November 7, 2025 • 47 mins
Join Covenant Eyes podcast hosts Karen Potter and Theo McManigal for an inspiring conversation with Bobby and Jackie Angel — Catholic authors, speakers, and parents known for their work with Ascension Presents and Word on Fire.
In this heartfelt episode, Bobby and Jackie share their powerful stories of faith, marriage, and ministry — from meeting through the Theology of the Body Institute to navigating life as Catholic parents of five in today’s tech-driven world.
🔥 What You’ll Learn:
• How Bobby overcame p*** through accountability and grace
• The role of Covenant Eyes in building a culture of digital integrity
• Practical tips for parents raising children in an online age
• How to talk to your kids about human sexuality, identity, and faith without shame
• Why Theology of the Body changes everything about how we see love, the body, and God
• How to integrate faith into everyday life — from video games to relationships
Bobby and Jackie discuss their latest books, their passion for evangelization, and how Catholic families can thrive amid cultural chaos. Whether you’re a parent, youth minister, or seeking to live chastely and authentically online, this episode offers both practical advice and spiritual encouragement.
📖 Featured Guests
Bobby & Jackie Angel – Catholic authors, speakers, and parents; creators with Ascension Presents
🔗 https://jackieandbobby.com/
Jackie & Bobby YouTube
🔗 https://www.youtube.com/@jackieandbobby
🎙️ Hosts
Karen Potter & Theo McManigal – Hosts of The Covenant Eyes Podcast
🔗 https://www.youtube.com/@covenanteyes
⏱️ Timestamps
00:00 – Welcome & Introduction
01:00 – Bobby & Jackie’s faith journey
04:00 – Overcoming p*** through accountability
05:50 – The power of Theology of the Body
08:30 – Living an integrated Catholic life
10:00 – Seminary lessons that prepare for marriage
15:00 – Parenting in the digital world
18:30 – Talking to kids about sexuality and identity
23:00 – Guarding innocence without fear
31:00 – Evangelizing through media and marriage
37:00 – The meaning of love and responsibility
40:00 – Upcoming books and projects
43:00 – Final advice: “You can’t give what you don’t have.”
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#DigitalIntegrity
#InternetAccountability
#ScreenAccountability
#FaithAndTechnology
#ChristianParenting
#RaisingFaithFilledKids
#CatholicParents
#FaithBasedParenting
#ProtectKidsOnline
#ParentingInADigitalWorld
#CatholicPodcast
#CatholicFaith
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#CatholicMarriage
#CatholicFamily
#ChastityProject
#JohnPaulII
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
Hey, everybody, welcome backto the Covenant Eyes podcast.
I'm Karen Potter,one of the hosts
for the Covenant Eyes podcast,and I am joined today by Theo,
who is back in studioto record with us today.
And Theo, you're really excitedabout today's interview.
I know.
I sure am.
Thank you for, as always, forletting me co-host
along with you, Karen.
So we have a couple of,guests here who are very well
(00:29):
known in the Catholic world.
You have likely seen videosof them on Ascension Presents
YouTube channel.
It worked for Word on Fire.
They have our speakers.
Most importantly,they're Catholics.
They're a wonderfulmarried couple, with children.
And, they're here todayto talk with us about,
a wider range of topics.
(00:49):
Bobby and Jackie,angel, Bobby and Jackie,
thanks for joining us today.
And, welcome to The Covenant onthis podcast.
So for those of, for peoplewho might not be familiar
with you guys by chance,just tell us a little bit
about yourselves.
So maybe how you got togetherand how you started,
the great workthat you're doing.
Yeah, I know.
There you go.
So both of us, both of uswere raised Catholic,
(01:13):
but had a real huge conversionsin our faith.
Around 18 at a Steubenvilleconference across the country.
You know, I'm from Californiaand Bobby's from Florida.
And, our journeys werevery different.
But essentially, you know,I was doing ministry
front in collegeand outside of actually,
Bobby was doing Ministry two.
We both love youth ministry.
We both were corps members.
(01:33):
It's funny because at some pointwe could have met,
at this one summer campthat I was at every year, Life
Teen Cove in Georgia.
And Bobby was a corps member,and his group came,
but he could never gobecause he couldn't
get time off of workfor being a lifeguard.
And so we couldhave met earlier.
But the Lord had a planthat we would meet.
Said no.
Yeah, it wasn't time yet.
And so we met in 2011at the Theology
(01:56):
the Body Institutein Pennsylvania.
The only problemwas at the time, the first time
I met Bobby, he was in seminary,and I was like, oh gosh, Lord,
you always take the goodlooking ones like, stop,
please take me to leave some ofthem for us.
So anyway, so we met.
What was cool about that is itreally allowed us
just to be friends and not have,you know, it was just
like allowing meto love my brother in Christ
(02:17):
like he was my brotherin Christ.
I really wantedthe best for him.
And so we had this friendship.
And the next timewe met at theology,
the Body Institutewas about a year
and a half later,and at that point, Bobby was
his discernmenthad changed and he was
we always joke that he was like,all right, Lord, I feel like I'm
called to marriage,but you need to give me a sign
that needs to be loud and blond.
(02:38):
And I'm like, you know, so,so we met and yeah,
it was so funnybecause my heart.
I always wanteda husband who I could do
ministry with, and it just was.
We both have a heartfor for ministry
and for sharing the Lordwith people.
And so we got marriedand we have five kids,
but we still continueto speak together and sometimes
(03:02):
separately, but also togetherabout different topics
like theology, the body andkind of just anything we
now speak from, like high schoolall the way till like to
parish missionswhere people are like
99, you know, so all ages. Yeah.
It's been beautiful to watchthe ministry change
as the years go on.
We never thought we'dget involved in video ministry,
(03:23):
but Jackie had made contactsat Ascension, and they wanted
to build out beyond just fatherMike Schmitz, who we all know
and love.
And so we've been doingvideos for them for a number
of years now.
And, I taught at an all boysCatholic high school
for about ten years, the firstten years of our marriage.
(03:43):
And so the issues of chastity,the the problem of pornography,
very much like, evergreen topicto get into
and even the blessing oflike how our ministries
all continue to build eachother up over time.
I was in seminary and Ihad an on off battle
with pornographyfor a number of years.
(04:05):
And I remember there was a gracebomb moment
in my seminary journeywhere I realized, I,
I just want this out of my life.
If I'm a spiritual fatheror if I'm a biological father,
enough's enough.
And it really was,the accountability
of seeking that outthrough my brother
seminarians nowwho some of whom are my
(04:25):
brother or brother priests,and using covenant Eyes as a
pivotal program to just get thatdigital accountability
in my life so that forthe sake of my vocation,
which I didn't know whatit would be at the time.
So even like howlike the rising tide
lifts all ships.
It's beautiful to see as we'vebecome more seasoned aka old
(04:51):
when I did not haveso much gray hair in my early
YouTube videos.
It's beautiful to seewhat the Lord is doing
and continues to doand how now, like
just the generations coming up,what has taken root
and what is continuing to bless,people around the world
that's incredible.
I love thatyou shared your story
(05:11):
and what a uniquejourney God is.
You know, he is amazing,but he also has a bit of a
sense of humorbecause, you know,
you think you knowwhere your life is going.
And sometimes he directs ussomewhere else,
and it ends up beingthe most beautiful thing
that we never couldhave seen coming.
So I just love that.
Thanks for sharing thatyou guys and your, work.
You talk about everything.
I mean, there really isno subject that you don't cover.
(05:33):
You talk about marriagesand how to build strong,
faith centeredmarriages, parenting.
You talk about cultural issues,you talk about everything.
How are you guysusing all of the topics
that are relevantto people nowadays,
but tying them backto biblical truth?
How are you incorporating thatinto everything you do,
(05:53):
and what kind of study and prepdo you do for that?
I mean, it helps that Bobbyand I both I mean,
even since we were in college,like when I had my conversion,
I just wanted to get my hands onanything I could.
I wanted to learn everythingI could about my faith.
And I started reading the Biblefor the first time,
memorizing scripture.
I started readingthe catechism and,
(06:14):
you know, kind of readingevery Catholic
apologetics and thatthat also went along
with our formationjust in ministry,
which is the experienceof being with people.
And as you journey with peopleand you learn
more stories, you learn,I mean, gosh, the things
I've heard in the last 20 yearsof doing ministry have broken
my heart of like,even when I work
with teenagers or middleschoolers, I'm like, man,
(06:36):
there are things that these kidsno one should ever have
to experience at the age of 12or like like by the age of 16,
there are kids who havehad more trauma
in their life, more.
It's just so even the experienceof ministry that we have walked
with a lot, a lot of youngmen and young women,
and then also, we both loveour Catholic faith.
I mean, Bobbythen was in seminary.
(06:57):
He he got his bachelors.
And I mean, besidesyour bachelor's in English and,
you know, like, we both hadour own, like,
then he got a bachelor'sin philosophy and theology
and a master's in theology.
And so we both love reading.
All of which is super,super practical.
Yeah.
To become the best baristaat the local coffee shop. Right.
English.
Philosophy, theology, history.
(07:17):
You have a minor in history?
Yeah.
I got the bestbarista out there.
So for us, we just we'rewe're big nerds.
I mean, we love reading.
We love our faith.
And so that justkind of went along with
the experiential part ofI talk a lot
about relationships.
And so the more peopleI encountered,
(07:39):
the more young women,the stories that I heard,
I was like, oh my gosh, like,and thank God for Pope
John Paul.
That really gave usthis framework
of theology, the body.
It not only changedour lives, but
it continues to change livesof like learning how
how do we be human? How?
What does it mean to be a human?
What does it mean to loveand love in a proper way?
(08:00):
So for us, when it comesto prepping for videos
and stuff, a lot of the stuffis just stuff
we have learned overthe last 20 years.
And then sometimeswe need to brush up on stuff
or just depending on the,the topic.
It just it just depends,you know.
I think Jackieand I also both love that that
theme of integrationand being human,
(08:22):
because it's not aboutbeing compartmentalized
and segmented.
And to be a person of faithmeans you're saying no
to the rest of life.
Like, I love video games,and I wrote a book about like,
can you be a discipleof video games?
I love hiking and nature.
And the Catholic Churchthis year is Canonizing
(08:42):
two young peoplewho Carlo Akunis
and the first millennialto be declared as saints who
play video games, coded.
I made websites Pierre Giorgiofor somebody who died 100 years
ago, who loves hikingand pulling pranks on friends,
and both young Italianmen who died before
(09:03):
they were married, beforethey were in a vocation proper,
but loved the Lord and said yesto the whole of life.
So I think Jackie andI also come from backgrounds
where maybe we were maybe tooimmersed in the world,
or sports, or entertainment,but also know that to say yes to
Jesus is to also purifyand find the good in a lot of
(09:24):
these things.
Like it's not aboutjust hard no's across the board,
it's about being fully human.
And Jesus transformsthe best of what
we're looking for in a lotof these things.
And this includes things likethe internet, things like video
games, entertainment.
(09:46):
There's a good we're seekingunderneath it.
