September 11, 2024 • 34 mins
Both men and women will benefit from this discussion on how women leaders in ministry navigate the unique challenges of self-doubt and cultural barriers. Join us as Margie Bryce and our special guest Janyne McConnaughey uncover the intricacies of imposter syndrome and self-limiting narratives that often plague women in leadership. With a rich background in both supportive and restrictive church environments, Janyne sheds light on the critical need for male leaders to foster inclusive spaces and the invaluable role of self-awareness and self-compassion.
We are talking about sustainability in ministry leadership. Margie opens up about her own experience stepping back from pastoral duties to champion sustainable practices that prevent burnout. With her passion for self-care strategies, Margie offers practical advice and resources to help leaders maintain their well-being and fulfill God's plans without becoming overwhelmed. This episode is a heartfelt conversation that champions vulnerability, resilience, and a commitment to personal growth.
This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.
Contact info:
Email me at crabbypastor@gmail.com with your input and ideas for burnout and leadership topics of interest or if you know someone who might be interesting to interview.
Visit my website:
YOUR LEADERSHIP COACH FOCUSED ON BURNOUT PREVENTION
Get your FREE Burnout Symptoms test to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE.
CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT SYMPTOMS TEST.
I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.
And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.
Blessings on your journey!
Margie
🦀 🦀 🦀
Find regular support on my Facebook group: Building Sustainability in Ministry Leaders: Beating Burnout.
Connect with me about
LEADERSHIP COACHING and Workshops...
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Margie (00:01):
Hey, there it's Margie Bryce, your host of the Crabby
Pastor podcast, where we talkabout all things sustainability,
whether it's sustainability inministry, in your personal life
and we acknowledge that thechurch is in a transitional time
, so we hit topics there, toothat are going to stretch your
(00:22):
mind and the way you lead,especially how you lead yourself
, so that you don't become thecrabby pastor
This\This is Margie Bryce withthe Crabby Pastor Podcast.
Are you crabby today?
I always like to ask people whythey're crabby.
(00:45):
So not why are you crabby rightnow?
But what are the things thatmake you crabby?
Because life is challengingenough.
Hay, who is just amazing tochat with.
I love having our conversationsbecause you bring different
(01:07):
things to the forefront and helpus in our thinking, but we're
still talking somewhat aboutself-care and the stories that
we tell ourselves.
I think that goes in with, uh,imposter syndrome too, don't you
think?
It does, it does and uh,probably with women or the most,
(01:31):
not that men are absent from it, but it's different, it looks
different.
We're the queens of syndrome.
How is that?
You know?
Or you know, because I've askedmyself questions before what
makes me think I can do fill inthe blank, especially in terms
of ministry.
I mean, I know for me, when Ijust accepted my call, I just, I
(01:56):
don't know.
I have catholic roots I don'tknow if you knew that or not
about me, but catholic roots, soyou know, when god calls, know
there's angels in the backgroundgoing and all that.
And so you just, I just plottedalong and as I got into the
thick of it it was much morechallenging to navigate than
what I anticipated.
(02:16):
Like I think in our last episodeyou said something about how
light, how we think life isgoing to be, and it's always
this beautiful upward trajectorywith flowers and lollipops
everywhere, and then we get onit and it's more like a wacky
ride on a roller coaster.
And for leaders, especially oursense of self-care.
(02:37):
And we talked last episodeabout our ability to think,
about our thinking.
Why do we think like that?
You know, that is a keycomponent of self-awareness and
it is a factor that arises whenyou're talking about things like
self-talk and the kind ofstories that we tell ourselves
(03:01):
about who we are, and ourabilities, our giftedness Any of
that resonate with you, janine.
Janyne (03:10):
Yes, and as you were talking, I was thinking about
the fact that my story is kindof unique in as far as a woman
leader, in that I began my dadwas a pastor in a denomination,
a Wesleyan denomination, thatordained women and had women
(03:33):
church board members and and,and some of the, some of the
women that I was acquainted withgrowing up were just strong
women leaders with growing upwere just strong women leaders
Just like, yes, take charge andget it done, and compassionate
and hardworking, but strong.
(03:54):
And after I graduated fromcollege, I took a job in a
church that was aself-proclaimed fundamentalist
church.
Okay, I, I had no idea, I hadabsolutely no idea that that a
world where women's, my verystrong leadership skills, would
(04:20):
not be appreciated and it didn'treally go well, let's just put
it that way.
Margie (04:26):
Well, that's probably the nicest thing you had to say
about that just didn't go welldid not go well and I I was.
Janyne (04:40):
I I was fired two jobs in a row.
No, there, there was a job inthe middle in a Brethren church.
It was lovely, lovelyexperience and so anyway.
So when I talk about the roleof women, I almost feel, I feel
like I have those two verydifferent viewpoints inside of
(05:03):
me, and so it's hard for me to.
I deeply sympathize with thosewho live in church cultures that
have very prescribed ways thatwomen can express their
(05:24):
leadership, if at all.
And then I have this other sideof me that was very, very
strong and went to a collegethat was very strong in
developing women as leaders.
And so I just want to say thatbefore we go into this, because
sometimes I say things that seemlike I'm saying two different
(05:45):
things, but they come out of twodifferent parts of my life
Because it depends on what thequestion is.
Margie (05:51):
That's fine and, as you were talking about that, you
know, I've been aware of thosesituations.
I've been in congregations andcertainly if you have a Catholic
upbringing, the opportunitiesfor women are none.
But that's spelled N-U-N.
I mean.
I guess there's other things.
Some churches would allow alector you know, a female lector
(06:14):
, others would not, you know.
So that is an environment inwhich the story has been
pre-written for you.
Yes, Right, yes, this is whatI'm thinking about as you're
talking.
I thought, isn't that amazingthen to encounter places where
(06:35):
the story is not just this is astory that you're writing and
don't think even about anythingelse, even if you're competent
and able to live a differentstory.
