August 14, 2024 • 48 mins
Can holy friendships be the key to preventing burnout in ministry? Join us on the Crabby Pastor podcast as Margie Bryce hosts Michaele LaVigne to explore how deep spiritual connections can sustain and enrich pastoral life. Currently, Michaele contributes to the Spiritual Formation Initiative at Nazarene Theological Seminary, focusing on spiritual direction and coaching. She will be hosting a webinar on August 29 on how to start a holy friendship group (see link below).
In our conversation, Michaele shares a personal story of feeling isolated in a large congregation and how divine intervention led her to form a spiritually enriching small group with two lay ministers. Using a spiritual formation primer from Renovare, they engaged in diverse Christian practices, ranging from scripture memorization to social justice actions. This journey not only transformed their spiritual lives but also influenced their congregational practices. Discover how structured holy friendships can lead to profound spiritual growth and leadership transformation.
We also navigate the challenges of establishing holy friendships in ministry, especially for women in leadership roles. Reflecting on biblical examples like Moses and Jethro or Elizabeth and Mary, we discuss the power of these connections. The episode concludes with a critical discussion on recognizing and preventing burnout among ministry leaders, emphasizing the need for sustainable practices and safe spaces where pastors can be honest and supported.
To register for August 29 webinar, please go to:
www.nts.edu/holyfriendships
For more information on Renovare:
https://renovare.org/
In our conversation, Michaele shares a personal story of feeling isolated in a large congregation and how divine intervention led her to form a spiritually enriching small group with two lay ministers. Using a spiritual formation primer from Renovare, they engaged in diverse Christian practices, ranging from scripture memorization to social justice actions. This journey not only transformed their spiritual lives but also influenced their congregational practices. Discover how structured holy friendships can lead to profound spiritual growth and leadership transformation.
We also navigate the challenges of establishing holy friendships in ministry, especially for women in leadership roles. Reflecting on biblical examples like Moses and Jethro or Elizabeth and Mary, we discuss the power of these connections. The episode concludes with a critical discussion on recognizing and preventing burnout among ministry leaders, emphasizing the need for sustainable practices and safe spaces where pastors can be honest and supported.
To register for August 29 webinar, please go to:
www.nts.edu/holyfriendships
For more information on Renovare:
https://renovare.org/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Margie (00:01):
Hey, there, it's Margie Bryce, your host of the Crabby
Pastor podcast, where we talkabout all things sustainability,
whether it's sustainability inministry, in your personal life
and we acknowledge that thechurch is in a transitional time
, so we hit topics there toothat are going to stretch your
(00:22):
mind and the way you lead,especially how you lead yourself
, so that you don't become thecrabby pastor.
This is Margie Bryce, host ofthe Crabby Pastor podcast, where
(00:42):
we talk about all thingsself-care, so that ministry
leaders can fulfill the thingsthat God has asked them to do
and offer God our best in theprocess.
So I talk about all kinds oftopics, and today we're going to
talk about friendship and holyfriendship in particular.
(01:02):
I have Mikae Levine with mehere and she has managed to
participate in and help othersto create these kinds of
relationships, because we oughtnot to walk through life and
through ministry alone andbecome lone rangers that will
(01:25):
indeed, in time, wear on us andreally deplete us.
If we and we pray for community.
I believe that's replicated inthe Father, son and Holy Spirit
for us, so there is a very holypurpose and design for us for
that end.
So Michaele and I are going tochat, but I'd like you to
(01:47):
introduce yourself to us, please.
Michaele (01:50):
Sure, sure.
Thanks so much, Margie, forhaving me.
So I am a mom of two.
I have a 10-year-old and an8-year-old.
I've been married to my husbandalmost 19 years.
Currently we live in South Bend, indiana, but my ministry
journey has started in centralOhio.
Got to be in at the groundlevel of a new start church
(02:14):
there in a lower incomeneighborhood.
That was a great place ofgrowth and challenge for me.
Yeah, just yeah.
Well, that's a whole otherstory.
We could talk about all thefruitfulness of that season.
I was there while I was inseminary at Ashland Theological
(02:37):
Seminary in Ohio.
Then my husband and I spent ayear of volunteer missionary
service in Southern Africa, alittle nation known as Swaziland
, now called Eswatini.
Then from there we were invited.
I was invited to join the staffof Bethany First Church of the
Nazarene out in Oklahoma, andthat came through the time that
(02:59):
we were in Africa.
We partnered a lot with thatcongregation.
So I served there for fiveyears, was the pastor of
discipleship and then, fromBethany First Church, with a
colleague from Bethany FirstChurch, launched a new community
in Oklahoma City, like theurban core Oklahoma City, and
(03:21):
that became Eighth Street Churchof the Nazarene, and it was
that you know that place.
That really allowed me space toput some imaginings into
practice, as you can do whenyou're starting from scratch.
And so I was able to live intomore of the spiritual formation
(03:44):
realm of discipleship and wroteweekly practices for our
congregation, really was able tolean into and offer a lot of
the gifts of contemplativespirituality and Christian
practice, and that also begansome of my journey to what I do
now, which is mostly spiritualdirection.
(04:05):
So I've been operating, servingas a certified spiritual
director the last three years,which also coincided with our
family move to South Bend for myhusband's work, and I don't
pastor a church in the same waythat I had, you know, for those
um for my previous life, um, butI do lead a house church
(04:28):
gathering on Sundays and thenthe majority of my work
throughout the week in ministryis spiritual direction, seeing
folks individually, most of whomare pastors, um, but then also
leading some workshops, retreats, um and conference kinds of
offerings along the lines of,you know, contemplative prayer
(04:53):
and spiritual practice and holyfriendship, which is what we're
talking about Sure and I forgotthat we shared the Ashland thing
.
Margie (05:03):
Ah, yes, I was out there for my doctoral work and I love
Ashland, love that place dearly.
So you also have a role atNazarene Theological, is that
correct?
Michaele (05:14):
Yes, yes, so just recently we launched what we're
calling the Spiritual FormationInitiative through Nazarene
Theological Seminary and I amdirecting that along with Dr
Doug Hardy and Dave Sharps who'soverseeing Praxis.
So it's really kind of anextension of what has been
(05:36):
happening within the classroomalready for a long time the
investment in individualspiritual formation of the
pastor.
But now we're working to extendthat beyond the classroom and
into pastors' lives and theircongregations.
So one of the things that we'redoing is connecting a network
(06:00):
of other spiritual directors toprovide resourcing and care for
our pastors and then createopportunities for congregations
also to receive the gifts andlean into that deeper kind of
listening and discernment thatcan be offered through those
(06:22):
more slow and formative ways ofbeing together.
Margie (06:28):
Yeah, that slow down thing.
You have to work at that.
As iconic as that sounds.
You absolutely.
I've learned that fairlyrecently and I've also had a
spiritual director.
I still have a spiritualdirector and then last, my last
(06:50):
pastoral charge, I had a coachat the same time.
So that was, you know, verydifferent.
Um, but I know, even for me asa coach, I'm pretty.
I'm going to ask at some pointwhen it's appropriate, where's
god, god in this, what do youthink, and those kinds of
spiritual direction things.
So I see the great value indoing that and I have to be
(07:14):
really honest, some of myconnectivity with coaching and
spiritual direction is aswonderful and valuable as they
certainly are.
And I still think that today notjust in the past, but some of
that initially for me wasbecause I had trouble connecting
with other ministry leaders tosit down.
(07:37):
We would talk about this when Iwas out at NTS, we had to write
a rule of life and all that,and we talked about having
others on the journey, but Ifound that I had trouble
connecting with other people.
I mean, we would talk about it.
We would say I know I reallyneed to do this, I know it's
really valuable and so I wouldtake some initiative and try to
(08:01):
do okay date, time and place youknow and try to nail it.
And once it moved to that place, people lost interest and I was
very confused by that and so Ithought I got to do something,
especially when I went back outto Ashland.
And again, this is some of theprocess that's involved we're
(08:22):
writing our personal visionstatement and again it comes up
about don't be doing thisjourney alone, and I attempted
again.
Michaele (08:32):
And.