So even when it comesto chastity
to, to for both of usto have been on an
individual journeyand intellectual
journey, but alsogetting to the heart of
what am I really looking for?
And how am I being calledto love rightly?
Thank you forsharing all of that.
(10:06):
One thing I would love isthe chance to,
ask you, Bobby, is, speaking oneformer seminarian
to another. Actually,how do you feel that the the
do you feel thatthe seminary actually
was a good preparationfor marriage and parenthood?
And if so, and they say it is,right.
(10:26):
And it is nice that, Bobbyand I can both attest
that God gives some of the goodlooking ones back, but,
I would say how,how do you think it prepared you
for marriage and parenthoodand for all the work
you're you're doing now?
Oh, there was a classwe had to take where
the whole first semesterwas active listening.
And I wish every husbandhad to take that class.
(10:47):
I'd be amazed.
That they called itpastoral counseling.
Mandatory.
Yeah.
So we thoughtwe were going to learn
how to fix people now.
But you got to imagine a roomfull of 30 plus guys, all ages,
being taught how to listenand how frustrating that was.
But the whole dynamic ofwe can't fix people.
You show up, you listen,you be attentive,
(11:10):
and you can helpdirect and guide.
But also a person is not lookingto be fixed.
They're looking to beheard in a company.
So there is there was so muchin my seminary years
of getting over myselfand your four majors
and your teachers, and you'rejust getting stretched.
You're getting evaluated,which is not fun.
(11:31):
Like not just your grades.
Like you as a manare getting evaluated.
And you may think you're awesomeand you're God's
gift to the church.
And they're like, yeah,we see some room for growth.
And that's not alwaysfun to receive.
So totally like,I wish every man
could have some kind of seminarylike boot
camp of that time away,giving that to the Lord
(11:55):
and trusting yourself,going deep not just like surface
level band aid solutionsto your problems, but let's get
let's get to the rootsof some of these wounds
and problematic behaviorsso that you're not bringing them
into a marriage.
I thank you for sharing that.
I just wanted to talk about thatbecause, you know,
all of us have, a past,and that can consist of
(12:18):
just thinking life was goingto turn out one way
and having to turn out another,or even our own woundedness
or bad choices we've made.
But, a lot of times we see thatit all works for good,
and there's oftenso much that we can take from it
that benefits our life now.
And so this is justif you got any
if there's any young menlistening like, you know,
(12:40):
give it a try,whatever, whatever you, wherever
you ultimately endup, everything you've done
leading up to that point,well, you'll find
plenty of thingsthat will benefit you,
even if it's only the mistakes.
And be not afraid,because I think there's the lie
placed there by the evilone that the Lord
wants to take from us.
He wants to make us into boringstatues.
(13:01):
He wants to suckthe life out of us.
He doesn't knowour hearts like we do.
It's like he knows our heartsbetter than we know ourselves.
And you're not missing any time.
Like you're not goingto miss your vocation.
You're not going tolose time by giving
time to the Lord.
And whether that'smissionary activity,
whether that is time discerningthe priesthood or just
(13:24):
being single in the worldto not grass.
And we'll talk a little bitabout this, like how the culture
we're taughtto grasp pornography
naturally teaches us toI take what I want,
when I want it, like that'swhat it's training us for.
So we have to actively workagainst that
to surrender and say,Lord, your ways better
help me to be patientand you transform me and
(13:49):
my stubborn heart.
Yeah, and I'm grateful.
I mean, as a wife,I'm so grateful for those years
he had in seminary.
And, I mean, I jokinglyalways said, it's like, Lord,
if I could be a nun, but I'm notcalled to be a nun
because I just startedbeing a sister. And, you know,
like, I reallycould pray all day
and I go to adorationall the time, go to daily mass.
I'm like, if I could be a nun,but I'm not called to be a nun.
I need a guywho could be a priest
(14:09):
that's not calledto be a priest.
And here comes Bobby.
But I'm gratefulfor those years again.
I'm grateful he got.
It was those yearsthat he routed pornography
out of his lifebefore we even met.
Like that was.
That's such a gift.
And then. Yeah.
And then also just the growththat he had in information
and in therapy, like,it just brought us to a place.
(14:30):
And the classeshe took on active listening. You
got what?
What would you say?
Just I'm very I'm very gratefulfor that time of formation
that I wish.
I wish every Catholicman or woman like,
had some greatyears of formation.
You just said, how do you behuman again?
How I spend time discerningreligious life, too.
That's that's good.
That's great.
(14:51):
Kudos to you, Bobby,for your ability to kick the
pornography habit while you werein the seminary.
I couldn't,it took after that, but,
you were able to.
So kudos to you, my friend.
Absolutely.
Well, with that,I want to kind of
pivot our conversationbecause you guys mentioned
you have five children,which that is amazing.
And certainly with children,you understand that the digital
(15:12):
landscape out therecertainly is impacting parents
and children alike.
So talk to us a little bitabout some wisdom that you guys
have gleaned over the yearsof raising your children
and how to navigate technology.
And where does that boundariesand what things you're kind of
installing in your familyto keep your kids safe
and healthy online?
(15:32):
Yeah.
So it startsat a really young age
in the sense of evenjust affirming the goodness
of their body.
So like,we want our kids to know
their bodies are good, like whattheir bodies are for.
So even when they're little,I mean, calling their body parts
by the right names when they'rein the bathtub or like,
you know, kidsplay with themselves, okay?
We don't playwith our penis or vagina
(15:52):
because they'renot a toy, you know?
So like, again, they'rethey start learning
from a young age what theirbody parts are,
what they're for.
And a very non shame,non shame based way.
Like we want them to knowtheir bodies are good.
And so preparing them forI mean so like even the talk
like the talkis a bunch of talks
like leading up to thatabout their bodies.
(16:13):
And gosh I mean we've alreadytalked about like the difference
between men and women are likethey watched
we watched Spider-Verse.
It was into the Spider-Verseand that the word puberty
and they're like,what's puberty?
And I was like, well,when someone becomes
a boy, becomes a manor girl becomes a woman,
and then, you know, you justflesh out things as they ask.
They're asking questions.
So stuff like that.
So now when itcomes to technology,
(16:36):
we, I mean, with ourwith our youngest,
we were very or sorrywith our oldest,
we were very likeno screens before too.
And now now that you havewhen you have five kids
and your oldestare playing Mario
Kart, you know, and thenthe youngest is like,
these are not even two year old.
He's like Mario Kart agelike you think it's so anyways.
(16:57):
But we do have specific timesof like we homeschool
and then when I'm getting dinnerready, that's like their
their TV time.
And then we have like Tuesdaysand Thursdays and like family
video game night. Right.
So because when we, we got,we received the switch
from Bobby's parents,we were like, okay,
we need rules around this.
Like, this is notjust you're going to go play.
(17:18):
Our kids do not havetheir own iPads.
Like the kids can playcertain games on our phones,
like word scapes or whatever,just certain things.
They are not allowedto go on YouTube by themselves.
And what's good is I've hadthis conversation.
So our two oldest are girls,and they are
ten and a half and nine,and I've already
I've read the books,the good pictures,
(17:39):
bad pictures with them.
And so they know,you know, like, if I ever see
anything into mom, dad.
And, but they'rereally good together
because they also, I think ifanything like that happened,
the other one would be like, oh,you know, they would, they would
say something.
So we have rulesaround technology.
The only time that we have likea no holds barred iPad or movie
time or screentime is like literally
(18:00):
when we're on a planeor when we are on a car ride,
like a really long carride is the only time
that we're like, all right,here's another movie.
We can watch a movie.
But even then, those are movieswe've watched.
And so my kids also knowwhen it comes to new movies,
they come to me and say, mom,can we watch this movie?
And I will Google the movieand I will like,
look at parent reviews.
I will also Googlelike LGBT with it because I want
(18:20):
to see like, what are what'sin these movies and are they
trying to show.
And there have been timesI've told my kids like,
I'm sorry, you can't watch this.
Why?
Because they're tryingto tell you that something
is really, really goodwhen it's not like this is.
And they're doing itto children.
This is not adults like thisis they're trying
to insert in there or, you know,sexual themes
or whatever they'redoing or bad words.
(18:42):
And so my kids and I, theespecially the older ones, once
they get to the age of reason,you know, which is 7 or 8,
man, we've had somegreat conversations
about just differenttopics like, hey, mom, like,
why did that guysay he had a boyfriend
or a husband and,you know, just talking
about the church's teaching,what we believe
about that, but alsohow do we love people like even
(19:03):
who do struggle withsame sex attraction?
How do we lovepeople who do struggle
with their identityand don't know if they're
male or female?
So I love the, there, thereis this book that I,
the girl was like,there's a difference
between our positionas a church.
Like, what's our position?
What do we believeand what's our posture
towards peoplewho struggle with that
or who deal with that.
And so like, I want our kidsknow, like, here's
(19:24):
what we believe as Catholics,but here's also
how we treat people.
We love peoplewherever they are.
And we always wantto bring people to Christ.
So yeah, there'sa lot of different, like, things
that we are doing and yetjust constant conversations.
So our kids don't, thinkthat their bodies are bad or
that sex is bad.
So when we do havethese conversations, you know,
they don't think like,Mom and Dad are ashamed
(19:46):
of all this stuff.
One of our favorite booksis Unwanted by Jay Stringer.
And and in that book he talksabout how the difference
between rigid families and thendisengaged families
and the amount of kidsfrom those kind of families
who do end up looking at porn.
And again, when you haveeither extreme,
when you have reallyrigid families who are like,
sex is bad, don't do it.
(20:06):
The very puritan is theis to kind of culture.
And then you have the very laxlike they don't
talk to you at all.
They're very disengaged.
Mom and dad don'ttalk to you at all.
And you're left to do thingsby yourself.
Man, those outcomesare not good.
It was like between 77%and 87% of those kids ended up
looking at versuswhen you actually have
conversations with yourcan you very
open with your children,and they know that they can come
(20:29):
to mom and dad about anything.
They can ask about anything.
There's nothing off limits.
They can ask questionsabout their bodies.
They can because which we do.
Like, if anything,I'm like, hey, let me know if
there's anything going on here.
They're like, come talk to momand I'll help you, you know,
so that openline of communication is super,
super important.
And then even with technology,I mean, do you want to add
(20:51):
anything else like that?
We do know some families havelike home, like internet.
Software. Yeah.
Like house wide blockersand stuff like that.
We don't we just arevery like mindful
of what they're watchingand keeping that, like knowing
like you're only playingat certain times and.
(21:14):
There's only one TV.
I mean.
We only have one.
We have one TV in the house.
They're not allowedon, you know, an iPad
or our phones free reign.
And knowing too, like it'sthe warmth and the empathy
like that, we're trying to modelthat, that it's not the body
is something to be ashamed of.
And even like watchingkids are always watching
their parents reactions.
(21:35):
And if I bring something upand we get super uncomfortable,
if we get superdon't talk about this,
then they're hearing, well,I can't talk to Mom
or dad about this topic.
I've got to go to my friends.
I've got to go toto cousins or elsewhere.
So it's also do and doingthe work of like where does
where do I need healingand where do I need
to be purifiedand where do I need
(21:57):
to have this visionof the goodness of the body?
