November 6, 2024 • 53 mins
Unlock the secrets to navigating the intricate world of intrapersonal conflict with insights to promote pastor health from Rev. Geniese Stanford, a former business professional turned pastor, who joins me on the Crabby Pastor podcast.
We'll explore how recognizing the gap between current experiences and desired outcomes can turn conflict into a powerful source of energy for growth and change, even in the simplest scenarios—like deciding between a beloved cup of coffee and timely meeting attendance.
Discover how her journey through traditional conflict resolution in church settings led her to the transformative "Leading Out of Drama" framework and Dr. Nate Regier's "Conflict Without Casualties."
Tools and connections to prevent pastor burnout and dealing effectively with internal conflict, and other conflict:
Compassionate Accountability book
Conflict without Casualties audiobook
Self-Compassion Test
Email: revstanford@gmail.com to connect with Rev. Geniese Stanford.
Rev. Geniese Stanford is certified by Next Element Consulting, LLC ("NE") to provide training, coaching and consulting services relating to its Leading Out of Drama® methodology, the intellectual property rights to which are held by NE.
This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.
Contact info:
Email me at crabbypastor@gmail.com with your input and ideas for burnout and leadership topics of interest or if you know someone who might be interesting to interview.
Visit my website:
YOUR LEADERSHIP COACH FOCUSED ON BURNOUT PREVENTION
Get your FREE Burnout Symptoms test to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE.
CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT SYMPTOMS TEST.
I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.
And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.
Blessings on your journey!
Margie
🦀 🦀 🦀
Find regular support on my Facebook group: Building Sustainability in Ministry Leaders: Beating Burnout.
Connect with me about
LEADERSHIP COACHING and Workshops...
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Margie (00:01):
Hey there, it's Margie Bryce, your host of the Krabby
Pastor podcast, where we talkabout all things sustainability,
whether it's sustainability inministry, in your personal life
and we acknowledge that thechurch is in a transitional time
.
So we hit topics there too thatare going to stretch your mind
(00:23):
and the way you lead, especiallyhow you lead yourself, so that
you don't become the KrabbyPastor.
Well, hey there, this is MargieBryce with CraPastor Pastor
podcast.
Notice, I say Margie Bryce withthe Krabby Pastor.
That is distinct and differentfrom Margie Bryce with the
(00:44):
Krabby Pastor.
That is distinct and differentfrom Margie Bryce is the Krabby
Pastor.
Just making that point clear,for I don't know why, but I just
felt like it today.
So I am here, we're going tohave a very conflicted episode.
I just want to tell you upfront, because we're going to talk
about conflict, and actuallywhat we're going to talk about
(01:06):
is a specific kind of conflictwhich is intrapersonal, that's
I-N-T-R-A personal.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (01:30):
So I have here with me let Janice tell us
a bit about who she is and whatshe does and a bit about her
interest in conflict.
Okay, my background is I was inbusiness for 19 years Last
stint was with IBM, answered thecall into ministry and pastored
United Methodist churches for20 years and I recently moved to
the Northeast and while I was apastor I became interested in
conflict and how to do it better.
Margie (01:52):
That's interesting, that that evolved.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (01:54):
Then I'm just saying yes, because yes,
and I never felt like I coulddeal with the conflict in a
healthy way.
And so I sought out trainingand ways to educate myself and
try to learn new skills and Ifinally found what I thought
(02:14):
really fit me and it's calledLeading Out of Drama.
And I started by reading a bookCompassionate it's conflict
without casualties, and it'sbased on this idea of
compassionate accountability andI'm going to talk more about
that in a few minutes.
And so I really sought out.
The conflict in the churchbothered me because we never
(02:34):
seemed to settle it andcertainly didn't settle it in
healthy ways and it really holdschurches back from
accomplishing their mission.
And so, while I was serving asa pastor, that's really what
drove me to be interested in it.
And then I found what I felt wasa really good plan, and I had
(02:57):
been trained at the LombardPeace Center in mediation and
that kind of conflict resolutionin mediation and that kind of
conflict resolution.
And what I found and what Ireally wanted was something to
transform conflict intoproductive, into something that
produced a good result, wasn'tjust something, because in
mediation and in negotiation andcommon problem solving or
(03:19):
problem resolution, each partyusually has to give up something
because you come to an, youknow you come to an agreement
about what you're going to giveup and that's the end result.
