June 26, 2024 • 45 mins
While on sabbatical (yes, I'm taking my own advice), we are replaying podcasts where our brave guests tell their journey into and out of burnout. You won't want to miss these as there's always something to learn from others, right?
Rev. Tanner Griffin courageously shares his battles with burnout and the personal and professional toll it took on his life. Reverend Griffin provides an unfiltered look at the inefficacies within church organizational health and the immense pressures that pushed him to step away from full-time ministry, despite his best efforts at time management and boundary-setting.
Throughout our conversation, we underscore the critical importance of self-care and Sabbath-keeping in ministry. Despite cultural pressures and busy schedules, the biblical mandate for rest remains essential. Rev. Griffin's insights, along with our discussion on organizational dysfunction and the pressures of being a "fixer," provide a comprehensive examination of the complexities pastors face and the journey toward rediscovering a true sense of purpose and calling. Tune in for an episode that promises to offer valuable lessons in recognizing burnout and prioritizing spiritual rejuvenation.
This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.
Contact info:
Email me at crabbypastor@gmail.com with your input and ideas for burnout and leadership topics of interest or if you know someone who might be interesting to interview.
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CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT SYMPTOMS TEST.
I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.
And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.
Blessings on your journey!
Margie
🦀 🦀 🦀
Find regular support on my Facebook group: Building Sustainability in Ministry Leaders: Beating Burnout.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Margie (00:01):
Hey there, Margie Bryce here bringing you the Crabby
Pastor podcast, and I don'tthink you're going to be too
surprised to know that it's tooeasy today to become the Crabby
Pastor.
Our time together will give youfood for thought to help you be
the ministry leader fullysurrendered to God's purposes
(00:24):
and living into whatever ittakes to get you there and keep
you there.
So we're talking aboutsustainability in ministry.
Hey there, this is Margie Bryce, host of the Crabby Pastor
Podcast, and I know well I cantell from the stats anyway that
(00:48):
one area of interest is whenpastors are courageous and come
on here and tell their storiesof burnout, of challenge and how
they were moved beyond that andjust all the wisdom that they
learn, because I was just sayingin our pre-chat interview with
this pastor that we're about tochat with that you learn more
(01:11):
from failure than you do fromsuccess and personally I
absolutely detest that, but thatis so, so true across the board
.
So I'm here today with ReverendTanner Griffin and I am going
to let you, tanner, introduceyourself.
Tanner (01:31):
Okay, well, thanks for having me with this conversation
.
Like I said, I'm Tanner Griffin.
I'm an ordained elder in theChurch of the Nazarene.
For the past seven years I'vebeen a senior pastor at a couple
different churches ruralIndiana and then, most recently,
you know, kind of centralMichigan more on the western
side, I guess but as of two,three months ago, I made the
(01:54):
decision to step out offull-time pastoral ministry and
move back home, and a big partof that and this is where it
connects with where your podcasthas been has been coming to the
realization that I was inburnout, that it was affecting
my family and, despite my bestefforts over the last several
(02:16):
years of learning better timemanagement skills and all the
different things settingboundaries I listened to a
million podcasts, read a millionbooks, tried to do everything I
could to keep myself healthy Iended up in that burnout
category and so kind ofreinventing life here, but also,
(02:40):
for the first time in a while,feeling excited about what's
ahead and really living intothat sense of calling.
So it's kind of ironic when youtell people that you're stepping
away from full-time ministry,they often ask you know, is it a
faith crisis?
Or, you know, are you upsetabout, you know, is it doubt or
(03:00):
whatever and honestly it was anattempt to be faithful, right.
I feel like God was moving usin a different direction and
gave me a more clarified visionof how I should be spending my
time and be steward of this call.
Margie (03:16):
I like that.
I like that it's tied to calland sometimes God does move us
in unexpected ways and tounexpected places, and then you
still can come out of that witha strong sense of there was
purpose in the mess that I justwalked through and that's kind
(03:38):
of a neat thing to behold afterthe fact.
It may not be so great whileyou're trudging through it.
Trudging through the mess, it'snot so fun there.
But yeah, I liked a lot of whatyou had to say then about call.
So why don't you start then atthe very beginning?
Because what happens is you cansay burnout and nobody sees
(04:04):
burnout coming in themselves, orwhen they're in the midst of it
.
Maybe if you have a very braveadministrative assistant or your
family say hey, this is your,this is not good, but otherwise
you don't see it coming.
So why don't you take us backto start where you'd like us to
(04:28):
start?
Tanner (04:28):
Okay, I mean to focus on kind of the sneaking up on
burnout thing, because I agreewith you, you don't see it
coming and, like I said beforewe started recording, I've
really struggled to apply thatterm to myself for a while
because I felt like it haddifferent implications.
Apply that term to myself for awhile because I felt like it
had different implications.
But I felt called to pastoralministry and it was kind of a
(04:55):
little bit later in life.
I had family when we firstentered into full-time ministry
my wife and three kids.
The oldest was 11, 10, and theyoungest was a year old and I
had a three-year-old in themiddle there.
And so you know, we moved thefamily and you know, at this
church and as is typical of alot of medium small churches now
(05:16):
, there's just a lot of you know, the catchy phrase is deferred
maintenance and that applies tophysical structures, but there's
a lot of I would call deferredmaintenance in community
organizational life as well.
So the organizational health,it, just it just there were some
things that needed attentionand, as we are kind of have a
tendency to do, um, those arethe things we wanted to avoid,
(05:40):
you know, pretend like didn'texist and actually, you know, I
had a member of the church boardupset with me at one point
because he said why would you,why would you say we had this
problem?
And I was like because we do?
You know, it was just one ofthose, one of those realities
where you know, naming it whichseemed like an obvious step for
me was the was the majortriggering thing for folks, and
(06:01):
so well, sure, sure.
Margie (06:02):
And then you're, you're what?
What I think has happened andyou captured this when we talked
before the podcast that whathas happened is other people
have left things unattended andjust passed it along to the next
person, to the next pastor, tothe next pastor, to the next
pastor.
So you know, I mean you'retalking or thinking about a
(06:25):
compounding snowball, almost.
Tanner (06:28):
Yeah, and I think I think I always want to avoid the
sense of like the pastor thatwas there before me didn't do
the right thing or something.
I don't want to give thatimpression.
I just think, like when, whenwe go in, especially if it's
somebody that you know felt acall to ministry early on and
went to school, went to seminary, and then you walk into a
(06:49):
church and you're ready topreach and teach and pray and
you know this is what you'vebeen trained for, study
scriptures and all those typesof things, and then you're
suddenly met with you knowbudgets and buildings and you
know all those types of things.
I think pastors are naturallygravitate towards the pastoral
things, and so the things thatthat I've wrestled the most with
(07:14):
weren't in that area, but itwas more of the you know
organizational.
You know I put in my note toyou that the you know I kind of
got tired of running a religiousorganization and that's that's
the side of things that seems toget neglected or where there's
the greatest need, I guess.
Margie (07:30):
Sure, sure, because you're talking about
organizational stuff and you cancome in and sometimes there's
organizational dysfunction.
Tanner (07:39):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so you know you set abouttrying to tackle those things,
and you know there's people thatI mean, I think people have
unrealistic expectations of whata senior pastor can do,
especially a solo senior pastor.
You know, run the business ofthe church, do all the spiritual
(08:04):
things, visit folks, convincepeople to come back to the
church that have left, and thensomehow, on a Sunday, show up
and have a you know, a sermonthat you know compares to
whoever you can see online youknow what I mean.
Like that's it.
They've spent a whole, you knowwhatever month preparing for
that one talk or something,anyways, and so it's just a
(08:27):
heavy expectation.
And, as that being my firstpastoral, full-time pastoral
role, I wanted to be good at it,you know, and so I wanted to be
successful and I worked reallyhard, you know, to try and meet
all those expectations, whichjust that's a bad strategy.
And so I had to start learningabout boundaries and
(08:51):
prioritizing my own goals andbeing okay with some people
being upset with me, you know Idid like what you wrote here.
Margie (08:58):
You wrote because I was kind of this myself with, but
with any church that that I wasover, I felt like I had the
choice of getting people to likeme or doing what was right for
the church and that's a real bigpicture, focus, mile high view,
so to speak.
(09:19):
While I can not address thisand just let it continue to
perpetuate, or I can addressthis and it'll be challenging,
it'll be a little bit hard, butat the end of the day it's going
to position this church and putthem in a better place and you
know that's a pastoral urging aswell.
Tanner (09:40):
Yeah, and so the first church I was at, the financial
situation was the reality it had.
The church finances had been anissue for a while but it had a
daycare center that wasproviding revenue to keep it
afloat.
But then the community, thelocal school district, got a
grant to do daycare at theschool where it was costing
(10:01):
parents almost nothing and itjust kind of gutted the daycare
at the school where it wascosting parents almost nothing
and it just kind of gutted thedaycare at that at that time.
And so the month before weclosed on our house into this
area so we'd been at the churchfor three months maybe I saw my
first full like financialsnapshot.
And you know the church spentthousands of dollars more than
(10:22):
it brought in.
And here I am going to buy thishouse with my, you know, with
my family and I'm like I don'tthink the church can afford us.
