September 25, 2024 • 43 mins
How do we navigate the turbulent waters of church polarization and foster unity? Join me, Margie Bryce, along with Michael Bischoff from Soul Leader Resources, as we tackle this pressing issue on the Crabby Pastor podcast.
With more denominations than you can count, the church is more divided than ever. We reflect on Jesus' prayer for oneness in John 17, and consider how societal instincts to identify enemies contribute to further fractures. Election seasons and post-COVID tensions have only heightened these divides, but there are new approaches pastors can take to foster a more unified community.
Michael and I explore how to manage the dynamics at play while fostering a relationship with God that transcends fear.
We also take a deep look at recognizing authoritarian and narcissistic leadership within the church. Identifying traits such as the use of fear, the creation of in-groups and out-groups, and the suppression of dissent that can help pastors self-reflect and avoid these pitfalls. Michael shares valuable resources for further understanding, and we emphasize the importance of inclusivity and holistic spiritual formation. Additionally, we address the critical issue of burnout among ministry leaders, offering tools and advice for self-assessment and recovery. Don't become the "Crabby Pastor"—listen in for insights on maintaining healthy self-care practices and fostering a thriving church community.
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Margie
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Margie (00:01):
Hey there, it's Margie Bryce, your host of the Crabby
Pastor podcast, where we talkabout all things sustainability,
whether it's sustainability inministry, in your personal life
and we acknowledge that thechurch is in a transitional time
, so we hit topics there, toothat are going to stretch your
(00:22):
mind and the way you lead,especially how you lead yourself
, so that you don't become thecrabby pastor.
And it's Margie Bryce with theCrabby Pastor podcast, here with
you today, and I think we'regoing to get divisive.
(00:43):
No, I don't know, maybe youjust have to listen and decide
for yourself.
I'm here with Michael Bischoff,with Soul Leader, and we're
going to talk about this crazyera in which we find ourselves.
I always like to refer to anyelection season as that silly
season.
Some people take offense atthat, but I do have a spiritual
(01:07):
gift that you should be aware of, and that's the ability to
offend everybody in the room,regardless of which way they
lean on any particular issue atthe same time.
I really think that's some kindof spiritual gift.
Michael (01:21):
That's awesome.
Margie (01:22):
Yeah, isn't it?
It's just kind of like mydisclaimer now, so I'm going to
annoy you.
You know, what I mean, right?
So, michael, you've been herewith us before, but please take
a moment to reintroduce yourselfand tell us how you serve the
church.
Michael (01:40):
Yeah, thanks.
I just want to chime in herebecause one of my mentors used
to say you're going to need toforgive me by what I don't mean
by what I say, because elsewe're stepping on toes all the
time, right, and people assumewe mean something when we often
don't.
And yeah, my name is MichaelBischoff.
I am the founder and kind oflead consultant and coach with
(02:07):
Soul Leader Resources, anorganization I founded 24 years
ago, and I did that because,after being in pastoral ministry
many years, I pastored for 30years in total and also did Soul
Leader at the same time but Ijust found there were so many
issues that pastors and leadersand missionaries and
denominations and seminarystudents were struggling with
(02:28):
and I wanted to be able to comealongside and see if I could
offer some help.
That seemed to be really a giftthat God had given me was to
come alongside leaders andencourage them, and I've been
doing that for 24 years at SoulLeader and even some years
before that, and still get tohang out with a whole bunch of
churches and even do someinterim pastoring in them at
times and absolutely love beingable to bring encouragement to
(02:50):
leaders.
Margie (02:52):
Well, thank you so much for being willing to chat again,
and I know we had talked abouta list of things the first time
you were on and this topic ofwell, we kind of have lumped a
few things together here.
But the divisive time thatwe're in, the polarity that we
seem to experience, and whetherit's an election, whatever the
(03:17):
topic is, and how can we helppastors to think a little
differently about this, to helpthem push through and persevere
through these times?
I mean even because the topicsyou gave me are kind of
post-COVID related, but some ofthis was really rampant in the
(03:40):
COVID era.
You know, all you had to do waseither show up with or without
a mask somewhere.
And it just people got reallywicky about the whole thing and
I sort of understand.
I mean, I had friends tellingme that they were wearing a mask
and for heaven's sakes, younever know whether somebody has
(04:03):
had a double lung transplant themonth before.
You just don't know.
But people would come up behindthem and one of my friends in
particular does have a seriousautoimmune thing and people
would come up behind them andkind of cough at them.
These are people not wearing amask.
And I thought, well, that'sjust.
I mean these are people notwearing a mask and I thought,
(04:25):
well, that's just.
I mean, what do we have to sayabout people?
Michael (04:29):
Right, right, well, yeah, it makes me think if we go
all the way back to scripture,to John 17,
right In the high priestlyprayer and Jesus prays the Lord
that they may be one as we areone, and there's this wonderful,
beautiful prayer for unity.
And then you think of thechurch from that time on post
(04:50):
Jesus, first century, secondcentury and it's not long before
the groups just start to divide.
And I don't know what it iscurrently, but every year the
handbook on denominations comesout and it's somewhere above
40,000 different denominations.
So we've split it apart prettygood and we've not done a very
good job at being one.
So you know, throughout all oftime I think we've always
(05:12):
struggled with unity.
Seeing things the same way, wewant to be different and we like
to disagree with others andeven sometimes make the other an
enemy.
Recently I heard someone sayingthat if you study I think it's
sociology from a tribalismperspective, that in order to
(05:33):
protect the tribe you alwaysneed an enemy.
And that makes me realize muchof what has happened in the
church is sometimes identifyingwhat we think is the enemy
that's going to harm us, destroyus, lead others astray, and so
much of our energy is just putinto that, making that person
(05:55):
the other or the enemy, orassuming they're against us,
rather than starting from aplace of unity, like I think
Jesus wanted us to do in John 17.
So I kind of smile right whenwe even think about COVID,
because while it did get worseduring COVID right the
polarization, if we want to justcall it something many of our
churches had a good sense ofunity prior to that.
(06:18):
We'll just talk about ourindividual local churches
because we know denominationshave split over time over so
many issues.
It's not even funny.
Margie (06:25):
No, I got stuck.
I got stuck back at your thingabout the handbook of
denominations.
There's a handbook ofdenominations.
Michael (06:33):
Oh yeah, and it's published every year.
I don't know if it's still asit used to be, but every year it
would come out.
Why?
Because there's probably acouple thousand more and so yeah
, so, but if we focused even onour own church, it did seem to
be easier in a post-pandemic erato find unity, at least in our
church, and that's not alwaysthe case.
But we kind of tolerated peoplewho were different than us, or
(06:56):
at least we knew there werepeople with different political
views and some had maybe evendifferent doctrinal views, and
they saw things differently.
We just seemed to have moreacceptance for each other.
And then something happened inthe midst of the pandemic, and I
think there are some rootcauses to that, and we can talk
about some of those that createdin the average local church
greater polarization than mostleaders had ever seen, or
(07:19):
definitely what most leadersfelt equipped to deal with, and
that created this problem.
Margie (07:26):
Yeah, and it does get to the place and the point with
some people where you're unsurehow much you should or could say
with them and I think that thatputs up barriers to
relationship, which is that'ssad.
Michael (07:49):
It is.
Yeah, it is sad Because, right,you have people on one side
that are trying to be sensitiveand do the most loving thing
toward those around us wasthinking that we're living out
that biblical mandate to loveour neighbor as ourself and be
cautious and careful, andsometimes that meant putting a
mask on or getting a vaccinationor whatever, or not meeting.
(08:10):
And then you have those thatdon't really want to be told
what to do.
It's not that they are tryingto be unloving, but maybe the
greater value comes along inindependence and not having
government or anybody reallytell you what to do.
So freedom is important to them.
And now you've got the makingsof what polarization is looking
(08:32):
for, right, differences ofopinion like that, and it just I
think it was the perfectbreeding ground for polarization
to happen.
And you throw into that tocertain types of leaders that
realize that if you came atthings in a well, maybe a more
authoritarian way, that otherswould then flock to that,
because they wanted someone totell them what to do or probably
(08:57):
a better way to say it, theyneeded someone to calm their
anxiety.
And there's been sociologicalstudies that have been done that
I think are pretty fascinating.
There's a Canadian psychologistand professor named Bob
Altemeier who, in a book hewrote, called the Authoritarians
, and he writes that when thereare high levels of anxiety and
stress, somewhere in theneighborhood of 30% of the
(09:21):
population are attracted toauthoritarian leaders who calm
their anxiety.