And I didn't like the idea ofhaving to give up something
because I think when there's aconflict it probably arises out
of real especially in the churchreal concern about something,
(03:43):
and so I felt it was importantto hear that concern.
But I didn't have the skillsand I didn't know how to do it.
So I had done some training onprocess communication with Next
Element, which is a firmheadquartered in Kansas.
That's where I was servingchurches and it was all about
understanding how peoplecommunicate and what that tells
you about the best way tocommunicate with them.
(04:04):
And at the same time, nateRegeer, who's the CEO, was
writing this book, conflictWithout Casualties, and I became
very interested and I actuallyended up being on the launch
team for that book and thatreally started me down this path
of understanding conflict in anew way, writing me down this
(04:28):
path of understanding conflictin a new way.
And so the way I defineconflict, or the way that we
define conflict, is the gapbetween what I'm experiencing
and what I want to experience.
Margie (04:38):
Oh, okay, say that again .
Rev. Geniese Stanford (04:42):
Okay, conflict is the gap between what
I'm experiencing, currentlyexperiencing, and what I want to
experience.
And here's a really easyexample.
Okay, so let's say that I'm onthe way to work, if I work for a
church.
I'm on my way to the church andI have a meeting and I realize,
as I'm leaving the house, I didnot have that last cup of
(05:04):
coffee that I really wanted.
So I think, oh good, there'sStarbucks on my way to the
church, I'll just drive throughand I can still get to the
church on time.
And I drive up to Starbucks andI see 10 cars in the drive
through.
All right, what am Iexperiencing?
I really want coffee.
Margie (05:24):
If you're coffee deprived, you're pretty cheesed
at the long line.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (05:28):
Oh yeah, I'm really irritated and so I
see I want coffee.
I see this 10 car line, I'mlike, okay, the dilemma, so the
conflict is do I get the coffeethat I want or do I show up to
the meeting on time?
I can't have both Right.
That's internal conflict.
(05:49):
It's the gap between what Iwant or what I'm currently
experiencing, which is I wantcoffee, and what I want to
experience.
I want coffee, but there's agap.
I can't get it in time to makemy meeting, so I have to make
that trade off.
So that's internal conflict.
It's only conflict thatinvolves me.
Margie (06:09):
Okay, so that's the same internal conflict.
Would that be another way tosay intrapersonal?
Rev. Geniese Stanford (06:16):
Internal conflict is intrapersonal
meaning inside myself.
Margie (06:20):
So it's me, myself and I , that merry threesome, there
having conflict, that's right.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (06:27):
With every conflict there's a
decision point, right, am Igoing to?
How am I going to address thatgap?
Because I'm going to address itone way or the other and that's
something that I have to decidein the moment.
In this example and thisapplies to all kinds of
conflicts I mean that's a simpleeveryday conflict that we all
(06:50):
have and we pretty much know howto handle those, and it might
it might affect my day for alittle while, but eventually I'm
okay and you know, I figure outa way to solve it.
Maybe I make coffee at thechurch, or maybe I, after that
first meeting, I go get myStarbucks.
I mean, there's lots ofdifferent ways to solve it.
Maybe I make coffee at thechurch, or maybe I, after that
first meeting, I go get myStarbucks.
I mean, there's lots ofdifferent ways to solve it.
Margie (07:09):
Or maybe you go to get in line, get the coffee and be
late.
Forgiveness, that's trueBecause they would want you
there with coffee rather thanwithout.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (07:20):
That's very true, because interpersonal
conflict can turn tointerpersonal conflict?
Margie (07:27):
Yes, and that, I think, is the issue.
I was really fascinated.
We talked I actually met Janicethrough the ministerial
coaching initiative that is outof Point Loma, nazarene.
It's not just Nazarene, it's amore broad base any pastors and
maybe I'll stick the link in theshow notes but we met and
(07:50):
connected on there and you knowwe can have wonderful chats
right, but along the way, youknow we were talking about how
this internal conflict can showup then in the church
environment for the ministryleader and how that can impact.
Can you say more on that?
Rev. Geniese Stanford (08:12):
Yeah.
So let's take it to to a howintrapersonal conflict shows up
in conflict with others, and wedon't have to be church specific
, but we can be Really.
The whole focus ofintrapersonal is what's going on
inside me.
So with church conflict, I as apastor always felt
(08:34):
uncomfortable and a sense ofthis is a church.