But we still can, even in thoseenvironments that allow for
space for a broader story, evenin those environments, we can be
(07:00):
our own worst enemy as women,be our own worst enemy as women.
And I have to say here too,before we go too much further
with this, that, guys, if you'relistening, this is worthwhile
for you to hear and to know andto understand, especially as you
are giving space in your lifefor women leaders and you're
(07:24):
inviting them to sit at thetable of leadership.
It's important to understandthis.
So but yes, we can undermineourselves.
Janyne (07:32):
Right, and I appreciate you saying that, because men
stay with us.
Right, because we what womencan offer in a church, and I've
learned to navigate how to be aleader in a, in a, in a culture
that did not did not allow me tobe the leader that I could have
(08:00):
been.
I learned to navigate that andto make an impact that I could
have been.
I learned to navigate that andto make an impact and, and I
want I want to say that itwasn't like I just went and
curled up in a corner.
I was definitely a leader there, but I had parameters that I
had to live by.
But but, but no matter whatyou're, no matter what you
(08:21):
believe about the ordination ornot ordaining women within a
church, then is it about womenor is it about women in
leadership, right?
So I think that they miss somuch of what women could bring
(08:44):
to the table and the viewpointsthat they could bring to the
table if they were allowed tosit at the table.
And so find a way, in whatevertheological, whatever doctrinal,
whatever, doesn't matter to meFind a way to listen to women,
and staying here with us is oneof those ways.
(09:05):
Sure, so no pressure.
Margie (09:08):
But pressure, I know.
So why do we think that womenseem to be better at the
negative self-talk?
And especially?
You know, if you do enough ofthe negative self-talk over time
, you're a writer you're takingall these sentences or
(09:30):
paragraphs about your negativeself and then you knit it all
together and it does become thestory that you tell yourself
about yourself.
And I know, for me I sometimes,when things haven't gone the
way I had hoped I can, you know,what do I think I'm doing?
And you know what?
What kind of story do I want toreally live into?
(09:52):
I have to stop myself literallyand and really say whoa so I'm
going to tell a story right here.
Janyne (10:04):
I was having a conversation with my brothers
last week and we were talkingabout we have conversations
about growing up and we're like10 years apart, five years apart
, and and I was the youngest andthey were the two older boys
and and our perspectives of our,our life as children are very
(10:24):
there's some things that we, youknow, they're very supportive
of me, they agree completely,but there's things that they're
like wow, we didn't see it thatway, Right.
And so I think that sometimeswhen I storytell, then I lose my
train of thought.
Margie (10:41):
No, no, you're good.
You're right that severalpeople in the same family can
encounter the same trauma, butthe impact of that trauma can be
very different, very verydifferent.
So that's fair game.
Janyne (10:58):
And when we talk about women?
Okay, let's say, you put awoman, a woman and a man in a
room and they both make the samemistake.
Okay, the man's gonna get apass on the mistake he just made
and the women is unlikely toget a pass on the mistake she
(11:19):
just made.
Margie (11:20):
Okay, just the way that.
Is that always the case?
Janyne (11:27):
Do you think?
I think that when it comes toleadership, I'm not talking
about morals, I'm not talkingabout we're talking about just
women in leadership roles.
Okay, that that it is.
It is much easier for for theman to make the mistake, and a
lot of times when the woman ismakes a mistake, she's seen as
(11:49):
well.
You really probably shouldn'thave been in a leadership role
because you're a woman andyou're too emotional, you know
all of those things right,Whereas a man who say, well, you
know what, you were being astrong leader and you made a
decision and you went with it.
And that's more important, right, that it is like.
All of the research will showyou that how that is viewed by,
(12:10):
by, by men and women.
Okay, that that it's muchharder.
And so when you, when you areput in situation after situation
after situation like that, thenyou eventually come to believe
that you, you are the problem,and that's where the negative
self-talk comes from.
And so I mean, I would get, I,I would.
(12:37):
I was kid that every teacher wasthey love me, but, oh, my
goodness, she's a challenge,okay and so, but I would, I
would get in trouble for thingsthat the boys didn't get in
trouble for, right, it was justreally, it was just different.
And so I think that we, when wetalk about we talked about in
(12:58):
the last part that that, what wehave, what happens to us as
children and what happens to us,I think that that that it's
easier in the, in the process ofgrowing up, to see being a
woman as its own form ofnegativity, as it's, you know,
(13:26):
too emotional, to, to, to, to,to you know, yeah, and then if
you do step into some roles, youknow you're, you're too, too,
too.
Right, and so you're alwaystrying, you're always bucking up
against that, and you come toaccept that as your own
(13:47):
narrative.
And and and once again, youknow, whenever we talk in
generalities, it doesn't applyto everyone.
I posted something the otherday and three people say well,
that wasn't my experience.
I'm like oh, you're so blessed.
Margie (14:03):
Yeah, yeah, well, it is, that's wonderful, that's
wonderful, yeah, that's true,that's true.
But you know, I mean we all, Ithink write stories about
ourselves.
It is definitely connected toour past experience that you
know things that you haveencountered.
(14:23):
It all comes to be a part ofwho you are and you do function
out of that.
It's a matter, too, then, oflearning to discern when you're
heading down that merry paththat I mean.
But we have to be careful,because I came to this
conclusion one day is that Ican't be that little yapping
(14:45):
piece of clay at God saying toGod you made me incorrectly.
You know I should have beencrafted as a guy.
You know, I mean, I was made tobe female and I have to step
into that and live into that.
(15:06):
And then you know, because all,even the guys in ministry,
everybody, everybody, let me sayit this way Everybody has
something that they have to pushthrough and persevere through
in ministry, all of us havebaggage, all of us have
something, and it just sohappens that that, you know,
(15:28):
women have their own category.
You know that they have to sayI am, I am called by god, and I
need to just stand firm in that,and what the rest of all y'all
do with.
That is your issue.
It's done.
You know, I don't know.
You know, because it's tricky.
(15:51):
It's tricky.
I have on my husband's side ofthe family, the family I married
into, there was there's afaction that is wesleyan.
