October 8, 2025 • 34 mins
In this powerful episode of The Covenant Eyes Podcast, host Karen Potter sits down with Canadian pastor and recovery advocate Vern Tompke, creator of the Finding Traction and Pastors on P*rn podcasts. Vern shares his deeply personal story of overcoming p*rn*graphy addiction while serving in ministry — and how God turned his healing into a mission to help others.
Together, Karen and Vern discuss:
• The unique challenges pastors face when struggling with p*rn
• How shame and burnout can fuel addiction
• Why accountability and community are essential for recovery
• How technology — and tools like Covenant Eyes — create safer environments
• The importance of churches embracing brokenness to foster healing
Whether you’re a pastor, ministry leader, or someone seeking freedom from p*rn, this episode offers wisdom, hope, and practical tools for lasting transformation.
Listen now to discover how faith, humility, and accountability can bring freedom and restoration.
➡️ Learn more about Vern’s ministry: https://BandOfBrothers.care
➡️ Pastors, get your resources here: https://cvnteyes.co/4fTsi9j
➡️ Get Accountability with Covenant Eyes: https://cvnteyes.co/4gb6xme
💬 Share your thoughts or prayer requests below — we’re in this together.
#CovenantEyes #PornRecovery #FaithOverPorn #ChristianRecovery #PastorsOnPorn #FindingTraction #VernTompke #Accountability #FreedomFromPorn #ChurchHealing #SexualIntegrity #faithbasedhealing
⏱️ Chapters:
00:00 – Welcome from Karen Potter
00:45 – Introducing Pastor Vern Tompke
01:10 – From Pastoral Ministry to P*rn Recovery
02:10 – Creating Finding Traction & Pastors on P*rn
03:00 – Why Pastors Hide Their Struggles
04:15 – Vern’s Own Journey to Healing
06:00 – Burnout and the “Perfect Storm” of Addiction
08:00 – Finding Mentorship and Safe Spaces
10:00 – Practical Steps for Recovery
11:40 – Why Covenant Eyes is Essential
13:00 – Understanding the Roots of Addiction
15:00 – Relapse and Grace in the Recovery Journey
17:00 – The Power of Gentle Accountability
20:00 – Managing Technology and Triggers
22:00 – Building Healthy Digital Boundaries
23:00 – Social Media as a New P*rn Substitute
26:00 – Church Culture and Brokenness
28:00 – Why Churches Must Platform Healing
31:00 – Examples of Courageous Churches
33:00 – Where to Find Vern’s Podcasts
34:00 – Final Thoughts and Gratitude to Covenant Eyes
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
Hey everybody, welcome backto the Covenant Eyes podcast.
It's Karen here,and I am so glad
to have you joining us.
We have got a great showlined up for today.
We have got a special guestjoining us from over the border
in Canada.
We are excitedto have Vern Tompke.
Did I get that right?
Go right now.
Awesome.
Well, welcome to the podcast.
(00:27):
We're so glad to have youjoining us.
It's great to be on.
I love getting to know you guys.
Got to know Rob and Sam as well.
And you guys have been such ablessing in my life.
So I'm just so glad to be here.
Well good.
Well we are excitedto have a conversation
and learn more about the workthat you're doing.
So for our listenersthat are not familiar with you,
(00:48):
or maybe don't listento your podcast or haven't
heard of it yet.
Yeah, talk to us a little bitabout the work that you're doing
in the ministry,that you have as well.
Well, I was, a pastor.
I still am a pastor for35 years.
And, out of myown struggle with porn,
I'm kind of an overshare.
(01:08):
My wife says I'm an overshare.
Karen.
And, I've just kind of beenthe guy.
Whatever I learn and grow inand the comfort and healing
I've received, I just.
I just want to give it away.
Maybe that's every pastorsomething, but most pastors
don't like talkingabout sexual brokenness.
I, I that's notbeen part of my journey.
(01:29):
So my journey coming outof addictions, my journey
coming as a pastor,struggling with porn
has all been a part of my story.
And so coming downto a place of healing,
I developed a couple podcasts.
One of them is calledFinding Traction, which is
basically helping just yourregular Joes with just how to
(01:50):
develop plans, how to look atlife's issues, how to create,
just a better understandingof how to find healing.
And then I also createdthat kind of a parallel podcast
called Pastors on Porn.
Really subtle title, right?
Yeah, yeah.
And that is all arounddealing with issues for pastors,
how to create cultureswithin churches
(02:12):
that are, you know,we're agents of healing.
So kind of all thingschurch related
is pastors on porn.
And then all things individualrelated is finding traction.
Oh my goodness.
Well, you definitely stay busywith two podcasts and totally,
you know, two differentdemographics that your team is.
Well, I love that.
Well, let's start with the workthat you're doing with pastors.
(02:33):
But you know the work hereat Covenant Eyes, we work with a
ton of churches,and we talk to pastors
all the time.
We know that there are pastorsthat are struggling
with pornography.
But, you know, there'sso many reasons for a pastor
not to step forward.
You know, I mean, the cultureof the church sometimes is less
than forgiving.
They don't have a planto help them find restoration.
(02:54):
Their jobs, their families,everything's on the line.
There's a lot at stake.
But also, you know,addressing our sins
and overcoming those issuper important.
So what kind of advicedo you offer to pastors
as you're working with themand through your work
on your podcast?
Well, first of all, I say topastors, it it is hard
(03:15):
to call people into the lightif you're still standing
in the shadows,that that is true.
And every pastor knowsif there's not
a congruence there, itit is such a weight on ministry
to to do that.
I recognize we do live in ain a challenging culture
(03:35):
as as pastors,sometimes people confuse
sexual brokennessor struggles with porn,
for example,with illegal behavior,
which, you know, that that's anentirely different,
you know, thing and or takingadvantage of people
in the congregation.
There is real, honestchurch discipline,
and there's real,honest boundaries
(03:56):
and accountabilitythat needs to happen.
But for your regular pastorlike me, for 2030 years,
I struggledwith sexual brokenness
around porn.
I, I, I could havejust left the ministry
and I know that's what happens.
People quietlyleave the ministry
in the call of Godon their lives
because they're afraidof being found out.
And I just said,is there a better way?
(04:17):
And I fortunatelywas able to remain as a pastor.
I got mentoring, I got helpfrom a variety of sources,
and I am and maybe aunique situation.
I was able to transitionto a place of healing
while remaining a pastor,and that the you know, the great
grace story of that is, Godwas able to use my healing
(04:41):
and the comfort I've receivedto help other people.
And I know that's noteverybody's story,
but I think that'sthe ideal story.
When pastors are addressingtheir own brokenness
and bringing other people alongin the humility
that they're growing in.
That is so powerful and so good.
And that is really the hopethat we can get more pastors
(05:02):
on that path and that journey.
Absolutely.
Talk to us a little bit.
So, you know,through your podcast,
I'm sure thatyou get contacted by
lots of pastors who, you know,definitely know
they want to addressthis, the secret sin
that they've been living with,but they don't know what to do.
What resources and ministriesdo you, partner
(05:23):
with to really help them kind ofget those wraparound services
so that they can navigatethrough this?
Yeah.
And and first thing, I,I don't recommend going public
as a starting thing.
I recommendget some personal help
start dealing.
You know, if you knowI'll sit down with people
and go and I do.
I have a lot of individual callswith pastors.
(05:45):
We meet on a privateyou know, private zoom call,
and I'll just say,tell me your story,
tell me your story.
And as I hear their storyand I start listening
to some of the dynamics,then it's pretty clear.
Do you got do you need to to,work on self-care?
Is this just a question ofof the self-care situation
in your life?
The wheels arestarting to come off
(06:06):
because of a burnout situation.
That's what happened to me.
Karen, at 40 years,at 40 years old, I went through
a significant burnout.
And that's when porncompletely resurfaced
in my life.
I call it my perfect storm.
I was I was by vocational,I was burnt out and I was alone
in a high speed office.
Well, you canget that connection right.