And that was the battle fromfrom day one.
You know there was times where,you know the church, our bank
account was 15 bucks.
Margie (10:40):
You know there was times where your personal one or the
church, the church, the churchone.
Tanner (10:46):
Yeah, like we we, we were in a in a tight place, and
so I spent a lot of time digginginto the budget Right, because
it just wasn't the budgetprocess, it wasn't something
that was strong in this church,and so I spent a lot of time
trying to get my head around thefinancials and, you know,
(11:07):
people started posting passive,aggressively on social media.
You know it's hard, it's hardto, it's hard to love your
people when all you want to dois look at spreadsheets and I
was like I know what you'resaying, but like if the church
closes, like if we run out ofit's just so.
It's that type of thing thatjust wears on you.
Like I was determined thatfixing the financial realities
(11:30):
was step number one, Like thatwas going to be the biggest
barrier, and I took hits alongthe way because people didn't
think that I should be spendingthat much time on that.
So it was just one of thosethose things where I had to,
very early on, say, am I goingto do what's best for the church
or am I going to set aboutdeveloping relationships with
(11:50):
people so that I do what theywant me to do?
You know, looking back, I don'tthink I would have known this
at the time, but looking back Isaw that the stress and the I
would say I was bordering onburnout then.
But then COVID hit and you know,initially that caused stress
(12:13):
and anxiety to spike, Cause it'slike, what are we doing?
But then we went through theseason where, you know,
everything existed online andthings calmed down.
We weren't doing 19 things aweek, we weren't doing all this.
It was just, you know, let'sget what we have to do to get a
Sunday service, you know, sharedout online or whatever.
(12:35):
And so I think I actually foundrest during that COVID season.
Again, I wouldn't have noticedthat what isn't said that at the
time.
But I think looking back, thatI was really close to burnout
there and COVID kind of gave mea reprieve.
But then in the middle of that,you know, we got called to
(12:58):
another church and the church wewere at got adopted by a larger
church campus and you know,they were able to pay off their
debt and the financial situationwas a lot, a lot better when we
left and I started at this atthis other church that finances
were strong.
They had a strong leadershipteam.
It looked like a lot ofstructure in place, which is
(13:20):
what was lacking at the firstchurch.
But again, that was duringCOVID that we made that
transition, so I couldn't seeall the things that were behind
the scenes because nothing washappening Right, because you
said that at some point youended up leaving that second
church sooner than what youplanned.
Margie (13:41):
But trying to pastor an unhealthy church was doing real
damage to my family.
I told my wife that if wedidn't leave this would kill me
and I was not being dramatic.
There are many nights I went tobed wondering if I would wake
up in the morning.
Tanner (13:58):
Yeah, yeah.
So I mean there's a lot inthose few statements.
You know we went to the churchin michigan and we we thought we
were going to be there.
You know, in my head was tillthe kids graduated from high
school.
Like we've already moved them acouple times.
It was, it seemed like a goodcommunity and we really want to
put down roots.
Like I'm familiar with thestatistics that say the longer
(14:21):
pastor's at a church, you knowthere's fruit, that happens.
You know that can't happenearly on.
All of that.
We went in there.
You know they ask you whenyou're interviewing at a church
how long you're going to stayand I said, you know, I think
five years is is like theminimum for me in my mind, and
not that I'm planning on usingthat church as a stepping stone
to another place.
I think that's what they wereconcerned about.
(14:43):
But but yeah, like I foundmyself two of my three kids were
wrestling with tremendousamount of anxiety and on
medication or seeing counseling.
I started seeing a counselorand was on medication.
I ended up in the emergencyroom one night panic attack, I
(15:03):
don't know what it was, anxiety,whatever, but like my pulse
wouldn't come down.
It was like I was running amarathon.
It just stayed there and mywife finally had enough and said
you're going.
So we went, like that was a hugewake up call, because I thought
I just wasn't feeling great.
I just thought I wasn't.
You know myself, but if I get alittle bit of rest, or I solve
(15:26):
this problem or I get a vacationor whatever, like I'd be back
to normal, but like I justwasn't, wasn't snapping back.
And my dad passed away at apretty young age in his in his
sleep.
He had a heart attack at theage of 44 while sleeping.
And so that, like my statementin my head, like it it it sounds
dramatic saying well, gonna goto sleep and I don't know if
I'll wake up.
But like I thought that at nightthere was nights where you know
(15:50):
I'm like, if I close my eyes,will I ever open them again?
Like it was just I knew I wasunhealthy, um, physically,
emotionally, mentally.
I knew I wasn't the dad that Iwanted to be, I definitely
wasn't the husband I wanted tobe and, uh, honestly, I wasn't
doing a very good job pastoringeither, right, like it just
everything crashed and it wasjust like well, if I'm doing all
(16:12):
of these things, if I putmyself in the situation where
I'm stressed and tired, in myhead it was like well, if I'm
accomplishing something, it'sworthwhile, you know, like it's
just me doing what I have to doto get the job done.
But when I started failing ateverything, like I sat in front
of one of our board meetings andsaid, guys, I, I'm operating at
like 35 right now, like youknow, sitting down to write a
(16:35):
sermon was incredibly difficultbecause I was struggling to
think I, I just um, I don't knowhow to explain it, other than
there was like a numbness, butwith like a buzzing, like my
whole, my whole self was buzzing.
Like there was just thisoverwhelmed energy.
That was just I don't know andso so.
(16:58):
But even in those moments itwas just like, well, I'm just,
I'm just tired, or whatever.
Like I didn't want to applythat, that burnout, because I
think I said it in the, in thepre-show.
Like I didn't, or you know,before we started recording, I I
didn't apply burnout to myselfbecause, like I'm not one of
these workaholics, I'm not acontrol freak, I'm not a you
(17:20):
know somebody that you know,when I think of burnout, I think
it's I was trying to do less,you know like I said you had
said, well, if I fix thisproblem, then everything's going
to be good.
Margie (17:39):
And then something else would come up which sounds like
some kind of pastoral version ofwhack-a-mole that you can't get
ahead of.
Tanner (17:47):
Yeah, yeah, and that's I mean I think that's how I
justified it for as long as Idid was just that well, if I get
this solved, or maybe not eventhat, but just the reality of
being a senior leader in anorganization where, like, if I
don't do this and this, it's notarrogance, it's not pride, it's
(18:07):
just if I'm, if I don't do this, it's not going to get done.
Or if I don't, if I don'tintervene, things are going to
get worse.
You know having to step inbetween two grown adults arguing
at a board meeting, like I hadto put myself in the middle of
that.
Or you know conflicts in thechurch or people in positions
that they probably shouldn'thave been in.
(18:28):
You know it creates problems.
Margie (18:32):
It creates, you know, conflict and hurt and you're
saying and you're saying is thiswhat I went into ministry to do
?
Tanner (18:40):
Well, and, and I mean I, I cared about the people at the
church and one of the thingsthat I've learned over the years
is like, before pastoringfull-time, I was in logistics
management, like I, warehousingand transportation and that type
of thing, and so my initialinstincts to everything is
organizational right, and so Ithought when I went to full-time
(19:02):
pastoral ministry I needed tofocus more like individual,
relational.
But what I discovered throughexperience and maybe people have
other conclusions but I come tothe conclusion that, like so
much of the hurt and conflict inchurches right now isn't
because one bad person hurtanother person.
It's it's lack of clarity androles and responsibility.
(19:23):
It's a lack of understanding of, I mean, the number of times
that people said well, who saidthey could do that, or I was
doing that, or they stepped inmy territory, or they hurt my
feelings because they didsomething I was supposed to do
that dysfunction in organizationcreates hurt at a pace that
individual, you know, justhaving one mean person couldn't
(19:45):
handle.
And so that was my mentality islike if I can get the culture
healthy, the organizationhealthy, then these hurts will
go away.
But as we solve problems, as wemove through things I can't
remember who said it, but I waslistening to a podcast that
talked about church leadership,being a pastor, and that your
(20:06):
leadership staff and churchleaders need to be problem
solvers, like they should cometo you with solutions to
problems, and that what oftenhappens is you end up with a
bunch of church problemdeliverers.
And that was that was a culturethat I found myself in.
I had a large team which, onthe surface, feels like I should
be able to accomplish a lot,but it just meant there was more
(20:28):
people that had problems thatthey needed my input on, and so,
and you were the fixer of allthings.
Yeah, and I mean, and in mymost cynical moments I said they
just hired me to come and be anemployee for them.
Right, like, I'm not, I'm not apastor, I'm just the fixer.
And then it was just hard forme when I really started to
(20:50):
struggle to find space.
My kids went to the same schoolas some of the other staff, and
so I'd run into people in theparking lot that wanted to talk
about church-related issues.
You know, I'm in my you knowshorts and hooded sweatshirt,
not, you know, not even ready tostart the day yet.
And you know, and because theyknew I was going to be there,
(21:11):
they would come prepared to talkabout something.
Or my kids were at the daycarewhich our church ran, and so I'd
go pick up my kids at the endof the day.