What I've learned is thatconflict is natural and normal
and you cannot make progresswithout conflict.
Because if I'm just satisfiedwith how things all are, which
(08:56):
is unrealistic, but if that'swhat I'm telling myself, then I
am not motivated to do anythingabout it.
To do anything about it.
So the gap is actually can belooked at as motivation.
Conflict actually can bepositive if I know how to
navigate it and how to use theenergy.
(09:16):
So conflict is basically energy.
That gap is filled with energy.
So what I'm experiencing andwhat I want to experience that
gap, that's energy.
And in the case of the coffee,I use that energy first to
decide what I'm gonna do aboutit and then to deal with how I
decided to deal with it.
So I might use that energy in apositive way.
(09:39):
I might just say you know, Ican do without the coffee, I'm
gonna be on time for my meetingand I'm not going to let not
having coffee affect me, andthat's a choice I make.
So there's energy in that gapand I can choose how to use that
energy and if I use itpositively, I transform it into
positive, then that's howpositive change can occur.
If I allow that energy to beused negatively, that's called
(10:03):
drama.
Oh, and drama is not only anenergy vampire, it's a vampire
to getting anything done.
And drama shows up internallyas well as externally, because
however we are feelinginternally can affect how we
react and how we interact withother people.
So it's important to notice, tokind of do a scan of myself on
(10:29):
a regular basis to see where amI experiencing conflict within
myself?
That's really whatintra-personal conflict is about
is where does the conflictexist within me, what am I
experiencing and how do I wantto experience something
differently?
And, for example, we all knowthat health, both mental and
(10:50):
physical health, reallycontributes to the status of a
pastor's.
Health really contributes tohow effective they can be as a
pastor.
Yeah To that.
Margie (11:02):
That's kind of my shtick right.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (11:10):
That's right, and so if I am in poor
health because of the choices Imake, then I have to decide if
I'm going to do anything aboutthat.
I mean, I can just stay in mybubble of poor health and not do
anything about it, and and Iwill.
For me, for example, if I'm inpoor health or I'm not taking
(11:30):
care of myself, there's acertain angst that builds up,
and that's the intrapersonalconflict, and that angst steals
energy from everything else,because I'm using it, I'm using
the energy that I have, and it'sit's negative energy and it
pulls me down because I'm eitherself critical oh, you're just.
(11:51):
You know you need to goexercise, I don't feel like
exercising.
It's that internal conversationI have.
You know, if you want to gethealthy, you need to go exercise
.
Yeah, I know that, but this isself talk.
But I really don't feel likeexercising.
Yeah, I know that, but this isself-talk, but I and helps you
(12:24):
identify the gaps.
So if you catch yourself sayingthat's just terrible.
You know about something, adecision you're making or
something you don't do, and youstart thinking about how
terrible you feel about that,you've just uncovered an
internal conflict that youprobably need to address.
You've just uncovered aninternal conflict that you
(12:47):
probably need to address.
I need to, whatever theconflict is, whatever I'm
currently experiencing, that isnot what.
Margie (12:59):
I want to experience.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (12:59):
I, for one, have a vision of what I
want to be, experiencing, how Iwant to be, and when I'm not,
that I'm not at my best, and sothere's a gap.
What I'm currently experiencingis I am not exercising enough.
Right, I'm not exercisingenough and I can.
There's what we call internalmyths about ourselves and about
(13:19):
others, and my myth is I'm not agood person because I'm not
exercising and I'm overweightand so therefore, and it, it, it
can lock me down, it can zapall my energy.
So a really important part inuncovering intra, this internal
conflict, is to use a simpletool called I want, because I
(13:44):
want, I want, and so it'sbecause, okay, because.
And so it goes like this, andit's really a personal
affirmation.
Self-affirmation is soimportant Anytime we're talking
about interpersonal conflict orjust growing in our personhood.
So the positive affirmation isI want.
So I'm going to define the gap.
(14:05):
So here's what I'm experiencingI want to experience this.
So for me, I have grandkidsright now, I want to be able to
play longer in the backyard withmy grandson.
There's a gap I'm not able todo that right now.
I can play a short time, but Idon't have the stamina to play a
(14:27):
long time.
So I want and why do I want tospend more time with my grandson
in the backyard.
That's where the because.
So I want X, y, z, because,well, I want to have more
stamina and play longer with mygrandson in the backyard.
Because it's great bonding timewith him.
