July 3, 2024 • 49 mins
Have you ever found yourself so immersed in the demands of ministry leadership that your own spirit starts to fray at the edges?
In this episode, we're joined by the insightful Paul Kuzma, a pastoral counselor who has weathered the storm of burnout himself. Together, our conversation weaves personal narratives and practical wisdom into a tapestry of guidance for any ministry leader seeking harmony between their calling and personal well-being.
Join us as we explore the fullness of life beyond the pulpit – from cultivating friendships outside the congregation to embracing passions that rejuvenate the soul. We'll tackle the high-stakes stresses of pastoral duties and discuss how to strike that essential balance, setting the stage for a ministry that's not only vibrant but sustainable in the long run.
Whether you're a seasoned minister or just beginning to feel the weight of your calling, there's a message here for you. We're peeling back the layers on pastoral self-care and uncovering how taking a step back can propel you forward, ensuring that your ministry is a reflection of a well-tended heart and spirit.
Join us for an episode that promises to fortify your ministry and, perhaps, help you steer clear of becoming a Crabby Pastor.
This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.
Contact info:
Email me at crabbypastor@gmail.com with your input and ideas for burnout and leadership topics of interest or if you know someone who might be interesting to interview.
Visit my website:
YOUR LEADERSHIP COACH FOCUSED ON BURNOUT PREVENTION
Get your FREE Burnout Symptoms test to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE.
CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT SYMPTOMS TEST.
I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.
And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.
Blessings on your journey!
Margie
🦀 🦀 🦀
Find regular support on my Facebook group: Building Sustainability in Ministry Leaders: Beating Burnout.
Connect with me about
LEADERSHIP COACHING and Workshops...
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey there, margie Bryce here bringing you the
Krabby Pastor podcast, and Idon't think you're going to be
too surprised to know that it'stoo easy today to become the
Krabby Pastor.
Our time together will give youfood for thought to help you be
the ministry leader fullysurrender to God's purposes and
(00:24):
living into whatever it takes toget you there and keep you
there.
So we're talking aboutsustainability in ministry.
So how do the pieces of yourlife fit together?
Do they fit together well andthings are humming along just
fine, or are there some piecesthat are tight or absent or just
(00:51):
not fitting the bill?
This is your invitation to joinme in my glass workshop for a
video series, where I am goingto do a stained glass project
while I talk to you aboutsustainability and building
sustainability into your heartand into your life.
So I am going to be doing myart, which is a form of
(01:16):
self-care, and I'm going toinvite you into that space with
me and I'm going to chat.
I'm going to chat aboutself-care and I'm going to show
you how I create, and there's anifty, nifty analogy.
Stained glass seems to be avery good metaphor for what I
want to talk about, so I'd lovefor you to join me.
(01:40):
To do that, to opt in, I'llneed you to email me at
crabbypastor at gmailcom.
That's crabbypastor at gmailcom.
So you won't want to miss this.
You definitely won't want tomiss this.
So make a plan to join me inthe glass workshop.
(02:02):
Join me in the glass workshop.
This is Margie Bryce, again withthe Krabby Pastor podcast,
because we are wanting fewer andfewer pastors to be Krabby.
Even if you're just Krabby onthe inside, that counts too.
I'd like to think it doesn't,but you know, we're all trained
to do the non-anxious presencething right, to do the
(02:23):
non-anxious presence thing right.
So I'm committed to that, and Ihave with me Paul Kuzma, who is
going to share with us a backfrom burnout.
Not back to burnout, that wouldbe.
That's a whole differentepisode, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (02:37):
It is, there is.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Yeah, so another back from burnout episode.
So, paul, I'm going to ask youto introduce yourself.
Tell us what you're doing rightnow in ministry.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Yeah, margie, thanks so much for the privilege and
the honor of getting to connectwith you and your listeners and
to get to share some of my storyin hopes that it will help a
few.
So I am a in terms of what I do.
I am a four square pastor at mycore.
I started pastoring way back in1985, graduated from Bible
college in 1987, and ended up infull-time vocational ministry
(03:22):
at a fourare church in SimiValley, california, where I
spent eight years on staff as ayouth pastor, four years as
associate pastor before I becamethe senior pastor of that same
church, and in those first 12years that I was on staff I had
(03:44):
worked with the three previoussenior pastors.
All those transitions werepainful.
Before I ended up, we'll get ina little bit more of my burnout
story three and a half yearsafter I became senior pastor.
What I do today is I servefull-time as director and a
(04:05):
certified pastoral counselor atCenter for Spiritual Renewal
East, which is a retreat centerfor four-square pastors and
their families.
It's located in, of all places,christiansburg, virginia.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
I saw that and I thought well, isn't that
interesting.
Were you there before it wasnamed the town or no?
Speaker 2 (04:27):
no, Christiansburg was established way back in the
if I remember right sometime inthe late 1700s, and we're tucked
into the southwest corner ofthe Commonwealth of Virginia and
we're better known for our nextdoor neighbor, blacksburg,
which is the home of theVirginia Tech.
(04:49):
Hokies Go Hokies.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Oh, hokies, hokies, Hokies With a K.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
That's correct.
H-o-k-i-e -S.
So what's a Hokie?
You know that's so fun thatyou've just asked me that
question.
Margie, I'm going to give youthe official answer okay we
don't know oh that is the oh.
You can google it.
What is it?
(05:18):
What's a?
What's a virginia tech?
Speaker 1 (05:20):
I mean, I keep asking my husband what's a nittany
lion as opposed to a regularlion?
There you go, there you go.
So you're like what?
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Our mascot for the Virginia Tech Hokies is a turkey
, and the reason for that isbecause before the name Hokies,
they were called the VirginiaTech Gobblers.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
So the question is is that an improvement to hokey?
Speaker 2 (05:45):
I don't know so so we have a uh, an 80 plus acre
campus uh that for the the foursquare church denomination owns.
That is called.
The whole of it is calledcrosspoint Conference Center.
But on the campus is a set ofseven apartments in one build,
(06:07):
one of four apartment buildingsthat is dedicated as what I love
to call Foursquare's gift of afree time shared to our pastors
and their families.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Wow, I love it.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Up to a week a year of free lodging very nicely,
kind of plushed out apartmentthat a pastor or their family
members get fully to themselves.
They can come for anything froma study break to some Sabbath
rest to crisis managementthey're dealing with some kind
(06:39):
of crisis.
If they'd like counseling, I'mthe primary counselor on the
campus, serving in that rolefull-time.
A little part-time slice of mylife, margie.
I work with a guy by the nameof Pete Scazzaro.
Pete and his wife, jerryScazzaro, are the founders of a
ministry that today is calledEmotionally Healthy Discipleship
(06:59):
, and it really crosses wellwith my work with our four-spot
pastors.
Emotionally healthydiscipleship is based on the
premise that you can't separateyour emotional health from your
spiritual maturity.
Therefore, you can't bespiritually mature while
(07:20):
remaining emotionally immature,and that's got a lot of tie-in
to my own story.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Yeah sure, and it's scary.
It's scary to boot If you thinkabout society as a whole, or
that's very scary.
But I'm very excited to have youon as a member of the four
square denomination because I,as as this podcast, I want to
(07:48):
serve broadly, you know, pastorsof any denomination that is
willing to.
You know, it does take a bit ofhumility to say I've got issues
, I need to do better with selfcare, I need to do better with
self-care, I need to all of that.
So I'm excited about that.
So I want you to talk to us,though, about your ministry
(08:11):
context prior to burnout.
So you were a senior pastorthree and a half years in.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Yep At the same church that I had already served
.
By the time I hit burnout itwas a little over 15 years of
ministry at the same church and,like I mentioned a couple of
minutes ago, served my first 12years with the three previous
senior pastors.
All of those transitions werepainful for the pastor's family
(08:39):
and the church and when I becamethe senior pastor started to do
some history on the church, thechurch and when I became a
senior pastor, started to dosome history on the church.
I discovered it was actuallystarted in 1949.
I was the ninth pastor in thechurch's history and the church
had never known a positivepastoral transition that I could
trace.
(09:00):
And so, three and a half yearsin, I found myself in a season
of having given myself to aflurry of ministry activity, as
most pastors do, not knowingmuch about limits or boundaries
at the time, and found myself ina season barely able to get out
(09:20):
of bed many mornings crying atthe drop of a hat.
