August 28, 2024 • 50 mins
This was such a fun conversation with renowned trauma expert Janyne McConnaughey... who joins us in this episode to learn more about how internal dialogue matters... a lot! Janyne shares invaluable insights from her professional work and personal healing journey, emphasizing the power of positive self-talk and the concept of metacognition—thinking about our thinking. This episode is designed to inspire better self-care and mindfulness in perceiving and speaking to ourselves, providing practical strategies to foster a more supportive internal narrative.
We also address the pervasive issue of negative self-talk, particularly in high-pressure environments like ministry. Reflecting on personal experiences, Janyne and I discuss how self-criticism can hinder performance and amplify the fear of judgment. We explore the importance of positive self-affirmation and the acceptance of imperfection (grace!), encouraging listeners to treat themselves with the same kindness they offer to friends.
Tune in for an episode packed with resources and encouragement for sustainable self-care practices
This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.
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Margie
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Margie (00:01):
Hey, there it's Margie Bryce, your host of the Crabby
Pastor podcast, where we talkabout all things sustainability,
whether it's sustainability inministry, in your personal life
and we acknowledge that thechurch is in a transitional time
, so we hit topics there toothat are going to stretch your
(00:22):
mind and the way you lead,especially how you lead yourself
, so that you don't become thecrabby pastor.
Hey, there it is Margie Brycewith the Crabby Pastor podcast,
and we talk about all thingsself-care here, in an effort to
(00:46):
be good stewards with the bodythat God has given to us so that
we may serve God's purposeswholeheartedly and be able to
present to God our best.
Just food and exercise, becauseyou can scroll through all the
podcasts and just see how oftenI talk about food and exercise,
(01:07):
even though I I attempt to workon that area of my life, always,
always.
But I see self care in a bigger, as a bigger picture.
And I am here today or Janine ishere with us today, I guess is
a better way to say that andwe're going to talk about the
(01:29):
way we talk to ourselves, orself-talk.
I know I can be very guilty ofthat and at times I've realized
that I've done it, and then Ithink that it's no big deal and
I move on to something else.
It's not a big deal at all andand I'm coming to a deeper
(01:50):
understanding that does make adifference.
It absolutely does make adifference.
So I'm here with JanineMcConaughey who has done a lot
of trauma related stuff.
That's a theological word,Janine, just so you know stuff.
They taught me that in seminary.
Janyne (02:12):
It's the one thing I retain, no hopefully I retain
they taught me in academics.
Margie (02:18):
I know.
So, janine, introduce us again.
I know you've been on thepodcast before, but go ahead and
introduce yourself and feelfree to share with us the most
recent things you're working on.
Janyne (02:31):
So, first of all, thank you for having me again.
When the note came through, Iwas like, oh, I love
conversations with Marty, so I'mhappy to be here today and I
really have taken a couplemonths to do some further
healing and kind of step backfrom a lot of things, and this
(02:53):
is actually my first podcastback into the game, and so we'll
see how this goes today.
But my latest endeavor is thatI have a sub stack that I'm
doing and it's a mixture of thework I do with survivors, the
(03:15):
work I do with religious trauma,the work I do with trauma-based
spiritual a and just thewriting that I do.
I wrote a book, hotelCandelabra and it's just a kind
of an allegory, and so sometimesit's just my writing.
(03:36):
So, anyway, so I am basicallygetting back into the game right
now, but my sub stack is myfavorite thing that I'm doing.
As far as my work right now.
Margie (03:46):
Yes, I just read your, your entry.
I think it was today.
It was really it's interestingstuff because it just again with
the stuff.
I apologize, but it was justreally interesting reading and
it really kind of makes youthink.
And that that to me, even whenI was in ministry, when somebody
(04:07):
said to me, wow, pastor, youreally made me think.
I felt like I'd hit a home run.
That was it for me.
I'm not sure what that saysabout me, but I'm sure something
.
But anyway, I feel like that'sa good thing because there needs
to be more thinking.
Today the thinking departmentsometimes seems to be underused
(04:30):
in some cases.
Janyne (04:31):
That's interesting because my students you know, I
taught at the college level for33 years and my students would
walk out of class and say yourclasses make my brain hurt.
I go oh good, good, good, thatmeans that you're thinking my
brain hurt.
I go oh good, good, good, thatmeans that you're thinking.
And so I generally take adifferent perspective than is
(04:53):
expected and so, yeah.
So, thank you for reading and,yeah, today's was interesting,
so it's a whole.
We're doing a whole.
My husband and I together aredoing a series on we Do Therapy
and when two trauma kids marriedeach other and all the lessons
that we've learned.
We celebrated our 45thanniversary last week and so,
(05:14):
yeah, so that's one of thethreads that will pick up again
in September.
Margie (05:21):
Well, we want to talk about why self-talk is so
important.
You want to start us off andI'm sure we'll get rolling.
Janyne (05:35):
That question is so big.
Margie (05:37):
I know, I know.
Did you ever know?
I used to be a newspaperreporter.
Janyne (05:44):
Oh no, I didn't know that.
Yeah, yeah, that's how I canask respectable questions.
Well, it's a respectablequestion.
So why is self-talk soimportant?
And I think that everythingthat we do is affected by what
we believe about ourselves.
(06:04):
That we do is affected by whatwe believe about ourselves.
And, of course, in my work thatI do with trauma.
You know, a traumatic event canhappen, but trauma is actually
the impact of what happens to usas a result of that traumatic
event and our ability to findsupport and process it and get
it out of our body and all thosekinds of things.
(06:25):
So when we talk about self-talk, then we are going to be
limited in everything we do bywhat we believe about ourselves.
And self-talk is basically whatwe believe about ourselves
coming out as something verbalin our head and I thought about,
(06:46):
I wanted, I wanted, I thoughtabout metacognition.
Okay, this is the educator I'mgoing to show up with cognition.
Okay, I love that word.
I may say it again a coupletimes.
Anyway, what it is is thinkingabout your thinking.
So, it's your own thoughts andyour own cognitive processes and
(07:07):
and, and that is what you'resupposed to do, and and so
self-talk is a form of that.
It's a form of thinking aboutyour thinking.
But if it's, if it's negativeabout yourself, then then you're
not really reflecting on it.
Margie (07:26):
So let me just see if I'm getting this, making sure
that I'm understanding.
So if I say boy, I really stinkat that, okay.
And then you say to yourselfwow, why did I say that about
myself?
That's thinking about yourthinking.
Yes, some people don't make itthat far, though to the why am I
(07:51):
saying that about myself?
Janyne (07:53):
Right.
And so metacognition allows youto think about what you just
said, because we always I don'tknow that there's a human being
alive that, like you're in themiddle of some.
I started going to the seniorcenter and doing yoga, you know,
and if there's any place thatnegative self-talk is going to
(08:14):
show up for me, it's in yoga,because I haven't gone for a
while and I'm like, why can't Ido this?
Right?
So, by the way, really reallyhealthy for me, it's the best
self-care that I that I canpossibly physically do, and so,
but but then I need to stop andthink well, why do I feel that
way about myself?
(08:35):
I said because I'm so concernedabout what other people are
thinking and I look around theroom and everybody else is just
focused on doing the, the pose,right, they're not looking at me
, they can't, they can't look atme and do what they're doing,
right.
And so it takes that extra step, that metacognition, to realize
why I'm saying those thingsabout myself during yoga, right,
(08:57):
and you're right, if you don'tgo there, then you, just you
begin to believe what you saidand you begin to be more and
more negative about yourself andthen you, it inhibits what
you're able to do, andespecially if we're talking
about ministry, if you'reconstantly telling yourself
you're terrible at it, thenyou're going to be terrible at
(09:19):
it.
Margie (09:19):
Right.
Isn't that funny?
I mean because would we thinkit's egotistical to say I am an
amazing pastor?
Nobody is better than me.
I mean, now we're wanderinginto egotistical a bit but I
think it does impact yourperformance.
(09:40):
I know for me, when I first gotup to preach, I would just
about break out in hives, myneck would get all red and
whatever.
And the more I did it and themore I stepped into it, I
started doing better.
But at one point what I said tomyself is put your head up,
your shoulders back and stepinto that thing that God has
(10:05):
called you to do.
I started saying that to myselfas I walked up to the podium,
up to the microphone and andthen, um, it made a difference.
Janyne (10:20):
Yes, yes, because if you're sitting there waiting
your turn and you're thinking,oh, am I going to say something
stupid when I get up there,Inevitably you will say
something stupid when you get upthere.
Margie (10:33):
Well, that's not a comfort, is it?
That's nothing.
Janyne (10:39):
I mean, you just are like no, you have to stop
yourself to go.
Why do I think that?
I think that because of and youcan go back and you usually
your subconscious will take youto the exact incident that you
just died with shame because ofit, and you get stuck there and
think it's going to happen againand again.
But yeah, and sometimes I meanand then like what, what is your
(11:03):
definition of doing somethingstupid, what every other human
does?
