use Promo Code: FreePodcast
© 2024 Covenant Eyes, All Rights Reserved
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Welcome back to TheCovenant Eyes Podcast.
It's so good to have youjoining us today.
Today we have a veryspecial guest joining us.
We have Pastor Garrett Kell.
He is the lead pastorat Del Ray Baptist
Church in Virginia,and he served there since 2012.
I believe he is also the authorof an amazing book
called Pure in Heart Sexual Sinand the Promises of God.
(00:29):
And how Do I FightSin and Temptation?
We are just so gratefulto have Pastor Kell
joining us today.
Welcome back.
Yeah, Karen, it's, great to tobe back with you guys
and thank youfor your ministry and, Yeah.
Hope you're doing well.
Yeah. Thanks.
Well, for those listenersthat are not familiar with you,
I know you've been onthe podcast before,
but would you mind sharingjust a little bit of
(00:51):
your story as,a pastor and the journey
that you've been on?
Sure.
Yeah.
I mean, I, I justconsider myself a debtor
to grace, became aChristian middle of my junior
year of collegethrough the witness of a friend.
Came out of a very, Yeah,ungodly, background.
And the Lord, in his mercy,sought me and saved
(01:12):
me and has kept me.
And I think it basically,as soon as I became a Christian,
I realizedthat I have been using
all of my influenceto help people go to hell.
And I said, yeah,the Holy Spirit helped me to
to see the responsibilitythat I had to try and
help people to followJesus and go to heaven
and to know him.
So ever since thatI've been trying to do
that imperfectly. And,yeah, for most of that
(01:34):
time it's been in a, you know,formal ministry setting.
But I tell our kids I'd be doingthe same thing even if I wasn't
a pastor in regardsto helping people follow Jesus.
And, but that'sthat's what I do.
So I have one wife.
Her name is Carrie.
We have seven kids, and,Yeah, that's what I said. And,
and, been a pastor foralmost 25 years,
(01:55):
and I've been here at Del RayBaptist Church since since 2012.
Awesome.
Wow. Yeah.
You're you're a busy man.
That's, That's a lot.
Oh my goodness.
Well, we're grateful,and I think one of the
the beautiful thingsis that for those of us
who kind of had the beforeChrist experience,
you know, it really compels usto want to help and,
(02:16):
and really get the messageof the gospel to people
because we know what it's liketo be lost
and to be in darkness.
So I'm just so gratefulfor your passion
and for the workthat you're doing.
So talk to usa little bit about, you know,
you certainly have writtensome really incredible books
that are designed to help peoplewho are struggling
(02:36):
with sin specifically.
You know, you've talkedabout in the past,
you know, pornographybeing one of those sins
that people wrestle with.
So talk to us a little bitabout the books
that you've written and the waythat you counsel
Christians who areconfronted with this sin.
Sure.
So, the, the primary workthat put together,
(02:59):
something called pure in heart,sexual sin
in the Promises of God.
It's basically a meditation
on Matthew 5 (03:03):
8.
And I, wrote it for our church.
I think there'sa lot of good resources
out there,but I didn't feel like
I had a resourcethat I could give to brothers
or sisters, peoplewho are struggling with same sex
attraction or.
Or not, peoplewho are older, young people
who have experiences or not,whatever it may be.
I wrote it for our church.
So it's it's intendedto be Christ glorifying.
(03:26):
And the whole thingis Matthew five eight.
Jesus says, blessed are the purein heart, for
they shall see God.
And I thinkone of the challenges
that we often findin conversations
about sexual purityis that purity becomes an
end in itself.
You know, did I just geta clean Covenant Eyes report?
Did I not given to this sinnerthat sin?
And that kind ofbecomes the goal
which the Scripture saysvery shortsighted.
(03:48):
Blessed are the purein heart for they shall see God.
So purity is a means to the endof seeing and knowing
and enjoying God.
And that should alwaysbe our goal.
So yeah, that'swhat put that book together.
It's intended to, yeah,help our church.
And in God's kindness,it seems to have been useful
for for people outside of that.
And then the little nonMark's booklet called,
(04:09):
Fighting Sin and Temptation.
How do I fight sinand temptation?
It's like a 60 page,I want to say 60.
They're like half pages.
So it's super short,little resorts.
It's intended to be justan introduction for somebody
to start a conversationabout what is sin,
what is temptation,and how do I,
by the grace of Godand the power of the Holy Spirit
in his promises, fight it?
(04:29):
And how do I help othersto do the same?
So yeah, I want themto be accessible resources
that are intendedto help people to
to follow Jesus until we see himface to face.
That's awesome.
Well, you know, alot of our listeners, either
struggle activelywith trying to overcome
the sin in pornography,or we even have a lot of spouses
and leaders that listento our podcast who,
(04:51):
either are supportingsomeone going through this
or maybe are, you know,feeling the pain
of being marriedto someone that's struggling
with pornographyand how that damages
the relationship and painand suffering
is certainly somethingthat we're not immune
to as Christians.
So what advicedo you have for people
that are going throughchallenging seasons that just
they feel too much, theyjust feel unbearable?
(05:14):
Yeah.
I think we want to rememberingthat suffering always pushes us.
It's it's either goingto push you away from God
in hardening your heartagainst him as to why would you
let this happen, or whateverit may be, or
it's going to push youtoward him in humility
and hopefulness?
And so I think you want toremember that when suffering
(05:36):
is coming, whether it bebecause of your own sin
or the sin of somebody elsethat is affecting you,
that it's it hasit has a purpose.
Satan wants to use itto push you away.
He wantshe wants faith to fizzle
and wants your heartto grow hard
and to not trust God.
Right?
But but the Lordwould intend to use it for good
(05:58):
and intendto draw you to himself.
And that's our prayer,is that we would, Yeah, that
we would see it in that way.
So, I think you want tojust keep your eyes on him.
Secondly,I would say you want to,
surround yourselfwith people to help you.
You need people who are going toweep with you.
(06:20):
You need people who are goingto tell you the truth.
You need peoplewho are going to pray with you
and pray for you.
We're not all strongat the same time.
And I think realizing that ispart of the beauty
of the body of Christ, that he'sgiven us one another
to lock arms with each other,to help one another to
to to look to Jesusand to lean into him.
(06:41):
So, yeah, I would sayin the midst of it,
remember that Godis still the goal.
He wants us and that he'snot being cruel.
He only ever does goodand that we can trust him.
That's beautiful and well said.
I think you brought upa really good point, too,
about being surroundedby other Christians
in the body of Christ,because oftentimes we when
(07:04):
we're struggling, our naturalkind of reaction is sometimes
to be isolated, to pull back tofor sure, to hide, you know,
and so for those Christiansout there
listening who, you know,maybe are withdrawing
instead of runningto those people, what can
what kind of advicedo you have for them?
Because it can feelkind of uncomfortable at times
(07:25):
when we're strugglingto reach out for help,
but we desperatelyneed it in those times.
Yeah, sure.
I think I think you're right on.
You know, shame is sucha powerful tool of the enemy.
I mean, he he blackmails usall the time
with all of the reasonsthat, you know, we're not worthy
to be loved by God.
All the reasons that if wewe are honest with others
(07:48):
that they won't love us.
All of the reasons that,you know, we should be rejected
and, you know,I think we have to
we have to rememberto listen to truth.
And what God saysis that we we aren't.
Everybody's a debtor to grace.
Everybody needs him.
And I think this is whatthe beauty of the body of Christ
(08:09):
is, that God has given usfellow sinners
like we tell our churchall the time, nobody, nobody,
if you're looking forthe right church,
came to the wrong placebecause there's nobody here
who has it all together, right?
Nobody strutsinto the kingdom of God.
We all come in with one boastand that that's that
we need Jesus.
So I think remember thatGod designed you to be able to,
(08:30):
to only make itwith the help of others.
And Satan wants to isolate you.
So I would just sayyour value is not in
what other people think of you.
Your value iswhat God thinks of you
because there's no condemnationfor those who are in Christ.
He's clothed youwith the righteousness
of Christ.
And and in that we canfind confidence.
(08:50):
And, you know, I thinkI think you don't want
just do not believe.