Able to get out of bed, manymornings crying at the drop of a
hat, getting angry about thingsthat I didn't generally or
historically get angry about andwondering what in the world I
was doing.
In the job I was in.
I had a pastoral counselor inmy life at the time.
(09:40):
I was not in any kind ofofficial therapy or counseling,
it was more of a mentor kind ofrelationship who sat me down and
said Paul, I think you're inburnout and I didn't get here
overnight, not getting outovernight and you need to look
at getting some help.
So that was kind of theministry context.
(10:04):
It was a season of a lot oflearning to grow out of that and
grow back from burnout.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
How long did it take your process?
So you were told by a mentor Ithink you're in burnout.
How long, then, did it take youto get back to some semblance
of, you know, normal?
I'm doing air quotes overnormal.
I think that's a setting on thedryer, but you know.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
Well, it's been well to 2020.
It was 23 years ago, right now,that I was in that season.
Right now that I was in thatseason, it was January, february
of 2001 that I hit that season.
And, margie, that's a hardquestion to answer.
(10:59):
I can't really put a number ofhow long it took me and in some
ways I still, when I share mystory, say I'm in recovery,
because the reality is that, atleast for me and a lot of
pastors that I work with thesedays who are navigating burnout,
what we realize is, once youget out of it, there's no
(11:19):
guarantee that you don'texperience some level of it
again, guarantee that you don'texperience some level of it
again.
So in some ways, I say that I'mstill in recovery and some of
the main issues that Idiscovered in counseling and
therapy in my initial recoveryseason, I'm still navigating and
managing those issues that ledme to burnout today that I ended
(11:43):
up discovering.
But if I can go back to myinitial recovery, I would say I
was in what I called a modifiedsabbatical for about six months,
and what I mean by modifiedsabbatical is I wasn't away from
the church the entirety of thattime but I was given freedom by
(12:05):
my church council and mydistrict supervisor to do what I
needed to do to find my wayback to health during that
season of time and I think evenbetter than the term normal is
the term new norm.
It took me about six months toget back to a place where I said
(12:26):
to my congregation I'm back,but it's going to look different
, and then it probably took meanother four or five years to
figure out what that differentreally was.
There's a lot of fine tuningthere.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
Sure, and how did it have to look different this time
?
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Yeah, so probably best by filling in that what
ended up happening was initially, when my mentor sat down with
me and I started talking aboutmy symptoms of very low energy,
strong fatigue, hardly gettingout of bed in the morning,
(13:07):
crying at the drop of a hat, theanger that I was experiencing
he was the one who said I thinkyou need some time off.
It had been a long timeProbably the most time I had
taken off all at once was maybea week and a half or two, which
didn't happen very often and sowe ended up arranging for me to
(13:30):
take a break for one month.
I felt like at the time that'sall the church could handle.
I had a pretty skewed view ofmy importance at the time, if I
could put it that way at thetime, if I could put it that way
, and so I took a month off.
I came back at the end of thatmonth.
(13:54):
It was an incredible time ofreconnecting with Jesus as a
person.
But I came back and encountereda couple situations where that
anger arose.
It became quickly apparent tome that one month wasn't enough.
But even when I took my onemonth break, I refused to call
it a sabbatical, because at ourchurch sabbaticals were things
(14:23):
that pastors didn't come backfrom.
Really, they were what I callreactive sabbaticals.
I think there's two kinds ofsabbaticals.
I've learned over the yearsreactive and proactive and in
around our denomination andaround the church I was at,
sabbaticals were things thatpastored.
They were disciplinary innature.
We have to put a pastor onsabbatical versus being
(14:44):
proactive and planning to engageseasons of sabbatical every
handful of years.
We just haven't had that kindof history in our denomination.
So when it became apparent thatthe one month wasn't enough, I
ended up working out an ideathat I called a modified
(15:04):
sabbatical, which again meantthat I wasn't preaching every
week, like I previously was, andI was free to make decisions
about my schedule on aday-to-day basis.
It allowed me to follow my body, see my doctor, so I started
getting a physical in place.
(15:27):
At the time I had high bloodpressure First time in my life
I'd faced that, started beingtreated for that, that started
being treated for that and thenalso began to see a therapist
for the first time.
A therapist's office is a placethat I'd never gone to for
(15:47):
myself, even though I toldhundreds of people over the
years to go there.
So it was in therapy that Istarted to be introduced to the
concept of family systems theoryand my family of origin had my
first therapist do a genogramwith me, discovered I had played
the role of savior in my familyof origin oh interesting and
(16:10):
ended up discovering how commonit is that we take the role that
we played in our family oforigin into the rest of our life
.
In our adult years and how Ihad become in my mind without
ever it almost subconsciouslywanting to be or thinking I was
called to be the savior for thiscongregation who had painful
(16:35):
pastoral history.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
Yeah yeah.
And you know, we're fixers,we're fixers, but except when it
comes to ourselves and we're ina situation or we're broken or
whatever.
I mean, I just did this.
I just did this again, you know, and I thought, you thought,
because I can easily say wow,pastors don't this and they
(16:59):
don't go for help and they don'treach out for coaching, they
don't reach out for what theyneed.
They're a tough audience tominister to.
And then I turned around andrealized I'm talking about
myself again, because I just didit again.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
I'm talking about myself again, because I just did
it again.
Yes, so that speaks to acritical lesson that I learned
with my initial therapist,margie.
I ended up initially spendingtwo weeks at a retreat center up
in Northern California with atherapist who was a former
pastor himself.
And during the course.
(17:36):
At the end of those two weeks,on the last day I was there, my
friend Russ said to me Paul, Ithink you're going to make it
long-term in ministry, but it'snot going to be without a lot
more pain and a lot more loss ofrelationship.
And I said, russ, thanks somuch, my brother, for those just
(17:58):
deeply encouraging partingwords.
And if I could do what you needto do with this in the
recording, margie, I looked athim and I said what the hell
does that mean, because I amshaking in my boots right now.
He said well, he said, Paul,we've talked about a lot of
things over these two weeks inyour life, in your approach to
(18:19):
ministry, that need to changefor you to last long term.
He said more pain means thatyou're going to go home and be
tempted to keep doing life andministry the way you've always
done, and it will be painful foryou to call yourself out and do
it differently.
He said more loss ofrelationship means that I'm
(18:44):
sending you home to acongregation that's only known
Pastor Paul one way for 15 years.
And when you start to do lifeand ministry differently, you're
going to have some people whoaren't going to like that and
that's probably going to lead tosome loss of relationship.
(19:04):
Well, this guy could not havebeen this former pastor now
serving as the therapist.
Could not have been moreprophetic, margie one of those.
it's become kind of a mantra ofmy story that I joke with a
little bit I'll often say overthe next four or five years we
(19:26):
learned how to grow a churchfrom about four or 500 people to
about 200 people.
And I'm not being facetiousabout the growth, the depth of
growth for the congregation.
We did not have one churchsplit.
We didn't have a Sunday wherelike half the people didn't show
up, but what we did have waskind of decision by decision or
(19:52):
conflict by conflict.
We'd have people that wouldmake decisions that Paul's not
doing life in ministry the sameway he's always done it.
One of the things that I beganto address in therapy was how
much of a conflict of order Iwas and how I didn't see
conflict as healthy or normal ornatural.
(20:16):
I saw it as you know.
Conflict means that there's aproblem.
So when I began to start totake a healthy view of conflict
and learn conflict management,that was different for people
that I actually began to addressconflict as it arose.
(20:37):
I'm not saying I did it allperfectly.
There were people that I heardthat I've had to return to and
reconcile with to the best of myability.
But I just began to do itdifferently, and it produced
results that you know weren'talways up and to the right, if I
(21:01):
can, put it that way.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
So what else did you do differently?
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Yeah.
So, Russ, my first couple ofdays there, asked me if I'd ever
read a book by John Townsendand Henry Cloud called
Boundaries.
And I said man, russ, that'ssuch a great book, I recommend
that book all the time.
And he said, okay, but have youever read the book?
I said, man, that's got somegreat chapters in it.
(21:29):
I've passed chapters in thatbook to people.
He said, paul, have you everread the book Boundaries?
I said nah, not really.
And that book becamefoundational for me, margie, to
(21:49):
begin to realize that boundariesare an important part of health
and self-care.
So, you know, I began to putboundaries in place around you
know some of my hours.