You know that you mess up yourwords or you say stuff right,
like why did I in that podcast,why did I keep saying stuff?
Margie (11:16):
oh, thanks, now I'll be thinking about that.
Janyne (11:20):
There is no, you were already thinking about it.
Margie (11:24):
No, I was done.
Thinking about it Really though, you know, feeling like you're
a failure and saying that toyourself, feeling like you are
worthless or I'm a bad pastor.
I mean, I've said that in jest.
I'm not serving actively inministry right now, but when I
(11:45):
did, at certain points I'd sayman, I'm a bad pastor.
You know, like they send you tothe bad pastor the sin bin,
like in hockey, or somethingTime out for you, but it does
change your moment in a reallyinteresting way, Do you think?
Janyne (12:07):
I think so, and when we say I am a human being who's
doing the very best job that Ican at being a pastor right now,
and I'm not perfect, and it isokay not to be perfect, then it
allows you the space to be ahuman being.
I think that sometimes we justbeat ourselves up for being
(12:31):
human, right and not perfect,and not perfect and no one is
and no one really expects anyoneelse to be either.
I mean, if we're really honest,we rather like it when other
(12:51):
people are human, because thenwe feel less pressure on
ourselves to meet some standardthat can never be met, to meet
some standard that can never bemet, and so, but I think, I
think that it does, it doesaffect us, it affected when you
would walk up having thosethoughts in your head as,
(13:12):
instead of thinking, you knowwhat I know, I know what's
important to say today and and Imay not say it perfectly, but
that's okay, because I don'thave to be perfect and it's okay
.
Margie (13:29):
Yeah, yeah.
And then tying that back intoour identity in Christ and what
we are called to do and to beabout, and stepping in.
I mean I think I'm pretty sure,I'm pretty sure that God knows
we're not perfect.
Janyne (13:47):
What do?
Margie (13:47):
you think, but at the same time, at the same time, the
stuff there I am again thestuff we say to ourselves about
ourselves are things thattypically we would not say to
other people.
Janyne (14:05):
Oh, we wouldn't, we would never, we would not say
those things to other people.
I mean your best friend, even,right, you know, we mean, and
I'm I'm looking across the waymy best friend lives One of my
best friends lives right nextdoor to me, you know and so I'm
looking across the way my bestfriend lives One of my best
friends lives right next door tome, you know and so I'm looking
over at it, into their yard,and I'm like I would stop her,
(14:27):
right, if she was saying that.
I would say wait, wait, wait,wait, wait.
What are we?
What are we saying?
What are we saying here?
And because it just hinders, ithinders relationships, it
hinders everything.
And but the thing is, is thatyou, you can't stop yourself.
I think that's an importantpoint to make.
(14:48):
Is that, is that we're huge?
That's another part of beinghuman.
Is that, when something, whenwe do something, immediately
shame starts to attack us andsay well, you did that.
There's just something horriblywrong with you and there's
something you know you're nevergoing to mount, you're going to,
you're worthless, you're nevergoing to.
You know you're always going tomake these mistakes, blah, blah
(15:10):
, blah, blah, blah.
You know.
And then shame sets in and thething to do is to be like oh, I
recognize you.
Shame, I recognize you.
I see you trying to takecontrol of my life and make me
believe things about myself thatis not true, and then you can
step back from it and say, no,what I believe about myself is
(15:33):
again I'm an imperfect humanwho's doing the very best job
that I can, especially inministry.
And I think you have to saythat a lot, because you're never
, you're never going to get itexactly right.
Margie (15:50):
And sometimes the sheep will tell you.
Right right, the sheep bitesometimes right.
Janyne (15:58):
Like as an author, I get so little pushback.
I mean, I've just been soblessed by that, I have amazing
supporters and people who followalong with my writing and
things.
But but I I have to know that Iwon't always get it right.
And somebody will ask me aquestion and sometimes it
creates and I'm like, oh wow, Iwonder why I said that in there
(16:22):
and I realized that there'ssomething that I need to go
process and think about more,and then I'll usually come back
and write something about that.
Right, so it's actuallyactually it's a learning
experience.
If we can be curious about whywe're saying the negative things
toward ourself that we do thenegative things toward ourself
that we do, then we can becurious about where did that
(16:44):
begin?
Where did that particularfeeling about myself begin?
And it's curiosity that turnsit into a learning experience
instead of a negative experience.
Margie (17:00):
Well, that's pretty powerful stuff If you can stop
yourself and do thinking aboutyour thinking thing and then if
you start to see a pattern ofthis, I think I'm starting to be
on the lookout for it.
You know saying, oh, I'museless or what do I think, why
(17:25):
do I think I'm great I guessimposter syndrome fits in here
somehow as well If you get tothe place where you just are
questioning the legitimacy ofyour call, of your ability to
serve.
I think one of the podcaststhat I get a lot of hits on is
(17:46):
one called Am I Enough?
That one seems to be prettypopular.
That seems to be a questionthat you know, and no, none of
us are enough for this task, andthat's why we have to be
relying on god, god's power, inour heart and in our lives and
(18:06):
as we serve.
Janyne (18:08):
But for some reason that still doesn't turn off the
ticket, you know I think that Idon't push back a little right
there, because I think that whenGod creates us, we are enough
right.
God doesn't create us and say,oh, I'm creating you is not
enough, you're probably notYou're not enough you never were
(18:35):
, you never will be right.
So I think, on one hand, I knowthat because we are human.
On one hand, I know that,because we are human, that we do
need to depend on God walkingwith us and giving us wisdom and
helping us to do the rightthing, but that needs to be
(19:02):
separated over here from who wewere created to be, which I
believe that you know and youcan push back to me too.
But I believe that we arecreated with the gifts and the
talents and everything that weneed to walk in partnership with
God and do the important workthat God is calling us to do.
And so and I think that I thinkthat that has been really
(19:24):
important to me, especiallybecause I spent so long not
doing what God gifted me to do,so I did not publish my first
book until I was 65.
Even though, even though, inwhen I was working on my
doctorate, they said you're,you're the best natural writer
(19:46):
in the cohort.
You, even though, when I did, Imean, self-studies at colleges
are like, not interestingwriting Right.
And and they, they said theself-study team said this is the
most enjoyable self-study we'veever read.
Then I I mean, and this was justrepeated to me over and over
(20:08):
again, and yet I didn't get it,because, because I didn't
believe I could really be anauthor and it took me months of
therapy and my therapist tryingto get me to understand that,
yes, this is your gift.
So where did that begin?
Right, because I was born withthat ability.
(20:29):
Yes, I honed it.
Yes, I, you know, worked on it.
Yes, I spent my whole lifewriting for other projects, etc.
But I was born to be a writerand and I had everything I
needed to do that.
Margie (20:46):
But I didn't believe in myself and uh yeah yeah, oh
there, and there was negativeself-talk in that.
You know, what do I think I'mdoing?
Why do I think I can do that?
Or?
Janyne (21:00):
right clear.
Up until the time I won twoawards on Tarama and the Fuse, I
was still doing that negative.
Well, you know, people arebuying it.
Yeah, maybe I say someimportant things.
And so the two awards that thebook won.
This is really funny.
The two awards are verydifferent from each other.
One of them is is just, is moreof a pure, pure writer, and the
(21:22):
other one is how the book isconstructed and how and so it.
It really is the publisher sideof it, and so you know, I mean
I, I have to put the content inthere.
The publisher has to work withthe content.
But it's more of a combination.
But by the time I'd won twoawards, I was like, okay, I give
up.
God, yes, you created an author.
Margie (21:43):
All right, I'm good Then you were able to give that kind
of self-talk to yourself.
Right, I am a fill in theblanket, I know.
Recently I went to somecoaching development work out at
a university, work out at auniversity and it was amazing
(22:09):
stuff in that we were learningto identify when people say I am
fill in the blank aboutthemselves, and then as coaches
that that is an important thingto listen for and then to follow
up on or really say more aboutthat or why, why do you say that
about yourself?
All of those kinds of things.
So that's kind of not a pointof Genesis, but it was a really
(22:32):
re-emphasis of that self-talkpiece.
Janyne (22:38):
Well, okay, so let's talk about a lot of the messages
that we give out, give get inthe church.
You know the idea which,theologically, I completely
agree with, disagree with.
Disagree with that.
We're worthless that we are.
You know the whole exegesis ofbeing wicked.
(23:02):
I mean that you need to go do awhole study on that one and so
forth.
But there's a there's aprevailing in some theological
camps.
There's a prevailing feelingthat you are and I and I it.
So part of that is theological.
So I did my dissertation on theview of the child from
innocence to non-innocence and Istudied all of the theological
(23:25):
trains that you know, all theway from back from Plato,
aristotle, through all the majortheologians, through all the
denominations, and what theirview of the child was, and it
ranged from innocent to bornsinful, completely sinful and
wicked, and you can trace thoseall the way down and how the
(23:48):
teaching methodologies andthings are chosen as a result of
that.
