June 19, 2024 • 46 mins
While on sabbatical (yes, I'm taking my own advice), we are replaying podcasts where our brave guests tell their journey into and out of burnout. You won't want to miss these as there's always something to learn from others, right?
This episode, Rev. Eden Avalos shares a story of emotional fatigue. His candid recount of seeking therapy and restructuring his life offers a beacon of hope and practical advice for ministry leaders navigating similar challenges.
Eden's journey didn't end there; it took him through a tumultuous interim period and even a factory job, all while grappling with feelings of being undervalued and emotionally drained. His time in manual labor, fraught with physical discomfort, became a space for deep introspection and mental fortitude. This episode reveals the profound insights Eden gained on the necessity of a stable, fulfilling career and how personal space contributes to mental health and ministry sustainability.
Let this discussion inspire you to cultivate a balanced, resilient approach to your calling, ensuring you can thrive and go the distance with God's plans.
This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.
Contact info:
Email me at crabbypastor@gmail.com with your input and ideas for burnout and leadership topics of interest or if you know someone who might be interesting to interview.
Visit my website:
YOUR LEADERSHIP COACH FOCUSED ON BURNOUT PREVENTION
Get your FREE Burnout Symptoms test to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE.
CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT SYMPTOMS TEST.
I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.
And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.
Blessings on your journey!
Margie
🦀 🦀 🦀
Find regular support on my Facebook group: Building Sustainability in Ministry Leaders: Beating Burnout.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Margie (00:01):
Hey there, Margie Bryce, here bringing you the Crabby
Pastor podcast, and I don'tthink you're going to be too
surprised to know that it's tooeasy today to become the Crabby
Pastor.
Our time together will give youfood for thought to help you be
the ministry leader fullysurrendered to God's purposes
(00:24):
and living into whatever ittakes to get you there and keep
you there.
So we're talking aboutsustainability in ministry and
today's episode of the CrabbyPastor podcast and I want to
welcome you all this is MargieBryson.
(00:47):
I am your host talking aboutall things self-care for
ministry leaders and someleadership issues, because you
know the first line ofleadership is to be able to lead
yourself well, and sometimesyou know we have that intention
going into ministry, butsometimes the demands of the
(01:10):
task that we have been given geta little overwhelming or we get
a little entrenched in them andit takes us to the place of
burnout, which is the placebeyond.
A nap will just fix this kindof realm.
So I have visited that place andI always appreciate people who
(01:33):
are willing to come on thepodcast and share their back
from burnout stories, because weall can learn from one another
as we go along here, and today Ihave Reverend Eden Avalos with
me and I met him at adevelopment session in San Diego
for coaches, so he's a coach aswell, and he shared his burnout
(01:57):
story and I was interestedbecause I could tell he was a
30-something person.
So I like to have the youngerpeople on to learn from one
another and to benefit and togrow.
So I'm going to let Edenintroduce himself.
Tell us a bit about who you areand what you're doing these
(02:18):
days.
Eden (02:19):
My name is Eden Avalos.
I am in Indiana.
I came from New Mexico.
I've been in youth ministry,primarily here in Indiana.
Before this I was kind of thecatch-all, be-all pastor and I
had different titles.
I mean, I did a lot of youthministry, I did a lot of
(02:39):
associate work, I did a lot ofoutreach work During COVID, I
did a lot of media work.
So it was kind of, you know,whatever the need was at the
time, that was my position.
But here in Indiana it'sprimarily been one thing.
It's just been youth ministryand associate to the pastor of
just whatever he needs.
If he's on vacation, I'm incharge.
(03:00):
If he is in a meeting, I'm incharge, kind of a thing.
So it's been different.
This is my first full-timeposition I've done.
You know there's no such thingas part-time ministry.
It's the first time where Ionly have to do this.
This is the only thing I haveto do, and so before it was
youth ministry and somethingelse.
(03:20):
It was youth ministry and realestate or ministry and working
in a factory, ministry and, youknow, photography or yard work,
whatever.
Whatever I needed to do to makeends meet was my former life,
whereas now it's just this isall I have to do, and everything
outside of ministry is justsomething I want to do, so it's
(03:42):
a good combination.
Margie (03:43):
Now, Okay, so you talked about your visit to burnout and
I guess I'm curious when youfirst got the inkling that
something was off.
Eden (03:57):
The first time must have been.
I think we were going on ayouth trip to San Diego again
and I remember reaching the topof the hill and looking over the
water and I was just thinkinglike this has to be the last
time I do this trip, like Idon't want to do this anymore.
(04:17):
I'm tired.
And I enjoyed that trip thoughit's always a fun event.
I always have had fun with thekids but I was just done with it
.
I was just.
I just didn't want to keepgoing.
And then from that point on, Istill did it one more time, but
the last time I did it I wasjust.
I was in a whole different placementally, a darker place
(04:40):
mentally, and it was that it wasthat first time where I was
just getting to the point whereI had just so much going on, I
was being pulled in too manydifferent directions and now I
had to go on this trip.
And so I think that is like thebeginning of when I was
starting to think like I have tofigure something out.
But in that I needed to get outof ministry was my thought
(05:03):
process.
But when my wife got pregnantis when I did a self-reflection,
a self-analysis, and I lookedat just my life and I thought I
can't be a father effectivelywith all this going on.
I have to fix this.
(05:23):
With all this going on, I haveto fix this.
And so that's when I went intotherapy and really just started
narrowing down on these thingsand did the work that the
therapist was recommending.
And during that time it was justnot.
It was just wasn't great atwork because I was going through
an interim phase and myself andthe other and the youth pastor
(05:46):
took on the interim position fora year, about a year.
It was during COVID and it was.
It was at a legacy church, youknow, a church that had a very
prominent position and myfather-in-law was the pastor
that was there before me andwhen he retired he kind of we
(06:07):
took it on and it was a very,just, very difficult time.
We didn't know what was goingon, we didn't know how the
election process was going.
We just kind of were it kind ofput into a corner.
But then when the new pastorwas elected, they hired this
great guy.
I still love the guy, he's agreat pastor and I committed I'm
(06:32):
going to serve under him for aminimum of one year and then if
something opens up, I'll stepout.
And something opened up and so Istepped out after a year,
wanting to stay there, but Istepped out.
I stepped out just because,being related to the former
pastor and being, you know, kindof, I felt like I was carrying
(06:54):
that legacy into the church,just being related to the former
pastor, and so I felt like Iwas doing a disservice to the
current pastor and so I had to.
I stepped out.
But my family is all back homein New Mexico and so it was a
difficult decision to come outhere.
But I felt like I was in abetter place mentally to and
(07:15):
physically and emotionally tocome out here and pastor
alongside my current pastor.
But the first inkling was thatI just realized I can't keep
going in a hundred differentdirections at a hundred miles an
hour and I need something,needs something, has to give,
because it's going to break.
And then it, and then it justdid break.
Margie (07:36):
So when you say it, it did break, what exactly describe
for us what what that lookedlike?
Eden (07:44):
Yeah, so it wasn't like one moment.
It was a series of momentswhere, right after COVID, right
after we got shut down sorry, no, let me backtrack Right after I
took on the interim role and Ididn't take it on by myself, but
I'll just, without includingthe other pastor I took on the
interim, interim role and thefirst thing we had to do was a
(08:07):
funeral for one of my teenagerswho had committed suicide and so
that kind of put me in atailspin and nobody checked in
on us.
Nobody checked in.
You know how are you handlingthis?
I was checking in on the family, I was checking in on the kids,
(08:28):
on the other people that youknow were affected by this, but
nobody was just checking in onme.
My wife was checking in on me,but I wasn't giving her
everything, I wasn't telling hereverything, because I just had
learned at that point you bottleeverything up, so how old were
you at that point?
Margie (08:45):
I'm so bad with age I think I was just had learned at
that point.
You bottle everything up.
So how old were you at thatpoint?
Eden (08:47):
I'm so bad with age.
I think I was 28.
Okay, I have no idea, I'mcurrently 32, but only because I
just remembered yesterday thatI'm 32.
So I'm not exactly sure of ages.
But it was a few months rightbefore COVID hit, so it was
March of 2020.
A few months before, that iswhen, is when it was when this
(09:08):
all happened, and then, and thenit hit, and then it just went,
you know just terribly.
Margie (09:14):
Oh it was it was, that was, was, would you say.
This is accurate, that thesuicide of the teenager was
maybe the straw that broke thecamel's back for you, or just
put you over the edge?
Eden (09:30):
I would say I would say that it I had.
I was at capacity or rightbefore capacity and this came on
and but then it just keptpiling up.
After that four capacity andthis came on and but then it
just kept piling up after that.
And so I guess, I guess, Iguess it could have been I I'm
not sure exactly I'd have tolook at my journal of of, just
(09:51):
because, surprisingly, I I'vekept the journal for the past,
you know, six years, eventhrough burnout, and it's kind
of dark to read through becauseyou're like what is going on in
this guy's life?
Or a couple years ago it was,it was I was just saying like
today was terrible, today wasterrible, today was okay, today
was terrible, today was terrible.