Margie (08:33):
I just I don't know if I get a failure grade for this or
what, but I do know and we'llleave this kind of information
in the show notes about upcomingworkshops where you're going to
help us with that.
So talk to me some about yourjourney with Holy Friendships,
(08:53):
how that evolved.
Michaele (08:55):
Yeah, I think what you say is so true, Margie, because
we I think for a while anyway,at least within this current and
maybe one generation ofeducation prior to us we know
that we need to do thingstogether, but it's the how that
(09:19):
we struggle with.
There seems to be a realdisconnect with how do we
actually do this together?
Right, and I do think that itmakes a lot of sense.
Reaching out to a spiritualdirector and or a coach is is
one really important way, right,and and that that matters
deeply.
(09:39):
I don't think that they aremutually exclusive, though.
I think we need both.
We need the one voice that isspeaking as a spiritual director
that says you know, I'm goingto listen deeply with you for
how the Holy Spirit is workingand all of our conversational
(10:02):
emphasis is focused on you.
It's not, you know, reciprocalin that moment.
But then we also need thosespaces that are mutually
reciprocal, that we can betogether and say we together are
going to listen to one anotherand also listen to the Holy
Spirit with each other and giveguidance as the Spirit directs
(10:27):
us.
That is not an easy thing toaccomplish because most of our
ways of being together and ourways of speaking with one
another are quite different thanthat.
I felt like you, I felt a needfor this for a very long time
before I actually was introducedto anything that felt like it
(10:52):
was meeting that need.
And I will tell you that itcame through Renovare.
Okay, I'm familiar with thatorganization.
I attended a workshop day notlong after moving to Oklahoma
city.
There was a um, a retreatworkshop in Tulsa hosted by
(11:16):
Renovare and was really justkind of a one day, um, deep dive
into um, into all things,spiritual formation, and okay,
how do we getting to that?
How question like, how do weactually engage?
And their, their push was youknow, if this feels like
(11:38):
something that you are beingdrawn into, it's not a singular,
it's not an individualenterprise.
So find one or two other peopleuse this workbook.
They really recommend it as astarting place of a thing called
the spiritual formation primerand go through and just practice
(12:01):
.
And it really was outlininglike the broad, the multiple
streams of Christianspirituality and tradition
through Christian history andsaying the necessity of each of
those, and then also gavepractices to you know, grow into
those different streams and,you know, said this isn't
(12:25):
something for you to do alone,it's something for you to do
with a group of people inprayerful conversation with one
another.
Well, I had just moved toOklahoma city, bethany area, and
was a young member of a staffand just felt like I was at a
loss as to who I could be inthese kinds of conversations
(12:47):
with.
It did not feel like I had thelongevity in that place or the
sense of safety as a staffperson among a very large
congregation to just find laypeople, find lay people.
And there weren't there werevery few other women on staff at
(13:09):
that point in time that I feltlike we would have that kind of
connection and so I just sat onit for several months and every
time that thought would come upI would just kind of get
disgruntled and be like, wowit's so unfair, that I can't do
anything about this, you know.
And then one day I remember soclearly, you know those moments
(13:30):
where you know that God isbreaking through.
It's not an audible voice, butit's so clear and I was
grumbling again and just feltthat nudge of like this is
something that you need to do,and in exasperation I was just
like I can't do anything aboutit.
You know, I don't have people,and so clearly I sense the
(13:52):
spirit say, well, when are yougoing to ask me?
Are you going to ask me if Ihave any ideas about who you
should?
Oh, yeah, I know.
Margie (14:05):
And then you, in those moments you kind of feel like
this is sort of Christianity 101.
Michaele (14:09):
Right, oh, asking God for guidance about what God's
asking you to do.
What a novel idea.
No, no, that's so funny whenthose moments happen funny when
those moments happen and lo andbehold I mean it was.
It was so vivid Like I.
I paused and I said well, okay,god, I'll humor you.
You know, sure, tell me who youthink would make a good you
(14:34):
know, holy friendship partnerswith me, or whatever.
And I mean those two names flewat me so fast and they had
never appeared on my radarbefore.
But as soon as they, you know,as soon as I wrote them down in
my journal, I was like huh, thatactually might work.
(14:54):
There are two ladies who were,you know, in their own process
of determining a call, but werecurrently lay ministers in the
church, working their waythrough local and district
license kind of questions.
And one was teaching a Sundayschool class and two, you know,
different age ranges.
(15:15):
But I thought, huh, okay.
So I reached out to one andthen the other and told them
what I was thinking and that Ihad asked the other person and
of course, I mean the HolySpirit just orchestrated it so
perfectly.
Each of them said I have beenlonging for something like this
(15:37):
and they knew each other which Ididn't know, and they knew each
other which I didn't know, andthey didn't know each other well
, but they had had a connection,you know, like a decade prior,
and it was really good and theyhad very fond memories of one
another.
And so we just was like okay.
So we started working throughthis.
I think it's like a nine or 10week process or session we
(16:01):
didn't meet weekly, I don'tthink and so we did that
spiritual formation primerthrough Renovare, and at the end
of those weeks, well, I shouldsay it's kind of like it's
teaching, like you read throughkind of curriculum together and
then you have discussion andthen you pick a practice that
(16:23):
you want to try between thattime and the next time that you
meet, and the next time that youmeet you talk about what that
practice was like.
You know, what did we learn,what did you experience,
whatever and so we did that forI don't know eight to 10 weeks,
and then at the end of it, itgives you like a kind of a way
(16:44):
to review how.
What was this process like?
Do we want to keep meeting?
Is there anyone that we want toadd?
And we decided to keep meetingand we didn't use the exact form
the whole time.
That kind of gave us structure,but we did try to have some
kind of structure to keep us ontrack so that it wasn't just a
(17:07):
free for all of conversation.
You know we would give anupdate about.
here's what I sense God doing.
Here's how you can, we can,pray for one another.
And then here's something thatI want to practice or work on
between the time that we meetnext and then we would.
Margie (17:22):
So would that be a spiritual practice that they
work on?
Michaele (17:25):
Yes, or would it?
be, yes, usually yeah.
So the way that book works isthat it gives you, like the I
think it's six or eight streams.
It calls it of Christiantradition and practice, calls it
of Christian tradition andpractice and it outlines like
the here's, you know, within theevangelical tradition, within
(17:51):
the holiness tradition, withinthe social justice tradition,
within the contemplative andincarnational tradition.
So it gives you all of theselike ways to practice in that
area, and so every time we metwe would choose one of those
practices.
So some would feel like a veryclassic, you know spiritual
discipline, like memorizingscripture, or you know a very
(18:15):
specific way of praying.
Others were like, you know,write an encouraging note to
your politician, or, you know,send a letter to someone in
prison from the social justicetradition, or you know just, it
was a.
It was a broad variety, shapedthe way that I led my
(18:41):
congregation in spiritualformation and then shaped a lot
of the practices that I wrotefor our congregation.
That ended up becoming the bookLiving the Way of Jesus.
But that's a whole other.
Margie (18:50):
Right, right, that's all .
So let me ask and I will putthe link to Renovare because
I've been to one of theirworkshops day long and they are
amazing for sure, because I'vebeen to one of their their
workshops day long and they areamazing for sure.
And but what I would like toask now is how do you pattern
(19:13):
your current?
Michaele (19:14):
process of holy friendships, yeah, so.
So the process that I describedjust, you know that started
with the Renovare.
That began in about 2011, Ithink, and we met pretty
faithfully up until 2015 or so,and then there were quite a few
(19:36):
changes and we added someone tothat group and then someone
moved out of the country and so,you know, it just was a little
bit in flux and so we stoppedmeeting regularly about, um,
maybe it was 2016 that thathappened.
Anyway there were several yearswhere I wasn't meeting regularly
(19:57):
with any kind of um group.
And then during COVID, wheneverybody was just in the height
COVID and you know the in thewake of George Floyd's murder
and Black Lives Matter movement,and just so much upheaval and
(20:19):
distress, exhaustion andisolation, it just felt like I
needed something.
But I looked around and noticedthat the majority of people
that I, you know, I have a broadnetwork, as you do, you know,
being a pastor, you have a broadnetwork of other pastors.