So I think we have to understandthat theologically, you have to
really dissect how that isaffecting you and how that is
playing into what you say aboutyourself, like the fear of pride
, right, like that came upactually a little bit earlier
(24:10):
and I was going to say something.
You know not to be prideful.
Well, there's a differencebetween owning what you're good
at and being prideful about whatyou're good at.
Okay, so if I'm prideful aboutbeing an author, then I'm.
I'm going to go say you know,I'm a better author than anyone
else.
(24:30):
I'm going to, you know, I'mgoing to say things like that If
I just own being an author, I'msaying I was born to be an
author.
I'm, I'm gifted as a writer andI can just own that.
And that isn't pride, that'sjust that's owning what I, the
gift that I was given.
Yeah, that's differentself-talk there and that is.
Margie (24:52):
That is definitely different self-talk, and I think
scripture says we should nothave a view that is too high of
ourselves, but we also shouldnot have a view that is too high
of ourselves, but we alsoshould not have a view that is
too low.
That is the Margie Greggprobably poor rendition of what
Paul says not to think toohighly or too lowly, but and
(25:15):
that's true, you know, notthinking too lowly either ties
in with what we're talking aboutin terms of how we speak to
ourselves.
I don't know, maybe we shouldgo, look in the mirror and have
to really face yourself whenyou're saying some of these
things.
I don't know if that would makeit better, worse or make you
(25:36):
think about what you're thinkingabout and saying about to
yourself a little more.
Janyne (25:41):
It's interesting because I'm speaking at a conference
this Saturday, one of the smallchurch conferences, and I did a
and anyone listening to thispodcast.
If you want a copy of this,I'll just email me and I'll give
it to you.
But I took the piece out ofTrauma in the Pews, which is a
trauma, informed spiritualpractice and I talk about.
(26:04):
I talk about self affirmation.
So one of the things that I sayis to walk up and stand in
front of the mirror and saythings to yourself in the mirror
and that is the absolutely likepositive statements to yourself
in the mirror is one of themost difficult things.
That for someone with a lowimage of themselves, for them to
(26:28):
do and and it's and and thatyou're right.
The balance is not to be lookingin the mirror and going you are
just the best.
Yeah, I know it's totallydifferent thing, but just to
look in the mirror and say youknow, I am loved by God, I was
created with gifts and talentsfor me to serve and make this
(26:51):
world a better place, and I canwork on those.
And let me tell you when I saythat I'm an author and that I'm
a gifted author, I know I cangive you the list of 10 things
that I cannot do, that I can'tdo well, right.
And the things that my editorscatch me on every single time,
(27:15):
right.
So it's not that I'm a perfectauthor.
I need editors and Grammarly.
You know, nothing goes outwithout going through Grammarly,
and so so there's just thisbalance that we have to find
that right there in the sweetspot in the middle, wherever we
accept both the things that were, that were created and gifted
(27:39):
in, the things that well yeah,oh yeah, I'm gonna do that in
everything.
Oh my gosh, I did it again.
And so um and I just, but I'mto the point where I just laugh
at it, like how many times willit take before?
And I do get better, you know,but if I start beating myself up
about it, it doesn't do anygood yeah, no, it doesn't.
Margie (27:59):
It doesn't, it is.
It is strangely like you'rebeing prophetic about yourself
when you live in that negativespace.
And it says things in scripturelike as a person thinks.
So they are Right, I mean.
Janyne (28:20):
I actually looked that up.
You said that because rightbefore I was sitting here and
I'm like, oh, I'm going actuallylooked that up.
That is so interesting.
You said that because rightbefore I was sitting here and
I'm like, oh, I'm gonna lookthat up.
And what's so interesting aboutthat is that that verse is about
who we show to others and whowe actually are like.
Like, if you look at the wholecontext around that it's it's
about someone who invites you totheir party and then they say
(28:42):
all sorts of good things aboutsomeone who invites you to their
party and then they say allsorts of good things about you,
but they're in their heartthey're thinking something
totally different, and that youshould be cautious about just
accepting all the nice thingsthat they say, because they may
not.
So I have never, ever looked atthe entire context around that
verse and and so what I realizedis that that we ourselves need
(29:06):
to be.
The flip side of that is thatwe need to be honest about who
we are, and being honest doesn't, for some reason we think,
being honest about ourselvesmean we have to be negative
about ourselves.
Margie (29:21):
Yeah, that sounds right.
Yeah, if I'm honest with myself, I'm going to say this, this
and this, and how I missed themark, whatever it is.
You know you do do that kind ofthing.
But I love that when scripturebears out our psychology.
But think about this, everybodythat pushes back on psychology
(29:46):
and I got called on it once forI preached a sermon and it was
using a sermon form that I hadactually been taught at NTS by
Dr Dan Boone you give thesociology of a situation and you
give the psychology of asituation.
Then you bring in the theology.
(30:06):
It's kind of an well, sincewhen is why we do the things we
do?
Somehow out of God's purview oror out of theological
(30:32):
discussion?
And then you run into verseslike, as a person thinks, so
they are, you know, and even howthe context works and
everything.
And I love it when thescripture uh, not validates
psychology, but it certainlyshows that God's aware of what
(30:53):
we do, things we do and how wework.
I mean, if God is the authorand constructor of us, I think
that that's probably somethingthat's important.
Janyne (31:07):
You know, over the past couple couple years, polyvagal
theory has become more prominentwhat is that?
Margie (31:17):
just going for the biggest word used on the podcast
I have done.
Janyne (31:22):
I have done metacognition and polyvagal
theory.
All right, okay, I can't can.
Margie (31:29):
See, there's my negative self-talk.
I can't keep up.
Janyne (31:34):
And so that's kind of what I do is I go and I study
all this and then I kind ofdistill it so I can distill
polyvacal.
And actually I have anotherfreebie that I gave away at a
conference, if anyone'sinterested in that one too.
I did it during the pandemicabout just breathe and okay.
So when you, when you arehaving a really stressful day,
(31:56):
and all of a sudden you sighLike I'm the best sire in the
whole world and and what I cameto realize is that we have a
nerve, that it's a multi, it'scalled the wandering nerve and
it runs all throughout our body.
It connects our brain to everypart of our body and it has two
(32:17):
parts.
I'm really simplifying, likeall my friends, like you made
that a little too simple, janine, okay so.
So it has two different partsand and you stay in balance by
those parts either slowing down,being at rest all of that is
(32:38):
controlled by this nerve in yourbody.
So what I began to understandis that that kind of breath is
how you, how your body, istrying to bring that nerve back
into balance.
Okay, so you, just you thinkabout it and after you sigh
really big like that, thenyou're kind of you feel like you
(32:59):
can keep moving and do whatever.
I had a place where I where Iwould walk through the building
and I actually have one of mysub stacks just on this, which
does a much better job than I'mdoing right now but when I would
get ready to walk into theadmin offices, I would sigh by
the secretary there every time,and one day she stopped me.
She said do you know, you sighevery time you walk by me and
(33:21):
I'm like, oh my gosh, I don'tknow why I do that, but now I do
Because I was trying to calm mynervous system.
It's the autonomic nervoussystem.
That is just how God created us.
That is how God created us, andwe have so many ways that we
(33:43):
can.
And actually the project I'mworking on, which is Trauma and
the Puce 2.0, is talking abouthow we can use the pause and how
we can understand how ourbodies work so that we calm
ourselves instead of going intothe negativity.
And so, anyway, I don't knowhow I got on that, but well, you
(34:04):
just wanted to say polyvagal,what?
polyvagal, what polyvagal theory?
I know.
So the.
So the man, the researcher whointroduced this to the world, um
, I got to introduce him to aseminar one day, on the line and
and before we were in the greenroom together and we talked
(34:25):
about grandchildren and you know, and I was just like, and I was
just like you know everythingthat I want to learn about this
and it, you know, and I was justlike, I was just like you know
everything that I want to learnabout this and it's so deep that
I, you know, I can't.
But then he was just a humanbeing and he calmed me, right,
just his very presence.
And I mean I was supposed to bethe person that was introducing
him and he was calming mebecause I was in the room with
(34:48):
him.
And I just think, I think abouthow our lack of understanding
about our bodies and the waysthat our body reacts to the
world around us reacts towhether we feel safe emotionally
(35:08):
or physically.
Children in the classroom whodo not feel safe cannot learn.
We cannot interact well withother people unless we are able
to help our body feel safe, andso the internal self-talk that
we're talking about is manytimes a result of that, of our
(35:31):
bodies being out of whack andnot being able to find the pause
and to calm ourselves, and so,and we can't live.
I posted.
I posted on Facebook, I don'tknow if you saw it.
I posted this is how we wantlife to be, and there's this
straight road that's just goingstraight off into the distance
and it's just flat and smooth,right, and this is how life
(35:54):
really is, and it was a rollercoaster and I think, when you
are under stress, when youneglect to slow down, to slow
down, I think that is when mybrain seems to fire a lot more
(36:14):
negativity.