So now again we have themakings for polarization,
because those that really feelthe need for their anxiety to be
calmed are going to look for acertain type of leader that's
going to speak with authority orstrength or truthfulness or,
(09:43):
you know, not compromise.
They're just looking for that.
And many churches grew who hadthat type of leader, or I'm
going to even say certainleaders chose to become that
kind of leader, realizing thatthey could see growth with that
tactic.
Margie (09:59):
And you know, this gets really kind of weirdly
interesting, because I was at atraining Enneagram training and
it was with Suzanne Stabile, andthe topic was asked which one
of the numbers is the mostprevalent in the culture?
And actually it's a six andthese people are, and she said
(10:22):
it was more than 50%.
And I thought, what Are youkidding me?
And so then, because I comefrom a marketing, communications
and an advertising backgroundbefore ministry, I started
thinking, oh my gosh, this iswhy you see advertising the way
it is.
You know, hurry and get this oryou're going to miss out, or
(10:45):
it's just definitely fear basedbecause it goes at that.
And then if you throw in thingslike freed men and family
systems theory and you look atpeople's anxiety and how well
they are able to calm themselvesor not calm themselves, you
(11:06):
know it's easier just to havesomebody take care of that for
you.
And Friedman would probably saywe're a society in regression
right now.
Anyway, that things, that thisis just the way things are
headed right now, where peopleare challenged.
And you would think because Ithink it's reasonable to
(11:26):
consider that perhaps churchwould be a place to go to have
your anxieties and your fear.
Michael (11:37):
Yeah.
Margie (11:38):
Not so much dealt with.
I don't want to say dealt with.
Dealt with, I don't want to saythey it is.
It would be an outlet for youto sit for a minute and really
put things into properperspective with your
relationship with God.
And who do I really think?
But quite often we don't stoplong enough to do that kind of
(12:02):
work in terms of fear.
But so then the next best thingis, if I don't want to manage
myself, handle myself properly,I'm going to look for somebody
to do it for me.
And I was always told that anygood pastor is not going to let
you try to ride their coattailsto heaven, but any good pastor
(12:24):
is going to push you to arelationship with Christ.
Michael (12:30):
Yeah, yeah, that's good .
You know it's sad because youknow I've heard many times that
the number one command inscripture, or the command used
more times than any other I'venever done this study to see if
it is, but I assume that it isis fear not or do not fear,
right.
Scripture tells us to not fearand yet we tend to live in such
(12:51):
an environment of fear andthat's really something I did
see in both the pandemic worldwe lived in and in the
post-pandemic world.
Still there's a much higherdegree of fear.
I hear that in the kinds ofsermons and messages that are
being preached, because we workwith a lot of churches, a lot of
pastors, so I'm trying tolisten for what's out there.
I hear it even in the way thatworship is led and the things
(13:14):
that worship leaders might sayare those that are praying from
the front Like what I need.
Margie (13:19):
some examples here of this.
Michael (13:21):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, I must not go to a church
that does this, but Well,that's probably a good thing
that you don't right.
But it's easy when you get up infront of people.
It's easy to kind of play intothat fear by somehow making
what's out there seem morefearful than it really is.
And that's what I hear kind ofin prayers often is oh God, it's
(13:45):
so bad out there, right, it'sso scary.
We have so much to face and wedon't know if we're going to be
able to do it.
And we need you to rise up andconquer it all, rather than to
realize that if the kingdom ofGod is active and living around
us, that's a perfectly safeplace to be.
That was a quote that DallasWillard used to say when he'd
(14:08):
talk about the divine conspiracy.
He would just literally say andit's the one he got the most
pushback on.
Actually that he would say isthat living in the kingdom of
God is a perfectly safe place tobe.
Yet that doesn't work well ifyou want people to live in fear
and when you realize that if youcreate and increase their fear,
(14:28):
they might need you more, theymight need your church more,
they might give more money toyour church or they might
believe what you say or followyou.
So again, this is the way.
Maybe an authoritarian leadermight use fear as a real or
concocted enemy to help peoplefollow more strongly, and that's
(14:50):
not helpful because thatincreases the polarization right
.
And then I think one of thethings I see many pastors come
to me and in our coaching or inour relationships or training or
whatever they're saying, theydon't know what to do with all
the people in their church thatcome to them and are asking them
to preach on topics, or topreach on certain topics with a
(15:11):
different kind of authority thanthey typically do.
Why?
Because the people are fearfuland they want their pastor to
more boldly speak about certainthings that didn't happen to the
extent four, five, six yearsago that we see it happening
today.
And now many people not onlyask for it, but there's a little
(15:32):
bit of an agenda, even thatPastor, if you're not going to
do this.
A little bit of an agenda, eventhat pastor, if you're not going
to do this, I'm going to godown the street to the church
that is doing this, once againcreating polarization, because
if certain kind of people leaveand they go to a certain kind of
church that's down the streetwith a certain kind of leader
saying a certain kind of thing,now what that leaves behind is a
different kind of person that'swilling to stay at that church.
(15:55):
See so even the kinds ofchurches that we see have
different constituencies withless diversity in them because
of this polarization.
Margie (16:05):
Well, that's disturbing.
Michael (16:07):
It is.
On a number of levels.
Margie (16:10):
And I remember pastoring in my first church and one of
the congregants did come to meand just kind of made a casual
observation and said, pastor,you don't preach on any of the
social issues.
And I said well, you know, Iwill when we get to the place
where people understand what itmeans to be a disciple of Jesus.
(16:33):
I said because there's peoplewho have been in church more
than 20 years and if you askthem to describe what it means
to be a disciple of Jesus, youknow you hear like the crickets
chirping.
And I said, and I find thatvery, very disturbing.
So, you know, when you got tothe end of your sermon, sermon
(16:56):
and you're going to give the,here's what it looks like
because of all the rest of thestuff I already just said to you
, here's what it looks like tobe a disciple.
In response to that, you know,then that would be the picture
that I would paint.
And I thought, you know, if wewere to really understand what
it means to be disciples, Ithink a lot of conversations
(17:20):
would look differently.
I mean, I don't project to sayhow or anything.
One of my seminary professorsdid say that the church in North
America is in a crisis ofimmaturity.
Crisis of immaturity and Ithought, well, you're my new
(17:42):
best friend just for saying that.
Because I thought, how is it?
You've been to church that longand you don't understand some
of the real basics of theChristian faith?
Instead, it becomes more aboutsocial principles and I'm
actually starting to see and Idon't know if this is connected
to the election cycle or seasonthat we're about to start or are
(18:03):
in, or something that peopleare saying, well, I'm not going
to get into, that's a culturalissue and I'm not going to get
into that.
And I thought, oh my goodness,I've never, ever, heard those
words fall out of people'smouths.
It's rather shocking.
Michael (18:20):
Yeah.
Margie (18:21):
I don't know if that's going to stem the tide with some
of the divisiveness I mean it'srampant on social media and
here's where they go on socialmedia Unless you believe as a
Christian in the same way that Ithink about being a Christian,
then you're not a Christian.
And even Christ said you can'tsay to another person I think
(18:46):
it's Raca R-A-C-A, meaning theMargie Bryce translation of that
word is good for nothing.
You can't say somebody's notgood for anything, right, no use
for you.
Um, so it really calls us toreally examine some things it
does how do you know you, I amsitting under.
(19:07):
I'll know I'm sitting under anauthoritarian leader when you
have any kind of oh, yeah, yeah,yeah, that's a good way to ask
for it.
So then, pastors could say am Ithis?
I don't know.
Michael (19:21):
Yeah, no, I think it's worth our study.
I know this can be exhaustingfor pastors that are already
trying to shepherd their churchand teach and lead.
But to dive into a topic thatreally none of us have ever been
equipped to study, that feelsreally exhausting.
So I get that from the front.
I've been even tell to study.
That feels really exhausting.
So I get that from the front.
I've been even tell me that howhard it is.
But I have found to at leastget minimally educated.
(19:43):
You know that book by BobAltemeier that I mentioned.
You can Google his name and Ithink it's even free as an
online download.
Another book Brian McLarenwrote a book called the Second
Pandemic and authoritarianism inyour, your Future and that's a
real cheap or I don't know ifit's free or real cheap on his
website, but I found that just areal good summary.
(20:04):
That was helpful to me inunderstanding some things,
because he pointed out even somethings like that.