I can't tell you how many timesI've seen people
who are just riddledwith guilt and shame
that when they finally confessand they're honest
and they begintrying to fight this by the
the power of the Holy Spiritin honesty and in like,
they findthat they are loved and and in
(09:12):
the strangest way, respect levelgoes up for somebody
who's really tryingand leaning in.
And God uses that toto deepen relationships.
And I just want you to knowthat, that the Lord,
if you're struggling,that the Lord has people for you
to walk with you.
So make sure you're in a good,healthy church where the the
you know, the gospel isnot just talked about
(09:32):
but lived outand and the Lord will help you.
He promises to.
That's beautiful.
Yeah.
And that is so true.
One of the things at CovenantEyes, is we're really focused
on helping peoplelive with integrity and,
you know,walk with that integrity
when they're online.
So we often like totalk a little bit about that
(09:53):
issue of the importanceof having relationships
and accountability partnerswith our activity,
because the internetis the wild West, and it
certainly is a placewhere we, you know,
especially if we're strugglingwith temptation,
can get ourselvesinto a lot of trouble.
Can you talk a little bitabout the importance
of having accountable,whether it's using Covenant
(10:15):
Eyes or just,you know, being a part
of a men's or women's groupwhere you just talk about
the things that are going on,especially with your
activities online,because I think a lot of
people get in trouble online.
Well, yeah.
I mean, I think, you know,the internet, you know,
has has a lot of good things.
It also has a lot ofa lot of dangers.
And I think we should I think weshould be really careful
(10:36):
about how we engage with,you know, the internet, that
just because it's theredoesn't mean
that we need to be on itall the time. You know?
I mean, we live in a culture,that really woos us
away from quiet, from,you know, just
thinking and praying.
And I think we need tothink about it this way.
And I will answer your questionif I don't just come back to me.
(10:57):
But I just think the reality of,you know, being online,
like the world is designedto dull your spiritual sobriety,
like that's what it'sintended to do.
I mean, when was the last timeyou watched a show?
And then it went toa commercial break
and it said, don'tforget everything
that you think, doand say will one day
be brought before a holy God,and you'll give an account
for everything.
Have a nice day like that.
(11:17):
Doesn't happen.
No.
Should it would, should that be.
That'd be helpful.
But that's.
Yeah.
Well and I think this is whereChristians need to help one
another to realizethat being tethered
to the internet all the timewith whether it be games
or alerts or social media oranything like that,
it's not healthy.
It's not it's not normal.
(11:38):
It's not healthy,and it's not necessary.
It feels necessarybecause the whole thing
is designed that you're goingto miss out on this news
or this update on this friend,or this new trending thing,
and it's createsthis urgency toward
fleeting things.
And I think we just have to bereally careful
because especiallywhen we're stressed
or we're tired or we're hurtingor disappointed
(11:59):
or we're struggling,there's easily accessible
escapes of the worldthat we run to for refreshment.
And if we retreat to the world,we will learn to love the world,
because we were we were createdto love what we retreat to.
That's what Godthroughout the Psalm
says, I'm your refuge.
Just what Jesus said,come to me,
(12:20):
all you who are wearyand heavy laden,
and I will give you restlike we are designed to love
what refreshes us.
So if we like, oh, I'mI'm tired.
So I'm going to watch a showor I'm tired.
I'm, you know, my brain.
I'm just going to go and scrollor play this game
or check out my Instaor whatever your thing is like.
You've just got to know that'sthat pattern is not safe,
(12:43):
especially if it's not donewith with mature discipline of
stepping away.
This is why, like fasting.
Not just from,I mean from from food,
but also from social mediabeing online, all these sorts
of things is ait's neces sary like,
if you're not,you're in trouble.
Right.
(13:04):
I need people to tell methat stuff.
I need people to remind me.
Because if I'm just goingby myself, I'm just going
to kind of go with the flow.
But if you if you wantto go to hell and I mean this,
I don't mean to flippantly,but if you want to go to
hell, all you have to dois what is natural.
And this is why we need oneanother to remember.
Oh no, no no,there there is. Christ.
There is eternity.
Every moment matters.
(13:25):
So the reason accountability isso important
is because it providespeople around us to be able
to speak into our lives, to say,hey, listen,
I just want to tell you,praise the Lord for the growth
I've seen in you.
It's really encouraging.
We need that, right?
Because we don't always see it.
Then we also need people to say,hey, listen, I love you,
but I feel like I'ma little nervous.
(13:46):
I just know thatyou're just always
on your phone.
What was the last timeyou took a break?
Or, hey, you know, I got yourcovenant report and it said
that there was somesome disruption in the,
you know, in the serviceor it says that, hey,
these pictures came up.
Let's let's just talk about it.
What's what's going on?
How can I pray for you?
You know, and we justwe need that
because isolation againis is Satan's strategy,
(14:11):
to to make us vulnerable.
You don't have to watch,like, the Discovery
Channel very long.
And you just watch somethingthat's away from the herd.
That critter is goingto get eaten up by something.
And Satan does the same thingwith us, except he moves us away
with, you know, we'restaring at our phone,
and if we hear by ourself or,or shame or whatever else
it may be.
So, I'm not sure if that answerswhat you're looking for,
but I think it's important thingto talk about.
(14:32):
Absolutely.
No, it's very good.
I think, the interesting thing,too, is that, you know, the more
that we use technologyand we're on social media,
it really tears us apart.
Or away. I'm sorry.
From the peoplein our lives, you know,
I don't knowhow many times I've gone to, you
know, restaurants or justgoing to the grocery store,
and everybody'sgot their phone just,
(14:53):
you know, in their face,and they're not talking
with one another.
And that's, I think, sounhealthy and,
you know, dangerousas Christians because we need
that relationship.
We need to be connectedto the people around us.
I've seen someinteresting trends,
and maybe you've seensome of this too,
but some of the young, Gen Zers,actually are kind of moving
(15:13):
in a way where they are wantingto get back into church.
I saw a couple ofrecent articles that was talking
about the, Gen Zreturning to church and wanting
that communityand to be connected
and seeking that truth.
And that is that is amazing.
Like, praise God for that.
Are you seeing that kind ofmovement to you
that they're justkind of fed up?
They're like,something's not right
(15:35):
living online and doing thiswhole thing like,
something's wrong here.
Well, and I don'tI'll share this not, and,
I'm not trying to drawany attention to myself in this,
but I recently got to speakat a conference
called Cross Con, which is,a call for people to, you know,
use their live for the missionand the glory of God
among the nations.
And we did a breakout sessionon, on sexual purity
(15:58):
and, and the first nightthat they were there.
So there's 15,000 people at the,at the thing the first night
they had to turn thousands ofpeople away.
So they asked usto do it the next night,
and they still turned awaylike tons of people just because
the rooms were so full.
And that has nothingto do with me.
I think.
What, because most people doknow who I was,
(16:19):
which makes sense.
But like what it had to do withis you've got a generation
that's been lied tofor a long time.
Yeah, they've beengrown up on this,
this lie that, hey, you know,pornography is is life giving.
It's freedom.
And you just indulgein the things that you see.
Because we got to understandit's like pornography
is satanic discipleship.
(16:40):
And when youwhen you're following that path,
it it does nothingbut suck the life
out of your soul.
So I think you're right.
I think there's awhole generation who,
like this is not working.
I'm seeing the way it'sdestroying my parents.
I'm seeing the way it'sdestroying older siblings.
I'm seeing the way that, like,I've tried it and it's so empty.
There's not life there.
Give me something that matters.
(17:00):
Give me something that's real.
Give me something that's true.
And this is why I thinkyou know, we do see a lot of
a lot of young peoplecoming to church
looking for community.
We see people like moving awayfrom smartphones
and all kinds of stuff.
And I think thereis where, again,
some of the folksa little further down
the road can learnfrom some of the the younger
generation, again, that,you know, we
we it's okay to do that,to buck the buck the norm
(17:23):
and to sayno, we're going to walk
in a different way.
I mean, mightthis be the generation
where people are going to lobbyand make pornography illegal?