Um, so I I could back track andkind of see where it all really
(10:14):
fell apart, but it it could havebeen that that that kind of
pushed me over, but I had a lotgoing in.
I I had a lot that I was justtolerating, that I was ignoring
a lot of the, not to speak illof anyone.
But people don't appreciate theinterim pastor, the associate
(10:39):
pastor, the youth pastor, asmuch as they appreciate the
senior pastor and so pastor, theyouth pastor, as much as they
appreciate the senior pastor.
And so, even though during theinterim period we didn't lose a
single member, we didn't haveany major fights, we didn't have
any major breakouts, that wasnever acknowledged, that was
never.
Margie (10:58):
That you were holding the fort together.
Basically, Right.
Eden (11:01):
Plus doing our own jobs of our individual ministry, plus
doing our bivocational jobs tomake ends meet.
And so I think the moment thatI realized I can't do this
anymore is when, like at the endof the interim period, when
they had elected the new, thecoming senior pastor, they said
(11:23):
we'd like to now thank PastorEden and the other pastor for
their pulpit supply for the lastyear.
And I was.
I just that moment broke mebecause I was like, oh, the
pulpit supply, that's all we did.
Pulpit supply, okay, that'sgood.
I'm glad nothing else gotnoticed.
I'm glad that you know thatthat's what I'm known for is
(11:43):
pulpit supply.
And so that moment is the onewhere I was just like this isn't
going to work, like I can't dothis, I'm not doing this, and
that's when around that time iswhen I was, when I I started
going to therapy and and reallyI just broke down with my wife
and just told her like this is,this has gotten pretty bad, this
is not a good, I'm not in agood place and I need help, and
(12:07):
so that's that's, that's thestart of it.
And then going through therapyand going through the things
that my counselor was telling me, kind of getting that shift in
perspective helped me out a lot.
And then still on theordination track, still doing
the all the things that you'rerequired to do for ordination,
and so I took an assessment oncefor one of the requirements.
(12:30):
It was a psychologicalassessment and the person doing
the analysis saw my report andwas like are you in therapy?
You might need to be in therapybecause it seems like you're
going through a lot of trauma.
You've done, you've dealt witha lot.
You need to, you've you need toget these things sorted out.
And I told him like yeah, I'mactually currently in therapy,
(12:53):
and so he kind of I think he waslike okay, well, if you're as
long as you're working on thesethings, I think you'll be fine.
In my report I just saw a lot ofpotentially dangerous things
that I just was ignoring.
I was just not paying attentionto myself, I wasn't paying
attention to my body telling meslow down, stop, stop worrying
(13:16):
about all of these things all atonce.
But I had no solutions.
I had no.
There was nothing that I coulddo at the time.
It was weird.
And then, but then doorsstarted opening.
People were offering mepositions, and at first it was,
(13:36):
they were all positions thatwere worse than the position
that I was at.
Margie (13:40):
They were worse, meaning you knew you'd end up running
hard and fast on the hamsterwheel with a heavy load.
Eden (13:46):
Right, exactly Like worse.
And it's not about the money,but it was not enough money, and
it was.
It was I knew I'd have to go toget the ministry job plus do a
whole other job, a whole othercareer, or my wife would have to
do that and my daughter wouldhave to be put in daycare, and
we just weren't negotiating thatwe or my wife would have to do
that and my daughter would haveto be put in daycare, and we
(14:06):
just weren't negotiating that.
We're just, we weren't going todo that.
Not that there's anything wrongwith daycare, we just didn't
want to do that.
And so we, we, we kept gettingoffers like this and I just kept
thinking like this just isn'tworking, I don't think there's,
I don't think there's anythingfor me.
And so I started at a company,just at a factory, just thinking
(14:29):
I'll work my way up.
And it's not, it was a, it wasa.
Faith comes by hearing, and soI'm not sure if you or your
listeners are familiar, but it'sjust, they put audio Bibles
together, and so that's that'swhat I did, was I?
I went there with, you know,with a master's degree, with, at
that point, you know, 10 yearsof of pastoral experience, army
(14:51):
experience, and.
I got a factory job and it was.
It was helpful getting to sitthere and just put these things
together for eight hours a day,because I got to listen to
audiobooks, I got to listen tothe bible, I got to listen to
podcasts and I was able to do alot of deep work during that
(15:12):
that time that I wasn'texpecting to do.
I thought like I'm just goingto go in and I'm going to start
a new career and I'm going towork my way up in this company.
But then within the company,all the positions that were
interesting to me were gettingtaken up and I asked my boss I
was like, why am I being passedover?
(15:32):
And she said, well, you have tobe here for a year before we
can recommend you for anotherposition.
And all the positions weregetting filled and there's not a
high turnover rate at thatcompany at those positions.
And so I was like so I have tobe here for a year doing this
sitting.
And it was physically demandingbecause the tables, all the
(15:53):
factory, was set up for shorterpeople and I'm, you know, six
foot two and so I'm kind of likeleaned over like this putting
these things together, and sophysically I was in a lot of
pain and I thought I can't dothis for a year and then hope
for a position later, and so Iended up just having to quit and
and and and was just waitingfor something to open up.
(16:16):
Um, I was still selling realestate at the time, but it was.
I was getting burnt out from itbecause of all the I like that
business, but I didn't.
I don't think I was in ahealthy place mentally to be
doing it well, and so I wasn'ttrying as hard.
I was still getting sales and Iwas still able to make money
(16:38):
with it, but it wasn't.
It just wasn't ideal, and so wehad to my wife and I just had
to make a lot of shifts.
We were living with familyduring this time and we just
realized like we need our ownspace, and so we got an
apartment that we could barelyafford.
But we had money in savings andso we got the apartment just to
(16:59):
hopefully figure something out,just hopefully something will
come our way and this will getresolved.
And we were there for, I think,eight months and it was just a
haven.
It was just a safe, warm placethat we got to be together,
alone, and it made thedifference, getting to just to
(17:22):
be alone as our little family,because at that point my
daughter, when she was born, shewas born and we were living
with family, and so she moved inwith family and not that that's
wrong or bad, it's just itdidn't work.
It is Everyone's on top of eachother.
Everyone's, we're sharing akitchen, we're sharing all these
(17:44):
things.
Everyone's, we're sharing akitchen, we're sharing all these
things.
And it was a good time, but Iwas not in the place to enjoy it
as I could have.
I just I had a lot of deep workthat I needed to do, that I had
not done, and so so how?
Margie (17:58):
how long was your?
Well?
First, let's back up.
How did you find this therapist?
What?
What was the process in comingto find somebody that you felt
you could work with?
Eden (18:11):
So that was a miracle of God.
The office that I called it wasjust a Christian counseling
office that was down the street.
And I called and asked you knowhow much is it, do you have any
availability?
And they said we don't haveanybody available right now, but
we do have interns that areavailable.
Are you willing to meet with anintern?
And at that point I was justdesperate.
(18:32):
I said I'll meet with thejanitor, I don't care, like just
any anyone, whoever you have isgood.
And so I, I met with mycounselor, uh, that first time,
and I was hesitant going inbecause a lot of what my not a
lot, but a good chunk of what myproblem was was theological
(18:52):
understandings of, like what isgoing on in the world and why
can't I make sense of it and whydoes it seem to be inconsistent
with theology, with justworldview.
And I was hoping that I wouldget somebody who was like-minded
, who had similar theologicalunderstandings.
(19:14):
And I knew that that was a highorder, because most counselors
have to have master's.
I mean, all counselors have tohave master's degrees and that's
a high degree to get.
And so I thought like I don'tthink that most counselors get
theological training, but let'sjust see what happens.
And I go and I meet with thisintern and he was a former
(19:34):
pastor and he had a formerpastor and he had a master's
degree in theology and wasgetting his master's degree in
counseling and it was just, hewas a line of rescue that got
sent because our theologicalbeliefs were very similar.
We had a very similar upbringing, very similar background, and
(19:58):
he was able to walk me through alot of the things that we went
through because he had walkedthrough them and so he was a
godsend.
It was truly a miracle that Godeven orchestrated that, because
I could have ended up with theother person.
You know that that would havebeen something different and it
probably would have helped still, but this, the, the gentleman
(20:21):
that I that I was with, uh, justcompletely helped me, recenter
myself on the practice, thebasic practices, you know, the,
the Jesus prayer, the it was alot of.
It was Greek Orthodox, so a lotof it was just recentering on
the fact of that.
God is powerful, god is moving,god has the ability to, to
(20:45):
change these things and, youknow, with the help of therapy
it's just compounds and I justtook on spiritual practices of,
you know fasting, of praying,you know working out.
It's not necessarily a spiritualpractice, but it is a practice
that I think, is important, andso I kind of hobbled together
(21:07):
these things and it made a hugedifference.
And at this point now I'm onthe side where I'm no longer
underground, I'm no long like.
The fire has already been putout, it's been cleaned out,
everything's been pulled out.
Now I'm just building up.
Margie (21:24):
Okay, how long about?
How long of a process was thisfor you?
Eden (21:29):
I think it's been about four years.
If I were to put a number on it, I'd say about four to five
years.
