August 7, 2024 • 36 mins
Find out how to navigate the complexities of ministry while staying true to your calling with insights from Beth Caulfield, author of "People Throw Rocks at Things that Shine." In this episode, we unpack the inevitable messiness and unexpected hardships that come with following one's spiritual path. Beth provides wisdom on how to remain steadfast, emphasizing that God uses every experience, even the tough ones, to fulfill His greater plan. Drawing inspiration from the Apostle Paul, we discuss the importance of maintaining a close relationship with God and keeping our eyes on Jesus to stay resilient and fruitful in ministry.
Discover practical tools and heartfelt advice on balancing self-care with spiritual duties. Reflecting on moments of divine encouragement, we highlight the significance of finding personal spiritual disciplines, fostering supportive spiritual communities, and integrating self-care practices to avoid burnout. We also embrace the reality of our "crabby" moments, providing strategies to manage them effectively and sustain a healthy spiritual life. Tune in for an episode brimming with encouragement, practical tips, and spiritual nourishment aimed at helping you thrive in your ministry journey.
Discover practical tools and heartfelt advice on balancing self-care with spiritual duties. Reflecting on moments of divine encouragement, we highlight the significance of finding personal spiritual disciplines, fostering supportive spiritual communities, and integrating self-care practices to avoid burnout. We also embrace the reality of our "crabby" moments, providing strategies to manage them effectively and sustain a healthy spiritual life. Tune in for an episode brimming with encouragement, practical tips, and spiritual nourishment aimed at helping you thrive in your ministry journey.
This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.
Contact info:
Email me at crabbypastor@gmail.com with your input and ideas for burnout and leadership topics of interest or if you know someone who might be interesting to interview.
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Blessings on your journey!
Margie
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Margie (00:01):
Hey there, Margie Bryce here bringing you the Crabby
Pastor podcast, and I don'tthink you're going to be too
surprised to know that it's tooeasy today to become the Crabby
Pastor.
Our time together will give youfood for thought to help you be
the ministry leader fullysurrendered to God's purposes
(00:24):
and living into whatever ittakes to get you there and keep
you there.
So we're talking aboutsustainability in ministry.
I read a book recently by BethCaulfield and it's called People
(00:44):
Throw Rocks at Things thatShine, which the title alone
grabbed me.
And as I was reading throughthe book, one thing in
particular, the big picturething that really touched me was
what happens when our call getsa little messy.
Happens when our call gets alittle messy.
(01:08):
I don't know if any of you havehad the opportunity to have your
call get messy.
I know of a couple who had thisgorgeous trajectory totally
upward and I'm sure the angelsare singing in the background of
their call.
That's not my experience.
I don't think that's theexperience of many, many pastors
.
So this podcast I am going tointerview Beth Caulfield.
(01:30):
This podcast is dedicated toall y'all out there that whose
calls just have been a littlemessy.
Things that you can lean into,lean on, do and all of that so
that you don't become, you know,the crabby pastor.
(01:51):
So, beth, you are going to kindof start us off.
I think with some of your thisis like a three-point sermon,
almost, isn't it?
But I'll let you talk someabout our call and who we are as
we follow Jesus.
Beth (02:11):
Well, thank you, Margie, and the first thing I want to
say is I really appreciate youhaving me on and giving me the
opportunity to talk about thisvery subject, because it's my
hope that, as part of myministry including with the book
is to help people recognizethat, yeah, it's just like
everything that Jesus said itwould be.
(02:33):
It's not going to be easy, butif we keep our eyes on him and
not on the waves and all that hehas taught us in relationship
with him, then we can getthrough it, and I love that
you're doing this kind ofpodcast, because it is clearly
about helping us who are in thethick of it Remember that Jesus
(02:57):
is teaching us what to do.
So you know.
You referenced the title of mybook, which just is exactly what
you're talking about, with thefact that when we are out in
ministry, we should not besurprised when the rocks come,
and sometimes the rocks comefrom places that we expect, and
(03:20):
sometimes it's usually the onesthat hit the hardest are the
ones we don't expect, and it allcan be a faith building
experience if we remember thatwe knew that this was going to
be part of the road and part ofthe remembering that it's the
road is remembering that ourcall is real.
(03:42):
Never doubt it.
That our call is real, neverdoubt it, never sway from when
things get tough, feeling thatperhaps you heard it wrong or
that you made it up or it's over, because all of us have the
ministry of believers, whetherit's ordained ministry or
(04:03):
missionaries or whatever role itis in the local church.
We're all called, and theexcitement and the abundant life
I know you agree, Margie, onthis is that we have the
opportunity to walk it out, andso you know.
The first thing that I wouldremind people is exactly that
(04:23):
Don't doubt your call, and thatcall is to bear fruit and you
are gifted and you will bearfruit.
And it may look different thanwhat you thought, but the
reality is you've got a lightDon't hide it under a bushel and
it's unique and God has a planfor it.
(04:43):
And my calling has wound upbeing one of really looking at
some things within the churchstructure itself, which was not
what I was expecting at all,been different, in that I
thought I would be focused onyour ministry out in the local
(05:07):
church, serving with folks onday-to-day ministry, and it's
been that, but some of the rocksthat I experienced in that
process were helping me workthrough some of my bigger
calling.
So my point in saying that andI can get into more depth on
that if you want, margie, but ifnot, that's okay but my point
(05:30):
in saying that is God is usingeven those rocks and sometimes
you're the right person toeither get hit with them or
caught, or catch them becauseyou're the one who's going to
help get rid of them.
Margie (05:44):
And do you?
Am I remembering correctly thatyou had some kind of HR
background?
Beth (05:49):
Yes, that is correct, yeah .
Margie (05:51):
Yeah, and so that that is some of the gifting that is
being used.
It's always interesting,especially for those of us that
were you know, second career, asthey say, that were you know,
second career, as they say, thatGod does not waste a thing.
You know, I always was amazedthat the Apostle Paul was
exactly the right kind of personand with his background, with
(06:14):
his Jewish aristocracy, if youwant to call it that, and then
at the same time he had a Greekbackground that he was exactly
the right person to bring thegospel to the non-Jewish folk at
the time.
So God still does that kind ofthing and he does it in each and
(06:36):
every one of our lives, and Iknow we talked previously before
the interview about how it isindeed a spiritual battle, and I
always think back to Moses andwhen he's leading the people out
of bondage.