I began to learn about Sabbathand its importance and began to
(22:10):
institute and implement Sabbathpractice.
I began to recognize that acouple of the personal issues
that had led me into burnout hadto do with work addiction and
perfectionism and began toaddress those areas in my life A
very practical thing that Istarted to do.
(22:33):
Interestingly practical thingthat I started to do,
interestingly, that I've nowgone into counseling.
At the time I was doing a lotof counseling and began to
realize how much of a time andenergy drain it was.
And then at that season I wasnot the best counselor for
people.
So I began to refer people tocounseling instead of doing the
(22:54):
counseling myself, and that wasone boundary that I was working
with in a fresh and new way inmy life.
So those were some of thethings that I began to change
about how I was approaching lifeand ministry.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
And I'm curious too about you said workaholic and
and I think many pastors areencumbered with a productivity
mindset.
You know I can do that.
At the end of the day, you know, I look at was I productive
today?
Was this a productive day?
And I, you know, maybe therewere good things that were sown
(23:36):
into the day that will lead toother things in the future.
But the North American mindsettowards productivity is a little
and it's impacted ministry inthe church.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Yes, that's absolutely right.
The Western mindset ofproductivity.
I would add to that list offactors driving work addiction
and workaholism for pastors.
I would add to that the historyof the church growth movement
in.
America and maybe the filter ofproductivity that's been placed
(24:17):
over that that every healthychurch grows and that should be
in numbers as well.
Right, I think I actually havelearned for myself.
I've become more convinced thatthere's a place for a small
church in America.
I think another layer or factoron this issue of work addiction
(24:40):
is how in the world can I worktoo much for God?
I mean, if I just put in thework, he'll pick up the rest of
the pieces.
Right, he'll take care ofeverything else.
Right, He'll take care ofeverything else.
When we look at some of ourhistorical figures around
American Christianity and someof the popular evangelists,
(25:04):
pastors, ministers, you knowthey adopted the mindset I'd
rather burn out than rust out.
Hmm, some of those kinds ofthings were models for me.
So I think those were allfactors in the work addiction
(25:26):
piece as well.
My own family of origin,watching my mom and dad work and
work and work and work, put thenose to the grindstone those
were factors for my own workaddiction as well.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
So you did a lot of introspection, a lot of work on
your self-awareness.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Why you do the things , you do in the way that you do
them, and then decided to pullback on what wasn't healthy.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Yes, I started realizing that the best gift
that I can give to anybody elsein my life is a healthy me.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Absolutely, absolutely, because there's
people all around you yourfamily, your friends, the people
that you're called to lead inministry and those relationships
matter.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Right, right, the analogy of anytime anybody gets
on an airplane and you get thatsafety briefing.
An airplane and you get thatsafety briefing and if the
oxygen mask drops down, pleasemake sure you put your own
oxygen mask on before you put iton, before you help somebody
else.
I think that's so important forpastors, ministers, to pick up
(26:50):
that analogy that we can't helpothers if we can't help
ourselves.
Right, we can't care well forothers if we're not caring for
ourselves right, right, well, soyou talked a lot.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
That you're acquiring that level of self-awareness is
something that you chronicallyattend to.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Yes, it is.
So one of the things that meansfor me very practically is that
I still see my therapist tothis day, and I learned about 12
, 13 years ago when I went intoschool for counseling.
I wasn't aware that counselors,as you're going through school,
you're required to be intherapy yourself and I thought
(27:49):
how profound is that.
It's another level of self-care.
The propensity of pastors thatI work with who have an aversion
to therapy and counseling ispretty strong.
(28:11):
I've come to the place now,margie, where I tell pastors all
the time.
I've become convinced thatevery pastor needs a therapist.
As a matter of fact, just thatyou answered the call to
ministry tells me you need atherapist, Okay, well now I'm
(28:34):
going to have to ask you to saymore about that.
Yeah, so ministry is so complex.
I think it was.
If I have it right, I thinkI've heard that it was Peter
Drucker who quoted some kind ofresearch that had been done
maybe a couple decades ago thatdiscovered the pastoral ministry
(28:57):
, that pastoral ministry is oneof the most hazardous and
stressful occupations.
It was in the top three and Ithink every pastor needs some
running partners.
I don't think we can do thisalone.
(29:18):
We're not meant to do thisalone.
I think even scripturally,biblically, we're not meant to
do this alone.
We're meant to do this withother people.
But yet there's kind of amystique out there that the
pastor's got to be perfect.
The pastor has got to have ittogether, the family of the
pastor has to have it together,the reality is that we're all
(29:41):
humans.
One of my distant early mentorsin the work that I do now was a
guy by the name of ArchibaldHart, and he served out the bulk
of his career as the directorof the School of Psychology at
Fuller Theological Seminary inPasadena, did a lot of research
(30:02):
around pastors and a lot ofcounseling in this area, and he
used to say I heard him say tomultiple groups of pastors over
the years, Margie, pastors don'tget into trouble because they
forget that they're pastors.
Pastors get into trouble becausethey forget that they're
pastors.
Pastors get into troublebecause they forget that they're
people.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
We forget that we're human.
Sometimes I feel like youforget that you're finite.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
And that there are limits.
That's what I mean by that.
We have limits to what we cando.
Limits that's what I mean bythat.
We have limits to what we cando.
God is infinite, but we aredefinitely finite and we need to
then intentionally allocate ourtime, energy, attention,
(31:00):
resources accordingly and notburn the candle at both ends, as
they say, for burnout for sure.
So you did your counseling, youdid your sabbatical, which I
think it started out a revisedsabbatical, but then moved into
more of a sabbatical after that?
And what are some other thingsthat you did to address your
burnout, or did we pretty muchget them?
Speaker 2 (31:18):
Yeah, I would say.
I began to look at my yearevery year.
in the scope of rhythms.
What would the rhythm of myyear look like?
And I began to build in arhythm of rest and retreat.
Okay, so I started to take oneor two three to five day study
(31:42):
breaks each year where I wouldget out of town somewhere.
I called it a study break, forlack of a better term.
What it was was an ability toget out of town where the
pressure was.
I believe in that old Westernterm of getting out of Dodge.
I believe in that old Westernterm of getting out of Dodge,
Think about getting out of oureveryday, getting out of the
(32:03):
demands of home and givingyourself some freedom to follow
your body in terms of rest forthose days To work when you feel
you have the energy for work.
So there was study that tookplace within that break.
I would often plan out my nextfour to six months of sermon
(32:26):
themes.
Take a look at what thevacation calendar looks like for
our family over the nextseveral months.
I started to take vacationrather than minimize vacation.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Rather than getting the medal for not taking
vacation.
That's absolutely right.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
Instead of I developed a preaching team
format of ministry around ourchurch, which was another area
of contention at times for somepeople.
For those first few years Ialso again I mentioned a little
earlier I started to implementSabbath, a weekly Sabbath, to
(33:08):
take a look at what it lookedlike to unplug for those 24
hours to stop.
And then another practicalpoint I began when I picked up
Scazzaro's, his original book,the Emotionally Healthy Church
in 2003,.
I ended up just closelyfollowing that material.
It was early enough in what washappening around the Scazzaro's
(33:32):
at that time that I was able toget to know him a little bit
personally, started to ask himhow he was applying this concept
of emotionally healthdiscipling people in their
emotional health to ministrylife, and began to apply a lot
of those principles.
And over those years, um, youknow, as his notoriety grew a
(33:56):
little bit more, he asked if Iwould just take some phone calls
and emails from pastors thatare wondering the same things
that I was wondering and that Iwas actually applying.
And so today I serve asdirector of a small group of
volunteers, pastors who haveapplied and integrated what we
(34:18):
call the Emotionally HealthyDiscipleship Course into our
church's discipleship pathwaysand we talk with pastors around
the US and Canada about doingthat same thing, so that has
helped me as well.
It's another practical way thatI've just continued to engage
that in my own personal life theconcept of seeing my emotional
(34:41):
health as a point ofdiscipleship.
Sure sure, and it's separatedfrom my followership of Jesus.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Right, right, and you get to see Jesus do redemption
that's right Of a challengingsituation.
So here we are, a bit afterCOVID, I mean to the point where
I think the throngs atChristmas during this recent
(35:12):
Christmas season have returnedor close to returned, even
though numbers still are notwhere they were before.