It's been about closer to four,I think 44 years of total of
from the beginning stages to now.
It's been about four.
Margie (21:46):
And what would you say are the top things you learned
along the way that would behelpful say to our audience
along the way that would behelpful.
Eden (21:56):
say to our audience Realize that if you need help,
you need help.
Don't put it off, because itcan go bad really quick.
If you have trauma in your lifethat is unaddressed, it needs
(22:16):
to be addressed.
If you have self-deprecationissues which I have, I still
have, I still it's.
My tendency is toself-deprecate.
But if you are a person thatdoes that, that is not going to
help.
Living in shame is not going tohelp.
Margie (22:32):
It just makes it significantly worse and worse,
and so and how would youdescribe self-deprecating, in
case somebody wants a littlemore unpacking on that?
Eden (22:43):
Anything I do, I do it wrong.
If I cured cancer tomorrow, Iwould have taken too long, I
would have done it wrong, Iwould have been over budget.
I would have been over budget.
I always find a way to teardown what I do.
Regardless of what I do orregardless of how well I do it,
I can do something extremelywell.
Look at it and go eh, it wasn'tthat hard, actually, anyone can
(23:08):
do it.
Just recently I was talkingabout education through high
school.
All of my teachers none of myteachers encouraged me to go to
college because they didn'tthink I could make it, and so I
was just of the belief that I'mjust not going to college.
I have to figure something elseout.
But I had one teacher who saidyou need to go like if you want
(23:29):
to go, you can make it like that, you shouldn't let that slow
you down.
And that one teacher made adifference and I didn't, you
know, enroll in college until Iwas 21, 22.
So I was older than the otherstudents, but I had a calling on
my life, and so I believe thatI needed to go to college.
In my first semester I wasnervous, I was terrified, but I
(23:53):
did it.
And then I thought, okay, well,I can, I can do another one,
and I can do another one.
Then I got my bachelor's degreethen and I'm like, well, let's
see if I can do a master'sdegree.
And I got my master's degreeand then when I graduated with
my master's degree, I looked atall of my education and I went,
if I could do it, then anyonecan do it.
So it wasn't that hard, itclearly wasn't that difficult,
(24:16):
and so I just tore it down.
I just thought, like, I don'teven have I still don't even
have my degrees hanging on thewall, because it's just that
that's my habit is like, oh, ifI did it, it's anyone, anyone's
capable of doing it, and rightnow it's just because I haven't
done it.
Margie (24:29):
I will put them up at some point, but I just don't
have.
Eden (24:32):
I don't know where they are.
Margie (24:33):
We just moved, so yeah, so anything else words of wisdom
besides, if you to get helpquickly, to realize I need help
and to go after that and and ifyou know that you have trauma or
you know that you have quirksabout how you perceive yourself,
(24:56):
how you perceive life and justyour general mindset, is there
any other words of?
Eden (25:02):
wisdom that you'd offer.
Ultimately, just take itseriously.
If you've decided to call outand you get help, take what they
say seriously.
Don't just kind of process itmentally and think, oh just,
yeah, sure, that's great, do thework.
Do the work because otherwiseyou're just putting a Band-Aid
(25:22):
on the issue and you're notgetting to the symptoms, you're
not actually healing, you'rejust masking and you're ignoring
.
And you have to do a life shift,a complete shift, to get out of
burnout successfully, to getout of that mindset successfully
.
You have to change everythingbecause if you keep, the reason
(25:45):
you got there is because all ofyour habits led you to that.
It's not a random thing thatwas just dealt to you.
It's the way you process, theway you engage, the way you do.
All of those things led you tothat, and so if you want to get
out of that, you have to undoall the things you were doing,
(26:06):
and it takes a long time.
It's be patient with yourself,be kind to yourself, give
yourself rest, give yourselfbreaks because you're going to
need them overall.
You're going to need them.
If you don't, you're just goingto end up back in the same
place as you were before.
I actively have to tell myselfno, you don't need another job.
(26:29):
No, you shouldn't start abusiness.
No, you don't.
That like what you're doing isyou're panicking, and so like I
have to understand when I startgetting uneasy.
I have to understand well, whatis the source of this, where is
this coming from and what am Itrying to ignore, and that I
mean.
That helps a lot to do that andthat's a level of
(26:50):
self-awareness which which Ithink, boy, there should be
courses on just that.
Especially for path.
Margie (27:00):
At all levels, at all levels of education there should
be.
You know, why am I doing this?
Why is this annoying me?
Why does that congregate annoyme?
You know and you could find out.
Oh my gosh, he reminds me of mybrother, right?
Eden (27:14):
annoy me, you know, and you could find out.
Margie (27:15):
Oh my gosh, he reminds me of my brother, you know, my
brother makes me nuts, you know,and at least coming asking
those kinds of questions, whatdo you do differently now?
How does your life lookdifferently now than before?
Eden (27:29):
I, I'm trying to.
I, I do my best to be moreintentional about enjoying
things, and while that's stillhard, I intentionally try to
enjoy things Like vacations.
I grew up, you know, I'm animmigrant, my parents are
immigrants, and so, growing upas an immigrant, you learn to
work, and we never vacationed askids.
(27:52):
We went on vacations, but theywere work vacations, they were
work trips, and so my dad, mymom, they don't know how to rest
, they don't know how to stop,and therefore I don't know how
to stop, I don't know how torest.
I never, you know, we nevertook time off.
And so even when I was at mylast church vacay I think I took
(28:17):
three vacations in seven years,and those vacations were still.
I still was doing homeworkduring those, or I was, I was
still answering phone calls, orI was still, you know, checking
email or whatever.
It was, just to keep thingsgoing.
Margie (28:33):
But and that's a boundary, that's a boundary
issue.
You probably learned that.
Yeah, I did.
Eden (28:37):
And in some vacations, like some trips, I would say
like I'm on break from ministrybut I still have to do real
estate.
Or I'm on break from real estatebut I still am waiting on a
call from a pastor or something,and so, like the unfortunate
reality is bivocational pastorsdon't have that luxury to turn
(28:59):
those things off all of them atonce, because the timing is just
not always good.
But for those that get to dothis full time, you have to set
those boundaries, because if youdon't, people are looking for
your boundaries and they're notdoing it in a cynical way,
they're just they need people,need people and the pastor just
(29:20):
happens to be one of the mostaccessible people to get.
And so if the pastor doesn'thave good boundaries, the
congregants understand well, Ican just go to him, go to her
regardless.
I know they on vacation, but Ireally need to know whether or
not I should eat this thing orwhether and it's all most of it
is petty things.
(29:41):
A lot of it is petty things.
But every now and then you know, of course there has to be a
limit, be ignored.
But if you're, if you're, ifyou're allowing the little
things to bother you, whenyou've set those boundaries,
then you've not really set anyboundaries, and people are going
(30:02):
to continue to bring thoselittle things to you, and so you
condition the people around youwith your boundaries.
Margie (30:10):
And you said it way nicer than I would just say you
train them, you got to trainthem, Right right, train them up
, right you know, Right, butyeah, if you don't train them,
if you don't condition them toknow like these are my
boundaries, you need to respectthem.
Eden (30:26):
they're going to go past them because they think they
need you.
Margie (30:32):
And they don't know any better.
Eden (30:42):
Right.
Right, because they neverlearned.
And that's the thing is that in, in, in my, in my recovery, in
my all this, what I've learnedis broken people or break other
people, and everyone's a littlebit broken, so can't expect
people to be 100% all the time,and I think a lot of people are
redlining.
I think a lot of people arejust white knuckling their way
through.
A lot of pastors, primarily,are doing that, and even young
(31:08):
pastors that I've met.
I ask them, like what are yourplans?
And they have these huge goalsand these huge plans and I'm
like you got to slow down, likeI was exactly where you were and
I burnt out.
It did not work out for me.
They always say the same thingsI would have said, which is
like, well, it just wouldn'twork for you, but it'll work for
me Because, I mean, thearrogance of young people is
(31:31):
just, it's funny.
Margie (31:32):
Now it's funny.
It wasn't yeah now it's theolder you get.
That's when you start fudgingyour age more and you look back
and go.
Eden (31:42):
What was I?
Thinking yeah yeah, oh yeah.
I remember some of the things Iin my early years, some of the
goals I had in my early years,was like who, who do you think
you are, that you think youcould pull?
that off and not to be not beingdeprecated, but it's like I was
(32:03):
.
I was, you know, thinking.
I was a two-year pastor,thinking I could shift a whole
denomination, like that's reallyunlikely.
Or that I could lead the churchthat's really unlikely.
A huge church, a small church,I probably could have handled.
But I thought, like I can comein and I can just redo
everything.
No, you'll burn out, you'll die.
Margie (32:19):
How does then call fit into this picture?
Eden (32:28):
That's the beautiful part.
Is that beautiful and annoying?
But beautiful and annoyingbecause for most of my life I
knew I had a call to dosomething for.
Margie (32:41):
God, Because your dad was a pastor right.
Eden (32:44):
No my father-in-law.
My dad was a business owner,but we were raised in the church
and my mom was a treasurer.
Anytime the doors were open, wewere there.