They would acknowledge women'sgifts and abilities in ministry.
And then there was a factionwhere, no, you are an
(16:12):
abomination and you know, whatdo you think you're doing?
So I know I would go hidebehind the Wesleyan people at
the family reunions because Iwas basically a wuss, I guess.
I just so you know, I mean.
But then you have to say toyourself look, I'm somebody who
(16:34):
was called by God.
Now the story for me does getbetter.
I mean, this is it was kind ofsad because it has to do with
funerals, but my father-in-lawand then his older brother
passed within six weeks of eachother.
And when my father-in-law andthen his older brother passed
within six weeks of each other,and when my father-in-law passed
, I was asked to participate inthe funeral and I thought, okay,
(16:56):
you know, because, all right,I'm going to be up front, I'm
going to be doing that, and Idid.
And it must have beenacceptable, because six weeks
later I was asked to participatein my uncle's funeral, who was
basically not having that andnot down with women doing that.
Fortunately, I had served in aparachurch ministry and was
(17:21):
known in my community andconnected with that, and the
pastor at his church was notdown with women doing that.
He was gracious to me when Icame in the door and I just said
I'm going to go just sit up onthe front row.
You let me know when you wantme to come up.
And they wanted me to read somescripture and solicit for
(17:43):
people to share.
You know that was my role.
And I said now I'll do that.
And he said no, no, no, you'regoing to process in with us.
And the casket, he said.
And then you're sitting on theplatform, you know.
And I just said oh, all righty.
So all of this happens, I'msitting on the platform, I'm
(18:04):
going to get up and readscripture in this church, and it
was it stated in the, in thelittle handout for everyone,
that I was Reverend Dr MargieBryce, which I thought, oh my
gosh, look at this.
And I got up front and I'llnever forget, just standing
there for just a moment andlooking out over all of these
(18:25):
people and I thought, truly, god, you can place my little feet
anywhere you so choose, can'tyou?
And I kind of chuckled tomyself in the irony of the
moment that was there.
It was really really kind ofinteresting.
So that's a story.
(18:45):
My spiritual director when Ishared it with her, you know I
thought she was going to comeout of her chair when I shared
it and she said you know, thatis an important God thing to
remember and reflect on.
Especially now is where I'mgoing to shift back to,
especially as you seek to tellyour stories to yourself.
Janyne (19:09):
Right, well, okay, so let me give my version of that,
okay, Okay, because I'mlistening to you and I'm like,
oh my gosh, yes, and and the.
The story I'm going to tell isvery different.
It shows how our path with Godis such an individual thing.
(19:29):
So I had taught at Biblecolleges for 33 years when I
ended out going and beginningtherapy and healing and I
resigned from my position aspart of that and I said I told
my therapist my life is over.
You know my career, you know II'd worked, I'd worked to
(19:52):
achieve a high level ofprofessionalism.
I it's over and that's a storyto tell yourself right yeah.
It's over, you know, and shesaid.
She said, janine, I know youcan't see your future right now,
but but it's out there and I'llhold it for you until you get
(20:12):
there, Okay.
Margie (20:14):
Oh, that was such a sweet thing to say, isn't that
amazing?
Janyne (20:18):
And she is out here with me tracking what I'm doing and
we laugh about that a lot.
Remember when you sat there andyou said, okay, so there I am
with my story and believing thatmy life is over.
And then five years, five yearspast that point, I have.
I've been teaching in the, amaster's program for
(20:43):
neuroscience and trauma.
I've done I don't know how manypodcasts and speaking.
It's like up in the 70sprobably.
That I've done.
I've been president.
I just finished my fifth year asa board member for the
Attachment and Trauma Networkand I thought when I went
(21:04):
outside of the church that Iwould never be accepted because
of my background in the Biblecollege professor.
You know, bible collegeprofessor goes out into the
world and you know how is thatgoing to work.
And so when I, two years ago, Iwas president of the board and
(21:27):
I got up to greet everyone aspresident of the board and I
looked out over the conference,we were in person and I looked
out at all the people and I hadthat moment that you had
standing there where I said, Isaid God is not limited by my
narrative about myself, becausethe same thing that those doors
(21:51):
will all be closed to me becauseof my you know Bible college
professor background at a smallcollege right and and God is not
limited by the narratives thatwe tell ourselves is exact.
Margie (22:07):
It kind of gives me chills to hear our two stories
and have that moment right, Iknow I know and and those are
the those are the moments thatwe need to sew into ourselves,
even if you're allergic toneedle and thread, like I am.
But we need to throw those intoourselves and really reflect on
(22:33):
those.
I remember early on in myChristian walk-on I had some
amazing discipleship, a gal thatjust walked with me and she
would all the time talk about Ican do all things through Christ
, who strengthens me, and thatit is God that gives us our
gifts and abilities to use andto move forward in that.
(22:55):
But then there are the daysthat we allow our you know, our
past to just kind of comebubbling up and and overtake the
moment.
And we need to just get betterat recognizing that and
recognizing our thinking aboutthat and then not wanting to
(23:18):
weave that into our story allthe time.
But you know, poor me is a goodone, that one you know I feel
like the victim.
A lot you know about this orthat and I just I go, oh, that's
, that's really not who I wantto be.
And the same thing with beingjust at times feeling like I'm
(23:38):
this tragic little figure andthere's a weird little narrative
, and then saying that's not whoI want to be and I don't think
God made me to be that exactlyso learning to shift and and be
aware that that that we're doingharm to ourselves right.
Janyne (23:59):
Well, you know, I just want to say this is really kind
of an interesting I'm going tobe really vulnerable right here.
Okay, because, because thiswasn't what we were originally
going to talk and we kind ofwent off and did the second part
, and I'm sitting here going, ohmy gosh, this was for me, okay.
And so so I'm sitting here andI'm realizing, because because I
(24:21):
I had to step back this year, Ihad to, I had to set down
everything in order to heal andjust whole other layers of
trauma that that I was not evenaware of in some cases and was
not aware of the impact on me.