How like the dangers that areout there and protecting my
family, not necessarilysheltering them for their
entire childhood because I thinkthere are like age appropriate
conversations to be hadof the dangers
that are out there, but alsoguarding their innocence
(22:19):
as long as possible,which is is a lot.
It's tiring to be vigilant, and.
I will say this is going to bemassively different between if
you homeschool or if your kidsgo to school, because if
your kids are in school,these conversations
need to happen way earlier,because I can't tell you
the amount of parentswho have told me, oh yeah, my
(22:39):
kid was on the busand they're ten,
and they had pornshoved in their face
on someone else's phone.
Like when your kidsgo to school, these
you you have tohave conversations super early
versus like, our kidsare homeschooled.
We know the technologythey have.
Their most of their friendswho are also homeschooled
do not have phones like so.
They don't have the accessto that kind of stuff.
(23:00):
And then I'm talkingto the moms of like, what?
Have you talked toyour kids about?
Something like,what are the talks you've had?
You know, so it's it'sgoing to be hugely different
if your kids are in school.
Those conversationsneed to happen so much earlier
when it comes to pornography,when it comes to, even even sex,
like, again, as a parent,you want those conversations
(23:21):
to come from you first.
And so often we never receivethose conversations
from our parents.
So a lot of times people don'tfeel equipped.
One of the two of the best booksthat you could get about
these topics are DoctorJulia Sandusky.
Her two books areHow to Talk to Your Kids
about Sex and How to Talkto Your Teens.
Or start, I think itstart talking to your
kids about sexand how to or start
(23:42):
talking to your teens about sex.
And it goes through puberty.
It goes through pornography.
It goes through everythingin a Catholic lens.
And they're really,really, really good.
She even givesyou like the scripts,
like when you don't knowhow to say things she like,
literally gives you.
Here are scriptsthat you can say.
And the main point isthe parents should always
be the primary sourceof all information.
(24:04):
The parent should be the experton these topics.
Their friendsshould not be the expert
like you as a parentshould be the expert.
Your kids should knowthat and they can come to you
about anything, and and feelcomfortable to do that.
Yes, absolutely.
One of the thingsI'd love to hear you guys
elaborate on a little bitis something that comes up,
(24:24):
we hear about ita lot of covenant eyes,
from parents, from priests,from clergy.
And it's that linebetween making sure
that they arewell informed in a way
that's appropriate to their ageand guarding their innocence.
So what do you think is that?
And by the way,I'd love to feel free to draw
from your experienceboth as parents
as well as educators,youth ministers, what have you.
(24:45):
What do you think that line isbetween like, they're informed,
but they're still innocent?
If that question makes sense,or how do we, you know,
keep them properly informedwhile still guarding
their innocence?
Because I feel like some peoplewould equate as soon as
they learn about even if theyhear the word pornography,
they've lost their innocenceright there
or heard the word sex.
(25:07):
They've lost their innocenceright there.
I don't know that that's true.
But tell me,how would you approach
that line? Or, you know,even talk about the distinction
between being properlyinformed or losing.
Yeah.
I mean, and I wouldcounter that,
that there are parents out therewho are very fear based.
They think, like,if we even tell
girls about their bodiesand their cycles, like,
oh my gosh, they're going tobe sexually active
(25:28):
and they're going to I'm like,that's the two different things.
Like knowing about your body,being educated about your body
is completely differentthan being a manipulator
who manipulates that informationand then goes, have sex.
Like that'stwo different things.
But there are people out therewho are so afraid
that if I share this informationwith my children, it's going to
ruin their innocence.
But like, even when we've talkedto our kids about pornography,
it's like it's I like again,good pictures, bad pictures.
(25:51):
What is the difference?
And then you willdefinitely recognize, like when
your kids start askingcertain questions like, well,
how does that happen?
I mean, Iwhen I was pregnant with
our last baby, and I think John,our little boy, was five
at the time, he was like,how does the baby come out?
And I mean, and justvery matter of factly
scientifically was like,well, the right now
(26:11):
the baby's in my uterusand is going to come out
of my birth canal,out of my vagina.
And he's like, okay, you know?
And so it's likewhen we don't ascribe
shame to somethingthey don't ascribe
shame to something.
But if we get all frazzled,they see like, oh, I parent,
I guess there's something badabout this.
So even even with my daughtersand they're approaching
this age, we are going to havethe conversation.
(26:34):
This is I mean, this is justkind of the the funny part is,
you know, when you'rehomeschooling,
you can kind of waittill maybe about 10 to
13 to really talk about,like the mechanics of sex.
And I think it'salways going to shock children.
But we, you know,we have friends
that told their kidsand they were like,
oh, thank God.
They had like five kids.
I'm like, oh, thank Godyou've only had to do that
(26:54):
five times, you know?
So I think it always is a littlebit of a shock.
But I'm trying to prep my kidsby even just talking about, hey,
in the, in the,in the mammal world,
this is you always needlike what you females have.
Females always haveeggs and male always have sperm
like or seed.
You know, likeeven when we've done, like when
(27:14):
we did pollination with ourwe had pumpkins like years ago
and I was like, hey, look,there's a male flower.
And the male flower has pollenand we need to pollinate
the female flower.
So like, even in those thingsthat kids are learning,
oh, okay,there's male and female
and this is what you needto make new life.
So as often as we can makethose connections
in their brains building upto this conversation
(27:36):
of in, in human lifeand in reproduction
within plants when it comesto animals.
And this is how things work.
And then, yes,I think they might be a little
shocked at themechanics of it all.
Like when you actually say,this is how it works.
They're like,oh gosh, like that.
Okay, well, thank God again,you've only had to do that
five times.
But and then and then as theyget a little older
(27:59):
and this is whyI feel like Doctor Julia's
books are so good because shekind of gives you
an age appropriate,like as they get older,
into their teenage years,then you start
talking about, well,what happens along with sex,
the pleasure part and yourwhat's happening
in your hormonesand in your cycle that's going
to affect this.
Like because at that pointthey may not understand
like, oh, the reasonpeople have sex is because it's
(28:19):
pleasurable.
They may notunderstand that. Yet.
You don't have todivulge that yet.
So but I will say by the timehere's the thing I always tell
people is like by the timethey're in high school,
especially if theyare in school, if you have not
had these conversationsby the time
they're in high school,it's too late.
It is way too late.
Like, I know so many parentswho send their kids
(28:40):
to Catholic schoolswho their kids
are in high schooland they think, oh, well,
I haven't had a talk.
I'm like, oh, it's too late.
Their friendsare already telling them
everything.
In fact, their friends arealready having sex
and they're alreadylooking at porn, maybe
shoving an interface.
But you are already now.
Now, granted,it's never too late to have
these conversations,and I feel like
a lot of the good advice isif you have not
had these conversationsas a parent, you bring it up
to your kid and say, hey,you know, I'm sorry
(29:00):
we never talked about thisand I want you to always
feel comfortable with me.
I know we should have hadthis conversation earlier,
but if you if for anyparents out there who their kids
are in school, in high schooland have not had these talks,
it is your friend.
Guess what?
Their friends are educating themeasily.
No doubt about it.
Their friends are educating themor porn is educating them.
Like this.
This is this is the thingis like by high school,
(29:22):
these conversationsneed to be had, especially if
they're in school. But,yeah, it's like always wanting
to have that open, open lineof communication.
Anything elsegoing on your mind?
Oh, there's a lot goingin my mind.
Shame.
You know, like that.
What I said earlierabout knowing ourselves and, and
(29:43):
our own resistance, if we areas parents, are resisting
having the conversationwith our kids, it's
like, well, why?
And maybe it's because thereis some shame
that I carry with it.
Maybe there'sI never had the talk myself.
I was never given it.
I have no idea how to do this.
Be not afraid.
Like I wish my parents had trieda little bit
more than just signingthe fifth grade waiver
(30:06):
to like they watched.
Show me a video and give me astick of deodorant.
And apparently I knowall I need to know with the VHS.
Yeah.
You're changing body.
Yeah, like I wish.
Yeah, I wish they had.
As awkward as it may have been,I wish there was an attempt,
because even just that.
Like I care about you enough toawkwardly stumble through this.
(30:27):
Because if we don't,the world is happy
to educate our kids for us,and not necessarily
in a life giving vision of lovethat were made for.
Yeah, that's so trueand such good wisdom.
I we run into parentsall the time that,
you know, maybe didn't know howto have these conversations.
So they waited.
And then when high school hits,you know, their child
(30:49):
has already been exposedand now they're
trying to backpedaland figure out, oh my gosh, now
what do I do?
And and there are still thingsyou can do.
And I love thatyou guys talked about
just going to your childand being honest, like,
hey, I, I screwed up.
I should have talked to youabout this sooner,
but I'm here for you.
And you know, I'm learningand I'm sorry.
I mean, there'sso much to be said
for being humbleabout our mistakes.
(31:11):
Let's let's kind of pivot alittle bit and talk,
a little bit about some of the,the work that you guys do
in your podcastand your writings and Ascension
talk to our listeners about,you know, what they can expect
if they gocheck out your content,
what they can hope to gleanand where do they find
all the content?
Yeah.
So we we talk a lot about PopeJohn Paul theology, the body.
(31:33):
That's where we met.
That was hugein our formation of,
you know, we all havewe were made in the image
and likeness of God who is love.
And we all desireto love and to be loved.
And so how do we love properly?
And really,Christ is the answer of
he gives us this modelof sacrificial,
self-giving love.
He is, it says in Scripture,we love because he
(31:55):
first loved us like we only knowhow to love because of how
we were shown what true love is.
And so when we talkto young people
when it comes to datingand relationships or whatever,
what it means to love,or even when we talk to parents
or married couples,Christ is always the model.
And that Pope John Paul,one of his
(32:15):
most beautiful writings,was before theology.
The body.
He wrote a book called Loveand Responsibility,
and this to me was such a lifechanging game changer in the way
I looked at people when he saidthat the opposite of love is use
that in the future.
And he wrote this in the 1960s.
He says in the futurewe are going to use
people as objects of pleasureinstead of loving them
(32:37):
as persons.
And really,so the opposite of love
is to use someone as an object.
And we see thiswith pornography,
but we even see thishow we are taught to view
the human person.
And so for me, it was like,man, I have to
my mind has to change.
And this is like Romans 12.
It's like we offer upyour bodies
as a living sacrifice,and we have to renew our mind
(32:58):
that even when we lookat people, male and female,
my goal is not to use themfor my own physical
or emotional pleasure.
My goal is tolove them to heaven.
And so even withwhat was beautiful about
even when I met Bobby, my job,that kind of detachment
like that, he wasn't free tobe mine, you know, like,
(33:19):
it was kind of like, oh my gosh.
Okay, so I have to be touched.
I have to love this man firstand foremost
as my brother in Christ.
My goal is to get him to heaven.
Yes, he is extremely goodlooking and attractive,
but my first goal is to.
Yes, it's for the beard.
You know, my first goal iswhen I look at him
is not to look at himas an object for my pleasure,
but to look at himas my brother in Christ,
(33:39):
who I love, who I wantto get to heaven.