Might just be the generationthat says, we're done with this
and puts it to death.
I mean, that can happen.
We don't just haveto assume it's
going to keep goingthe way that it is.
So I'm thankful for what I'mseeing among young people,
and I pray that God will.
Yeah.
Give them give them courage andand strength and protection
(17:45):
from the evil oneas they lean in and
and try and livea different way.
You know, and it kind of createsa really big opportunity for,
people that are olderto disciple and walk alongside
these young peopleas they come in because they're
coming in rough and rugged.
They've been lied to,like cultures
really beat them up,you know, they don't
they don't know,much about the Bible
(18:07):
sometimes when theycome in those doors.
So what kind of opportunity doesthat, put before Christians
who have been walking the walkfor a while to disciple
and to walk alongsideyoung people?
Well, and that's, that's athat's the thing. Right?
You see, they're comingback to church.
And in the churchyou have a diversity
of generations and culturesand all the sorts of stuff.
(18:27):
And we need one another.
I know when I firstbecame a Christian,
I mean, at 21,I was sharing the gospel
with anything thatbreathed and moved
like I was on fire.
I had a lot of zeal,but I did not have much wisdom,
and I needed older Christiansto come alongside me and say,
listen, praise the Lordfor what's happening in you.
Let's think aboutthis direction.
(18:47):
Let's think about how do we readthe scriptures to make sure
that what we're sayingis not just exciting
spiritual talk,but it's actually
rooted in Scripturebecause we're going to
we want to helpother people know
truth about God,not just be riled up
about ideas. Right.
So I think there's a reallyunique opportunity,
and this is where I see it.
I don't, there's lotsof different circles of churches
in art and the kind of the,the group of churches
(19:11):
that I most oftenfellowship with, there's
there's a movement awayfrom a lot of the age,
age segregated stuff to wherelet's put gray hairs
with the young, the young bucks,and let's, let's learn
from one anotherand let's inspire one another.
Right.
Let's let's let the, the oldersisters instruct some of the
younger sistersand let's, let's help
and let the youngersisters, like, inspire
(19:33):
some older sistersto be like, yo, we got to talk.
We got to talk to our neighborsor about Jesus. Right?
Like, yeah, I thinkthe Satan wants
that to not happen, but the Lorddelights in it.
So I think there's aremarkable opportunity
for discipling acrossgenerational lines.
Right now, where wisdom and zealcan can become partners
and friendsin a way that I think,
(19:54):
I think the Lord could use in ingreat ways
to fuel everyone's faithand to make some,
some real headwayfor the gospel.
I love thatthat's really exciting.
And I think that also bringsup, you know, the
the big dilemma that churchesface, really,
because a lot of theseyoung people
coming to the churcheshave a lot of questions
about biblical sexualitybecause they're coming in
(20:17):
with their mind filled with liesand corruption that's been
fed to them for years.
And a lot of our churchesare not in a place
where they're readyto fill the void and help them
learn the truth.
So what kind of encouragementdo you have for pastors
and leaders out thereto really protect or, prepare,
and to be ready toanswer those questions
(20:39):
and to be welcomingto those questions.
Good question.
I, I think we just wantto encourage or remind pastors
of which I'm one.
So I need this is justas much for me.
It is for any other pastorwho's listening.
But we need the rightbalance of clarity,
courage and compassion.
And that's what peoplepeople need that
(21:01):
that's that's the I think that'sthe Christlike way.
We need clarity.
This is what the Bible says.
Like it's justjust teach the Bible.
Don't.
There's no creativityawards in heaven.
Like just teach clearlywhat God's Word says.
Do it courageously.
There are passagesthat you might
be tempted to jump over.
Do not, because whatyou're doing,
even if it's not relateddirectly to sexuality,
(21:22):
you're showing.
You're showing the congregationhow to be humble before
all of God's Word.
When you go through itthat we're just we're going
to receive what God says,we're going to submit to it,
we're going to wrestle with it.
We're going to say the thingswe don't know,
but we're going tosee good things belong to Lord,
but the things we know,let's grab them
and let's go. Right.
And then we do itwith compassion.
We don't do it as likeself-righteous guys who have it
(21:43):
all together, but rather we're,hey, we're
we're debtors to like,we need this grace.
This sermon isjust as much for me as this for
anybody else.
And I think that'ssort of clear,
courageous compassion in it.
Proclamation of gospeltruth is it's it's
compelling to people.
It's what we'recreated for. Right?
(22:03):
So I think, pastors,we need to be ready.
I mean, our statement of faith,we revised it
about 3 or 4 years agoto include statements
on, what marriage is on.
You know what, what gender isand how it relates
to biological sex.
I mean, you know, 20 years agowe've been like,
(22:23):
why are you putting thatin your statement of faith?
I think right nowwe want to do that from the get
go to initiate conversationsout of the gate of,
hey, this is who we are,and we want to show you
that, like, you can live boldly.
The world is notgoing to love it,
and you're going to get calledevery name in the book.
But but biblical sexuality,it is the issue,
the primary issue,practically speaking,
(22:44):
in one sense, that the churchhas to lead out on in a culture
that is going to call iteverything else,
because people will killone another to have sex
with whatever they want.
And and that'sjust not life giving.
But like, that's that'sthe reality that we're in.
And I think this is where,you know, we can't look
to legislatureto fix that because
(23:05):
because presidentswill come and go.
And whether there's presidentsare pushing one
agenda or another,the kingdom of God
is not built upthrough presidents.
And I you know,I think we just need to,
I live outside Washington, DC,so this is just something
we have to keep in.
Keep in mind.
But it's it's so importantthat the kingdom of God is built
through the Word of God.
And so we need to, regardless ofwhat the tide is that's blowing,
(23:28):
not do anythingexcept preach the gospel
and pour into the local churchand build it.
Because that's what thethe gates of hell
won't prevail against.
So pastors, have courage.
Don't be jerks for Jesus.
Like that's not the answer.
And I think you want to createan environment
where no matter what somebody'sstruggling with,
like they feel welcomed.
(23:49):
So in one sense,the church should be
the safest place to be a sinner.
What I don't mean bythat is that we're compromising
and affirming everybody's sin,but rather it means that,
hey, listen, if you're a sinner,there's only one house to go to.
It's the house where Jesus is.
So let's go and let's meet him.
And so we want to try and paintthat picture
(24:11):
as often as possiblethere regardless,
because everybody'ssexually broken.
It looks differentfor everybody, but everybody's
sexually brokenbecause of the fall.
It just affects everybody.
So in light of that,nobody should have this
look down on.
And also nobody should feellike they're so far gone
or what they strugglewith is so strange to God
that he can't give helplike the Lord.
(24:32):
His spirit can give help.
No matter where you areor what you've done or what
you struggle with.
He loves you and will help you.
And I think a community thatthat wraps arms around
you know, folks,whether they struggle
with the same thing or somethingthat looks a little different,
Jesus is always the answer.
And our sins,not the biggest problem,
however, it's displaying itself.
(24:53):
Our our sin generally is.
And Jesus the Savioris always our hope.
Absolutely.
Oh my goodness, that's so good.
Well, I'm going to kindof circle back to just
kind of the topic of pornographybecause, last year,
I don't know if you sawand I'm sure you did the
the new Barna stats that kind ofindicated an uptick
in pornographyuse among Christians.
(25:15):
And now women are struggling,at 44% of Christian women
also are strugglingwith pornography.
So, you know, pornographyis definitely something
that the church needs to boldly,address.
And also,you know, equip and help
people, address that.
Do you haveany recommendations on
(25:35):
how a church could startserving the members in this way?
Yeah, I think, number one,you want to pray.
You want to pray that God wouldbring conviction to to people,
who are struggling.
His spirit can do thatand will do that.
So I think there'swe want to be slow
(25:57):
to think, well, the first answeris a program or do this or that.
We can get to that in a second,but we really need
to be a people who pray,because this sort of revival
that we needis only going to come about
by the Spirit of Godmoving upon the people of God
by the grace of God.
So we just need to praythat God would move
and give us eyes to see thingsfor what it is.
This is one of the thingsdeciding that I like
(26:19):
about Covenant Eyesand what it does like it?