And so so I, I I've set down somany things and, like I said in
(24:43):
the first, that this is thefirst podcast back after taking
this long hiatus, and I and Irealizing that I I'm, because of
age and because of thelong-term impact of trauma, in
some ways I am limited goingforward in what I can do, but
but that does not affect whatGod has planned for me now that
(25:07):
I've worked through all thathealing, right.
So I've kind of gone back.
I realized, as I was telling myown narrative, I went, oh my
gosh, I mean, you're sitting onthat couch again, thinking it's
over right, and I'm just goingto sit on my back porch and not
that I'm not happy there.
I love my chickens and theymake me laugh and I just sit and
(25:30):
watch and the birds come and Ijust I absolutely love my life
here where I am, but it doesn'tmean that that the next part of
my life isn't less importantthan the part that I just
completed.
They're they're going to lookvery different from each other,
but they're just as importantand more focused on my writing
(25:52):
than what the last five years,even though I published four
books how can I say I wasn'tfocused on my writing?
It's just different, in adifferent way.
And so I do think that thosenarratives that get embedded in
us and I wonder if, when I moved, after I had lived somewhere
for 10 years as a little girland suddenly was uprooted, all
(26:15):
of my support systems, all of myfriends, all of everything my
church, my community, everythingI lost and then I just got
deposited somewhere else If thatnarrative didn't begin there,
then my life is over.
When changes happen, my life isover, yeah.
Right.
Then I'm just like, oh my gosh,that's what I'm doing again.
(26:40):
That narrative is so deepwithin me that I don't see it as
a pivot, I see it as an end,and that's what.
That's what narratives do to usis they get stuck because of
what has happened to us as aschildren or as adults, and then
and then we get stuck in thatsame narrative again of
(27:02):
believing that it's over, or wecan't do that or that, not
possible.
And so thank you, thank you forcontinuing, now that I've had,
I've had my own little therapyset.
Margie (27:14):
I know having epiphanies on the on the crabby pastor
podcast by golly, that's prettyfunny, it is, it is.
So, yeah, I don't know.
Now I'm sitting here wonderingif I shouldn't rename the
podcast, because what was Ithinking?
What kind of story is thisCrabby bastard?
I don't know.
Well, I want to thank you somuch for being on here again and
(27:39):
for sharing, and our hope isthat, at the end of the day,
that you're going to be reallylooking at the story that you're
telling yourself about yourselfand asking yourself what story
is God writing?
And am I trying to swipe thepencil all the time?
What kind of story are you?
(28:03):
And if you're not sure aboutwhat story God is writing, I
guess I'm going to push a littlefurther and say are you at
peace with letting God hold theblueprint as you walk with God
through this era?
Janyne (28:19):
Yeah, because it's going to be so much better than you
expected.
Hard times, difficult times,absolutely, but it'll take you
to a place you never expected tobe.
And I want to say this isreally funny but what I talked
about about metacognition in thefirst yeah, you just wanted to
say that again.
I wanted to say metacognitionagain.
(28:40):
I love that word.
Okay, just what I just did setdemonstrated what I tried to
explain in the first one.
That was being being curious,thinking about what I was
thinking, and, and because ofthat, then I will not fall into
that self-talk narrative again.
So they both fit together, yeah.
Margie (29:05):
And this is totally unscripted besides.
So, although I have a feelingthat God had a hand for sure,
what do you think?
I don't know.
Well, thank you so much forbeing on the podcast again, and
I love having you here.
Janyne (29:23):
It's always a fun conversation.
Yes, I love this.
Thank you, thank you.
Margie (29:31):
So how do the pieces of your life fit together?
Do they fit together well andthings are humming along just
fine, or are there some piecesthat are tight or absent or just
not fitting the bill.
Absent or just not fitting thebill?
(29:53):
This is your invitation to joinme in my glass workshop for a
video series, where I am goingto do a stained glass project
while I talk to you aboutsustainability and building
sustainability into your heartand into your life.
So I am going to be doing myart, which is a form of
self-care, and I'm going toinvite you into that space with
(30:15):
me and I'm going to chat.
I'm going to chat aboutself-care and I'm going to show
you how I create.
And there's a nifty, niftyanalogy Stained glass seems to
be a very good metaphor for whatI want to talk about.
So I'd love for you to join me.
To do that, to opt in, I'llneed you to email me at
(30:38):
crabbypastor at gmailcom.
That's crabbypastor at gmailcom.
So you won't want to miss thisdot com.
So you won't want to miss this.
You definitely won't want tomiss this.
So, so make a plan to join mein the glass workshop.
Are you wondering whether yourfatigue, your lack of motivation
(31:04):
, your lack of interest, isburnout Maybe.
I just wanted to let you knowthat I have a resource on the
website, margiebricecom that'sB-R-Y-C-E MargieBricecom, and it
is a burnout questionnaire freefor you to download, and kind
(31:31):
of self-assess and get a senseof where you're at.
There are questions that notonly ask about what you're going
through but maybe how oftenyou're experiencing it, and
that's kind of a key to whereyou might be, because you have
to know where you are in orderto chart a course forward.
(31:51):
And most pastors who experiencepastors and ministry leaders
who experience burnout rarelyknow that that's where they're
at until they're well into it.
And if you're unsure about thatlittle statistic, so far,
everybody that I've interviewedon this podcast who has
(32:15):
experienced burnout, when Iasked that kind of question,
they're like, yeah, I didn'tknow that's where I was at.
So again, go to margiebricecomit's on the homepage of the
website and you can get yourburnout questionnaire and kind
of see where you're at.
(32:36):
Hey friends, the Krabby Pastorpodcast is sponsored by Bryce
Art Glass and you can find thaton Facebook I make stained glass
as part of my self-care andalso by Bryce Coaching, where I
coach ministry leaders andbusiness leaders, and so the
(32:56):
funds that I generate fromcoaching and from making stained
glass is what is supportingthis podcast, and I will have
opportunities for you to be apart of sponsoring me and, as
always, you can do the buy me acup of coffee thing in the show
(33:19):
notes.