And it wasn't very long beforethey were saying, for heaven's
sakes, why are we following thiscrazy guy out here, when we had
(07:00):
three square meals a day backin Egypt and you're like, come
on.
I mean those kinds of thingsfor any leader are just plain
old challenges, but we have toremember that our battle is not
against flesh and blood, eventhough you know there might be
somebody you want to punch inthe nose metaphorically,
(07:21):
metaphorically not really sotalk some about how you see the
spiritual aspect of this Sure.
Beth (07:32):
So the key on it is knowing the Lord and keeping
your relationship close with him, and in doing that, obviously,
you practice your spiritualdisciplines, and one of the ones
that most often gets neglected,when we get on the run and we
start getting upset, is we tendto run into the cave, like
(07:57):
Elijah, and think that we arealone and start operating like
we are alone.
And probably the most importantthing that I could say on this
is to remember that you are notalone and that when things get
difficult, as you're trying towalk through your calling, that
(08:18):
you are not going to persevereif you do not reach out to the
resources that the Lord hasgiven you through other people.
You know Elijah didn't rememberthat there were others out
there with the sameunderstanding of the evil that
was going on in the time thatthey were living in.
(08:40):
And you know reaching out andhaving conversations with others
and hearing other people say,no, you're not crazy.
And in my case, no, you're notcrazy or a failure.
There is a problem, there'ssomething going wrong in our
system that needs to get fixedand let's work together for ways
(09:02):
to improve it.
And if there weren't peoplearound me at times.
Then I made efforts to go outand find them.
That's good advice.
You know, often we can just saywell, you know I'm alone, and a
lot of you know, let's face it,a lot of pastors, we tend to be
(09:25):
introverted, and there'snothing wrong with being
introverted, except for when itgets in the way of us being able
to reach and connect with theLord, and sometimes that
connection is as we stand therein the pulpit and say every week
has to do with working withother people.
So, for instance, as part of mystory as a pastor in the United
(09:47):
Methodist Church in greater NewJersey, when I started
recognizing that there were someissues within the system and
that I felt I was differentwhether that be in the way I
looked at the ordination process, the way I looked at doing
ministry, the way my theologywas, whatever it was as I
started recognizing that therewas something different about me
(10:10):
, I prayed and the Lord startedshowing me.
You're not the only one, and inmy case, this was in 2016,.
There was another group ofpeople who were coming together,
who were asking a lot of thesame questions, and we had a
meeting out in Chicago.
(10:30):
This was the Wesleyan CovenantAssociation.
Right, we had a meeting, andthere I saw other people that I
had affinities with, who werehaving some of the same
questions and so forth, and sothat was helpful and bolstering
for me that I wasn't alone.
There was a time when I was ata conference with a female
(10:53):
pastor that I hardly knew, butwe bonded and I let her in on
some of the challenges I washaving and she was the one who
recognized Beth.
There's a spiritual dimensionto what's happening here and
that's funny for people to hearthat this would be a revelation
to pastors.
(11:14):
But sometimes when you're inyour own world dealing with
difficulties, you don't see thebigger picture, and the bigger
picture always involves thatspiritual piece.
Bigger picture, and the biggerpicture always involves that
spiritual piece.
So having this person say, yeah, you are facing some
persecution and let's attackthis from a spiritual place was
(11:34):
helpful.
Margie (11:36):
Right, and I think I think too.
You know everybody deals withsomething in the hall.
You know, frequently women,clergy, deal with something
related to that.
But let me tell you as well,the guys, there's always
something, I think there'salways something that is our
(11:58):
thorn in the flesh as wecontinue to walk it out.
And the deal, the gig, is to befaithful and obedient on a
day-by-day basis.
But you've identified somethingyou know don't walk alone for
sure.
And this is a prize of theWesleyan heritage that we have,
(12:21):
where this was a key facet.
Beth (12:24):
Yes.
How things developed, go ahead,yeah and yeah and that's I would
say that as important asfinding someone that you can
unload on or whatever, isfinding someone or people that
are going to provide you with agodly counsel and accountability
.
Those are key words in ourWesleyan heritage as well, and
(12:50):
I'm a strong proponent ofWesleyan bands, or, if you call
it, an accountability group orsmall group at this point, but
finding people that you can becomfortable with and develop
relationship with to hold oneanother accountable.
You know I can say that duringsome of the difficult times that
I went through, god put it onmy heart to start a band, and it
(13:15):
was challenging because I'mlike well, who am I going to
have a band with?
There's no one like in my wholestate that agrees with me, but
what God did was help me findprayer partners, actually who I
could be close with, who are allover the country, and for over
two years we have met togethervia Zoom every Monday morning at
(13:39):
eight o'clock.
I have a friend, kim Reisman,who's head of the World
Evangelism Program.
She is part of that.
She's in Indiana.
I have a friend who's a pastordown in Florida, a layperson who
is a leader in the GlobalMethodist Church out in Oklahoma
(14:00):
, and another friend who's adeacon out in Pittsburgh in the
United Methodist Church.
We get together and we hold oneanother up and I cannot tell
you how helpful that has been.
I also would say that, reachingout to others who are beyond
your circle, within yourdenomination, or even that close
(14:24):
of Wesleyanism, I have goodaccountability partners who are
assembly of gods, nazarenesAgain, that's the Wesleyan
heritage.
But again, the point is we canget ourselves caught up in.
No one understands because noone's like me and everyone's got
that when in fact we should belooking for people and I, you
(14:47):
know, I'd even say spiritualmentors versus institutional
ones, and and we can get into awhole thing with that our, our
important family perspectivealways counts.
You know, you know, we, wealways wrestle as pastors with
how much to bring your family in, how much not to bring them in.
(15:07):
Well, do bring them in some,because they help keep you
grounded.
And at the same time, you know,there are wonderful spiritual
directors, coaches, andtherapists.
I mean, there are a lot ofpeople to help you not go it
(15:31):
alone.
Margie (15:33):
So that's the key there, right, and I always think of
that Elijah passage and whenI've preached on it I always say
I realize off of the pages ofscripture there's no intonation,
but I always read that prettywhiny that Elijah says and I'm
(15:53):
the only one left, and I'm theone here that cares about this,
that I'm the only, and it's veryeasy for us to get locked into
that and we need to be veryintentional.
I was just at Palcon atTrevecca Nazarene University and
I took a workshop and they weretalking about spiritual friends
(16:15):
and doing exactly what you weretalking about Once a week
getting together and, if nothingelse, it just gives you more
brains to work with other thanjust your own head, because your
own brain sometimes can get alittle bit nearsighted and out
of focus and definitely losesight of the very, very big
(16:38):
picture.