And I was like man, we pastorsare some of the most isolated
(20:41):
and exhausted among the bunch.
This is not a good place to be.
And so, again, I really sensedthis, I really sensed this
drawing into this way of ofrelationship again.
And so again I prayed and askedokay, who, who are the women
(21:02):
pastors that I can?
You know that that really aremy peers that we can engage with
together?
And this time it was quitedifferent.
We already knew, you know,everything was virtual, so I
wasn't limited to geography, andI knew of a handful of women
(21:24):
that I had engaged with onlineor had seen speaking, or, you
know, we're in where we're insome level of communication
already and just kind ofadmiring one another.
We're encouraging one anotherfrom afar, right.
And so I reached out to, Ithink, six and just kind of said
(21:44):
, hey, I have this idea, what doyou think?
And four jumped on it and saidyes, please, this is really.
Margie (21:52):
How many did you ask?
Just for those of us that aresitting back?
Michaele (21:55):
going.
Yeah, no, I think I asked fiveor six, and four students, yeah,
okay, I think.
So Maybe I'll have to go back,but anyway, it wasn't like I
didn't cast a wide net.
I really just, you know, and Ieven thought, if everybody says
yes, we might be too large of agroup, you know, but these are
(22:18):
the people that came to mind, soI'll follow up.
So we met as a group of fivefor a while, for two years, and
then now we are a group of four.
One of those women made sometransitions and is no longer
meeting with us, doing someother things, doing some other
(22:48):
things, and that group did notstart with the same level of
structure that my previous groupdid.
I think everybody at that pointwas nobody knew each other well
.
Some of us had known each otherin previous ways, but nobody
knew each other well and we wereliving in four different States
, and so we decided that we justreally wanted to get to know
(23:12):
each other and pray together andcreate a place of safety and
honesty for one another.
Now this is a group of reallymature and I I mean I think some
of the I mean I'm biased,because now they are like my
soul sisters you know, but someof the best of the best Right.
(23:35):
And so you know, we have folksin that group who have studied
spiritual formation anddirection for a long time, and I
think everyone but me now has adoctorate in some level of, you
(23:55):
know, spirituality or formation.
So we weren't coming into thisnewbies, but we also were not
again.
We were like people who knowwhat you need to do, but you
just don't know how to do it,and so we gave each other the
space to practice and we justlike, tried stuff.
(24:15):
So at this point, we've nowbeen together four years, I
think.
Yeah, wow, almost four years,because I think we started
meeting the end of summer 2020or beginning of fall, and we've
seen each other through familydeaths and work transitions and
(24:36):
illnesses, just big moves.
I mean, it's just been, youknow, all the stuff of life.
So at this point, we need farless structure to really talk
about deep the things of howgoes it with your soul you know,
but we needed some guide railsat the beginning to say, like,
(24:57):
how do we structure this sacredtime together different than any
other time that we meet?
So now we're in a rhythm wherewe take turns, one person leads
each time, so it doesn't fall toone person every time and that
person just leads off with youknow some kind of small shared
(25:18):
practice or devotional, you knowsomething that we've read in
our own devotional readings andgive some like questions for
thought, and then we go aroundand share along with like hey,
what, how is you know thissituation that we've been
praying for and how is yourspouse handling?
(25:39):
You know the current whatever,and and then we, we pray
together.
We also have a very activeWhatsApp thread so that in
between times that we meet,where we're sharing life and
talking and and keeping theconversation going that way,
(26:01):
yeah, so you meet how often?
Again?
Well, in the summer it's quiteall over the place.
We try to meet once a month inthe summer, and then in the
office, and then in the rest ofthe time it's every other week.
Okay, all right.
Margie (26:16):
So I think I'm guessing it's purely a guess that what
you're doing now is what hasinfluenced your upcoming
workshop on this, absolutelyyeah.
Michaele (26:29):
Yeah.
So the Holy Friendship webinaror workshop, whatever is offered
through the Wine Coop Centerfor Women in Leadership at
Nazarene Theological Seminary,we hope and we are planning to
broaden that and invite somemale colleagues and so that we
(26:50):
can also offer this as anon-gender specific offering.
But right now we havespecifically designed this
webinar and the accompanyingresource for women clergy.
Again, it's because that's whowe are particular to, the
(27:28):
there's something particular tothe challenges of women in
ministry that this seems likeabsolutely essential.
So that's where we started.
We also, you know, recognizethere's all kinds of.
We seen the need for this andwe long for people to
participate, but we can't keepadding individuals to our group.
(27:48):
That's just not how you do it.
Margie (27:50):
What's the, what's the you'd want?
Maybe what four?
Michaele (27:54):
five.
Yeah, I would say probably weoperated with five.
That's the largest group thatI've been a part of.
We operated with five.
That's the largest group thatI've been a part of and I think
that's probably max, mostlybecause maybe if you're in
person it's a little bitdifferent.
But organizing time schedulesgets challenging and then also
(28:20):
keeping your meeting time towhere everybody has equal
opportunity to share that that'sreally really important and the
more people you add, the harderit is to actually do that.
Margie (28:37):
So you're looking at maybe, how long does an average
or typical.
Michaele (28:41):
We try to meet an hour .
Sometimes, you know, if we'relike, hey, we haven't met in a
while and we really need alonger session, then we'll, all
you know, plan for an hour and ahalf or something.
We've also now met twice inperson for like a kind of
retreat all together and we'vedone that like, I think, two
(29:01):
days each time and that's beenreally, really good.
Margie (29:07):
Nice, nice.
Well, you had an era where youpractice the Renovare process
and then you had a time inbetween where you didn't have
anything, and then move to atime where now you you do again
have this.
Can you describe for us, then,what you felt during that era
(29:30):
where you had nothing?
Michaele (29:34):
I would say, while I didn't have anything that was
holy friendship, I had otherthings.
Anything that was holyfriendship, I had other things.
Um, that was the.
Those intervening years werethe height of, um, my toddler,
mommy phase and church plantingdays oh, that's busy.
(29:56):
It was very busy.
My husband was working on hisPhD.
It was very busy.
But in that busyness there was adifferent kind of holy
friendship that emerged from ourchurch planting pastor team
(30:17):
degree, you know, but a lot ofshared life, shared prayer,
shared visioning, so that I didnot feel like I was going it
alone.
But it just took on a differentshape during that season and
that's also the season that Istarted regular spiritual
direction direction.
(30:38):
So I think that you know again,it's not the same thing, but a
lot of what I it felt like.
There were things that I, for asmuch as I trusted and loved you
know, my initial holyfriendship group there were some
things that I I needed to bechallenged in and process
(31:03):
through.
That needed to happen at thenon-mutual level.
Right, it needed to be me andthe spiritual director really
wrestling some things out, orreally me and the and the Holy
spirit, you know, and wrestlingis probably not the right word,
because the spirit engages us sogently and invitationally, um,
(31:28):
but that seems like aninvitation to go into a deeper
place.
That prepared me for what wasnext.
So it wasn't like I had nothing, um, but it was just a very
different and I think, I thinkthat's an important, that's an
important thing for us to nameand give permission for the need
(31:50):
for different seasons and theway that, you know, our
relationships and our practicescan ebb and flow based on the
particularities of any givenseason, and that spirit is maybe
more okay with that than we are.
Margie (32:12):
Sure, If you had to name , then what?
Why we need this what would yousay?
Michaele (32:24):
Why we need?
Why we need?
Margie (32:27):
each other, why we need the holy friendship yeah.
Michaele (32:36):
Gosh, there's so many things that we need.
There's so many things that weneed.
I think it is really difficultas pastors to find spaces where
it's safe to be known.
Margie (32:56):
Yeah, I can say it this way we need a safe place where
we can be honest.
Yes, exactly.
Michaele (33:06):
And I would say that at the beginning of our holy
friendship, this kind of secondedition that I'm a part of now,
I don't know that you can't justmanufacture that safety in an
instant right.
It takes a level of trust thatgrows over time.