But I will have some other waysthat you can be a part of
getting the word out about theimportance of healthy self-care
for ministry leaders.
Hey, thanks for listening.
(33:42):
It is my deep desire andpassion to champion issues of
sustainability in ministry andfor your life, so I'm here to
help.
I stepped back from pastoralministry and I feel called to
help ministry leaders create andcultivate sustainability in
their lives so that they can gothe distance with God and
(34:02):
whatever plans that God has foryou.
I would love to help, I wouldconsider it an honor and, in all
things, make sure you connectto these sustainability
practices you know, so that youdon't become the Crabby Pastor.
Thank you.
Hey, there it's Margie Bryce, your host of the Crabby
Pastor podcast, where we talkabout all things sustainability,
whether it's sustainability inministry, in your personal life
and we acknowledge that thechurch is in a transitional time
, so we hit topics there, toothat are going to stretch your
(00:22):
mind and the way you lead,especially how you lead yourself
, so that you don't become thecrabby pastor
This\This is Margie Bryce withthe Crabby Pastor Podcast.
Are you crabby today?
I always like to ask people whythey're crabby.
(00:45):
So not why are you crabby rightnow?
But what are the things thatmake you crabby?
Because life is challengingenough.
Hay, who is just amazing tochat with.
I love having our conversationsbecause you bring different
(01:07):
things to the forefront and helpus in our thinking, but we're
still talking somewhat aboutself-care and the stories that
we tell ourselves.
I think that goes in with, uh,imposter syndrome too, don't you
think?
It does, it does and uh,probably with women or the most,
(01:31):
not that men are absent from it, but it's different, it looks
different.
We're the queens of syndrome.
How is that?
You know?
Or you know, because I've askedmyself questions before what
makes me think I can do fill inthe blank, especially in terms
of ministry.
I mean, I know for me, when Ijust accepted my call, I just, I
(01:56):
don't know.
I have catholic roots I don'tknow if you knew that or not
about me, but catholic roots, soyou know, when god calls, know
there's angels in the backgroundgoing and all that.
And so you just, I just plottedalong and as I got into the
thick of it it was much morechallenging to navigate than
what I anticipated.
(02:16):
Like I think in our last episodeyou said something about how
light, how we think life isgoing to be, and it's always
this beautiful upward trajectorywith flowers and lollipops
everywhere, and then we get onit and it's more like a wacky
ride on a roller coaster.
And for leaders, especially oursense of self-care.
(02:37):
And we talked last episodeabout our ability to think,
about our thinking.
Why do we think like that?
You know, that is a keycomponent of self-awareness and
it is a factor that arises whenyou're talking about things like
self-talk and the kind ofstories that we tell ourselves
(03:01):
about who we are, and ourabilities, our giftedness Any of
that resonate with you, janine.
Janyne (03:10):
Yes, and as you were talking, I was thinking about
the fact that my story is kindof unique in as far as a woman
leader, in that I began my dadwas a pastor in a denomination,
a Wesleyan denomination, thatordained women and had women
(03:33):
church board members and and,and some of the, some of the
women that I was acquainted withgrowing up were just strong
women leaders with growing upwere just strong women leaders
Just like, yes, take charge andget it done, and compassionate
and hardworking, but strong.
(03:54):
And after I graduated fromcollege, I took a job in a
church that was aself-proclaimed fundamentalist
church.
Okay, I, I had no idea, I hadabsolutely no idea that that a
world where women's, my verystrong leadership skills, would
(04:20):
not be appreciated and it didn'treally go well, let's just put
it that way.
Margie (04:26):
Well, that's probably the nicest thing you had to say
about that just didn't go welldid not go well and I I was.
Janyne (04:40):
I I was fired two jobs in a row.
No, there, there was a job inthe middle in a Brethren church.
It was lovely, lovelyexperience and so anyway.
So when I talk about the roleof women, I almost feel, I feel
like I have those two verydifferent viewpoints inside of
(05:03):
me, and so it's hard for me to.
I deeply sympathize with thosewho live in church cultures that
have very prescribed ways thatwomen can express their
(05:24):
leadership, if at all.
And then I have this other sideof me that was very, very
strong and went to a collegethat was very strong in
developing women as leaders.
And so I just want to say thatbefore we go into this, because
sometimes I say things that seemlike I'm saying two different
(05:45):
things, but they come out of twodifferent parts of my life
Because it depends on what thequestion is.
Margie (05:51):
That's fine and, as you were talking about that, you
know, I've been aware of thosesituations.
I've been in congregations andcertainly if you have a Catholic
upbringing, the opportunitiesfor women are none.
But that's spelled N-U-N.
I mean.
I guess there's other things.
Some churches would allow alector you know, a female lector
(06:14):
, others would not, you know.
So that is an environment inwhich the story has been
pre-written for you.
Yes, Right, yes, this is whatI'm thinking about as you're
talking.
I thought, isn't that amazingthen to encounter places where
(06:35):
the story is not just this is astory that you're writing and
don't think even about anythingelse, even if you're competent
and able to live a differentstory.
But we still can, even in thoseenvironments that allow for
space for a broader story, evenin those environments, we can be
(07:00):
our own worst enemy as women,be our own worst enemy as women.
And I have to say here too,before we go too much further
with this, that, guys, if you'relistening, this is worthwhile
for you to hear and to know andto understand, especially as you
are giving space in your lifefor women leaders and you're
(07:24):
inviting them to sit at thetable of leadership.
It's important to understandthis.
So but yes, we can undermineourselves.
Janyne (07:32):
Right, and I appreciate you saying that, because men
stay with us.
Right, because we what womencan offer in a church, and I've
learned to navigate how to be aleader in a, in a, in a culture
that did not did not allow me tobe the leader that I could have
(08:00):
been.
I learned to navigate that andto make an impact that I could
have been.