But you know, and that's wheremy concern is, you know how hard
are pastors working to thinkingthat what they do is going to
get everybody to come back,whether that's an additional
(35:32):
burden that pastors are carryingright now.
But I would like to see whatyou would say are the top three
things that you might say toministry leaders today maybe,
who are wondering if they'redealing with burnout or just in
terms of their work-life balancemaybe.
(35:53):
So what are your top threepieces of advice that you would
offer to ministers?
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Yeah, that's a great question and I would say, margie
, that first and foremost wouldbe to really adopt a mindset
that who you are is moreimportant than what you do.
But what you do matters.
(36:23):
It matters for eternity, butwho you are matters more.
The best gift again that youcan bring to your congregation,
as you're leading and pastoringand shepherding people, is a
healthy you.
So whatever you can do toinvest in who you are and let
(36:44):
what you do flow from that well,your own relationship with
Jesus, your relationship withyour family, friends and
relationship with yourcongregation.
And then another mantra that Ipicked up in my relationship
(37:04):
with Pete Scazzaro wouldessentially say that the state
you are in is the state that yougive to others.
So if you're an anxious person,that will make you an anxious
pastor, and it's important torealize again that who you are
(37:27):
will inform what you do.
So invest in you number one,and I think you know.
I come back to the mantra Imentioned earlier.
I think every pastor needs atherapist earlier.
I think every pastor needs atherapist.
If it's a therapist, acounselor, life coach, different
seasons of your life andleadership might demand
(37:49):
different relationships.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
Take the spiritual director.
Don't do the journey alone iswhat I like to say.
You need to have other peoplewith you, and I know at one
point I had a spiritual directorand a coach.
I was leading a merger and Iwas thinking, man, I could mess
this up, and so I got the peopleto journey with me.
I mean, this is out of Proverbsthe counsel of many is wise.
(38:18):
Council of many is wise.
That's right, and so I thoughtwell, we're loading up, but it
is important not to journeyalone, because you get stuck
inside your own head, andsometimes that's not a great
place to be at all.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
Not.
The mantra I use, for that isyour head is a dangerous place,
don't ever go there alone.
The second thing I would say isthat it's so important to be
honest with yourself aboutstress and its impact and how
stressful ministry can be and is, and then figure out what works
(38:59):
for you to navigate and managethat stress and cope with that
stress in healthy ways.
I mentioned Arch Hart a littlebit ago.
He's written several books.
What I consider his cornerstonework of Arch's life is in a
book called the Hidden LinkBetween Adrenaline and Stress.
(39:20):
While he spent the final bulkof his career as a clinical
psychologist and dean of theSchool of Psychology out there
at Fuller, he started his careeras a scientist and then he
ended up mixing those twodisciplines and did some
research about the impact ofadrenaline to our stress
(39:40):
management.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
So that's the hidden of adrenaline to our stress
management.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
So that's the hidden link between adrenaline and
stress, the hidden link betweenadrenaline and stress.
It's an older book.
It's about 40, maybe a littleover 40 years old, but it's as
relevant today as it's ever been, and he wrote it for pastors.
So it's a great way to getacquainted with this concept of
adrenaline, this chemical thatGod created us with and has
(40:08):
great purpose of use, but isactually a chemical that we can
so addicted to our adrenalinethat we're pulling on it at will
.
We're calling it crisismanagement or we're calling it I
do my best work in the lastminute.
(40:29):
What that really means is thatyou like the adrenaline.
Arch was one of the earliestfolks that I heard talking to
pastors about the concept ofself-care and he would often say
Margie.
He would say, pastor, pleasedon't confuse your adrenaline
with the anointing on Sundaymorning.
(40:53):
So the impact of stress on yourphysical body.
I would say that that would bethe second piece of advice that
I would give to pastors that arerecognizing burnout and its
impact.
And then I would say you knowthe number three thing I think
would be found in a couple ofquestions.
(41:13):
One is what are you doing forfun in your life?
I know I tend to take myselfway too seriously.
So I have to really lean intohaving some fun in my life to
supplement stress and cope withstress in more healthy ways.
But then I would also ask thequestion for pastors.
(41:35):
I ask them regularly who areyour friends outside of ministry
, who are not projects?
that's a good question who'syour friend outside of your
church, outside of your ministry?
That's not the guy on thetreadmill next to you that you
(41:55):
carry a gym membership to leadpeople to Jesus.
Who's the friend in your life?
That's not somebody you'remeeting at the coffeehouse, you
know to disciple them on aweekly basis.
Who are your friends outside ofministry?
And I'll tell you, it's becomemore and more important over
(42:17):
time, especially given that oneof the most significant pieces
of research coming to thesurface over the last few years
is how lonely and isolatedministry can be.
Absolutely so when I'm askingpastors that question, Margie,
I'm regularly having pastorssaying I have no one, I do not
(42:39):
have friends.
The people that are in my lifeare there because I'm a pastor.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
And how well do pastors cope with attempting to
find friends who are notprojects, who are not part of
their church?
Speaker 2 (42:58):
Yeah, it has to come back to the idea of what you do
matters, but who you are mattersmore.
So I find that many, manypastors, before they can even
navigate into the practicalityof where do I find those friends
?
We have to wade through alittle bit of a marsh, maybe for
(43:21):
some pastors, a swamp of.
I am what I do, period, and Ifind my identity.
If I'm not pastoring, I don'tknow who I am.
One of my.
I've had three differenttherapists over the course of
(43:42):
the last couple of decades, plusOne of my early therapists.
I'll never forget how in onesession, he it felt like a slap
in the face, margie, when hesaid to me Paul, I can always
tell the health of your soulwhen you talk about doing
something other than strength.
Always tell the health of yoursoul when you talk about doing
(44:03):
something other than strength.
Felt like a slap in the facebecause when he said that I
realized oh my goodness.
I am talking about doingsomething other than God's call.
Oh my, is it okay to talk aboutthat?
And my therapist just told meit's okay to talk about, that,
it's actually healthy to talkabout.
(44:24):
If you weren't in pastoralministry, what would you do?
Speaker 1 (44:31):
Right Sell insurance.
Speaker 2 (44:32):
Right.
But so I think that's somethingthat carries us through, wading
through the marsh or the swampof who am I, apart from what I
do?
And that's just such animportant question to answer.
So before we, a lot of pastors,before they can ever figure out
, how do I find those friends?
(44:52):
We have to go through thejourney, and it is a journey, a
process, a journey oftransformation.
To get to the place ofrecognizing who I am is more
important than what I do.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
That is huge and I'm going to stop us on that note.
This is a good place to stop it.
You've just really given us alot of food for thought here as
we've talked, and I have afeeling at some point I'll be
tapping you on the shoulderagain to join us some more.
So I want to really reallythank you for being willing to
(45:32):
share your story and the thingsthat you learned along the way,
in the hopes of other peoplegrasping onto some of these
concepts and really thinkingthem through.
So thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
Absolutely so welcome .
Thank you for connecting andhaving me on.
Speaker 1 (45:53):
You're welcome.
Are you wondering whether yourfatigue, your lack of motivation
, your lack of interest isburnout Maybe?
I just wanted to let you knowthat I have a resource on the
(46:14):
website, margiebricecom.
That's B-R-Y-C-E,margiebricecom, that's B-R-Y-C-E
, margiebricecom, and it is aburnout questionnaire, free for
you to download, and kind ofself-assess and get a sense of
(46:34):
where you're at.
There are questions that notonly ask about what you're going
through but maybe how oftenyou're experiencing it, and
that's kind of a key to whereyou might be, because you have
to know where you are in orderto chart a course forward.
And most pastors who experiencepastors and ministry leaders
(46:54):
who experience burnout rarelyknow that that's where they're
at until they're well into it.
And if you're unsure about thatlittle statistic, so far,
everybody that I've interviewedon this podcast who has
experienced burnout, when I askthat kind of question, they're
(47:16):
like, yeah, I didn't know,that's where I was at.
So again, go to margiebricecom.
It's on the homepage of thewebsite and you can get your
burnout questionnaire and kindof see where you're at.
Hey friends, the Krabby Pastorpodcast is sponsored by Bryce
(47:39):
Art Glass and you can find thaton Facebook.