Margie (32:55):
Anytime the doors were open.
Eden (32:55):
We were there Every time the doors were closed.
We were there opening the doors.
So we were constantly there andbut my life, I always had
sensed that I had a call.
And the difficult thing is thatmy mom, when she was younger,
living in Mexico, she had herown salvation moment and she in
(33:21):
those moments said to God, Iwill dedicate one of my children
to serve you, and didn't tellme that was me.
And so it was.
At one point I realized like Ithink I might have been
manipulated into being a pastor,or talked into being a pastor
(33:42):
and manipulating is a wrong wordcomparing to your mom, but like
I felt like maybe maybe Iwasn't supposed to be a pastor,
Maybe that's why all thesethings are going wrong.
But through the work that Ihave done and just taking a deep
look at myself and my abilitiesand my you know and my desires,
the call to ministry is themost prominent thing, and so,
(34:07):
even when I've tried to run fromit, I always go back to but how
does this line up with this?
How does this?
How can I keep, how can Isalvage this to use, to still
continue to do this?
And so God has just never letme go.
Even when I asked him to let mego, even when I begged him to
let me go, he's not let me go,and that has been what has kept
(34:33):
me still in ministry.
And you know, regarding thefuture, what my plans are.
I don't know what the futureholds.
I don't know what my nextassignment will look like.
I don't know if I'll be herefor 20 years.
It could happen.
Those things happen time totime.
But I know that, regardless ofwhere I am, my calling to
(34:58):
minister to be a help to otherpeople, to help other people
find God or understand Godbetter, that will somehow still
be involved, because that's justthe way it's always been
involved, because that's justthe way it's always been.
Margie (35:16):
And so my call has just been one that I can't get out of
, even though I've tried to getout of it.
Eden (35:19):
It's one that I can't ignore.
All the doors that have openedall narrowed down to this, and I
can't, and at this point Idon't want to.
I want to stay as a pastor formy life.
That would be ideal, whether ornot you know, with what goes on
(35:42):
in churches, with what goes onwith denominations, with what
goes on with cultures, whetheror not I'll get to do this full
time at this point in this age.
It seems a little unlikely.
But that's only because mypessimistic side of me, which is
dominant of my pessimistic side, is like well, this is kind of
not going well, so it might notwork out.
(36:02):
But the the optimistic side ofme, the inspired side of me, is
like well, regardless, it'llwork out and you'll still be
doing something, whether or notyou're doing it full time or
you're doing it kind of just asa person, that it'll still be
happening in one way or theother.
Margie (36:20):
Right.
Right, because your call comesfrom God and you're serving
God's purposes and work in theworld.
And how that looks is itdepends on where God plants your
feet and the circumstancesaround you, but the call does
not change.
Right Whether it's adenominational thing or
(36:44):
something else, and I know youalso coach, so you've dabbled
with that and that's a helpingform of ministry as well.
Eden (36:54):
Yeah, I found coaching to be the glue that has kept a lot
of what I do, or a lot of myself, together, but it's made what I
do sustainable.
So whenever I start somethingnew, I go through the coaching
process of well, why am I doingthis, what are the challenges
(37:17):
and what are the ways to makethis viable, to keep this going
for a long time, because I couldtry to start something and make
it exciting and reallyexpensive.
Start something and make itexciting and really expensive,
but then if I leave and it's itdoesn't stick around, then that
was a failure, and so I've.
(37:39):
I've learned in my in my timein ministry you don't leave a
place with a hole, you don'tleave a place with a vacancy.
You train up others to be ableto take that on, and so here
it's the same thing it's I don'twant to overdo it under deliver
, leave and then leave everybodywith a crater of what was a
(38:00):
youth ministry or what was anassociate ministry, and so, yeah
, Right, right.
Margie (38:08):
Well, I appreciate your sharing with us.
I'm really intrigued that yousome of what helps you find your
way back was someOrthodox-related practices and
some of it was some self-carepractices.
I know for me I had a spiritualdirector who heavily
(38:30):
Ignatian-ed me and I tend to,you know, use some of that
because it's very big picturekinds of questions about who you
are and what you're doing, whyyou're doing it and and who you
are before God.
I really like that you have thethe self-care piece, because we
(38:51):
just we need to take care of.
It's a stewardship issue for usto take care of who we are
before God.
This is the body that God hasgiven to us and we need to take
care of it mentally, emotionally, spiritually, physically all of
those things together.
If you could leave us with onethought, what would be the big
(39:16):
thing that you would like toleave us with?
Eden (39:19):
Start small.
Anything you do, start small.
I had a tendency of going bigwith everything right at the
beginning and realize, justthat's not, I can't you, if I,
if you can't run a marathonafter sitting on a couch for 10
years, it just won't go well.
(39:41):
And so the thing I've learnedto be the most effective for for
my, you know, recovery and andthen, but then just of just of
consistent life habits, is juststart small, have a small goal
and just do that consistently,because doing something once 100
times is better than doingsomething 20 times really
(40:04):
intensely.
And so if, over the span of ayear, you only worked out four
or five times for three hours ata time, that's not good.
That's not great.
But if you worked out 365 daysa year for 10 minutes a day,
that's significantly more, and Idon't know how significantly.
(40:26):
I'm bad at math, but the issueis you have to start small and
sustainable and build on thosethings as you get better and
better.
Like one of my hobbies do yourhobbies, find a hobby that you
like and truly do it.
One of the things that hasbrought me a lot of life has
(40:46):
been just creative storytelling,like writing, just writing
stories, and they have nopurpose.
They don't have an audience.
There's no reason to thesestories that I have.
I have like 30, 40 stories inmy notes that I've just been
working on for the past year andI like them.
I think they're funny, I thinkthey're cute.
My wife thinks they're funny,but I don't do them because I
(41:10):
want to make a living with it.
I just do them because itexcites me.
I have an idea, I write it out,I look at it and like that was a
good idea or that that didn'twork, and then I just start over
and I have a practice I have ifI could leave you with two
things is have a set ofpractices every day, that these
are the things that arenon-negotiable.
These are the things you haveto do.
(41:38):
Everything else is negotiableand if you can build on those
things you can, you can do a lotmore.
For me, one of those practicesis writing you just every day,
you spend some time writing andI was never a writer before I
could write.
You know, I have a master'sdegree.
I've written pages of researchfor that degree, but I never saw
myself as a creative writer ora storyteller until I just
(41:59):
started writing.
And, ironically, one of thefirst things I did at the
beginning of my recovery ofburnout was I had an idea for a
story and I just started writingit and I gained so much joy
from it that I kept doing it.
And then I got distracted withanother idea and I started
(42:19):
writing.
And so, like that, that firststory that I started sits on my
computer as a, as a document.
It's just like are you going to, are you going to finish this?
But, like working on all theseother stories because it's it's
still just something that Ienjoy.
But.
But I'm like working on allthese other stories because it's
it's still just something thatI enjoy, but that that open
document doesn't cause meanxiety Like some of these other
(42:40):
things that cause me anxietythat are left on open because it
brings me joy.
It brings, it, excites me, it'ssomething fun that I get to do,
and I think it's important thatpastors specifically engage in
their creative outlets, withouttrying to turn it into a sermon,
without trying to turn it intoa Bible study, because your
(43:02):
pastors generally are creativepeople.
You have to kind of have to becreative.
So engage in that, becausethat's it's not just for work.
Not everything you do has to bework.
So start small and noteverything has to be work would
be the things that I would leaveyou with.
Margie (43:23):
I like it, I like it and I.
I was the person who made funof people with a craft room and
I I didn't get it until I gotinto.
I took a class on stained glassabout nine or ten years ago and
I have like saws and electrical, all kinds of my.
(43:45):
I have a workshop.
That's just a beast that'sawesome of a workshop I sold.
Eden (43:50):
I sold a house to a lady who the whole process she was
like I need to have a yarn room,I need to have a room that's
specifically this big for yarn.
And I was getting tired oflooking for houses with a big
enough room for a yarn room andI was like why, why do you need
a yarn room?
And then when I sold her thehouse and we moved in and I saw
all the quilts that she made, Iwas like, oh, good lord, yeah,
(44:11):
that's why, like, that'sincredible, it's beautiful, yeah
and it, it.
Margie (44:15):
It's part of restoring your soul, it's part of christ
leading you to the quiet watersand the green grass and just
chill there for a minute andthink about one thing, just that
, and only that, which is ourbrains go in too many directions
at once and that's fatiguing.
(44:35):
So that's what I learned,anyway.
Well, thank you so much.
I really appreciate you beingwilling to come on and to share,
and I know it will be helpfulto those who listen.
So thank you very much.
Eden (44:51):
Thank you for having me.
Margie (45:03):
Hey, friends, to those who listen, so thank you very
much.
Thank you for having me.
Hey, friends, the crabby pastorpodcast is sponsored by bryce
art glass and you can find thaton facebook.
I make stained glass that'spart of my self-care and also by
Bryce Coaching, where I coachministry leaders and business
leaders, and so the funds that Igenerate from coaching and from
making stained glass is what issupporting this podcast and I
(45:27):
will have opportunities for youto be a part of sponsoring me
and, as always, you can do thebuy me a cup of coffee thing in
the show notes.