Yes, I don't know.
Margie (36:23):
And that's because you feel unsafe in your own body as
soon as you emotionally orphysically or in the situation
you go toward the, the negativewhich is kind of built into us
as a protective measure, and andum, when a lion might eat us
and we feel right, right that,like I don't feel safe right
(36:44):
here because there's lionsaround and there's and and um,
the same reactions occur in ourbody even though we don't have
lions roaming across ourneighborhoods right now I mean,
I'm thinking about pastors and Iwas contemplating this and how
I'm going to roll this out, butallowing pastors to have
conversation about leadingpeople in this election cycle,
(37:11):
you know, and Because a lot ofpeople don't feel safe, you
don't feel safe.
Regardless, I'm not going to waxand wane political here at all,
but I'm saying people arehearing this and that and this
and that, and sometimes youdon't know what to think and
then you just don't feel safe.
And then, as a leader in afaith community, how do you
(37:35):
address that and how do you leadin the midst of that?
And I'd like to be able to haveconversation with ministry
leaders about that, because it'svery easy to go negative,
especially when there's a lot ofnegative around.
Janyne (37:52):
Right, right, and, and I you know, so some days I'll be
on Facebook.
I do, I do research on Facebook.
I'm just always watching seeinghow people are reacting to
those kinds of things, Causethat helps me as a writer.
But anyway, sometimes somebodywill post a meme and somebody
else will post a meme, and I'mlike like, wait a minute, they
are on completely polar oppositesides of this whole thing we're
(38:15):
dealing with, but they justposted the same thing to prove
their point right.
The point actually is is thatneither one of them feel safe,
and and all of the all of thefear-mongering is making it
worse, whether it's about thisside or about this side.
It is disrupting their abilityto stay calm in their own bodies
(38:40):
, and and then they go to thenegative, and then they and and
so, but it is.
It's all about feeling safe inour own body, but if we respond
to everything with negativeself-talk, then we don't feel
safe in our own head becausewe're being so, I mean okay,
(39:02):
that's a really scary thoughtfeeling safe in your own head,
or then you don't feel safe atall Right, like you're having a
really, really bad day and youjust need somebody to just be
like wow, that that's tough,that is a really tough day and
the only person around isyourself and you're going why
are you, why can't you right you?
(39:23):
so you're, you're the person youneed you, you, you are the one
you need in that moment.
Margie (39:31):
And negative self-talk does does not causes you to be
unsafe with yourself and that'sa, that's a, an equally big deal
and and um, I think I will savethat for our next conversation.
But the story you tell yourselfabout yourself, right, is an
(39:53):
extension of what we're talkingabout, because you can have the
facts in front of you, you know,and facts are things that you
see, things that you hear, butthen we always take what we hear
and what we see and we make anarrative about it and whether
that is something that you aretalking about, something
(40:17):
separate from yourself, but italso bears truth in what you're,
the story you're tellingyourself about yourself.
I bet there's a fancy big wordfor that too, that I don't know.
Janyne (40:37):
All right, I will.
I will try.
I don't always come up withthem.
I use them when I come up withthem, but if somebody asks me
what the word is, I'm done.
I have no idea, okay.
So one thing, one thing that Iwant to say about that, because
what you just said is soimportant, like the story we
tell about ourselves.
And where did that story begin?
Okay, the story we tell aboutourselves is buried inside of
(41:02):
the of whatever happened to usas children, and of course, I
talk about trauma, I talk aboutsexual abuse, I talk about all
these things.
You do not have to have thatkind of story to be affected by
something that happened to youas a child.
And so I I posted, I posted asub stack last Saturday about
(41:22):
moving, and the research saysthat if you move between the
ages of 10 and 15, if you movedthen you have a I'm going to
probably get the number rightbut like 41% greater chance of
being depressed as an adult.
And if you move twice or moreduring that period, you have a
(41:44):
68% chance that greater chancethat you will be suffer with
depression as an adult.
So what happens to you and forthe most part we just take for
granted yeah, we moved, you know, several times.
You know it was hard, I had togo to a new school, you know,
(42:04):
but we downplay that and don'trealize that those things
affected what we came to believeabout ourselves.
So sometimes, sometimes, when Isay something negative, I can
actually hear the person sayingit.
Okay, whether I can, whether itwas a teacher, whether it was
my mother, whether it was asibling, whether sometimes I can
(42:27):
actually know whose voice thatis being said in.
And so so those things are, andthat's where you have to be
curious once again.
You know what, what causes youto to be anxious in situations,
to feel clumsy, to feel all ofthose things.
And for me, it's generally howmany times I started a new
(42:51):
school?
Every year, from fifth grade to10th grade.
So for five solid years I wentto a new school every single
year, and my anxiety of goinginto new situations is just off
the charts sometimes.
And my survival skills that Iuse to walk into the room, own
(43:17):
the room and step into it andfind my place there is also a
phenomenal thing.
But before I'm able to do that,I die of anxiety.
And so these things are and I'mlike why?
You know you're going to do agood job once you get in there.
Why do you have to be sonegative about yourself?
Oh, because of what happened tome all those years.
Margie (43:40):
Right, and sometimes just acknowledging that yes
Moment is is enough to diffuseit.
Janyne (43:50):
Right, I mean I just stop and I give my younger self
a hug and say you know what Igot this one?
I'm not 10 years old anymore,going to a brand new school in a
new state.
No, I'm not.
I know how to do this, I can goin and I can do this, and so
(44:10):
yeah, instead of being upsetwith that younger part of me
that gets all anxious, they justneed a hug, because that was
hard, it was so hard, and soyeah, just to have compassion.
So there's another word theself-compassion.
Margie (44:27):
The self-compassion is a big deal.
This is a big deal because youare nicer to other people
frequently than you are toyourself.
Yes, you are.
Janyne (44:41):
We are.
Margie (44:41):
We all are.
Yes, we are.
And with that I'm going to wrapthis episode up, this episode
up, and I'm going to kind ofgive a little bit of a teaser
here for what we're going totalk about next, because we are
talking about stories we tellourselves.
But then I'd like to continueour conversation, janine, with
(45:04):
women and the stories we tellourselves, especially in the
religious environment.
Janyne (45:14):
Yes, important topic, absolutely, thank you.
Margie (45:23):
So how do the pieces of your life fit together?
Do they fit together well andthings are humming along just
fine, or are there some piecesthat are tight or absent or just
not fitting the bill?
This is your invitation to joinme in my glass workshop for a
(45:45):
video series, where I am goingto do a stained glass project
while I talk to you aboutsustainability and building
sustainability into your heartand into your life.
So I am going to be doing myart, which is a form of
self-care, and I'm going toinvite you into that space with
(46:08):
me and I'm going to chat.
I'm going to chat aboutself-care and I'm going to show
you how I create, and there's anifty, nifty analogy Stained
glass seems to be a very goodmetaphor for what I want to talk
about.
So I'd love for you to join me.
To do that, to opt in, I'llneed you to email me at
(46:31):
crabbypastor at gmailcom.
That's crabbypastor at gmailcom.
So you won't want to miss this.
You definitely won't want tomiss this.
So make a plan to join me inthe glass workshop.
Make a plan to join me in theglass workshop.
(46:57):
Are you wondering whether yourfatigue, your lack of motivation
, your lack of interest isburnout Maybe.
I just wanted to let you knowthat I have a resource on the
website, margiebricecom that'sb-r-y-c-e.
Margiebricecom and it is aburnout questionnaire free for
(47:21):
you to download and kind ofself-assess and get a sense of
where you're at.
There are questions that notonly ask about what you're going
through but maybe how oftenyou're experiencing it and
that's kind of a key to whereyou might be, because you have
to know where you are in orderto chart a course forward.
(47:44):
And most pastors who experiencepastors and ministry leaders
who experience burnout rarelyknow that that's where they're
at until they're well into it.
And if you're unsure about thatlittle statistic, so far,
everybody that I've interviewedon this podcast who has
(48:07):
experienced burnout, when I askthat kind of question, they're
like, yeah, I didn't know that'swhere I was at.
So again, go to margiebricecomit's on the home page of the
website and you can get yourburnout questionnaire and kind
of see where you're at.
(48:29):
Hey friends, the Crabby Pastorpodcast is sponsored by Bryce
Art Glass and you can find thaton Facebook.
I make stained glass as part ofmy self-care and also by Bryce
Coaching, where I coach ministryleaders and business leaders,
and so the funds that I generatefrom coaching and from making
(48:54):
stained glass is what issupporting this podcast, and I
will have opportunities for youto be a part of sponsoring me
and, as always, you can do thebuy me a cup of coffee thing in
the in the show notes.
But I will have some other waysthat you can be a part of
(49:15):
getting the word out about theimportance of healthy self care
for ministry leaders.
Hey, thanks for listening.