It puts whatyou've looked at online
before the eyes ofan image bearer,
and when it's like,hey, I saw this, what is that?
And the shame, like thethe fear, the whole,
the whole thing that happens,it's actually really,
really helpful because if,if before an image bearer,
how much more beforeGod himself.
(26:40):
And I think it, it helps us toto have some sobriety
that's there right.
So we need to prayfor spiritual sobriety
because Satan is making usdrunk on the world
and may he help us.
Second thing,I think the preaching has to be
done in such a waythat it's it's clear and it's,
it's it's aimedat the sorts of things
(27:01):
that people are struggling with.
So I would just say,if your sermon every Sunday
is about pornography,that's weird.
But if you preach, if you preachfor six months, if you preach
for three months,and it's not like one
of the applications,that's weird too.
I mean, it should be partof the conversation, you know,
that, you know, theyand you can do it in a way
(27:21):
that if you have mixed,you know,
with generational stufflike the hate
when you get online,there's good pictures
and there's bad pictures,and we need to be very
aware of that.
And, you know, some of usare struggling in this area and,
and I think as we're giventhe applications,
this is somethingthat's for brothers and sisters.
So if your brotheror sister and this is a
this is a temptationfor you or something
(27:42):
you're ensnared in right now,we just want you to know
the grace of Godis ready to help you.
So if you if you arefeeling convicted or if you know
you should be and you're not,plead with God to help
you reach out to our elders.
Or, if you're a sister,you can reach out to this.
You know,we have an email address
for sisters.
Reach out to and begincounseling conversations.
And like weyou want to have avenues
(28:03):
for people to be able to respondin a way that's, you know, hey,
I need to come inand talk about this.
So I think you want to normalizethe reality that people in
the congregation are struggling.
And then outside of that,I think you want to be equipping
your leaders to make normaldiscipling
conversations include.
(28:23):
So, let's talk about how you'redoing with your time.
How are you doing with money?
How are you doing with whatyou're looking at online?
What was the last time that youyou saw something,
that, you know,you shouldn't have?
And what was yourresponse to it?
And how can I help you?
And so those should be Norm,all sorts of conversations
that Christians are havingbecause time is fleeting.
(28:45):
Jesus talks about hell,you know, money
more than anything else and how,you know, like your credit
card statement is a theologicalstatement.
And if you. Are true.
If you don't openthat up and show other
Christians like, hey,this is how I spend my money.
Yeah.
Like, if we're embarrassedto do that because of
what's there, like,that's just as dangerous
as pornography is, right?
I mean, so we want tothink about that and then
(29:06):
we need to be able to do thatwith our search histories.
Like, look, that thing isthere ain't deleted a thing.
Like, let's talk about it.
And so I just thinkthat has to be part of the
normal conversations,like cultural Christianity,
where we just like showup, get our,
you know, get our starand leave like, that doesn't
help anybody.
We need real like,intentionally intrusive,
(29:27):
grace filled conversations abouthow are you doing,
where we can encourageand challenge each other
until we see his face.
That's awesome.
And I love that you broughtup your staff and having staff
ready to help and to be there.
So is that somethingthat you guys train like your,
your leadership teamsand your elders and women's
(29:49):
group leadersand things like that?
Do you train them in preparationfor tough conversations
about all sorts of topics?
Because some churches doand some don't.
And then, you know,if there's an issue,
they don't know how to help.
So I just was curiouswhat you guys do specifically.
Yeah.
I mean, we're we're trying towe do it imperfectly.
You know, our elders regularlyhave conversations
about one another.
(30:10):
So we model for one anotherhow to ask those intentionally
intrusive questions.
And then we are teaching thatsame sorts of things
that the peoplethat we're meeting with.
So all of our elders, meetwith all of the, you know, the,
leaders of the communitygroups, fellowship
groups, small groups,whatever you want to call them.
And they're modelingthose same sorts
of things for them.
Same thing with sisters.
(30:30):
So we have a couple sisterswho are on staff
who are really giftedwith counseling conversations.
And that's kind of partof the normal sort of
one of the things thatis brought up, you know,
how are we doing in this area?
And yeah, so we areI think one of the things
is happeningin our church right now
is we've we're growingin a way that is requiring more,
(30:52):
systems for this.
So you can pray for usto have wisdom in that,
because I think beforeit was easier for it to just be
the normal culture.
And everybody kind of did that.
We were at that sizeof a church where, now I think
we're having to think ona kind of a larger scale
a little bit.
I mean, it's not huge,but it's still it's
more than we know how tohandle right now.
So Lord, help us getget some wisdom
in how to do that.
(31:12):
But we do.
We are intentional with brothersand sisters in trying to invest
and make surethat these are parts of the
normal conversation.
Yeah.
That's great, I love that,and I think a lot of churches
are moving in that directionto be prepared and to have stuff
prepared for that. Yeah.
And one thing I would just sayand not to interrupt
is if right now somebody was inyour congregation
and they wanted to confess,would they know how to do that
(31:36):
between them and God?
Would they know whothey could go to
in the congregation,even if they were kind of new?
And is it clearhow do you reach out
to an elder pastor?
Is there a sisterthat's either on staff
or just a mature sister,that you've been able
to, to point to?
Is is it would people knowhow to do that?
And if not, just think, okay,then how can we
(31:58):
create some some avenueso we don't need to have
some big elaborate thingbecause somebody can hear
that and be like, oh, I can dothis whole thing. No.
Just some pathwayto be able to sit down
with a Christian and talklike that's all we're
thinking about.
So it doesn'thave to be overwhelming.
Just.
But I do think it's necessaryto provide
some of those pathwaysfor sheep to walk on
so they know how to, to get tosome of those green pastures.
(32:19):
That's excellent wisdom.
Well, thank you so much.
Well, our time today is actuallycoming to a close,
but I would loveto close out today with,
some prayer for thosewho are listening,
who may be facingsome challenges, whether it's,
you know, pornographyuse or maybe their spouse
and they're just prayingfor that break
through for their,their partner.
(32:40):
So could you offeras just a closing prayer
for today's episodefor the listeners? Sure.
Awesome.
Father in heaven.
You know, what each ofus are facing.
So, Lord, I pray for any mightbe the listener right now
who are ensnaredin, in pornography or some sort
of sexual sin.
(33:00):
And they just we're lookingfor something to try
and give some helpand some hope.
And they've listened this far.
Lord, would you remind themthat even even them hearing
this prayer is youmercifully extending
grace to them,that they might know
that you see them and love them,and have help and hope for them?
And Lord, would you help themto step into the light
no matter what it costs?
And would you show themthat it's worth it because you
(33:21):
give yourself?
Father, I pray for spouseswho might be listening
in, who are looking forand pleading with you
for some wayto help their spouse
who is ensnared.
Oh Lord, would you givewould you give help?
Would you give wisdomto that suffering spouse
about how to talkto their spouse?
How to talk to their pastors,about the stuff that's going on?
(33:42):
Lori, pray for for help.
Lord, pray for for pastorswho might be listening.
Oh Lord, would you help usto be clear and courageous
and compassionate?
And would you help usto not be above the congregation
in some kind ofcondescending way?
But we would be humble servantswho know that we need grace.
And Lord, mightyou might you help us.
And Lord, pray for the churchat large.
We pray for the youngand the old, to alike,
(34:05):
love one another.
Together we pray thatthere would be inspiration
of both zeal and wisdom.
And we pray that you would.
Yeah, yeah,he would change our land
through the church.
We do pray for, YouTube.
Yeah.
In this plague of pornography,we pray it become illegal.
And, Lord, you can do anything.
Lord, our hope is in you.
But we do prayyou change our hearts
and that you would hurrythe Lord Jesus to return.
(34:27):
We pray in his name.
Amen. Amen.
Awesome.
Well, thank you, PastorKell, for joining us today.
You brought wisdom and so muchpassion and knowledge and care
for your people.
I just love talking to you.
Thank you so muchfor the conversation today.
And my joy sister.
Have a great one.
Well, thanks for listenersfor tuning in to this episode.
We'll see you next timeon The Covenant Eyes
(34:48):
Podcast. Take care.