But I will have some other waysthat you can be a part of
getting the word out about theimportance of healthy self-care
for ministry ministry leaders.
(45:52):
Hey, thanks for listening.
It is my deep desire andpassion to champion issues of
sustainability in ministry andfor your life, so I'm here to
help.
I stepped back from pastoralministry and I feel called to
help ministry leaders create andcultivate sustainability in
(46:16):
their lives so that they can gothe distance with God and
whatever plans that God has foryou.
I would love to help.
I would consider it an honorand in all things and honor and
in all things, make sure youconnect to these sustainability
practices, you know, so that youdon't become the crabby Pastor.
Hey there, Margie Bryce, here bringing you the Crabby
Pastor podcast, and I don'tthink you're going to be too
surprised to know that it's tooeasy today to become the Crabby
Pastor.
Our time together will give youfood for thought to help you be
the ministry leader fullysurrendered to God's purposes
(00:24):
and living into whatever ittakes to get you there and keep
you there.
So we're talking aboutsustainability in ministry and
today's episode of the CrabbyPastor podcast and I want to
welcome you all this is MargieBryson.
(00:47):
I am your host talking aboutall things self-care for
ministry leaders and someleadership issues, because you
know the first line ofleadership is to be able to lead
yourself well, and sometimesyou know we have that intention
going into ministry, butsometimes the demands of the
(01:10):
task that we have been given geta little overwhelming or we get
a little entrenched in them andit takes us to the place of
burnout, which is the placebeyond.
A nap will just fix this kindof realm.
So I have visited that place andI always appreciate people who
(01:33):
are willing to come on thepodcast and share their back
from burnout stories, because weall can learn from one another
as we go along here, and today Ihave Reverend Eden Avalos with
me and I met him at adevelopment session in San Diego
for coaches, so he's a coach aswell, and he shared his burnout
(01:57):
story and I was interestedbecause I could tell he was a
30-something person.
So I like to have the youngerpeople on to learn from one
another and to benefit and togrow.
So I'm going to let Edenintroduce himself.
Tell us a bit about who you areand what you're doing these
(02:18):
days.
Eden (02:19):
My name is Eden Avalos.
I am in Indiana.
I came from New Mexico.
I've been in youth ministry,primarily here in Indiana.
Before this I was kind of thecatch-all, be-all pastor and I
had different titles.
I mean, I did a lot of youthministry, I did a lot of
(02:39):
associate work, I did a lot ofoutreach work During COVID, I
did a lot of media work.
So it was kind of, you know,whatever the need was at the
time, that was my position.
But here in Indiana it'sprimarily been one thing.
It's just been youth ministryand associate to the pastor of
just whatever he needs.
If he's on vacation, I'm incharge.
(03:00):
If he is in a meeting, I'm incharge, kind of a thing.
So it's been different.
This is my first full-timeposition I've done.
You know there's no such thingas part-time ministry.
It's the first time where Ionly have to do this.
This is the only thing I haveto do, and so before it was
youth ministry and somethingelse.
(03:20):
It was youth ministry and realestate or ministry and working
in a factory, ministry and, youknow, photography or yard work,
whatever.
Whatever I needed to do to makeends meet was my former life,
whereas now it's just this isall I have to do, and everything
outside of ministry is justsomething I want to do, so it's
(03:42):
a good combination.
Margie (03:43):
Now, Okay, so you talked about your visit to burnout and
I guess I'm curious when youfirst got the inkling that
something was off.
Eden (03:57):
The first time must have been.
I think we were going on ayouth trip to San Diego again
and I remember reaching the topof the hill and looking over the
water and I was just thinkinglike this has to be the last
time I do this trip, like Idon't want to do this anymore.
(04:17):
I'm tired.
And I enjoyed that trip thoughit's always a fun event.
I always have had fun with thekids but I was just done with it
.
I was just.
I just didn't want to keepgoing.
And then from that point on, Istill did it one more time, but
the last time I did it I wasjust.
I was in a whole different placementally, a darker place
(04:40):
mentally, and it was that it wasthat first time where I was
just getting to the point whereI had just so much going on, I
was being pulled in too manydifferent directions and now I
had to go on this trip.
And so I think that is like thebeginning of when I was
starting to think like I have tofigure something out.
But in that I needed to get outof ministry was my thought
(05:03):
process.
But when my wife got pregnantis when I did a self-reflection,
a self-analysis, and I lookedat just my life and I thought I
can't be a father effectivelywith all this going on.
I have to fix this.
(05:23):
With all this going on, I haveto fix this.
And so that's when I went intotherapy and really just started
narrowing down on these thingsand did the work that the
therapist was recommending.
And during that time it was justnot.
It was just wasn't great atwork because I was going through
an interim phase and myself andthe other and the youth pastor
(05:46):
took on the interim position fora year, about a year.
It was during COVID and it was.
It was at a legacy church, youknow, a church that had a very
prominent position and myfather-in-law was the pastor
that was there before me andwhen he retired he kind of we
(06:07):
took it on and it was a very,just, very difficult time.
We didn't know what was goingon, we didn't know how the
election process was going.
We just kind of were it kind ofput into a corner.
But then when the new pastorwas elected, they hired this
great guy.
I still love the guy, he's agreat pastor and I committed I'm
(06:32):
going to serve under him for aminimum of one year and then if
something opens up, I'll stepout.
And something opened up and so Istepped out after a year,
wanting to stay there, but Istepped out.
I stepped out just because,being related to the former
pastor and being, you know, kindof, I felt like I was carrying
(06:54):
that legacy into the church,just being related to the former
pastor, and so I felt like Iwas doing a disservice to the
current pastor and so I had to.
I stepped out.
But my family is all back homein New Mexico and so it was a
difficult decision to come outhere.
But I felt like I was in abetter place mentally to and
(07:15):
physically and emotionally tocome out here and pastor
alongside my current pastor.
But the first inkling was thatI just realized I can't keep
going in a hundred differentdirections at a hundred miles an
hour and I need something,needs something, has to give,
because it's going to break.
And then it, and then it justdid break.
Margie (07:36):
So when you say it, it did break, what exactly describe
for us what what that lookedlike?
Eden (07:44):
Yeah, so it wasn't like one moment.
It was a series of momentswhere, right after COVID, right
after we got shut down sorry, no, let me backtrack Right after I
took on the interim role and Ididn't take it on by myself, but
I'll just, without includingthe other pastor I took on the
interim, interim role and thefirst thing we had to do was a
(08:07):
funeral for one of my teenagerswho had committed suicide and so
that kind of put me in atailspin and nobody checked in
on us.
Nobody checked in.
You know how are you handlingthis?
I was checking in on the family, I was checking in on the kids,
(08:28):
on the other people that youknow were affected by this, but
nobody was just checking in onme.
My wife was checking in on me,but I wasn't giving her
everything, I wasn't telling hereverything, because I just had
learned at that point you bottleeverything up, so how old were
you at that point?
Margie (08:45):
I'm so bad with age I think I was just had learned at
that point.
You bottle everything up.
So how old were you at thatpoint?
Eden (08:47):
I'm so bad with age.
I think I was 28.
Okay, I have no idea, I'mcurrently 32, but only because I
just remembered yesterday thatI'm 32.
So I'm not exactly sure of ages.
But it was a few months rightbefore COVID hit, so it was
March of 2020.
A few months before, that iswhen, is when it was when this
(09:08):
all happened, and then, and thenit hit, and then it just went,
you know just terribly.
Margie (09:14):
Oh it was it was, that was, was, would you say.
This is accurate, that thesuicide of the teenager was
maybe the straw that broke thecamel's back for you, or just
put you over the edge?
Eden (09:30):
I would say I would say that it I had.
I was at capacity or rightbefore capacity and this came on
and but then it just keptpiling up.
After that four capacity andthis came on and but then it
just kept piling up after that.
And so I guess, I guess, Iguess it could have been I I'm
not sure exactly I'd have tolook at my journal of of, just
(09:51):
because, surprisingly, I I'vekept the journal for the past,
you know, six years, eventhrough burnout, and it's kind
of dark to read through becauseyou're like what is going on in
this guy's life?
Or a couple years ago it was,it was I was just saying like
today was terrible, today wasterrible, today was okay, today
was terrible, today was terrible.
Um, so I I could back track andkind of see where it all really
(10:14):
fell apart, but it it could havebeen that that that kind of
pushed me over, but I had a lotgoing in.
I I had a lot that I was justtolerating, that I was ignoring
a lot of the, not to speak illof anyone.
But people don't appreciate theinterim pastor, the associate
(10:39):
pastor, the youth pastor, asmuch as they appreciate the
senior pastor and so pastor, theyouth pastor, as much as they
appreciate the senior pastor.
And so, even though during theinterim period we didn't lose a
single member, we didn't haveany major fights, we didn't have
any major breakouts, that wasnever acknowledged, that was
never.
Margie (10:58):
That you were holding the fort together.
Basically, Right.