Authoritarian leaders arecharacterized by the first thing
we talked about already fear.
They know how to use fear fortheir own ends or create
divisions with an in-group andan out-group.
So if you see a leader doingthat and almost like creating
(20:25):
people pointing fingers thatthose people are in the
out-group, definitely ridiculingthem.
Well, we might not see that inthe church quite as much you do
to a certain extent, but wedefinitely see that in the
political realm Name-calling,finger-pointing, really unkind
comments being said.
So look for things like that.
Distorting or distracting fromthe truth is another
(20:48):
characteristic.
That's very common Intentionalmisinformation, if you sense a
leader is giving information butyour gut is saying really I'm
not sure if that's true, ormaybe you fact check it, because
we can all do that prettyquickly now by uh, you know,
just our phones right in our lap.
We might be listening tosomeone and we can fact check
that pretty quickly.
(21:08):
Or the suppression of dissentis another characteristic.
Um, if someone questions theirbehavior, that leader's behavior
an authoritarian leader doesn'twant to be questioned, so
they're going to try to put downthat dissent.
There's not an ability forpeople to have different
opinions in that environment.
(21:28):
But I think the church is aplace where people from all
kinds of opinions can come andshare.
Again, polarization makeseverything about either or it's
either this way or that way, andthis way is right, or you,
which is usually our way, andthat way is wrong, which is
their way, so you better chooseour way.
But it's not about either orit's about both end, and I think
(21:50):
looking at the gospel yourealize, kind of like you were
saying earlier, margie, thegospel is a more of a both end
gospel, where it's not aboutexclusivity or exclusion.
It literally is about Jesus,who was inclusive of everyone.
I mean, that's my favoritedefinition for the kingdom of
God, it's the availability forall people, that heaven's
(22:13):
available for everyone, and Ithink that's a beautiful way to
be able to look at it and tounderstand the gospel.
I think if you go look in Mark 115, you'll see Jesus describing
the gospel as the availabilityof the kingdom of God for
everyone.
Well, to me that's a veryinclusive thing.
So, just by its very nature,polarization excludes and
(22:34):
chooses a side and creates fearand distorts truth and creates
division and calls names and ohright, that's a problem of
discipleship.
You did say it well, we areincredibly immature.
Another way would be ourformation, our spiritual
formation, or what I like tocall our holistic formation, is
(22:55):
badly lacking and we really needto address it at that level.
Margie (23:00):
Sure, and as you were going down your list of many
things there, I was wonderingthis looks like a list of how to
know you're in a cult.
And then I wondered, as you'respeaking, I'm wondering is this
like narcissism too thrown in?
And definitely it's a big stewand you just stir it all up and
(23:23):
it just doesn't make anything.
Michael (23:26):
Yeah, I would say not every narcissistic leader is an
authoritarian leader, butprobably most authoritarian
leaders are narcissistic leaders, if I were to say it kind of in
one way that I see so andthere's some good books that
have been written on that.
Um, I help churches that haveeither had to recover from
leaders with degrees ofnarcissism or whatever the case.
(23:50):
So you can actually google that.
Chuck de gro's written a reallygood book on that.
Poles is an author also who haswritten a good book on that
subject, on narcissistic pastors.
So if you sense any of that, ifyou're well one, if you are a
leader, first we got to take thelog out of our own eyes.
(24:11):
I've had to do this many timesand look for my own narcissism
right, my own tendency to useother people for my own ends in
order to validate myself, andand, and sometimes we were
trained to do that.
I know I was trained to be anarcissistic leader, so it
really starts with us.
Margie (24:28):
You were trained you think you were trained to be in
a.
Michael (24:30):
I was trained Not.
Yeah, not consciously.
Yeah, I didn't take narcissismone-on-one.
I would just say in my earlyyears of leadership development
and in seminary, as well as justeven the church that I was a
part of, so many leaders werevery highly narcissistic and the
(24:52):
way they trained young leadersand the way they trained young
leaders, I think, drew out thosethings in them, including me.
And I didn't know that until Ileft that church and then was in
my first full-time ministryexperience and then crashed and
burned in eight months ofclinical depression, which I
think is a story I told when Iwas on your podcast before, so
people can go back and listen tothat podcast if they're
(25:14):
interested in hearing that story.
But that caused me to realizemy own narcissism.
So I think, like Jesus said,take the log out of your own eye
.
We have to start with ourselves.
Become more self-aware, bereflective to see.
Am I creating some of thepolarization?
Am I causing some of theseproblems?
So leaders need to do thatdefinitely and to watch others
in the church that haveinfluence that might do that.
(25:36):
That helps us be good shepherds, because I think we have more
people potentially in ourchurches creating polarization
as well.
But then the other levelobviously is just those sitting
in the pew, if you will, the laypeople of the church, those
that attend, for you, if you'reone of those folks, to be highly
aware of the leaders that yousubmit yourselves to and that
(25:58):
you realize that there are a lot, a lot of leaders in the
Christian church with highdegrees of narcissism, and it's
a sad reality, but thestatistics have shown it to be
true.
It's why we have a lot ofdivision in churches and a lot
of problems.
It's one of the things I'vecommitted my ministry to doing
is helping churches get healthyand recover from things like
(26:21):
that, and it's sad but it's true.
It's part of the humancondition and so knowing what to
do about it is extremelyimportant.
But I do think so.
I'm glad you brought it upbecause, yeah, the narcissistic
element in leadership definitelycontributes to polarization and
what happens there, and itdoesn't mean they might not grow
a great church, because I thinksome of the biggest churches in
(26:43):
existence have been grown thatway by highly narcissistic
leaders, and that's true ofcompanies as well.
Narcissistic leaders make greatleaders to grow things big, but
I don't think they're leadingin the way of Jesus and they
leave a wake behind them.
Margie (27:00):
And bigger isn't always better.
Michael (27:10):
No, no, I know that flies in the face of a lot in
North America right, right,right, especially Texas.
Margie (27:12):
No, you know I'm not.
You know I'm the state of Texashere.
But I think what was sad for me, having served in the ranks of
the United Methodist Church, isI had a congregation that was
mixed.
I had people that would come tome and we'd have conversation
(27:33):
and I could tell from theirconversation that they perceived
that I was well safe to talk toand they were more conservative
leaning.
And then I would have peoplecome to me who are more liberal
leaning and I they felt verycomfortable and safe to talk to
me and they could they assumethat I was more liberal, leading
(27:56):
too, you know.
And I thought, well, isn't thiskind of interesting here that
they don't seem to know for sure?
And that was by design on mypart, because I'm pastor over
everybody that was there and Iwas busy banging the
discipleship drum.
This is what it was to be adisciple was busy banging the
(28:17):
discipleship drum.
This is what it was to be adisciple.
The sad thing is was that I knewthere was coming a moment when
you would have to pick a side, aor B, and I was incredibly sad
for the congregations that weremixed, that they were going to
be the ones that would strugglethe most, and sad because they
(28:38):
had figured out how to do lifetogether and it was okay.
You know, and I thought I'm sureJesus is crying in a corner
somewhere.
You know, over things like that, over how we kind of stumble
over ourselves and undermine andand all that kind of thing.
I know for me ourselves andundermine and all that kind of
(28:59):
thing.
I know for me, now that I'm notin pastoral ministry, I'm
pretty picky about the kind ofleader that I want to let have
influence over me and I've beenblessed that I've been in places
where there is an aspect ofhumility that is not flashed
around like it's a badge ofhonor or something, but just
(29:23):
very subtly.
You can just pick up that there, that this is a person that has
gotten understanding ofhumility and and kind of
naturally exudes it.
Michael (29:33):
Right.
Margie (29:34):
But again, you know we don't see that in the political
realm Right anywhere and Iunderstand you do have to have a
bit of an ego to say that I'mgoing to stand up here and say
stuff to all y'all.
There is that piece of it, butat the same token, as leaders
(29:55):
who are following after God'spurposes.
There still has to be thatunderstanding that I'm up here
over all y'all, but I am underthe influence of the Lord, God
most high.
Michael (30:08):
Right, right.
Margie (30:10):
Oh, that's.
That's an ideal, maybe, I don'tknow.
Michael (30:15):
Yeah, yeah, no, it's so true, I mean, and we see it so
clearly in the political realmas you were talking.
It just made me think.
You know, in our country we'rereally poor at choosing
something that's in the middle.
We're better at going oh, Idon't like this way.