I think you also mentionedsomething about an app, or am I
making that up?
Beth (16:44):
Yeah, no, there are apps to help you stay within the
framework of a Wesleyan band andall of a sudden, I'm forgetting
the name of ours here.
Margie (16:56):
Okay, Well, we'll put it back in.
If it pops back in, just pauseeverything and we'll insert that
, or we'll insert it in the shownotes, that's not a problem.
Also, I think we talked aboutpaying attention to when God
sends people to help you.
(17:16):
If somebody just all of asudden appears on the scene and
you don't know what to make ofthat really, instead of just
considering the coincidence orjust something happenstance,
it's not really significantreally tuning into the spirit
and saying, oh my, god sees, godknows and God cares.
(17:42):
And I was at another conferenceand I'm standing by my you know
crabby pastor table and thatkind of thing, and a woman came
up to me.
This was when I was with theFree Methodists in Michigan
recently and a woman came up tome and just said this is just so
needed.
And I appreciate that kind ofencouragement, I really do,
(18:05):
keeps me wanting to keep on,keeping on, you know, with it.
But she all of a sudden put herarm around me and just started
praying for my ministry and Iwas so grateful for that.
I really was.
But after she left and as I'mpacking up for the day, I just
reflected back on that andthought and as I'm packing up
(18:26):
for the day, I just reflectedback on that and thought, yep,
god sees, god knows and God doescare.
So it's always amazing whenthose moments arrive and
(18:47):
somebody has skin on and they'vebeen sent by Jesus just to say
you know good job, or keepmoving, or something or anything
that is going to be meaningfulto you and encourage you Amen.
So we are left, then, with oneother aspect that we talked
about, and that is one of myfavorite topics self-care.
So I think you talked aboutministry being a marathon and
not a sprint.
Beth (19:07):
Yes, yes, I'm going to pause here because I remember
the name of that app.
So a great app to help you witha Wesleyan band is something
called Discipleship Bands andit's put out by Seedbed and it
just offers some support aroundthe basic questions that go into
a Wesleyan covenant group.
(19:29):
You know, the first question isalways how is it with your soul
for the group to wrestle with?
And then what are yourstruggles and successes?
And then how might the spiritand scriptures be speaking in
your life?
If you just use those threequestions, you will have robust
conversation.
But the band app that I'mtalking about also offers other
(19:52):
resources and other questions tohelp keep you going.
So I'd recommend that, andanybody can start a band.
Margie (20:00):
I know it sounds funny.
Anybody can start a band and Iautomatically my head goes back
to the 70s, being in the garageand people getting the drums.
You play the guitar.
Beth (20:19):
Not that kind of band, but anybody can start a Wesleyan
band for sure.
And the other thing is often,as pastors, we're good at
helping encourage our laity toget involved in bands, and then
we have this question of whetherto get involved with them or
not, and then, if we may, wantthat kind of accountability with
other pastors but it can beawkward, you know, letting your
hair down or finding the rightpeople and so forth but what I
(20:42):
could say is when, when I prayedabout it and reached out, every
person I reached out to waslike oh, that's wonderful.
I've been wanting to dosomething like this with someone
, so don't let your owninsecurities keep you from doing
it.
It's such a blessing,absolutely, absolutely.
So you were asking me aboutself-care and knowing yourself
(21:05):
and the importance of that, andyou're right.
That is such a key when therocks come.
And, as I had shared with you, Iknow that I am by nature, a
sprinter and not a marathoner,and yet ministry is a marathon,
and what I mean by that is I amsomeone who just gets full of
(21:26):
energy for whatever it is thatI'm working on and I just go, go
, go, and I can just go untilthere's no energy anymore and
then I'm completely depleted.
And what I would say is thatmight be okay if that's who you
are, if that's who you'recreated to be.
(21:47):
Now, sometimes that's just amatter of discipline, right, and
you need to be a little morecognizant.
What I would say is know whatworks for you.
So, for instance, I know that Iget a lot of energy and just go
, go, go, but that means I can'tdo it for a long time and I
have to take more frequentbreaks and I have to have long
(22:10):
rests when I do that, versussomeone who may do a lower,
steadier energy level throughout, may be able to go a little
longer without a Sabbath orwithout.
I know that when we're talkingrealistically in ministry, all
of us struggle with Sabbath.
And when we're legalistic aboutit and say, hey, it's got to
(22:33):
happen exactly this time everyweek and you got to do this,
that's just one more pressurethat makes it difficult for
people.
And what I would say is no, youneed to know yourself and what
the Lord's calling of you on it,and, whatever it is, don't
neglect it.
You know, for me, self-care hasalways been exercise and
(22:59):
vacations.
It's also included taking leaveof absence.
It has been taking specialministry trips to just be
ministered to.
I, you know, I refer in my bookto some time that I spent in
Korea.
I went over there both to doministry and for some rest and
(23:20):
relaxation, but it was also atime for me to be ministered to
and it was just so important.
And I know that I need tocontinue my spiritual
disciplines but not becomeslaves to them for the sake of
the discipline themselves.
(23:40):
And that's you know.
And again, Margie, I'm going toanother level here.
I'm trying to very much soreinforce that spiritual
disciplines are important, butrecognizing that having that
close relationship with the Lordwill make them as fruitful as
possible.
And it's the relationship withthe Lord that's the most
(24:01):
important part about it.
And so I would say, you know,don't beat yourself up over
spiritual disciplines, but findthe balance in your life that
the Lord has put there in theway he made you personally and
you specially.
We all need balance andmoderation and I really think
that that's you know.
Someday that's going to beanother book that I write is
(24:25):
just that importance of thatbalance and moderation for each
of us and figuring out where itfits within the theological
framework that we've been, giventhat this is probably, and
(24:49):
especially now, as we're stillin or coming out of or wherever
we are in these pandemic times,that is such a critical issue.
I just see so many, inparticular pastors, who are
crying out on social media andelsewhere by repeatedly, you
know, just posting theirconcerns or posting concerning
(25:11):
things about their lives thatyou know.
It's time for us to do a gutcheck and say, you know, maybe I
need a break, and I don't thatdoesn't mean walking away from
your calling at all, but whatdoes that break look like?