But over time, you know, I knowthat to those women I am not
(33:33):
Pastor Michaele LaVigne, churchPlanter Michaele LaVigne,
spiritual Director MichaeleLaVigne, conference Speaker
Michaele LaVinge, conferencespeaker Michaele LaVigne or
author Michaele LaVigne.
(34:04):
I'm not.
I don't have to put on a show,even on the days where I have
nothing good to show up with,you know.
And and then there's also thetimes that there have been for
each of us.
There's been seasons wheresomething so hard is happening
(34:31):
that it's hard to even say itout loud, let alone voice it to
another person.
And yet the incredible gift ofwalking with people who the
hardest stuff out loud, the badnews, the thing that feels like
(34:58):
the impossible situation.
They don't rush to fix it, theydon't judge you, they just sit
with you where you're at andcommit to praying, and pray with
wisdom, I mean, it's just andthen speak the truth that you
(35:21):
forget sometimes.
Right Like this is not what,what you are feeling and
thinking and all of the shamethat you're piling on yourself
right now.
That is not of God we have.
We have to have people that saythat to us For sure, for sure,
(35:43):
for sure.
(36:06):
In a post-gendered ormisogynistic society where, like
you know, we're past all ofthat, right, and the reality is,
and there are times when weneed, as women, to say to one
another you know, you're comingup against the principality and
powers of sexism, right, likeyou know, that's what this is,
(36:28):
yeah.
And then it's like, oh gosh,you're right.
Okay, now we can name it, nowwe can put that out there and
say, all right, then thatchanges how I handle things or
how we're going to pray aboutthis, and then giving wise and
(36:50):
bold counsel to one another,because being a woman in that
place of leadership is sochallenging, because you don't
want to play the gender cardright all the time.
Margie (37:01):
Right, you don't, but you don't want to play the
gender card right All the time.
Right, you don't, but you don'twant to always hesitate to kind
of go in that direction.
But I just had a conversationyesterday with somebody where I
said not only am I female, andif I complain to God, I'm like
this little yapping piece ofclay saying you know, you're
male, which then I'm telling Godyou made a mistake which I
(37:22):
can't do theologically oranything.
You know, maybe it's just it Isaid, and then I'm short.
So this is kind of you know,and you have to figure out how
to still function according towhat God is asking you to do,
regardless.
(37:48):
And that's why I'm thinking ofthe picture of Moses and his
father-in-law, jethro, comingand holding arms up, and you
need people to come around youand you need to be that.
You need to hold somebodyelse's arm up as well.
It's a real mutual kind of gift, really.
It is.
Michaele (38:04):
I also think of the story of Elizabeth and Mary, you
know, and I think this is sucha beautiful example of holy
friendship where, quiteliterally, one is giving witness
to what God is growing insideof the other.
(38:25):
Oh, I like that picture, ohyeah, and saying you're not
crazy, I see it too, and you aredeeply blessed in in this and
that mutual rejoicing,solidarity in the hardship of
(38:46):
people not understanding andthinking that you're crazy.
And you know, beingmarginalized and and knowing
that there's a hard, your favorin God's eyes also brings a
harder road ahead.
But, but you are not.
But, but there's another personwho knows what it's like, and I
(39:06):
think that is what we sodesperately need and what I've
been so deeply fortunate toreceive.
Margie (39:17):
Well, thank you for painting this beautiful picture
for us and for sure I will beadding your workshop link.
I'll get that from you and I'llput that in with the show notes
and I'll push it out to theplaces that I can push and
(39:43):
hopefully we will have morepeople to step in to this and
get to experience even a tasteof what you have presented to us
today would be amazing, yeah.
Michaele (39:57):
Well, I'm glad.
Yeah, well I'm glad.
(40:24):
I'll let you know too, becauseI think that the how is even
more it's not more importantsession preview or a kind of a
getting started sort of thing,similar to what I received in
the Renovare stuff.
But this is particular to womenclergy groups and gives us a
chance to set the tone for adifferent way of being together
(40:44):
and in conversation.
So that will come.
As you know, people who sign upfor the webinar will receive
that automatically with the costof the webinar.
Margie (40:56):
Right Great, and the cost of the webinar is Right
Great, and the cost of thewebinar is yeah, you were going
to ask me that.
Michaele (41:02):
I'm pretty sure it's $30.
Margie (41:04):
Okay, that's a deal.
Yeah, you can say $30-ish.
Yes, if it hasn't been nailedbecause we, you know record
these way in advance and youknow stuff.
But yeah, so it is.
Let's is, let's say, affordable.
Yeah, we're trying to make itso, yes, okay well, thank you so
(41:27):
much for being on the crabbypastor podcast.
I appreciate this so much, buthere's a question that I
frequently not always, because Idon't know.
It falls out of my headsometimes to even ask.
But, um, is there anythingabout life and ministry that
makes you crabby?
Michaele (41:48):
Yeah, yes.
Margie (41:52):
Would you have any particular item that you would
care to share?
Michaele (41:56):
Oh, mercy.
Well, I would say I mostly getcrabby these days in trying to
organize my schedule.
Oh, okay, it's the tedium ofadministrative stuff, not having
(42:19):
another brain to help keep mestraight.
Um, and I recently found whereI had made a scheduling error
and double booked myself.
And um can't be at a conferenceand a retreat at the same time,
and so that makes me crabby.
Margie (42:37):
Oh well, thank you so much for playing that game and
and sharing that with us,because we all get crabby?
I always ask this because at aconference, um, a gentleman came
up to my table and said,because it had a crab on it, and
said you know that stuff?
And he said I'm never crabby, Idon't know.
(42:58):
Like, I don't know what you'retalking about.
I'm never crabby, I don't know,like, I don't know what you're
talking about, I'm never crabby.
He didn't say I don't know whatyou're talking about, but he
just said I'm not crabby.
And I said well, why don't yougo find your spouse and bring
her here?
And he never came back.
Oh, surprise, but that's funny.
You know, when you're notserving in a pastoral capacity,
(43:19):
I feel like I'm a little moreemboldened to push at times.
So, anyway, um, that truth thatwe need to hear, I guess.
Well, thank you so much for umbeing on the podcast and and, uh
, blessings on your continuedministry in this new venture and
(43:41):
in all the ventures that youhave going right now.
Thank you, thank you so muchBlessings on you.
So how do the pieces of yourlife fit together?
Do they fit together well andthings are humming along just
fine, or are there some piecesthat are tight or absent or just
(44:06):
not fitting the bill?
This is your invitation to joinme in my glass workshop for a
video series, where I am goingto do a stained glass project
while I talk to you aboutsustainability and building
sustainability into your heartand into your life.
So I am going to be doing myart, which is a form of
(44:31):
self-care, and I'm going toinvite you into that space with
me and I'm going to chat.
I'm going to chat aboutself-care and I'm going to chat.
I'm going to chat aboutself-care and I'm going to show
you how I create, and there's anifty, nifty analogy Stained
glass seems to be a very goodmetaphor for what I want to talk
(44:51):
about.
So I'd love for you to join meto do that.
To opt in, I'll need you toemail me at crabbypastor at
gmailcom.
That's crabbypastor at gmailcom.
So you won't want to miss this.
You definitely won't want tomiss this.
So make a plan to join me inthe glass workshop.
(45:18):
Are you wondering whether yourfatigue, your lack of motivation
, your lack of interest isburnout Maybe.
I just wanted to let you knowthat I have a resource on the
website, margiebricecom.
(45:38):
That's B-R-Y-C-E.
Margiebicecom, that's b-r-y-c-e.
Margiebricecom, and it is aburnout questionnaire, free for
you to download, and kind ofself-assess and get a sense of
where you're at.
And there are questions thatnot only ask about what you're
going through but maybe howoften you're experiencing it and
(46:01):
that's kind of a key to whereyou might be, because you have
to know where you are in orderto chart a course forward.
And most pastors who experiencepastors and ministry leaders
who experience burnout rarelyknow that that's where they're
(46:23):
at until they're well into it.
And if you're unsure about thatlittle statistic, so far,
everybody that I've interviewedon this podcast who has
experienced burnout, when Iasked that kind of question,
they're like, yeah, I didn'tknow, that's where I was at.
So again, go to margiebricecom.