We've been governed for fouryears or eight years or whatever
.
So I'm going to swing to theother side, or let's bring in
(30:36):
that kind of leader, and then wego back and forth from pole to
pole.
Right, there's very little inthe middle, we don't have a
strong third party government,and so that's the way our
political system just works, andthat's why it's just so extreme
in the way that goes back andforth, rather than trying to
find a more moderate approach tomany of the issues.
(30:58):
That would be much healthier ifwe were able to find that happy
middle.
But in churches I think churchleaders can definitely make that
choice we can seek what'ssometimes being called now the
courageous middle, right?
Because if there are poles andwe've seen stream polarization
what does it look like to findthe courageous middle and live
(31:20):
in that space, rather than beingeither or, like I said earlier,
for it to be both and, andthat's challenging.
It definitely has itschallenges, but I think it is
such a good goal to be able tolook and see how to, rather than
choosing an extreme view onthis or that.
How can I actually talk aboutall sides in a way that shows
(31:45):
where the wisdom really lies andmaybe what God's wisdom is in
that, or allow people then tohave the freedom to choose what
their leaning might be and thento help people coexist together
with some different views?
I even find it funny thatchurches you know have such a
strong or long doctrinalstatement.
(32:06):
Right, here's our beliefstatement, doctrinal statement,
and they post that on thewebsite.
It's often one of their firstpages on their website and I
thought you know I'm not surehow healthy that is, because
what that says is then, unlessyou believe every you know jot
and tittle of this doctrinalstatement, you're not welcome
here.
Do you really want to say thatSome churches do?
(32:27):
I get it, but how differentcould it be if you just
simplified it down to somethinglike the teaching of Jesus and
the apostles?
Or you know that we believethat the kingdom of God is a
very broad and inclusive space,like I was talking about earlier
, when Jesus defines the gospelin Mark 1 and 15.
(32:47):
What if we were to say that andthen allow differences to
coexist without contention, sothat people don't call each
other names, raka, like human orwhatever right?
But we tried to cultivate aspirit of openness, humility,
listening, you know, a goodactive listening, question,
(33:08):
asking, sitting with attention,being able to have discussion,
learn from each other.
One phrase I've seen used morerecently now by some churches
that are trying to do this is athird way, that, rather than it
having to be that way or thatway, we're going to identify as
a third way space that realizeswe're going to have people on
that side and we're going tohave people on that side, and I
(33:30):
think that's a really good wayto look at it.
Margie (33:32):
So yeah, or we could just call it via media.
Michael (33:36):
Yeah, the via media right.
Margie (33:38):
They did that in England right when they couldn't say
Catholic or Protestant.
Let's have a middle way here.
Michael (33:43):
And.
Margie (33:44):
I think that's the history of the Church of England
maybe.
Yeah, yeah, I don't know wherethat's looking at you know, I'm
sure this is a hereticaldiscussion somewhere.
Michael (33:54):
I'm sure it is.
Margie (33:56):
Somebody's going to say well, this is heretical, but I
just, you know, after you spenda lot of time, you don't even
have to spend a lot, because Idon't spend a lot of time just
snippets here and there onsocial media.
I just think, oh, come onpeople, can't we do a little
better than this?
And I don't know whether theythink that people think that
(34:18):
they're talking to a homogeneousgroup or because nobody's mind
has changed on social media,really.
Yeah know, I don't I don't knowanybody that says this mean
change my life even thoughthat's a big thing to say in the
culture.
Michael (34:33):
This is changing life, you know right seriously.
Margie (34:36):
Your dish soap change your life I know we're going to
be a telling culture, right?
Michael (34:40):
we have opinions and we want to tell others our
opinions.
And pastors often ask me, orthe leaders I coach, like, how
do I approach this?
And probably the thing I saymore than any other is learn to
ask good questions, and that'swhat we, as coaches, learn,
right, you learn to ask goodquestions.
So I think all leaders, allpastors, need to learn to become
question askers.
(35:00):
So if you want a place to start, rather than feel like you have
to create your own opinion oneverything or study every issue
or come across authoritativelyon whatever the case would be,
learn to ask questions.
We have a good example of thatin Jesus, right?
Jesus, when asked questions,would often respond with another
(35:20):
question, or he was just themaster question asker, and yet
we don't pay much attention tothat.
Maybe we all need to get intoour Bibles and do a study on the
way Jesus asked questions, whyhe asked them that way and the
results that came out as aresult.
So if we were to startsomewhere, I think, to ease
polarization, learn to ask goodquestions that help people sit
(35:44):
in the tension and not feel likethey have to exert their
opinion in a way that edgesother people out so that they're
only around people that agreewith them.
That's just not what communityis.
Right henry now, and used tosay that community is the place
where the person that you leastwant to live with always lives.
(36:04):
That means there's disagreement, there's tension, it's messy
right and, pastors, we need tocultivate that with each other.
Margie (36:12):
Yeah, I know, and in my last church I served in the new,
and that was before I wastrained as a coach, but I was
before.
I was a newspaper reporter andsome of the marketing and PR
work required me to askquestions of people I was
interviewing.
So I had to ask the right kindof questions to get them talking
(36:35):
, to get information, tounderstand better.
So that was part of what I waspackaged with already.
So they knew that if they cameto me with something, I it was
going to be a really why do youthink that?
Tell me more about this or that.
I mean, I was always and, andlook what I'm doing now and now
it is.
You know, I coaching is a greatoutlet for that and it and it's
(36:58):
a helpful and useful tool.
It's good to be curious aboutother people and why they think
the way they do, because there'susually something that's
usually kind of an interestingstory besides yes right people
are kind of interesting.
Well, I'm going to leave us hereand just you know, I think this
is the kind of podcast that youjust listen to maybe a few
(37:21):
times share with a friend, andjust kind of listen to maybe a
few times share with a friendand just kind of mull over where
you think Jesus might fit.
And I'm not saying Jesus fits,and everything comes out of my
mouth and no way would I saythat.
There are some days I tell you,don't even follow me to the
grocery store you so you know, Imean take a moment and just
(37:42):
kind of chew on the ideas andthink about it and see what God
says.
Thanks so much for thisconversation, michael, and I'm
sure we'll have you back onagain.
Michael (37:56):
You're welcome.
Thanks, Margie.
Margie (38:02):
So how do the pieces of your life fit together?
Do they fit together well andthings are humming along just
fine, or are there some piecesthat are tight or absent or just
not fitting the bill?
This is your invitation to joinme in my glass workshop for a
(38:24):
video series, where I am goingto do a stained glass project
while I talk to you aboutsustainability and building
sustainability into your heartand into your life.
So I am going to be doing myart, which is a form of
self-care, and I'm going toinvite you into that space with
(38:46):
me and I'm going to chat.
I'm going to chat aboutself-care and I'm going to show
you how I create, and there's anifty, nifty analogy Stained
glass seems to be a very goodmetaphor for what I want to talk
about.
So I'd love for you to join me.
To do that, to opt in, I'llneed you to email me at
(39:09):
crabbypastor at gmailcom.
That's crabbypastor at gmailcom.
So you won't want to miss this.
So you won't want to miss this.
You definitely won't want tomiss this.
(39:30):
So make a plan to join me inthe glass workshop.
Are you wondering whether yourfatigue, your lack of motivation
, your lack of interest isburnout?
(39:50):
Maybe?
I just wanted to let you knowthat I have a resource on the
website, margiebryce dot comthat's B-R-Y-C-E MargieBryce dot
com and it is a burnoutquestionnaire free for you to
download, and kind ofself-assess and get a sense of
where you're at.
There are questions that notonly ask about what you're going
through but maybe how oftenyou're experiencing it and
(40:12):
that's kind of a key to whereyou might be, because you have
to know where you are in orderto chart a course forward.
And most pastors who experiencepastors and ministry leaders
who experience burnout rarelyknow that that's where they're
(40:34):
at until they're well into it.
And if you're unsure about thatlittle statistic, so far,
everybody that I've interviewedon this podcast who has
experienced burnout, when I askthat kind of question, they're
like, yeah, I didn't know that'swhere I was at.
So again, go to MargieBryce dotcom it's on the homepage of the
(40:56):
website and you can get yourburnout questionnaire and kind
of see where you're at.
Hey friends, the Crabby Pastorpodcast is sponsored by Bryce
Art Glass and you can find thaton Facebook.