It is my deep desire andpassion to champion issues of
sustainability in ministry andfor your life, so I'm here to
(49:39):
help.
I stepped back from pastoralministry and I feel called to
help ministry leaders create andcultivate sustainability in
their lives so that they can gothe distance with God and
whatever plans that God has foryou.
I would love to help, I wouldconsider it an honor and, in all
(50:03):
things, make sure you connectto these sustainability
practices you know so that youdon't become the Crabby Pastor.
Hey, there it's Margie Bryce, your host of the Crabby
Pastor podcast, where we talkabout all things sustainability,
whether it's sustainability inministry, in your personal life
and we acknowledge that thechurch is in a transitional time
, so we hit topics there toothat are going to stretch your
(00:22):
mind and the way you lead,especially how you lead yourself
, so that you don't become thecrabby pastor.
Hey, there it is Margie Brycewith the Crabby Pastor podcast,
and we talk about all thingsself-care here, in an effort to
(00:46):
be good stewards with the bodythat God has given to us so that
we may serve God's purposeswholeheartedly and be able to
present to God our best.
Just food and exercise, becauseyou can scroll through all the
podcasts and just see how oftenI talk about food and exercise,
(01:07):
even though I I attempt to workon that area of my life, always,
always.
But I see self care in a bigger, as a bigger picture.
And I am here today or Janine ishere with us today, I guess is
a better way to say that andwe're going to talk about the
(01:29):
way we talk to ourselves, orself-talk.
I know I can be very guilty ofthat and at times I've realized
that I've done it, and then Ithink that it's no big deal and
I move on to something else.
It's not a big deal at all andand I'm coming to a deeper
(01:50):
understanding that does make adifference.
It absolutely does make adifference.
So I'm here with JanineMcConaughey who has done a lot
of trauma related stuff.
That's a theological word,Janine, just so you know stuff.
They taught me that in seminary.
Janyne (02:12):
It's the one thing I retain, no hopefully I retain
they taught me in academics.
Margie (02:18):
I know.
So, janine, introduce us again.
I know you've been on thepodcast before, but go ahead and
introduce yourself and feelfree to share with us the most
recent things you're working on.
Janyne (02:31):
So, first of all, thank you for having me again.
When the note came through, Iwas like, oh, I love
conversations with Marty, so I'mhappy to be here today and I
really have taken a couplemonths to do some further
healing and kind of step backfrom a lot of things, and this
(02:53):
is actually my first podcastback into the game, and so we'll
see how this goes today.
But my latest endeavor is thatI have a sub stack that I'm
doing and it's a mixture of thework I do with survivors, the
(03:15):
work I do with religious trauma,the work I do with trauma-based
spiritual a and just thewriting that I do.
I wrote a book, hotelCandelabra and it's just a kind
of an allegory, and so sometimesit's just my writing.
(03:36):
So, anyway, so I am basicallygetting back into the game right
now, but my sub stack is myfavorite thing that I'm doing.
As far as my work right now.
Margie (03:46):
Yes, I just read your, your entry.
I think it was today.
It was really it's interestingstuff because it just again with
the stuff.
I apologize, but it was justreally interesting reading and
it really kind of makes youthink.
And that that to me, even whenI was in ministry, when somebody
(04:07):
said to me, wow, pastor, youreally made me think.
I felt like I'd hit a home run.
That was it for me.
I'm not sure what that saysabout me, but I'm sure something
.
But anyway, I feel like that'sa good thing because there needs
to be more thinking.
Today the thinking departmentsometimes seems to be underused
(04:30):
in some cases.
Janyne (04:31):
That's interesting because my students you know, I
taught at the college level for33 years and my students would
walk out of class and say yourclasses make my brain hurt.
I go oh good, good, good, thatmeans that you're thinking my
brain hurt.
I go oh good, good, good, thatmeans that you're thinking.
And so I generally take adifferent perspective than is
(04:53):
expected and so, yeah.
So, thank you for reading and,yeah, today's was interesting,
so it's a whole.
We're doing a whole.
My husband and I together aredoing a series on we Do Therapy
and when two trauma kids marriedeach other and all the lessons
that we've learned.
We celebrated our 45thanniversary last week and so,
(05:14):
yeah, so that's one of thethreads that will pick up again
in September.
Margie (05:21):
Well, we want to talk about why self-talk is so
important.
You want to start us off andI'm sure we'll get rolling.
Janyne (05:35):
That question is so big.
Margie (05:37):
I know, I know.
Did you ever know?
I used to be a newspaperreporter.
Janyne (05:44):
Oh no, I didn't know that.
Yeah, yeah, that's how I canask respectable questions.
Well, it's a respectablequestion.
So why is self-talk soimportant?
And I think that everythingthat we do is affected by what
we believe about ourselves.
(06:04):
That we do is affected by whatwe believe about ourselves.
And, of course, in my work thatI do with trauma.
You know, a traumatic event canhappen, but trauma is actually
the impact of what happens to usas a result of that traumatic
event and our ability to findsupport and process it and get
it out of our body and all thosekinds of things.
(06:25):
So when we talk about self-talk, then we are going to be
limited in everything we do bywhat we believe about ourselves.
And self-talk is basically whatwe believe about ourselves
coming out as something verbalin our head and I thought about,
(06:46):
I wanted, I wanted, I thoughtabout metacognition.
Okay, this is the educator I'mgoing to show up with cognition.
Okay, I love that word.
I may say it again a coupletimes.
Anyway, what it is is thinkingabout your thinking.
So, it's your own thoughts andyour own cognitive processes and
(07:07):
and, and that is what you'resupposed to do, and and so
self-talk is a form of that.
It's a form of thinking aboutyour thinking.
But if it's, if it's negativeabout yourself, then then you're
not really reflecting on it.
Margie (07:26):
So let me just see if I'm getting this, making sure
that I'm understanding.
So if I say boy, I really stinkat that, okay.
And then you say to yourselfwow, why did I say that about
myself?
That's thinking about yourthinking.
Yes, some people don't make itthat far, though to the why am I
(07:51):
saying that about myself?
Janyne (07:53):
Right.
And so metacognition allows youto think about what you just
said, because we always I don'tknow that there's a human being
alive that, like you're in themiddle of some.
I started going to the seniorcenter and doing yoga, you know,
and if there's any place thatnegative self-talk is going to
(08:14):
show up for me, it's in yoga,because I haven't gone for a
while and I'm like, why can't Ido this?
Right?
So, by the way, really reallyhealthy for me, it's the best
self-care that I that I canpossibly physically do, and so,
but but then I need to stop andthink well, why do I feel that
way about myself?
(08:35):
I said because I'm so concernedabout what other people are
thinking and I look around theroom and everybody else is just
focused on doing the, the pose,right, they're not looking at me
, they can't, they can't look atme and do what they're doing,
right.
And so it takes that extra step, that metacognition, to realize
why I'm saying those thingsabout myself during yoga, right,
(08:57):
and you're right, if you don'tgo there, then you, just you
begin to believe what you saidand you begin to be more and
more negative about yourself andthen you, it inhibits what
you're able to do, andespecially if we're talking
about ministry, if you'reconstantly telling yourself
you're terrible at it, thenyou're going to be terrible at
(09:19):
it.
Margie (09:19):
Right.
Isn't that funny?
I mean because would we thinkit's egotistical to say I am an
amazing pastor?
Nobody is better than me.
I mean, now we're wanderinginto egotistical a bit but I
think it does impact yourperformance.
(09:40):
I know for me, when I first gotup to preach, I would just
about break out in hives, myneck would get all red and
whatever.
And the more I did it and themore I stepped into it, I
started doing better.
But at one point what I said tomyself is put your head up,
your shoulders back and stepinto that thing that God has
(10:05):
called you to do.
I started saying that to myselfas I walked up to the podium,
up to the microphone and andthen, um, it made a difference.
Janyne (10:20):
Yes, yes, because if you're sitting there waiting
your turn and you're thinking,oh, am I going to say something
stupid when I get up there,Inevitably you will say
something stupid when you get upthere.
Margie (10:33):
Well, that's not a comfort, is it?
That's nothing.
Janyne (10:39):
I mean, you just are like no, you have to stop
yourself to go.
Why do I think that?
I think that because of and youcan go back and you usually
your subconscious will take youto the exact incident that you
just died with shame because ofit, and you get stuck there and
think it's going to happen againand again.
But yeah, and sometimes I meanand then like what, what is your
(11:03):
definition of doing somethingstupid, what every other human
does?
You know that you mess up yourwords or you say stuff right,
like why did I in that podcast,why did I keep saying stuff?
Margie (11:16):
oh, thanks, now I'll be thinking about that.
Janyne (11:20):
There is no, you were already thinking about it.
Margie (11:24):
No, I was done.
Thinking about it Really though, you know, feeling like you're
a failure and saying that toyourself, feeling like you are
worthless or I'm a bad pastor.