And so every relationship I tellI talk to this about
two young people, like inour relationships with people
of the opposite sex or meetingthe same sex, like
do we use peoplefor our own pleasure
or do we actually love them?
Do we actually want their good?
Do we actually want themto get to heaven?
And how do we show that?
Or or am I using people?
(34:00):
Am I treating my guy friendsas stand in boyfriend?
Am I using thembecause I am needy
or I have these emotional gapsI need to feel, or do
I actually love them and I wantto be front like truly have this
holy relationship where my goalis to bring them
closer to the Lord.
So I think it's a complete shiftin how we view the world
(34:21):
and how we view people.
When when we look at itthrough that lens of
the opposite of loveis actually to use.
Yeah.
So on YouTube, under AscensionPresents, you're
going to have a year'sworth of videos we've done where
there's reallythe through line across
a whole bunchof different topics John Paul
(34:43):
the second and his presentationof the gospel, the goodness of
our human bodies, the goodnessof our flesh.
Jesus took on fleshin the incarnation,
like the theology of the body,is really kind of
the lens throughso many of our videos,
our personal website,Jackie and bobby.com
has the books we've written.
We love speaking in personlike digital ministries.
(35:06):
Such a gift.
There's nothing like speaking infront of people like flesh
and blood people.
And so we still love travelingand doing that. But, we've.
Jackie loves relationshipsand dating and and the stuff,
and I, I like philosophyand video games and all sorts
of other likeoff the beaten path.
But I love what we'remade for love.
(35:27):
So the datingthe relationship stuff is that
is the evergreen.
We're all looking for love.
And so and especiallywith chastity and in fact, love
and responsibility.
John Paul the second beforehe was the pope.
In that book he wrote,chastity is probably going to be
the word most in needof rehabilitation
(35:49):
in the century to come,because it's just been taught
is a repressive no.
And especially in the topicof pornography, it's like
it can't just be a wholebunch of no's and white
knuckling it.
There has to be ayes to something better.
There has to be a yesto loving as I was made for.
So chastity isnot this repressive? No.
(36:10):
The Catechism saysit is the integration
of our our heartsfor body and soul with sin
as as torn apart.
It's bringing backtogether so I can love
as as I made for. Yeah.
And that sin ruptures usright when we sin.
And our really like our bodieswant one thing and our souls
want another.
I mean, we've all hadthis experience of sin where,
(36:31):
our bodies are like,oh, I really want to do it.
And your soul's like,nope, you shouldn't do it
like your conscience,you know, like, I shouldn't
do this for your body, like,but I want it.
And so, like, that's the ruptureof sin.
Whereas when we are integrated,we are on the same page.
And that's a whole journeythat's going to take a lifetime.
And so the deeper questionsalways are to ask, like,
(36:51):
why am I doing this?
Why do I seek this?
Whether it's pornography,whether it's
certain relationships,whether it's food.
I mean, whatever relationshipwe have with anything like it,
the question is,why do I do this?
And that's the alwaysthe deeper is going.
The Lord wants us to go deeper.
The Lord wants to heal usand so with Gpt2,
I think for Bobby now,a huge part was knowing
like our desires, especially oursexual desires, aren't bad.
(37:13):
In fact, they're good.
They were created by the Lord.
They were created for a purpose.
They were createdfor life giving love.
Ultimately, when it comes,especially in marriage,
in the generationprocreation of children,
our desires have a purposeand our desires specifically
through theology.
By the way we meant to be gift.
We are meant to bea gift of self.
(37:34):
And he said and got him.
It spurs.
Pope John Paul brought this lineto Vatican two.
It's like gaudium.
It says 24.
It says you canonly find yourself.
And becoming a sinceregift of self, right?
We can onlytruly know who we are
when we become a gift.
And so, we are allcalled to that, whether we are
single, celibate,whether we are married,
we're called to be a giftand to love as Christ
(37:56):
loved and truly to be the handsand feet of Christ
like in marriage, like Bobby is.
That's how I experienced Jesusso profoundly
is through my spouse.
He shows me what love is andvice versa.
And then with our children,we are showing our children
God's love when we lovelike Christ.
So even on our own podcast,which is conversations
(38:17):
with Jackie Bobby,we love asking people
their testimonies,their stories.
You know how it is God shownshowing them
his love in their lives.
So that's kind of for us.
It's always like we wantwe want people to know
that God loves themand we want them to know,
like, how do we do that?
Like, how do we livelife as a human?
How how do we be holyand still be joyful and live
(38:40):
life to the fullest?
Christ calls us to live.
And so how dolike we want people
to know what love is?
And then how do we do that?
Like how do we live that out?
And that's beautiful.
One of the things that,when you, talked about
making a gift of yourself,I thought of, the the pastor
of the Byzantine churchthat I go to
who's also an expert on,theology of the body.
(39:02):
And he saidsomething interesting.
One day he said, yes, I'mgoing to say this as a priest,
and you're goingto be shocked by it.
Do not pray for an increasein vocations, he said.
Pray for the fire to come downand ignite us all.
Pray for a fertile soilthat will inspire all of us,
(39:22):
all of us to want to makea gift of ourselves.
And when that is in place,we'll know what vocation
to do that in.
So if you're ever lost in life,you have one thing make it
how to make a gift of yourself.
And how do weultimately do that?
Through Christianity,through being followers
of Jesus?
(39:42):
So, I'm so glad thatyou guys are out there
spreading that message,preaching that,
teaching that to others.
Do you guys have any,exciting projects
coming up next, eitherwith your podcast or any,
anything you guys got going on?
And then, then number two,what's one final piece of advice
you might, leave us with,about striving
(40:03):
to live with integrityin your faith as well as online?
Yeah, this this year hasbeen a big year with,
book releases.
I think that'sprobably the most book.
So I had a book come out calledMemorize Scripture, and I have
to go with my podcast.
And then Bobby had a bookcome out about philosophy,
and then you haveanother book coming up.
And I and it looks likeI'm way busier than I am.
(40:24):
They've been in the pipeline,a different interval,
like different speeds,and they're
all converging. Yeah.
I there's a bookthis summer with a name.
Maria.
Press on for Sadie.
Pierre.
Giorgio for Sadie.
Like an eight daypersonal retreat
with him as your guide.
That'll be in July.
And God is our booking agent.
This is.
We say, so when it comes tospeaking in ministry.
(40:46):
And what's next?
You'll have to ask him.
We're just trying to say yes.
In the season we're into the best of our ability.
Yeah. Summer.
I mean, we have a niceafter lent.
Lent was crazy, and it was a lota lot of travel, a lot of parish
missions, a lot of stuff.
This month is prettyawesome and chill.
And then summer comes upwhere we have a lot
of conferences.
But yeah, it'sjust kind of always
this wave that goeswith the school year.
(41:09):
Any, any life advice that,that you want to leave with.
People life advice.
As, like a Catholic like me.
No pressure.
Like something that youyou feel like you're constantly
being a broken recordabout people.
You you can't give what youdon't have.
I'll steal this line from DoctorGreg Pitaro, who's the head of
(41:29):
Catholic psych,who I'm sure took it
from someone else. But,from Peter Cray for someone.
But we, we cannot be the enginesof our own healing
or the healing of our families.
We have to let.
We have to be loved.
And we can't.
Will that. Yeah.
There's nothing to earn.
You just receive it.
(41:50):
And so much of, like,why people seek out porn
or seek out other unhealthycoping mechanisms is because
I don't feel loved.
Like underneath itall, I'm stressed,
I'm lonely, I'm tired.
Yes, but I'm turning to thiscoping mechanism because I don't
feel loved.
Just as I am.
And it's there's, there'sI have to be perfect or I've got
to fix myself.
(42:10):
Or it's like, just letyourself be loved as you are
and.
And how people do that.
To stop trying.
Like, we complicate itand we think I
have to be perfect,or I think I have to get
all my ducks in a row and it's.
Or have to do all these thingsto earn God's love.
Yeah.
(42:30):
It's like he already loves you.
Like, while we werestill sinners,
Christ died for us.
So he loves youin your deepest sin,
just as muchas when you walk out
of the confessional.
Yeah.
And when we startto actually receive it,
not just hear, not just spit itback for a test.
God loves me.
When you actually startallowing that to go deep,
(42:51):
then it's like the thestuff, the temptations,
it starts to lose its power.
It starts to lose its allure.
It's like, I don't want tosettle for that.
And and I want other people,I want my family,
I want my childrento know that too.
That you're lovedjust as you are, not what you
get on the test, not how goodyou are in sports.
(43:11):
But we can't give it.
We don't have.
So it's like, do I know thatand believe that that I'm loved.
Period. Full stop.
Yeah.
One of my one of ourfavorite books.
I sell more of his booksthan any of our own is,
doctor Bob shoots be healed.
It's such a great book for that.
Like, again, to walk through,allowing the Lord to love you
and to heal youand to go to those.
Because that, again,that was what was life
(43:31):
changing for the two of usis when we were 18.
For me, it was recognizingI have a father
in heaven who loves meso, so much.
A lot of us have a lot offather wounds
and many mother wounds.
And to realize,like we have a father in heaven,
we are his children, his belovedsons, and daughters,
and that we don'thave to earn that.
But that's justthe nature of our
our relationshipwith our Heavenly Father
(43:51):
is how much,how much he loves us.
So when thatseeps in your heart,
it's it's life changing.
It changeshow you see the world.
It changes everything,and then it changes
what you're not.
I'm like, I'm not willing.
I don't want to settlefor the dumpster anymore.
Like, I know I deserve the bestbecause God is my father
and has the best for me.
And all will be well.
(44:11):
The Catechism says thatchastity is a lifelong endeavor,
so to not feel, to not fallto hopelessness.
If I'm fallingagain and again, it's
it's not a total reset.
You're just stumbling upthe mountain.
And the more you bring inother people, the more you bring
in accountability.
Again, Covenant Eyes has blessedmy life and my vocation.
(44:33):
Like I don't knowwhere I'd be without it.
So just how the Lord is, isthere's a lot of bad
stuff on the internet.
There's also alot of beautiful tools
and apostle apps that arethe Lord is raising up
for us to help one another.
Yeah, you're just imaginethat it's building a muscle.
It's working outand working out.
It hurts and it stinksand like it's painful,
but it's the more you doit, there's this like
(44:54):
with virtue, virtue,the more you act
and walk in virtue.
And even though it'srequires sacrifice and it's
going to be difficult to say noto certain things,
you're building a muscleand it gets easier
as it goes. Like that.
Virtue keeps growingand it'll become easier
as it goes on.
Just likeit is with working out.
That's a great analogyand great wisdom
from both of you.
(45:15):
Thank you both Bobby and Jackiefor joining us today.
This has been anamazing conversation.
I know our listenersare going to be truly
blessed by the wisdomand just the stories
that you shared with us today,so we want to
thank you and hopefully,our listeners
can continue to prayfor your ministry
and for your outreachand for your work, and hopefully
you'll havea nice season of rest
(45:36):
during the next month or soso you can get back at it
at the conference.
I know that's exhausting.