I learned to navigate that andto make an impact and, and I
want I want to say that itwasn't like I just went and
curled up in a corner.
I was definitely a leader there, but I had parameters that I
had to live by.
But but, but no matter whatyou're, no matter what you
(08:21):
believe about the ordination ornot ordaining women within a
church, then is it about womenor is it about women in
leadership, right?
So I think that they miss somuch of what women could bring
(08:44):
to the table and the viewpointsthat they could bring to the
table if they were allowed tosit at the table.
And so find a way, in whatevertheological, whatever doctrinal,
whatever, doesn't matter to meFind a way to listen to women,
and staying here with us is oneof those ways.
(09:05):
Sure, so no pressure.
Margie (09:08):
But pressure, I know.
So why do we think that womenseem to be better at the
negative self-talk?
And especially?
You know, if you do enough ofthe negative self-talk over time
, you're a writer you're takingall these sentences or
(09:30):
paragraphs about your negativeself and then you knit it all
together and it does become thestory that you tell yourself
about yourself.
And I know, for me I sometimes,when things haven't gone the
way I had hoped I can, you know,what do I think I'm doing?
And you know what?
What kind of story do I want toreally live into?
(09:52):
I have to stop myself literallyand and really say whoa so I'm
going to tell a story right here.
Janyne (10:04):
I was having a conversation with my brothers
last week and we were talkingabout we have conversations
about growing up and we're like10 years apart, five years apart
, and and I was the youngest andthey were the two older boys
and and our perspectives of our,our life as children are very
(10:24):
there's some things that we, youknow, they're very supportive
of me, they agree completely,but there's things that they're
like wow, we didn't see it thatway, Right.
And so I think that sometimeswhen I storytell, then I lose my
train of thought.
Margie (10:41):
No, no, you're good.
You're right that severalpeople in the same family can
encounter the same trauma, butthe impact of that trauma can be
very different, very verydifferent.
So that's fair game.
Janyne (10:58):
And when we talk about women?
Okay, let's say, you put awoman, a woman and a man in a
room and they both make the samemistake.
Okay, the man's gonna get apass on the mistake he just made
and the women is unlikely toget a pass on the mistake she
(11:19):
just made.
Margie (11:20):
Okay, just the way that.
Is that always the case?
Janyne (11:27):
Do you think?
I think that when it comes toleadership, I'm not talking
about morals, I'm not talkingabout we're talking about just
women in leadership roles.
Okay, that that it is.
It is much easier for for theman to make the mistake, and a
lot of times when the woman ismakes a mistake, she's seen as
(11:49):
well.
You really probably shouldn'thave been in a leadership role
because you're a woman andyou're too emotional, you know
all of those things right,Whereas a man who say, well, you
know what, you were being astrong leader and you made a
decision and you went with it.
And that's more important, right, that it is like.
All of the research will showyou that how that is viewed by,
(12:10):
by, by men and women.
Okay, that that it's muchharder.
And so when you, when you areput in situation after situation
after situation like that, thenyou eventually come to believe
that you, you are the problem,and that's where the negative
self-talk comes from.
And so I mean, I would get, I,I would.
(12:37):
I was kid that every teacher wasthey love me, but, oh, my
goodness, she's a challenge,okay and so, but I would, I
would get in trouble for thingsthat the boys didn't get in
trouble for, right, it was justreally, it was just different.
And so I think that we, when wetalk about we talked about in
(12:58):
the last part that that, what wehave, what happens to us as
children and what happens to us,I think that that that it's
easier in the, in the process ofgrowing up, to see being a
woman as its own form ofnegativity, as it's, you know,
(13:26):
too emotional, to, to, to, to,to you know, yeah, and then if
you do step into some roles, youknow you're, you're too, too,
too.
Right, and so you're alwaystrying, you're always bucking up
against that, and you come toaccept that as your own
(13:47):
narrative.
And and and once again, youknow, whenever we talk in
generalities, it doesn't applyto everyone.
I posted something the otherday and three people say well,
that wasn't my experience.
I'm like oh, you're so blessed.
Margie (14:03):
Yeah, yeah, well, it is, that's wonderful, that's
wonderful, yeah, that's true,that's true.
But you know, I mean we all, Ithink write stories about
ourselves.
It is definitely connected toour past experience that you
know things that you haveencountered.
(14:23):
It all comes to be a part ofwho you are and you do function
out of that.
It's a matter, too, then, oflearning to discern when you're
heading down that merry paththat I mean.
But we have to be careful,because I came to this
conclusion one day is that Ican't be that little yapping
(14:45):
piece of clay at God saying toGod you made me incorrectly.
You know I should have beencrafted as a guy.
You know, I mean, I was made tobe female and I have to step
into that and live into that.
(15:06):
And then you know, because all,even the guys in ministry,
everybody, everybody, let me sayit this way Everybody has
something that they have to pushthrough and persevere through
in ministry, all of us havebaggage, all of us have
something, and it just sohappens that that, you know,
(15:28):
women have their own category.
You know that they have to sayI am, I am called by god, and I
need to just stand firm in that,and what the rest of all y'all
do with.
That is your issue.
It's done.
You know, I don't know.
You know, because it's tricky.
(15:51):
It's tricky.
I have on my husband's side ofthe family, the family I married
into, there was there's afaction that is wesleyan.
They would acknowledge women'sgifts and abilities in ministry.
And then there was a factionwhere, no, you are an
(16:12):
abomination and you know, whatdo you think you're doing?
So I know I would go hidebehind the Wesleyan people at
the family reunions because Iwas basically a wuss, I guess.
I just so you know, I mean.
But then you have to say toyourself look, I'm somebody who
(16:34):
was called by God.
Now the story for me does getbetter.
I mean, this is it was kind ofsad because it has to do with
funerals, but my father-in-lawand then his older brother
passed within six weeks of eachother.
And when my father-in-law andthen his older brother passed
within six weeks of each other,and when my father-in-law passed
, I was asked to participate inthe funeral and I thought, okay,
(16:56):
you know, because, all right,I'm going to be up front, I'm
going to be doing that, and Idid.