Margie (25:31):
So, yes, that's really important and I like that you
bring out that balance piece ofnot making your spiritual
disciplines legalistic, you know, or any of that.
Like Sabbath Okay, all right, Iblew it.
I didn't start at 7am thismorning for my exact 24 hours of
(25:54):
you know, and I can get caughtin something like that very
easily and then I feel like Imessed up and then I tag into
and that makes me less thanperfect and then I say, oh, just
nevermind, you know that wholespiral, yeah, just nevermind.
So you know, sometimes I findwhat I need to do is extend some
(26:15):
grace to my own self.
Yes, yes, that way.
And just, you know, I am alittle bit more sprinter ish in
nature.
I can take off, you know, likea shot, and then if I don't pace
myself, I can easily just go gocrash and burn, and that's what
(26:39):
we want to have happen.
So I don't know if that sayssomething better about those who
are a little bit more marathonoriented, but I liked what you
said about knowing which one youare.
Beth (26:50):
Yeah, I mean, and I you know, and I've had that question
myself before Well, would it bebetter if I retrained to be a
marathoner?
And then what I have realizedis, no, if I slow my pace I
don't have fun.
That's not who I am.
That doesn't mean there aren'ttimes that you need to restrain
(27:14):
yourself.
That's not.
You know again.
But in general, when I havepassion and energy towards
something, I have so much andthe adrenaline is there and it
can last for weeks, months,years, right or not, but I
recognize it, I recognize theHoly Spirit in it which fuels it
(27:35):
more.
But if I'm going to payattention to that, I also need
to pay attention to when theHoly Spirit says now, whoa slow
it down back off Right.
Margie (27:46):
And then and then, as you get older and older and I
read this book about cause Iride a bicycle, I cycle, and and
I read about recovery.
It was somebody I'd talked towho does?
I mean, she has high endcycling.
I'm not.
I'm like 11 and a half milesper hour average.
I'm not anybody who's going tobe 20 anything ever, probably.
(28:07):
And she said, oh, you can workinto it.
And I'm thinking, yeah, maybe Idon't want to, but but she said
one thing once you get over acertain age, that you need to
take recovery time.
So no longer do I ride two daysin a row, yep.
And so you apply something likethat to your self-care and
(28:29):
spirituality and you know, asyou get a little older, you
really better do that.
I have a series coming up nextthat's going to have some people
on that have come back fromburnout and they're more than 25
, let's just say more than 35.
And they have some wisdom toshare with us in that regard as
(28:52):
well, in terms of self-care.
So, are there any?
Okay, I have now learned thatfrom one interview I did.
At the end of it, I said, isthere anything you want to add?
And they said to me yeah, younever asked me what makes me
crabby.
I laughed about that and then Ithought I guess I didn't ask
(29:13):
that.
So this is your moment If youwould like to share with us and
and I will give you this caveatthat at a couple of the
conferences that I've been atlately I usually have had one
person saunter by and just kindof smile at me and go I'm never
crabby, and I want to say that,okay, you go find your spouse
(29:36):
and bring them over here andwe'll have this discussion again
.
Whether it is overtly crabby oryou know, within your heart and
spirit is there anything thatyou would like to share with us
that makes you crabby, and maybewhat you do about that?
Beth (29:53):
Yeah, well, you know the maybe this is a boring answer,
but I have to just circle backto what we were just talking
about.
I think I'm crabby when I startletting myself spiral into
questioning my call andquestioning my gifts, when I
start isolating myself and whenI neglect self-care.
(30:19):
And when I neglect self-careand I think those three things
really, I mean when I'm actingout being crabby, when I look at
it, at least one of those isbeing jeopardized and it's a
decision that I have made to doit and not to beat myself up or
(30:39):
anyone else for doing that.
But it's a good self-checklistto look back and say, okay, why
am I so crabby?
Well, maybe it's because Ihaven't taken a break in a long
time.
Maybe it's because I'm justsitting here wallowing in
self-pity and not talking toanybody.
I need to get it out right.
Or maybe it's because I'mstarting to believe those voices
(31:02):
in the head that are sayingyou're not accomplishing
anything.
That's what's important.
You're failing because youweren't called to do any of this
mess to begin with.
So doing those things.
Two other brief things that I'llmention is don't be afraid to
change.
Don't be afraid to changedirection, because God does that
(31:27):
sometimes too.
I always thought that mycalling was to be an ordained
pastor in the United MethodistChurch.
I spent eight years in thatprocess and my book is about
that.
Right, I never became that.
I am, however, an ordainedelder in the Global Methodist
Church right now, and I am doingother things as well.
(31:52):
But that took a realization thatGod had a different plan with
what I was supposed to be doing.
And, of course, the book talksa lot more about why that is.
But my point is sometimes thecalling.
The calling's always there, butyou don't know where it's going
to lead you.
And don't be afraid to takeeither the path less traveled
(32:16):
right, I got to talk in theseshapes but the path less
traveled or the take the aboutface fork in the road.
Do recognize, as Paul did, thatthe spirit wasn't leading him
there.
Right To go somewhere else.
And related to that is don't beafraid to shake the dust off
your feet, Right.
Margie (32:38):
Oswald Chambers says this and he says are you
attached to your ideas about Godor are you attached to God?
And I can add to that and sayare you following your ideas
about what God has for you orare you following Jesus?
You following Jesus.
(33:04):
And that's a hefty, hefty push.
I know I served in pastoralministry for 15 years and I
don't know that if somebodywould have told me what I would
be doing today, that my ministrywould be to ministry leaders, I
would have, you know, thoughts.
That's crazy.
And the bigger, bigger pictureis that the church is in a
transition.
The Big C church is in atransition right now,
post-pandemic, and you're goingto have people who are daring to
(33:28):
follow the call of the Spiritto develop ministries from
within traditional settings thatare new, or they might run
parallel to a traditional churchsetting.
Or there might be some who areindependent and a little more
entrepreneurial.
Or there might be some who, youknow, I'm going to have a used
(33:50):
car lot and I'm going to do itwith this level of integrity and
open and honest trading anddealings with people.
I'm going to do my ministry andmy life and my work and my
practice in such a way thatpeople are going to say hey what
is?
up with that person.
(34:10):
They definitely don't do thestatus quo thing.
Their ministry, their coffeeshop, their I've got friends
doing farming, kind of you know,let me raise really healthy
food for you.
I've got I know people doingall this kind of thing, and so
the question is are we keepingin step with the spirit in this
(34:32):
very, very unique era?