So we'll be praying for you.
Thank you guys so much.
Thanks for having.
Us. Yeah, absolutely.
We'll see you.
Oh, thanks so muchfor joining me today
for the Covenant Eyes podcast.
I know our listenersare going to be truly
blessed by this episode.
Your final closing thoughtsfor today?
Well, I'm just grateful to,Jack and Bobby for, joining us.
(45:59):
I'm grateful for, all of the,the work that that you do.
And I share a lot of thepassion with you guys as well
with, theology of the body,with our Catholic faith,
especially with,seeing marriages and families
be well gratefulfor your work in that.
I mean, marriage and family.
That really is the bedrockof civilization.
It was Mother Teresa who said,you know, Calcutta is
(46:21):
at your house.
I was at your backyard.
You know, you, so, I mean,if every one of us
would just go homeand love our family,
the world would reallybe a great place.
Just would the church.
So thanks for your workand teaching us how to do that.
And, and it's an honor for usand for you to to work
alongside you to helpthe world be pure and chaste
(46:41):
as well as holy.
So, we just want to thank you.
And like you said, we'll bepraying for you.
So God bless you.
God bless your five kids.
God blessyour upcoming ministry.
And thank you everyone tofor listening
to this episode of TheCovenant on this podcast.
Hey, everybody, welcome backto the Covenant Eyes podcast.
I'm Karen Potter,one of the hosts
for the Covenant Eyes podcast,and I am joined today by Theo,
who is back in studioto record with us today.
And Theo, you're really excitedabout today's interview.
I know.
I sure am.
Thank you for, as always, forletting me co-host
along with you, Karen.
So we have a couple of,guests here who are very well
(00:29):
known in the Catholic world.
You have likely seen videosof them on Ascension Presents
YouTube channel.
It worked for Word on Fire.
They have our speakers.
Most importantly,they're Catholics.
They're a wonderfulmarried couple, with children.
And, they're here todayto talk with us about,
a wider range of topics.
(00:49):
Bobby and Jackie,angel, Bobby and Jackie,
thanks for joining us today.
And, welcome to The Covenant onthis podcast.
So for those of, for peoplewho might not be familiar
with you guys by chance,just tell us a little bit
about yourselves.
So maybe how you got togetherand how you started,
the great workthat you're doing.
Yeah, I know.
There you go.
So both of us, both of uswere raised Catholic,
(01:13):
but had a real huge conversionsin our faith.
Around 18 at a Steubenvilleconference across the country.
You know, I'm from Californiaand Bobby's from Florida.
And, our journeys werevery different.
But essentially, you know,I was doing ministry
front in collegeand outside of actually,
Bobby was doing Ministry two.
We both love youth ministry.
We both were corps members.
(01:33):
It's funny because at some pointwe could have met,
at this one summer campthat I was at every year, Life
Teen Cove in Georgia.
And Bobby was a corps member,and his group came,
but he could never gobecause he couldn't
get time off of workfor being a lifeguard.
And so we couldhave met earlier.
But the Lord had a planthat we would meet.
Said no.
Yeah, it wasn't time yet.
And so we met in 2011at the Theology
(01:56):
the Body Institutein Pennsylvania.
The only problemwas at the time, the first time
I met Bobby, he was in seminary,and I was like, oh gosh, Lord,
you always take the goodlooking ones like, stop,
please take me to leave some ofthem for us.
So anyway, so we met.
What was cool about that is itreally allowed us
just to be friends and not have,you know, it was just
like allowing meto love my brother in Christ
(02:17):
like he was my brotherin Christ.
I really wantedthe best for him.
And so we had this friendship.
And the next timewe met at theology,
the Body Institutewas about a year
and a half later,and at that point, Bobby was
his discernmenthad changed and he was
we always joke that he was like,all right, Lord, I feel like I'm
called to marriage,but you need to give me a sign
that needs to be loud and blond.
(02:38):
And I'm like, you know, so,so we met and yeah,
it was so funnybecause my heart.
I always wanteda husband who I could do
ministry with, and it just was.
We both have a heartfor for ministry
and for sharing the Lordwith people.
And so we got marriedand we have five kids,
but we still continueto speak together and sometimes
(03:02):
separately, but also togetherabout different topics
like theology, the body andkind of just anything we
now speak from, like high schoolall the way till like to
parish missionswhere people are like
99, you know, so all ages. Yeah.
It's been beautiful to watchthe ministry change
as the years go on.
We never thought we'dget involved in video ministry,
(03:23):
but Jackie had made contactsat Ascension, and they wanted
to build out beyond just fatherMike Schmitz, who we all know
and love.
And so we've been doingvideos for them for a number
of years now.
And, I taught at an all boysCatholic high school
for about ten years, the firstten years of our marriage.
(03:43):
And so the issues of chastity,the the problem of pornography,
very much like, evergreen topicto get into
and even the blessing oflike how our ministries
all continue to build eachother up over time.
I was in seminary and Ihad an on off battle
with pornographyfor a number of years.
(04:05):
And I remember there was a gracebomb moment
in my seminary journeywhere I realized, I,
I just want this out of my life.
If I'm a spiritual fatheror if I'm a biological father,
enough's enough.
And it really was,the accountability
of seeking that outthrough my brother
seminarians nowwho some of whom are my
(04:25):
brother or brother priests,and using covenant Eyes as a
pivotal program to just get thatdigital accountability
in my life so that forthe sake of my vocation,
which I didn't know whatit would be at the time.
So even like howlike the rising tide
lifts all ships.
It's beautiful to see as we'vebecome more seasoned aka old
(04:51):
when I did not haveso much gray hair in my early
YouTube videos.
It's beautiful to seewhat the Lord is doing
and continues to doand how now, like
just the generations coming up,what has taken root
and what is continuing to bless,people around the world
that's incredible.
I love thatyou shared your story
(05:11):
and what a uniquejourney God is.
You know, he is amazing,but he also has a bit of a
sense of humorbecause, you know,
you think you knowwhere your life is going.
And sometimes he directs ussomewhere else,
and it ends up beingthe most beautiful thing
that we never couldhave seen coming.
So I just love that.
Thanks for sharing thatyou guys and your, work.
You talk about everything.
I mean, there really isno subject that you don't cover.
(05:33):
You talk about marriagesand how to build strong,
faith centeredmarriages, parenting.
You talk about cultural issues,you talk about everything.
How are you guysusing all of the topics
that are relevantto people nowadays,
but tying them backto biblical truth?
How are you incorporating thatinto everything you do,
(05:53):
and what kind of study and prepdo you do for that?
I mean, it helps that Bobbyand I both I mean,
even since we were in college,like when I had my conversion,
I just wanted to get my hands onanything I could.
I wanted to learn everythingI could about my faith.
And I started reading the Biblefor the first time,
memorizing scripture.
I started readingthe catechism and,
(06:14):
you know, kind of readingevery Catholic
apologetics and thatthat also went along
with our formationjust in ministry,
which is the experienceof being with people.
And as you journey with peopleand you learn
more stories, you learn,I mean, gosh, the things
I've heard in the last 20 yearsof doing ministry have broken
my heart of like,even when I work
with teenagers or middleschoolers, I'm like, man,
(06:36):
there are things that these kidsno one should ever have
to experience at the age of 12or like like by the age of 16,
there are kids who havehad more trauma
in their life, more.
It's just so even the experienceof ministry that we have walked
with a lot, a lot of youngmen and young women,
and then also, we both loveour Catholic faith.
I mean, Bobbythen was in seminary.
(06:57):
He he got his bachelors.
And I mean, besidesyour bachelor's in English and,
you know, like, we both hadour own, like,
then he got a bachelor'sin philosophy and theology
and a master's in theology.
And so we both love reading.
All of which is super,super practical.
Yeah.
To become the best baristaat the local coffee shop. Right.
English.
Philosophy, theology, history.
(07:17):
You have a minor in history?
Yeah.
I got the bestbarista out there.
So for us, we just we'rewe're big nerds.
I mean, we love reading.
We love our faith.
And so that justkind of went along with
the experiential part ofI talk a lot
about relationships.
And so the more peopleI encountered,
(07:39):
the more young women,the stories that I heard,
I was like, oh my gosh, like,and thank God for Pope
John Paul.
That really gave usthis framework
of theology, the body.
It not only changedour lives, but
it continues to change livesof like learning how
how do we be human? How?
What does it mean to be a human?
What does it mean to loveand love in a proper way?
(08:00):
So for us, when it comesto prepping for videos
and stuff, a lot of the stuffis just stuff
we have learned overthe last 20 years.
And then sometimeswe need to brush up on stuff
or just depending on the,the topic.
It just it just depends,you know.
I think Jackieand I also both love that that
theme of integrationand being human,
(08:22):
because it's not aboutbeing compartmentalized
and segmented.
And to be a person of faithmeans you're saying no
to the rest of life.
Like, I love video games,and I wrote a book about like,
can you be a discipleof video games?
I love hiking and nature.
And the Catholic Churchthis year is Canonizing
(08:42):
two young peoplewho Carlo Akunis
and the first millennialto be declared as saints who
play video games, coded.
I made websites Pierre Giorgiofor somebody who died 100 years
ago, who loves hikingand pulling pranks on friends,
and both young Italianmen who died before
(09:03):
they were married, beforethey were in a vocation proper,
but loved the Lord and said yesto the whole of life.
So I think Jackie andI also come from backgrounds
where maybe we were maybe tooimmersed in the world,
or sports, or entertainment,but also know that to say yes to
Jesus is to also purifyand find the good in a lot of
(09:24):
these things.
Like it's not aboutjust hard no's across the board,
it's about being fully human.
And Jesus transformsthe best of what
we're looking for in a lotof these things.
And this includes things likethe internet, things like video
games, entertainment.
(09:46):
There's a good we're seekingunderneath it.
So even when it comesto chastity
to, to for both of usto have been on an
individual journeyand intellectual
journey, but alsogetting to the heart of
what am I really looking for?
And how am I being calledto love rightly?
Thank you forsharing all of that.
(10:06):
One thing I would love isthe chance to,
ask you, Bobby, is, speaking oneformer seminarian
to another. Actually,how do you feel that the the
do you feel thatthe seminary actually
was a good preparationfor marriage and parenthood?
And if so, and they say it is,right.
(10:26):
And it is nice that, Bobbyand I can both attest
that God gives some of the goodlooking ones back, but,
I would say how,how do you think it prepared you
for marriage and parenthoodand for all the work
you're you're doing now?
Oh, there was a classwe had to take where
the whole first semesterwas active listening.
And I wish every husbandhad to take that class.
(10:47):
I'd be amazed.
That they called itpastoral counseling.
Mandatory.
Yeah.
So we thoughtwe were going to learn
how to fix people now.
But you got to imagine a roomfull of 30 plus guys, all ages,
being taught how to listenand how frustrating that was.
But the whole dynamic ofwe can't fix people.
You show up, you listen,you be attentive,
(11:10):
and you can helpdirect and guide.
But also a person is not lookingto be fixed.
They're looking to beheard in a company.
So there is there was so muchin my seminary years
of getting over myselfand your four majors
and your teachers, and you'rejust getting stretched.