I make stained glass as part ofmy self-care and also by Bryce
(41:21):
Coaching, where I coach ministryleaders and business leaders,
and so the funds that I generatefrom coaching and from making
stained glass is what issupporting this podcast and I
will have opportunities for youto be a part of sponsoring me
(41:43):
and, as always, you can do thebuy me a cup of coffee thing in
the show notes.
But I will have some other waysthat you can be a part of
getting the word out about theimportance of healthy self-care
(42:35):
for ministry leaders.
So I'm here to help.
I stepped back from past honorand, in all things, make sure
you connect to thesesustainability practices you
know, so that you don't becomethe Crabby Pastor.
Thank you.
Hey there, it's Margie Bryce, your host of the Crabby
Pastor podcast, where we talkabout all things sustainability,
whether it's sustainability inministry, in your personal life
and we acknowledge that thechurch is in a transitional time
, so we hit topics there, toothat are going to stretch your
(00:22):
mind and the way you lead,especially how you lead yourself
, so that you don't become thecrabby pastor.
And it's Margie Bryce with theCrabby Pastor podcast, here with
you today, and I think we'regoing to get divisive.
(00:43):
No, I don't know, maybe youjust have to listen and decide
for yourself.
I'm here with Michael Bischoff,with Soul Leader, and we're
going to talk about this crazyera in which we find ourselves.
I always like to refer to anyelection season as that silly
season.
Some people take offense atthat, but I do have a spiritual
(01:07):
gift that you should be aware of, and that's the ability to
offend everybody in the room,regardless of which way they
lean on any particular issue atthe same time.
I really think that's some kindof spiritual gift.
Michael (01:21):
That's awesome.
Margie (01:22):
Yeah, isn't it?
It's just kind of like mydisclaimer now, so I'm going to
annoy you.
You know, what I mean, right?
So, michael, you've been herewith us before, but please take
a moment to reintroduce yourselfand tell us how you serve the
church.
Michael (01:40):
Yeah, thanks.
I just want to chime in herebecause one of my mentors used
to say you're going to need toforgive me by what I don't mean
by what I say, because elsewe're stepping on toes all the
time, right, and people assumewe mean something when we often
don't.
And yeah, my name is MichaelBischoff.
I am the founder and kind oflead consultant and coach with
(02:07):
Soul Leader Resources, anorganization I founded 24 years
ago, and I did that because,after being in pastoral ministry
many years, I pastored for 30years in total and also did Soul
Leader at the same time but Ijust found there were so many
issues that pastors and leadersand missionaries and
denominations and seminarystudents were struggling with
(02:28):
and I wanted to be able to comealongside and see if I could
offer some help.
That seemed to be really a giftthat God had given me was to
come alongside leaders andencourage them, and I've been
doing that for 24 years at SoulLeader and even some years
before that, and still get tohang out with a whole bunch of
churches and even do someinterim pastoring in them at
times and absolutely love beingable to bring encouragement to
(02:50):
leaders.
Margie (02:52):
Well, thank you so much for being willing to chat again,
and I know we had talked abouta list of things the first time
you were on and this topic ofwell, we kind of have lumped a
few things together here.
But the divisive time thatwe're in, the polarity that we
seem to experience, and whetherit's an election, whatever the
(03:17):
topic is, and how can we helppastors to think a little
differently about this, to helpthem push through and persevere
through these times?
I mean even because the topicsyou gave me are kind of
post-COVID related, but some ofthis was really rampant in the
(03:40):
COVID era.
You know, all you had to do waseither show up with or without
a mask somewhere.
And it just people got reallywicky about the whole thing and
I sort of understand.
I mean, I had friends tellingme that they were wearing a mask
and for heaven's sakes, younever know whether somebody has
(04:03):
had a double lung transplant themonth before.
You just don't know.
But people would come up behindthem and one of my friends in
particular does have a seriousautoimmune thing and people
would come up behind them andkind of cough at them.
These are people not wearing amask.
And I thought, well, that'sjust.
I mean these are people notwearing a mask and I thought,
(04:25):
well, that's just.
I mean, what do we have to sayabout people?
Michael (04:29):
Right, right, well, yeah, it makes me think if we go
all the way back to scripture,to John 17,
right In the high priestlyprayer and Jesus prays the Lord
that they may be one as we areone, and there's this wonderful,
beautiful prayer for unity.
And then you think of thechurch from that time on post
(04:50):
Jesus, first century, secondcentury and it's not long before
the groups just start to divide.
And I don't know what it iscurrently, but every year the
handbook on denominations comesout and it's somewhere above
40,000 different denominations.
So we've split it apart prettygood and we've not done a very
good job at being one.
So you know, throughout all oftime I think we've always
(05:12):
struggled with unity.
Seeing things the same way, wewant to be different and we like
to disagree with others andeven sometimes make the other an
enemy.
Recently I heard someone sayingthat if you study I think it's
sociology from a tribalismperspective, that in order to
(05:33):
protect the tribe you alwaysneed an enemy.
And that makes me realize muchof what has happened in the
church is sometimes identifyingwhat we think is the enemy
that's going to harm us, destroyus, lead others astray, and so
much of our energy is just putinto that, making that person
(05:55):
the other or the enemy, orassuming they're against us,
rather than starting from aplace of unity, like I think
Jesus wanted us to do in John 17.
So I kind of smile right whenwe even think about COVID,
because while it did get worseduring COVID right the
polarization, if we want to justcall it something many of our
churches had a good sense ofunity prior to that.
(06:18):
We'll just talk about ourindividual local churches
because we know denominationshave split over time over so
many issues.
It's not even funny.
Margie (06:25):
No, I got stuck.
I got stuck back at your thingabout the handbook of
denominations.
There's a handbook ofdenominations.
Michael (06:33):
Oh yeah, and it's published every year.
I don't know if it's still asit used to be, but every year it
would come out.
Why?
Because there's probably acouple thousand more and so yeah
, so, but if we focused even onour own church, it did seem to
be easier in a post-pandemic erato find unity, at least in our
church, and that's not alwaysthe case.
But we kind of tolerated peoplewho were different than us, or
(06:56):
at least we knew there werepeople with different political
views and some had maybe evendifferent doctrinal views, and
they saw things differently.
We just seemed to have moreacceptance for each other.
And then something happened inthe midst of the pandemic, and I
think there are some rootcauses to that, and we can talk
about some of those that createdin the average local church
greater polarization than mostleaders had ever seen, or
(07:19):
definitely what most leadersfelt equipped to deal with, and
that created this problem.
Margie (07:26):
Yeah, and it does get to the place and the point with
some people where you're unsurehow much you should or could say
with them and I think that thatputs up barriers to
relationship, which is that'ssad.
Michael (07:49):
It is.
Yeah, it is sad Because, right,you have people on one side
that are trying to be sensitiveand do the most loving thing
toward those around us wasthinking that we're living out
that biblical mandate to loveour neighbor as ourself and be
cautious and careful, andsometimes that meant putting a
mask on or getting a vaccinationor whatever, or not meeting.
(08:10):
And then you have those thatdon't really want to be told
what to do.
It's not that they are tryingto be unloving, but maybe the
greater value comes along inindependence and not having
government or anybody reallytell you what to do.
So freedom is important to them.
And now you've got the makingsof what polarization is looking
(08:32):
for, right, differences ofopinion like that, and it just I
think it was the perfectbreeding ground for polarization
to happen.
And you throw into that tocertain types of leaders that
realize that if you came atthings in a well, maybe a more
authoritarian way, that otherswould then flock to that,
because they wanted someone totell them what to do or probably
(08:57):
a better way to say it, theyneeded someone to calm their
anxiety.
And there's been sociologicalstudies that have been done that
I think are pretty fascinating.
There's a Canadian psychologistand professor named Bob
Altemeier who, in a book hewrote, called the Authoritarians
, and he writes that when thereare high levels of anxiety and
stress, somewhere in theneighborhood of 30% of the
(09:21):
population are attracted toauthoritarian leaders who calm
their anxiety.
So now again we have themakings for polarization,
because those that really feelthe need for their anxiety to be
calmed are going to look for acertain type of leader that's
going to speak with authority orstrength or truthfulness or,
(09:43):
you know, not compromise.
They're just looking for that.
And many churches grew who hadthat type of leader, or I'm
going to even say certainleaders chose to become that
kind of leader, realizing thatthey could see growth with that
tactic.