So I want to thank you, beth,for coming on the Krabby Pastor
podcast.
I wonder if people are thinking,if I go on there, does that
mean I'm Crabby?
I don't know, does it?
I think we all are.
This is the honest thing.
I hope not, and I liked whatyou said because that was a good
(34:52):
, healthy ownership of the factthat we all can be Crabby.
We're crabby on the outside orjust crabby on the inside, and
you know Jesus knows.
So thanks again, and I will putthe resources that Beth has
mentioned in the show notes.
Thank you so much for beinghere today.
(35:14):
Hey, thanks for listening.
It is my deep desire andpassion to champion issues of
sustainability in their lives sothat they can go the distance
(35:44):
with God and whatever plans thatGod has for you.
I would love to help, I wouldconsider it an honor and, in all
things, make sure you connectto these sustainability
practices you know, so that youdon't become the Crabby Pastor.
Hey there, Margie Bryce here bringing you the Crabby
Pastor podcast, and I don'tthink you're going to be too
surprised to know that it's tooeasy today to become the Crabby
Pastor.
Our time together will give youfood for thought to help you be
the ministry leader fullysurrendered to God's purposes
(00:24):
and living into whatever ittakes to get you there and keep
you there.
So we're talking aboutsustainability in ministry.
I read a book recently by BethCaulfield and it's called People
(00:44):
Throw Rocks at Things thatShine, which the title alone
grabbed me.
And as I was reading throughthe book, one thing in
particular, the big picturething that really touched me was
what happens when our call getsa little messy.
Happens when our call gets alittle messy.
(01:08):
I don't know if any of you havehad the opportunity to have your
call get messy.
I know of a couple who had thisgorgeous trajectory totally
upward and I'm sure the angelsare singing in the background of
their call.
That's not my experience.
I don't think that's theexperience of many, many pastors
.
So this podcast I am going tointerview Beth Caulfield.
(01:30):
This podcast is dedicated toall y'all out there that whose
calls just have been a littlemessy.
Things that you can lean into,lean on, do and all of that so
that you don't become, you know,the crabby pastor.
(01:51):
So, beth, you are going to kindof start us off.
I think with some of your thisis like a three-point sermon,
almost, isn't it?
But I'll let you talk someabout our call and who we are as
we follow Jesus.
Beth (02:11):
Well, thank you, Margie, and the first thing I want to
say is I really appreciate youhaving me on and giving me the
opportunity to talk about thisvery subject, because it's my
hope that, as part of myministry including with the book
is to help people recognizethat, yeah, it's just like
everything that Jesus said itwould be.
(02:33):
It's not going to be easy, butif we keep our eyes on him and
not on the waves and all that hehas taught us in relationship
with him, then we can getthrough it, and I love that
you're doing this kind ofpodcast, because it is clearly
about helping us who are in thethick of it Remember that Jesus
(02:57):
is teaching us what to do.
So you know.
You referenced the title of mybook, which just is exactly what
you're talking about, with thefact that when we are out in
ministry, we should not besurprised when the rocks come,
and sometimes the rocks comefrom places that we expect, and
(03:20):
sometimes it's usually the onesthat hit the hardest are the
ones we don't expect, and it allcan be a faith building
experience if we remember thatwe knew that this was going to
be part of the road and part ofthe remembering that it's the
road is remembering that ourcall is real.
(03:42):
Never doubt it.
That our call is real, neverdoubt it, never sway from when
things get tough, feeling thatperhaps you heard it wrong or
that you made it up or it's over, because all of us have the
ministry of believers, whetherit's ordained ministry or
(04:03):
missionaries or whatever role itis in the local church.
We're all called, and theexcitement and the abundant life
I know you agree, Margie, onthis is that we have the
opportunity to walk it out, andso you know.
The first thing that I wouldremind people is exactly that
(04:23):
Don't doubt your call, and thatcall is to bear fruit and you
are gifted and you will bearfruit.
And it may look different thanwhat you thought, but the
reality is you've got a lightDon't hide it under a bushel and
it's unique and God has a planfor it.
(04:43):
And my calling has wound upbeing one of really looking at
some things within the churchstructure itself, which was not
what I was expecting at all,been different, in that I
thought I would be focused onyour ministry out in the local
(05:07):
church, serving with folks onday-to-day ministry, and it's
been that, but some of the rocksthat I experienced in that
process were helping me workthrough some of my bigger
calling.
So my point in saying that andI can get into more depth on
that if you want, margie, but ifnot, that's okay but my point
(05:30):
in saying that is God is usingeven those rocks and sometimes
you're the right person toeither get hit with them or
caught, or catch them becauseyou're the one who's going to
help get rid of them.
Margie (05:44):
And do you?
Am I remembering correctly thatyou had some kind of HR
background?
Beth (05:49):
Yes, that is correct, yeah .
Margie (05:51):
Yeah, and so that that is some of the gifting that is
being used.
It's always interesting,especially for those of us that
were you know, second career, asthey say, that were you know,
second career, as they say, thatGod does not waste a thing.
You know, I always was amazedthat the Apostle Paul was
exactly the right kind of personand with his background, with
(06:14):
his Jewish aristocracy, if youwant to call it that, and then
at the same time he had a Greekbackground that he was exactly
the right person to bring thegospel to the non-Jewish folk at
the time.
So God still does that kind ofthing and he does it in each and
(06:36):
every one of our lives, and Iknow we talked previously before
the interview about how it isindeed a spiritual battle, and I
always think back to Moses andwhen he's leading the people out
of bondage.
And it wasn't very long beforethey were saying, for heaven's
sakes, why are we following thiscrazy guy out here, when we had
(07:00):
three square meals a day backin Egypt and you're like, come
on.
I mean those kinds of thingsfor any leader are just plain
old challenges, but we have toremember that our battle is not
against flesh and blood, eventhough you know there might be
somebody you want to punch inthe nose metaphorically,
(07:21):
metaphorically not really sotalk some about how you see the
spiritual aspect of this Sure.
Beth (07:32):
So the key on it is knowing the Lord and keeping
your relationship close with him, and in doing that, obviously,
you practice your spiritualdisciplines, and one of the ones
that most often gets neglected,when we get on the run and we
start getting upset, is we tendto run into the cave, like
(07:57):
Elijah, and think that we arealone and start operating like
we are alone.
And probably the most importantthing that I could say on this
is to remember that you are notalone and that when things get
difficult, as you're trying towalk through your calling, that
(08:18):
you are not going to persevereif you do not reach out to the
resources that the Lord hasgiven you through other people.