I mean, I've said that in jest.
I'm not serving actively inministry right now, but when I
(11:45):
did, at certain points I'd sayman, I'm a bad pastor.
You know, like they send you tothe bad pastor the sin bin,
like in hockey, or somethingTime out for you, but it does
change your moment in a reallyinteresting way, Do you think?
Janyne (12:07):
I think so, and when we say I am a human being who's
doing the very best job that Ican at being a pastor right now,
and I'm not perfect, and it isokay not to be perfect, then it
allows you the space to be ahuman being.
I think that sometimes we justbeat ourselves up for being
(12:31):
human, right and not perfect,and not perfect and no one is
and no one really expects anyoneelse to be either.
I mean, if we're really honest,we rather like it when other
(12:51):
people are human, because thenwe feel less pressure on
ourselves to meet some standardthat can never be met, to meet
some standard that can never bemet, and so, but I think, I
think that it does, it doesaffect us, it affected when you
would walk up having thosethoughts in your head as,
(13:12):
instead of thinking, you knowwhat I know, I know what's
important to say today and and Imay not say it perfectly, but
that's okay, because I don'thave to be perfect and it's okay
.
Margie (13:29):
Yeah, yeah.
And then tying that back intoour identity in Christ and what
we are called to do and to beabout, and stepping in.
I mean I think I'm pretty sure,I'm pretty sure that God knows
we're not perfect.
Janyne (13:47):
What do?
Margie (13:47):
you think, but at the same time, at the same time, the
stuff there I am again thestuff we say to ourselves about
ourselves are things thattypically we would not say to
other people.
Janyne (14:05):
Oh, we wouldn't, we would never, we would not say
those things to other people.
I mean your best friend, even,right, you know, we mean, and
I'm I'm looking across the waymy best friend lives One of my
best friends lives right nextdoor to me, you know and so I'm
looking across the way my bestfriend lives One of my best
friends lives right next door tome, you know and so I'm looking
over at it, into their yard,and I'm like I would stop her,
(14:27):
right, if she was saying that.
I would say wait, wait, wait,wait, wait.
What are we?
What are we saying?
What are we saying here?
And because it just hinders, ithinders relationships, it
hinders everything.
And but the thing is, is thatyou, you can't stop yourself.
I think that's an importantpoint to make.
(14:48):
Is that, is that we're huge?
That's another part of beinghuman.
Is that, when something, whenwe do something, immediately
shame starts to attack us andsay well, you did that.
There's just something horriblywrong with you and there's
something you know you're nevergoing to mount, you're going to,
you're worthless, you're nevergoing to.
You know you're always going tomake these mistakes, blah, blah
(15:10):
, blah, blah, blah.
You know.
And then shame sets in and thething to do is to be like oh, I
recognize you.
Shame, I recognize you.
I see you trying to takecontrol of my life and make me
believe things about myself thatis not true, and then you can
step back from it and say, no,what I believe about myself is
(15:33):
again I'm an imperfect humanwho's doing the very best job
that I can, especially inministry.
And I think you have to saythat a lot, because you're never
, you're never going to get itexactly right.
Margie (15:50):
And sometimes the sheep will tell you.
Right right, the sheep bitesometimes right.
Janyne (15:58):
Like as an author, I get so little pushback.
I mean, I've just been soblessed by that, I have amazing
supporters and people who followalong with my writing and
things.
But but I I have to know that Iwon't always get it right.
And somebody will ask me aquestion and sometimes it
creates and I'm like, oh wow, Iwonder why I said that in there
(16:22):
and I realized that there'ssomething that I need to go
process and think about more,and then I'll usually come back
and write something about that.
Right, so it's actuallyactually it's a learning
experience.
If we can be curious about whywe're saying the negative things
toward ourself that we do thenegative things toward ourself
that we do, then we can becurious about where did that
(16:44):
begin?
Where did that particularfeeling about myself begin?
And it's curiosity that turnsit into a learning experience
instead of a negative experience.
Margie (17:00):
Well, that's pretty powerful stuff If you can stop
yourself and do thinking aboutyour thinking thing and then if
you start to see a pattern ofthis, I think I'm starting to be
on the lookout for it.
You know saying, oh, I'museless or what do I think, why
(17:25):
do I think I'm great I guessimposter syndrome fits in here
somehow as well If you get tothe place where you just are
questioning the legitimacy ofyour call, of your ability to
serve.
I think one of the podcaststhat I get a lot of hits on is
(17:46):
one called Am I Enough?
That one seems to be prettypopular.
That seems to be a questionthat you know, and no, none of
us are enough for this task, andthat's why we have to be
relying on god, god's power, inour heart and in our lives and
(18:06):
as we serve.
Janyne (18:08):
But for some reason that still doesn't turn off the
ticket, you know I think that Idon't push back a little right
there, because I think that whenGod creates us, we are enough
right.
God doesn't create us and say,oh, I'm creating you is not
enough, you're probably notYou're not enough you never were
(18:35):
, you never will be right.
So I think, on one hand, I knowthat because we are human.
On one hand, I know that,because we are human, that we do
need to depend on God walkingwith us and giving us wisdom and
helping us to do the rightthing, but that needs to be
(19:02):
separated over here from who wewere created to be, which I
believe that you know and youcan push back to me too.
But I believe that we arecreated with the gifts and the
talents and everything that weneed to walk in partnership with
God and do the important workthat God is calling us to do.
And so and I think that I thinkthat that has been really
(19:24):
important to me, especiallybecause I spent so long not
doing what God gifted me to do,so I did not publish my first
book until I was 65.
Even though, even though, inwhen I was working on my
doctorate, they said you're,you're the best natural writer
(19:46):
in the cohort.
You, even though, when I did, Imean, self-studies at colleges
are like, not interestingwriting Right.
And and they, they said theself-study team said this is the
most enjoyable self-study we'veever read.
Then I I mean, and this was justrepeated to me over and over
(20:08):
again, and yet I didn't get it,because, because I didn't
believe I could really be anauthor and it took me months of
therapy and my therapist tryingto get me to understand that,
yes, this is your gift.
So where did that begin?
Right, because I was born withthat ability.
(20:29):
Yes, I honed it.
Yes, I, you know, worked on it.
Yes, I spent my whole lifewriting for other projects, etc.
But I was born to be a writerand and I had everything I
needed to do that.
Margie (20:46):
But I didn't believe in myself and uh yeah yeah, oh
there, and there was negativeself-talk in that.
You know, what do I think I'mdoing?
Why do I think I can do that?
Or?
Janyne (21:00):
right clear.
Up until the time I won twoawards on Tarama and the Fuse, I
was still doing that negative.
Well, you know, people arebuying it.
Yeah, maybe I say someimportant things.
And so the two awards that thebook won.
This is really funny.
The two awards are verydifferent from each other.
One of them is is just, is moreof a pure, pure writer, and the
(21:22):
other one is how the book isconstructed and how and so it.
It really is the publisher sideof it, and so you know, I mean
I, I have to put the content inthere.
The publisher has to work withthe content.
But it's more of a combination.
But by the time I'd won twoawards, I was like, okay, I give
up.
God, yes, you created an author.
Margie (21:43):
All right, I'm good Then you were able to give that kind
of self-talk to yourself.
Right, I am a fill in theblanket, I know.
Recently I went to somecoaching development work out at
a university, work out at auniversity and it was amazing
(22:09):
stuff in that we were learningto identify when people say I am
fill in the blank aboutthemselves, and then as coaches
that that is an important thingto listen for and then to follow
up on or really say more aboutthat or why, why do you say that
about yourself?
All of those kinds of things.
So that's kind of not a pointof Genesis, but it was a really
(22:32):
re-emphasis of that self-talkpiece.
Janyne (22:38):
Well, okay, so let's talk about a lot of the messages
that we give out, give get inthe church.
You know the idea which,theologically, I completely
agree with, disagree with.
Disagree with that.
We're worthless that we are.
You know the whole exegesis ofbeing wicked.
(23:02):
I mean that you need to go do awhole study on that one and so
forth.
But there's a there's aprevailing in some theological
camps.
There's a prevailing feelingthat you are and I and I it.
So part of that is theological.
So I did my dissertation on theview of the child from
innocence to non-innocence and Istudied all of the theological
(23:25):
trains that you know, all theway from back from Plato,
aristotle, through all the majortheologians, through all the
denominations, and what theirview of the child was, and it
ranged from innocent to bornsinful, completely sinful and
wicked, and you can trace thoseall the way down and how the
(23:48):
teaching methodologies andthings are chosen as a result of
that.
So I think we have to understandthat theologically, you have to
really dissect how that isaffecting you and how that is
playing into what you say aboutyourself, like the fear of pride
, right, like that came upactually a little bit earlier
(24:10):
and I was going to say something.
You know not to be prideful.
Well, there's a differencebetween owning what you're good
at and being prideful about whatyou're good at.
Okay, so if I'm prideful aboutbeing an author, then I'm.