Margie (09:59):
And you know, this gets really kind of weirdly
interesting, because I was at atraining Enneagram training and
it was with Suzanne Stabile, andthe topic was asked which one
of the numbers is the mostprevalent in the culture?
And actually it's a six andthese people are, and she said
(10:22):
it was more than 50%.
And I thought, what Are youkidding me?
And so then, because I comefrom a marketing, communications
and an advertising backgroundbefore ministry, I started
thinking, oh my gosh, this iswhy you see advertising the way
it is.
You know, hurry and get this oryou're going to miss out, or
(10:45):
it's just definitely fear basedbecause it goes at that.
And then if you throw in thingslike freed men and family
systems theory and you look atpeople's anxiety and how well
they are able to calm themselvesor not calm themselves, you
(11:06):
know it's easier just to havesomebody take care of that for
you.
And Friedman would probably saywe're a society in regression
right now.
Anyway, that things, that thisis just the way things are
headed right now, where peopleare challenged.
And you would think because Ithink it's reasonable to
(11:26):
consider that perhaps churchwould be a place to go to have
your anxieties and your fear.
Michael (11:37):
Yeah.
Margie (11:38):
Not so much dealt with.
I don't want to say dealt with.
Dealt with, I don't want to saythey it is.
It would be an outlet for youto sit for a minute and really
put things into properperspective with your
relationship with God.
And who do I really think?
But quite often we don't stoplong enough to do that kind of
(12:02):
work in terms of fear.
But so then the next best thingis, if I don't want to manage
myself, handle myself properly,I'm going to look for somebody
to do it for me.
And I was always told that anygood pastor is not going to let
you try to ride their coattailsto heaven, but any good pastor
(12:24):
is going to push you to arelationship with Christ.
Michael (12:30):
Yeah, yeah, that's good .
You know it's sad because youknow I've heard many times that
the number one command inscripture, or the command used
more times than any other I'venever done this study to see if
it is, but I assume that it isis fear not or do not fear,
right.
Scripture tells us to not fearand yet we tend to live in such
(12:51):
an environment of fear andthat's really something I did
see in both the pandemic worldwe lived in and in the
post-pandemic world.
Still there's a much higherdegree of fear.
I hear that in the kinds ofsermons and messages that are
being preached, because we workwith a lot of churches, a lot of
pastors, so I'm trying tolisten for what's out there.
I hear it even in the way thatworship is led and the things
(13:14):
that worship leaders might sayare those that are praying from
the front Like what I need.
Margie (13:19):
some examples here of this.
Michael (13:21):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, I must not go to a church
that does this, but Well,that's probably a good thing
that you don't right.
But it's easy when you get up infront of people.
It's easy to kind of play intothat fear by somehow making
what's out there seem morefearful than it really is.
And that's what I hear kind ofin prayers often is oh God, it's
(13:45):
so bad out there, right, it'sso scary.
We have so much to face and wedon't know if we're going to be
able to do it.
And we need you to rise up andconquer it all, rather than to
realize that if the kingdom ofGod is active and living around
us, that's a perfectly safeplace to be.
That was a quote that DallasWillard used to say when he'd
(14:08):
talk about the divine conspiracy.
He would just literally say andit's the one he got the most
pushback on.
Actually that he would say isthat living in the kingdom of
God is a perfectly safe place tobe.
Yet that doesn't work well ifyou want people to live in fear
and when you realize that if youcreate and increase their fear,
(14:28):
they might need you more, theymight need your church more,
they might give more money toyour church or they might
believe what you say or followyou.
So again, this is the way.
Maybe an authoritarian leadermight use fear as a real or
concocted enemy to help peoplefollow more strongly, and that's
(14:50):
not helpful because thatincreases the polarization right
.
And then I think one of thethings I see many pastors come
to me and in our coaching or inour relationships or training or
whatever they're saying, theydon't know what to do with all
the people in their church thatcome to them and are asking them
to preach on topics, or topreach on certain topics with a
(15:11):
different kind of authority thanthey typically do.
Why?
Because the people are fearfuland they want their pastor to
more boldly speak about certainthings that didn't happen to the
extent four, five, six yearsago that we see it happening
today.
And now many people not onlyask for it, but there's a little
(15:32):
bit of an agenda, even thatPastor, if you're not going to
do this.
A little bit of an agenda, eventhat pastor, if you're not going
to do this, I'm going to godown the street to the church
that is doing this, once againcreating polarization, because
if certain kind of people leaveand they go to a certain kind of
church that's down the streetwith a certain kind of leader
saying a certain kind of thing,now what that leaves behind is a
different kind of person that'swilling to stay at that church.
(15:55):
See so even the kinds ofchurches that we see have
different constituencies withless diversity in them because
of this polarization.
Margie (16:05):
Well, that's disturbing.
Michael (16:07):
It is.
On a number of levels.
Margie (16:10):
And I remember pastoring in my first church and one of
the congregants did come to meand just kind of made a casual
observation and said, pastor,you don't preach on any of the
social issues.
And I said well, you know, Iwill when we get to the place
where people understand what itmeans to be a disciple of Jesus.
(16:33):
I said because there's peoplewho have been in church more
than 20 years and if you askthem to describe what it means
to be a disciple of Jesus, youknow you hear like the crickets
chirping.
And I said, and I find thatvery, very disturbing.
So, you know, when you got tothe end of your sermon, sermon
(16:56):
and you're going to give the,here's what it looks like
because of all the rest of thestuff I already just said to you
, here's what it looks like tobe a disciple.
In response to that, you know,then that would be the picture
that I would paint.
And I thought, you know, if wewere to really understand what
it means to be disciples, Ithink a lot of conversations
(17:20):
would look differently.
I mean, I don't project to sayhow or anything.
One of my seminary professorsdid say that the church in North
America is in a crisis ofimmaturity.
Crisis of immaturity and Ithought, well, you're my new
(17:42):
best friend just for saying that.
Because I thought, how is it?
You've been to church that longand you don't understand some
of the real basics of theChristian faith?
Instead, it becomes more aboutsocial principles and I'm
actually starting to see and Idon't know if this is connected
to the election cycle or seasonthat we're about to start or are
(18:03):
in, or something that peopleare saying, well, I'm not going
to get into, that's a culturalissue and I'm not going to get
into that.
And I thought, oh my goodness,I've never, ever, heard those
words fall out of people'smouths.
It's rather shocking.
Michael (18:20):
Yeah.
Margie (18:21):
I don't know if that's going to stem the tide with some
of the divisiveness I mean it'srampant on social media and
here's where they go on socialmedia Unless you believe as a
Christian in the same way that Ithink about being a Christian,
then you're not a Christian.
And even Christ said you can'tsay to another person I think
(18:46):
it's Raca R-A-C-A, meaning theMargie Bryce translation of that
word is good for nothing.
You can't say somebody's notgood for anything, right, no use
for you.
Um, so it really calls us toreally examine some things it
does how do you know you, I amsitting under.
(19:07):
I'll know I'm sitting under anauthoritarian leader when you
have any kind of oh, yeah, yeah,yeah, that's a good way to ask
for it.
So then, pastors could say am Ithis?
I don't know.
Michael (19:21):
Yeah, no, I think it's worth our study.
I know this can be exhaustingfor pastors that are already
trying to shepherd their churchand teach and lead.
But to dive into a topic thatreally none of us have ever been
equipped to study, that feelsreally exhausting.
So I get that from the front.
I've been even tell to study.
That feels really exhausting.
So I get that from the front.
I've been even tell me that howhard it is.
But I have found to at leastget minimally educated.
(19:43):
You know that book by BobAltemeier that I mentioned.
You can Google his name and Ithink it's even free as an
online download.
Another book Brian McLarenwrote a book called the Second
Pandemic and authoritarianism inyour, your Future and that's a
real cheap or I don't know ifit's free or real cheap on his
website, but I found that just areal good summary.
(20:04):
That was helpful to me inunderstanding some things,
because he pointed out even somethings like that.
Authoritarian leaders arecharacterized by the first thing
we talked about already fear.
They know how to use fear fortheir own ends or create
divisions with an in-group andan out-group.
So if you see a leader doingthat and almost like creating
(20:25):
people pointing fingers thatthose people are in the
out-group, definitely ridiculingthem.
Well, we might not see that inthe church quite as much you do
to a certain extent, but wedefinitely see that in the
political realm Name-calling,finger-pointing, really unkind
comments being said.
So look for things like that.
Distorting or distracting fromthe truth is another
(20:48):
characteristic.