It's on the home page of thewebsite and you can get your
(46:49):
burnout questionnaire and kindof see where you're at.
Hey friends, the Crabby Pastorpodcast is sponsored by Bryce
Art Glass and you can find thaton Facebook.
I make stained glass, that'spart of my self-care and also by
(47:10):
Bryce Coaching, where I coachministry leaders and business
leaders, so the funds that Igenerate from coaching and from
making stained glass is what issupporting this podcast and I
will have opportunities for youto be a part of sponsoring me
(47:32):
and, as always, you can do thebuy me a cup of coffee thing in
the in the show notes.
But I will have some other waysthat you can be a part of
getting the word out about theimportance of healthy self-care
for ministry leaders.
Hey, thanks for listening.
(47:55):
It is my deep desire andpassion to champion issues of
sustainability in ministry andfor your life, so I'm here to
help.
I stepped back from pastoralministry and I feel called to
help ministry leaders create andcultivate sustainability in
(48:17):
their lives so that they can gothe distance with God and
whatever plans that God has foryou.
I would love to help, I wouldconsider it an honor and, in all
things, make sure you connectto these sustainability
practices you know, so that youdon't become the Crabby Pastor.
Hey, there, it's Margie Bryce, your host of the Crabby
Pastor podcast, where we talkabout all things sustainability,
whether it's sustainability inministry, in your personal life
and we acknowledge that thechurch is in a transitional time
, so we hit topics there toothat are going to stretch your
(00:22):
mind and the way you lead,especially how you lead yourself
, so that you don't become thecrabby pastor.
This is Margie Bryce, host ofthe Crabby Pastor podcast, where
(00:42):
we talk about all thingsself-care, so that ministry
leaders can fulfill the thingsthat God has asked them to do
and offer God our best in theprocess.
So I talk about all kinds oftopics, and today we're going to
talk about friendship and holyfriendship in particular.
(01:02):
I have Mikae Levine with mehere and she has managed to
participate in and help othersto create these kinds of
relationships, because we oughtnot to walk through life and
through ministry alone andbecome lone rangers that will
(01:25):
indeed, in time, wear on us andreally deplete us.
If we and we pray for community.
I believe that's replicated inthe Father, son and Holy Spirit
for us, so there is a very holypurpose and design for us for
that end.
So Michaele and I are going tochat, but I'd like you to
(01:47):
introduce yourself to us, please.
Michaele (01:50):
Sure, sure.
Thanks so much, Margie, forhaving me.
So I am a mom of two.
I have a 10-year-old and an8-year-old.
I've been married to my husbandalmost 19 years.
Currently we live in South Bend, indiana, but my ministry
journey has started in centralOhio.
Got to be in at the groundlevel of a new start church
(02:14):
there in a lower incomeneighborhood.
That was a great place ofgrowth and challenge for me.
Yeah, just yeah.
Well, that's a whole otherstory.
We could talk about all thefruitfulness of that season.
I was there while I was inseminary at Ashland Theological
(02:37):
Seminary in Ohio.
Then my husband and I spent ayear of volunteer missionary
service in Southern Africa, alittle nation known as Swaziland
, now called Eswatini.
Then from there we were invited.
I was invited to join the staffof Bethany First Church of the
Nazarene out in Oklahoma, andthat came through the time that
(02:59):
we were in Africa.
We partnered a lot with thatcongregation.
So I served there for fiveyears, was the pastor of
discipleship and then, fromBethany First Church, with a
colleague from Bethany FirstChurch, launched a new community
in Oklahoma City, like theurban core Oklahoma City, and
(03:21):
that became Eighth Street Churchof the Nazarene, and it was
that you know that place.
That really allowed me space toput some imaginings into
practice, as you can do whenyou're starting from scratch.
And so I was able to live intomore of the spiritual formation
(03:44):
realm of discipleship and wroteweekly practices for our
congregation, really was able tolean into and offer a lot of
the gifts of contemplativespirituality and Christian
practice, and that also begansome of my journey to what I do
now, which is mostly spiritualdirection.
(04:05):
So I've been operating, servingas a certified spiritual
director the last three years,which also coincided with our
family move to South Bend for myhusband's work, and I don't
pastor a church in the same waythat I had, you know, for those
um for my previous life, um, butI do lead a house church
(04:28):
gathering on Sundays and thenthe majority of my work
throughout the week in ministryis spiritual direction, seeing
folks individually, most of whomare pastors, um, but then also
leading some workshops, retreats, um and conference kinds of
offerings along the lines of,you know, contemplative prayer
(04:53):
and spiritual practice and holyfriendship, which is what we're
talking about Sure and I forgotthat we shared the Ashland thing
.
Margie (05:03):
Ah, yes, I was out there for my doctoral work and I love
Ashland, love that place dearly.
So you also have a role atNazarene Theological, is that
correct?
Michaele (05:14):
Yes, yes, so just recently we launched what we're
calling the Spiritual FormationInitiative through Nazarene
Theological Seminary and I amdirecting that along with Dr
Doug Hardy and Dave Sharps who'soverseeing Praxis.
So it's really kind of anextension of what has been
(05:36):
happening within the classroomalready for a long time the
investment in individualspiritual formation of the
pastor.
But now we're working to extendthat beyond the classroom and
into pastors' lives and theircongregations.
So one of the things that we'redoing is connecting a network
(06:00):
of other spiritual directors toprovide resourcing and care for
our pastors and then createopportunities for congregations
also to receive the gifts andlean into that deeper kind of
listening and discernment thatcan be offered through those
(06:22):
more slow and formative ways ofbeing together.
Margie (06:28):
Yeah, that slow down thing.
You have to work at that.
As iconic as that sounds.
You absolutely.
I've learned that fairlyrecently and I've also had a
spiritual director.
I still have a spiritualdirector and then last, my last
(06:50):
pastoral charge, I had a coachat the same time.
So that was, you know, verydifferent.
Um, but I know, even for me asa coach, I'm pretty.
I'm going to ask at some pointwhen it's appropriate, where's
god, god in this, what do youthink, and those kinds of
spiritual direction things.
So I see the great value indoing that and I have to be
(07:14):
really honest, some of myconnectivity with coaching and
spiritual direction is aswonderful and valuable as they
certainly are.
And I still think that today notjust in the past, but some of
that initially for me wasbecause I had trouble connecting
with other ministry leaders tosit down.
(07:37):
We would talk about this when Iwas out at NTS, we had to write
a rule of life and all that,and we talked about having
others on the journey, but Ifound that I had trouble
connecting with other people.
I mean, we would talk about it.
We would say I know I reallyneed to do this, I know it's
really valuable and so I wouldtake some initiative and try to
(08:01):
do okay date, time and place youknow and try to nail it.
And once it moved to that place, people lost interest and I was
very confused by that and so Ithought I got to do something,
especially when I went back outto Ashland.
And again, this is some of theprocess that's involved we're
(08:22):
writing our personal visionstatement and again it comes up
about don't be doing thisjourney alone, and I attempted
again.
Michaele (08:32):
And.
Margie (08:33):
I just I don't know if I get a failure grade for this or
what, but I do know and we'llleave this kind of information
in the show notes about upcomingworkshops where you're going to
help us with that.
So talk to me some about yourjourney with Holy Friendships,
(08:53):
how that evolved.
Michaele (08:55):
Yeah, I think what you say is so true, Margie, because
we I think for a while anyway,at least within this current and
maybe one generation ofeducation prior to us we know
that we need to do thingstogether, but it's the how that
(09:19):
we struggle with.
There seems to be a realdisconnect with how do we
actually do this together?
Right, and I do think that itmakes a lot of sense.
Reaching out to a spiritualdirector and or a coach is is
one really important way, right,and and that that matters
deeply.
(09:39):
I don't think that they aremutually exclusive, though.
I think we need both.
We need the one voice that isspeaking as a spiritual director
that says you know, I'm goingto listen deeply with you for
how the Holy Spirit is workingand all of our conversational
(10:02):
emphasis is focused on you.
It's not, you know, reciprocalin that moment.
But then we also need thosespaces that are mutually
reciprocal, that we can betogether and say we together are
going to listen to one anotherand also listen to the Holy
Spirit with each other and giveguidance as the Spirit directs
(10:27):
us.