(06:29):
And so, so basically, guy,so many pastors would say,
I have no place to talk to.
I'm workingwith a pastor right now
who's in his 60s.
He's just nearing retirement.
And this is it was a sad story.
He said, you know,I went through
my entire pastoral lifestruggling with porn.
Now that I'm, you know,basically retiring,
(06:51):
I can finally nowshare my story.
And I'm glad he'ssharing his story.
At 60, you know, mid 60s.
But how much morewould God have been able
to redeem his storyand push back against the
enemy's plans if he had finallyfound some hope and healing
earlier on in his ministry,and what the changes
(07:12):
could have beenwith the people he came
in contact with. Wow.
Oh my gosh,that is a really heart
wrenching story. Yeah.
So many pastors, you know,certainly because of the nature
of the work, they carrythe burdens of
their congregation.
They areputting out fires there,
you know, they are burnt out.
They are burning both.
You know, the candle atboth ends, as they say.
(07:35):
And a lot of thatleads to isolation.
They don't havepeople in their lives
that they feel that they canconfide in.
What steps do you recommendto pastors?
You know, I think I believethat we all need
a band of brothersor a sisterhood of sisters
around us, but how do pastorsget to a place where they feel
safe enough to find those peopleand build that that
(07:57):
band of brothers around them?
Well, sometimes it's feel safeand sometimes it's just
the pain becomes so strong.
If you've ever hadan abscess tooth,
I've had two of them.
You know, you will
call a dentist at 11 (08:10):
00 at night and say,
I need to see you.
You will knock on their doorbecause you will go,
I cannot deal with thethe incongruence
in my life any longer.
Yeah.
And and I have, you know,in my situation,
I came to a pointwhere we drove an hour
to get some counselingbecause I just felt
the internal pressureof, you know, the dissonance
(08:33):
in my life.
I couldn't live it any longer.
And I had it, you know, I neededsomeplace to turn.
So I drove to, you know, asex addiction
therapist in Vancouver.
And I begin to.
What's going on with me?
Why I'm in this place.
It's years later. I.
I found a mentor like myself.
His name was Michael Leahy.
Great guy.
Guys to appreciate.
(08:53):
Michael I know Michael.
Yes.
And we work together.
And now I'm able to mentorother pastors to say, maybe I'm
the very first guythat you've talked to somebody
outside of your churchin a safe way.
And we can begin to look atwhat's going on in your life
used, you know, and the classicline is porn is not your main
problem.
(09:14):
It's your favorite solution.
So what do you what are youtrying to solve?
What is going on here.
And it's inthat safe environment
that we can you know,I've had groups of just pastors
who get together because then itthat's some of them.
That's that's what they needto feel safe.
Yeah.
You know, other pastorsgo at it.
That's not as big a dealas long as there's
nobody from my own town for you.
(09:35):
Yeah, right.
So all of those steps are onesthat I know I've worked
with pastors andand I'm hopefully able
to pass on the same,mentoring that I got
from somebody, like,with Michael.
That's amazing.
So talk to us.
You know, on the flip side,you're also, you know,
running a podcastthat really speaks
to the individual,the individual
that is strugglingwith pornography,
(09:57):
maybe in recovery.
So in your work in that space,what are you finding
most helpful and beneficialto the guys?
And gals that may be listeningto your podcast when they're
they're looking for help?
Well, I think it's it's amulti-pronged approach.
I, I really resist sometimes.
(10:17):
I'm a bit of a contrarian,when people say to me,
all you need to dois fill in the blanks.
And, and churches, we've,we've been horrible that way.
You just need to knowyour identity
in Christ character.
You just need to memorizethese verses.
You just need to knowthat you're not a sinner.
You just need, you know,whatever you are,
all you need to do is.
(10:38):
Yeah, I go, well,that's a good thing,
but maybe for you it's somethingdifferent.
You know, the two bigstarting points of this,
I say the guy's number one.
How has doing it on your ownbeen working for you?
Hmm. Good question.
They all go.
Well, it's not.
I've tried, you know, 100 timesto to quit this behavior,
which is hurting me, hurtingthe people I love.
(11:00):
That's the first thing.
And I'll saythe second thing is,
well, tell me how, you know,your willpower has been working.
You know, how is that work?
Because obviously, you you'veyou've purposed and resolved
in your heart 100,000.
You know, how many timesto to end this behavior.
So doing thatalone is not working.
Doing it with willpoweris not working.
(11:20):
So I, I'm a really practical,pragmatic guy.
And I like to saythe very first thing
I want to help you withis how to turn the engine off,
how to get out of this despair,shame cycle, lather,
rinse, repeat, cycle.
And you know you'rebringing your car
into the mechanicand the engine is racing
and there'ssomething wrong with it.
And the mechanic says,well, let's turn the engine off
(11:43):
before he puts his handsin there. Right.
And and so we just work on somepractical things. Okay.
What type of relapsesare you having?
Are they impulse relapses?
You know, it's likehaving a bowl of chips
beside you.
And at the end of the day,magically, they're gone
every day.
You know, it's empty.
And so I say, well, let's getlet's work on
(12:03):
getting screen time.
Let's work on getting CovenantEyes on your phone.
Let's work on some of thesepractical things to put some,
you know, some resistanceand distance between you
and the impulsesthat get you in trouble.
That's why I love Covenant.
You know, peoplego, well, you know,
I really shouldbe able to do it.
I'm a Christian.
I should be able to do it.
I shouldn't need theseexternal crutches
(12:24):
and Covenant Eyesand the I'm saying I need them.
I've been in recoveryfor 15 years.
Yeah, I need them.
And so that's the first thing.
Get the ancient,just the practical plans
in place to create a safeenvironment
with your technology,a safe environment, a plan.
Look at the times of the daythat you struggle or the week
days of the week.
(12:45):
Let's do that first,so you're not endlessly
into self-recriminationdespair shame cycle now.
Now that we've got a little bitof clear thinking,
now that we've gottenrid of some of the brain fog,
now let's begin to lookat some of these other areas.
What are the mistakenbeliefs that you have?
What are the unmet needsthat you're trying to solve
(13:05):
with porn?
What is perhaps I had,Tim Fletcher on,
this last week from,interview a therapist,
and he says, you know,when we talked about
what is the areaof is there trauma?
Is there somethingwhere you attach
to these behaviors?
So, so now that the engine isturned off, let's begin to ask
(13:27):
the underlying.
The deeper questions.
I kind of do it in the twopronged approach.
We look at spirituality.
We look at your relationships.
We look at your habits.
We do all of these things.
It we come at it from manydifferent angles.
And that takes time.
Right, Karen?
So, you know, I mean,it must be maybe it's a
guy's thing.
(13:48):
I don't know, maybe girls,they come to me and in one way
or another they're askingthis question.
Okay, so how quick can we getthis thing turned around.
Right. Yes.
As a first question as well,how many years
have you been working onembedding this,
this habit in your life?
Right.
You know, and is it five,is it ten?
Is it 20?
Isn't that right?
(14:09):
So chances are ifif you've been working
on developing this in your lifeas a way of life,
it's your goal.
Solution.
For every problem you have,every negative emotion you have,
chances are it'sgoing to take time for you
to reverse engineer some of thisand so I mean, that's
why I've developedlike a one year
(14:31):
video course calledFinding Traction to walk people
through that they cando individually, or they can do
with a group of their buddiesor they can do with me.
It takes time. It does.
Yeah, absolutely.
We hear that a lot.
And I mean, we live in a worldthat's all about
instant gratification.
Get things done quickly.
So it's almost embeddedin our nature now.
(14:52):
Like to want things quickly.
But unfortunately,things like recovery,
God can do miracles.
He absolutely canand he can, you know, redeem
you and restore you andin a drop of a hat.
But most of ushave to put in the time
and the work.
And I'm so gratefulthat you called that out,
because often peopleoverlook that and think
this is going to be fast.
(15:13):
So as you work with men I love,I love the fact
that you're a pastor because youtie everything back to,
you know, strong,faith connection,
you know, making surethat they're growing spiritually
as they're unpackingthis addiction.