Eden (11:01):
Plus doing our own jobs of our individual ministry, plus
doing our bivocational jobs tomake ends meet.
And so I think the moment thatI realized I can't do this
anymore is when, like at the endof the interim period, when
they had elected the new, thecoming senior pastor, they said
(11:23):
we'd like to now thank PastorEden and the other pastor for
their pulpit supply for the lastyear.
And I was.
I just that moment broke mebecause I was like, oh, the
pulpit supply, that's all we did.
Pulpit supply, okay, that'sgood.
I'm glad nothing else gotnoticed.
I'm glad that you know thatthat's what I'm known for is
(11:43):
pulpit supply.
And so that moment is the onewhere I was just like this isn't
going to work, like I can't dothis, I'm not doing this, and
that's when around that time iswhen I was, when I I started
going to therapy and and reallyI just broke down with my wife
and just told her like this is,this has gotten pretty bad, this
is not a good, I'm not in agood place and I need help, and
(12:07):
so that's that's, that's thestart of it.
And then going through therapyand going through the things
that my counselor was telling me, kind of getting that shift in
perspective helped me out a lot.
And then still on theordination track, still doing
the all the things that you'rerequired to do for ordination,
and so I took an assessment oncefor one of the requirements.
(12:30):
It was a psychologicalassessment and the person doing
the analysis saw my report andwas like are you in therapy?
You might need to be in therapybecause it seems like you're
going through a lot of trauma.
You've done, you've dealt witha lot.
You need to, you've you need toget these things sorted out.
And I told him like yeah, I'mactually currently in therapy,
(12:53):
and so he kind of I think he waslike okay, well, if you're as
long as you're working on thesethings, I think you'll be fine.
In my report I just saw a lot ofpotentially dangerous things
that I just was ignoring.
I was just not paying attentionto myself, I wasn't paying
attention to my body telling meslow down, stop, stop worrying
(13:16):
about all of these things all atonce.
But I had no solutions.
I had no.
There was nothing that I coulddo at the time.
It was weird.
And then, but then doorsstarted opening.
People were offering mepositions, and at first it was,
(13:36):
they were all positions thatwere worse than the position
that I was at.
Margie (13:40):
They were worse, meaning you knew you'd end up running
hard and fast on the hamsterwheel with a heavy load.
Eden (13:46):
Right, exactly Like worse.
And it's not about the money,but it was not enough money, and
it was.
It was I knew I'd have to go toget the ministry job plus do a
whole other job, a whole othercareer, or my wife would have to
do that and my daughter wouldhave to be put in daycare, and
we just weren't negotiating thatwe or my wife would have to do
that and my daughter would haveto be put in daycare, and we
(14:06):
just weren't negotiating that.
We're just, we weren't going todo that.
Not that there's anything wrongwith daycare, we just didn't
want to do that.
And so we, we, we kept gettingoffers like this and I just kept
thinking like this just isn'tworking, I don't think there's,
I don't think there's anythingfor me.
And so I started at a company,just at a factory, just thinking
(14:29):
I'll work my way up.
And it's not, it was a, it wasa.
Faith comes by hearing, and soI'm not sure if you or your
listeners are familiar, but it'sjust, they put audio Bibles
together, and so that's that'swhat I did, was I?
I went there with, you know,with a master's degree, with, at
that point, you know, 10 yearsof of pastoral experience, army
(14:51):
experience, and.
I got a factory job and it was.
It was helpful getting to sitthere and just put these things
together for eight hours a day,because I got to listen to
audiobooks, I got to listen tothe bible, I got to listen to
podcasts and I was able to do alot of deep work during that
(15:12):
that time that I wasn'texpecting to do.
I thought like I'm just goingto go in and I'm going to start
a new career and I'm going towork my way up in this company.
But then within the company,all the positions that were
interesting to me were gettingtaken up and I asked my boss I
was like, why am I being passedover?
(15:32):
And she said, well, you have tobe here for a year before we
can recommend you for anotherposition.
And all the positions weregetting filled and there's not a
high turnover rate at thatcompany at those positions.
And so I was like so I have tobe here for a year doing this
sitting.
And it was physically demandingbecause the tables, all the
(15:53):
factory, was set up for shorterpeople and I'm, you know, six
foot two and so I'm kind of likeleaned over like this putting
these things together, and sophysically I was in a lot of
pain and I thought I can't dothis for a year and then hope
for a position later, and so Iended up just having to quit and
and and and was just waitingfor something to open up.
(16:16):
Um, I was still selling realestate at the time, but it was.
I was getting burnt out from itbecause of all the I like that
business, but I didn't.
I don't think I was in ahealthy place mentally to be
doing it well, and so I wasn'ttrying as hard.
I was still getting sales and Iwas still able to make money
(16:38):
with it, but it wasn't.
It just wasn't ideal, and so wehad to my wife and I just had
to make a lot of shifts.
We were living with familyduring this time and we just
realized like we need our ownspace, and so we got an
apartment that we could barelyafford.
But we had money in savings andso we got the apartment just to
(16:59):
hopefully figure something out,just hopefully something will
come our way and this will getresolved.
And we were there for, I think,eight months and it was just a
haven.
It was just a safe, warm placethat we got to be together,
alone, and it made thedifference, getting to just to
(17:22):
be alone as our little family,because at that point my
daughter, when she was born, shewas born and we were living
with family, and so she moved inwith family and not that that's
wrong or bad, it's just itdidn't work.
It is Everyone's on top of eachother.
Everyone's, we're sharing akitchen, we're sharing all these
(17:44):
things.
Everyone's, we're sharing akitchen, we're sharing all these
things.
And it was a good time, but Iwas not in the place to enjoy it
as I could have.
I just I had a lot of deep workthat I needed to do, that I had
not done, and so so how?
Margie (17:58):
how long was your?
Well?
First, let's back up.
How did you find this therapist?
What?
What was the process in comingto find somebody that you felt
you could work with?
Eden (18:11):
So that was a miracle of God.
The office that I called it wasjust a Christian counseling
office that was down the street.
And I called and asked you knowhow much is it, do you have any
availability?
And they said we don't haveanybody available right now, but
we do have interns that areavailable.
Are you willing to meet with anintern?
And at that point I was justdesperate.
(18:32):
I said I'll meet with thejanitor, I don't care, like just
any anyone, whoever you have isgood.
And so I, I met with mycounselor, uh, that first time,
and I was hesitant going inbecause a lot of what my not a
lot, but a good chunk of what myproblem was was theological
(18:52):
understandings of, like what isgoing on in the world and why
can't I make sense of it and whydoes it seem to be inconsistent
with theology, with justworldview.
And I was hoping that I wouldget somebody who was like-minded
, who had similar theologicalunderstandings.
(19:14):
And I knew that that was a highorder, because most counselors
have to have master's.
I mean, all counselors have tohave master's degrees and that's
a high degree to get.
And so I thought like I don'tthink that most counselors get
theological training, but let'sjust see what happens.
And I go and I meet with thisintern and he was a former
(19:34):
pastor and he had a formerpastor and he had a master's
degree in theology and wasgetting his master's degree in
counseling and it was just, hewas a line of rescue that got
sent because our theologicalbeliefs were very similar.
We had a very similar upbringing, very similar background, and
(19:58):
he was able to walk me through alot of the things that we went
through because he had walkedthrough them and so he was a
godsend.
It was truly a miracle that Godeven orchestrated that, because
I could have ended up with theother person.
You know that that would havebeen something different and it
probably would have helped still, but this, the, the gentleman
(20:21):
that I that I was with, uh, justcompletely helped me, recenter
myself on the practice, thebasic practices, you know, the,
the Jesus prayer, the it was alot of.
It was Greek Orthodox, so a lotof it was just recentering on
the fact of that.
God is powerful, god is moving,god has the ability to, to
(20:45):
change these things and, youknow, with the help of therapy
it's just compounds and I justtook on spiritual practices of,
you know fasting, of praying,you know working out.
It's not necessarily a spiritualpractice, but it is a practice
that I think, is important, andso I kind of hobbled together
(21:07):
these things and it made a hugedifference.
And at this point now I'm onthe side where I'm no longer
underground, I'm no long like.
The fire has already been putout, it's been cleaned out,
everything's been pulled out.
Now I'm just building up.
Margie (21:24):
Okay, how long about?
How long of a process was thisfor you?
Eden (21:29):
I think it's been about four years.
If I were to put a number on it, I'd say about four to five
years.
It's been about closer to four,I think 44 years of total of
from the beginning stages to now.
It's been about four.
Margie (21:46):
And what would you say are the top things you learned
along the way that would behelpful say to our audience
along the way that would behelpful.
Eden (21:56):
say to our audience Realize that if you need help,
you need help.
Don't put it off, because itcan go bad really quick.
If you have trauma in your lifethat is unaddressed, it needs
(22:16):
to be addressed.
If you have self-deprecationissues which I have, I still
have, I still it's.
My tendency is toself-deprecate.
But if you are a person thatdoes that, that is not going to
help.
Living in shame is not going tohelp.
Margie (22:32):
It just makes it significantly worse and worse,
and so and how would youdescribe self-deprecating, in
case somebody wants a littlemore unpacking on that?