I make stained glass, that'spart of my self-care and also by
Bryce Coaching, where I coachministry leaders and business
leaders, and so the funds that Igenerate from coaching and from
(47:59):
making stained glass is what issupporting this podcast and I
will have opportunities for youto be a part of sponsoring me
and, as always, you can do thebuy me a cup of coffee thing in
the show notes.
But I will have some other waysthat you can be a part of
(48:21):
getting the word out about theimportance of healthy self-care
for ministry leaders.
Hey, thanks for listening.
It is my deep desire andpassion to champion issues of
sustainability in ministry andfor your life, so I'm here to
(48:45):
help.
I stepped back from pastoralministry and I feel called to
help ministry leaders create andcultivate sustainability in
their lives so that they can gothe distance with God and
whatever plans that God has foryou.
I would love to help, I wouldconsider it an honor, and, in
(49:09):
all things, make sure youconnect to these sustainability
practices you know, so that youdon't become the crabrabby
Pastor.
Hey there, margie Bryce here bringing you the
Krabby Pastor podcast, and Idon't think you're going to be
too surprised to know that it'stoo easy today to become the
Krabby Pastor.
Our time together will give youfood for thought to help you be
the ministry leader fullysurrender to God's purposes and
(00:24):
living into whatever it takes toget you there and keep you
there.
So we're talking aboutsustainability in ministry.
So how do the pieces of yourlife fit together?
Do they fit together well andthings are humming along just
fine, or are there some piecesthat are tight or absent or just
(00:51):
not fitting the bill?
This is your invitation to joinme in my glass workshop for a
video series, where I am goingto do a stained glass project
while I talk to you aboutsustainability and building
sustainability into your heartand into your life.
So I am going to be doing myart, which is a form of
(01:16):
self-care, and I'm going toinvite you into that space with
me and I'm going to chat.
I'm going to chat aboutself-care and I'm going to show
you how I create, and there's anifty, nifty analogy.
Stained glass seems to be avery good metaphor for what I
want to talk about, so I'd lovefor you to join me.
(01:40):
To do that, to opt in, I'llneed you to email me at
crabbypastor at gmailcom.
That's crabbypastor at gmailcom.
So you won't want to miss this.
You definitely won't want tomiss this.
So make a plan to join me inthe glass workshop.
(02:02):
Join me in the glass workshop.
This is Margie Bryce, again withthe Krabby Pastor podcast,
because we are wanting fewer andfewer pastors to be Krabby.
Even if you're just Krabby onthe inside, that counts too.
I'd like to think it doesn't,but you know, we're all trained
to do the non-anxious presencething right, to do the
(02:23):
non-anxious presence thing right.
So I'm committed to that, and Ihave with me Paul Kuzma, who is
going to share with us a backfrom burnout.
Not back to burnout, that wouldbe.
That's a whole differentepisode, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (02:37):
It is, there is.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Yeah, so another back from burnout episode.
So, paul, I'm going to ask youto introduce yourself.
Tell us what you're doing rightnow in ministry.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Yeah, margie, thanks so much for the privilege and
the honor of getting to connectwith you and your listeners and
to get to share some of my storyin hopes that it will help a
few.
So I am a in terms of what I do.
I am a four square pastor at mycore.
I started pastoring way back in1985, graduated from Bible
college in 1987, and ended up infull-time vocational ministry
(03:22):
at a fourare church in SimiValley, california, where I
spent eight years on staff as ayouth pastor, four years as
associate pastor before I becamethe senior pastor of that same
church, and in those first 12years that I was on staff I had
(03:44):
worked with the three previoussenior pastors.
All those transitions werepainful.
Before I ended up, we'll get ina little bit more of my burnout
story three and a half yearsafter I became senior pastor.
What I do today is I servefull-time as director and a
(04:05):
certified pastoral counselor atCenter for Spiritual Renewal
East, which is a retreat centerfor four-square pastors and
their families.
It's located in, of all places,christiansburg, virginia.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
I saw that and I thought well, isn't that
interesting.
Were you there before it wasnamed the town or no?
Speaker 2 (04:27):
no, Christiansburg was established way back in the
if I remember right sometime inthe late 1700s, and we're tucked
into the southwest corner ofthe Commonwealth of Virginia and
we're better known for our nextdoor neighbor, blacksburg,
which is the home of theVirginia Tech.
(04:49):
Hokies Go Hokies.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Oh, hokies, hokies, Hokies With a K.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
That's correct.
H-o-k-i-e -S.
So what's a Hokie?
You know that's so fun thatyou've just asked me that
question.
Margie, I'm going to give youthe official answer okay we
don't know oh that is the oh.
You can google it.
What is it?
(05:18):
What's a?
What's a virginia tech?
Speaker 1 (05:20):
I mean, I keep asking my husband what's a nittany
lion as opposed to a regularlion?
There you go, there you go.
So you're like what?
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Our mascot for the Virginia Tech Hokies is a turkey
, and the reason for that isbecause before the name Hokies,
they were called the VirginiaTech Gobblers.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
So the question is is that an improvement to hokey?
Speaker 2 (05:45):
I don't know so so we have a uh, an 80 plus acre
campus uh that for the the foursquare church denomination owns.
That is called.
The whole of it is calledcrosspoint Conference Center.
But on the campus is a set ofseven apartments in one build,
(06:07):
one of four apartment buildingsthat is dedicated as what I love
to call Foursquare's gift of afree time shared to our pastors
and their families.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Wow, I love it.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Up to a week a year of free lodging very nicely,
kind of plushed out apartmentthat a pastor or their family
members get fully to themselves.
They can come for anything froma study break to some Sabbath
rest to crisis managementthey're dealing with some kind
(06:39):
of crisis.
If they'd like counseling, I'mthe primary counselor on the
campus, serving in that rolefull-time.
A little part-time slice of mylife, margie.
I work with a guy by the nameof Pete Scazzaro.
Pete and his wife, jerryScazzaro, are the founders of a
ministry that today is calledEmotionally Healthy Discipleship
(06:59):
, and it really crosses wellwith my work with our four-spot
pastors.
Emotionally healthydiscipleship is based on the
premise that you can't separateyour emotional health from your
spiritual maturity.
Therefore, you can't bespiritually mature while
(07:20):
remaining emotionally immature,and that's got a lot of tie-in
to my own story.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Yeah sure, and it's scary.
It's scary to boot If you thinkabout society as a whole, or
that's very scary.
But I'm very excited to have youon as a member of the four
square denomination because I,as as this podcast, I want to
(07:48):
serve broadly, you know, pastorsof any denomination that is
willing to.
You know, it does take a bit ofhumility to say I've got issues
, I need to do better with selfcare, I need to do better with
self-care, I need to all of that.
So I'm excited about that.
So I want you to talk to us,though, about your ministry
(08:11):
context prior to burnout.
So you were a senior pastorthree and a half years in.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Yep At the same church that I had already served
.
By the time I hit burnout itwas a little over 15 years of
ministry at the same church and,like I mentioned a couple of
minutes ago, served my first 12years with the three previous
senior pastors.
All of those transitions werepainful for the pastor's family
(08:39):
and the church and when I becamethe senior pastor started to do
some history on the church, thechurch and when I became a
senior pastor, started to dosome history on the church.
I discovered it was actuallystarted in 1949.
I was the ninth pastor in thechurch's history and the church
had never known a positivepastoral transition that I could
trace.
(09:00):
And so, three and a half yearsin, I found myself in a season
of having given myself to aflurry of ministry activity, as
most pastors do, not knowingmuch about limits or boundaries
at the time, and found myself ina season barely able to get out
(09:20):
of bed many mornings crying atthe drop of a hat.
Able to get out of bed, manymornings crying at the drop of a
hat, getting angry about thingsthat I didn't generally or
historically get angry about andwondering what in the world I
was doing.
In the job I was in.
I had a pastoral counselor inmy life at the time.
(09:40):
I was not in any kind ofofficial therapy or counseling,
it was more of a mentor kind ofrelationship who sat me down and
said Paul, I think you're inburnout and I didn't get here
overnight, not getting outovernight and you need to look
at getting some help.
So that was kind of theministry context.
(10:04):
It was a season of a lot oflearning to grow out of that and
grow back from burnout.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
How long did it take your process?
So you were told by a mentor Ithink you're in burnout.
How long, then, did it take youto get back to some semblance
of, you know, normal?
I'm doing air quotes overnormal.
I think that's a setting on thedryer, but you know.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
Well, it's been well to 2020.