So talk to us a little bit moreabout some of the the hang ups
and things that people run into.
(15:35):
So maybe they foundsome sobriety
from pornography use,but then they have a relapse.
What do you do for those peoplein those situations?
Because that can be really,really heart wrenching for
someone that's maybebeen in recovery for a year
and now they've reallyfell back in.
Well, and and we startwith saying,
if you're going to starta recovery
(15:56):
on the recovery journey,the very first thing
that's going to bewith you is humility.
You're not going toget quick answers and otherwise
you would be insufferable.
And we all know the personthat just prayed at prayer
and God healed themfrom smoking or or drugs
and you're going, well,that's amazing.
But there is a step in humility.
(16:17):
And the classic lineI say to guys, Karen, is
no matter how far down the roadyou get, you know,
driving your vehicle.
If I could droveall the way to Kentucky,
there's going to be a ditchstill on both sides of the road.
No matter how far I get,it's still there.
And so what we do is to sayto people, number one,
my job is not tomake you feel bad so much.
(16:38):
You know, I know one ofthe questions
and you guys work a lotwith this word accountability.
But the word accountabilityis all about connections.
It's not making you feel bad.
Yeah.
Karen, if if I, if mefeeling bad about my behavior
was the was the reasonfor change.
If the if it wasthe key to change
I would have changed3040 years ago.
(16:59):
Right? Yeah.
And so much of accountabilityjust embeds that shame.
Well, what were you thinking?
Well, we talked about thisor why didn't you call me
all of those kind of things.
And I just say, let's comealongside of you, okay?
What did you learn?
You've developed a plan.
You're responsible.
You know, you're responsiblefor your recovery.
What did you learn fromthat relapse?
(17:21):
What unmet need?
What what practical?
Was there a weak linkin your environment?
What was the was therea strong emotion that you need
better toolsto equip yourself with?
How do we do?
We learn from our failures.
Righteous man fallsseven times, right?
It says in Scripture and and yetin church life we go one fall,
(17:44):
especially in the sexual area,means you're done for.
It's you know, where to restore,you know, Galatians six,
we are to restoreeach other gently.
Yeah. Right.
And so that's you know, I know,I know our groups are working
well when, you know,when people come
in, they had, you know,we do a check in every week
(18:07):
and, you know, red, orange,green kind of stuff.
And if people areare not doing well,
if they skip that week, I knowwe've missed something
in the culture of our group.
Yeah, I don't want togo to that group
because I didn'thave a good week.
If that's if that'speople's response.
That's not a good group.
Right?
Yeah, that's a greatway to look at it I love that
(18:28):
and I think you bring upa good point too.
Like when people, you knowdon't show up to group
or you know, they don't checkin, you know,
your accountabilitypartner, you know, we should
we should reach out to them as,yes, their friends and their
accountability partner.
Because oftentimeswhen you know, we make a mistake
or we fall down, we tend tokind of revert
to that old way of,you know, hiding in that shame.
(18:48):
So as accountabilitypartners and friends,
we need to kind ofdo what's uncomfortable and just
reach out anywaysand let them know that
they're there for him.
I often I was,speaking with somebody and I'm
not sure who it was,but they were talking about,
you know,when you're in recovery
and perhaps you have a youyou fall back into
using pornographyand you have a moment,
(19:09):
you know, you you don'tstart from ground zero.
You pick yourselfback up where you're at
and you keep going.
Because oftentimeswe can think, well,
you know, now I going tostart all over and go through
all this again.
And it's like you,when you build a house,
you know, you're buildingon a foundation and it
maybe you get tothe second floor
and there's somethingyou don't just burn
the whole thing downand start over. Right?
(19:31):
I mean, you just correctthe little what happened
and you take care of thatand you continue building.
So we need to remember thatin our journey.
I think sometimeswe can forget that.
Yes.
You know, we dosometimes have relapse in our,
in our recovery processes,but that doesn't mean
that we can'tkeep moving forward.
So I just want to make surepeople have hope for that.
(19:51):
Talk to me a little bit about,you know, technology.
You know,that's a big one. Yeah.
You know, and sometimes, like Ithe Bible is pretty clear about,
you know, if something'scausing us to sin,
we take some prettyradical action, right?
Sometimes our technologycan just be too much for us.
And I've seen guys, you know,get rid of smartphones.
I've seen them giveflip phones like,
(20:11):
whatever it takes.
But how are you coaching peoplewith their technology?
I know you mentioned CovenantEyes is a great tool.
And for a lot of peoplethat that's the right answer.
But sometimes that's not enoughfor some people, right?
Well, it's it's not an,I, I always can tell this,
this is one ofthe biggest places
where resistance comes upin this process,
(20:34):
because people wantto do recovery, but they don't
want to changetheir environment.
It's a great, greatbook out there
called by Benjamin Hardy calledWillpower Is Not Enough.
And in his book he workswith professional athletes
on other things.
And what he essentially says isyou need to make choices,
but this is the wayyou make choices, subcontract
(20:56):
your willpower to a successfulenvironment.
That is whereyour willpower comes in
to choose the right environment.
That's what you dowith athletes.
Their environment is all crucialatomic habits.
And I love learning fromanother great book.
That's a great book to make.
To break a habit,you have to make it invisible,
unattractive, difficult,and unsatisfying.
(21:18):
And I and I say to guys, okay,you know what?
There's different typesof relapses, but the one that
always got me in troublewas the impulse,
the impulse relapse.
And I need some friction.
I need some distance.
So I for example, here'shere's a little,
you know, example.
My wife right now teacheselementary school.
We have maybe five devicesin our house
(21:41):
that could access pornor access material.
You know what all five of thosehave in common?
They all have a remote controland I make a pre-comp
every night.
I make a pre-commitment.
I take responsibility.
That's that's trueaccountability.
And every night when we're donewatching TV, I pick up
all the remotes.
I hand them, I hand the boxto my wife, and she throws
(22:02):
all the remotesinto the little clear
box and spins the dial.
And I don't think about it all.
The next day, my smart TVs,they're my fours.
They're my this, my that.
I have made a pre-commitmentto subcontract my willpower
to a successful environment.
I am. Awesome.
(22:22):
And that's where,you know, screen time on
my iPhone is a life saver.
That's where CovenantEyes is a life saver.
You know, the thingthat changed it for me
was the fact that that peopleare going to see
I had a problem foreverwith Google Images.
Well, now you know.
Now Google Images.
I know I have 2or 3 accountability buddies
(22:44):
that they'regoing to see things.
I love the fact thatthere's always somebody
in the room with memetaphorically talking, talking,
talking about technology.
I do want to address somethingwhich I've worked with guys now
for a dozen years or so.
This is a big changecarried over the
last 2 or 3 years.
I say to guys, do you realizehow much things have changed
(23:05):
in the last 2 to 3 years?
People are nowusing social media in exactly
the same waythey used to use porn.
And when guys check in with me,I often get this.
Well, it wasn't porn.
Technically.
Whenever somebody usethe word technically, I know,
I don't know what's going on,you know, and, and and they're
(23:27):
relating to Instagram.
They're relatingto YouTube shorts, Facebook X,
whatever the shorts clips. Yeah.
They all have different words.
Yeah.
But but they're using itin exactly the same way
to exactly the same effect.
And that is where the technologyhas really changed.
(23:48):
And we've just had to sayI have two challenges.
I say to my new guys,I want you to do two things.
Number one,for the first 60 days,
I want you to connectwith somebody every day
until you get 60 daysclean time.
That's the one rule.
Like, you know,Lord of the rings,
the One Ring to rule,the one rule to rule them all.
You're going to connectwith somebody
every day for 60 days.
(24:09):
The rule number twois you're going to get rid
of all social media for 60 daysuntil you could 60 days
and those.
And then I know immediatelywhat kind of well, I was kind of
hoping to do this recovery,you know, a bit at a time
without these strong, you know,if you're if this
causes you to sin.