Eden (22:43):
Anything I do, I do it wrong.
If I cured cancer tomorrow, Iwould have taken too long, I
would have done it wrong, Iwould have been over budget.
I would have been over budget.
I always find a way to teardown what I do.
Regardless of what I do orregardless of how well I do it,
I can do something extremelywell.
Look at it and go eh, it wasn'tthat hard, actually, anyone can
(23:08):
do it.
Just recently I was talkingabout education through high
school.
All of my teachers none of myteachers encouraged me to go to
college because they didn'tthink I could make it, and so I
was just of the belief that I'mjust not going to college.
I have to figure something elseout.
But I had one teacher who saidyou need to go like if you want
(23:29):
to go, you can make it like that, you shouldn't let that slow
you down.
And that one teacher made adifference and I didn't, you
know, enroll in college until Iwas 21, 22.
So I was older than the otherstudents, but I had a calling on
my life, and so I believe thatI needed to go to college.
In my first semester I wasnervous, I was terrified, but I
(23:53):
did it.
And then I thought, okay, well,I can, I can do another one,
and I can do another one.
Then I got my bachelor's degreethen and I'm like, well, let's
see if I can do a master'sdegree.
And I got my master's degreeand then when I graduated with
my master's degree, I looked atall of my education and I went,
if I could do it, then anyonecan do it.
So it wasn't that hard, itclearly wasn't that difficult,
(24:16):
and so I just tore it down.
I just thought, like, I don'teven have I still don't even
have my degrees hanging on thewall, because it's just that
that's my habit is like, oh, ifI did it, it's anyone, anyone's
capable of doing it, and rightnow it's just because I haven't
done it.
Margie (24:29):
I will put them up at some point, but I just don't
have.
Eden (24:32):
I don't know where they are.
Margie (24:33):
We just moved, so yeah, so anything else words of wisdom
besides, if you to get helpquickly, to realize I need help
and to go after that and and ifyou know that you have trauma or
you know that you have quirksabout how you perceive yourself,
(24:56):
how you perceive life and justyour general mindset, is there
any other words of?
Eden (25:02):
wisdom that you'd offer.
Ultimately, just take itseriously.
If you've decided to call outand you get help, take what they
say seriously.
Don't just kind of process itmentally and think, oh just,
yeah, sure, that's great, do thework.
Do the work because otherwiseyou're just putting a Band-Aid
(25:22):
on the issue and you're notgetting to the symptoms, you're
not actually healing, you'rejust masking and you're ignoring
.
And you have to do a life shift,a complete shift, to get out of
burnout successfully, to getout of that mindset successfully
.
You have to change everythingbecause if you keep, the reason
(25:45):
you got there is because all ofyour habits led you to that.
It's not a random thing thatwas just dealt to you.
It's the way you process, theway you engage, the way you do.
All of those things led you tothat, and so if you want to get
out of that, you have to undoall the things you were doing,
(26:06):
and it takes a long time.
It's be patient with yourself,be kind to yourself, give
yourself rest, give yourselfbreaks because you're going to
need them overall.
You're going to need them.
If you don't, you're just goingto end up back in the same
place as you were before.
I actively have to tell myselfno, you don't need another job.
(26:29):
No, you shouldn't start abusiness.
No, you don't.
That like what you're doing isyou're panicking, and so like I
have to understand when I startgetting uneasy.
I have to understand well, whatis the source of this, where is
this coming from and what am Itrying to ignore, and that I
mean.
That helps a lot to do that andthat's a level of
(26:50):
self-awareness which which Ithink, boy, there should be
courses on just that.
Especially for path.
Margie (27:00):
At all levels, at all levels of education there should
be.
You know, why am I doing this?
Why is this annoying me?
Why does that congregate annoyme?
You know and you could find out.
Oh my gosh, he reminds me of mybrother, right?
Eden (27:14):
annoy me, you know, and you could find out.
Margie (27:15):
Oh my gosh, he reminds me of my brother, you know, my
brother makes me nuts, you know,and at least coming asking
those kinds of questions, whatdo you do differently now?
How does your life lookdifferently now than before?
Eden (27:29):
I, I'm trying to.
I, I do my best to be moreintentional about enjoying
things, and while that's stillhard, I intentionally try to
enjoy things Like vacations.
I grew up, you know, I'm animmigrant, my parents are
immigrants, and so, growing upas an immigrant, you learn to
work, and we never vacationed askids.
(27:52):
We went on vacations, but theywere work vacations, they were
work trips, and so my dad, mymom, they don't know how to rest
, they don't know how to stop,and therefore I don't know how
to stop, I don't know how torest.
I never, you know, we nevertook time off.
And so even when I was at mylast church vacay I think I took
(28:17):
three vacations in seven years,and those vacations were still.
I still was doing homeworkduring those, or I was, I was
still answering phone calls, orI was still, you know, checking
email or whatever.
It was, just to keep thingsgoing.
Margie (28:33):
But and that's a boundary, that's a boundary
issue.
You probably learned that.
Yeah, I did.
Eden (28:37):
And in some vacations, like some trips, I would say
like I'm on break from ministrybut I still have to do real
estate.
Or I'm on break from real estatebut I still am waiting on a
call from a pastor or something,and so, like the unfortunate
reality is bivocational pastorsdon't have that luxury to turn
(28:59):
those things off all of them atonce, because the timing is just
not always good.
But for those that get to dothis full time, you have to set
those boundaries, because if youdon't, people are looking for
your boundaries and they're notdoing it in a cynical way,
they're just they need people,need people and the pastor just
(29:20):
happens to be one of the mostaccessible people to get.
And so if the pastor doesn'thave good boundaries, the
congregants understand well, Ican just go to him, go to her
regardless.
I know they on vacation, but Ireally need to know whether or
not I should eat this thing orwhether and it's all most of it
is petty things.
(29:41):
A lot of it is petty things.
But every now and then you know, of course there has to be a
limit, be ignored.
But if you're, if you're, ifyou're allowing the little
things to bother you, whenyou've set those boundaries,
then you've not really set anyboundaries, and people are going
(30:02):
to continue to bring thoselittle things to you, and so you
condition the people around youwith your boundaries.
Margie (30:10):
And you said it way nicer than I would just say you
train them, you got to trainthem, Right right, train them up
, right you know, Right, butyeah, if you don't train them,
if you don't condition them toknow like these are my
boundaries, you need to respectthem.
Eden (30:26):
they're going to go past them because they think they
need you.
Margie (30:32):
And they don't know any better.
Eden (30:42):
Right.
Right, because they neverlearned.
And that's the thing is that in, in, in my, in my recovery, in
my all this, what I've learnedis broken people or break other
people, and everyone's a littlebit broken, so can't expect
people to be 100% all the time,and I think a lot of people are
redlining.
I think a lot of people arejust white knuckling their way
through.
A lot of pastors, primarily,are doing that, and even young
(31:08):
pastors that I've met.
I ask them, like what are yourplans?
And they have these huge goalsand these huge plans and I'm
like you got to slow down, likeI was exactly where you were and
I burnt out.
It did not work out for me.
They always say the same thingsI would have said, which is
like, well, it just wouldn'twork for you, but it'll work for
me Because, I mean, thearrogance of young people is
(31:31):
just, it's funny.
Margie (31:32):
Now it's funny.
It wasn't yeah now it's theolder you get.
That's when you start fudgingyour age more and you look back
and go.
Eden (31:42):
What was I?
Thinking yeah yeah, oh yeah.
I remember some of the things Iin my early years, some of the
goals I had in my early years,was like who, who do you think
you are, that you think youcould pull?
that off and not to be not beingdeprecated, but it's like I was
(32:03):
.
I was, you know, thinking.
I was a two-year pastor,thinking I could shift a whole
denomination, like that's reallyunlikely.
Or that I could lead the churchthat's really unlikely.
A huge church, a small church,I probably could have handled.
But I thought, like I can comein and I can just redo
everything.
No, you'll burn out, you'll die.
Margie (32:19):
How does then call fit into this picture?
Eden (32:28):
That's the beautiful part.
Is that beautiful and annoying?
But beautiful and annoyingbecause for most of my life I
knew I had a call to dosomething for.
Margie (32:41):
God, Because your dad was a pastor right.
Eden (32:44):
No my father-in-law.
My dad was a business owner,but we were raised in the church
and my mom was a treasurer.
Anytime the doors were open, wewere there.
Margie (32:55):
Anytime the doors were open.
Eden (32:55):
We were there Every time the doors were closed.
We were there opening the doors.
So we were constantly there andbut my life, I always had
sensed that I had a call.
And the difficult thing is thatmy mom, when she was younger,
living in Mexico, she had herown salvation moment and she in
(33:21):
those moments said to God, Iwill dedicate one of my children
to serve you, and didn't tellme that was me.
And so it was.
At one point I realized like Ithink I might have been
manipulated into being a pastor,or talked into being a pastor
(33:42):
and manipulating is a wrong wordcomparing to your mom, but like
I felt like maybe maybe Iwasn't supposed to be a pastor,
Maybe that's why all thesethings are going wrong.