It was 23 years ago, right now,that I was in that season.
Right now that I was in thatseason, it was January, february
of 2001 that I hit that season.
And, margie, that's a hardquestion to answer.
(10:59):
I can't really put a number ofhow long it took me and in some
ways I still, when I share mystory, say I'm in recovery,
because the reality is that, atleast for me and a lot of
pastors that I work with thesedays who are navigating burnout,
what we realize is, once youget out of it, there's no
(11:19):
guarantee that you don'texperience some level of it
again, guarantee that you don'texperience some level of it
again.
So in some ways, I say that I'mstill in recovery and some of
the main issues that Idiscovered in counseling and
therapy in my initial recoveryseason, I'm still navigating and
managing those issues that ledme to burnout today that I ended
(11:43):
up discovering.
But if I can go back to myinitial recovery, I would say I
was in what I called a modifiedsabbatical for about six months,
and what I mean by modifiedsabbatical is I wasn't away from
the church the entirety of thattime but I was given freedom by
(12:05):
my church council and mydistrict supervisor to do what I
needed to do to find my wayback to health during that
season of time and I think evenbetter than the term normal is
the term new norm.
It took me about six months toget back to a place where I said
(12:26):
to my congregation I'm back,but it's going to look different
, and then it probably took meanother four or five years to
figure out what that differentreally was.
There's a lot of fine tuningthere.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
Sure, and how did it have to look different this time
?
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Yeah, so probably best by filling in that what
ended up happening was initially, when my mentor sat down with
me and I started talking aboutmy symptoms of very low energy,
strong fatigue, hardly gettingout of bed in the morning,
(13:07):
crying at the drop of a hat, theanger that I was experiencing
he was the one who said I thinkyou need some time off.
It had been a long timeProbably the most time I had
taken off all at once was maybea week and a half or two, which
didn't happen very often and sowe ended up arranging for me to
(13:30):
take a break for one month.
I felt like at the time that'sall the church could handle.
I had a pretty skewed view ofmy importance at the time, if I
could put it that way at thetime, if I could put it that way
, and so I took a month off.
I came back at the end of thatmonth.
(13:54):
It was an incredible time ofreconnecting with Jesus as a
person.
But I came back and encountereda couple situations where that
anger arose.
It became quickly apparent tome that one month wasn't enough.
But even when I took my onemonth break, I refused to call
it a sabbatical, because at ourchurch sabbaticals were things
(14:23):
that pastors didn't come backfrom.
Really, they were what I callreactive sabbaticals.
I think there's two kinds ofsabbaticals.
I've learned over the yearsreactive and proactive and in
around our denomination andaround the church I was at,
sabbaticals were things thatpastored.
They were disciplinary innature.
We have to put a pastor onsabbatical versus being
(14:44):
proactive and planning to engageseasons of sabbatical every
handful of years.
We just haven't had that kindof history in our denomination.
So when it became apparent thatthe one month wasn't enough, I
ended up working out an ideathat I called a modified
(15:04):
sabbatical, which again meantthat I wasn't preaching every
week, like I previously was, andI was free to make decisions
about my schedule on aday-to-day basis.
It allowed me to follow my body, see my doctor, so I started
getting a physical in place.
(15:27):
At the time I had high bloodpressure First time in my life
I'd faced that, started beingtreated for that, that started
being treated for that and thenalso began to see a therapist
for the first time.
A therapist's office is a placethat I'd never gone to for
(15:47):
myself, even though I toldhundreds of people over the
years to go there.
So it was in therapy that Istarted to be introduced to the
concept of family systems theoryand my family of origin had my
first therapist do a genogramwith me, discovered I had played
the role of savior in my familyof origin oh interesting and
(16:10):
ended up discovering how commonit is that we take the role that
we played in our family oforigin into the rest of our life
.
In our adult years and how Ihad become in my mind without
ever it almost subconsciouslywanting to be or thinking I was
called to be the savior for thiscongregation who had painful
(16:35):
pastoral history.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
Yeah yeah.
And you know, we're fixers,we're fixers, but except when it
comes to ourselves and we're ina situation or we're broken or
whatever.
I mean, I just did this.
I just did this again, you know, and I thought, you thought,
because I can easily say wow,pastors don't this and they
(16:59):
don't go for help and they don'treach out for coaching, they
don't reach out for what theyneed.
They're a tough audience tominister to.
And then I turned around andrealized I'm talking about
myself again, because I just didit again.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
I'm talking about myself again, because I just did
it again.
Yes, so that speaks to acritical lesson that I learned
with my initial therapist,margie.
I ended up initially spendingtwo weeks at a retreat center up
in Northern California with atherapist who was a former
pastor himself.
And during the course.
(17:36):
At the end of those two weeks,on the last day I was there, my
friend Russ said to me Paul, Ithink you're going to make it
long-term in ministry, but it'snot going to be without a lot
more pain and a lot more loss ofrelationship.
And I said, russ, thanks somuch, my brother, for those just
(17:58):
deeply encouraging partingwords.
And if I could do what you needto do with this in the
recording, margie, I looked athim and I said what the hell
does that mean, because I amshaking in my boots right now.
He said well, he said, Paul,we've talked about a lot of
things over these two weeks inyour life, in your approach to
(18:19):
ministry, that need to changefor you to last long term.
He said more pain means thatyou're going to go home and be
tempted to keep doing life andministry the way you've always
done, and it will be painful foryou to call yourself out and do
it differently.
He said more loss ofrelationship means that I'm
(18:44):
sending you home to acongregation that's only known
Pastor Paul one way for 15 years.
And when you start to do lifeand ministry differently, you're
going to have some people whoaren't going to like that and
that's probably going to lead tosome loss of relationship.
(19:04):
Well, this guy could not havebeen this former pastor now
serving as the therapist.
Could not have been moreprophetic, margie one of those.
it's become kind of a mantra ofmy story that I joke with a
little bit I'll often say overthe next four or five years we
(19:26):
learned how to grow a churchfrom about four or 500 people to
about 200 people.
And I'm not being facetiousabout the growth, the depth of
growth for the congregation.
We did not have one churchsplit.
We didn't have a Sunday wherelike half the people didn't show
up, but what we did have waskind of decision by decision or
(19:52):
conflict by conflict.
We'd have people that wouldmake decisions that Paul's not
doing life in ministry the sameway he's always done it.
One of the things that I beganto address in therapy was how
much of a conflict of order Iwas and how I didn't see
conflict as healthy or normal ornatural.
(20:16):
I saw it as you know.
Conflict means that there's aproblem.
So when I began to start totake a healthy view of conflict
and learn conflict management,that was different for people
that I actually began to addressconflict as it arose.
(20:37):
I'm not saying I did it allperfectly.
There were people that I heardthat I've had to return to and
reconcile with to the best of myability.
But I just began to do itdifferently, and it produced
results that you know weren'talways up and to the right, if I
(21:01):
can, put it that way.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
So what else did you do differently?
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Yeah.
So, Russ, my first couple ofdays there, asked me if I'd ever
read a book by John Townsendand Henry Cloud called
Boundaries.
And I said man, russ, that'ssuch a great book, I recommend
that book all the time.
And he said, okay, but have youever read the book?
I said, man, that's got somegreat chapters in it.
(21:29):
I've passed chapters in thatbook to people.
He said, paul, have you everread the book Boundaries?
I said nah, not really.
And that book becamefoundational for me, margie, to
(21:49):
begin to realize that boundariesare an important part of health
and self-care.
So, you know, I began to putboundaries in place around you
know some of my hours.
I began to learn about Sabbathand its importance and began to
(22:10):
institute and implement Sabbathpractice.
I began to recognize that acouple of the personal issues
that had led me into burnout hadto do with work addiction and
perfectionism and began toaddress those areas in my life A
very practical thing that Istarted to do.
(22:33):
Interestingly practical thingthat I started to do,
interestingly, that I've nowgone into counseling.
At the time I was doing a lotof counseling and began to
realize how much of a time andenergy drain it was.
And then at that season I wasnot the best counselor for
people.
So I began to refer people tocounseling instead of doing the
(22:54):
counseling myself, and that wasone boundary that I was working
with in a fresh and new way inmy life.
So those were some of thethings that I began to change
about how I was approaching lifeand ministry.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
And I'm curious too about you said workaholic and
and I think many pastors areencumbered with a productivity
mindset.