Right.
(24:29):
So but but technologyis changing.
That's not even getting intovirtual three.
You know all of that.
We're just yeah. No.
But that is absolutely crucial.
And guys go well.
And you occasionally gettherapists and others
saying, well, you know, Karen,if we really dealt
with the real and, you know,the real issues
of trauma and all this,we wouldn't
(24:49):
have to deal with that.
Why why do wewhy can't two things
be true at once?
Yeah. Agreed. Right.
So yeah.
There you go.
There you go. Yeah.
No, I think that's great.
And I think we often forget thatthe algorithms on social media
and often like when I'mtalking to parents,
I try to explain this to them.
These platforms are all free.
They're not free because metaand Mark Zuckerberg love us,
(25:13):
and they just want to give ussomething free because they care
about us.
They they give it to us.
Free because they are designedto market and manipulate you
to do something that they wantyou to do, whether it's
buy products, get into porn,you know, go down the rabbit
trails, you know,social isolation,
whatever it is like.
We have to be more carefulwith even social media
(25:35):
because it is so easy to get,especially for men online.
The algorithm will suck you in.
So even though you're like,well, I'm
just, you know, watchinghunting and fishing.
Yeah, yeah, but how long beforeall of a sudden videos are being
recommended to youbecause they want to
draw you into that.
So yeah, I love thatyou're asking them
to take that 60 daypause. That's so smart.
(25:57):
And I think it's smartfor all of us to take a break
from social media like,you know, fast from it for,
you know, a given period of timebecause it is so addictive
and leads us intoall different places.
Thank you.
That was really good.
So one other Covenant Eyesexample, there's a couple
news sites that constantlygot me into trouble.
I won't say which ones they are,but you probably can
(26:17):
guess I can't.
Yeah, yeah.
And I just said that's it.
Fool me once.
Shame on you.
Fool me twice, shame on me.
That new siteis now on my covenant list.
Yeah, get my new somewhere else.
Thank you very much.
Exactly.
Yeah, I mean,that's a radical step,
but you know what?
That is the right thing to do.
I mean, if it causes you toto sin like. Absolutely.
So, let's talk a little bit.
(26:39):
Let's go back into the churchspace and, you know, the church.
You know, there was Barna statsover dropped last year.
You know, 10% of churcheshave programs
to address pornography,which is an improvement
from the one that we didin 2016, but not by much,
because 77%.
Yeah. That's right.
So there's a lot of workthe church really needs to do
(27:00):
in this space.
But, you know, there's there'sa lack of information,
a lack of knowledge.
You know, some pastorsare struggling, so it's hard
for them to, you know,bring that to the table.
What can we do as a church,the big Seed church,
on this topic to make someheadway with this
issue and help people?
I, I, I don't think we'reever going to get very far
(27:25):
if we're not willingto platform brokenness.
And what I mean by that is myI that's why I love, you know,
with the broken guysand Jonathan Doherty
and all of that.
Yeah, I love the nameof their ministry.
Because my thing is, all of usexperienced brokenness.
All of us experienced brokennessfrom the enemy
(27:48):
in a myriad of different ways.
It's not just sexual brokenness.
It's not, you know, and if we'rejust fixated on
sexual brokenness, it's what skyjust any crutch.
Christianity, if we're ifthat's what we're fixated on,
then people that struggle inthat area go, obviously there's
something abnormal with me.
(28:08):
And and that's why you're going,does that mean that every pastor
needs to havea story of recovery
from sexual brokenness?
No. Obviously.
But but it means to be ableto have key leaders talk about
their healing.
You know, it could be fromfood addict, you know,
food addictions.
It could be fromeating disorders.
It could be from,you know, pornography.
(28:30):
It could be all of that.
Whenever, whenever we'rewe're unwilling to do that.
Then here'sthe dichotomy. Karen.
It feels like churchSunday morning
is for successful.
Got it together people.
People on the platform of peoplewhose lives I want to be like
because they don't strugglewith the things I struggle with
(28:52):
and and the porn struggler.
And two out of fiveyoung women struggle
with porn as well.
From that survey,the porn struggles.
There's there's somethinguniquely wrong
and broken with me.
And of course,they stay in silence.
And I put that at the feetof our church cultures
and our leaders.
Now, I know there's there's,you know, people are
(29:13):
freaked out on legal stuff.
But you know what?
I just say we do.
Our people such a disservice.
And, you know, and II'm, I understand,
you know, there'sthere's great groups
like Pure Desireand Celebrate Recovery,
for example.
But that can bedone one of two ways
it can be done here is theabnormal group
(29:35):
for abnormal people.
Yeah.
You go there,but it's also done.
I've also seen it donewell, like the hospital
church movement and otherswhere it's integrated
into the life of the church.
I just don't want itto be marginalized
because when it'syeah, that's my fear.
With how some programsare being implemented.
(29:56):
I think you're right.
And I thinkthat doesn't actually get talked
to a lot aboutbecause you're right,
we all have brokennessin some shape or form.
And it may not necessarily bepornography, but whatever it is,
we all come to the crosswith our brokenness and our sin.
And so I think that's a reallyfascinating conversation
that the church really needsto have internally
(30:17):
and talk abouthow do we create that,
that culture where it'sokay to be broken,
but we don't stayin our brokenness.
Right?
Christ died for our sins,and we can move through that.
So I love that topic.
That's really good.
Well, have,you know, in your work
you probably see some churchesthat are doing this
right and well, so what are someexamples maybe of churches
(30:38):
that you've seen or leadersthat are really delivering
on this idea of younot just talking about
maybe sexual brokennessor pornography use,
but just brokenness in general,and that the
the church is a safe,healing place.
Well, I know inSam Black's book, he,
he interviewed James Reeve.
I've talked.
Yeah. Interviewed James.
That was very good.
(30:58):
I'm so thrilled.
A good a Scottish pastor,friend of mine, large,
multi-site church.
He's one of thethe site pastors.
He created the video,I call it Dave Story where he's
one of the pastors.
And he he shared about the timethat he first
shared his struggle with pornwith his wife and, and,
and what an impact, you know,that began a process.
(31:20):
So so it's Dave story undermy name on YouTube.
It's so encouraging.
And that started using,you know, they began groups
and began to work with menout of his courage
in that place.
Yes, of course,it needs to be navigated
with the board and with leaders.
But I, I think, I think fearkeeps us captive, Karen.
(31:41):
I think fear we're afraid.
And I thinkthe enemy is a bully.
He loves to keep us in fear.
And so many peoplewould walk out of the shadows
in their lives.
If we as leaders,have the courage to walk
out of the shadows ourselves,we're supposed to be as leaders.
We're supposed to be the oneto take the first step.
I think that'swhat leadership is.
(32:03):
Yeah.
And so obviously there's wisdomin how we do that.
But, so my Scottish part,there's, there's
a few, Garrett calls,I'm going to
interview him coming up.
And, Fabulous.
Part of my, my, my goalwith the pastor on porn one
is to highlight churchesthat have been courageous
in this area.
That's kind of where I'mmoving the podcast to,
(32:25):
to say, here's an example.
You know, I love.
That.
Everybody didn'trun out of the church
when he sharedhis brokenness. Right?
So we're starting,but we're still
got a lot of work to gowhere 90% of churches,
leave a lot of roomfor growth. Right?
Absolutely.
Well, I love thatyou're adding that
to your podcast.
So our listeners like,definitely check out the podcast
(32:46):
so that you can hearthose stories.
Because oftenwe find that, you know,
somebody has to go first, right?
And there's already peoplegoing first.
So there are things that we canlearn and from, and hopefully
they'll share the mistakesthey've made
as well as the wins, because welearned through all of that.
So I I'm so grateful to hearthat you're going to have that
on your podcastthat we can learn from
(33:07):
and grow with.
So speaking of your podcast,both of them,
how do our listeners find bothof those podcasts
so that they can take a listenand we'll make sure
we drop thoseinto the show notes as well.