And a spontaneous meetinghappened, because they knew that
at a certain point I would comeand pick up my kids and it just
, it just expounded like that,the feeling that I I there was
(21:33):
no place I could go, that I wasnot responsible for other
people's problems.
You know what I mean?
Margie (21:38):
Yeah, yeah, well, that's a and that's a heavy load.
Then At what point then did yousay to yourself, okay, there's
got to be some other way for meto live into my call, or?
Tanner (21:54):
yeah, yeah, I think I mean the real.
Like I said, when I ended up inthe er there was the wake-up
call if I got to do something.
But even after that it took mea while.
Actually it took my wife tokind of kick me in the butt a
little bit to get me to see acounselor and and with some
folks.
But the question was, what do Ido If you feel called to
(22:17):
ministry, you pastor a church,right, that's what you do.
And I just really wrestled withthe idea that I have to do all
these things and go through allthese barriers to share my faith
with people or to pray withpeople or to.
You know, I, when I worked inwarehousing, I had more honest
(22:40):
conversations with with peoplethat were on it, just because it
was just a faith conversation.
It wasn't about church financesor what color the I mean the
stereotypical carpetconversation like that was
happening at one of my churches,the you know pews or chairs, or
you know we put tables in thesanctuary for a sermon series
(23:01):
and and people.
It's not spiritual to havetables like all of that nonsense
.
I'm like I'm just trying toteach people about jesus and you
pray with people that that need.
So I just found myself reallystruggling to even do the basic
things I was supposed to bedoing.
And that's when, like, oh,that's it, this is burnout.
(23:22):
This is, this is what it is.
You know, my, my dog loved itbecause I was at home on the
couch all the time.
That that was her favoritething is when I was home on the.
You know I would, I could dosome work.
You know, so much of stuff isdone, you know, remotely now,
but it's just the productivitywasn't there, the drive wasn't
(23:43):
there.
When my phone would ring, Iwould avoid it.
You know, it was just that typeof thing where I was like not
only am I struggling with theidea of being a pastor, like I'm
not past right and so I'm likea pastor should at least want to
go to church on sunday, and Ididn't like you know.
I mean it was just that levelof and I felt bad because it was
(24:04):
like this congregation deservesa pastor that wants to pastor
them, and I wasn't living up towhat I felt like my
responsibilities were.
And there was a whole, a whole,a whole chain of things, but it
was just kind of this idea oflike, what if we went back home
and that wasn't even necessarilya sense of, of calling, it was
(24:24):
more along the lines of mywife's grandma passed away and I
wasn't able to be there.
You know, I'd known Darlene for, you know, 20 some years and
because of my churchresponsibilities I wasn't able
to be there.
You know, I'd known Darlene for, you know, 20 some years and
because of my churchresponsibilities I wasn't able.
I was actually doing a funeralfor somebody else that day and
there was just that sense oflike I'm taking care of other
(24:44):
people but I'm missing out onthe people that matter most.
I'm not able to be there forthem.
So that's where the draw, tocome back home, was I hadn't
been around.
You know, my mom was, was hadsome health issues and it's like
my kids don't know grandma thatwell.
I mean, they know her becauseshe comes and visits.
But it's just that was wherethat initial came from.
(25:04):
And as soon as, like, my wifeand I came to that decision,
like, yes, this is our next move.
Like it was, the weight cameoff.
I still had responsibilitiesthere, but it was like I'm no
longer holding myselfresponsible for the future of
this, this church, and andhonestly, I've, you know,
(25:26):
learned, learned a lesson alongthe way it's god's church, it's
not my church.
There's problems problemsbefore I got there.
There'll be problems after I'mthere, it seems kind of arrogant
to think that I could fixeverything.
But but it was once I startedthe the process of moving back
home that I felt this likestirring again and there was a
(25:48):
little bit of just this downtimewhere I didn't want to do
anything and I just needed rest.
But that didn't last as long asI thought it was going to.
Margie (25:56):
How long did it last?
Tanner (25:58):
A couple of weeks, and I mean part of that was job
transition and I transitioned toa job that I'm really enjoying,
so it was fulfilling, but itwasn't a heavy stress load Like
I got eased into this position.
My onboarding was super lowintensity, which I totally
appreciate, so I felt like I hada little bit of rest through
(26:20):
that.
But it wasn't like I said.
It wasn't long and the desireto write kicked in and so I've
been.
I've been, I've got a blog andhardly anybody reads it, but I
write because it's good for me.
But I've also been writingsermons, and not that I'm
preaching them, but I'm stillwriting.
There was just more.
And I've been talking with mywife about doing something like
(26:43):
a hybrid dinner small group typething in our hometown now and
some other ministry relatedthings, some other ministry
related things and like that, asas I stepped away from the
thing that was was dragging medown and got a little bit of
space, like clarity of callingkicked in, like I really started
to understand you know, thethings that I've been frustrated
with or struggling with overthe past few years.
(27:06):
I feel like God is saying well,let's not try and hit, let's not
try and tackle those thingsright now.
Let's, let's focus on what youfeel most passionate about and,
uh, let's maybe we don't have tohave all the details so like
this.
They said this this dinnerchurch type thing we're thinking
about.
You know, probably the mostfruitful ministry that I've had
in both churches that I was atwas we we'd started like a young
(27:29):
adults small group in our homeon Sunday evenings and we'd have
food and play games and talkand then just talk about the
sermon from the day, and thatwas like the most effective
discipleship that I'veparticipated in or that I've led
, but also the greatest sense ofcommunity that I've been a part
of.
And so it's like well, can wereplicate that like why do I
(27:53):
have to have the building andthe pews and the?
You know all?
of that like the carpet rightand the carpet and all that like
I want to focus on onrelational ministry and I want
to share faith with people thatare really interested in, that,
are searching for something, andso, like the, the image that
(28:16):
came to my mind was that the twodisciples walking away from
jerusalem after jesus iscrucified and they don't know
he's resurrected yet.
And they're walking on the roadand yeah, and so they're
discouraged, they think theplan's gone off the rails, like
their faith has let them downand they don't really know what
to do next.
So they're just going to gohome and like that's the image
(28:39):
of like my mission field now.
Like the church culture has hasis prevalent enough in society
that people have religiousexperiences one way or the other
, one way or the other.
But like in the town we're innow, you know there's been a
church split, church closing, achurch plant that tried to
launch and failed.
There's a lot of likeexperience with faith and
(29:01):
religion but a lot ofdisappointment, like I can see
people in that and so like let'sget some people together and
and share a meal.
Jesus showed up to thosedisciples when they broke bread,
so let's break bread and talkabout, see where Jesus is in all
this and I got so excited aboutthis that it was clarity of
(29:26):
calling and purpose.
But like I sat down and justmapped out, I'm a planner by
nature and I just mapped outlike the whole thing and it's
like I said I've been, I've beenwriting for the sermons for
this church that doesn't existyet.
You know, I'm taking a newapproach but, like it took me, I
had to have permission to tothink outside of the typical
(29:47):
structure, right Like, like Isaid, when you feel called to
ministry, you think you're goingto pastor a church.
And it took me a while to cometo the point where I was like no
, we can do something different.
I mean the missional churcheshouse churches, neighborhood
missional movements those typesof things really helped me grasp
that sense of we can do thingsa little differently.
Margie (30:07):
It hasn't always been the way that I've experienced it
always been the way that I'veexperienced it Sure, sure, and
this is in part why I feelcalled to do what I'm doing,
with nudging pastors towardsself-care and a slower pace so
that they can hear the daringcall of the Spirit and follow,
(30:30):
because I think the church todayis in a lot of transitions.
Transitions are hard and Ithink that you can't hear the
daring call of the spirit ifyou're running like a crazy
person on the hamster wheel.
You just can't, and I think inthis transitional time can't,
(30:51):
and I think in this transitionaltime, god is going to ask us to
do some new things, and so itmay not look like the
traditional.
I'm called and therefore thatmeans I am a pastor, but you
(31:15):
still can be pastoral inwhatever place that God plants
your feet, and it may just lookdifferent and that's kind of
exciting.
Tanner (31:19):
Yeah, and, and I think what you said right there and
why I appreciate you know yourpodcast and and and just the,
the growing conversation aboutself-care for pastors and I was
I was worthless to peoplebecause I did, you know, like
you know, I mean I rememberpastoral care and counseling
classes, the first in bothundergrad and in my graduate
(31:42):
classes.
Both times I took that coursethey talked about the.
You know, you're on an airplaneand it loses pressure.
The masks come down, put yourown on first, because you can't
help anybody if you've passedout Like I know that in my head,
but it just felt like I neverprioritizing self-care seems
(32:02):
selfish.
And so I appreciate theconversation because it, you
know you're bringing attentionto it and others bringing
attention to it and providingresources and even just talking
about it, making it seem likeit's a real thing.
Is it helped crack through mysense of what I thought about
self-care?
(32:22):
Right Like, and it wasn't.
I thought bad things aboutself-care.
I was just thought I didn'tneed it, right Like I'm, I'm
doing fine, until I wasn't.
Margie (32:31):
Right, right.
Well, that's and that's.
You know why?
And I I know I've shared myburnout stuff before on the
podcast and stuff and that's whyI feel very strongly about this
, because they will tell you inclass this is what you should be
doing and for some reason itjust goes by the wayside.