And it must have beenacceptable, because six weeks
later I was asked to participatein my uncle's funeral, who was
basically not having that andnot down with women doing that.
Fortunately, I had served in aparachurch ministry and was
(17:21):
known in my community andconnected with that, and the
pastor at his church was notdown with women doing that.
He was gracious to me when Icame in the door and I just said
I'm going to go just sit up onthe front row.
You let me know when you wantme to come up.
And they wanted me to read somescripture and solicit for
(17:43):
people to share.
You know that was my role.
And I said now I'll do that.
And he said no, no, no, you'regoing to process in with us.
And the casket, he said.
And then you're sitting on theplatform, you know.
And I just said oh, all righty.
So all of this happens, I'msitting on the platform, I'm
(18:04):
going to get up and readscripture in this church, and it
was it stated in the, in thelittle handout for everyone,
that I was Reverend Dr MargieBryce, which I thought, oh my
gosh, look at this.
And I got up front and I'llnever forget, just standing
there for just a moment andlooking out over all of these
(18:25):
people and I thought, truly, god, you can place my little feet
anywhere you so choose, can'tyou?
And I kind of chuckled tomyself in the irony of the
moment that was there.
It was really really kind ofinteresting.
So that's a story.
(18:45):
My spiritual director when Ishared it with her, you know I
thought she was going to comeout of her chair when I shared
it and she said you know, thatis an important God thing to
remember and reflect on.
Especially now is where I'mgoing to shift back to,
especially as you seek to tellyour stories to yourself.
Janyne (19:09):
Right, well, okay, so let me give my version of that,
okay, Okay, because I'mlistening to you and I'm like,
oh my gosh, yes, and and the.
The story I'm going to tell isvery different.
It shows how our path with Godis such an individual thing.
(19:29):
So I had taught at Biblecolleges for 33 years when I
ended out going and beginningtherapy and healing and I
resigned from my position aspart of that and I said I told
my therapist my life is over.
You know my career, you know II'd worked, I'd worked to
(19:52):
achieve a high level ofprofessionalism.
I it's over and that's a storyto tell yourself right yeah.
It's over, you know, and shesaid.
She said, janine, I know youcan't see your future right now,
but but it's out there and I'llhold it for you until you get
(20:12):
there, Okay.
Margie (20:14):
Oh, that was such a sweet thing to say, isn't that
amazing?
Janyne (20:18):
And she is out here with me tracking what I'm doing and
we laugh about that a lot.
Remember when you sat there andyou said, okay, so there I am
with my story and believing thatmy life is over.
And then five years, five yearspast that point, I have.
I've been teaching in the, amaster's program for
(20:43):
neuroscience and trauma.
I've done I don't know how manypodcasts and speaking.
It's like up in the 70sprobably.
That I've done.
I've been president.
I just finished my fifth year asa board member for the
Attachment and Trauma Networkand I thought when I went
(21:04):
outside of the church that Iwould never be accepted because
of my background in the Biblecollege professor.
You know, bible collegeprofessor goes out into the
world and you know how is thatgoing to work.
And so when I, two years ago, Iwas president of the board and
(21:27):
I got up to greet everyone aspresident of the board and I
looked out over the conference,we were in person and I looked
out at all the people and I hadthat moment that you had
standing there where I said, Isaid God is not limited by my
narrative about myself, becausethe same thing that those doors
(21:51):
will all be closed to me becauseof my you know Bible college
professor background at a smallcollege right and and God is not
limited by the narratives thatwe tell ourselves is exact.
Margie (22:07):
It kind of gives me chills to hear our two stories
and have that moment right, Iknow I know and and those are
the those are the moments thatwe need to sew into ourselves,
even if you're allergic toneedle and thread, like I am.
But we need to throw those intoourselves and really reflect on
(22:33):
those.
I remember early on in myChristian walk-on I had some
amazing discipleship, a gal thatjust walked with me and she
would all the time talk about Ican do all things through Christ
, who strengthens me, and thatit is God that gives us our
gifts and abilities to use andto move forward in that.
(22:55):
But then there are the daysthat we allow our you know, our
past to just kind of comebubbling up and and overtake the
moment.
And we need to just get betterat recognizing that and
recognizing our thinking aboutthat and then not wanting to
(23:18):
weave that into our story allthe time.
But you know, poor me is a goodone, that one you know I feel
like the victim.
A lot you know about this orthat and I just I go, oh, that's
, that's really not who I wantto be.
And the same thing with beingjust at times feeling like I'm
(23:38):
this tragic little figure andthere's a weird little narrative
, and then saying that's not whoI want to be and I don't think
God made me to be that exactlyso learning to shift and and be
aware that that that we're doingharm to ourselves right.
Janyne (23:59):
Well, you know, I just want to say this is really kind
of an interesting I'm going tobe really vulnerable right here.
Okay, because, because thiswasn't what we were originally
going to talk and we kind ofwent off and did the second part
, and I'm sitting here going, ohmy gosh, this was for me, okay.
And so so I'm sitting here andI'm realizing, because because I
(24:21):
I had to step back this year, Ihad to, I had to set down
everything in order to heal andjust whole other layers of
trauma that that I was not evenaware of in some cases and was
not aware of the impact on me.
And so so I, I I've set down somany things and, like I said in
(24:43):
the first, that this is thefirst podcast back after taking
this long hiatus, and I and Irealizing that I I'm, because of
age and because of thelong-term impact of trauma, in
some ways I am limited goingforward in what I can do, but
but that does not affect whatGod has planned for me now that
(25:07):
I've worked through all thathealing, right.
So I've kind of gone back.
I realized, as I was telling myown narrative, I went, oh my
gosh, I mean, you're sitting onthat couch again, thinking it's
over right, and I'm just goingto sit on my back porch and not
that I'm not happy there.