But through the work that Ihave done and just taking a deep
look at myself and my abilitiesand my you know and my desires,
the call to ministry is themost prominent thing, and so,
(34:07):
even when I've tried to run fromit, I always go back to but how
does this line up with this?
How does this?
How can I keep, how can Isalvage this to use, to still
continue to do this?
And so God has just never letme go.
Even when I asked him to let mego, even when I begged him to
let me go, he's not let me go,and that has been what has kept
(34:33):
me still in ministry.
And you know, regarding thefuture, what my plans are.
I don't know what the futureholds.
I don't know what my nextassignment will look like.
I don't know if I'll be herefor 20 years.
It could happen.
Those things happen time totime.
But I know that, regardless ofwhere I am, my calling to
(34:58):
minister to be a help to otherpeople, to help other people
find God or understand Godbetter, that will somehow still
be involved, because that's justthe way it's always been
involved, because that's justthe way it's always been.
Margie (35:16):
And so my call has just been one that I can't get out of
, even though I've tried to getout of it.
Eden (35:19):
It's one that I can't ignore.
All the doors that have openedall narrowed down to this, and I
can't, and at this point Idon't want to.
I want to stay as a pastor formy life.
That would be ideal, whether ornot you know, with what goes on
(35:42):
in churches, with what goes onwith denominations, with what
goes on with cultures, whetheror not I'll get to do this full
time at this point in this age.
It seems a little unlikely.
But that's only because mypessimistic side of me, which is
dominant of my pessimistic side, is like well, this is kind of
not going well, so it might notwork out.
(36:02):
But the the optimistic side ofme, the inspired side of me, is
like well, regardless, it'llwork out and you'll still be
doing something, whether or notyou're doing it full time or
you're doing it kind of just asa person, that it'll still be
happening in one way or theother.
Margie (36:20):
Right.
Right, because your call comesfrom God and you're serving
God's purposes and work in theworld.
And how that looks is itdepends on where God plants your
feet and the circumstancesaround you, but the call does
not change.
Right Whether it's adenominational thing or
(36:44):
something else, and I know youalso coach, so you've dabbled
with that and that's a helpingform of ministry as well.
Eden (36:54):
Yeah, I found coaching to be the glue that has kept a lot
of what I do, or a lot of myself, together, but it's made what I
do sustainable.
So whenever I start somethingnew, I go through the coaching
process of well, why am I doingthis, what are the challenges
(37:17):
and what are the ways to makethis viable, to keep this going
for a long time, because I couldtry to start something and make
it exciting and reallyexpensive.
Start something and make itexciting and really expensive,
but then if I leave and it's itdoesn't stick around, then that
was a failure, and so I've.
(37:39):
I've learned in my in my timein ministry you don't leave a
place with a hole, you don'tleave a place with a vacancy.
You train up others to be ableto take that on, and so here
it's the same thing it's I don'twant to overdo it under deliver
, leave and then leave everybodywith a crater of what was a
(38:00):
youth ministry or what was anassociate ministry, and so, yeah
, Right, right.
Margie (38:08):
Well, I appreciate your sharing with us.
I'm really intrigued that yousome of what helps you find your
way back was someOrthodox-related practices and
some of it was some self-carepractices.
I know for me I had a spiritualdirector who heavily
(38:30):
Ignatian-ed me and I tend to,you know, use some of that
because it's very big picturekinds of questions about who you
are and what you're doing, whyyou're doing it and and who you
are before God.
I really like that you have thethe self-care piece, because we
(38:51):
just we need to take care of.
It's a stewardship issue for usto take care of who we are
before God.
This is the body that God hasgiven to us and we need to take
care of it mentally, emotionally, spiritually, physically all of
those things together.
If you could leave us with onethought, what would be the big
(39:16):
thing that you would like toleave us with?
Eden (39:19):
Start small.
Anything you do, start small.
I had a tendency of going bigwith everything right at the
beginning and realize, justthat's not, I can't you, if I,
if you can't run a marathonafter sitting on a couch for 10
years, it just won't go well.
(39:41):
And so the thing I've learnedto be the most effective for for
my, you know, recovery and andthen, but then just of just of
consistent life habits, is juststart small, have a small goal
and just do that consistently,because doing something once 100
times is better than doingsomething 20 times really
(40:04):
intensely.
And so if, over the span of ayear, you only worked out four
or five times for three hours ata time, that's not good.
That's not great.
But if you worked out 365 daysa year for 10 minutes a day,
that's significantly more, and Idon't know how significantly.
(40:26):
I'm bad at math, but the issueis you have to start small and
sustainable and build on thosethings as you get better and
better.
Like one of my hobbies do yourhobbies, find a hobby that you
like and truly do it.
One of the things that hasbrought me a lot of life has
(40:46):
been just creative storytelling,like writing, just writing
stories, and they have nopurpose.
They don't have an audience.
There's no reason to thesestories that I have.
I have like 30, 40 stories inmy notes that I've just been
working on for the past year andI like them.
I think they're funny, I thinkthey're cute.
My wife thinks they're funny,but I don't do them because I
(41:10):
want to make a living with it.
I just do them because itexcites me.
I have an idea, I write it out,I look at it and like that was a
good idea or that that didn'twork, and then I just start over
and I have a practice I have ifI could leave you with two
things is have a set ofpractices every day, that these
are the things that arenon-negotiable.
These are the things you haveto do.
(41:38):
Everything else is negotiableand if you can build on those
things you can, you can do a lotmore.
For me, one of those practicesis writing you just every day,
you spend some time writing andI was never a writer before I
could write.
You know, I have a master'sdegree.
I've written pages of researchfor that degree, but I never saw
myself as a creative writer ora storyteller until I just
(41:59):
started writing.
And, ironically, one of thefirst things I did at the
beginning of my recovery ofburnout was I had an idea for a
story and I just started writingit and I gained so much joy
from it that I kept doing it.
And then I got distracted withanother idea and I started
(42:19):
writing.
And so, like that, that firststory that I started sits on my
computer as a, as a document.
It's just like are you going to, are you going to finish this?
But, like working on all theseother stories because it's it's
still just something that Ienjoy.
But.
But I'm like working on allthese other stories because it's
it's still just something thatI enjoy, but that that open
document doesn't cause meanxiety Like some of these other
(42:40):
things that cause me anxietythat are left on open because it
brings me joy.
It brings, it, excites me, it'ssomething fun that I get to do,
and I think it's important thatpastors specifically engage in
their creative outlets, withouttrying to turn it into a sermon,
without trying to turn it intoa Bible study, because your
(43:02):
pastors generally are creativepeople.
You have to kind of have to becreative.
So engage in that, becausethat's it's not just for work.
Not everything you do has to bework.
So start small and noteverything has to be work would
be the things that I would leaveyou with.
Margie (43:23):
I like it, I like it and I.
I was the person who made funof people with a craft room and
I I didn't get it until I gotinto.
I took a class on stained glassabout nine or ten years ago and
I have like saws and electrical, all kinds of my.
(43:45):
I have a workshop.
That's just a beast that'sawesome of a workshop I sold.
Eden (43:50):
I sold a house to a lady who the whole process she was
like I need to have a yarn room,I need to have a room that's
specifically this big for yarn.
And I was getting tired oflooking for houses with a big
enough room for a yarn room andI was like why, why do you need
a yarn room?
And then when I sold her thehouse and we moved in and I saw
all the quilts that she made, Iwas like, oh, good lord, yeah,
(44:11):
that's why, like, that'sincredible, it's beautiful, yeah
and it, it.
Margie (44:15):
It's part of restoring your soul, it's part of christ
leading you to the quiet watersand the green grass and just
chill there for a minute andthink about one thing, just that
, and only that, which is ourbrains go in too many directions
at once and that's fatiguing.
(44:35):
So that's what I learned,anyway.
Well, thank you so much.
I really appreciate you beingwilling to come on and to share,
and I know it will be helpfulto those who listen.
So thank you very much.
Eden (44:51):
Thank you for having me.
Margie (45:03):
Hey, friends, to those who listen, so thank you very
much.
Thank you for having me.
Hey, friends, the crabby pastorpodcast is sponsored by bryce
art glass and you can find thaton facebook.
I make stained glass that'spart of my self-care and also by
Bryce Coaching, where I coachministry leaders and business
leaders, and so the funds that Igenerate from coaching and from
making stained glass is what issupporting this podcast and I
(45:27):
will have opportunities for youto be a part of sponsoring me
and, as always, you can do thebuy me a cup of coffee thing in
the show notes.
But I will have some other waysthat you can be a part of
getting the word out about theimportance of healthy self-care
for ministry ministry leaders.
(45:52):
Hey, thanks for listening.
It is my deep desire andpassion to champion issues of
sustainability in ministry andfor your life, so I'm here to
help.
I stepped back from pastoralministry and I feel called to
help ministry leaders create andcultivate sustainability in
(46:16):
their lives so that they can gothe distance with God and
whatever plans that God has foryou.
I would love to help.
I would consider it an honorand in all things and honor and
in all things, make sure youconnect to these sustainability
practices, you know, so that youdon't become the crabby Pastor.
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