(32:52):
Or they think I just have topray more and read my Bible more
and I'll be fine.
And I'm not saying either ofthose things are not helpful or
good.
I'm just saying we are finitepeople.
It dawned on me one time, afriend of mine.
I was like why am I like this?
Why am I so upset?
Why am I this?
And she said I was like why amI like this?
(33:14):
Why am I so upset?
Why am I this?
And she said you know, it'sbecause you're human.
And I thought what a light bulbmoment.
Yeah, I'm human and I'm finiteand I'm like in scripture it
says I'm like the grass that'sgoing to wither someday and I
always want to think that I'm aperennial and I think I'm an
annual, though.
(33:34):
I mean it's that kind of thingthat we have going.
I don't know if I want toascribe pride to it, really,
because that seems a littleharsh, but I just think we get
so busy because in United Statesculture, busy is the thing.
If you're busy, you have to bebusy in order to be successful,
(33:56):
and what pastor doesn't want tobe successful in the spiritual
things like making disciples?
But then you get there and yourealize you're going to fuel
yourself through rest.
Tanner (34:19):
Yeah.
Margie (34:19):
You forget all that because the to-do list is so
blasted big.
Tanner (34:25):
Yeah, and you brought up pride, but for me, I think
initially it was insecurity.
You know pride, but I, for forme, I think initially it was it
was insecurity, like I, when Iwould do things for myself or
with my family, I felt like Ineeded to justify it.
Oh, because there were thingsthat needed attention, there was
people that needed help and youknow if I'm out, you know if
(34:47):
I'm out golfing or you knowdoing something else like I
almost feel like I have tojustify, had to justify that
because there was, there wasneeds that weren't being met
while I was doing that, and so Ithink it became insecurity,
like I had to.
And which is it's so sillybecause you know I, I know the
stories right, so you know theHebrews in captivity in in Egypt
(35:12):
and you know Moses comes, letmy people go, and all that, and
they go out into the wildernessand one of the first thing that
God tells them they have to dois keep a Sabbath.
You know, like this is socritically important.
This is going to befoundational to who you are and
how you live.
Keep a Sabbath Like this is onthe same level.
As you know, don't murder,don't have other gods Right,
(35:32):
live, keep a sabbath.
Like this is on the same levelas you know, don't murder, don't
have other gods right.
Like, keep a sabbath.
And somehow, when I think youpointed out you know american
culture like that's a sin,you're never going to get called
out on working too much.
I, I, I started keeping ajournal and a planner and I
write out my sabbath plan and I,wouldn't you know, started
keeping a journal and a plannerand I write out my sabbath plan
(35:53):
and I wouldn't, you know,sometimes I'd keep it, sometimes
I wouldn't.
But I think that's one of thethings that I noticed most.
That first week where I wasn'ta full-time pastor, that sunday
morning came along and and I wasrested and relaxed and I'm like
(36:14):
, oh, this is Sabbath.
And I'm like how do I hang onto this?
A friend of mine is like, well,you've discovered the weekend.
I'm like, yeah, there's thisthing called the weekend.
This is what God wants for allof us, on a weekly basis, to
(36:35):
enjoy life.
It's meant to be, you know, the, the biblical, the new
Testament imagery of the greatfeast, the great banquet.
Like we're invited to this andit's not our party, we're not
responsible for the catering orthe.
You know like he wants us toenjoy it.
Margie (36:50):
I forgot how you know what I mean he wants us to enjoy
it.
Tanner (36:53):
I forgot how.
You know what I mean.
I felt like I was a worker.
That was my job to.
Margie (36:58):
Worker be.
Tanner (36:59):
Yeah.
Margie (36:59):
So if you could give one word of wisdom, say to yourself
before you entered pastoralministry, what do you think you
might say?
Tanner (37:13):
Look for God, because there's a lot of things that are
in the life of a church butit's not necessarily.
I don't know.
Use the word spiritual lightly,but not necessarily like well,
I'll just say spiritual, it'snot a spiritual thing.
And so look for Jesus, look forthat and just lean into it and
(37:35):
let that be the priority.
And yeah, I think sometimesit's easy to get.
It was easy for me to getcaught up in all the things.
I think the message would bejust do this, be faithful to the
things god wants us to do.
You know, pray, read, restsabbath, you know it's.
(37:59):
Keep it simple, maybe that olddata it and let things, let the
spirit work out.
Everything else, you know, Idon't, I don't have any.
I mean I have some regrets, butlike I don't, if I could go
back in time, I time I wouldn'tdo it many things much different
, but I think that would be.
(38:19):
The key is trust, that beingfaithful is enough.
And yeah, you can't fixeverything.
Just be faithful in what you'recalled to do.
I like that.
Margie (38:32):
Yeah, I like that.
Tanner (38:33):
Yeah.
Margie (38:33):
I like that.
I like the simplicity of itbecause it feels like it gets
more complicated at some pointalong the way and that's not
quite so fun, because I think alot of pastors go into and are
called into ministry and theyhave ideas about what they're.
Ideas about what they're.
(38:54):
I think I could count on onehand the number of intense
spiritual conversations I hadwith congregants and it wasn't
because I wasn't available orwhatever.
It just wasn't happening therelike that.
And there's aspects of what weend up doing that it gets a
little disappointing, especiallywhen it draws us away from
where we felt God calling us tobe.
Tanner (39:17):
Yeah, and I read Eugene Peterson's memoir, the Pastor,
and as I was reading throughthat there were so many moments
of just like yes, this exactly.
And one of the things he talkedabout was his experience of
finishing seminary and going tohis first church and being just
(39:37):
utterly shocked at how littlethe church people cared about
the things of God.
He just assumed that that's whythey were part of the church,
that's why they're going to bethere, that's the focal point,
you know, and it was.
It was meetings and potlucksand you know, social events and
all.
And he's just like, well, whatabout the things of God?
And like that I could relate tothat experience.
(40:00):
Because he said I didn't gointo ministry because I wanted
attention.
Like public speaking was not myfavorite thing.
I didn't want to be up on theplatform.
I didn't want the spotlightthing.
I didn't want to be up on theplatform.
I didn't want the spotlight.
I just I honestly wanted tocare about people, the way that
I had received love and care andcompassion through the church
that I grew up in and I thoughtthere was a compelling story of
(40:23):
scripture and I thought peopleneeded to know it.
And yeah, it was just.
I think that's my greatestfrustration is is the church has
gathered people for a varietyof reasons, and sometimes Jesus
isn't really a part of it at all.
Margie (40:40):
And you almost feel bad saying that or seeing that.
Yeah, as I said, it's achallenging era to be a part of.
I've said for a while, hey, Ithink we're all Jeremiah be a
part of.
I've said for a while, hey, Ithink we're all Jeremiah.
As sad as that, you know,because you looked at Jeremiah
and I thought, man, his statsfor conversions aren't too good,
(41:01):
are they?
But yeah, it's a challengingera, but the real big thrill is
watching somebody recapture theessence of what God called you
to be and to be about.
And I really want to say Iappreciate so much your honesty
and your sincerity to come andshare on the Krabby Pastor
(41:25):
podcast.
One less Krabby Pastor, right.
Tanner (41:31):
Yep, yep, and I'm glad too, because I mean, you can
feel alone.
I think that's what's so greatabout what you're doing is
sharing stories like this.
You know you feel isolated, youfeel like nobody else is going
through this, or yeah, so Ithink it's great.
Margie (41:48):
Well, I appreciate that and blessings on you and your
ministry, whichever way it goes,with the dinner church and the
work that you do at OlivetNazarene.
And thank you so much forcoming on and sharing.
I appreciate that.
Tanner (42:02):
Yeah, it's been a good conversation, thanks.
Margie (42:06):
Are you wondering whether your fatigue, your lack
of motivation, your lack ofinterest is burnout maybe?
I just wanted to let you knowthat I have a resource on the
website, margiebricecom that'sB-R-Y-C-E MargieBricecom R Y C E
(42:33):
Margie Brycecom, and it is aburnout questionnaire, free for
you to download and kind of selfassess and get a sense of where
you're at.
There are questions that notonly ask about what you're going
through, but maybe how oftenyou're experiencing it and
that's that's kind of a key towhere you might be, because you
(42:54):
have to know where you are inorder to chart a course forward.
And most pastors who experiencepastors and ministry leaders
who experience burnout rarelyknow that that's where they're
at until they're well into it.
And if you're unsure about thatlittle statistic, so far,
(43:18):
everybody that I've interviewedon this podcast who has
experienced burnout, when Iasked that kind of question,
they're like, yeah, I didn'tknow, that's where I was at.
So again, go to margiebricecomit's on the homepage of the
website and you can get yourburnout questionnaire and kind
(43:40):
of see where you're at.
Hey friends, the Crabby Pastorpodcast is sponsored by Bryce
Art Glass and you can find thaton Facebook.
I make stained glass as part ofmy self-care, and also by Bryce
Coaching, where I coach ministryleaders and business leaders,
(44:04):
and so the funds that I generatefrom coaching and from making
stained glass is what issupporting this podcast and I
will have opportunities for youto be a part of sponsoring me
and, as always, you can do thebuy me a cup of coffee thing in
(44:25):
the in the show notes.