You know I can do that.
At the end of the day, you know, I look at was I productive
today?
Was this a productive day?
And I, you know, maybe therewere good things that were sown
(23:36):
into the day that will lead toother things in the future.
But the North American mindsettowards productivity is a little
and it's impacted ministry inthe church.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Yes, that's absolutely right.
The Western mindset ofproductivity.
I would add to that list offactors driving work addiction
and workaholism for pastors.
I would add to that the historyof the church growth movement
in.
America and maybe the filter ofproductivity that's been placed
(24:17):
over that that every healthychurch grows and that should be
in numbers as well.
Right, I think I actually havelearned for myself.
I've become more convinced thatthere's a place for a small
church in America.
I think another layer or factoron this issue of work addiction
(24:40):
is how in the world can I worktoo much for God?
I mean, if I just put in thework, he'll pick up the rest of
the pieces.
Right, he'll take care ofeverything else.
Right, He'll take care ofeverything else.
When we look at some of ourhistorical figures around
American Christianity and someof the popular evangelists,
(25:04):
pastors, ministers, you knowthey adopted the mindset I'd
rather burn out than rust out.
Hmm, some of those kinds ofthings were models for me.
So I think those were allfactors in the work addiction
(25:26):
piece as well.
My own family of origin,watching my mom and dad work and
work and work and work, put thenose to the grindstone those
were factors for my own workaddiction as well.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
So you did a lot of introspection, a lot of work on
your self-awareness.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Why you do the things , you do in the way that you do
them, and then decided to pullback on what wasn't healthy.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Yes, I started realizing that the best gift
that I can give to anybody elsein my life is a healthy me.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Absolutely, absolutely, because there's
people all around you yourfamily, your friends, the people
that you're called to lead inministry and those relationships
matter.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Right, right, the analogy of anytime anybody gets
on an airplane and you get thatsafety briefing.
An airplane and you get thatsafety briefing and if the
oxygen mask drops down, pleasemake sure you put your own
oxygen mask on before you put iton, before you help somebody
else.
I think that's so important forpastors, ministers, to pick up
(26:50):
that analogy that we can't helpothers if we can't help
ourselves.
Right, we can't care well forothers if we're not caring for
ourselves right, right, well, soyou talked a lot.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
That you're acquiring that level of self-awareness is
something that you chronicallyattend to.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Yes, it is.
So one of the things that meansfor me very practically is that
I still see my therapist tothis day, and I learned about 12
, 13 years ago when I went intoschool for counseling.
I wasn't aware that counselors,as you're going through school,
you're required to be intherapy yourself and I thought
(27:49):
how profound is that.
It's another level of self-care.
The propensity of pastors thatI work with who have an aversion
to therapy and counseling ispretty strong.
(28:11):
I've come to the place now,margie, where I tell pastors all
the time.
I've become convinced thatevery pastor needs a therapist.
As a matter of fact, just thatyou answered the call to
ministry tells me you need atherapist, Okay, well now I'm
(28:34):
going to have to ask you to saymore about that.
Yeah, so ministry is so complex.
I think it was.
If I have it right, I thinkI've heard that it was Peter
Drucker who quoted some kind ofresearch that had been done
maybe a couple decades ago thatdiscovered the pastoral ministry
(28:57):
, that pastoral ministry is oneof the most hazardous and
stressful occupations.
It was in the top three and Ithink every pastor needs some
running partners.
I don't think we can do thisalone.
(29:18):
We're not meant to do thisalone.
I think even scripturally,biblically, we're not meant to
do this alone.
We're meant to do this withother people.
But yet there's kind of amystique out there that the
pastor's got to be perfect.
The pastor has got to have ittogether, the family of the
pastor has to have it together,the reality is that we're all
(29:41):
humans.
One of my distant early mentorsin the work that I do now was a
guy by the name of ArchibaldHart, and he served out the bulk
of his career as the directorof the School of Psychology at
Fuller Theological Seminary inPasadena, did a lot of research
(30:02):
around pastors and a lot ofcounseling in this area, and he
used to say I heard him say tomultiple groups of pastors over
the years, Margie, pastors don'tget into trouble because they
forget that they're pastors.
Pastors get into trouble becausethey forget that they're
pastors.
Pastors get into troublebecause they forget that they're
people.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
We forget that we're human.
Sometimes I feel like youforget that you're finite.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
And that there are limits.
That's what I mean by that.
We have limits to what we cando.
Limits that's what I mean bythat.
We have limits to what we cando.
God is infinite, but we aredefinitely finite and we need to
then intentionally allocate ourtime, energy, attention,
(31:00):
resources accordingly and notburn the candle at both ends, as
they say, for burnout for sure.
So you did your counseling, youdid your sabbatical, which I
think it started out a revisedsabbatical, but then moved into
more of a sabbatical after that?
And what are some other thingsthat you did to address your
burnout, or did we pretty muchget them?
Speaker 2 (31:18):
Yeah, I would say.
I began to look at my yearevery year.
in the scope of rhythms.
What would the rhythm of myyear look like?
And I began to build in arhythm of rest and retreat.
Okay, so I started to take oneor two three to five day study
(31:42):
breaks each year where I wouldget out of town somewhere.
I called it a study break, forlack of a better term.
What it was was an ability toget out of town where the
pressure was.
I believe in that old Westernterm of getting out of Dodge.
I believe in that old Westernterm of getting out of Dodge,
Think about getting out of oureveryday, getting out of the
(32:03):
demands of home and givingyourself some freedom to follow
your body in terms of rest forthose days To work when you feel
you have the energy for work.
So there was study that tookplace within that break.
I would often plan out my nextfour to six months of sermon
(32:26):
themes.
Take a look at what thevacation calendar looks like for
our family over the nextseveral months.
I started to take vacationrather than minimize vacation.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Rather than getting the medal for not taking
vacation.
That's absolutely right.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
Instead of I developed a preaching team
format of ministry around ourchurch, which was another area
of contention at times for somepeople.
For those first few years Ialso again I mentioned a little
earlier I started to implementSabbath, a weekly Sabbath, to
(33:08):
take a look at what it lookedlike to unplug for those 24
hours to stop.
And then another practicalpoint I began when I picked up
Scazzaro's, his original book,the Emotionally Healthy Church
in 2003,.
I ended up just closelyfollowing that material.
It was early enough in what washappening around the Scazzaro's
(33:32):
at that time that I was able toget to know him a little bit
personally, started to ask himhow he was applying this concept
of emotionally healthdiscipling people in their
emotional health to ministrylife, and began to apply a lot
of those principles.
And over those years, um, youknow, as his notoriety grew a
(33:56):
little bit more, he asked if Iwould just take some phone calls
and emails from pastors thatare wondering the same things
that I was wondering and that Iwas actually applying.
And so today I serve asdirector of a small group of
volunteers, pastors who haveapplied and integrated what we
(34:18):
call the Emotionally HealthyDiscipleship Course into our
church's discipleship pathwaysand we talk with pastors around
the US and Canada about doingthat same thing, so that has
helped me as well.
It's another practical way thatI've just continued to engage
that in my own personal life theconcept of seeing my emotional
(34:41):
health as a point ofdiscipleship.
Sure sure, and it's separatedfrom my followership of Jesus.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Right, right, and you get to see Jesus do redemption
that's right Of a challengingsituation.
So here we are, a bit afterCOVID, I mean to the point where
I think the throngs atChristmas during this recent
(35:12):
Christmas season have returnedor close to returned, even
though numbers still are notwhere they were before.
But you know, and that's wheremy concern is, you know how hard
are pastors working to thinkingthat what they do is going to
get everybody to come back,whether that's an additional
(35:32):
burden that pastors are carryingright now.
But I would like to see whatyou would say are the top three
things that you might say toministry leaders today maybe,
who are wondering if they'redealing with burnout or just in
terms of their work-life balancemaybe.
(35:53):
So what are your top threepieces of advice that you would
offer to ministers?
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Yeah, that's a great question and I would say, margie
, that first and foremost wouldbe to really adopt a mindset
that who you are is moreimportant than what you do.
But what you do matters.
(36:23):
It matters for eternity, butwho you are matters more.
The best gift again that youcan bring to your congregation,
as you're leading and pastoringand shepherding people, is a
healthy you.