You know Elijah didn't rememberthat there were others out
there with the sameunderstanding of the evil that
was going on in the time thatthey were living in.
(08:40):
And you know reaching out andhaving conversations with others
and hearing other people say,no, you're not crazy.
And in my case, no, you're notcrazy or a failure.
There is a problem, there'ssomething going wrong in our
system that needs to get fixedand let's work together for ways
(09:02):
to improve it.
And if there weren't peoplearound me at times.
Then I made efforts to go outand find them.
That's good advice.
You know, often we can just saywell, you know I'm alone, and a
lot of you know, let's face it,a lot of pastors, we tend to be
(09:25):
introverted, and there'snothing wrong with being
introverted, except for when itgets in the way of us being able
to reach and connect with theLord, and sometimes that
connection is as we stand therein the pulpit and say every week
has to do with working withother people.
So, for instance, as part of mystory as a pastor in the United
(09:47):
Methodist Church in greater NewJersey, when I started
recognizing that there were someissues within the system and
that I felt I was differentwhether that be in the way I
looked at the ordination process, the way I looked at doing
ministry, the way my theologywas, whatever it was as I
started recognizing that therewas something different about me
(10:10):
, I prayed and the Lord startedshowing me.
You're not the only one, and inmy case, this was in 2016,.
There was another group ofpeople who were coming together,
who were asking a lot of thesame questions, and we had a
meeting out in Chicago.
(10:30):
This was the Wesleyan CovenantAssociation.
Right, we had a meeting, andthere I saw other people that I
had affinities with, who werehaving some of the same
questions and so forth, and sothat was helpful and bolstering
for me that I wasn't alone.
There was a time when I was ata conference with a female
(10:53):
pastor that I hardly knew, butwe bonded and I let her in on
some of the challenges I washaving and she was the one who
recognized Beth.
There's a spiritual dimensionto what's happening here and
that's funny for people to hearthat this would be a revelation
to pastors.
(11:14):
But sometimes when you're inyour own world dealing with
difficulties, you don't see thebigger picture, and the bigger
picture always involves thatspiritual piece.
Bigger picture, and the biggerpicture always involves that
spiritual piece.
So having this person say, yeah, you are facing some
persecution and let's attackthis from a spiritual place was
(11:34):
helpful.
Margie (11:36):
Right, and I think I think too.
You know everybody deals withsomething in the hall.
You know, frequently women,clergy, deal with something
related to that.
But let me tell you as well,the guys, there's always
something, I think there'salways something that is our
(11:58):
thorn in the flesh as wecontinue to walk it out.
And the deal, the gig, is to befaithful and obedient on a
day-by-day basis.
But you've identified somethingyou know don't walk alone for
sure.
And this is a prize of theWesleyan heritage that we have,
(12:21):
where this was a key facet.
Beth (12:24):
Yes.
How things developed, go ahead,yeah and yeah and that's I would
say that as important asfinding someone that you can
unload on or whatever, isfinding someone or people that
are going to provide you with agodly counsel and accountability
.
Those are key words in ourWesleyan heritage as well, and
(12:50):
I'm a strong proponent ofWesleyan bands, or, if you call
it, an accountability group orsmall group at this point, but
finding people that you can becomfortable with and develop
relationship with to hold oneanother accountable.
You know I can say that duringsome of the difficult times that
I went through, god put it onmy heart to start a band, and it
(13:15):
was challenging because I'mlike well, who am I going to
have a band with?
There's no one like in my wholestate that agrees with me, but
what God did was help me findprayer partners, actually who I
could be close with, who are allover the country, and for over
two years we have met togethervia Zoom every Monday morning at
(13:39):
eight o'clock.
I have a friend, kim Reisman,who's head of the World
Evangelism Program.
She is part of that.
She's in Indiana.
I have a friend who's a pastordown in Florida, a layperson who
is a leader in the GlobalMethodist Church out in Oklahoma
(14:00):
, and another friend who's adeacon out in Pittsburgh in the
United Methodist Church.
We get together and we hold oneanother up and I cannot tell
you how helpful that has been.
I also would say that, reachingout to others who are beyond
your circle, within yourdenomination, or even that close
(14:24):
of Wesleyanism, I have goodaccountability partners who are
assembly of gods, nazarenesAgain, that's the Wesleyan
heritage.
But again, the point is we canget ourselves caught up in.
No one understands because noone's like me and everyone's got
that when in fact we should belooking for people and I, you
(14:47):
know, I'd even say spiritualmentors versus institutional
ones, and and we can get into awhole thing with that our, our
important family perspectivealways counts.
You know, you know, we, wealways wrestle as pastors with
how much to bring your family in, how much not to bring them in.
(15:07):
Well, do bring them in some,because they help keep you
grounded.
And at the same time, you know,there are wonderful spiritual
directors, coaches, andtherapists.
I mean, there are a lot ofpeople to help you not go it
(15:31):
alone.
Margie (15:33):
So that's the key there, right, and I always think of
that Elijah passage and whenI've preached on it I always say
I realize off of the pages ofscripture there's no intonation,
but I always read that prettywhiny that Elijah says and I'm
(15:53):
the only one left, and I'm theone here that cares about this,
that I'm the only, and it's veryeasy for us to get locked into
that and we need to be veryintentional.
I was just at Palcon atTrevecca Nazarene University and
I took a workshop and they weretalking about spiritual friends
(16:15):
and doing exactly what you weretalking about Once a week
getting together and, if nothingelse, it just gives you more
brains to work with other thanjust your own head, because your
own brain sometimes can get alittle bit nearsighted and out
of focus and definitely losesight of the very, very big
(16:38):
picture.
I think you also mentionedsomething about an app, or am I
making that up?
Beth (16:44):
Yeah, no, there are apps to help you stay within the
framework of a Wesleyan band andall of a sudden, I'm forgetting
the name of ours here.
Margie (16:56):
Okay, Well, we'll put it back in.
If it pops back in, just pauseeverything and we'll insert that
, or we'll insert it in the shownotes, that's not a problem.
Also, I think we talked aboutpaying attention to when God
sends people to help you.
(17:16):
If somebody just all of asudden appears on the scene and
you don't know what to make ofthat really, instead of just
considering the coincidence orjust something happenstance,
it's not really significantreally tuning into the spirit
and saying, oh my, god sees, godknows and God cares.