But I will have some other waysthat you can be a part of
getting the word out about theimportance of healthy self-care
for ministry leaders.
Hey, thanks for listening.
It is my deep desire andpassion to champion issues of
(44:49):
sustainability in ministry andfor your life, so I'm here to
help.
I stepped back from pastoralministry and I feel called to
help ministry leaders create andcultivate sustainability in
their lives so that they can gothe distance with God and
(45:11):
whatever plans that God has foryou.
I would love to help, I wouldconsider it an honor and, in all
things, make sure you connectto these sustainability
practices you know, so that youdon't become the crabby pastor.
Hey there, Margie Bryce here bringing you the Crabby
Pastor podcast, and I don'tthink you're going to be too
surprised to know that it's tooeasy today to become the Crabby
Pastor.
Our time together will give youfood for thought to help you be
the ministry leader fullysurrendered to God's purposes
(00:24):
and living into whatever ittakes to get you there and keep
you there.
So we're talking aboutsustainability in ministry.
Hey there, this is Margie Bryce, host of the Crabby Pastor
Podcast, and I know well I cantell from the stats anyway that
(00:48):
one area of interest is whenpastors are courageous and come
on here and tell their storiesof burnout, of challenge and how
they were moved beyond that andjust all the wisdom that they
learn, because I was just sayingin our pre-chat interview with
this pastor that we're about tochat with that you learn more
(01:11):
from failure than you do fromsuccess and personally I
absolutely detest that, but thatis so, so true across the board
.
So I'm here today with ReverendTanner Griffin and I am going
to let you, tanner, introduceyourself.
Tanner (01:31):
Okay, well, thanks for having me with this conversation
.
Like I said, I'm Tanner Griffin.
I'm an ordained elder in theChurch of the Nazarene.
For the past seven years I'vebeen a senior pastor at a couple
different churches ruralIndiana and then, most recently,
you know, kind of centralMichigan more on the western
side, I guess but as of two,three months ago, I made the
(01:54):
decision to step out offull-time pastoral ministry and
move back home, and a big partof that and this is where it
connects with where your podcasthas been has been coming to the
realization that I was inburnout, that it was affecting
my family and, despite my bestefforts over the last several
(02:16):
years of learning better timemanagement skills and all the
different things settingboundaries I listened to a
million podcasts, read a millionbooks, tried to do everything I
could to keep myself healthy Iended up in that burnout
category and so kind ofreinventing life here, but also,
(02:40):
for the first time in a while,feeling excited about what's
ahead and really living intothat sense of calling.
So it's kind of ironic when youtell people that you're stepping
away from full-time ministry,they often ask you know, is it a
faith crisis?
Or, you know, are you upsetabout, you know, is it doubt or
(03:00):
whatever and honestly it was anattempt to be faithful, right.
I feel like God was moving usin a different direction and
gave me a more clarified visionof how I should be spending my
time and be steward of this call.
Margie (03:16):
I like that.
I like that it's tied to calland sometimes God does move us
in unexpected ways and tounexpected places, and then you
still can come out of that witha strong sense of there was
purpose in the mess that I justwalked through and that's kind
(03:38):
of a neat thing to behold afterthe fact.
It may not be so great whileyou're trudging through it.
Trudging through the mess, it'snot so fun there.
But yeah, I liked a lot of whatyou had to say then about call.
So why don't you start then atthe very beginning?
Because what happens is you cansay burnout and nobody sees
(04:04):
burnout coming in themselves, orwhen they're in the midst of it
.
Maybe if you have a very braveadministrative assistant or your
family say hey, this is your,this is not good, but otherwise
you don't see it coming.
So why don't you take us backto start where you'd like us to
(04:28):
start?
Tanner (04:28):
Okay, I mean to focus on kind of the sneaking up on
burnout thing, because I agreewith you, you don't see it
coming and, like I said beforewe started recording, I've
really struggled to apply thatterm to myself for a while
because I felt like it haddifferent implications.
Apply that term to myself for awhile because I felt like it
had different implications.
But I felt called to pastoralministry and it was kind of a
(04:55):
little bit later in life.
I had family when we firstentered into full-time ministry
my wife and three kids.
The oldest was 11, 10, and theyoungest was a year old and I
had a three-year-old in themiddle there.
And so you know, we moved thefamily and you know, at this
church and as is typical of alot of medium small churches now
(05:16):
, there's just a lot of you know, the catchy phrase is deferred
maintenance and that applies tophysical structures, but there's
a lot of I would call deferredmaintenance in community
organizational life as well.
So the organizational health,it, just it just there were some
things that needed attentionand, as we are kind of have a
tendency to do, um, those arethe things we wanted to avoid,
(05:40):
you know, pretend like didn'texist and actually, you know, I
had a member of the church boardupset with me at one point
because he said why would you,why would you say we had this
problem?
And I was like because we do?
You know, it was just one ofthose, one of those realities
where you know, naming it whichseemed like an obvious step for
me was the was the majortriggering thing for folks, and
(06:01):
so well, sure, sure.
Margie (06:02):
And then you're, you're what?
What I think has happened andyou captured this when we talked
before the podcast that whathas happened is other people
have left things unattended andjust passed it along to the next
person, to the next pastor, tothe next pastor, to the next
pastor.
So you know, I mean you'retalking or thinking about a
(06:25):
compounding snowball, almost.
Tanner (06:28):
Yeah, and I think I think I always want to avoid the
sense of like the pastor thatwas there before me didn't do
the right thing or something.
I don't want to give thatimpression.
I just think, like when, whenwe go in, especially if it's
somebody that you know felt acall to ministry early on and
went to school, went to seminary, and then you walk into a
(06:49):
church and you're ready topreach and teach and pray and
you know this is what you'vebeen trained for, study
scriptures and all those typesof things, and then you're
suddenly met with you knowbudgets and buildings and you
know all those types of things.
I think pastors are naturallygravitate towards the pastoral
things, and so the things thatthat I've wrestled the most with
(07:14):
weren't in that area, but itwas more of the you know
organizational.
You know I put in my note toyou that the you know I kind of
got tired of running a religiousorganization and that's that's
the side of things that seems toget neglected or where there's
the greatest need, I guess.
Margie (07:30):
Sure, sure, because you're talking about
organizational stuff and you cancome in and sometimes there's
organizational dysfunction.
Tanner (07:39):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so you know you set abouttrying to tackle those things,
and you know there's people thatI mean, I think people have
unrealistic expectations of whata senior pastor can do,
especially a solo senior pastor.
You know, run the business ofthe church, do all the spiritual
(08:04):
things, visit folks, convincepeople to come back to the
church that have left, and thensomehow, on a Sunday, show up
and have a you know, a sermonthat you know compares to
whoever you can see online youknow what I mean.
Like that's it.
They've spent a whole, you knowwhatever month preparing for
that one talk or something,anyways, and so it's just a
(08:27):
heavy expectation.
And, as that being my firstpastoral, full-time pastoral
role, I wanted to be good at it,you know, and so I wanted to be
successful and I worked reallyhard, you know, to try and meet
all those expectations, whichjust that's a bad strategy.
And so I had to start learningabout boundaries and
(08:51):
prioritizing my own goals andbeing okay with some people
being upset with me, you know Idid like what you wrote here.
Margie (08:58):
You wrote because I was kind of this myself with, but
with any church that that I wasover, I felt like I had the
choice of getting people to likeme or doing what was right for
the church and that's a real bigpicture, focus, mile high view,
so to speak.
(09:19):
While I can not address thisand just let it continue to
perpetuate, or I can addressthis and it'll be challenging,
it'll be a little bit hard, butat the end of the day it's going
to position this church and putthem in a better place and you
know that's a pastoral urging aswell.
Tanner (09:40):
Yeah, and so the first church I was at, the financial
situation was the reality it had.
The church finances had been anissue for a while but it had a
daycare center that wasproviding revenue to keep it
afloat.
But then the community, thelocal school district, got a
grant to do daycare at theschool where it was costing
(10:01):
parents almost nothing and itjust kind of gutted the daycare
at the school where it wascosting parents almost nothing
and it just kind of gutted thedaycare at that at that time.
And so the month before weclosed on our house into this
area so we'd been at the churchfor three months maybe I saw my
first full like financialsnapshot.
And you know the church spentthousands of dollars more than
(10:22):
it brought in.
And here I am going to buy thishouse with my, you know, with
my family and I'm like I don'tthink the church can afford us.
And that was the battle fromfrom day one.
You know there was times where,you know the church, our bank
account was 15 bucks.
Margie (10:40):
You know there was times where your personal one or the
church, the church, the churchone.
Tanner (10:46):
Yeah, like we we, we were in a in a tight place, and
so I spent a lot of time digginginto the budget Right, because
it just wasn't the budgetprocess, it wasn't something
that was strong in this church,and so I spent a lot of time
trying to get my head around thefinancials and, you know,
(11:07):
people started posting passive,aggressively on social media.
You know it's hard, it's hardto, it's hard to love your
people when all you want to dois look at spreadsheets and I
was like I know what you'resaying, but like if the church
closes, like if we run out ofit's just so.