God bless.
Welcome back to TheCovenant Eyes Podcast.
It's so good to have youjoining us today.
Today we have a veryspecial guest joining us.
We have Pastor Garrett Kell.
He is the lead pastorat Del Ray Baptist
Church in Virginia,and he served there since 2012.
I believe he is also the authorof an amazing book
called Pure in Heart Sexual Sinand the Promises of God.
(00:29):
And how Do I FightSin and Temptation?
We are just so gratefulto have Pastor Kell
joining us today.
Welcome back.
Yeah, Karen, it's, great to tobe back with you guys
and thank youfor your ministry and, Yeah.
Hope you're doing well.
Yeah. Thanks.
Well, for those listenersthat are not familiar with you,
I know you've been onthe podcast before,
but would you mind sharingjust a little bit of
(00:51):
your story as,a pastor and the journey
that you've been on?
Sure.
Yeah.
I mean, I, I justconsider myself a debtor
to grace, became aChristian middle of my junior
year of collegethrough the witness of a friend.
Came out of a very, Yeah,ungodly, background.
And the Lord, in his mercy,sought me and saved
(01:12):
me and has kept me.
And I think it basically,as soon as I became a Christian,
I realizedthat I have been using
all of my influenceto help people go to hell.
And I said, yeah,the Holy Spirit helped me to
to see the responsibilitythat I had to try and
help people to followJesus and go to heaven
and to know him.
So ever since thatI've been trying to do
that imperfectly. And,yeah, for most of that
(01:34):
time it's been in a, you know,formal ministry setting.
But I tell our kids I'd be doingthe same thing even if I wasn't
a pastor in regardsto helping people follow Jesus.
And, but that'sthat's what I do.
So I have one wife.
Her name is Carrie.
We have seven kids, and,Yeah, that's what I said. And,
and, been a pastor foralmost 25 years,
(01:55):
and I've been here at Del RayBaptist Church since since 2012.
Awesome.
Wow. Yeah.
You're you're a busy man.
That's, That's a lot.
Oh my goodness.
Well, we're grateful,and I think one of the
the beautiful thingsis that for those of us
who kind of had the beforeChrist experience,
you know, it really compels usto want to help and,
(02:16):
and really get the messageof the gospel to people
because we know what it's liketo be lost
and to be in darkness.
So I'm just so gratefulfor your passion
and for the workthat you're doing.
So talk to usa little bit about, you know,
you certainly have writtensome really incredible books
that are designed to help peoplewho are struggling
(02:36):
with sin specifically.
You know, you've talkedabout in the past,
you know, pornographybeing one of those sins
that people wrestle with.
So talk to us a little bitabout the books
that you've written and the waythat you counsel
Christians who areconfronted with this sin.
Sure.
So, the, the primary workthat put together,
(02:59):
something called pure in heart,sexual sin
in the Promises of God.
It's basically a meditation
on Matthew 5 (03:03):
8.
And I, wrote it for our church.
I think there'sa lot of good resources
out there,but I didn't feel like
I had a resourcethat I could give to brothers
or sisters, peoplewho are struggling with same sex
attraction or.
Or not, peoplewho are older, young people
who have experiences or not,whatever it may be.
I wrote it for our church.
So it's it's intendedto be Christ glorifying.
(03:26):
And the whole thingis Matthew five eight.
Jesus says, blessed are the purein heart, for
they shall see God.
And I thinkone of the challenges
that we often findin conversations
about sexual purityis that purity becomes an
end in itself.
You know, did I just geta clean Covenant Eyes report?
Did I not given to this sinnerthat sin?
And that kind ofbecomes the goal
which the Scripture saysvery shortsighted.
(03:48):
Blessed are the purein heart for they shall see God.
So purity is a means to the endof seeing and knowing
and enjoying God.
And that should alwaysbe our goal.
So yeah, that'swhat put that book together.
It's intended to, yeah,help our church.
And in God's kindness,it seems to have been useful
for for people outside of that.
And then the little nonMark's booklet called,
(04:09):
Fighting Sin and Temptation.
How do I fight sinand temptation?
It's like a 60 page,I want to say 60.
They're like half pages.
So it's super short,little resorts.
It's intended to be justan introduction for somebody
to start a conversationabout what is sin,
what is temptation,and how do I,
by the grace of Godand the power of the Holy Spirit
in his promises, fight it?
(04:29):
And how do I help othersto do the same?
So yeah, I want themto be accessible resources
that are intendedto help people to
to follow Jesus until we see himface to face.
That's awesome.
Well, you know, alot of our listeners, either
struggle activelywith trying to overcome
the sin in pornography,or we even have a lot of spouses
and leaders that listento our podcast who,
(04:51):
either are supportingsomeone going through this
or maybe are, you know,feeling the pain
of being marriedto someone that's struggling
with pornographyand how that damages
the relationship and painand suffering
is certainly somethingthat we're not immune
to as Christians.
So what advicedo you have for people
that are going throughchallenging seasons that just
they feel too much, theyjust feel unbearable?
(05:14):
Yeah.
I think we want to rememberingthat suffering always pushes us.
It's it's either goingto push you away from God
in hardening your heartagainst him as to why would you
let this happen, or whateverit may be, or
it's going to push youtoward him in humility
and hopefulness?
And so I think you want toremember that when suffering
(05:36):
is coming, whether it bebecause of your own sin
or the sin of somebody elsethat is affecting you,
that it's it hasit has a purpose.
Satan wants to use itto push you away.
He wantshe wants faith to fizzle
and wants your heartto grow hard
and to not trust God.
Right?
But but the Lordwould intend to use it for good
(05:58):
and intendto draw you to himself.
And that's our prayer,is that we would, Yeah, that
we would see it in that way.
So, I think you want tojust keep your eyes on him.
Secondly,I would say you want to,
surround yourselfwith people to help you.
You need people who are going toweep with you.
(06:20):
You need people who are goingto tell you the truth.
You need peoplewho are going to pray with you
and pray for you.
We're not all strongat the same time.
And I think realizing that ispart of the beauty
of the body of Christ, that he'sgiven us one another
to lock arms with each other,to help one another to
to to look to Jesusand to lean into him.
(06:41):
So, yeah, I would sayin the midst of it,
remember that Godis still the goal.
He wants us and that he'snot being cruel.
He only ever does goodand that we can trust him.
That's beautiful and well said.
I think you brought upa really good point, too,
about being surroundedby other Christians
in the body of Christ,because oftentimes we when
(07:04):
we're struggling, our naturalkind of reaction is sometimes
to be isolated, to pull back tofor sure, to hide, you know,
and so for those Christiansout there
listening who, you know,maybe are withdrawing
instead of runningto those people, what can
what kind of advicedo you have for them?
Because it can feelkind of uncomfortable at times
(07:25):
when we're strugglingto reach out for help,
but we desperatelyneed it in those times.
Yeah, sure.
I think I think you're right on.
You know, shame is sucha powerful tool of the enemy.
I mean, he he blackmails usall the time
with all of the reasonsthat, you know, we're not worthy
to be loved by God.
All the reasons that if wewe are honest with others
(07:48):
that they won't love us.
All of the reasons that,you know, we should be rejected
and, you know,I think we have to
we have to rememberto listen to truth.
And what God saysis that we we aren't.
Everybody's a debtor to grace.
Everybody needs him.
And I think this is whatthe beauty of the body of Christ
(08:09):
is, that God has given usfellow sinners
like we tell our churchall the time, nobody, nobody,
if you're looking forthe right church,
came to the wrong placebecause there's nobody here
who has it all together, right?
Nobody strutsinto the kingdom of God.
We all come in with one boastand that that's that
we need Jesus.
So I think remember thatGod designed you to be able to,
(08:30):
to only make itwith the help of others.
And Satan wants to isolate you.
So I would just sayyour value is not in
what other people think of you.
Your value iswhat God thinks of you
because there's no condemnationfor those who are in Christ.
He's clothed youwith the righteousness
of Christ.
And and in that we canfind confidence.
(08:50):
And, you know, I thinkI think you don't want
just do not believe.