The two podcastthe one for pastors is called
Pastors on Porn.
These are all onthe regular podcast apps.
The second one is calledFinding Traction
Recovery from porn.
(33:27):
And there you'll getinformation on how to get
onto the circlelearning platform that I run,
where you can get access tolots of free worksheets,
get accessto the groups, and also,
I have a 52 week video coursethat people can
take individually or with otherpeople as well.
So oh, that's the way to do it.
Awesome.
And then do you have a websiteas well?
(33:49):
It's it's BandOfBrothers.caredot C-A-R-E.
So BandOfBrothers plural .care.
Perfect. All right.
Well, listeners, we'll make surewe put all those
in the show notesso you can get back
to those easy and quick.
Vernon has been such a joyto speak with you today.
Thank you for your courageand sharing your testimony,
and really just deliveringthese two powerful podcasts
(34:12):
that really open upthis issue to a wide
audience and and bring them hopeand give them, you know, wisdom
from your own experiences.
Thank you so much.
And I want to thank CovenantEyes, literally,
I owe such a huge debtof gratitude to Covenant Eyes
and your guys's faithfulnessin my recovery.
(34:32):
So thank you guys.
Well, thank you.
And thank you, listenersfor tuning in to this episode
of the Covenant Eyes podcast.
We'll see you next time.
Take care. God bless.
Hey everybody, welcome backto the Covenant Eyes podcast.
It's Karen here,and I am so glad
to have you joining us.
We have got a great showlined up for today.
We have got a special guestjoining us from over the border
in Canada.
We are excitedto have Vern Tompke.
Did I get that right?
Go right now.
Awesome.
Well, welcome to the podcast.
(00:27):
We're so glad to have youjoining us.
It's great to be on.
I love getting to know you guys.
Got to know Rob and Sam as well.
And you guys have been such ablessing in my life.
So I'm just so glad to be here.
Well good.
Well we are excitedto have a conversation
and learn more about the workthat you're doing.
So for our listenersthat are not familiar with you,
(00:48):
or maybe don't listento your podcast or haven't
heard of it yet.
Yeah, talk to us a little bitabout the work that you're doing
in the ministry,that you have as well.
Well, I was, a pastor.
I still am a pastor for35 years.
And, out of myown struggle with porn,
I'm kind of an overshare.
(01:08):
My wife says I'm an overshare.
Karen.
And, I've just kind of beenthe guy.
Whatever I learn and grow inand the comfort and healing
I've received, I just.
I just want to give it away.
Maybe that's every pastorsomething, but most pastors
don't like talkingabout sexual brokenness.
I, I that's notbeen part of my journey.
(01:29):
So my journey coming outof addictions, my journey
coming as a pastor,struggling with porn
has all been a part of my story.
And so coming downto a place of healing,
I developed a couple podcasts.
One of them is calledFinding Traction, which is
basically helping just yourregular Joes with just how to
(01:50):
develop plans, how to look atlife's issues, how to create,
just a better understandingof how to find healing.
And then I also createdthat kind of a parallel podcast
called Pastors on Porn.
Really subtle title, right?
Yeah, yeah.
And that is all arounddealing with issues for pastors,
how to create cultureswithin churches
(02:12):
that are, you know,we're agents of healing.
So kind of all thingschurch related
is pastors on porn.
And then all things individualrelated is finding traction.
Oh my goodness.
Well, you definitely stay busywith two podcasts and totally,
you know, two differentdemographics that your team is.
Well, I love that.
Well, let's start with the workthat you're doing with pastors.
(02:33):
But you know the work hereat Covenant Eyes, we work with a
ton of churches,and we talk to pastors
all the time.
We know that there are pastorsthat are struggling
with pornography.
But, you know, there'sso many reasons for a pastor
not to step forward.
You know, I mean, the cultureof the church sometimes is less
than forgiving.
They don't have a planto help them find restoration.
(02:54):
Their jobs, their families,everything's on the line.
There's a lot at stake.
But also, you know,addressing our sins
and overcoming those issuper important.
So what kind of advicedo you offer to pastors
as you're working with themand through your work
on your podcast?
Well, first of all, I say topastors, it it is hard
(03:15):
to call people into the lightif you're still standing
in the shadows,that that is true.
And every pastor knowsif there's not
a congruence there, itit is such a weight on ministry
to to do that.
I recognize we do live in ain a challenging culture
(03:35):
as as pastors,sometimes people confuse
sexual brokennessor struggles with porn,
for example,with illegal behavior,
which, you know, that that's anentirely different,
you know, thing and or takingadvantage of people
in the congregation.
There is real, honestchurch discipline,
and there's real,honest boundaries
(03:56):
and accountabilitythat needs to happen.
But for your regular pastorlike me, for 2030 years,
I struggledwith sexual brokenness
around porn.
I, I, I could havejust left the ministry
and I know that's what happens.
People quietlyleave the ministry
in the call of Godon their lives
because they're afraidof being found out.
And I just said,is there a better way?
(04:17):
And I fortunatelywas able to remain as a pastor.
I got mentoring, I got helpfrom a variety of sources,
and I am and maybe aunique situation.
I was able to transitionto a place of healing
while remaining a pastor,and that the you know, the great
grace story of that is, Godwas able to use my healing
(04:41):
and the comfort I've receivedto help other people.
And I know that's noteverybody's story,
but I think that'sthe ideal story.
When pastors are addressingtheir own brokenness
and bringing other people alongin the humility
that they're growing in.
That is so powerful and so good.
And that is really the hopethat we can get more pastors
(05:02):
on that path and that journey.
Absolutely.
Talk to us a little bit.
So, you know,through your podcast,
I'm sure thatyou get contacted by
lots of pastors who, you know,definitely know
they want to addressthis, the secret sin
that they've been living with,but they don't know what to do.
What resources and ministriesdo you, partner
(05:23):
with to really help them kind ofget those wraparound services
so that they can navigatethrough this?
Yeah.
And and first thing, I,I don't recommend going public
as a starting thing.
I recommendget some personal help
start dealing.
You know, if you knowI'll sit down with people
and go and I do.
I have a lot of individual callswith pastors.
(05:45):
We meet on a privateyou know, private zoom call,
and I'll just say,tell me your story,
tell me your story.
And as I hear their storyand I start listening
to some of the dynamics,then it's pretty clear.
Do you got do you need to to,work on self-care?
Is this just a question ofof the self-care situation
in your life?
The wheels arestarting to come off
(06:06):
because of a burnout situation.
That's what happened to me.
Karen, at 40 years,at 40 years old, I went through
a significant burnout.
And that's when porncompletely resurfaced
in my life.
I call it my perfect storm.
I was I was by vocational,I was burnt out and I was alone
in a high speed office.
Well, you canget that connection right.
(06:29):
And so, so basically, guy,so many pastors would say,
I have no place to talk to.
I'm workingwith a pastor right now
who's in his 60s.
He's just nearing retirement.
And this is it was a sad story.
He said, you know,I went through
my entire pastoral lifestruggling with porn.
Now that I'm, you know,basically retiring,
(06:51):
I can finally nowshare my story.
And I'm glad he'ssharing his story.
At 60, you know, mid 60s.
But how much morewould God have been able
to redeem his storyand push back against the
enemy's plans if he had finallyfound some hope and healing
earlier on in his ministry,and what the changes
(07:12):
could have beenwith the people he came
in contact with. Wow.
Oh my gosh,that is a really heart
wrenching story. Yeah.
So many pastors, you know,certainly because of the nature
of the work, they carrythe burdens of
their congregation.
They areputting out fires there,
you know, they are burnt out.
They are burning both.
You know, the candle atboth ends, as they say.
(07:35):
And a lot of thatleads to isolation.
They don't havepeople in their lives
that they feel that they canconfide in.
What steps do you recommendto pastors?
You know, I think I believethat we all need
a band of brothersor a sisterhood of sisters
around us, but how do pastorsget to a place where they feel
safe enough to find those peopleand build that that
(07:57):
band of brothers around them?