So whatever you can do toinvest in who you are and let
(36:44):
what you do flow from that well,your own relationship with
Jesus, your relationship withyour family, friends and
relationship with yourcongregation.
And then another mantra that Ipicked up in my relationship
(37:04):
with Pete Scazzaro wouldessentially say that the state
you are in is the state that yougive to others.
So if you're an anxious person,that will make you an anxious
pastor, and it's important torealize again that who you are
(37:27):
will inform what you do.
So invest in you number one,and I think you know.
I come back to the mantra Imentioned earlier.
I think every pastor needs atherapist earlier.
I think every pastor needs atherapist.
If it's a therapist, acounselor, life coach, different
seasons of your life andleadership might demand
(37:49):
different relationships.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
Take the spiritual director.
Don't do the journey alone iswhat I like to say.
You need to have other peoplewith you, and I know at one
point I had a spiritual directorand a coach.
I was leading a merger and Iwas thinking, man, I could mess
this up, and so I got the peopleto journey with me.
I mean, this is out of Proverbsthe counsel of many is wise.
(38:18):
Council of many is wise.
That's right, and so I thoughtwell, we're loading up, but it
is important not to journeyalone, because you get stuck
inside your own head, andsometimes that's not a great
place to be at all.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
Not.
The mantra I use, for that isyour head is a dangerous place,
don't ever go there alone.
The second thing I would say isthat it's so important to be
honest with yourself aboutstress and its impact and how
stressful ministry can be and is, and then figure out what works
(38:59):
for you to navigate and managethat stress and cope with that
stress in healthy ways.
I mentioned Arch Hart a littlebit ago.
He's written several books.
What I consider his cornerstonework of Arch's life is in a
book called the Hidden LinkBetween Adrenaline and Stress.
(39:20):
While he spent the final bulkof his career as a clinical
psychologist and dean of theSchool of Psychology out there
at Fuller, he started his careeras a scientist and then he
ended up mixing those twodisciplines and did some
research about the impact ofadrenaline to our stress
(39:40):
management.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
So that's the hidden of adrenaline to our stress
management.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
So that's the hidden link between adrenaline and
stress, the hidden link betweenadrenaline and stress.
It's an older book.
It's about 40, maybe a littleover 40 years old, but it's as
relevant today as it's ever been, and he wrote it for pastors.
So it's a great way to getacquainted with this concept of
adrenaline, this chemical thatGod created us with and has
(40:08):
great purpose of use, but isactually a chemical that we can
so addicted to our adrenalinethat we're pulling on it at will
.
We're calling it crisismanagement or we're calling it I
do my best work in the lastminute.
(40:29):
What that really means is thatyou like the adrenaline.
Arch was one of the earliestfolks that I heard talking to
pastors about the concept ofself-care and he would often say
Margie.
He would say, pastor, pleasedon't confuse your adrenaline
with the anointing on Sundaymorning.
(40:53):
So the impact of stress on yourphysical body.
I would say that that would bethe second piece of advice that
I would give to pastors that arerecognizing burnout and its
impact.
And then I would say you knowthe number three thing I think
would be found in a couple ofquestions.
(41:13):
One is what are you doing forfun in your life?
I know I tend to take myselfway too seriously.
So I have to really lean intohaving some fun in my life to
supplement stress and cope withstress in more healthy ways.
But then I would also ask thequestion for pastors.
(41:35):
I ask them regularly who areyour friends outside of ministry
, who are not projects?
that's a good question who'syour friend outside of your
church, outside of your ministry?
That's not the guy on thetreadmill next to you that you
(41:55):
carry a gym membership to leadpeople to Jesus.
Who's the friend in your life?
That's not somebody you'remeeting at the coffeehouse, you
know to disciple them on aweekly basis.
Who are your friends outside ofministry?
And I'll tell you, it's becomemore and more important over
(42:17):
time, especially given that oneof the most significant pieces
of research coming to thesurface over the last few years
is how lonely and isolatedministry can be.
Absolutely so when I'm askingpastors that question, Margie,
I'm regularly having pastorssaying I have no one, I do not
(42:39):
have friends.
The people that are in my lifeare there because I'm a pastor.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
And how well do pastors cope with attempting to
find friends who are notprojects, who are not part of
their church?
Speaker 2 (42:58):
Yeah, it has to come back to the idea of what you do
matters, but who you are mattersmore.
So I find that many, manypastors, before they can even
navigate into the practicalityof where do I find those friends
?
We have to wade through alittle bit of a marsh, maybe for
(43:21):
some pastors, a swamp of.
I am what I do, period, and Ifind my identity.
If I'm not pastoring, I don'tknow who I am.
One of my.
I've had three differenttherapists over the course of
(43:42):
the last couple of decades, plusOne of my early therapists.
I'll never forget how in onesession, he it felt like a slap
in the face, margie, when hesaid to me Paul, I can always
tell the health of your soulwhen you talk about doing
something other than strength.
Always tell the health of yoursoul when you talk about doing
(44:03):
something other than strength.
Felt like a slap in the facebecause when he said that I
realized oh my goodness.
I am talking about doingsomething other than God's call.
Oh my, is it okay to talk aboutthat?
And my therapist just told meit's okay to talk about, that,
it's actually healthy to talkabout.
(44:24):
If you weren't in pastoralministry, what would you do?
Speaker 1 (44:31):
Right Sell insurance.
Speaker 2 (44:32):
Right.
But so I think that's somethingthat carries us through, wading
through the marsh or the swampof who am I, apart from what I
do?
And that's just such animportant question to answer.
So before we, a lot of pastors,before they can ever figure out
, how do I find those friends?
(44:52):
We have to go through thejourney, and it is a journey, a
process, a journey oftransformation.
To get to the place ofrecognizing who I am is more
important than what I do.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
That is huge and I'm going to stop us on that note.
This is a good place to stop it.
You've just really given us alot of food for thought here as
we've talked, and I have afeeling at some point I'll be
tapping you on the shoulderagain to join us some more.
So I want to really reallythank you for being willing to
(45:32):
share your story and the thingsthat you learned along the way,
in the hopes of other peoplegrasping onto some of these
concepts and really thinkingthem through.
So thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
Absolutely so welcome .
Thank you for connecting andhaving me on.
Speaker 1 (45:53):
You're welcome.
Are you wondering whether yourfatigue, your lack of motivation
, your lack of interest isburnout Maybe?
I just wanted to let you knowthat I have a resource on the
(46:14):
website, margiebricecom.
That's B-R-Y-C-E,margiebricecom, that's B-R-Y-C-E
, margiebricecom, and it is aburnout questionnaire, free for
you to download, and kind ofself-assess and get a sense of
(46:34):
where you're at.
There are questions that notonly ask about what you're going
through but maybe how oftenyou're experiencing it, and
that's kind of a key to whereyou might be, because you have
to know where you are in orderto chart a course forward.
And most pastors who experiencepastors and ministry leaders
(46:54):
who experience burnout rarelyknow that that's where they're
at until they're well into it.
And if you're unsure about thatlittle statistic, so far,
everybody that I've interviewedon this podcast who has
experienced burnout, when I askthat kind of question, they're
(47:16):
like, yeah, I didn't know,that's where I was at.
So again, go to margiebricecom.
It's on the homepage of thewebsite and you can get your
burnout questionnaire and kindof see where you're at.
Hey friends, the Krabby Pastorpodcast is sponsored by Bryce
(47:39):
Art Glass and you can find thaton Facebook.
I make stained glass, that'spart of my self-care and also by
Bryce Coaching, where I coachministry leaders and business
leaders, and so the funds that Igenerate from coaching and from
(47:59):
making stained glass is what issupporting this podcast and I
will have opportunities for youto be a part of sponsoring me
and, as always, you can do thebuy me a cup of coffee thing in
the show notes.
But I will have some other waysthat you can be a part of
(48:21):
getting the word out about theimportance of healthy self-care
for ministry leaders.
Hey, thanks for listening.
It is my deep desire andpassion to champion issues of
sustainability in ministry andfor your life, so I'm here to
(48:45):
help.
I stepped back from pastoralministry and I feel called to
help ministry leaders create andcultivate sustainability in
their lives so that they can gothe distance with God and
whatever plans that God has foryou.
I would love to help, I wouldconsider it an honor, and, in
(49:09):
all things, make sure youconnect to these sustainability
practices you know, so that youdon't become the crabrabby
Pastor.
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