It's a lot of fun.
(14:47):
I love being with him and withthe family.
I love being outside, and Idon't feel good when I have to
cut it short because I don'thave the stamina.
So, because, because, because,because I don't have the stamina
, because I'm not in good shape,I don't.
(15:10):
The outcome is I don't get whatI really want, which is a
longer time to play with mygrandson in the backyard.
Margie (15:16):
It can be as simple as that.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (15:18):
But the important thing is to say I want
, because of all the things itdoes.
It makes me closer to mygrandson.
It's a lot of fun.
I'm building up, you know,positive feelings with him.
I'm showing up in his life, allthose different things.
It's giving me great joy.
And so there's a gap, though,because I want to be able to
(15:42):
play as long as he wants to, butI'm not physically able, and so
I have to decide am I going todo something about that gap?
Is the gap strong enough?
Is my desire to be differentstrong enough?
And that's where negative mythscan come in.
I can have negative self-talkthat says you've been here
(16:03):
before, you always said youwanted to be in better shape,
but you just don't do it.
And so then my answer back is Iwant to increase my stamina so
I can get this result of beingwith my grandson more.
(16:23):
Because of all the reasons, Ireturn to that, and then I say
okay, then I hold myselfaccountable.
What am I willing to commit to?
So there's this.
It's defining the conflict,defining the gap, defining what
I want instead of the gap.
So I define what I'm currentlyexperiencing.
I define what I want toexperience, I of the gap.
So I define what I'm currentlyexperiencing, I define what I
(16:46):
want to experience.
I see the gap, then I decidewhat I'm going to do about the
gap.
Margie (16:51):
Right, this speaks a lot a lot, a lot to and I've talked
to Dr Chris Adams about thisbefore.
There's a podcast about thatvery thing the resistance to
doing self-care and taking itreally serious.
Because if you talk to us about, if you have all this internal
(17:15):
conflict going on whether it'sdue to self-care or some other
issues how that impacts, how youshow up to other people.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (17:28):
Well, and if I have these unresolved
conflicts number one, if Ihaven't named them, if I haven't
really spent the time to lookdeeply in myself and know what
my internal conflicts are, thenit shows up in ways that I can't
even detect.
Right it just, it colors mythinking, because it can result
in low self, self what am Itrying to say?
(17:51):
Self-affirmation.
It can result in I'm more edgy,it can result in lack of
satisfaction, and so I bring allof that into relationship.
Margie (18:02):
You can be.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (18:02):
you can be crabby bring all of that into
relationship.
You can be crabby, crabby.
That pretty much defines it.
I mean, if I'm really, if Ihave a real sizable conflict
going on interpersonal conflictI'm really unhappy with where I
am.
That that unhappiness is goingto carry over and it's going to
show up in conflict with otherpeople.
(18:23):
Sure, sure, because I'm not mybest self.
Margie (18:25):
Sure, and this kind of very thing is something that
we're having a coach, which weboth are but having a coach can
be very helpful, help you tounravel some of the internal
conflict that you have going onand then ask that question what
(18:45):
am I willing to do about this?
I mean, what do we say aboutourselves if we aren't willing?
Because this happens?
You know, I mean the ApostlePaul.
I keep thinking about thisbecause I have to do a
presentation in October at theSociety of Professors of
Christian Ministry, and I'mthinking about the Apostle Paul
(19:06):
in this section where he saysyou know, what I want to do, I
don't do, and what I that's thisis a bad paraphrase here that
I'm doing, but you kind of.
I've read that and I love thatbecause I thought, oh, how many
of us are there?
All of us, I think.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (19:22):
That is self-talk of internal conflict
all of us.
I think that is self-talk ofinternal conflict.
Yes, what I want to do, I do,and what I don't want to do, I
do.
Yeah, what's up with that?
I know?
Well, you've got an internalconflict and it's time to sit
down and say I want X Y Zbecause X Y Z and look at that
and decide, okay, this is whatI'm going to do about it.
(19:42):
But more than that, what thisinternal, unresolved conflict
will do is it affects myself-confidence.
It affects how I show up aroundother people, because if I feel
like I'm not even taking careof myself, how can I possibly
take care of someone else?
And I think that's the missingthing for a lot of pastors is we
(20:05):
put all of our energy intocaring for other people and we
forget that we really have to.
We need a healthy core to beable to minister, and so we got
to work on ourselves.