Well, sometimes it's feel safeand sometimes it's just
the pain becomes so strong.
If you've ever hadan abscess tooth,
I've had two of them.
You know, you will
call a dentist at 11 (08:10):
00 at night and say,
I need to see you.
You will knock on their doorbecause you will go,
I cannot deal with thethe incongruence
in my life any longer.
Yeah.
And and I have, you know,in my situation,
I came to a pointwhere we drove an hour
to get some counselingbecause I just felt
the internal pressureof, you know, the dissonance
(08:33):
in my life.
I couldn't live it any longer.
And I had it, you know, I neededsomeplace to turn.
So I drove to, you know, asex addiction
therapist in Vancouver.
And I begin to.
What's going on with me?
Why I'm in this place.
It's years later. I.
I found a mentor like myself.
His name was Michael Leahy.
Great guy.
Guys to appreciate.
(08:53):
Michael I know Michael.
Yes.
And we work together.
And now I'm able to mentorother pastors to say, maybe I'm
the very first guythat you've talked to somebody
outside of your churchin a safe way.
And we can begin to look atwhat's going on in your life
used, you know, and the classicline is porn is not your main
problem.
(09:14):
It's your favorite solution.
So what do you what are youtrying to solve?
What is going on here.
And it's inthat safe environment
that we can you know,I've had groups of just pastors
who get together because then itthat's some of them.
That's that's what they needto feel safe.
Yeah.
You know, other pastorsgo at it.
That's not as big a dealas long as there's
nobody from my own town for you.
(09:35):
Yeah, right.
So all of those steps are onesthat I know I've worked
with pastors andand I'm hopefully able
to pass on the same,mentoring that I got
from somebody, like,with Michael.
That's amazing.
So talk to us.
You know, on the flip side,you're also, you know,
running a podcastthat really speaks
to the individual,the individual
that is strugglingwith pornography,
(09:57):
maybe in recovery.
So in your work in that space,what are you finding
most helpful and beneficialto the guys?
And gals that may be listeningto your podcast when they're
they're looking for help?
Well, I think it's it's amulti-pronged approach.
I, I really resist sometimes.
(10:17):
I'm a bit of a contrarian,when people say to me,
all you need to dois fill in the blanks.
And, and churches, we've,we've been horrible that way.
You just need to knowyour identity
in Christ character.
You just need to memorizethese verses.
You just need to knowthat you're not a sinner.
You just need, you know,whatever you are,
all you need to do is.
(10:38):
Yeah, I go, well,that's a good thing,
but maybe for you it's somethingdifferent.
You know, the two bigstarting points of this,
I say the guy's number one.
How has doing it on your ownbeen working for you?
Hmm. Good question.
They all go.
Well, it's not.
I've tried, you know, 100 timesto to quit this behavior,
which is hurting me, hurtingthe people I love.
(11:00):
That's the first thing.
And I'll saythe second thing is,
well, tell me how, you know,your willpower has been working.
You know, how is that work?
Because obviously, you you'veyou've purposed and resolved
in your heart 100,000.
You know, how many timesto to end this behavior.
So doing thatalone is not working.
Doing it with willpoweris not working.
(11:20):
So I, I'm a really practical,pragmatic guy.
And I like to saythe very first thing
I want to help you withis how to turn the engine off,
how to get out of this despair,shame cycle, lather,
rinse, repeat, cycle.
And you know you'rebringing your car
into the mechanicand the engine is racing
and there'ssomething wrong with it.
And the mechanic says,well, let's turn the engine off
(11:43):
before he puts his handsin there. Right.
And and so we just work on somepractical things. Okay.
What type of relapsesare you having?
Are they impulse relapses?
You know, it's likehaving a bowl of chips
beside you.
And at the end of the day,magically, they're gone
every day.
You know, it's empty.
And so I say, well, let's getlet's work on
(12:03):
getting screen time.
Let's work on getting CovenantEyes on your phone.
Let's work on some of thesepractical things to put some,
you know, some resistanceand distance between you
and the impulsesthat get you in trouble.
That's why I love Covenant.
You know, peoplego, well, you know,
I really shouldbe able to do it.
I'm a Christian.
I should be able to do it.
I shouldn't need theseexternal crutches
(12:24):
and Covenant Eyesand the I'm saying I need them.
I've been in recoveryfor 15 years.
Yeah, I need them.
And so that's the first thing.
Get the ancient,just the practical plans
in place to create a safeenvironment
with your technology,a safe environment, a plan.
Look at the times of the daythat you struggle or the week
days of the week.
(12:45):
Let's do that first,so you're not endlessly
into self-recriminationdespair shame cycle now.
Now that we've got a little bitof clear thinking,
now that we've gottenrid of some of the brain fog,
now let's begin to lookat some of these other areas.
What are the mistakenbeliefs that you have?
What are the unmet needsthat you're trying to solve
(13:05):
with porn?
What is perhaps I had,Tim Fletcher on,
this last week from,interview a therapist,
and he says, you know,when we talked about
what is the areaof is there trauma?
Is there somethingwhere you attach
to these behaviors?
So, so now that the engine isturned off, let's begin to ask
(13:27):
the underlying.
The deeper questions.
I kind of do it in the twopronged approach.
We look at spirituality.
We look at your relationships.
We look at your habits.
We do all of these things.
It we come at it from manydifferent angles.
And that takes time.
Right, Karen?
So, you know, I mean,it must be maybe it's a
guy's thing.
(13:48):
I don't know, maybe girls,they come to me and in one way
or another they're askingthis question.
Okay, so how quick can we getthis thing turned around.
Right. Yes.
As a first question as well,how many years
have you been working onembedding this,
this habit in your life?
Right.
You know, and is it five,is it ten?
Is it 20?
Isn't that right?
(14:09):
So chances are ifif you've been working
on developing this in your lifeas a way of life,
it's your goal.
Solution.
For every problem you have,every negative emotion you have,
chances are it'sgoing to take time for you
to reverse engineer some of thisand so I mean, that's
why I've developedlike a one year
(14:31):
video course calledFinding Traction to walk people
through that they cando individually, or they can do
with a group of their buddiesor they can do with me.
It takes time. It does.
Yeah, absolutely.
We hear that a lot.
And I mean, we live in a worldthat's all about
instant gratification.
Get things done quickly.
So it's almost embeddedin our nature now.
(14:52):
Like to want things quickly.
But unfortunately,things like recovery,
God can do miracles.
He absolutely canand he can, you know, redeem
you and restore you andin a drop of a hat.
But most of ushave to put in the time
and the work.
And I'm so gratefulthat you called that out,
because often peopleoverlook that and think
this is going to be fast.
(15:13):
So as you work with men I love,I love the fact
that you're a pastor because youtie everything back to,
you know, strong,faith connection,
you know, making surethat they're growing spiritually
as they're unpackingthis addiction.
So talk to us a little bit moreabout some of the the hang ups
and things that people run into.
(15:35):
So maybe they foundsome sobriety
from pornography use,but then they have a relapse.
What do you do for those peoplein those situations?
Because that can be really,really heart wrenching for
someone that's maybebeen in recovery for a year
and now they've reallyfell back in.
Well, and and we startwith saying,
if you're going to starta recovery
(15:56):
on the recovery journey,the very first thing
that's going to bewith you is humility.
You're not going toget quick answers and otherwise
you would be insufferable.
And we all know the personthat just prayed at prayer
and God healed themfrom smoking or or drugs
and you're going, well,that's amazing.
But there is a step in humility.
(16:17):
And the classic lineI say to guys, Karen, is
no matter how far down the roadyou get, you know,
driving your vehicle.
If I could droveall the way to Kentucky,
there's going to be a ditchstill on both sides of the road.
No matter how far I get,it's still there.
And so what we do is to sayto people, number one,
my job is not tomake you feel bad so much.
(16:38):
You know, I know one ofthe questions
and you guys work a lotwith this word accountability.
But the word accountabilityis all about connections.
It's not making you feel bad.
Yeah.