I can't tell you how many timesI've seen people
who are just riddledwith guilt and shame
that when they finally confessand they're honest
and they begintrying to fight this by the
the power of the Holy Spiritin honesty and in like,
they findthat they are loved and and in
(09:12):
the strangest way, respect levelgoes up for somebody
who's really tryingand leaning in.
And God uses that toto deepen relationships.
And I just want you to knowthat, that the Lord,
if you're struggling,that the Lord has people for you
to walk with you.
So make sure you're in a good,healthy church where the the
you know, the gospel isnot just talked about
(09:32):
but lived outand and the Lord will help you.
He promises to.
That's beautiful.
Yeah.
And that is so true.
One of the things at CovenantEyes, is we're really focused
on helping peoplelive with integrity and,
you know,walk with that integrity
when they're online.
So we often like totalk a little bit about that
(09:53):
issue of the importanceof having relationships
and accountability partnerswith our activity,
because the internetis the wild West, and it
certainly is a placewhere we, you know,
especially if we're strugglingwith temptation,
can get ourselvesinto a lot of trouble.
Can you talk a little bitabout the importance
of having accountable,whether it's using Covenant
(10:15):
Eyes or just,you know, being a part
of a men's or women's groupwhere you just talk about
the things that are going on,especially with your
activities online,because I think a lot of
people get in trouble online.
Well, yeah.
I mean, I think, you know,the internet, you know,
has has a lot of good things.
It also has a lot ofa lot of dangers.
And I think we should I think weshould be really careful
(10:36):
about how we engage with,you know, the internet, that
just because it's theredoesn't mean
that we need to be on itall the time. You know?
I mean, we live in a culture,that really woos us
away from quiet, from,you know, just
thinking and praying.
And I think we need tothink about it this way.
And I will answer your questionif I don't just come back to me.
(10:57):
But I just think the reality of,you know, being online,
like the world is designedto dull your spiritual sobriety,
like that's what it'sintended to do.
I mean, when was the last timeyou watched a show?
And then it went toa commercial break
and it said, don'tforget everything
that you think, doand say will one day
be brought before a holy God,and you'll give an account
for everything.
Have a nice day like that.
(11:17):
Doesn't happen.
No.
Should it would, should that be.
That'd be helpful.
But that's.
Yeah.
Well and I think this is whereChristians need to help one
another to realizethat being tethered
to the internet all the timewith whether it be games
or alerts or social media oranything like that,
it's not healthy.
It's not it's not normal.
(11:38):
It's not healthy,and it's not necessary.
It feels necessarybecause the whole thing
is designed that you're goingto miss out on this news
or this update on this friend,or this new trending thing,
and it's createsthis urgency toward
fleeting things.
And I think we just have to bereally careful
because especiallywhen we're stressed
or we're tired or we're hurtingor disappointed
(11:59):
or we're struggling,there's easily accessible
escapes of the worldthat we run to for refreshment.
And if we retreat to the world,we will learn to love the world,
because we were we were createdto love what we retreat to.
That's what Godthroughout the Psalm
says, I'm your refuge.
Just what Jesus said,come to me,
(12:20):
all you who are wearyand heavy laden,
and I will give you restlike we are designed to love
what refreshes us.
So if we like, oh, I'mI'm tired.
So I'm going to watch a showor I'm tired.
I'm, you know, my brain.
I'm just going to go and scrollor play this game
or check out my Instaor whatever your thing is like.
You've just got to know that'sthat pattern is not safe,
(12:43):
especially if it's not donewith with mature discipline of
stepping away.
This is why, like fasting.
Not just from,I mean from from food,
but also from social mediabeing online, all these sorts
of things is ait's neces sary like,
if you're not,you're in trouble.
Right.
(13:04):
I need people to tell methat stuff.
I need people to remind me.
Because if I'm just goingby myself, I'm just going
to kind of go with the flow.
But if you if you wantto go to hell and I mean this,
I don't mean to flippantly,but if you want to go to
hell, all you have to dois what is natural.
And this is why we need oneanother to remember.
Oh no, no no,there there is. Christ.
There is eternity.
Every moment matters.
(13:25):
So the reason accountability isso important
is because it providespeople around us to be able
to speak into our lives, to say,hey, listen,
I just want to tell you,praise the Lord for the growth
I've seen in you.
It's really encouraging.
We need that, right?
Because we don't always see it.
Then we also need people to say,hey, listen, I love you,
but I feel like I'ma little nervous.
(13:46):
I just know thatyou're just always
on your phone.
What was the last timeyou took a break?
Or, hey, you know, I got yourcovenant report and it said
that there was somesome disruption in the,
you know, in the serviceor it says that, hey,
these pictures came up.
Let's let's just talk about it.
What's what's going on?
How can I pray for you?
You know, and we justwe need that
because isolation againis is Satan's strategy,
(14:11):
to to make us vulnerable.
You don't have to watch,like, the Discovery
Channel very long.
And you just watch somethingthat's away from the herd.
That critter is goingto get eaten up by something.
And Satan does the same thingwith us, except he moves us away
with, you know, we'restaring at our phone,
and if we hear by ourself or,or shame or whatever else
it may be.
So, I'm not sure if that answerswhat you're looking for,
but I think it's important thingto talk about.
(14:32):
Absolutely.
No, it's very good.
I think, the interesting thing,too, is that, you know, the more
that we use technologyand we're on social media,
it really tears us apart.
Or away. I'm sorry.
From the peoplein our lives, you know,
I don't knowhow many times I've gone to, you
know, restaurants or justgoing to the grocery store,
and everybody'sgot their phone just,
(14:53):
you know, in their face,and they're not talking
with one another.
And that's, I think, sounhealthy and,
you know, dangerousas Christians because we need
that relationship.
We need to be connectedto the people around us.
I've seen someinteresting trends,
and maybe you've seensome of this too,
but some of the young, Gen Zers,actually are kind of moving
(15:13):
in a way where they are wantingto get back into church.
I saw a couple ofrecent articles that was talking
about the, Gen Zreturning to church and wanting
that communityand to be connected
and seeking that truth.
And that is that is amazing.
Like, praise God for that.
Are you seeing that kind ofmovement to you
that they're justkind of fed up?
They're like,something's not right
(15:35):
living online and doing thiswhole thing like,
something's wrong here.
Well, and I don'tI'll share this not, and,
I'm not trying to drawany attention to myself in this,
but I recently got to speakat a conference
called Cross Con, which is,a call for people to, you know,
use their live for the missionand the glory of God
among the nations.
And we did a breakout sessionon, on sexual purity
(15:58):
and, and the first nightthat they were there.
So there's 15,000 people at the,at the thing the first night
they had to turn thousands ofpeople away.
So they asked usto do it the next night,
and they still turned awaylike tons of people just because
the rooms were so full.
And that has nothingto do with me.
I think.
What, because most people doknow who I was,
(16:19):
which makes sense.
But like what it had to do withis you've got a generation
that's been lied tofor a long time.
Yeah, they've beengrown up on this,
this lie that, hey, you know,pornography is is life giving.
It's freedom.
And you just indulgein the things that you see.
Because we got to understandit's like pornography
is satanic discipleship.
(16:40):
And when youwhen you're following that path,
it it does nothingbut suck the life
out of your soul.
So I think you're right.
I think there's awhole generation who,
like this is not working.
I'm seeing the way it'sdestroying my parents.
I'm seeing the way it'sdestroying older siblings.
I'm seeing the way that, like,I've tried it and it's so empty.
There's not life there.
Give me something that matters.
(17:00):
Give me something that's real.
Give me something that's true.
And this is why I thinkyou know, we do see a lot of
a lot of young peoplecoming to church
looking for community.
We see people like moving awayfrom smartphones
and all kinds of stuff.
And I think thereis where, again,
some of the folksa little further down
the road can learnfrom some of the the younger
generation, again, that,you know, we
we it's okay to do that,to buck the buck the norm
(17:23):
and to sayno, we're going to walk
in a different way.
I mean, mightthis be the generation
where people are going to lobbyand make pornography illegal?
Might just be the generationthat says, we're done with this
and puts it to death.
I mean, that can happen.