That's very common Intentionalmisinformation, if you sense a
leader is giving information butyour gut is saying really I'm
not sure if that's true, ormaybe you fact check it, because
we can all do that prettyquickly now by uh, you know,
just our phones right in our lap.
We might be listening tosomeone and we can fact check
that pretty quickly.
(21:08):
Or the suppression of dissentis another characteristic.
Um, if someone questions theirbehavior, that leader's behavior
an authoritarian leader doesn'twant to be questioned, so
they're going to try to put downthat dissent.
There's not an ability forpeople to have different
opinions in that environment.
(21:28):
But I think the church is aplace where people from all
kinds of opinions can come andshare.
Again, polarization makeseverything about either or it's
either this way or that way, andthis way is right, or you,
which is usually our way, andthat way is wrong, which is
their way, so you better chooseour way.
But it's not about either orit's about both end, and I think
(21:50):
looking at the gospel yourealize, kind of like you were
saying earlier, margie, thegospel is a more of a both end
gospel, where it's not aboutexclusivity or exclusion.
It literally is about Jesus,who was inclusive of everyone.
I mean, that's my favoritedefinition for the kingdom of
God, it's the availability forall people, that heaven's
(22:13):
available for everyone, and Ithink that's a beautiful way to
be able to look at it and tounderstand the gospel.
I think if you go look in Mark 115, you'll see Jesus describing
the gospel as the availabilityof the kingdom of God for
everyone.
Well, to me that's a veryinclusive thing.
So, just by its very nature,polarization excludes and
(22:34):
chooses a side and creates fearand distorts truth and creates
division and calls names and ohright, that's a problem of
discipleship.
You did say it well, we areincredibly immature.
Another way would be ourformation, our spiritual
formation, or what I like tocall our holistic formation, is
(22:55):
badly lacking and we really needto address it at that level.
Margie (23:00):
Sure, and as you were going down your list of many
things there, I was wonderingthis looks like a list of how to
know you're in a cult.
And then I wondered, as you'respeaking, I'm wondering is this
like narcissism too thrown in?
And definitely it's a big stewand you just stir it all up and
(23:23):
it just doesn't make anything.
Michael (23:26):
Yeah, I would say not every narcissistic leader is an
authoritarian leader, butprobably most authoritarian
leaders are narcissistic leaders, if I were to say it kind of in
one way that I see so andthere's some good books that
have been written on that.
Um, I help churches that haveeither had to recover from
leaders with degrees ofnarcissism or whatever the case.
(23:50):
So you can actually google that.
Chuck de gro's written a reallygood book on that.
Poles is an author also who haswritten a good book on that
subject, on narcissistic pastors.
So if you sense any of that, ifyou're well one, if you are a
leader, first we got to take thelog out of our own eyes.
(24:11):
I've had to do this many timesand look for my own narcissism
right, my own tendency to useother people for my own ends in
order to validate myself, andand, and sometimes we were
trained to do that.
I know I was trained to be anarcissistic leader, so it
really starts with us.
Margie (24:28):
You were trained you think you were trained to be in
a.
Michael (24:30):
I was trained Not.
Yeah, not consciously.
Yeah, I didn't take narcissismone-on-one.
I would just say in my earlyyears of leadership development
and in seminary, as well as justeven the church that I was a
part of, so many leaders werevery highly narcissistic and the
(24:52):
way they trained young leadersand the way they trained young
leaders, I think, drew out thosethings in them, including me.
And I didn't know that until Ileft that church and then was in
my first full-time ministryexperience and then crashed and
burned in eight months ofclinical depression, which I
think is a story I told when Iwas on your podcast before, so
people can go back and listen tothat podcast if they're
(25:14):
interested in hearing that story.
But that caused me to realizemy own narcissism.
So I think, like Jesus said,take the log out of your own eye
.
We have to start with ourselves.
Become more self-aware, bereflective to see.
Am I creating some of thepolarization?
Am I causing some of theseproblems?
So leaders need to do thatdefinitely and to watch others
in the church that haveinfluence that might do that.
(25:36):
That helps us be good shepherds, because I think we have more
people potentially in ourchurches creating polarization
as well.
But then the other levelobviously is just those sitting
in the pew, if you will, the laypeople of the church, those
that attend, for you, if you'reone of those folks, to be highly
aware of the leaders that yousubmit yourselves to and that
(25:58):
you realize that there are a lot, a lot of leaders in the
Christian church with highdegrees of narcissism, and it's
a sad reality, but thestatistics have shown it to be
true.
It's why we have a lot ofdivision in churches and a lot
of problems.
It's one of the things I'vecommitted my ministry to doing
is helping churches get healthyand recover from things like
(26:21):
that, and it's sad but it's true.
It's part of the humancondition and so knowing what to
do about it is extremelyimportant.
But I do think so.
I'm glad you brought it upbecause, yeah, the narcissistic
element in leadership definitelycontributes to polarization and
what happens there, and itdoesn't mean they might not grow
a great church, because I thinksome of the biggest churches in
(26:43):
existence have been grown thatway by highly narcissistic
leaders, and that's true ofcompanies as well.
Narcissistic leaders make greatleaders to grow things big, but
I don't think they're leadingin the way of Jesus and they
leave a wake behind them.
Margie (27:00):
And bigger isn't always better.
Michael (27:10):
No, no, I know that flies in the face of a lot in
North America right, right,right, especially Texas.
Margie (27:12):
No, you know I'm not.
You know I'm the state of Texashere.
But I think what was sad for me, having served in the ranks of
the United Methodist Church, isI had a congregation that was
mixed.
I had people that would come tome and we'd have conversation
(27:33):
and I could tell from theirconversation that they perceived
that I was well safe to talk toand they were more conservative
leaning.
And then I would have peoplecome to me who are more liberal
leaning and I they felt verycomfortable and safe to talk to
me and they could they assumethat I was more liberal, leading
(27:56):
too, you know.
And I thought, well, isn't thiskind of interesting here that
they don't seem to know for sure?
And that was by design on mypart, because I'm pastor over
everybody that was there and Iwas busy banging the
discipleship drum.
This is what it was to be adisciple was busy banging the
(28:17):
discipleship drum.
This is what it was to be adisciple.
The sad thing is was that I knewthere was coming a moment when
you would have to pick a side, aor B, and I was incredibly sad
for the congregations that weremixed, that they were going to
be the ones that would strugglethe most, and sad because they
(28:38):
had figured out how to do lifetogether and it was okay.
You know, and I thought I'm sureJesus is crying in a corner
somewhere.
You know, over things like that, over how we kind of stumble
over ourselves and undermine andand all that kind of thing.
I know for me ourselves andundermine and all that kind of
(28:59):
thing.
I know for me, now that I'm notin pastoral ministry, I'm
pretty picky about the kind ofleader that I want to let have
influence over me and I've beenblessed that I've been in places
where there is an aspect ofhumility that is not flashed
around like it's a badge ofhonor or something, but just
(29:23):
very subtly.
You can just pick up that there, that this is a person that has
gotten understanding ofhumility and and kind of
naturally exudes it.
Michael (29:33):
Right.
Margie (29:34):
But again, you know we don't see that in the political
realm Right anywhere and Iunderstand you do have to have a
bit of an ego to say that I'mgoing to stand up here and say
stuff to all y'all.
There is that piece of it, butat the same token, as leaders
(29:55):
who are following after God'spurposes.
There still has to be thatunderstanding that I'm up here
over all y'all, but I am underthe influence of the Lord, God
most high.
Michael (30:08):
Right, right.
Margie (30:10):
Oh, that's.
That's an ideal, maybe, I don'tknow.
Michael (30:15):
Yeah, yeah, no, it's so true, I mean, and we see it so
clearly in the political realmas you were talking.
It just made me think.
You know, in our country we'rereally poor at choosing
something that's in the middle.
We're better at going oh, Idon't like this way.
We've been governed for fouryears or eight years or whatever
.
So I'm going to swing to theother side, or let's bring in
(30:36):
that kind of leader, and then wego back and forth from pole to
pole.
Right, there's very little inthe middle, we don't have a
strong third party government,and so that's the way our
political system just works, andthat's why it's just so extreme
in the way that goes back andforth, rather than trying to
find a more moderate approach tomany of the issues.
(30:58):
That would be much healthier ifwe were able to find that happy
middle.
But in churches I think churchleaders can definitely make that
choice we can seek what'ssometimes being called now the
courageous middle, right?