(17:42):
And I was at another conferenceand I'm standing by my you know
crabby pastor table and thatkind of thing, and a woman came
up to me.
This was when I was with theFree Methodists in Michigan
recently and a woman came up tome and just said this is just so
needed.
And I appreciate that kind ofencouragement, I really do,
(18:05):
keeps me wanting to keep on,keeping on, you know, with it.
But she all of a sudden put herarm around me and just started
praying for my ministry and Iwas so grateful for that.
I really was.
But after she left and as I'mpacking up for the day, I just
reflected back on that andthought and as I'm packing up
(18:26):
for the day, I just reflectedback on that and thought, yep,
god sees, god knows and God doescare.
So it's always amazing whenthose moments arrive and
(18:47):
somebody has skin on and they'vebeen sent by Jesus just to say
you know good job, or keepmoving, or something or anything
that is going to be meaningfulto you and encourage you Amen.
So we are left, then, with oneother aspect that we talked
about, and that is one of myfavorite topics self-care.
So I think you talked aboutministry being a marathon and
not a sprint.
Beth (19:07):
Yes, yes, I'm going to pause here because I remember
the name of that app.
So a great app to help you witha Wesleyan band is something
called Discipleship Bands andit's put out by Seedbed and it
just offers some support aroundthe basic questions that go into
a Wesleyan covenant group.
(19:29):
You know, the first question isalways how is it with your soul
for the group to wrestle with?
And then what are yourstruggles and successes?
And then how might the spiritand scriptures be speaking in
your life?
If you just use those threequestions, you will have robust
conversation.
But the band app that I'mtalking about also offers other
(19:52):
resources and other questions tohelp keep you going.
So I'd recommend that, andanybody can start a band.
Margie (20:00):
I know it sounds funny.
Anybody can start a band and Iautomatically my head goes back
to the 70s, being in the garageand people getting the drums.
You play the guitar.
Beth (20:19):
Not that kind of band, but anybody can start a Wesleyan
band for sure.
And the other thing is often,as pastors, we're good at
helping encourage our laity toget involved in bands, and then
we have this question of whetherto get involved with them or
not, and then, if we may, wantthat kind of accountability with
other pastors but it can beawkward, you know, letting your
hair down or finding the rightpeople and so forth but what I
(20:42):
could say is when, when I prayedabout it and reached out, every
person I reached out to waslike oh, that's wonderful.
I've been wanting to dosomething like this with someone
, so don't let your owninsecurities keep you from doing
it.
It's such a blessing,absolutely, absolutely.
So you were asking me aboutself-care and knowing yourself
(21:05):
and the importance of that, andyou're right.
That is such a key when therocks come.
And, as I had shared with you, Iknow that I am by nature, a
sprinter and not a marathoner,and yet ministry is a marathon,
and what I mean by that is I amsomeone who just gets full of
(21:26):
energy for whatever it is thatI'm working on and I just go, go
, go, and I can just go untilthere's no energy anymore and
then I'm completely depleted.
And what I would say is thatmight be okay if that's who you
are, if that's who you'recreated to be.
(21:47):
Now, sometimes that's just amatter of discipline, right, and
you need to be a little morecognizant.
What I would say is know whatworks for you.
So, for instance, I know that Iget a lot of energy and just go
, go, go, but that means I can'tdo it for a long time and I
have to take more frequentbreaks and I have to have long
(22:10):
rests when I do that, versussomeone who may do a lower,
steadier energy level throughout, may be able to go a little
longer without a Sabbath orwithout.
I know that when we're talkingrealistically in ministry, all
of us struggle with Sabbath.
And when we're legalistic aboutit and say, hey, it's got to
(22:33):
happen exactly this time everyweek and you got to do this,
that's just one more pressurethat makes it difficult for
people.
And what I would say is no, youneed to know yourself and what
the Lord's calling of you on it,and, whatever it is, don't
neglect it.
You know, for me, self-care hasalways been exercise and
(22:59):
vacations.
It's also included taking leaveof absence.
It has been taking specialministry trips to just be
ministered to.
I, you know, I refer in my bookto some time that I spent in
Korea.
I went over there both to doministry and for some rest and
(23:20):
relaxation, but it was also atime for me to be ministered to
and it was just so important.
And I know that I need tocontinue my spiritual
disciplines but not becomeslaves to them for the sake of
the discipline themselves.
(23:40):
And that's you know.
And again, Margie, I'm going toanother level here.
I'm trying to very much soreinforce that spiritual
disciplines are important, butrecognizing that having that
close relationship with the Lordwill make them as fruitful as
possible.
And it's the relationship withthe Lord that's the most
(24:01):
important part about it.
And so I would say, you know,don't beat yourself up over
spiritual disciplines, but findthe balance in your life that
the Lord has put there in theway he made you personally and
you specially.
We all need balance andmoderation and I really think
that that's you know.
Someday that's going to beanother book that I write is
(24:25):
just that importance of thatbalance and moderation for each
of us and figuring out where itfits within the theological
framework that we've been, giventhat this is probably, and
(24:49):
especially now, as we're stillin or coming out of or wherever
we are in these pandemic times,that is such a critical issue.
I just see so many, inparticular pastors, who are
crying out on social media andelsewhere by repeatedly, you
know, just posting theirconcerns or posting concerning
(25:11):
things about their lives thatyou know.
It's time for us to do a gutcheck and say, you know, maybe I
need a break, and I don't thatdoesn't mean walking away from
your calling at all, but whatdoes that break look like?
Margie (25:31):
So, yes, that's really important and I like that you
bring out that balance piece ofnot making your spiritual
disciplines legalistic, you know, or any of that.
Like Sabbath Okay, all right, Iblew it.
I didn't start at 7am thismorning for my exact 24 hours of
(25:54):
you know, and I can get caughtin something like that very
easily and then I feel like Imessed up and then I tag into
and that makes me less thanperfect and then I say, oh, just
nevermind, you know that wholespiral, yeah, just nevermind.
So you know, sometimes I findwhat I need to do is extend some
(26:15):
grace to my own self.
Yes, yes, that way.
And just, you know, I am alittle bit more sprinter ish in
nature.
I can take off, you know, likea shot, and then if I don't pace
myself, I can easily just go gocrash and burn, and that's what
(26:39):
we want to have happen.
So I don't know if that sayssomething better about those who
are a little bit more marathonoriented, but I liked what you
said about knowing which one youare.