Yeah, that can't stop us fromcontinuing to serve as a pastor,
but we need to.
(20:25):
We need to up our, ourself-talk with self-affirmation
and we need to give ourselvesself-compassion.
I'm just recently connected withthis idea of self-compassion.
And how do I, when, when I makea commitment to myself to do
something and then I don'tfollow through.
I need to have self-compassionabout that, not criticize myself
(20:49):
too much, not decide, not haveself-talk of I'm just a failure,
I can't get anything done, blah, blah, blah.
That's not going to help.
I need to have self-compassion,so I need to say okay, what's
in my way, again, identifyingthat gap.
There's a gap in what I'mexperiencing, what I want to
(21:09):
experience what's?
in my way Right now.
What's in my?
Margie (21:12):
way are the cider donuts on the counter that my husband
had he got.
We went to a cider mill and hegot sick.
He goes.
Look, it's only six on here.
I can have one a day for thenext six days.
Well, you know, I don't know, Alot of people aren't excited
about those plain cider donuts,but you know, I had one this
(21:33):
morning and I thought what Ineed to do is crumble these up,
Put them in the garbage.
I need to do, or maybe put himin a lockbox that only he has
the code for something, Cause I,you know, I refuse to do the.
Oh, I'm a terrible personbecause I ate this donut once a
(21:55):
year.
You know what I mean.
You gotta be real.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (21:58):
Yeah, well, and and that's the, that's
the self-talk, that's thenegative or positive self-talk.
And you know you just had.
You just described an internalconflict, perfectly Right.
I see, the cider donut, Ireally want it, but I know it's
not good for me, but what am Igoing to do about it?
Or the second or third ciderdonut that you want, because the
(22:21):
first one was so good.
Margie (22:21):
I know it can go.
It can go like that, and thenthere you are, you're, you're
off to the right and then wehave.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (22:29):
Then we have the negative self-talk
about why did I do that, theregret right.
So internal conflict can showup in a lot of ways.
It can show up as regret, andif I'm feeling regret about
something, then I probably had agap between what I experienced
and what I wanted to experience.
And so part of this journey ofidentifying internal conflict is
(22:54):
to really do someself-examination about what do I
want for my life in this timeand in this place, for my life
in this time and in this placeand a coach can be very helpful
in that, a therapist can be veryhelpful in that.
Or we can do it on our own, andthat's I love journaling for
(23:16):
that reason, because I can doall the self-talk I need to in a
journal, I can write downwhatever train of thought is and
I can go back and I can seewhere the gaps are existing and
where I'm experiencing conflictand didn't realize it.
Because part of the big leap isto identify the gaps, because I
(23:38):
have to decide what I want, whatdo I really want, and then I
can identify how far I am fromwhat I really want and then
pursue it.
And then pursue it and takesmall steps and how this affects
conflict with others is ifwe're in a place where we don't
(24:00):
feel satisfied with ourself,we're unhappy with ourself.
We're already experiencing abunch of satisfied with
ourselves.
We're unhappy with ourselves.
We're already experiencing abunch of gaps within ourselves.
My self-talk can turn negative.
I can start to have all kindsof doubts about my ability or my
other reaction can be as I lockin.
I take a very firm position andI'm not willing to move off of
(24:27):
it because I need somethingthat's solid and stable.
So give me an example of that.
Okay.
So let's say that somebodycomes up to you at church and
and says we really need tochange the time of worship.
It's just not working for ouryoung families.
We need to change the time ofworship.
It's just not working for ouryoung families, we need to
change the time of worship.
And I've told you about this 10times.
(24:49):
Okay, in that moment, where am Ion my scale?
You know, I'm experiencingsomething, probably not what I
wanted to experience.
Do I have the capacity torespond in a way and I teach
this, I do training for this torespond in a healthy way, even
when I'm low on my own capacity.
(25:09):
And so, in the moment, how do Ianswer that without creating
greater conflict?
I mean, I can just say, look,we're not going to change
worship time and I walk away.
Well, that doesn't help.
That person is going to go offfeeling unheard and probably
(25:33):
angrier because I didn't taketheir concern seriously, and so
I teach their skills.
So let me step back for aminute and talk about roles we
play in conflict, and this isinternal as well as external.
So roles we play in conflictOne is victim.
Margie (25:54):
We all like that one today.
I think the culture reinforcesthat.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (26:00):
Yeah, I think it does too, and I'm
looking for validation fromother sources instead of
self-validation andself-compassion.