You're getting evaluated,which is not fun.
(11:31):
Like not just your grades.
Like you as a manare getting evaluated.
And you may think you're awesomeand you're God's
gift to the church.
And they're like, yeah,we see some room for growth.
And that's not alwaysfun to receive.
So totally like,I wish every man
could have some kind of seminarylike boot
camp of that time away,giving that to the Lord
(11:55):
and trusting yourself,going deep not just like surface
level band aid solutionsto your problems, but let's get
let's get to the rootsof some of these wounds
and problematic behaviorsso that you're not bringing them
into a marriage.
I thank you for sharing that.
I just wanted to talk about thatbecause, you know,
all of us have, a past,and that can consist of
(12:18):
just thinking life was goingto turn out one way
and having to turn out another,or even our own woundedness
or bad choices we've made.
But, a lot of times we see thatit all works for good,
and there's oftenso much that we can take from it
that benefits our life now.
And so this is justif you got any
if there's any young menlistening like, you know,
(12:40):
give it a try,whatever, whatever you, wherever
you ultimately endup, everything you've done
leading up to that point,well, you'll find
plenty of thingsthat will benefit you,
even if it's only the mistakes.
And be not afraid,because I think there's the lie
placed there by the evilone that the Lord
wants to take from us.
He wants to make us into boringstatues.
(13:01):
He wants to suckthe life out of us.
He doesn't knowour hearts like we do.
It's like he knows our heartsbetter than we know ourselves.
And you're not missing any time.
Like you're not goingto miss your vocation.
You're not going tolose time by giving
time to the Lord.
And whether that'smissionary activity,
whether that is time discerningthe priesthood or just
(13:24):
being single in the worldto not grass.
And we'll talk a little bitabout this, like how the culture
we're taughtto grasp pornography
naturally teaches us toI take what I want,
when I want it, like that'swhat it's training us for.
So we have to actively workagainst that
to surrender and say,Lord, your ways better
help me to be patientand you transform me and
(13:49):
my stubborn heart.
Yeah, and I'm grateful.
I mean, as a wife,I'm so grateful for those years
he had in seminary.
And, I mean, I jokinglyalways said, it's like, Lord,
if I could be a nun, but I'm notcalled to be a nun
because I just startedbeing a sister. And, you know,
like, I reallycould pray all day
and I go to adorationall the time, go to daily mass.
I'm like, if I could be a nun,but I'm not called to be a nun.
I need a guywho could be a priest
(14:09):
that's not calledto be a priest.
And here comes Bobby.
But I'm gratefulfor those years again.
I'm grateful he got.
It was those yearsthat he routed pornography
out of his lifebefore we even met.
Like that was.
That's such a gift.
And then. Yeah.
And then also just the growththat he had in information
and in therapy, like,it just brought us to a place.
(14:30):
And the classeshe took on active listening. You
got what?
What would you say?
Just I'm very I'm very gratefulfor that time of formation
that I wish.
I wish every Catholicman or woman like,
had some greatyears of formation.
You just said, how do you behuman again?
How I spend time discerningreligious life, too.
That's that's good.
That's great.
(14:51):
Kudos to you, Bobby,for your ability to kick the
pornography habit while you werein the seminary.
I couldn't,it took after that, but,
you were able to.
So kudos to you, my friend.
Absolutely.
Well, with that,I want to kind of
pivot our conversationbecause you guys mentioned
you have five children,which that is amazing.
And certainly with children,you understand that the digital
(15:12):
landscape out therecertainly is impacting parents
and children alike.
So talk to us a little bitabout some wisdom that you guys
have gleaned over the yearsof raising your children
and how to navigate technology.
And where does that boundariesand what things you're kind of
installing in your familyto keep your kids safe
and healthy online?
(15:32):
Yeah.
So it startsat a really young age
in the sense of evenjust affirming the goodness
of their body.
So like,we want our kids to know
their bodies are good, like whattheir bodies are for.
So even when they're little,I mean, calling their body parts
by the right names when they'rein the bathtub or like,
you know, kidsplay with themselves, okay?
We don't playwith our penis or vagina
(15:52):
because they'renot a toy, you know?
So like, again, they'rethey start learning
from a young age what theirbody parts are,
what they're for.
And a very non shame,non shame based way.
Like we want them to knowtheir bodies are good.
And so preparing them forI mean so like even the talk
like the talkis a bunch of talks
like leading up to thatabout their bodies.
(16:13):
And gosh I mean we've alreadytalked about like the difference
between men and women are likethey watched
we watched Spider-Verse.
It was into the Spider-Verseand that the word puberty
and they're like,what's puberty?
And I was like, well,when someone becomes
a boy, becomes a manor girl becomes a woman,
and then, you know, you justflesh out things as they ask.
They're asking questions.
So stuff like that.
So now when itcomes to technology,
(16:36):
we, I mean, with ourwith our youngest,
we were very or sorrywith our oldest,
we were very likeno screens before too.
And now now that you havewhen you have five kids
and your oldestare playing Mario
Kart, you know, and thenthe youngest is like,
these are not even two year old.
He's like Mario Kart agelike you think it's so anyways.
(16:57):
But we do have specific timesof like we homeschool
and then when I'm getting dinnerready, that's like their
their TV time.
And then we have like Tuesdaysand Thursdays and like family
video game night. Right.
So because when we, we got,we received the switch
from Bobby's parents,we were like, okay,
we need rules around this.
Like, this is notjust you're going to go play.
(17:18):
Our kids do not havetheir own iPads.
Like the kids can playcertain games on our phones,
like word scapes or whatever,just certain things.
They are not allowedto go on YouTube by themselves.
And what's good is I've hadthis conversation.
So our two oldest are girls,and they are
ten and a half and nine,and I've already
I've read the books,the good pictures,
(17:39):
bad pictures with them.
And so they know,you know, like, if I ever see
anything into mom, dad.
And, but they'rereally good together
because they also, I think ifanything like that happened,
the other one would be like, oh,you know, they would, they would
say something.
So we have rulesaround technology.
The only time that we have likea no holds barred iPad or movie
time or screentime is like literally
(18:00):
when we're on a planeor when we are on a car ride,
like a really long carride is the only time
that we're like, all right,here's another movie.
We can watch a movie.
But even then, those are movieswe've watched.
And so my kids also knowwhen it comes to new movies,
they come to me and say, mom,can we watch this movie?
And I will Google the movieand I will like,
look at parent reviews.
I will also Googlelike LGBT with it because I want
(18:20):
to see like, what are what'sin these movies and are they
trying to show.
And there have been timesI've told my kids like,
I'm sorry, you can't watch this.
Why?
Because they're tryingto tell you that something
is really, really goodwhen it's not like this is.
And they're doing itto children.
This is not adults like thisis they're trying
to insert in there or, you know,sexual themes
or whatever they'redoing or bad words.
(18:42):
And so my kids and I, theespecially the older ones, once
they get to the age of reason,you know, which is 7 or 8,
man, we've had somegreat conversations
about just differenttopics like, hey, mom, like,
why did that guysay he had a boyfriend
or a husband and,you know, just talking
about the church's teaching,what we believe
about that, but alsohow do we love people like even
(19:03):
who do struggle withsame sex attraction?
How do we lovepeople who do struggle
with their identityand don't know if they're
male or female?
So I love the, there, thereis this book that I,
the girl was like,there's a difference
between our positionas a church.
Like, what's our position?
What do we believeand what's our posture
towards peoplewho struggle with that
or who deal with that.
And so like, I want our kidsknow, like, here's
(19:24):
what we believe as Catholics,but here's also
how we treat people.
We love peoplewherever they are.
And we always wantto bring people to Christ.
So yeah, there'sa lot of different, like, things
that we are doing and yetjust constant conversations.
So our kids don't, thinkthat their bodies are bad or
that sex is bad.
So when we do havethese conversations, you know,
they don't think like,Mom and Dad are ashamed
(19:46):
of all this stuff.
One of our favorite booksis Unwanted by Jay Stringer.
And and in that book he talksabout how the difference
between rigid families and thendisengaged families
and the amount of kidsfrom those kind of families
who do end up looking at porn.
And again, when you haveeither extreme,
when you have reallyrigid families who are like,
sex is bad, don't do it.
(20:06):
The very puritan is theis to kind of culture.
And then you have the very laxlike they don't
talk to you at all.
They're very disengaged.
Mom and dad don'ttalk to you at all.
And you're left to do thingsby yourself.
Man, those outcomesare not good.
It was like between 77%and 87% of those kids ended up
looking at versuswhen you actually have
conversations with yourcan you very
open with your children,and they know that they can come
(20:29):
to mom and dad about anything.
They can ask about anything.
There's nothing off limits.
They can ask questionsabout their bodies.
They can because which we do.
Like, if anything,I'm like, hey, let me know if
there's anything going on here.
They're like, come talk to momand I'll help you, you know,
so that openline of communication is super,
super important.
And then even with technology,I mean, do you want to add
(20:51):
anything else like that?
We do know some families havelike home, like internet.
Software. Yeah.
Like house wide blockersand stuff like that.
We don't we just arevery like mindful
of what they're watchingand keeping that, like knowing
like you're only playingat certain times and.
(21:14):
There's only one TV.
I mean.
We only have one.
We have one TV in the house.
They're not allowedon, you know, an iPad
or our phones free reign.
And knowing too, like it'sthe warmth and the empathy
like that, we're trying to modelthat, that it's not the body
is something to be ashamed of.
And even like watchingkids are always watching
their parents reactions.
(21:35):
And if I bring something upand we get super uncomfortable,
if we get superdon't talk about this,
then they're hearing, well,I can't talk to Mom
or dad about this topic.
I've got to go to my friends.
I've got to go toto cousins or elsewhere.
So it's also do and doingthe work of like where does
where do I need healingand where do I need
to be purifiedand where do I need
(21:57):
to have this visionof the goodness of the body?
How like the dangers that areout there and protecting my
family, not necessarilysheltering them for their
entire childhood because I thinkthere are like age appropriate
conversations to be hadof the dangers
that are out there, but alsoguarding their innocence
(22:19):
as long as possible,which is is a lot.
It's tiring to be vigilant, and.
I will say this is going to bemassively different between if
you homeschool or if your kidsgo to school, because if
your kids are in school,these conversations
need to happen way earlier,because I can't tell you
the amount of parentswho have told me, oh yeah, my
(22:39):
kid was on the busand they're ten,
and they had pornshoved in their face
on someone else's phone.
Like when your kidsgo to school, these
you you have tohave conversations super early
versus like, our kidsare homeschooled.
We know the technologythey have.
Their most of their friendswho are also homeschooled
do not have phones like so.
They don't have the accessto that kind of stuff.
(23:00):
And then I'm talkingto the moms of like, what?
Have you talked toyour kids about?
Something like,what are the talks you've had?
You know, so it's it'sgoing to be hugely different
if your kids are in school.
Those conversationsneed to happen so much earlier
when it comes to pornography,when it comes to, even even sex,
like, again, as a parent,you want those conversations
(23:21):
to come from you first.