It's that type of thing thatjust wears on you.
Like I was determined thatfixing the financial realities
(11:30):
was step number one, Like thatwas going to be the biggest
barrier, and I took hits alongthe way because people didn't
think that I should be spendingthat much time on that.
So it was just one of thosethose things where I had to,
very early on, say, am I goingto do what's best for the church
or am I going to set aboutdeveloping relationships with
(11:50):
people so that I do what theywant me to do?
You know, looking back, I don'tthink I would have known this
at the time, but looking back Isaw that the stress and the I
would say I was bordering onburnout then.
But then COVID hit and you know,initially that caused stress
(12:13):
and anxiety to spike, Cause it'slike, what are we doing?
But then we went through theseason where, you know,
everything existed online andthings calmed down.
We weren't doing 19 things aweek, we weren't doing all this.
It was just, you know, let'sget what we have to do to get a
Sunday service, you know, sharedout online or whatever.
(12:35):
And so I think I actually foundrest during that COVID season.
Again, I wouldn't have noticedthat what isn't said that at the
time.
But I think looking back, thatI was really close to burnout
there and COVID kind of gave mea reprieve.
But then in the middle of that,you know, we got called to
(12:58):
another church and the church wewere at got adopted by a larger
church campus and you know,they were able to pay off their
debt and the financial situationwas a lot, a lot better when we
left and I started at this atthis other church that finances
were strong.
They had a strong leadershipteam.
It looked like a lot ofstructure in place, which is
(13:20):
what was lacking at the firstchurch.
But again, that was duringCOVID that we made that
transition, so I couldn't seeall the things that were behind
the scenes because nothing washappening Right, because you
said that at some point youended up leaving that second
church sooner than what youplanned.
Margie (13:41):
But trying to pastor an unhealthy church was doing real
damage to my family.
I told my wife that if wedidn't leave this would kill me
and I was not being dramatic.
There are many nights I went tobed wondering if I would wake
up in the morning.
Tanner (13:58):
Yeah, yeah.
So I mean there's a lot inthose few statements.
You know we went to the churchin michigan and we we thought we
were going to be there.
You know, in my head was tillthe kids graduated from high
school.
Like we've already moved them acouple times.
It was, it seemed like a goodcommunity and we really want to
put down roots.
Like I'm familiar with thestatistics that say the longer
(14:21):
pastor's at a church, you knowthere's fruit, that happens.
You know that can't happenearly on.
All of that.
We went in there.
You know they ask you whenyou're interviewing at a church
how long you're going to stayand I said, you know, I think
five years is is like theminimum for me in my mind, and
not that I'm planning on usingthat church as a stepping stone
to another place.
I think that's what they wereconcerned about.
(14:43):
But but yeah, like I foundmyself two of my three kids were
wrestling with tremendousamount of anxiety and on
medication or seeing counseling.
I started seeing a counselorand was on medication.
I ended up in the emergencyroom one night panic attack, I
(15:03):
don't know what it was, anxiety,whatever, but like my pulse
wouldn't come down.
It was like I was running amarathon.
It just stayed there and mywife finally had enough and said
you're going.
So we went, like that was a hugewake up call, because I thought
I just wasn't feeling great.
I just thought I wasn't.
You know myself, but if I get alittle bit of rest, or I solve
(15:26):
this problem or I get a vacationor whatever, like I'd be back
to normal, but like I justwasn't, wasn't snapping back.
And my dad passed away at apretty young age in his in his
sleep.
He had a heart attack at theage of 44 while sleeping.
And so that, like my statementin my head, like it it it sounds
dramatic saying well, gonna goto sleep and I don't know if
I'll wake up.
But like I thought that at nightthere was nights where you know
(15:50):
I'm like, if I close my eyes,will I ever open them again?
Like it was just I knew I wasunhealthy, um, physically,
emotionally, mentally.
I knew I wasn't the dad that Iwanted to be, I definitely
wasn't the husband I wanted tobe and, uh, honestly, I wasn't
doing a very good job pastoringeither, right, like it just
everything crashed and it wasjust like well, if I'm doing all
(16:12):
of these things, if I putmyself in the situation where
I'm stressed and tired, in myhead it was like well, if I'm
accomplishing something, it'sworthwhile, you know, like it's
just me doing what I have to doto get the job done.
But when I started failing ateverything, like I sat in front
of one of our board meetings andsaid, guys, I, I'm operating at
like 35 right now, like youknow, sitting down to write a
(16:35):
sermon was incredibly difficultbecause I was struggling to
think I, I just um, I don't knowhow to explain it, other than
there was like a numbness, butwith like a buzzing, like my
whole, my whole self was buzzing.
Like there was just thisoverwhelmed energy.
That was just I don't know andso so.
(16:58):
But even in those moments itwas just like, well, I'm just,
I'm just tired, or whatever.
Like I didn't want to applythat, that burnout, because I
think I said it in the, in thepre-show.
Like I didn't, or you know,before we started recording, I I
didn't apply burnout to myselfbecause, like I'm not one of
these workaholics, I'm not acontrol freak, I'm not a you
(17:20):
know somebody that you know,when I think of burnout, I think
it's I was trying to do less,you know like I said you had
said, well, if I fix thisproblem, then everything's going
to be good.
Margie (17:39):
And then something else would come up which sounds like
some kind of pastoral version ofwhack-a-mole that you can't get
ahead of.
Tanner (17:47):
Yeah, yeah, and that's I mean I think that's how I
justified it for as long as Idid was just that well, if I get
this solved, or maybe not eventhat, but just the reality of
being a senior leader in anorganization where, like, if I
don't do this and this, it's notarrogance, it's not pride, it's
(18:07):
just if I'm, if I don't do this, it's not going to get done.
Or if I don't, if I don'tintervene, things are going to
get worse.
You know having to step inbetween two grown adults arguing
at a board meeting, like I hadto put myself in the middle of
that.
Or you know conflicts in thechurch or people in positions
that they probably shouldn'thave been in.
(18:28):
You know it creates problems.
Margie (18:32):
It creates, you know, conflict and hurt and you're
saying and you're saying is thiswhat I went into ministry to do
?
Tanner (18:40):
Well, and, and I mean I, I cared about the people at the
church and one of the thingsthat I've learned over the years
is like, before pastoringfull-time, I was in logistics
management, like I, warehousingand transportation and that type
of thing, and so my initialinstincts to everything is
organizational right, and so Ithought when I went to full-time
(19:02):
pastoral ministry I needed tofocus more like individual,
relational.
But what I discovered throughexperience and maybe people have
other conclusions but I come tothe conclusion that, like so
much of the hurt and conflict inchurches right now isn't
because one bad person hurtanother person.
It's it's lack of clarity androles and responsibility.
(19:23):
It's a lack of understanding of, I mean, the number of times
that people said well, who saidthey could do that, or I was
doing that, or they stepped inmy territory, or they hurt my
feelings because they didsomething I was supposed to do
that dysfunction in organizationcreates hurt at a pace that
individual, you know, justhaving one mean person couldn't
(19:45):
handle.
And so that was my mentality islike if I can get the culture
healthy, the organizationhealthy, then these hurts will
go away.
But as we solve problems, as wemove through things I can't
remember who said it, but I waslistening to a podcast that
talked about church leadership,being a pastor, and that your
(20:06):
leadership staff and churchleaders need to be problem
solvers, like they should cometo you with solutions to
problems, and that what oftenhappens is you end up with a
bunch of church problemdeliverers.
And that was that was a culturethat I found myself in.
I had a large team which, onthe surface, feels like I should
be able to accomplish a lot,but it just meant there was more
(20:28):
people that had problems thatthey needed my input on, and so,
and you were the fixer of allthings.
Yeah, and I mean, and in mymost cynical moments I said they
just hired me to come and be anemployee for them.
Right, like, I'm not, I'm not apastor, I'm just the fixer.
And then it was just hard forme when I really started to
(20:50):
struggle to find space.
My kids went to the same schoolas some of the other staff, and
so I'd run into people in theparking lot that wanted to talk
about church-related issues.
You know, I'm in my you knowshorts and hooded sweatshirt,
not, you know, not even ready tostart the day yet.
And you know, and because theyknew I was going to be there,
(21:11):
they would come prepared to talkabout something.
Or my kids were at the daycarewhich our church ran, and so I'd
go pick up my kids at the endof the day.
And a spontaneous meetinghappened, because they knew that
at a certain point I would comeand pick up my kids and it just
, it just expounded like that,the feeling that I I there was
(21:33):
no place I could go, that I wasnot responsible for other
people's problems.
You know what I mean?
Margie (21:38):
Yeah, yeah, well, that's a and that's a heavy load.
Then At what point then did yousay to yourself, okay, there's
got to be some other way for meto live into my call, or?
Tanner (21:54):
yeah, yeah, I think I mean the real.
Like I said, when I ended up inthe er there was the wake-up
call if I got to do something.
But even after that it took mea while.
Actually it took my wife tokind of kick me in the butt a
little bit to get me to see acounselor and and with some
folks.
But the question was, what do Ido If you feel called to
(22:17):
ministry, you pastor a church,right, that's what you do.