And so a victim might give in.
A victim might avoid conflictbecause they don't want to go
there.
Another role we play in andthese are roles, this isn't who
(26:24):
we are, these are roles we play.
Another role we play is rescuer.
I'm going to jump in and fix it.
So somebody comes to me with acomplaint, I'm going to tell
them how to fix it right away.
I'm going to jump in and givehelp where it's not offered, and
I do that partly because itmakes me feel good, and I have
this myth that I believe I canmake others feel good, which is
(26:44):
a myth I can't Right.
Margie (26:47):
I can't make other, and pastors are great fixers.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (26:52):
Yes, and that's.
We're probably playing a rescuerrole a lot of that time.
And the third role is so thepersecutor is one who is self,
(27:20):
what's the right word is theauthority, and, like a
persecutor might say, do this orelse, so we can have internal
persecutor right, that when Ieat that second donut, that was
stupid, that's an internalpersecutor right.
Or if somebody, like theexample I used, somebody comes
up and says we really need tochange the time of worship, you
don't have a clue, do you?
We would probably never say itthat directly, but that may be
(27:44):
what we're thinking and it'sgoing to come out in our
communication, and so I can fallinto the persecutor role often,
because I feel trapped and I,you know, maybe he's the fifth
person and maybe we've talkedabout changing worship times and
we've been at an impasse.
You know, he doesn't know whatwe've been talking about in
meetings and maybe I'm sofrustrated that I just say I'm
(28:06):
not even going to consider it,and that's OK if that's really
true, but said in a way that ifI say it like that, it's going
to immediately turn that personaway.
Margie (28:19):
Yeah, it certainly isn't what Jesus would say, is it?
I don't think so.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (28:23):
No, so those are roles we play, and we
play all of the roles, but wehave a dominant role.
It isn't what Jesus would say,is it?
I don't think so.
No, right.
So those are roles we play, andwe play all of the roles, but
we have a dominant role.
And I have a tool called theDrama Resilience Assessment that
defines those roles, that helpsyou identify what's your most
frequent role and what is yourleast frequent role.
Margie (28:38):
But we all play those roles in different circumstances
, I'll have to get that linkfrom you to put in the show
notes.
I know you already have it.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (28:46):
The drama resilience assessment is only
through a class that I teach, oh, okay.
Okay, yeah, and it also.
Then there's compassion skillsthat match up to the drama roles
, and so the compassion skillsare for victim openness about
what I'm feeling, what I want,or it could be affirming what
(29:06):
the other person is feeling orwanting, if this is
interpersonal.
So, for example, the compassionskill is I might say to the guy
gosh, I hear you, this soundsreally important to you, okay.
So I've just addressed that.
I hear him and that I see thatit's important to him, or it
wouldn't have brought it up tome.
And then I move around.
(29:29):
It's called the compassioncycle.
So I move to the next step,which is resourcefulness.
So I might say to him and itdepends on, you know, part of
this depends on me knowingexactly what I want and what I
believe and what I hold firm to.
So I might say to him you knowwe've been having conversations
about that, we're going to havea meeting in a couple of weeks.
(29:53):
If this happens to be going on,and I'd love to have your input
before then, would you give mesome ideas about your ideas
about changing the worship time?
And then we move to the nextstep in the same sentence, and
we say and it's called thepersistence role or compassion
(30:13):
skill and I say, because that'smy word that takes the
resourcefulness and connects itto the persistence, and
persistence is about settingboundaries or making commitments
, and so I'd really like to haveyour ideas, because worship is
really important to me and tothis church and I'm committed to
(30:38):
it being the very best worshipthat it possibly can be.
And so then we return to thatperson and we let them respond,
and so it's called thecompassion cycle, and what it
does is I will be able torecognize, after the training, I
will be able to recognize ifsomebody's coming to me in a
victim role or in a rescuer role, or in a persecutor role.
(31:02):
I'll be able to tell Persecutorwould sound like this this
worship time stinks and I'm notcoming back.
That's a persecutor role, right, and that just tells me that's
really, really, really importantto this person and something's
going on.
They feel really strongly aboutthis, and that's what I would
say is wow, it sounds like youfeel really strongly about this.
Margie (31:24):
I really want to hear more about this, and that's what
I would say is wow it soundslike you feel really strongly
about this.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (31:26):
I really want to hear more about this,
because if it's if it's a churchmember, I'm not going to let
that just sit there.