I'm going to go say you know,I'm a better author than anyone
else.
(24:30):
I'm going to, you know, I'mgoing to say things like that If
I just own being an author, I'msaying I was born to be an
author.
I'm, I'm gifted as a writer andI can just own that.
And that isn't pride, that'sjust that's owning what I, the
gift that I was given.
Yeah, that's differentself-talk there and that is.
Margie (24:52):
That is definitely different self-talk, and I think
scripture says we should nothave a view that is too high of
ourselves, but we also shouldnot have a view that is too high
of ourselves, but we alsoshould not have a view that is
too low.
That is the Margie Greggprobably poor rendition of what
Paul says not to think toohighly or too lowly, but and
(25:15):
that's true, you know, notthinking too lowly either ties
in with what we're talking aboutin terms of how we speak to
ourselves.
I don't know, maybe we shouldgo, look in the mirror and have
to really face yourself whenyou're saying some of these
things.
I don't know if that would makeit better, worse or make you
(25:36):
think about what you're thinkingabout and saying about to
yourself a little more.
Janyne (25:41):
It's interesting because I'm speaking at a conference
this Saturday, one of the smallchurch conferences, and I did a
and anyone listening to thispodcast.
If you want a copy of this,I'll just email me and I'll give
it to you.
But I took the piece out ofTrauma in the Pews, which is a
trauma, informed spiritualpractice and I talk about.
(26:04):
I talk about self affirmation.
So one of the things that I sayis to walk up and stand in
front of the mirror and saythings to yourself in the mirror
and that is the absolutely likepositive statements to yourself
in the mirror is one of themost difficult things.
That for someone with a lowimage of themselves, for them to
(26:28):
do and and it's and and thatyou're right.
The balance is not to be lookingin the mirror and going you are
just the best.
Yeah, I know it's totallydifferent thing, but just to
look in the mirror and say youknow, I am loved by God, I was
created with gifts and talentsfor me to serve and make this
(26:51):
world a better place, and I canwork on those.
And let me tell you when I saythat I'm an author and that I'm
a gifted author, I know I cangive you the list of 10 things
that I cannot do, that I can'tdo well, right.
And the things that my editorscatch me on every single time,
(27:15):
right.
So it's not that I'm a perfectauthor.
I need editors and Grammarly.
You know, nothing goes outwithout going through Grammarly,
and so so there's just thisbalance that we have to find
that right there in the sweetspot in the middle, wherever we
accept both the things that were, that were created and gifted
(27:39):
in, the things that well yeah,oh yeah, I'm gonna do that in
everything.
Oh my gosh, I did it again.
And so um and I just, but I'mto the point where I just laugh
at it, like how many times willit take before?
And I do get better, you know,but if I start beating myself up
about it, it doesn't do anygood yeah, no, it doesn't.
Margie (27:59):
It doesn't, it is.
It is strangely like you'rebeing prophetic about yourself
when you live in that negativespace.
And it says things in scripturelike as a person thinks.
So they are Right, I mean.
Janyne (28:20):
I actually looked that up.
You said that because rightbefore I was sitting here and
I'm like, oh, I'm going actuallylooked that up.
That is so interesting.
You said that because rightbefore I was sitting here and
I'm like, oh, I'm gonna lookthat up.
And what's so interesting aboutthat is that that verse is about
who we show to others and whowe actually are like.
Like, if you look at the wholecontext around that it's it's
about someone who invites you totheir party and then they say
(28:42):
all sorts of good things aboutsomeone who invites you to their
party and then they say allsorts of good things about you,
but they're in their heartthey're thinking something
totally different, and that youshould be cautious about just
accepting all the nice thingsthat they say, because they may
not.
So I have never, ever looked atthe entire context around that
verse and and so what I realizedis that that we ourselves need
(29:06):
to be.
The flip side of that is thatwe need to be honest about who
we are, and being honest doesn't, for some reason we think,
being honest about ourselvesmean we have to be negative
about ourselves.
Margie (29:21):
Yeah, that sounds right.
Yeah, if I'm honest with myself, I'm going to say this, this
and this, and how I missed themark, whatever it is.
You know you do do that kind ofthing.
But I love that when scripturebears out our psychology.
But think about this, everybodythat pushes back on psychology
(29:46):
and I got called on it once forI preached a sermon and it was
using a sermon form that I hadactually been taught at NTS by
Dr Dan Boone you give thesociology of a situation and you
give the psychology of asituation.
Then you bring in the theology.
(30:06):
It's kind of an well, sincewhen is why we do the things we
do?
Somehow out of God's purview oror out of theological
(30:32):
discussion?
And then you run into verseslike, as a person thinks, so
they are, you know, and even howthe context works and
everything.
And I love it when thescripture uh, not validates
psychology, but it certainlyshows that God's aware of what
(30:53):
we do, things we do and how wework.
I mean, if God is the authorand constructor of us, I think
that that's probably somethingthat's important.
Janyne (31:07):
You know, over the past couple couple years, polyvagal
theory has become more prominentwhat is that?
Margie (31:17):
just going for the biggest word used on the podcast
I have done.
Janyne (31:22):
I have done metacognition and polyvagal
theory.
All right, okay, I can't can.
Margie (31:29):
See, there's my negative self-talk.
I can't keep up.
Janyne (31:34):
And so that's kind of what I do is I go and I study
all this and then I kind ofdistill it so I can distill
polyvacal.
And actually I have anotherfreebie that I gave away at a
conference, if anyone'sinterested in that one too.
I did it during the pandemicabout just breathe and okay.
So when you, when you arehaving a really stressful day,
(31:56):
and all of a sudden you sighLike I'm the best sire in the
whole world and and what I cameto realize is that we have a
nerve, that it's a multi, it'scalled the wandering nerve and
it runs all throughout our body.
It connects our brain to everypart of our body and it has two
(32:17):
parts.
I'm really simplifying, likeall my friends, like you made
that a little too simple, janine, okay so.
So it has two different partsand and you stay in balance by
those parts either slowing down,being at rest all of that is
(32:38):
controlled by this nerve in yourbody.
So what I began to understandis that that kind of breath is
how you, how your body, istrying to bring that nerve back
into balance.
Okay, so you, just you thinkabout it and after you sigh
really big like that, thenyou're kind of you feel like you
(32:59):
can keep moving and do whatever.
I had a place where I where Iwould walk through the building
and I actually have one of mysub stacks just on this, which
does a much better job than I'mdoing right now but when I would
get ready to walk into theadmin offices, I would sigh by
the secretary there every time,and one day she stopped me.
She said do you know, you sighevery time you walk by me and
(33:21):
I'm like, oh my gosh, I don'tknow why I do that, but now I do
Because I was trying to calm mynervous system.
It's the autonomic nervoussystem.
That is just how God created us.
That is how God created us, andwe have so many ways that we
(33:43):
can.
And actually the project I'mworking on, which is Trauma and
the Puce 2.0, is talking abouthow we can use the pause and how
we can understand how ourbodies work so that we calm
ourselves instead of going intothe negativity.
And so, anyway, I don't knowhow I got on that, but well, you
(34:04):
just wanted to say polyvagal,what?
polyvagal, what polyvagal theory?
I know.
So the.
So the man, the researcher whointroduced this to the world, um
, I got to introduce him to aseminar one day, on the line and
and before we were in the greenroom together and we talked
(34:25):
about grandchildren and you know, and I was just like, and I was
just like you know everythingthat I want to learn about this
and it, you know, and I was justlike, I was just like you know
everything that I want to learnabout this and it's so deep that
I, you know, I can't.
But then he was just a humanbeing and he calmed me, right,
just his very presence.
And I mean I was supposed to bethe person that was introducing
him and he was calming mebecause I was in the room with
(34:48):
him.
And I just think, I think abouthow our lack of understanding
about our bodies and the waysthat our body reacts to the
world around us reacts towhether we feel safe emotionally
(35:08):
or physically.
Children in the classroom whodo not feel safe cannot learn.
We cannot interact well withother people unless we are able
to help our body feel safe, andso the internal self-talk that
we're talking about is manytimes a result of that, of our
(35:31):
bodies being out of whack andnot being able to find the pause
and to calm ourselves, and so,and we can't live.
I posted.
I posted on Facebook, I don'tknow if you saw it.
I posted this is how we wantlife to be, and there's this
straight road that's just goingstraight off into the distance
and it's just flat and smooth,right, and this is how life
(35:54):
really is, and it was a rollercoaster and I think, when you
are under stress, when youneglect to slow down, to slow
down, I think that is when mybrain seems to fire a lot more
(36:14):
negativity.
Yes, I don't know.