And I just really wrestled withthe idea that I have to do all
these things and go through allthese barriers to share my faith
with people or to pray withpeople or to.
You know, I, when I worked inwarehousing, I had more honest
(22:40):
conversations with with peoplethat were on it, just because it
was just a faith conversation.
It wasn't about church financesor what color the I mean the
stereotypical carpetconversation like that was
happening at one of my churches,the you know pews or chairs, or
you know we put tables in thesanctuary for a sermon series
(23:01):
and and people.
It's not spiritual to havetables like all of that nonsense
.
I'm like I'm just trying toteach people about jesus and you
pray with people that that need.
So I just found myself reallystruggling to even do the basic
things I was supposed to bedoing.
And that's when, like, oh,that's it, this is burnout.
(23:22):
This is, this is what it is.
You know, my, my dog loved itbecause I was at home on the
couch all the time.
That that was her favoritething is when I was home on the.
You know I would, I could dosome work.
You know, so much of stuff isdone, you know, remotely now,
but it's just the productivitywasn't there, the drive wasn't
(23:43):
there.
When my phone would ring, Iwould avoid it.
You know, it was just that typeof thing where I was like not
only am I struggling with theidea of being a pastor, like I'm
not past right and so I'm likea pastor should at least want to
go to church on sunday, and Ididn't like you know.
I mean it was just that levelof and I felt bad because it was
(24:04):
like this congregation deservesa pastor that wants to pastor
them, and I wasn't living up towhat I felt like my
responsibilities were.
And there was a whole, a whole,a whole chain of things, but it
was just kind of this idea oflike, what if we went back home
and that wasn't even necessarilya sense of, of calling, it was
(24:24):
more along the lines of mywife's grandma passed away and I
wasn't able to be there.
You know, I'd known Darlene for, you know, 20 some years and
because of my churchresponsibilities I wasn't able
to be there.
You know, I'd known Darlene for, you know, 20 some years and
because of my churchresponsibilities I wasn't able.
I was actually doing a funeralfor somebody else that day and
there was just that sense oflike I'm taking care of other
(24:44):
people but I'm missing out onthe people that matter most.
I'm not able to be there forthem.
So that's where the draw, tocome back home, was I hadn't
been around.
You know, my mom was, was hadsome health issues and it's like
my kids don't know grandma thatwell.
I mean, they know her becauseshe comes and visits.
But it's just that was wherethat initial came from.
(25:04):
And as soon as, like, my wifeand I came to that decision,
like, yes, this is our next move.
Like it was, the weight cameoff.
I still had responsibilitiesthere, but it was like I'm no
longer holding myselfresponsible for the future of
this, this church, and andhonestly, I've, you know,
(25:26):
learned, learned a lesson alongthe way it's god's church, it's
not my church.
There's problems problemsbefore I got there.
There'll be problems after I'mthere, it seems kind of arrogant
to think that I could fixeverything.
But but it was once I startedthe the process of moving back
home that I felt this likestirring again and there was a
(25:48):
little bit of just this downtimewhere I didn't want to do
anything and I just needed rest.
But that didn't last as long asI thought it was going to.
Margie (25:56):
How long did it last?
Tanner (25:58):
A couple of weeks, and I mean part of that was job
transition and I transitioned toa job that I'm really enjoying,
so it was fulfilling, but itwasn't a heavy stress load Like
I got eased into this position.
My onboarding was super lowintensity, which I totally
appreciate, so I felt like I hada little bit of rest through
(26:20):
that.
But it wasn't like I said.
It wasn't long and the desireto write kicked in and so I've
been.
I've been, I've got a blog andhardly anybody reads it, but I
write because it's good for me.
But I've also been writingsermons, and not that I'm
preaching them, but I'm stillwriting.
There was just more.
And I've been talking with mywife about doing something like
(26:43):
a hybrid dinner small group typething in our hometown now and
some other ministry relatedthings, some other ministry
related things and like that, asas I stepped away from the
thing that was was dragging medown and got a little bit of
space, like clarity of callingkicked in, like I really started
to understand you know, thethings that I've been frustrated
with or struggling with overthe past few years.
(27:06):
I feel like God is saying well,let's not try and hit, let's not
try and tackle those thingsright now.
Let's, let's focus on what youfeel most passionate about and,
uh, let's maybe we don't have tohave all the details so like
this.
They said this this dinnerchurch type thing we're thinking
about.
You know, probably the mostfruitful ministry that I've had
in both churches that I was atwas we we'd started like a young
(27:29):
adults small group in our homeon Sunday evenings and we'd have
food and play games and talkand then just talk about the
sermon from the day, and thatwas like the most effective
discipleship that I'veparticipated in or that I've led
, but also the greatest sense ofcommunity that I've been a part
of.
And so it's like well, can wereplicate that like why do I
(27:53):
have to have the building andthe pews and the?
You know all?
of that like the carpet rightand the carpet and all that like
I want to focus on onrelational ministry and I want
to share faith with people thatare really interested in, that,
are searching for something, andso, like the, the image that
(28:16):
came to my mind was that the twodisciples walking away from
jerusalem after jesus iscrucified and they don't know
he's resurrected yet.
And they're walking on the roadand yeah, and so they're
discouraged, they think theplan's gone off the rails, like
their faith has let them downand they don't really know what
to do next.
So they're just going to gohome and like that's the image
(28:39):
of like my mission field now.
Like the church culture has hasis prevalent enough in society
that people have religiousexperiences one way or the other
, one way or the other.
But like in the town we're innow, you know there's been a
church split, church closing, achurch plant that tried to
launch and failed.
There's a lot of likeexperience with faith and
(29:01):
religion but a lot ofdisappointment, like I can see
people in that and so like let'sget some people together and
and share a meal.
Jesus showed up to thosedisciples when they broke bread,
so let's break bread and talkabout, see where Jesus is in all
this and I got so excited aboutthis that it was clarity of
(29:26):
calling and purpose.
But like I sat down and justmapped out, I'm a planner by
nature and I just mapped outlike the whole thing and it's
like I said I've been, I've beenwriting for the sermons for
this church that doesn't existyet.
You know, I'm taking a newapproach but, like it took me, I
had to have permission to tothink outside of the typical
(29:47):
structure, right Like, like Isaid, when you feel called to
ministry, you think you're goingto pastor a church.
And it took me a while to cometo the point where I was like no
, we can do something different.
I mean the missional churcheshouse churches, neighborhood
missional movements those typesof things really helped me grasp
that sense of we can do thingsa little differently.
Margie (30:07):
It hasn't always been the way that I've experienced it
always been the way that I'veexperienced it Sure, sure, and
this is in part why I feelcalled to do what I'm doing,
with nudging pastors towardsself-care and a slower pace so
that they can hear the daringcall of the Spirit and follow,
(30:30):
because I think the church todayis in a lot of transitions.
Transitions are hard and Ithink that you can't hear the
daring call of the spirit ifyou're running like a crazy
person on the hamster wheel.
You just can't, and I think inthis transitional time can't,
(30:51):
and I think in this transitionaltime, god is going to ask us to
do some new things, and so itmay not look like the
traditional.
I'm called and therefore thatmeans I am a pastor, but you
(31:15):
still can be pastoral inwhatever place that God plants
your feet, and it may just lookdifferent and that's kind of
exciting.
Tanner (31:19):
Yeah, and, and I think what you said right there and
why I appreciate you know yourpodcast and and and just the,
the growing conversation aboutself-care for pastors and I was
I was worthless to peoplebecause I did, you know, like
you know, I mean I rememberpastoral care and counseling
classes, the first in bothundergrad and in my graduate
(31:42):
classes.
Both times I took that coursethey talked about the.
You know, you're on an airplaneand it loses pressure.
The masks come down, put yourown on first, because you can't
help anybody if you've passedout Like I know that in my head,
but it just felt like I neverprioritizing self-care seems
(32:02):
selfish.
And so I appreciate theconversation because it, you
know you're bringing attentionto it and others bringing
attention to it and providingresources and even just talking
about it, making it seem likeit's a real thing.
Is it helped crack through mysense of what I thought about
self-care?
(32:22):
Right Like, and it wasn't.
I thought bad things aboutself-care.
I was just thought I didn'tneed it, right Like I'm, I'm
doing fine, until I wasn't.
Margie (32:31):
Right, right.
Well, that's and that's.
You know why?
And I I know I've shared myburnout stuff before on the
podcast and stuff and that's whyI feel very strongly about this
, because they will tell you inclass this is what you should be
doing and for some reason itjust goes by the wayside.
(32:52):
Or they think I just have topray more and read my Bible more
and I'll be fine.
And I'm not saying either ofthose things are not helpful or
good.
I'm just saying we are finitepeople.
It dawned on me one time, afriend of mine.
I was like why am I like this?
Why am I so upset?
Why am I this?
And she said I was like why amI like this?
(33:14):
Why am I so upset?
Why am I this?
And she said you know, it'sbecause you're human.
And I thought what a light bulbmoment.
Yeah, I'm human and I'm finiteand I'm like in scripture it
says I'm like the grass that'sgoing to wither someday and I
always want to think that I'm aperennial and I think I'm an
annual, though.