Karen, if if I, if mefeeling bad about my behavior
was the was the reasonfor change.
If the if it wasthe key to change
I would have changed3040 years ago.
(16:59):
Right? Yeah.
And so much of accountabilityjust embeds that shame.
Well, what were you thinking?
Well, we talked about thisor why didn't you call me
all of those kind of things.
And I just say, let's comealongside of you, okay?
What did you learn?
You've developed a plan.
You're responsible.
You know, you're responsiblefor your recovery.
What did you learn fromthat relapse?
(17:21):
What unmet need?
What what practical?
Was there a weak linkin your environment?
What was the was therea strong emotion that you need
better toolsto equip yourself with?
How do we do?
We learn from our failures.
Righteous man fallsseven times, right?
It says in Scripture and and yetin church life we go one fall,
(17:44):
especially in the sexual area,means you're done for.
It's you know, where to restore,you know, Galatians six,
we are to restoreeach other gently.
Yeah. Right.
And so that's you know, I know,I know our groups are working
well when, you know,when people come
in, they had, you know,we do a check in every week
(18:07):
and, you know, red, orange,green kind of stuff.
And if people areare not doing well,
if they skip that week, I knowwe've missed something
in the culture of our group.
Yeah, I don't want togo to that group
because I didn'thave a good week.
If that's if that'speople's response.
That's not a good group.
Right?
Yeah, that's a greatway to look at it I love that
(18:28):
and I think you bring upa good point too.
Like when people, you knowdon't show up to group
or you know, they don't checkin, you know,
your accountabilitypartner, you know, we should
we should reach out to them as,yes, their friends and their
accountability partner.
Because oftentimeswhen you know, we make a mistake
or we fall down, we tend tokind of revert
to that old way of,you know, hiding in that shame.
(18:48):
So as accountabilitypartners and friends,
we need to kind ofdo what's uncomfortable and just
reach out anywaysand let them know that
they're there for him.
I often I was,speaking with somebody and I'm
not sure who it was,but they were talking about,
you know,when you're in recovery
and perhaps you have a youyou fall back into
using pornographyand you have a moment,
(19:09):
you know, you you don'tstart from ground zero.
You pick yourselfback up where you're at
and you keep going.
Because oftentimeswe can think, well,
you know, now I going tostart all over and go through
all this again.
And it's like you,when you build a house,
you know, you're buildingon a foundation and it
maybe you get tothe second floor
and there's somethingyou don't just burn
the whole thing downand start over. Right?
(19:31):
I mean, you just correctthe little what happened
and you take care of thatand you continue building.
So we need to remember thatin our journey.
I think sometimeswe can forget that.
Yes.
You know, we dosometimes have relapse in our,
in our recovery processes,but that doesn't mean
that we can'tkeep moving forward.
So I just want to make surepeople have hope for that.
(19:51):
Talk to me a little bit about,you know, technology.
You know,that's a big one. Yeah.
You know, and sometimes, like Ithe Bible is pretty clear about,
you know, if something'scausing us to sin,
we take some prettyradical action, right?
Sometimes our technologycan just be too much for us.
And I've seen guys, you know,get rid of smartphones.
I've seen them giveflip phones like,
(20:11):
whatever it takes.
But how are you coaching peoplewith their technology?
I know you mentioned CovenantEyes is a great tool.
And for a lot of peoplethat that's the right answer.
But sometimes that's not enoughfor some people, right?
Well, it's it's not an,I, I always can tell this,
this is one ofthe biggest places
where resistance comes upin this process,
(20:34):
because people wantto do recovery, but they don't
want to changetheir environment.
It's a great, greatbook out there
called by Benjamin Hardy calledWillpower Is Not Enough.
And in his book he workswith professional athletes
on other things.
And what he essentially says isyou need to make choices,
but this is the wayyou make choices, subcontract
(20:56):
your willpower to a successfulenvironment.
That is whereyour willpower comes in
to choose the right environment.
That's what you dowith athletes.
Their environment is all crucialatomic habits.
And I love learning fromanother great book.
That's a great book to make.
To break a habit,you have to make it invisible,
unattractive, difficult,and unsatisfying.
(21:18):
And I and I say to guys, okay,you know what?
There's different typesof relapses, but the one that
always got me in troublewas the impulse,
the impulse relapse.
And I need some friction.
I need some distance.
So I for example, here'shere's a little,
you know, example.
My wife right now teacheselementary school.
We have maybe five devicesin our house
(21:41):
that could access pornor access material.
You know what all five of thosehave in common?
They all have a remote controland I make a pre-comp
every night.
I make a pre-commitment.
I take responsibility.
That's that's trueaccountability.
And every night when we're donewatching TV, I pick up
all the remotes.
I hand them, I hand the boxto my wife, and she throws
(22:02):
all the remotesinto the little clear
box and spins the dial.
And I don't think about it all.
The next day, my smart TVs,they're my fours.
They're my this, my that.
I have made a pre-commitmentto subcontract my willpower
to a successful environment.
I am. Awesome.
(22:22):
And that's where,you know, screen time on
my iPhone is a life saver.
That's where CovenantEyes is a life saver.
You know, the thingthat changed it for me
was the fact that that peopleare going to see
I had a problem foreverwith Google Images.
Well, now you know.
Now Google Images.
I know I have 2or 3 accountability buddies
(22:44):
that they'regoing to see things.
I love the fact thatthere's always somebody
in the room with memetaphorically talking, talking,
talking about technology.
I do want to address somethingwhich I've worked with guys now
for a dozen years or so.
This is a big changecarried over the
last 2 or 3 years.
I say to guys, do you realizehow much things have changed
(23:05):
in the last 2 to 3 years?
People are nowusing social media in exactly
the same waythey used to use porn.
And when guys check in with me,I often get this.
Well, it wasn't porn.
Technically.
Whenever somebody usethe word technically, I know,
I don't know what's going on,you know, and, and and they're
(23:27):
relating to Instagram.
They're relatingto YouTube shorts, Facebook X,
whatever the shorts clips. Yeah.
They all have different words.
Yeah.
But but they're using itin exactly the same way
to exactly the same effect.
And that is where the technologyhas really changed.
(23:48):
And we've just had to sayI have two challenges.
I say to my new guys,I want you to do two things.
Number one,for the first 60 days,
I want you to connectwith somebody every day
until you get 60 daysclean time.
That's the one rule.
Like, you know,Lord of the rings,
the One Ring to rule,the one rule to rule them all.
You're going to connectwith somebody
every day for 60 days.
(24:09):
The rule number twois you're going to get rid
of all social media for 60 daysuntil you could 60 days
and those.
And then I know immediatelywhat kind of well, I was kind of
hoping to do this recovery,you know, a bit at a time
without these strong, you know,if you're if this
causes you to sin.
Right.
(24:29):
So but but technologyis changing.
That's not even getting intovirtual three.
You know all of that.
We're just yeah. No.
But that is absolutely crucial.
And guys go well.
And you occasionally gettherapists and others
saying, well, you know, Karen,if we really dealt
with the real and, you know,the real issues
of trauma and all this,we wouldn't
(24:49):
have to deal with that.
Why why do wewhy can't two things
be true at once?
Yeah. Agreed. Right.
So yeah.
There you go.
There you go. Yeah.
No, I think that's great.
And I think we often forget thatthe algorithms on social media
and often like when I'mtalking to parents,
I try to explain this to them.
These platforms are all free.
They're not free because metaand Mark Zuckerberg love us,
(25:13):
and they just want to give ussomething free because they care
about us.
They they give it to us.
Free because they are designedto market and manipulate you
to do something that they wantyou to do, whether it's
buy products, get into porn,you know, go down the rabbit
trails, you know,social isolation,
whatever it is like.
We have to be more carefulwith even social media
(25:35):
because it is so easy to get,especially for men online.
The algorithm will suck you in.
So even though you're like,well, I'm
just, you know, watchinghunting and fishing.
Yeah, yeah, but how long beforeall of a sudden videos are being
recommended to youbecause they want to
draw you into that.