Margie (36:23):
And that's because you feel unsafe in your own body as
soon as you emotionally orphysically or in the situation
you go toward the, the negativewhich is kind of built into us
as a protective measure, and andum, when a lion might eat us
and we feel right, right that,like I don't feel safe right
(36:44):
here because there's lionsaround and there's and and um,
the same reactions occur in ourbody even though we don't have
lions roaming across ourneighborhoods right now I mean,
I'm thinking about pastors and Iwas contemplating this and how
I'm going to roll this out, butallowing pastors to have
conversation about leadingpeople in this election cycle,
(37:11):
you know, and Because a lot ofpeople don't feel safe, you
don't feel safe.
Regardless, I'm not going to waxand wane political here at all,
but I'm saying people arehearing this and that and this
and that, and sometimes youdon't know what to think and
then you just don't feel safe.
And then, as a leader in afaith community, how do you
(37:35):
address that and how do you leadin the midst of that?
And I'd like to be able to haveconversation with ministry
leaders about that, because it'svery easy to go negative,
especially when there's a lot ofnegative around.
Janyne (37:52):
Right, right, and, and I you know, so some days I'll be
on Facebook.
I do, I do research on Facebook.
I'm just always watching seeinghow people are reacting to
those kinds of things, Causethat helps me as a writer.
But anyway, sometimes somebodywill post a meme and somebody
else will post a meme, and I'mlike like, wait a minute, they
are on completely polar oppositesides of this whole thing we're
(38:15):
dealing with, but they justposted the same thing to prove
their point right.
The point actually is is thatneither one of them feel safe,
and and all of the all of thefear-mongering is making it
worse, whether it's about thisside or about this side.
It is disrupting their abilityto stay calm in their own bodies
(38:40):
, and and then they go to thenegative, and then they and and
so, but it is.
It's all about feeling safe inour own body, but if we respond
to everything with negativeself-talk, then we don't feel
safe in our own head becausewe're being so, I mean okay,
(39:02):
that's a really scary thoughtfeeling safe in your own head,
or then you don't feel safe atall Right, like you're having a
really, really bad day and youjust need somebody to just be
like wow, that that's tough,that is a really tough day and
the only person around isyourself and you're going why
are you, why can't you right you?
(39:23):
so you're, you're the person youneed you, you, you are the one
you need in that moment.
Margie (39:31):
And negative self-talk does does not causes you to be
unsafe with yourself and that'sa, that's a, an equally big deal
and and um, I think I will savethat for our next conversation.
But the story you tell yourselfabout yourself, right, is an
(39:53):
extension of what we're talkingabout, because you can have the
facts in front of you, you know,and facts are things that you
see, things that you hear, butthen we always take what we hear
and what we see and we make anarrative about it and whether
that is something that you aretalking about, something
(40:17):
separate from yourself, but italso bears truth in what you're,
the story you're tellingyourself about yourself.
I bet there's a fancy big wordfor that too, that I don't know.
Janyne (40:37):
All right, I will.
I will try.
I don't always come up withthem.
I use them when I come up withthem, but if somebody asks me
what the word is, I'm done.
I have no idea, okay.
So one thing, one thing that Iwant to say about that, because
what you just said is soimportant, like the story we
tell about ourselves.
And where did that story begin?
Okay, the story we tell aboutourselves is buried inside of
(41:02):
the of whatever happened to usas children, and of course, I
talk about trauma, I talk aboutsexual abuse, I talk about all
these things.
You do not have to have thatkind of story to be affected by
something that happened to youas a child.
And so I I posted, I posted asub stack last Saturday about
(41:22):
moving, and the research saysthat if you move between the
ages of 10 and 15, if you movedthen you have a I'm going to
probably get the number rightbut like 41% greater chance of
being depressed as an adult.
And if you move twice or moreduring that period, you have a
(41:44):
68% chance that greater chancethat you will be suffer with
depression as an adult.
So what happens to you and forthe most part we just take for
granted yeah, we moved, you know, several times.
You know it was hard, I had togo to a new school, you know,
(42:04):
but we downplay that and don'trealize that those things
affected what we came to believeabout ourselves.
So sometimes, sometimes, when Isay something negative, I can
actually hear the person sayingit.
Okay, whether I can, whether itwas a teacher, whether it was
my mother, whether it was asibling, whether sometimes I can
(42:27):
actually know whose voice thatis being said in.
And so so those things are, andthat's where you have to be
curious once again.
You know what, what causes youto to be anxious in situations,
to feel clumsy, to feel all ofthose things.
And for me, it's generally howmany times I started a new
(42:51):
school?
Every year, from fifth grade to10th grade.
So for five solid years I wentto a new school every single
year, and my anxiety of goinginto new situations is just off
the charts sometimes.
And my survival skills that Iuse to walk into the room, own
(43:17):
the room and step into it andfind my place there is also a
phenomenal thing.
But before I'm able to do that,I die of anxiety.
And so these things are and I'mlike why?
You know you're going to do agood job once you get in there.
Why do you have to be sonegative about yourself?
Oh, because of what happened tome all those years.
Margie (43:40):
Right, and sometimes just acknowledging that yes
Moment is is enough to diffuseit.
Janyne (43:50):
Right, I mean I just stop and I give my younger self
a hug and say you know what Igot this one?
I'm not 10 years old anymore,going to a brand new school in a
new state.
No, I'm not.
I know how to do this, I can goin and I can do this, and so
(44:10):
yeah, instead of being upsetwith that younger part of me
that gets all anxious, they justneed a hug, because that was
hard, it was so hard, and soyeah, just to have compassion.
So there's another word theself-compassion.
Margie (44:27):
The self-compassion is a big deal.
This is a big deal because youare nicer to other people
frequently than you are toyourself.
Yes, you are.
Janyne (44:41):
We are.
Margie (44:41):
We all are.
Yes, we are.
And with that I'm going to wrapthis episode up, this episode
up, and I'm going to kind ofgive a little bit of a teaser
here for what we're going totalk about next, because we are
talking about stories we tellourselves.
But then I'd like to continueour conversation, janine, with
(45:04):
women and the stories we tellourselves, especially in the
religious environment.
Janyne (45:14):
Yes, important topic, absolutely, thank you.
Margie (45:23):
So how do the pieces of your life fit together?
Do they fit together well andthings are humming along just
fine, or are there some piecesthat are tight or absent or just
not fitting the bill?
This is your invitation to joinme in my glass workshop for a
(45:45):
video series, where I am goingto do a stained glass project
while I talk to you aboutsustainability and building
sustainability into your heartand into your life.
So I am going to be doing myart, which is a form of
self-care, and I'm going toinvite you into that space with
(46:08):
me and I'm going to chat.
I'm going to chat aboutself-care and I'm going to show
you how I create, and there's anifty, nifty analogy Stained
glass seems to be a very goodmetaphor for what I want to talk
about.
So I'd love for you to join me.
To do that, to opt in, I'llneed you to email me at
(46:31):
crabbypastor at gmailcom.
That's crabbypastor at gmailcom.
So you won't want to miss this.
You definitely won't want tomiss this.
So make a plan to join me inthe glass workshop.
Make a plan to join me in theglass workshop.
(46:57):
Are you wondering whether yourfatigue, your lack of motivation
, your lack of interest isburnout Maybe.
I just wanted to let you knowthat I have a resource on the
website, margiebricecom that'sb-r-y-c-e.
Margiebricecom and it is aburnout questionnaire free for
(47:21):
you to download and kind ofself-assess and get a sense of
where you're at.
There are questions that notonly ask about what you're going
through but maybe how oftenyou're experiencing it and
that's kind of a key to whereyou might be, because you have
to know where you are in orderto chart a course forward.
(47:44):
And most pastors who experiencepastors and ministry leaders
who experience burnout rarelyknow that that's where they're
at until they're well into it.
And if you're unsure about thatlittle statistic, so far,
everybody that I've interviewedon this podcast who has
(48:07):
experienced burnout, when I askthat kind of question, they're
like, yeah, I didn't know that'swhere I was at.
So again, go to margiebricecomit's on the home page of the
website and you can get yourburnout questionnaire and kind
of see where you're at.
(48:29):
Hey friends, the Crabby Pastorpodcast is sponsored by Bryce
Art Glass and you can find thaton Facebook.
I make stained glass as part ofmy self-care and also by Bryce
Coaching, where I coach ministryleaders and business leaders,
and so the funds that I generatefrom coaching and from making
(48:54):
stained glass is what issupporting this podcast, and I
will have opportunities for youto be a part of sponsoring me
and, as always, you can do thebuy me a cup of coffee thing in
the in the show notes.
But I will have some other waysthat you can be a part of
(49:15):
getting the word out about theimportance of healthy self care
for ministry leaders.
Hey, thanks for listening.
It is my deep desire andpassion to champion issues of
sustainability in ministry andfor your life, so I'm here to
(49:39):
help.
I stepped back from pastoralministry and I feel called to
help ministry leaders create andcultivate sustainability in
their lives so that they can gothe distance with God and
whatever plans that God has foryou.
I would love to help, I wouldconsider it an honor and, in all
(50:03):
things, make sure you connectto these sustainability
practices you know so that youdon't become the Crabby Pastor.
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