That is not an easy thing toaccomplish because most of our
ways of being together and ourways of speaking with one
another are quite different thanthat.
I felt like you, I felt a needfor this for a very long time
before I actually was introducedto anything that felt like it
(10:52):
was meeting that need.
And I will tell you that itcame through Renovare.
Okay, I'm familiar with thatorganization.
I attended a workshop day notlong after moving to Oklahoma
city.
There was a um, a retreatworkshop in Tulsa hosted by
(11:16):
Renovare and was really justkind of a one day, um, deep dive
into um, into all things,spiritual formation, and okay,
how do we getting to that?
How question like, how do weactually engage?
And their, their push was youknow, if this feels like
(11:38):
something that you are beingdrawn into, it's not a singular,
it's not an individualenterprise.
So find one or two other peopleuse this workbook.
They really recommend it as astarting place of a thing called
the spiritual formation primerand go through and just practice
(12:01):
.
And it really was outlininglike the broad, the multiple
streams of Christianspirituality and tradition
through Christian history andsaying the necessity of each of
those, and then also gavepractices to you know, grow into
those different streams and,you know, said this isn't
(12:25):
something for you to do alone,it's something for you to do
with a group of people inprayerful conversation with one
another.
Well, I had just moved toOklahoma city, bethany area, and
was a young member of a staffand just felt like I was at a
loss as to who I could be inthese kinds of conversations
(12:47):
with.
It did not feel like I had thelongevity in that place or the
sense of safety as a staffperson among a very large
congregation to just find laypeople, find lay people.
And there weren't there werevery few other women on staff at
(13:09):
that point in time that I feltlike we would have that kind of
connection and so I just sat onit for several months and every
time that thought would come upI would just kind of get
disgruntled and be like, wowit's so unfair, that I can't do
anything about this, you know.
And then one day I remember soclearly, you know those moments
(13:30):
where you know that God isbreaking through.
It's not an audible voice, butit's so clear and I was
grumbling again and just feltthat nudge of like this is
something that you need to do,and in exasperation I was just
like I can't do anything aboutit.
You know, I don't have people,and so clearly I sense the
(13:52):
spirit say, well, when are yougoing to ask me?
Are you going to ask me if Ihave any ideas about who you
should?
Oh, yeah, I know.
Margie (14:05):
And then you, in those moments you kind of feel like
this is sort of Christianity 101.
Michaele (14:09):
Right, oh, asking God for guidance about what God's
asking you to do.
What a novel idea.
No, no, that's so funny whenthose moments happen funny when
those moments happen and lo andbehold I mean it was.
It was so vivid Like I.
I paused and I said well, okay,god, I'll humor you.
You know, sure, tell me who youthink would make a good you
(14:34):
know, holy friendship partnerswith me, or whatever.
And I mean those two names flewat me so fast and they had
never appeared on my radarbefore.
But as soon as they, you know,as soon as I wrote them down in
my journal, I was like huh, thatactually might work.
(14:54):
There are two ladies who were,you know, in their own process
of determining a call, but werecurrently lay ministers in the
church, working their waythrough local and district
license kind of questions.
And one was teaching a Sundayschool class and two, you know,
different age ranges.
(15:15):
But I thought, huh, okay.
So I reached out to one andthen the other and told them
what I was thinking and that Ihad asked the other person and
of course, I mean the HolySpirit just orchestrated it so
perfectly.
Each of them said I have beenlonging for something like this
(15:37):
and they knew each other which Ididn't know, and they knew each
other which I didn't know, andthey didn't know each other well
, but they had had a connection,you know, like a decade prior,
and it was really good and theyhad very fond memories of one
another.
And so we just was like okay.
So we started working throughthis.
I think it's like a nine or 10week process or session we
(16:01):
didn't meet weekly, I don'tthink and so we did that
spiritual formation primerthrough Renovare, and at the end
of those weeks, well, I shouldsay it's kind of like it's
teaching, like you read throughkind of curriculum together and
then you have discussion andthen you pick a practice that
(16:23):
you want to try between thattime and the next time that you
meet, and the next time that youmeet you talk about what that
practice was like.
You know, what did we learn,what did you experience,
whatever and so we did that forI don't know eight to 10 weeks,
and then at the end of it, itgives you like a kind of a way
(16:44):
to review how.
What was this process like?
Do we want to keep meeting?
Is there anyone that we want toadd?
And we decided to keep meetingand we didn't use the exact form
the whole time.
That kind of gave us structure,but we did try to have some
kind of structure to keep us ontrack so that it wasn't just a
(17:07):
free for all of conversation.
You know we would give anupdate about.
here's what I sense God doing.
Here's how you can, we can,pray for one another.
And then here's something thatI want to practice or work on
between the time that we meetnext and then we would.
Margie (17:22):
So would that be a spiritual practice that they
work on?
Michaele (17:25):
Yes, or would it?
be, yes, usually yeah.
So the way that book works isthat it gives you, like the I
think it's six or eight streams.
It calls it of Christiantradition and practice, calls it
of Christian tradition andpractice and it outlines like
the here's, you know, within theevangelical tradition, within
(17:51):
the holiness tradition, withinthe social justice tradition,
within the contemplative andincarnational tradition.
So it gives you all of theselike ways to practice in that
area, and so every time we metwe would choose one of those
practices.
So some would feel like a veryclassic, you know spiritual
discipline, like memorizingscripture, or you know a very
(18:15):
specific way of praying.
Others were like, you know,write an encouraging note to
your politician, or, you know,send a letter to someone in
prison from the social justicetradition, or you know just, it
was a.
It was a broad variety, shapedthe way that I led my
(18:41):
congregation in spiritualformation and then shaped a lot
of the practices that I wrotefor our congregation.
That ended up becoming the bookLiving the Way of Jesus.
But that's a whole other.
Margie (18:50):
Right, right, that's all .
So let me ask and I will putthe link to Renovare because
I've been to one of theirworkshops day long and they are
amazing for sure, because I'vebeen to one of their their
workshops day long and they areamazing for sure.
And but what I would like toask now is how do you pattern
(19:13):
your current?
Michaele (19:14):
process of holy friendships, yeah, so.
So the process that I describedjust, you know that started
with the Renovare.
That began in about 2011, Ithink, and we met pretty
faithfully up until 2015 or so,and then there were quite a few
(19:36):
changes and we added someone tothat group and then someone
moved out of the country and so,you know, it just was a little
bit in flux and so we stoppedmeeting regularly about, um,
maybe it was 2016 that thathappened.
Anyway there were several yearswhere I wasn't meeting regularly
(19:57):
with any kind of um group.
And then during COVID, wheneverybody was just in the height
COVID and you know the in thewake of George Floyd's murder
and Black Lives Matter movement,and just so much upheaval and
(20:19):
distress, exhaustion andisolation, it just felt like I
needed something.
But I looked around and noticedthat the majority of people
that I, you know, I have a broadnetwork, as you do, you know,
being a pastor, you have a broadnetwork of other pastors.
And I was like man, we pastorsare some of the most isolated
(20:41):
and exhausted among the bunch.
This is not a good place to be.
And so, again, I really sensedthis, I really sensed this
drawing into this way of ofrelationship again.
And so again I prayed and askedokay, who, who are the women
(21:02):
pastors that I can?
You know that that really aremy peers that we can engage with
together?
And this time it was quitedifferent.
We already knew, you know,everything was virtual, so I
wasn't limited to geography, andI knew of a handful of women
(21:24):
that I had engaged with onlineor had seen speaking, or, you
know, we're in where we're insome level of communication
already and just kind ofadmiring one another.
We're encouraging one anotherfrom afar, right.
And so I reached out to, Ithink, six and just kind of said
(21:44):
, hey, I have this idea, what doyou think?
And four jumped on it and saidyes, please, this is really.
Margie (21:52):
How many did you ask?
Just for those of us that aresitting back?
Michaele (21:55):
going.
Yeah, no, I think I asked fiveor six, and four students, yeah,
okay, I think.
So Maybe I'll have to go back,but anyway, it wasn't like I
didn't cast a wide net.