Because if there are poles andwe've seen stream polarization
what does it look like to findthe courageous middle and live
(31:20):
in that space, rather than beingeither or, like I said earlier,
for it to be both and, andthat's challenging.
It definitely has itschallenges, but I think it is
such a good goal to be able tolook and see how to, rather than
choosing an extreme view onthis or that.
How can I actually talk aboutall sides in a way that shows
(31:45):
where the wisdom really lies andmaybe what God's wisdom is in
that, or allow people then tohave the freedom to choose what
their leaning might be and thento help people coexist together
with some different views?
I even find it funny thatchurches you know have such a
strong or long doctrinalstatement.
(32:06):
Right, here's our beliefstatement, doctrinal statement,
and they post that on thewebsite.
It's often one of their firstpages on their website and I
thought you know I'm not surehow healthy that is, because
what that says is then, unlessyou believe every you know jot
and tittle of this doctrinalstatement, you're not welcome
here.
Do you really want to say thatSome churches do?
(32:27):
I get it, but how differentcould it be if you just
simplified it down to somethinglike the teaching of Jesus and
the apostles?
Or you know that we believethat the kingdom of God is a
very broad and inclusive space,like I was talking about earlier
, when Jesus defines the gospelin Mark 1 and 15.
(32:47):
What if we were to say that andthen allow differences to
coexist without contention, sothat people don't call each
other names, raka, like human orwhatever right?
But we tried to cultivate aspirit of openness, humility,
listening, you know, a goodactive listening, question,
(33:08):
asking, sitting with attention,being able to have discussion,
learn from each other.
One phrase I've seen used morerecently now by some churches
that are trying to do this is athird way, that, rather than it
having to be that way or thatway, we're going to identify as
a third way space that realizeswe're going to have people on
that side and we're going tohave people on that side, and I
(33:30):
think that's a really good wayto look at it.
Margie (33:32):
So yeah, or we could just call it via media.
Michael (33:36):
Yeah, the via media right.
Margie (33:38):
They did that in England right when they couldn't say
Catholic or Protestant.
Let's have a middle way here.
Michael (33:43):
And.
Margie (33:44):
I think that's the history of the Church of England
maybe.
Yeah, yeah, I don't know wherethat's looking at you know, I'm
sure this is a hereticaldiscussion somewhere.
Michael (33:54):
I'm sure it is.
Margie (33:56):
Somebody's going to say well, this is heretical, but I
just, you know, after you spenda lot of time, you don't even
have to spend a lot, because Idon't spend a lot of time just
snippets here and there onsocial media.
I just think, oh, come onpeople, can't we do a little
better than this?
And I don't know whether theythink that people think that
(34:18):
they're talking to a homogeneousgroup or because nobody's mind
has changed on social media,really.
Yeah know, I don't I don't knowanybody that says this mean
change my life even thoughthat's a big thing to say in the
culture.
Michael (34:33):
This is changing life, you know right seriously.
Margie (34:36):
Your dish soap change your life I know we're going to
be a telling culture, right?
Michael (34:40):
we have opinions and we want to tell others our
opinions.
And pastors often ask me, orthe leaders I coach, like, how
do I approach this?
And probably the thing I saymore than any other is learn to
ask good questions, and that'swhat we, as coaches, learn,
right, you learn to ask goodquestions.
So I think all leaders, allpastors, need to learn to become
question askers.
(35:00):
So if you want a place to start, rather than feel like you have
to create your own opinion oneverything or study every issue
or come across authoritativelyon whatever the case would be,
learn to ask questions.
We have a good example of thatin Jesus, right?
Jesus, when asked questions,would often respond with another
(35:20):
question, or he was just themaster question asker, and yet
we don't pay much attention tothat.
Maybe we all need to get intoour Bibles and do a study on the
way Jesus asked questions, whyhe asked them that way and the
results that came out as aresult.
So if we were to startsomewhere, I think, to ease
polarization, learn to ask goodquestions that help people sit
(35:44):
in the tension and not feel likethey have to exert their
opinion in a way that edgesother people out so that they're
only around people that agreewith them.
That's just not what communityis.
Right henry now, and used tosay that community is the place
where the person that you leastwant to live with always lives.
(36:04):
That means there's disagreement, there's tension, it's messy
right and, pastors, we need tocultivate that with each other.
Margie (36:12):
Yeah, I know, and in my last church I served in the new,
and that was before I wastrained as a coach, but I was
before.
I was a newspaper reporter andsome of the marketing and PR
work required me to askquestions of people I was
interviewing.
So I had to ask the right kindof questions to get them talking
(36:35):
, to get information, tounderstand better.
So that was part of what I waspackaged with already.
So they knew that if they cameto me with something, I it was
going to be a really why do youthink that?
Tell me more about this or that.
I mean, I was always and, andlook what I'm doing now and now
it is.
You know, I coaching is a greatoutlet for that and it and it's
(36:58):
a helpful and useful tool.
It's good to be curious aboutother people and why they think
the way they do, because there'susually something that's
usually kind of an interestingstory besides yes right people
are kind of interesting.
Well, I'm going to leave us hereand just you know, I think this
is the kind of podcast that youjust listen to maybe a few
(37:21):
times share with a friend, andjust kind of listen to maybe a
few times share with a friendand just kind of mull over where
you think Jesus might fit.
And I'm not saying Jesus fits,and everything comes out of my
mouth and no way would I saythat.
There are some days I tell you,don't even follow me to the
grocery store you so you know, Imean take a moment and just
(37:42):
kind of chew on the ideas andthink about it and see what God
says.
Thanks so much for thisconversation, michael, and I'm
sure we'll have you back onagain.
Michael (37:56):
You're welcome.
Thanks, Margie.
Margie (38:02):
So how do the pieces of your life fit together?
Do they fit together well andthings are humming along just
fine, or are there some piecesthat are tight or absent or just
not fitting the bill?
This is your invitation to joinme in my glass workshop for a
(38:24):
video series, where I am goingto do a stained glass project
while I talk to you aboutsustainability and building
sustainability into your heartand into your life.
So I am going to be doing myart, which is a form of
self-care, and I'm going toinvite you into that space with
(38:46):
me and I'm going to chat.
I'm going to chat aboutself-care and I'm going to show
you how I create, and there's anifty, nifty analogy Stained
glass seems to be a very goodmetaphor for what I want to talk
about.
So I'd love for you to join me.
To do that, to opt in, I'llneed you to email me at
(39:09):
crabbypastor at gmailcom.
That's crabbypastor at gmailcom.
So you won't want to miss this.
So you won't want to miss this.
You definitely won't want tomiss this.
(39:30):
So make a plan to join me inthe glass workshop.
Are you wondering whether yourfatigue, your lack of motivation
, your lack of interest isburnout?
(39:50):
Maybe?
I just wanted to let you knowthat I have a resource on the
website, margiebryce dot comthat's B-R-Y-C-E MargieBryce dot
com and it is a burnoutquestionnaire free for you to
download, and kind ofself-assess and get a sense of
where you're at.
There are questions that notonly ask about what you're going
through but maybe how oftenyou're experiencing it and
(40:12):
that's kind of a key to whereyou might be, because you have
to know where you are in orderto chart a course forward.
And most pastors who experiencepastors and ministry leaders
who experience burnout rarelyknow that that's where they're
(40:34):
at until they're well into it.
And if you're unsure about thatlittle statistic, so far,
everybody that I've interviewedon this podcast who has
experienced burnout, when I askthat kind of question, they're
like, yeah, I didn't know that'swhere I was at.
So again, go to MargieBryce dotcom it's on the homepage of the
(40:56):
website and you can get yourburnout questionnaire and kind
of see where you're at.
Hey friends, the Crabby Pastorpodcast is sponsored by Bryce
Art Glass and you can find thaton Facebook.
I make stained glass as part ofmy self-care and also by Bryce
(41:21):
Coaching, where I coach ministryleaders and business leaders,
and so the funds that I generatefrom coaching and from making
stained glass is what issupporting this podcast and I
will have opportunities for youto be a part of sponsoring me
(41:43):
and, as always, you can do thebuy me a cup of coffee thing in
the show notes.
But I will have some other waysthat you can be a part of
getting the word out about theimportance of healthy self-care
(42:35):
for ministry leaders.
So I'm here to help.
I stepped back from past honorand, in all things, make sure
you connect to thesesustainability practices you
know, so that you don't becomethe Crabby Pastor.
Thank you.
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