We don't just haveto assume it's
going to keep goingthe way that it is.
So I'm thankful for what I'mseeing among young people,
and I pray that God will.
Yeah.
Give them give them courage andand strength and protection
(17:45):
from the evil oneas they lean in and
and try and livea different way.
You know, and it kind of createsa really big opportunity for,
people that are olderto disciple and walk alongside
these young peopleas they come in because they're
coming in rough and rugged.
They've been lied to,like cultures
really beat them up,you know, they don't
they don't know,much about the Bible
(18:07):
sometimes when theycome in those doors.
So what kind of opportunity doesthat, put before Christians
who have been walking the walkfor a while to disciple
and to walk alongsideyoung people?
Well, and that's, that's athat's the thing. Right?
You see, they're comingback to church.
And in the churchyou have a diversity
of generations and culturesand all the sorts of stuff.
(18:27):
And we need one another.
I know when I firstbecame a Christian,
I mean, at 21,I was sharing the gospel
with anything thatbreathed and moved
like I was on fire.
I had a lot of zeal,but I did not have much wisdom,
and I needed older Christiansto come alongside me and say,
listen, praise the Lordfor what's happening in you.
Let's think aboutthis direction.
(18:47):
Let's think about how do we readthe scriptures to make sure
that what we're sayingis not just exciting
spiritual talk,but it's actually
rooted in Scripturebecause we're going to
we want to helpother people know
truth about God,not just be riled up
about ideas. Right.
So I think there's a reallyunique opportunity,
and this is where I see it.
I don't, there's lotsof different circles of churches
in art and the kind of the,the group of churches
(19:11):
that I most oftenfellowship with, there's
there's a movement awayfrom a lot of the age,
age segregated stuff to wherelet's put gray hairs
with the young, the young bucks,and let's, let's learn
from one anotherand let's inspire one another.
Right.
Let's let's let the, the oldersisters instruct some of the
younger sistersand let's, let's help
and let the youngersisters, like, inspire
(19:33):
some older sistersto be like, yo, we got to talk.
We got to talk to our neighborsor about Jesus. Right?
Like, yeah, I thinkthe Satan wants
that to not happen, but the Lorddelights in it.
So I think there's aremarkable opportunity
for discipling acrossgenerational lines.
Right now, where wisdom and zealcan can become partners
and friendsin a way that I think,
(19:54):
I think the Lord could use in ingreat ways
to fuel everyone's faithand to make some,
some real headwayfor the gospel.
I love thatthat's really exciting.
And I think that also bringsup, you know, the
the big dilemma that churchesface, really,
because a lot of theseyoung people
coming to the churcheshave a lot of questions
about biblical sexualitybecause they're coming in
(20:17):
with their mind filled with liesand corruption that's been
fed to them for years.
And a lot of our churchesare not in a place
where they're readyto fill the void and help them
learn the truth.
So what kind of encouragementdo you have for pastors
and leaders out thereto really protect or, prepare,
and to be ready toanswer those questions
(20:39):
and to be welcomingto those questions.
Good question.
I, I think we just wantto encourage or remind pastors
of which I'm one.
So I need this is justas much for me.
It is for any other pastorwho's listening.
But we need the rightbalance of clarity,
courage and compassion.
And that's what peoplepeople need that
(21:01):
that's that's the I think that'sthe Christlike way.
We need clarity.
This is what the Bible says.
Like it's justjust teach the Bible.
Don't.
There's no creativityawards in heaven.
Like just teach clearlywhat God's Word says.
Do it courageously.
There are passagesthat you might
be tempted to jump over.
Do not, because whatyou're doing,
even if it's not relateddirectly to sexuality,
(21:22):
you're showing.
You're showing the congregationhow to be humble before
all of God's Word.
When you go through itthat we're just we're going
to receive what God says,we're going to submit to it,
we're going to wrestle with it.
We're going to say the thingswe don't know,
but we're going tosee good things belong to Lord,
but the things we know,let's grab them
and let's go. Right.
And then we do itwith compassion.
We don't do it as likeself-righteous guys who have it
(21:43):
all together, but rather we're,hey, we're
we're debtors to like,we need this grace.
This sermon isjust as much for me as this for
anybody else.
And I think that'ssort of clear,
courageous compassion in it.
Proclamation of gospeltruth is it's it's
compelling to people.
It's what we'recreated for. Right?
(22:03):
So I think, pastors,we need to be ready.
I mean, our statement of faith,we revised it
about 3 or 4 years agoto include statements
on, what marriage is on.
You know what, what gender isand how it relates
to biological sex.
I mean, you know, 20 years agowe've been like,
(22:23):
why are you putting thatin your statement of faith?
I think right nowwe want to do that from the get
go to initiate conversationsout of the gate of,
hey, this is who we are,and we want to show you
that, like, you can live boldly.
The world is notgoing to love it,
and you're going to get calledevery name in the book.
But but biblical sexuality,it is the issue,
the primary issue,practically speaking,
(22:44):
in one sense, that the churchhas to lead out on in a culture
that is going to call iteverything else,
because people will killone another to have sex
with whatever they want.
And and that'sjust not life giving.
But like, that's that'sthe reality that we're in.
And I think this is where,you know, we can't look
to legislatureto fix that because
(23:05):
because presidentswill come and go.
And whether there's presidentsare pushing one
agenda or another,the kingdom of God
is not built upthrough presidents.
And I you know,I think we just need to,
I live outside Washington, DC,so this is just something
we have to keep in.
Keep in mind.
But it's it's so importantthat the kingdom of God is built
through the Word of God.
And so we need to, regardless ofwhat the tide is that's blowing,
(23:28):
not do anythingexcept preach the gospel
and pour into the local churchand build it.
Because that's what thethe gates of hell
won't prevail against.
So pastors, have courage.
Don't be jerks for Jesus.
Like that's not the answer.
And I think you want to createan environment
where no matter what somebody'sstruggling with,
like they feel welcomed.
(23:49):
So in one sense,the church should be
the safest place to be a sinner.
What I don't mean bythat is that we're compromising
and affirming everybody's sin,but rather it means that,
hey, listen, if you're a sinner,there's only one house to go to.
It's the house where Jesus is.
So let's go and let's meet him.
And so we want to try and paintthat picture
(24:11):
as often as possiblethere regardless,
because everybody'ssexually broken.
It looks differentfor everybody, but everybody's
sexually brokenbecause of the fall.
It just affects everybody.
So in light of that,nobody should have this
look down on.
And also nobody should feellike they're so far gone
or what they strugglewith is so strange to God
that he can't give helplike the Lord.
(24:32):
His spirit can give help.
No matter where you areor what you've done or what
you struggle with.
He loves you and will help you.
And I think a community thatthat wraps arms around
you know, folks,whether they struggle
with the same thing or somethingthat looks a little different,
Jesus is always the answer.
And our sins,not the biggest problem,
however, it's displaying itself.
(24:53):
Our our sin generally is.
And Jesus the Savioris always our hope.
Absolutely.
Oh my goodness, that's so good.
Well, I'm going to kindof circle back to just
kind of the topic of pornographybecause, last year,
I don't know if you sawand I'm sure you did the
the new Barna stats that kind ofindicated an uptick
in pornographyuse among Christians.
(25:15):
And now women are struggling,at 44% of Christian women
also are strugglingwith pornography.
So, you know, pornographyis definitely something
that the church needs to boldly,address.
And also,you know, equip and help
people, address that.
Do you haveany recommendations on
(25:35):
how a church could startserving the members in this way?
Yeah, I think, number one,you want to pray.
You want to pray that God wouldbring conviction to to people,
who are struggling.
His spirit can do thatand will do that.
So I think there'swe want to be slow
(25:57):
to think, well, the first answeris a program or do this or that.
We can get to that in a second,but we really need
to be a people who pray,because this sort of revival
that we needis only going to come about
by the Spirit of Godmoving upon the people of God
by the grace of God.
So we just need to praythat God would move
and give us eyes to see thingsfor what it is.
This is one of the thingsdeciding that I like
(26:19):
about Covenant Eyesand what it does like it?