And so often we never receivethose conversations
from our parents.
So a lot of times people don'tfeel equipped.
One of the two of the best booksthat you could get about
these topics are DoctorJulia Sandusky.
Her two books areHow to Talk to Your Kids
about Sex and How to Talkto Your Teens.
Or start, I think itstart talking to your
kids about sexand how to or start
(23:42):
talking to your teens about sex.
And it goes through puberty.
It goes through pornography.
It goes through everythingin a Catholic lens.
And they're really,really, really good.
She even givesyou like the scripts,
like when you don't knowhow to say things she like,
literally gives you.
Here are scriptsthat you can say.
And the main point isthe parents should always
be the primary sourceof all information.
(24:04):
The parent should be the experton these topics.
Their friendsshould not be the expert
like you as a parentshould be the expert.
Your kids should knowthat and they can come to you
about anything, and and feelcomfortable to do that.
Yes, absolutely.
One of the thingsI'd love to hear you guys
elaborate on a little bitis something that comes up,
(24:24):
we hear about ita lot of covenant eyes,
from parents, from priests,from clergy.
And it's that linebetween making sure
that they arewell informed in a way
that's appropriate to their ageand guarding their innocence.
So what do you think is that?
And by the way,I'd love to feel free to draw
from your experienceboth as parents
as well as educators,youth ministers, what have you.
(24:45):
What do you think that line isbetween like, they're informed,
but they're still innocent?
If that question makes sense,or how do we, you know,
keep them properly informedwhile still guarding
their innocence?
Because I feel like some peoplewould equate as soon as
they learn about even if theyhear the word pornography,
they've lost their innocenceright there
or heard the word sex.
(25:07):
They've lost their innocenceright there.
I don't know that that's true.
But tell me,how would you approach
that line? Or, you know,even talk about the distinction
between being properlyinformed or losing.
Yeah.
I mean, and I wouldcounter that,
that there are parents out therewho are very fear based.
They think, like,if we even tell
girls about their bodiesand their cycles, like,
oh my gosh, they're going tobe sexually active
(25:28):
and they're going to I'm like,that's the two different things.
Like knowing about your body,being educated about your body
is completely differentthan being a manipulator
who manipulates that informationand then goes, have sex.
Like that'stwo different things.
But there are people out therewho are so afraid
that if I share this informationwith my children, it's going to
ruin their innocence.
But like, even when we've talkedto our kids about pornography,
it's like it's I like again,good pictures, bad pictures.
(25:51):
What is the difference?
And then you willdefinitely recognize, like when
your kids start askingcertain questions like, well,
how does that happen?
I mean, Iwhen I was pregnant with
our last baby, and I think John,our little boy, was five
at the time, he was like,how does the baby come out?
And I mean, and justvery matter of factly
scientifically was like,well, the right now
(26:11):
the baby's in my uterusand is going to come out
of my birth canal,out of my vagina.
And he's like, okay, you know?
And so it's likewhen we don't ascribe
shame to somethingthey don't ascribe
shame to something.
But if we get all frazzled,they see like, oh, I parent,
I guess there's something badabout this.
So even even with my daughtersand they're approaching
this age, we are going to havethe conversation.
(26:34):
This is I mean, this is justkind of the the funny part is,
you know, when you'rehomeschooling,
you can kind of waittill maybe about 10 to
13 to really talk about,like the mechanics of sex.
And I think it'salways going to shock children.
But we, you know,we have friends
that told their kidsand they were like,
oh, thank God.
They had like five kids.
I'm like, oh, thank Godyou've only had to do that
(26:54):
five times, you know?
So I think it always is a littlebit of a shock.
But I'm trying to prep my kidsby even just talking about, hey,
in the, in the,in the mammal world,
this is you always needlike what you females have.
Females always haveeggs and male always have sperm
like or seed.
You know, likeeven when we've done, like when
(27:14):
we did pollination with ourwe had pumpkins like years ago
and I was like, hey, look,there's a male flower.
And the male flower has pollenand we need to pollinate
the female flower.
So like, even in those thingsthat kids are learning,
oh, okay,there's male and female
and this is what you needto make new life.
So as often as we can makethose connections
in their brains building upto this conversation
(27:36):
of in, in human lifeand in reproduction
within plants when it comesto animals.
And this is how things work.
And then, yes,I think they might be a little
shocked at themechanics of it all.
Like when you actually say,this is how it works.
They're like,oh gosh, like that.
Okay, well, thank God again,you've only had to do that
five times.
But and then and then as theyget a little older
(27:59):
and this is whyI feel like Doctor Julia's
books are so good because shekind of gives you
an age appropriate,like as they get older,
into their teenage years,then you start
talking about, well,what happens along with sex,
the pleasure part and yourwhat's happening
in your hormonesand in your cycle that's going
to affect this.
Like because at that pointthey may not understand
like, oh, the reasonpeople have sex is because it's
(28:19):
pleasurable.
They may notunderstand that. Yet.
You don't have todivulge that yet.
So but I will say by the timehere's the thing I always tell
people is like by the timethey're in high school,
especially if theyare in school, if you have not
had these conversationsby the time
they're in high school,it's too late.
It is way too late.
Like, I know so many parentswho send their kids
(28:40):
to Catholic schoolswho their kids
are in high schooland they think, oh, well,
I haven't had a talk.
I'm like, oh, it's too late.
Their friendsare already telling them
everything.
In fact, their friends arealready having sex
and they're alreadylooking at porn, maybe
shoving an interface.
But you are already now.
Now, granted,it's never too late to have
these conversations,and I feel like
a lot of the good advice isif you have not
had these conversationsas a parent, you bring it up
to your kid and say, hey,you know, I'm sorry
(29:00):
we never talked about thisand I want you to always
feel comfortable with me.
I know we should have hadthis conversation earlier,
but if you if for anyparents out there who their kids
are in school, in high schooland have not had these talks,
it is your friend.
Guess what?
Their friends are educating themeasily.
No doubt about it.
Their friends are educating themor porn is educating them.
Like this.
This is this is the thingis like by high school,
(29:22):
these conversationsneed to be had, especially if
they're in school. But,yeah, it's like always wanting
to have that open, open lineof communication.
Anything elsegoing on your mind?
Oh, there's a lot goingin my mind.
Shame.
You know, like that.
What I said earlierabout knowing ourselves and, and
(29:43):
our own resistance, if we areas parents, are resisting
having the conversationwith our kids, it's
like, well, why?
And maybe it's because thereis some shame
that I carry with it.
Maybe there'sI never had the talk myself.
I was never given it.
I have no idea how to do this.
Be not afraid.
Like I wish my parents had trieda little bit
more than just signingthe fifth grade waiver
(30:06):
to like they watched.
Show me a video and give me astick of deodorant.
And apparently I knowall I need to know with the VHS.
Yeah.
You're changing body.
Yeah, like I wish.
Yeah, I wish they had.
As awkward as it may have been,I wish there was an attempt,
because even just that.
Like I care about you enough toawkwardly stumble through this.
(30:27):
Because if we don't,the world is happy
to educate our kids for us,and not necessarily
in a life giving vision of lovethat were made for.
Yeah, that's so trueand such good wisdom.
I we run into parentsall the time that,
you know, maybe didn't know howto have these conversations.
So they waited.
And then when high school hits,you know, their child
(30:49):
has already been exposedand now they're
trying to backpedaland figure out, oh my gosh, now
what do I do?
And and there are still thingsyou can do.
And I love thatyou guys talked about
just going to your childand being honest, like,
hey, I, I screwed up.
I should have talked to youabout this sooner,
but I'm here for you.
And you know, I'm learningand I'm sorry.
I mean, there'sso much to be said
for being humbleabout our mistakes.
(31:11):
Let's let's kind of pivot alittle bit and talk,
a little bit about some of the,the work that you guys do
in your podcastand your writings and Ascension
talk to our listeners about,you know, what they can expect
if they gocheck out your content,
what they can hope to gleanand where do they find
all the content?
Yeah.
So we we talk a lot about PopeJohn Paul theology, the body.
(31:33):
That's where we met.
That was hugein our formation of,
you know, we all havewe were made in the image
and likeness of God who is love.
And we all desireto love and to be loved.
And so how do we love properly?
And really,Christ is the answer of
he gives us this modelof sacrificial,
self-giving love.
He is, it says in Scripture,we love because he
(31:55):
first loved us like we only knowhow to love because of how
we were shown what true love is.
And so when we talkto young people
when it comes to datingand relationships or whatever,
what it means to love,or even when we talk to parents
or married couples,Christ is always the model.
And that Pope John Paul,one of his
(32:15):
most beautiful writings,was before theology.
The body.
He wrote a book called Loveand Responsibility,
and this to me was such a lifechanging game changer in the way
I looked at people when he saidthat the opposite of love is use
that in the future.
And he wrote this in the 1960s.
He says in the futurewe are going to use
people as objects of pleasureinstead of loving them
(32:37):
as persons.
And really,so the opposite of love
is to use someone as an object.
And we see thiswith pornography,
but we even see thishow we are taught to view
the human person.
And so for me, it was like,man, I have to
my mind has to change.
And this is like Romans 12.
It's like we offer upyour bodies
as a living sacrifice,and we have to renew our mind
(32:58):
that even when we lookat people, male and female,
my goal is not to use themfor my own physical
or emotional pleasure.
My goal is tolove them to heaven.
And so even withwhat was beautiful about
even when I met Bobby, my job,that kind of detachment
like that, he wasn't free tobe mine, you know, like,
(33:19):
it was kind of like, oh my gosh.
Okay, so I have to be touched.
I have to love this man firstand foremost
as my brother in Christ.
My goal is to get him to heaven.
Yes, he is extremely goodlooking and attractive,
but my first goal is to.
Yes, it's for the beard.
You know, my first goal iswhen I look at him
is not to look at himas an object for my pleasure,
but to look at himas my brother in Christ,
(33:39):
who I love, who I wantto get to heaven.
And so every relationship I tellI talk to this about
two young people, like inour relationships with people
of the opposite sex or meetingthe same sex, like
do we use peoplefor our own pleasure
or do we actually love them?
Do we actually want their good?
Do we actually want themto get to heaven?
And how do we show that?
Or or am I using people?
(34:00):
Am I treating my guy friendsas stand in boyfriend?
Am I using thembecause I am needy
or I have these emotional gapsI need to feel, or do
I actually love them and I wantto be front like truly have this
holy relationship where my goalis to bring them
closer to the Lord.
So I think it's a complete shiftin how we view the world
(34:21):
and how we view people.
When when we look at itthrough that lens of
the opposite of loveis actually to use.
Yeah.
So on YouTube, under AscensionPresents, you're
going to have a year'sworth of videos we've done where
there's reallythe through line across
a whole bunchof different topics John Paul
(34:43):
the second and his presentationof the gospel, the goodness of
our human bodies, the goodnessof our flesh.
Jesus took on fleshin the incarnation,
like the theology of the body,is really kind of
the lens throughso many of our videos,
our personal website,Jackie and bobby.com
has the books we've written.
We love speaking in personlike digital ministries.
(35:06):
Such a gift.