Beth (26:50):
Yeah, I mean, and I you know, and I've had that question
myself before Well, would it bebetter if I retrained to be a
marathoner?
And then what I have realizedis, no, if I slow my pace I
don't have fun.
That's not who I am.
That doesn't mean there aren'ttimes that you need to restrain
(27:14):
yourself.
That's not.
You know again.
But in general, when I havepassion and energy towards
something, I have so much andthe adrenaline is there and it
can last for weeks, months,years, right or not, but I
recognize it, I recognize theHoly Spirit in it which fuels it
(27:35):
more.
But if I'm going to payattention to that, I also need
to pay attention to when theHoly Spirit says now, whoa slow
it down back off Right.
Margie (27:46):
And then and then, as you get older and older and I
read this book about cause Iride a bicycle, I cycle, and and
I read about recovery.
It was somebody I'd talked towho does?
I mean, she has high endcycling.
I'm not.
I'm like 11 and a half milesper hour average.
I'm not anybody who's going tobe 20 anything ever, probably.
(28:07):
And she said, oh, you can workinto it.
And I'm thinking, yeah, maybe Idon't want to, but but she said
one thing once you get over acertain age, that you need to
take recovery time.
So no longer do I ride two daysin a row, yep.
And so you apply something likethat to your self-care and
(28:29):
spirituality and you know, asyou get a little older, you
really better do that.
I have a series coming up nextthat's going to have some people
on that have come back fromburnout and they're more than 25
, let's just say more than 35.
And they have some wisdom toshare with us in that regard as
(28:52):
well, in terms of self-care.
So, are there any?
Okay, I have now learned thatfrom one interview I did.
At the end of it, I said, isthere anything you want to add?
And they said to me yeah, younever asked me what makes me
crabby.
I laughed about that and then Ithought I guess I didn't ask
(29:13):
that.
So this is your moment If youwould like to share with us and
and I will give you this caveatthat at a couple of the
conferences that I've been atlately I usually have had one
person saunter by and just kindof smile at me and go I'm never
crabby, and I want to say that,okay, you go find your spouse
(29:36):
and bring them over here andwe'll have this discussion again
.
Whether it is overtly crabby oryou know, within your heart and
spirit is there anything thatyou would like to share with us
that makes you crabby, and maybewhat you do about that?
Beth (29:53):
Yeah, well, you know the maybe this is a boring answer,
but I have to just circle backto what we were just talking
about.
I think I'm crabby when I startletting myself spiral into
questioning my call andquestioning my gifts, when I
start isolating myself and whenI neglect self-care.
(30:19):
And when I neglect self-careand I think those three things
really, I mean when I'm actingout being crabby, when I look at
it, at least one of those isbeing jeopardized and it's a
decision that I have made to doit and not to beat myself up or
(30:39):
anyone else for doing that.
But it's a good self-checklistto look back and say, okay, why
am I so crabby?
Well, maybe it's because Ihaven't taken a break in a long
time.
Maybe it's because I'm justsitting here wallowing in
self-pity and not talking toanybody.
I need to get it out right.
Or maybe it's because I'mstarting to believe those voices
(31:02):
in the head that are sayingyou're not accomplishing
anything.
That's what's important.
You're failing because youweren't called to do any of this
mess to begin with.
So doing those things.
Two other brief things that I'llmention is don't be afraid to
change.
Don't be afraid to changedirection, because God does that
(31:27):
sometimes too.
I always thought that mycalling was to be an ordained
pastor in the United MethodistChurch.
I spent eight years in thatprocess and my book is about
that.
Right, I never became that.
I am, however, an ordainedelder in the Global Methodist
Church right now, and I am doingother things as well.
(31:52):
But that took a realization thatGod had a different plan with
what I was supposed to be doing.
And, of course, the book talksa lot more about why that is.
But my point is sometimes thecalling.
The calling's always there, butyou don't know where it's going
to lead you.
And don't be afraid to takeeither the path less traveled
(32:16):
right, I got to talk in theseshapes but the path less
traveled or the take the aboutface fork in the road.
Do recognize, as Paul did, thatthe spirit wasn't leading him
there.
Right To go somewhere else.
And related to that is don't beafraid to shake the dust off
your feet, Right.
Margie (32:38):
Oswald Chambers says this and he says are you
attached to your ideas about Godor are you attached to God?
And I can add to that and sayare you following your ideas
about what God has for you orare you following Jesus?
You following Jesus.
(33:04):
And that's a hefty, hefty push.
I know I served in pastoralministry for 15 years and I
don't know that if somebodywould have told me what I would
be doing today, that my ministrywould be to ministry leaders, I
would have, you know, thoughts.
That's crazy.
And the bigger, bigger pictureis that the church is in a
transition.
The Big C church is in atransition right now,
post-pandemic, and you're goingto have people who are daring to
(33:28):
follow the call of the Spiritto develop ministries from
within traditional settings thatare new, or they might run
parallel to a traditional churchsetting.
Or there might be some who areindependent and a little more
entrepreneurial.
Or there might be some who, youknow, I'm going to have a used
(33:50):
car lot and I'm going to do itwith this level of integrity and
open and honest trading anddealings with people.
I'm going to do my ministry andmy life and my work and my
practice in such a way thatpeople are going to say hey what
is?
up with that person.
(34:10):
They definitely don't do thestatus quo thing.
Their ministry, their coffeeshop, their I've got friends
doing farming, kind of you know,let me raise really healthy
food for you.
I've got I know people doingall this kind of thing, and so
the question is are we keepingin step with the spirit in this
(34:32):
very, very unique era?
So I want to thank you, beth,for coming on the Krabby Pastor
podcast.
I wonder if people are thinking,if I go on there, does that
mean I'm Crabby?
I don't know, does it?
I think we all are.
This is the honest thing.
I hope not, and I liked whatyou said because that was a good
(34:52):
, healthy ownership of the factthat we all can be Crabby.
We're crabby on the outside orjust crabby on the inside, and
you know Jesus knows.
So thanks again, and I will putthe resources that Beth has
mentioned in the show notes.
Thank you so much for beinghere today.
(35:14):
Hey, thanks for listening.
It is my deep desire andpassion to champion issues of
sustainability in their lives sothat they can go the distance
(35:44):
with God and whatever plans thatGod has for you.
I would love to help, I wouldconsider it an honor and, in all
things, make sure you connectto these sustainability
practices you know, so that youdon't become the Crabby Pastor.
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