(33:34):
I mean it's that kind of thingthat we have going.
I don't know if I want toascribe pride to it, really,
because that seems a littleharsh, but I just think we get
so busy because in United Statesculture, busy is the thing.
If you're busy, you have to bebusy in order to be successful,
(33:56):
and what pastor doesn't want tobe successful in the spiritual
things like making disciples?
But then you get there and yourealize you're going to fuel
yourself through rest.
Tanner (34:19):
Yeah.
Margie (34:19):
You forget all that because the to-do list is so
blasted big.
Tanner (34:25):
Yeah, and you brought up pride, but for me, I think
initially it was insecurity.
You know pride, but I, for forme, I think initially it was it
was insecurity, like I, when Iwould do things for myself or
with my family, I felt like Ineeded to justify it.
Oh, because there were thingsthat needed attention, there was
people that needed help and youknow if I'm out, you know if
(34:47):
I'm out golfing or you knowdoing something else like I
almost feel like I have tojustify, had to justify that
because there was, there wasneeds that weren't being met
while I was doing that, and so Ithink it became insecurity,
like I had to.
And which is it's so sillybecause you know I, I know the
stories right, so you know theHebrews in captivity in in Egypt
(35:12):
and you know Moses comes, letmy people go, and all that, and
they go out into the wildernessand one of the first thing that
God tells them they have to dois keep a Sabbath.
You know, like this is socritically important.
This is going to befoundational to who you are and
how you live.
Keep a Sabbath Like this is onthe same level.
As you know, don't murder,don't have other gods Right,
(35:32):
live, keep a sabbath.
Like this is on the same levelas you know, don't murder, don't
have other gods right.
Like, keep a sabbath.
And somehow, when I think youpointed out you know american
culture like that's a sin,you're never going to get called
out on working too much.
I, I, I started keeping ajournal and a planner and I
write out my sabbath plan and I,wouldn't you know, started
keeping a journal and a plannerand I write out my sabbath plan
(35:53):
and I wouldn't, you know,sometimes I'd keep it, sometimes
I wouldn't.
But I think that's one of thethings that I noticed most.
That first week where I wasn'ta full-time pastor, that sunday
morning came along and and I wasrested and relaxed and I'm like
(36:14):
, oh, this is Sabbath.
And I'm like how do I hang onto this?
A friend of mine is like, well,you've discovered the weekend.
I'm like, yeah, there's thisthing called the weekend.
This is what God wants for allof us, on a weekly basis, to
(36:35):
enjoy life.
It's meant to be, you know, the, the biblical, the new
Testament imagery of the greatfeast, the great banquet.
Like we're invited to this andit's not our party, we're not
responsible for the catering orthe.
You know like he wants us toenjoy it.
Margie (36:50):
I forgot how you know what I mean he wants us to enjoy
it.
Tanner (36:53):
I forgot how.
You know what I mean.
I felt like I was a worker.
That was my job to.
Margie (36:58):
Worker be.
Tanner (36:59):
Yeah.
Margie (36:59):
So if you could give one word of wisdom, say to yourself
before you entered pastoralministry, what do you think you
might say?
Tanner (37:13):
Look for God, because there's a lot of things that are
in the life of a church butit's not necessarily.
I don't know.
Use the word spiritual lightly,but not necessarily like well,
I'll just say spiritual, it'snot a spiritual thing.
And so look for Jesus, look forthat and just lean into it and
(37:35):
let that be the priority.
And yeah, I think sometimesit's easy to get.
It was easy for me to getcaught up in all the things.
I think the message would bejust do this, be faithful to the
things god wants us to do.
You know, pray, read, restsabbath, you know it's.
(37:59):
Keep it simple, maybe that olddata it and let things, let the
spirit work out.
Everything else, you know, Idon't, I don't have any.
I mean I have some regrets, butlike I don't, if I could go
back in time, I time I wouldn'tdo it many things much different
, but I think that would be.
(38:19):
The key is trust, that beingfaithful is enough.
And yeah, you can't fixeverything.
Just be faithful in what you'recalled to do.
I like that.
Margie (38:32):
Yeah, I like that.
Tanner (38:33):
Yeah.
Margie (38:33):
I like that.
I like the simplicity of itbecause it feels like it gets
more complicated at some pointalong the way and that's not
quite so fun, because I think alot of pastors go into and are
called into ministry and theyhave ideas about what they're.
Ideas about what they're.
(38:54):
I think I could count on onehand the number of intense
spiritual conversations I hadwith congregants and it wasn't
because I wasn't available orwhatever.
It just wasn't happening therelike that.
And there's aspects of what weend up doing that it gets a
little disappointing, especiallywhen it draws us away from
where we felt God calling us tobe.
Tanner (39:17):
Yeah, and I read Eugene Peterson's memoir, the Pastor,
and as I was reading throughthat there were so many moments
of just like yes, this exactly.
And one of the things he talkedabout was his experience of
finishing seminary and going tohis first church and being just
(39:37):
utterly shocked at how littlethe church people cared about
the things of God.
He just assumed that that's whythey were part of the church,
that's why they're going to bethere, that's the focal point,
you know, and it was.
It was meetings and potlucksand you know, social events and
all.
And he's just like, well, whatabout the things of God?
And like that I could relate tothat experience.
(40:00):
Because he said I didn't gointo ministry because I wanted
attention.
Like public speaking was not myfavorite thing.
I didn't want to be up on theplatform.
I didn't want the spotlightthing.
I didn't want to be up on theplatform.
I didn't want the spotlight.
I just I honestly wanted tocare about people, the way that
I had received love and care andcompassion through the church
that I grew up in and I thoughtthere was a compelling story of
(40:23):
scripture and I thought peopleneeded to know it.
And yeah, it was just.
I think that's my greatestfrustration is is the church has
gathered people for a varietyof reasons, and sometimes Jesus
isn't really a part of it at all.
Margie (40:40):
And you almost feel bad saying that or seeing that.
Yeah, as I said, it's achallenging era to be a part of.
I've said for a while, hey, Ithink we're all Jeremiah be a
part of.
I've said for a while, hey, Ithink we're all Jeremiah.
As sad as that, you know,because you looked at Jeremiah
and I thought, man, his statsfor conversions aren't too good,
(41:01):
are they?
But yeah, it's a challengingera, but the real big thrill is
watching somebody recapture theessence of what God called you
to be and to be about.
And I really want to say Iappreciate so much your honesty
and your sincerity to come andshare on the Krabby Pastor
(41:25):
podcast.
One less Krabby Pastor, right.
Tanner (41:31):
Yep, yep, and I'm glad too, because I mean, you can
feel alone.
I think that's what's so greatabout what you're doing is
sharing stories like this.
You know you feel isolated, youfeel like nobody else is going
through this, or yeah, so Ithink it's great.
Margie (41:48):
Well, I appreciate that and blessings on you and your
ministry, whichever way it goes,with the dinner church and the
work that you do at OlivetNazarene.
And thank you so much forcoming on and sharing.
I appreciate that.
Tanner (42:02):
Yeah, it's been a good conversation, thanks.
Margie (42:06):
Are you wondering whether your fatigue, your lack
of motivation, your lack ofinterest is burnout maybe?
I just wanted to let you knowthat I have a resource on the
website, margiebricecom that'sB-R-Y-C-E MargieBricecom R Y C E
(42:33):
Margie Brycecom, and it is aburnout questionnaire, free for
you to download and kind of selfassess and get a sense of where
you're at.
There are questions that notonly ask about what you're going
through, but maybe how oftenyou're experiencing it and
that's that's kind of a key towhere you might be, because you
(42:54):
have to know where you are inorder to chart a course forward.
And most pastors who experiencepastors and ministry leaders
who experience burnout rarelyknow that that's where they're
at until they're well into it.
And if you're unsure about thatlittle statistic, so far,
(43:18):
everybody that I've interviewedon this podcast who has
experienced burnout, when Iasked that kind of question,
they're like, yeah, I didn'tknow, that's where I was at.
So again, go to margiebricecomit's on the homepage of the
website and you can get yourburnout questionnaire and kind
(43:40):
of see where you're at.
Hey friends, the Crabby Pastorpodcast is sponsored by Bryce
Art Glass and you can find thaton Facebook.
I make stained glass as part ofmy self-care, and also by Bryce
Coaching, where I coach ministryleaders and business leaders,
(44:04):
and so the funds that I generatefrom coaching and from making
stained glass is what issupporting this podcast and I
will have opportunities for youto be a part of sponsoring me
and, as always, you can do thebuy me a cup of coffee thing in
(44:25):
the in the show notes.
But I will have some other waysthat you can be a part of
getting the word out about theimportance of healthy self-care
for ministry leaders.
Hey, thanks for listening.
It is my deep desire andpassion to champion issues of
(44:49):
sustainability in ministry andfor your life, so I'm here to
help.
I stepped back from pastoralministry and I feel called to
help ministry leaders create andcultivate sustainability in
their lives so that they can gothe distance with God and
(45:11):
whatever plans that God has foryou.
I would love to help, I wouldconsider it an honor and, in all
things, make sure you connectto these sustainability
practices you know, so that youdon't become the crabby pastor.
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