I really just, you know, and Ieven thought, if everybody says
yes, we might be too large of agroup, you know, but these are
(22:18):
the people that came to mind, soI'll follow up.
So we met as a group of fivefor a while, for two years, and
then now we are a group of four.
One of those women made sometransitions and is no longer
meeting with us, doing someother things, doing some other
(22:48):
things, and that group did notstart with the same level of
structure that my previous groupdid.
I think everybody at that pointwas nobody knew each other well
.
Some of us had known each otherin previous ways, but nobody
knew each other well and we wereliving in four different States
, and so we decided that we justreally wanted to get to know
(23:12):
each other and pray together andcreate a place of safety and
honesty for one another.
Now this is a group of reallymature and I I mean I think some
of the I mean I'm biased,because now they are like my
soul sisters you know, but someof the best of the best Right.
(23:35):
And so you know, we have folksin that group who have studied
spiritual formation anddirection for a long time, and I
think everyone but me now has adoctorate in some level of, you
(23:55):
know, spirituality or formation.
So we weren't coming into thisnewbies, but we also were not
again.
We were like people who knowwhat you need to do, but you
just don't know how to do it,and so we gave each other the
space to practice and we justlike, tried stuff.
(24:15):
So at this point, we've nowbeen together four years, I
think.
Yeah, wow, almost four years,because I think we started
meeting the end of summer 2020or beginning of fall, and we've
seen each other through familydeaths and work transitions and
(24:36):
illnesses, just big moves.
I mean, it's just been, youknow, all the stuff of life.
So at this point, we need farless structure to really talk
about deep the things of howgoes it with your soul you know,
but we needed some guide railsat the beginning to say, like,
(24:57):
how do we structure this sacredtime together different than any
other time that we meet?
So now we're in a rhythm wherewe take turns, one person leads
each time, so it doesn't fall toone person every time and that
person just leads off with youknow some kind of small shared
(25:18):
practice or devotional, you knowsomething that we've read in
our own devotional readings andgive some like questions for
thought, and then we go aroundand share along with like hey,
what, how is you know thissituation that we've been
praying for and how is yourspouse handling?
(25:39):
You know the current whatever,and and then we, we pray
together.
We also have a very activeWhatsApp thread so that in
between times that we meet,where we're sharing life and
talking and and keeping theconversation going that way,
(26:01):
yeah, so you meet how often?
Again?
Well, in the summer it's quiteall over the place.
We try to meet once a month inthe summer, and then in the
office, and then in the rest ofthe time it's every other week.
Okay, all right.
Margie (26:16):
So I think I'm guessing it's purely a guess that what
you're doing now is what hasinfluenced your upcoming
workshop on this, absolutelyyeah.
Michaele (26:29):
Yeah.
So the Holy Friendship webinaror workshop, whatever is offered
through the Wine Coop Centerfor Women in Leadership at
Nazarene Theological Seminary,we hope and we are planning to
broaden that and invite somemale colleagues and so that we
(26:50):
can also offer this as anon-gender specific offering.
But right now we havespecifically designed this
webinar and the accompanyingresource for women clergy.
Again, it's because that's whowe are particular to, the
(27:28):
there's something particular tothe challenges of women in
ministry that this seems likeabsolutely essential.
So that's where we started.
We also, you know, recognizethere's all kinds of.
We seen the need for this andwe long for people to
participate, but we can't keepadding individuals to our group.
(27:48):
That's just not how you do it.
Margie (27:50):
What's the, what's the you'd want?
Maybe what four?
Michaele (27:54):
five.
Yeah, I would say probably weoperated with five.
That's the largest group thatI've been a part of.
We operated with five.
That's the largest group thatI've been a part of and I think
that's probably max, mostlybecause maybe if you're in
person it's a little bitdifferent.
But organizing time schedulesgets challenging and then also
(28:20):
keeping your meeting time towhere everybody has equal
opportunity to share that that'sreally really important and the
more people you add, the harderit is to actually do that.
Margie (28:37):
So you're looking at maybe, how long does an average
or typical.
Michaele (28:41):
We try to meet an hour .
Sometimes, you know, if we'relike, hey, we haven't met in a
while and we really need alonger session, then we'll, all
you know, plan for an hour and ahalf or something.
We've also now met twice inperson for like a kind of
retreat all together and we'vedone that like, I think, two
(29:01):
days each time and that's beenreally, really good.
Margie (29:07):
Nice, nice.
Well, you had an era where youpractice the Renovare process
and then you had a time inbetween where you didn't have
anything, and then move to atime where now you you do again
have this.
Can you describe for us, then,what you felt during that era
(29:30):
where you had nothing?
Michaele (29:34):
I would say, while I didn't have anything that was
holy friendship, I had otherthings.
Anything that was holyfriendship, I had other things.
Um, that was the.
Those intervening years werethe height of, um, my toddler,
mommy phase and church plantingdays oh, that's busy.
(29:56):
It was very busy.
My husband was working on hisPhD.
It was very busy.
But in that busyness there was adifferent kind of holy
friendship that emerged from ourchurch planting pastor team
(30:17):
degree, you know, but a lot ofshared life, shared prayer,
shared visioning, so that I didnot feel like I was going it
alone.
But it just took on a differentshape during that season and
that's also the season that Istarted regular spiritual
direction direction.
(30:38):
So I think that you know again,it's not the same thing, but a
lot of what I it felt like.
There were things that I, for asmuch as I trusted and loved you
know, my initial holyfriendship group there were some
things that I I needed to bechallenged in and process
(31:03):
through.
That needed to happen at thenon-mutual level.
Right, it needed to be me andthe spiritual director really
wrestling some things out, orreally me and the and the Holy
spirit, you know, and wrestlingis probably not the right word,
because the spirit engages us sogently and invitationally, um,
(31:28):
but that seems like aninvitation to go into a deeper
place.
That prepared me for what wasnext.
So it wasn't like I had nothing, um, but it was just a very
different and I think, I thinkthat's an important, that's an
important thing for us to nameand give permission for the need
(31:50):
for different seasons and theway that, you know, our
relationships and our practicescan ebb and flow based on the
particularities of any givenseason, and that spirit is maybe
more okay with that than we are.
Margie (32:12):
Sure, If you had to name , then what?
Why we need this what would yousay?
Michaele (32:24):
Why we need?
Why we need?
Margie (32:27):
each other, why we need the holy friendship yeah.
Michaele (32:36):
Gosh, there's so many things that we need.
There's so many things that weneed.
I think it is really difficultas pastors to find spaces where
it's safe to be known.
Margie (32:56):
Yeah, I can say it this way we need a safe place where
we can be honest.
Yes, exactly.
Michaele (33:06):
And I would say that at the beginning of our holy
friendship, this kind of secondedition that I'm a part of now,
I don't know that you can't justmanufacture that safety in an
instant right.
It takes a level of trust thatgrows over time.
But over time, you know, I knowthat to those women I am not
(33:33):
Pastor Michaele LaVigne, churchPlanter Michaele LaVigne,
spiritual Director MichaeleLaVigne, conference Speaker
Michaele LaVinge, conferencespeaker Michaele LaVigne or
author Michaele LaVigne.
(34:04):
I'm not.
I don't have to put on a show,even on the days where I have
nothing good to show up with,you know.
And and then there's also thetimes that there have been for
each of us.
There's been seasons wheresomething so hard is happening
(34:31):
that it's hard to even say itout loud, let alone voice it to
another person.
And yet the incredible gift ofwalking with people who the
hardest stuff out loud, the badnews, the thing that feels like
(34:58):
the impossible situation.
They don't rush to fix it, theydon't judge you, they just sit
with you where you're at andcommit to praying, and pray with
wisdom, I mean, it's just andthen speak the truth that you
(35:21):
forget sometimes.
Right Like this is not what,what you are feeling and
thinking and all of the shamethat you're piling on yourself
right now.
That is not of God we have.
We have to have people that saythat to us For sure, for sure,
(35:43):
for sure.
(36:06):
In a post-gendered ormisogynistic society where, like
you know, we're past all ofthat, right, and the reality is,
and there are times when weneed, as women, to say to one
another you know, you're comingup against the principality and
powers of sexism, right, likeyou know, that's what this is,
(36:28):
yeah.