I love my chickens and theymake me laugh and I just sit and
(25:30):
watch and the birds come and Ijust I absolutely love my life
here where I am, but it doesn'tmean that that the next part of
my life isn't less importantthan the part that I just
completed.
They're they're going to lookvery different from each other,
but they're just as importantand more focused on my writing
(25:52):
than what the last five years,even though I published four
books how can I say I wasn'tfocused on my writing?
It's just different, in adifferent way.
And so I do think that thosenarratives that get embedded in
us and I wonder if, when I moved, after I had lived somewhere
for 10 years as a little girland suddenly was uprooted, all
(26:15):
of my support systems, all of myfriends, all of everything my
church, my community, everythingI lost and then I just got
deposited somewhere else If thatnarrative didn't begin there,
then my life is over.
When changes happen, my life isover, yeah.
Right.
Then I'm just like, oh my gosh,that's what I'm doing again.
(26:40):
That narrative is so deepwithin me that I don't see it as
a pivot, I see it as an end,and that's what.
That's what narratives do to usis they get stuck because of
what has happened to us as aschildren or as adults, and then
and then we get stuck in thatsame narrative again of
(27:02):
believing that it's over, or wecan't do that or that, not
possible.
And so thank you, thank you forcontinuing, now that I've had,
I've had my own little therapyset.
Margie (27:14):
I know having epiphanies on the on the crabby pastor
podcast by golly, that's prettyfunny, it is, it is.
So, yeah, I don't know.
Now I'm sitting here wonderingif I shouldn't rename the
podcast, because what was Ithinking?
What kind of story is thisCrabby bastard?
I don't know.
Well, I want to thank you somuch for being on here again and
(27:39):
for sharing, and our hope isthat, at the end of the day,
that you're going to be reallylooking at the story that you're
telling yourself about yourselfand asking yourself what story
is God writing?
And am I trying to swipe thepencil all the time?
What kind of story are you?
(28:03):
And if you're not sure aboutwhat story God is writing, I
guess I'm going to push a littlefurther and say are you at
peace with letting God hold theblueprint as you walk with God
through this era?
Janyne (28:19):
Yeah, because it's going to be so much better than you
expected.
Hard times, difficult times,absolutely, but it'll take you
to a place you never expected tobe.
And I want to say this isreally funny but what I talked
about about metacognition in thefirst yeah, you just wanted to
say that again.
I wanted to say metacognitionagain.
(28:40):
I love that word.
Okay, just what I just did setdemonstrated what I tried to
explain in the first one.
That was being being curious,thinking about what I was
thinking, and, and because ofthat, then I will not fall into
that self-talk narrative again.
So they both fit together, yeah.
Margie (29:05):
And this is totally unscripted besides.
So, although I have a feelingthat God had a hand for sure,
what do you think?
I don't know.
Well, thank you so much forbeing on the podcast again, and
I love having you here.
Janyne (29:23):
It's always a fun conversation.
Yes, I love this.
Thank you, thank you.
Margie (29:31):
So how do the pieces of your life fit together?
Do they fit together well andthings are humming along just
fine, or are there some piecesthat are tight or absent or just
not fitting the bill.
Absent or just not fitting thebill?
(29:53):
This is your invitation to joinme in my glass workshop for a
video series, where I am goingto do a stained glass project
while I talk to you aboutsustainability and building
sustainability into your heartand into your life.
So I am going to be doing myart, which is a form of
self-care, and I'm going toinvite you into that space with
(30:15):
me and I'm going to chat.
I'm going to chat aboutself-care and I'm going to show
you how I create.
And there's a nifty, niftyanalogy Stained glass seems to
be a very good metaphor for whatI want to talk about.
So I'd love for you to join me.
To do that, to opt in, I'llneed you to email me at
(30:38):
crabbypastor at gmailcom.
That's crabbypastor at gmailcom.
So you won't want to miss thisdot com.
So you won't want to miss this.
You definitely won't want tomiss this.
So, so make a plan to join mein the glass workshop.
Are you wondering whether yourfatigue, your lack of motivation
(31:04):
, your lack of interest, isburnout Maybe.
I just wanted to let you knowthat I have a resource on the
website, margiebricecom that'sB-R-Y-C-E MargieBricecom, and it
is a burnout questionnaire freefor you to download, and kind
(31:31):
of self-assess and get a senseof where you're at.
There are questions that notonly ask about what you're going
through but maybe how oftenyou're experiencing it, and
that's kind of a key to whereyou might be, because you have
to know where you are in orderto chart a course forward.
(31:51):
And most pastors who experiencepastors and ministry leaders
who experience burnout rarelyknow that that's where they're
at until they're well into it.
And if you're unsure about thatlittle statistic, so far,
everybody that I've interviewedon this podcast who has
(32:15):
experienced burnout, when Iasked that kind of question,
they're like, yeah, I didn'tknow that's where I was at.
So again, go to margiebricecomit's on the homepage of the
website and you can get yourburnout questionnaire and kind
of see where you're at.
(32:36):
Hey friends, the Krabby Pastorpodcast is sponsored by Bryce
Art Glass and you can find thaton Facebook I make stained glass
as part of my self-care andalso by Bryce Coaching, where I
coach ministry leaders andbusiness leaders, and so the
(32:56):
funds that I generate fromcoaching and from making stained
glass is what is supportingthis podcast, and I will have
opportunities for you to be apart of sponsoring me and, as
always, you can do the buy me acup of coffee thing in the show
(33:19):
notes.
But I will have some other waysthat you can be a part of
getting the word out about theimportance of healthy self-care
for ministry leaders.
Hey, thanks for listening.
(33:42):
It is my deep desire andpassion to champion issues of
sustainability in ministry andfor your life, so I'm here to
help.
I stepped back from pastoralministry and I feel called to
help ministry leaders create andcultivate sustainability in
their lives so that they can gothe distance with God and
(34:02):
whatever plans that God has foryou.
I would love to help, I wouldconsider it an honor and, in all
things, make sure you connectto these sustainability
practices you know, so that youdon't become the Crabby Pastor.
Thank you.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.