There's nothing like speaking infront of people like flesh
and blood people.
And so we still love travelingand doing that. But, we've.
Jackie loves relationshipsand dating and and the stuff,
and I, I like philosophyand video games and all sorts
of other likeoff the beaten path.
But I love what we'remade for love.
(35:27):
So the datingthe relationship stuff is that
is the evergreen.
We're all looking for love.
And so and especiallywith chastity and in fact, love
and responsibility.
John Paul the second beforehe was the pope.
In that book he wrote,chastity is probably going to be
the word most in needof rehabilitation
(35:49):
in the century to come,because it's just been taught
is a repressive no.
And especially in the topicof pornography, it's like
it can't just be a wholebunch of no's and white
knuckling it.
There has to be ayes to something better.
There has to be a yesto loving as I was made for.
So chastity isnot this repressive? No.
(36:10):
The Catechism saysit is the integration
of our our heartsfor body and soul with sin
as as torn apart.
It's bringing backtogether so I can love
as as I made for. Yeah.
And that sin ruptures usright when we sin.
And our really like our bodieswant one thing and our souls
want another.
I mean, we've all hadthis experience of sin where,
(36:31):
our bodies are like,oh, I really want to do it.
And your soul's like,nope, you shouldn't do it
like your conscience,you know, like, I shouldn't
do this for your body, like,but I want it.
And so, like, that's the ruptureof sin.
Whereas when we are integrated,we are on the same page.
And that's a whole journeythat's going to take a lifetime.
And so the deeper questionsalways are to ask, like,
(36:51):
why am I doing this?
Why do I seek this?
Whether it's pornography,whether it's
certain relationships,whether it's food.
I mean, whatever relationshipwe have with anything like it,
the question is,why do I do this?
And that's the alwaysthe deeper is going.
The Lord wants us to go deeper.
The Lord wants to heal usand so with Gpt2,
I think for Bobby now,a huge part was knowing
like our desires, especially oursexual desires, aren't bad.
(37:13):
In fact, they're good.
They were created by the Lord.
They were created for a purpose.
They were createdfor life giving love.
Ultimately, when it comes,especially in marriage,
in the generationprocreation of children,
our desires have a purposeand our desires specifically
through theology.
By the way we meant to be gift.
We are meant to bea gift of self.
(37:34):
And he said and got him.
It spurs.
Pope John Paul brought this lineto Vatican two.
It's like gaudium.
It says 24.
It says you canonly find yourself.
And becoming a sinceregift of self, right?
We can onlytruly know who we are
when we become a gift.
And so, we are allcalled to that, whether we are
single, celibate,whether we are married,
we're called to be a giftand to love as Christ
(37:56):
loved and truly to be the handsand feet of Christ
like in marriage, like Bobby is.
That's how I experienced Jesusso profoundly
is through my spouse.
He shows me what love is andvice versa.
And then with our children,we are showing our children
God's love when we lovelike Christ.
So even on our own podcast,which is conversations
(38:17):
with Jackie Bobby,we love asking people
their testimonies,their stories.
You know how it is God shownshowing them
his love in their lives.
So that's kind of for us.
It's always like we wantwe want people to know
that God loves themand we want them to know,
like, how do we do that?
Like, how do we livelife as a human?
How how do we be holyand still be joyful and live
(38:40):
life to the fullest?
Christ calls us to live.
And so how dolike we want people
to know what love is?
And then how do we do that?
Like how do we live that out?
And that's beautiful.
One of the things that,when you, talked about
making a gift of yourself,I thought of, the the pastor
of the Byzantine churchthat I go to
who's also an expert on,theology of the body.
(39:02):
And he saidsomething interesting.
One day he said, yes, I'mgoing to say this as a priest,
and you're goingto be shocked by it.
Do not pray for an increasein vocations, he said.
Pray for the fire to come downand ignite us all.
Pray for a fertile soilthat will inspire all of us,
(39:22):
all of us to want to makea gift of ourselves.
And when that is in place,we'll know what vocation
to do that in.
So if you're ever lost in life,you have one thing make it
how to make a gift of yourself.
And how do weultimately do that?
Through Christianity,through being followers
of Jesus?
(39:42):
So, I'm so glad thatyou guys are out there
spreading that message,preaching that,
teaching that to others.
Do you guys have any,exciting projects
coming up next, eitherwith your podcast or any,
anything you guys got going on?
And then, then number two,what's one final piece of advice
you might, leave us with,about striving
(40:03):
to live with integrityin your faith as well as online?
Yeah, this this year hasbeen a big year with,
book releases.
I think that'sprobably the most book.
So I had a book come out calledMemorize Scripture, and I have
to go with my podcast.
And then Bobby had a bookcome out about philosophy,
and then you haveanother book coming up.
And I and it looks likeI'm way busier than I am.
(40:24):
They've been in the pipeline,a different interval,
like different speeds,and they're
all converging. Yeah.
I there's a bookthis summer with a name.
Maria.
Press on for Sadie.
Pierre.
Giorgio for Sadie.
Like an eight daypersonal retreat
with him as your guide.
That'll be in July.
And God is our booking agent.
This is.
We say, so when it comes tospeaking in ministry.
(40:46):
And what's next?
You'll have to ask him.
We're just trying to say yes.
In the season we're into the best of our ability.
Yeah. Summer.
I mean, we have a niceafter lent.
Lent was crazy, and it was a lota lot of travel, a lot of parish
missions, a lot of stuff.
This month is prettyawesome and chill.
And then summer comes upwhere we have a lot
of conferences.
But yeah, it'sjust kind of always
this wave that goeswith the school year.
(41:09):
Any, any life advice that,that you want to leave with.
People life advice.
As, like a Catholic like me.
No pressure.
Like something that youyou feel like you're constantly
being a broken recordabout people.
You you can't give what youdon't have.
I'll steal this line from DoctorGreg Pitaro, who's the head of
(41:29):
Catholic psych,who I'm sure took it
from someone else. But,from Peter Cray for someone.
But we, we cannot be the enginesof our own healing
or the healing of our families.
We have to let.
We have to be loved.
And we can't.
Will that. Yeah.
There's nothing to earn.
You just receive it.
(41:50):
And so much of, like,why people seek out porn
or seek out other unhealthycoping mechanisms is because
I don't feel loved.
Like underneath itall, I'm stressed,
I'm lonely, I'm tired.
Yes, but I'm turning to thiscoping mechanism because I don't
feel loved.
Just as I am.
And it's there's, there'sI have to be perfect or I've got
to fix myself.
(42:10):
Or it's like, just letyourself be loved as you are
and.
And how people do that.
To stop trying.
Like, we complicate itand we think I
have to be perfect,or I think I have to get
all my ducks in a row and it's.
Or have to do all these thingsto earn God's love.
Yeah.
(42:30):
It's like he already loves you.
Like, while we werestill sinners,
Christ died for us.
So he loves youin your deepest sin,
just as muchas when you walk out
of the confessional.
Yeah.
And when we startto actually receive it,
not just hear, not just spit itback for a test.
God loves me.
When you actually startallowing that to go deep,
(42:51):
then it's like the thestuff, the temptations,
it starts to lose its power.
It starts to lose its allure.
It's like, I don't want tosettle for that.
And and I want other people,I want my family,
I want my childrento know that too.
That you're lovedjust as you are, not what you
get on the test, not how goodyou are in sports.
(43:11):
But we can't give it.
We don't have.
So it's like, do I know thatand believe that that I'm loved.
Period. Full stop.
Yeah.
One of my one of ourfavorite books.
I sell more of his booksthan any of our own is,
doctor Bob shoots be healed.
It's such a great book for that.
Like, again, to walk through,allowing the Lord to love you
and to heal youand to go to those.
Because that, again,that was what was life
(43:31):
changing for the two of usis when we were 18.
For me, it was recognizingI have a father
in heaven who loves meso, so much.
A lot of us have a lot offather wounds
and many mother wounds.
And to realize,like we have a father in heaven,
we are his children, his belovedsons, and daughters,
and that we don'thave to earn that.
But that's justthe nature of our
our relationshipwith our Heavenly Father
(43:51):
is how much,how much he loves us.
So when thatseeps in your heart,
it's it's life changing.
It changeshow you see the world.
It changes everything,and then it changes
what you're not.
I'm like, I'm not willing.
I don't want to settlefor the dumpster anymore.
Like, I know I deserve the bestbecause God is my father
and has the best for me.
And all will be well.
(44:11):
The Catechism says thatchastity is a lifelong endeavor,
so to not feel, to not fallto hopelessness.
If I'm fallingagain and again, it's
it's not a total reset.
You're just stumbling upthe mountain.
And the more you bring inother people, the more you bring
in accountability.
Again, Covenant Eyes has blessedmy life and my vocation.
(44:33):
Like I don't knowwhere I'd be without it.
So just how the Lord is, isthere's a lot of bad
stuff on the internet.
There's also alot of beautiful tools
and apostle apps that arethe Lord is raising up
for us to help one another.
Yeah, you're just imaginethat it's building a muscle.
It's working outand working out.
It hurts and it stinksand like it's painful,
but it's the more you doit, there's this like
(44:54):
with virtue, virtue,the more you act
and walk in virtue.
And even though it'srequires sacrifice and it's
going to be difficult to say noto certain things,
you're building a muscleand it gets easier
as it goes. Like that.
Virtue keeps growingand it'll become easier
as it goes on.
Just likeit is with working out.
That's a great analogyand great wisdom
from both of you.
(45:15):
Thank you both Bobby and Jackiefor joining us today.
This has been anamazing conversation.
I know our listenersare going to be truly
blessed by the wisdomand just the stories
that you shared with us today,so we want to
thank you and hopefully,our listeners
can continue to prayfor your ministry
and for your outreachand for your work, and hopefully
you'll havea nice season of rest
(45:36):
during the next month or soso you can get back at it
at the conference.
I know that's exhausting.
So we'll be praying for you.
Thank you guys so much.
Thanks for having.
Us. Yeah, absolutely.
We'll see you.
Oh, thanks so muchfor joining me today
for the Covenant Eyes podcast.
I know our listenersare going to be truly
blessed by this episode.
Your final closing thoughtsfor today?
Well, I'm just grateful to,Jack and Bobby for, joining us.
(45:59):
I'm grateful for, all of the,the work that that you do.
And I share a lot of thepassion with you guys as well
with, theology of the body,with our Catholic faith,
especially with,seeing marriages and families
be well gratefulfor your work in that.
I mean, marriage and family.
That really is the bedrockof civilization.
It was Mother Teresa who said,you know, Calcutta is
(46:21):
at your house.
I was at your backyard.
You know, you, so, I mean,if every one of us
would just go homeand love our family,
the world would reallybe a great place.
Just would the church.
So thanks for your workand teaching us how to do that.
And, and it's an honor for usand for you to to work
alongside you to helpthe world be pure and chaste
(46:41):
as well as holy.
So, we just want to thank you.
And like you said, we'll bepraying for you.
So God bless you.
God bless your five kids.
God blessyour upcoming ministry.
And thank you everyone tofor listening
to this episode of TheCovenant on this podcast.
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