It puts whatyou've looked at online
before the eyes ofan image bearer,
and when it's like,hey, I saw this, what is that?
And the shame, like thethe fear, the whole,
the whole thing that happens,it's actually really,
really helpful because if,if before an image bearer,
how much more beforeGod himself.
(26:40):
And I think it, it helps us toto have some sobriety
that's there right.
So we need to prayfor spiritual sobriety
because Satan is making usdrunk on the world
and may he help us.
Second thing,I think the preaching has to be
done in such a waythat it's it's clear and it's,
it's it's aimedat the sorts of things
(27:01):
that people are struggling with.
So I would just say,if your sermon every Sunday
is about pornography,that's weird.
But if you preach, if you preachfor six months, if you preach
for three months,and it's not like one
of the applications,that's weird too.
I mean, it should be partof the conversation, you know,
that, you know, theyand you can do it in a way
(27:21):
that if you have mixed,you know,
with generational stufflike the hate
when you get online,there's good pictures
and there's bad pictures,and we need to be very
aware of that.
And, you know, some of usare struggling in this area and,
and I think as we're giventhe applications,
this is somethingthat's for brothers and sisters.
So if your brotheror sister and this is a
this is a temptationfor you or something
(27:42):
you're ensnared in right now,we just want you to know
the grace of Godis ready to help you.
So if you if you arefeeling convicted or if you know
you should be and you're not,plead with God to help
you reach out to our elders.
Or, if you're a sister,you can reach out to this.
You know,we have an email address
for sisters.
Reach out to and begincounseling conversations.
And like weyou want to have avenues
(28:03):
for people to be able to respondin a way that's, you know, hey,
I need to come inand talk about this.
So I think you want to normalizethe reality that people in
the congregation are struggling.
And then outside of that,I think you want to be equipping
your leaders to make normaldiscipling
conversations include.
(28:23):
So, let's talk about how you'redoing with your time.
How are you doing with money?
How are you doing with whatyou're looking at online?
What was the last time that youyou saw something,
that, you know,you shouldn't have?
And what was yourresponse to it?
And how can I help you?
And so those should be Norm,all sorts of conversations
that Christians are havingbecause time is fleeting.
(28:45):
Jesus talks about hell,you know, money
more than anything else and how,you know, like your credit
card statement is a theologicalstatement.
And if you. Are true.
If you don't openthat up and show other
Christians like, hey,this is how I spend my money.
Yeah.
Like, if we're embarrassedto do that because of
what's there, like,that's just as dangerous
as pornography is, right?
I mean, so we want tothink about that and then
(29:06):
we need to be able to do thatwith our search histories.
Like, look, that thing isthere ain't deleted a thing.
Like, let's talk about it.
And so I just thinkthat has to be part of the
normal conversations,like cultural Christianity,
where we just like showup, get our,
you know, get our starand leave like, that doesn't
help anybody.
We need real like,intentionally intrusive,
(29:27):
grace filled conversations abouthow are you doing,
where we can encourageand challenge each other
until we see his face.
That's awesome.
And I love that you broughtup your staff and having staff
ready to help and to be there.
So is that somethingthat you guys train like your,
your leadership teamsand your elders and women's
(29:49):
group leadersand things like that?
Do you train them in preparationfor tough conversations
about all sorts of topics?
Because some churches doand some don't.
And then, you know,if there's an issue,
they don't know how to help.
So I just was curiouswhat you guys do specifically.
Yeah.
I mean, we're we're trying towe do it imperfectly.
You know, our elders regularlyhave conversations
about one another.
(30:10):
So we model for one anotherhow to ask those intentionally
intrusive questions.
And then we are teaching thatsame sorts of things
that the peoplethat we're meeting with.
So all of our elders, meetwith all of the, you know, the,
leaders of the communitygroups, fellowship
groups, small groups,whatever you want to call them.
And they're modelingthose same sorts
of things for them.
Same thing with sisters.
(30:30):
So we have a couple sisterswho are on staff
who are really giftedwith counseling conversations.
And that's kind of partof the normal sort of
one of the things thatis brought up, you know,
how are we doing in this area?
And yeah, so we areI think one of the things
is happeningin our church right now
is we've we're growingin a way that is requiring more,
(30:52):
systems for this.
So you can pray for usto have wisdom in that,
because I think beforeit was easier for it to just be
the normal culture.
And everybody kind of did that.
We were at that sizeof a church where, now I think
we're having to think ona kind of a larger scale
a little bit.
I mean, it's not huge,but it's still it's
more than we know how tohandle right now.
So Lord, help us getget some wisdom
in how to do that.
(31:12):
But we do.
We are intentional with brothersand sisters in trying to invest
and make surethat these are parts of the
normal conversation.
Yeah.
That's great, I love that,and I think a lot of churches
are moving in that directionto be prepared and to have stuff
prepared for that. Yeah.
And one thing I would just sayand not to interrupt
is if right now somebody was inyour congregation
and they wanted to confess,would they know how to do that
(31:36):
between them and God?
Would they know whothey could go to
in the congregation,even if they were kind of new?
And is it clearhow do you reach out
to an elder pastor?
Is there a sisterthat's either on staff
or just a mature sister,that you've been able
to, to point to?
Is is it would people knowhow to do that?
And if not, just think, okay,then how can we
(31:58):
create some some avenueso we don't need to have
some big elaborate thingbecause somebody can hear
that and be like, oh, I can dothis whole thing. No.
Just some pathwayto be able to sit down
with a Christian and talklike that's all we're
thinking about.
So it doesn'thave to be overwhelming.
Just.
But I do think it's necessaryto provide
some of those pathwaysfor sheep to walk on
so they know how to, to get tosome of those green pastures.
(32:19):
That's excellent wisdom.
Well, thank you so much.
Well, our time today is actuallycoming to a close,
but I would loveto close out today with,
some prayer for thosewho are listening,
who may be facingsome challenges, whether it's,
you know, pornographyuse or maybe their spouse
and they're just prayingfor that break
through for their,their partner.
(32:40):
So could you offeras just a closing prayer
for today's episodefor the listeners? Sure.
Awesome.
Father in heaven.
You know, what each ofus are facing.
So, Lord, I pray for any mightbe the listener right now
who are ensnaredin, in pornography or some sort
of sexual sin.
(33:00):
And they just we're lookingfor something to try
and give some helpand some hope.
And they've listened this far.
Lord, would you remind themthat even even them hearing
this prayer is youmercifully extending
grace to them,that they might know
that you see them and love them,and have help and hope for them?
And Lord, would you help themto step into the light
no matter what it costs?
And would you show themthat it's worth it because you
(33:21):
give yourself?
Father, I pray for spouseswho might be listening
in, who are looking forand pleading with you
for some wayto help their spouse
who is ensnared.
Oh Lord, would you givewould you give help?
Would you give wisdomto that suffering spouse
about how to talkto their spouse?
How to talk to their pastors,about the stuff that's going on?
(33:42):
Lori, pray for for help.
Lord, pray for for pastorswho might be listening.
Oh Lord, would you help usto be clear and courageous
and compassionate?
And would you help usto not be above the congregation
in some kind ofcondescending way?
But we would be humble servantswho know that we need grace.
And Lord, mightyou might you help us.
And Lord, pray for the churchat large.
We pray for the youngand the old, to alike,
(34:05):
love one another.
Together we pray thatthere would be inspiration
of both zeal and wisdom.
And we pray that you would.
Yeah, yeah,he would change our land
through the church.
We do pray for, YouTube.
Yeah.
In this plague of pornography,we pray it become illegal.
And, Lord, you can do anything.
Lord, our hope is in you.
But we do prayyou change our hearts
and that you would hurrythe Lord Jesus to return.
(34:27):
We pray in his name.
Amen. Amen.
Awesome.
Well, thank you, PastorKell, for joining us today.
You brought wisdom and so muchpassion and knowledge and care
for your people.
I just love talking to you.
Thank you so muchfor the conversation today.
And my joy sister.
Have a great one.
Well, thanks for listenersfor tuning in to this episode.
We'll see you next timeon The Covenant Eyes
(34:48):
Podcast. Take care.
God bless.
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