So yeah, I love thatyou're asking them
to take that 60 daypause. That's so smart.
(25:57):
And I think it's smartfor all of us to take a break
from social media like,you know, fast from it for,
you know, a given period of timebecause it is so addictive
and leads us intoall different places.
Thank you.
That was really good.
So one other Covenant Eyesexample, there's a couple
news sites that constantlygot me into trouble.
I won't say which ones they are,but you probably can
(26:17):
guess I can't.
Yeah, yeah.
And I just said that's it.
Fool me once.
Shame on you.
Fool me twice, shame on me.
That new siteis now on my covenant list.
Yeah, get my new somewhere else.
Thank you very much.
Exactly.
Yeah, I mean,that's a radical step,
but you know what?
That is the right thing to do.
I mean, if it causes you toto sin like. Absolutely.
So, let's talk a little bit.
(26:39):
Let's go back into the churchspace and, you know, the church.
You know, there was Barna statsover dropped last year.
You know, 10% of churcheshave programs
to address pornography,which is an improvement
from the one that we didin 2016, but not by much,
because 77%.
Yeah. That's right.
So there's a lot of workthe church really needs to do
(27:00):
in this space.
But, you know, there's there'sa lack of information,
a lack of knowledge.
You know, some pastorsare struggling, so it's hard
for them to, you know,bring that to the table.
What can we do as a church,the big Seed church,
on this topic to make someheadway with this
issue and help people?
I, I, I don't think we'reever going to get very far
(27:25):
if we're not willingto platform brokenness.
And what I mean by that is myI that's why I love, you know,
with the broken guysand Jonathan Doherty
and all of that.
Yeah, I love the nameof their ministry.
Because my thing is, all of usexperienced brokenness.
All of us experienced brokennessfrom the enemy
(27:48):
in a myriad of different ways.
It's not just sexual brokenness.
It's not, you know, and if we'rejust fixated on
sexual brokenness, it's what skyjust any crutch.
Christianity, if we're ifthat's what we're fixated on,
then people that struggle inthat area go, obviously there's
something abnormal with me.
(28:08):
And and that's why you're going,does that mean that every pastor
needs to havea story of recovery
from sexual brokenness?
No. Obviously.
But but it means to be ableto have key leaders talk about
their healing.
You know, it could be fromfood addict, you know,
food addictions.
It could be fromeating disorders.
It could be from,you know, pornography.
(28:30):
It could be all of that.
Whenever, whenever we'rewe're unwilling to do that.
Then here'sthe dichotomy. Karen.
It feels like churchSunday morning
is for successful.
Got it together people.
People on the platform of peoplewhose lives I want to be like
because they don't strugglewith the things I struggle with
(28:52):
and and the porn struggler.
And two out of fiveyoung women struggle
with porn as well.
From that survey,the porn struggles.
There's there's somethinguniquely wrong
and broken with me.
And of course,they stay in silence.
And I put that at the feetof our church cultures
and our leaders.
Now, I know there's there's,you know, people are
(29:13):
freaked out on legal stuff.
But you know what?
I just say we do.
Our people such a disservice.
And, you know, and II'm, I understand,
you know, there'sthere's great groups
like Pure Desireand Celebrate Recovery,
for example.
But that can bedone one of two ways
it can be done here is theabnormal group
(29:35):
for abnormal people.
Yeah.
You go there,but it's also done.
I've also seen it donewell, like the hospital
church movement and otherswhere it's integrated
into the life of the church.
I just don't want itto be marginalized
because when it'syeah, that's my fear.
With how some programsare being implemented.
(29:56):
I think you're right.
And I thinkthat doesn't actually get talked
to a lot aboutbecause you're right,
we all have brokennessin some shape or form.
And it may not necessarily bepornography, but whatever it is,
we all come to the crosswith our brokenness and our sin.
And so I think that's a reallyfascinating conversation
that the church really needsto have internally
(30:17):
and talk abouthow do we create that,
that culture where it'sokay to be broken,
but we don't stayin our brokenness.
Right?
Christ died for our sins,and we can move through that.
So I love that topic.
That's really good.
Well, have,you know, in your work
you probably see some churchesthat are doing this
right and well, so what are someexamples maybe of churches
(30:38):
that you've seen or leadersthat are really delivering
on this idea of younot just talking about
maybe sexual brokennessor pornography use,
but just brokenness in general,and that the
the church is a safe,healing place.
Well, I know inSam Black's book, he,
he interviewed James Reeve.
I've talked.
Yeah. Interviewed James.
That was very good.
(30:58):
I'm so thrilled.
A good a Scottish pastor,friend of mine, large,
multi-site church.
He's one of thethe site pastors.
He created the video,I call it Dave Story where he's
one of the pastors.
And he he shared about the timethat he first
shared his struggle with pornwith his wife and, and,
and what an impact, you know,that began a process.
(31:20):
So so it's Dave story undermy name on YouTube.
It's so encouraging.
And that started using,you know, they began groups
and began to work with menout of his courage
in that place.
Yes, of course,it needs to be navigated
with the board and with leaders.
But I, I think, I think fearkeeps us captive, Karen.
(31:41):
I think fear we're afraid.
And I thinkthe enemy is a bully.
He loves to keep us in fear.
And so many peoplewould walk out of the shadows
in their lives.
If we as leaders,have the courage to walk
out of the shadows ourselves,we're supposed to be as leaders.
We're supposed to be the oneto take the first step.
I think that'swhat leadership is.
(32:03):
Yeah.
And so obviously there's wisdomin how we do that.
But, so my Scottish part,there's, there's
a few, Garrett calls,I'm going to
interview him coming up.
And, Fabulous.
Part of my, my, my goalwith the pastor on porn one
is to highlight churchesthat have been courageous
in this area.
That's kind of where I'mmoving the podcast to,
(32:25):
to say, here's an example.
You know, I love.
That.
Everybody didn'trun out of the church
when he sharedhis brokenness. Right?
So we're starting,but we're still
got a lot of work to gowhere 90% of churches,
leave a lot of roomfor growth. Right?
Absolutely.
Well, I love thatyou're adding that
to your podcast.
So our listeners like,definitely check out the podcast
(32:46):
so that you can hearthose stories.
Because oftenwe find that, you know,
somebody has to go first, right?
And there's already peoplegoing first.
So there are things that we canlearn and from, and hopefully
they'll share the mistakesthey've made
as well as the wins, because welearned through all of that.
So I I'm so grateful to hearthat you're going to have that
on your podcastthat we can learn from
(33:07):
and grow with.
So speaking of your podcast,both of them,
how do our listeners find bothof those podcasts
so that they can take a listenand we'll make sure
we drop thoseinto the show notes as well.
The two podcastthe one for pastors is called
Pastors on Porn.
These are all onthe regular podcast apps.
The second one is calledFinding Traction
Recovery from porn.
(33:27):
And there you'll getinformation on how to get
onto the circlelearning platform that I run,
where you can get access tolots of free worksheets,
get accessto the groups, and also,
I have a 52 week video coursethat people can
take individually or with otherpeople as well.
So oh, that's the way to do it.
Awesome.
And then do you have a websiteas well?
(33:49):
It's it's BandOfBrothers.caredot C-A-R-E.
So BandOfBrothers plural .care.
Perfect. All right.
Well, listeners, we'll make surewe put all those
in the show notesso you can get back
to those easy and quick.
Vernon has been such a joyto speak with you today.
Thank you for your courageand sharing your testimony,
and really just deliveringthese two powerful podcasts
(34:12):
that really open upthis issue to a wide
audience and and bring them hopeand give them, you know, wisdom
from your own experiences.
Thank you so much.
And I want to thank CovenantEyes, literally,
I owe such a huge debtof gratitude to Covenant Eyes
and your guys's faithfulnessin my recovery.
(34:32):
So thank you guys.
Well, thank you.
And thank you, listenersfor tuning in to this episode
of the Covenant Eyes podcast.
We'll see you next time.
Take care. God bless.
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