And then it's like, oh gosh,you're right.
Okay, now we can name it, nowwe can put that out there and
say, all right, then thatchanges how I handle things or
how we're going to pray aboutthis, and then giving wise and
(36:50):
bold counsel to one another,because being a woman in that
place of leadership is sochallenging, because you don't
want to play the gender cardright all the time.
Margie (37:01):
Right, you don't, but you don't want to play the
gender card right All the time.
Right, you don't, but you don'twant to always hesitate to kind
of go in that direction.
But I just had a conversationyesterday with somebody where I
said not only am I female, andif I complain to God, I'm like
this little yapping piece ofclay saying you know, you're
male, which then I'm telling Godyou made a mistake which I
(37:22):
can't do theologically oranything.
You know, maybe it's just it Isaid, and then I'm short.
So this is kind of you know,and you have to figure out how
to still function according towhat God is asking you to do,
regardless.
(37:48):
And that's why I'm thinking ofthe picture of Moses and his
father-in-law, jethro, comingand holding arms up, and you
need people to come around youand you need to be that.
You need to hold somebodyelse's arm up as well.
It's a real mutual kind of gift, really.
It is.
Michaele (38:04):
I also think of the story of Elizabeth and Mary, you
know, and I think this is sucha beautiful example of holy
friendship where, quiteliterally, one is giving witness
to what God is growing insideof the other.
(38:25):
Oh, I like that picture, ohyeah, and saying you're not
crazy, I see it too, and you aredeeply blessed in in this and
that mutual rejoicing,solidarity in the hardship of
(38:46):
people not understanding andthinking that you're crazy.
And you know, beingmarginalized and and knowing
that there's a hard, your favorin God's eyes also brings a
harder road ahead.
But, but you are not.
But, but there's another personwho knows what it's like, and I
(39:06):
think that is what we sodesperately need and what I've
been so deeply fortunate toreceive.
Margie (39:17):
Well, thank you for painting this beautiful picture
for us and for sure I will beadding your workshop link.
I'll get that from you and I'llput that in with the show notes
and I'll push it out to theplaces that I can push and
(39:43):
hopefully we will have morepeople to step in to this and
get to experience even a tasteof what you have presented to us
today would be amazing, yeah.
Michaele (39:57):
Well, I'm glad.
Yeah, well I'm glad.
(40:24):
I'll let you know too, becauseI think that the how is even
more it's not more importantsession preview or a kind of a
getting started sort of thing,similar to what I received in
the Renovare stuff.
But this is particular to womenclergy groups and gives us a
chance to set the tone for adifferent way of being together
(40:44):
and in conversation.
So that will come.
As you know, people who sign upfor the webinar will receive
that automatically with the costof the webinar.
Margie (40:56):
Right Great, and the cost of the webinar is Right
Great, and the cost of thewebinar is yeah, you were going
to ask me that.
Michaele (41:02):
I'm pretty sure it's $30.
Margie (41:04):
Okay, that's a deal.
Yeah, you can say $30-ish.
Yes, if it hasn't been nailedbecause we, you know record
these way in advance and youknow stuff.
But yeah, so it is.
Let's is, let's say, affordable.
Yeah, we're trying to make itso, yes, okay well, thank you so
(41:27):
much for being on the crabbypastor podcast.
I appreciate this so much, buthere's a question that I
frequently not always, because Idon't know.
It falls out of my headsometimes to even ask.
But, um, is there anythingabout life and ministry that
makes you crabby?
Michaele (41:48):
Yeah, yes.
Margie (41:52):
Would you have any particular item that you would
care to share?
Michaele (41:56):
Oh, mercy.
Well, I would say I mostly getcrabby these days in trying to
organize my schedule.
Oh, okay, it's the tedium ofadministrative stuff, not having
(42:19):
another brain to help keep mestraight.
Um, and I recently found whereI had made a scheduling error
and double booked myself.
And um can't be at a conferenceand a retreat at the same time,
and so that makes me crabby.
Margie (42:37):
Oh well, thank you so much for playing that game and
and sharing that with us,because we all get crabby?
I always ask this because at aconference, um, a gentleman came
up to my table and said,because it had a crab on it, and
said you know that stuff?
And he said I'm never crabby, Idon't know.
(42:58):
Like, I don't know what you'retalking about.
I'm never crabby, I don't know,like, I don't know what you're
talking about, I'm never crabby.
He didn't say I don't know whatyou're talking about, but he
just said I'm not crabby.
And I said well, why don't yougo find your spouse and bring
her here?
And he never came back.
Oh, surprise, but that's funny.
You know, when you're notserving in a pastoral capacity,
(43:19):
I feel like I'm a little moreemboldened to push at times.
So, anyway, um, that truth thatwe need to hear, I guess.
Well, thank you so much for umbeing on the podcast and and, uh
, blessings on your continuedministry in this new venture and
(43:41):
in all the ventures that youhave going right now.
Thank you, thank you so muchBlessings on you.
So how do the pieces of yourlife fit together?
Do they fit together well andthings are humming along just
fine, or are there some piecesthat are tight or absent or just
(44:06):
not fitting the bill?
This is your invitation to joinme in my glass workshop for a
video series, where I am goingto do a stained glass project
while I talk to you aboutsustainability and building
sustainability into your heartand into your life.
So I am going to be doing myart, which is a form of
(44:31):
self-care, and I'm going toinvite you into that space with
me and I'm going to chat.
I'm going to chat aboutself-care and I'm going to chat.
I'm going to chat aboutself-care and I'm going to show
you how I create, and there's anifty, nifty analogy Stained
glass seems to be a very goodmetaphor for what I want to talk
(44:51):
about.
So I'd love for you to join meto do that.
To opt in, I'll need you toemail me at crabbypastor at
gmailcom.
That's crabbypastor at gmailcom.
So you won't want to miss this.
You definitely won't want tomiss this.
So make a plan to join me inthe glass workshop.
(45:18):
Are you wondering whether yourfatigue, your lack of motivation
, your lack of interest isburnout Maybe.
I just wanted to let you knowthat I have a resource on the
website, margiebricecom.
(45:38):
That's B-R-Y-C-E.
Margiebicecom, that's b-r-y-c-e.
Margiebricecom, and it is aburnout questionnaire, free for
you to download, and kind ofself-assess and get a sense of
where you're at.
And there are questions thatnot only ask about what you're
going through but maybe howoften you're experiencing it and
(46:01):
that's kind of a key to whereyou might be, because you have
to know where you are in orderto chart a course forward.
And most pastors who experiencepastors and ministry leaders
who experience burnout rarelyknow that that's where they're
(46:23):
at until they're well into it.
And if you're unsure about thatlittle statistic, so far,
everybody that I've interviewedon this podcast who has
experienced burnout, when Iasked that kind of question,
they're like, yeah, I didn'tknow, that's where I was at.
So again, go to margiebricecom.
It's on the home page of thewebsite and you can get your
(46:49):
burnout questionnaire and kindof see where you're at.
Hey friends, the Crabby Pastorpodcast is sponsored by Bryce
Art Glass and you can find thaton Facebook.
I make stained glass, that'spart of my self-care and also by
(47:10):
Bryce Coaching, where I coachministry leaders and business
leaders, so the funds that Igenerate from coaching and from
making stained glass is what issupporting this podcast and I
will have opportunities for youto be a part of sponsoring me
(47:32):
and, as always, you can do thebuy me a cup of coffee thing in
the in the show notes.
But I will have some other waysthat you can be a part of
getting the word out about theimportance of healthy self-care
for ministry leaders.
Hey, thanks for listening.
(47:55):
It is my deep desire andpassion to champion issues of
sustainability in ministry andfor your life, so I'm here to
help.
I stepped back from pastoralministry and I feel called to
help ministry leaders create andcultivate sustainability in
(48:17):
their lives so that they can gothe distance with God and
whatever plans that God has foryou.
I would love to help, I wouldconsider it an honor and, in all
things, make sure you connectto these sustainability
practices you know, so that youdon't become the Crabby Pastor.
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