Right?
I really want to hear moreabout that.
Now.
It has to be sincere, right?
Let's get together and set atime or whatever.
And that's how I close thatcompassion cycle.
So I'm using my compassionskills to respond to the
(31:51):
conflict and the particular rolethey're in in the conflict.
That's true internally too.
Bringing it back tointrapersonal.
So in that moment I am probablyexperiencing intrapersonal
conflict too, and this is wherebeing aware of self-talk is
really important.
So what's going on behind thescenes inside me?
(32:13):
In that moment of conflict?
Maybe I'm saying to myself Iknew this was going to come up.
I knew that you know whyhaven't I taken care of this
before?
Or, or I might feel trapped,like I have no idea what to say.
This guy I don't know, you knowwho knows where I am?
Oh no, not him again.
Oh no, not him again yeah.
(32:36):
Which which, if I pay attentionto that, I might miss an
opportunity to invite him to adifferent place, to a different
way of seeing things.
So every conflict is anopportunity to close that gap.
Margie (32:53):
Well, isn't then also the oh no, not him again.
I mean, that's kind of a victimresponse, absolutely On my, you
know, on my end, like so if yousay that and then you go oh no,
now I'm behaving as if I'm thevictim.
How can I step into somethingbetter?
Rev. Geniese Stanford (33:12):
Yeah, and in the moment that's where the
compassion skills and thetraining really helps, Because
in the moment I don't have timenecessarily to think through all
of that.
Margie (33:20):
Right.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (33:21):
But if I know how to do it and I've
practiced it and I've dealt withmyself, so the same thing
happens with myself.
So I can, I can use thecompassion cycle with myself.
So back to the the.
I want to play longer with mygrandson, but I don't have the
stamina and I'm not doinganything about it.
So that's where I I say how Ifeel about it.
(33:45):
I feel unsuccessful or I feelterrible, or I I feel like I'm
missing something.
And then I go toresourcefulness.
So it openness is a lot aboutidentifying feelings.
Feelings and wants.
Ooh, that yeah, and for somepeople that's hard.
(34:05):
Let me give you a hint aboutthat.
There is out on the internet,there's a feeling wheel and it
has every kind of feeling, and Igrew up in a family that did
not express feeling so I've hadto turn to learning how to
express feelings by using afeeling wheel.
It's really, really important tolabel and to identify what
(34:28):
we're feeling and be veryspecific.
So I acknowledge what I'mfeeling and then I think through
resourcefulness Okay, how can Irespond to this guy?
That's not going to alienatehim further.
He's obviously experiencing agap himself.
I'm experiencing a gap becauseI'm uncomfortable, and so how
(34:52):
can I?
You know, I'm thinking tomyself, how can I respond?
In a resourceful way?
Or for myself, I'm thinking,okay, what are my options?
If I want to exercise, if Iwant to have more stamina, what
are my options?
That's resourceful, OK, so Icould walk every day, I could
start eating better.
You know all my possibilities.
(35:13):
That's the resourcefulness step.
And then I make a commitment.
That's the persistence step, soI can use the compassion cycle
myself and it might be somethingthat I work through through
journaling over a period of time, depending on how big the
conflict is, how much I reallyam motivated to address it.
(35:33):
And so there are.
There's understanding the dramarole you're in and identifying
the drama that you'reexperiencing.
So that gap between what I wantand what I'm currently
experiencing, and if I let ittake a negative bent, that's
(35:54):
going to be drama.
It's going to zap all my energyand I'm not going to have the
energy to address it.
So instead I make the decision,the choice to go to have
self-compassion and the steps inself-compassion if I really
want to do something about it.
I mean I can just haveself-compassion and say I'm not
ready to do something about thisyet and that's OK.
(36:16):
And for the moment I've solvedthat conflict until the next
time I go play and I have tostop and sit down.
Margie (36:22):
Right, because I don't have the stamina.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (36:24):
So then the conflict's back, and maybe
this time I go play and I haveto stop and sit down right
Because I don't have the stamina.
So then the conflict's back,and maybe this time I'm ready to
address it, I'm ready to takesteps, and so I apply the
compassion cycle to myself, andI'm doing this preferably by
journaling.
But some people only want to doit thoughtfully.
And part of theself-affirmation is and at the
(36:46):
persistent stage is to say Iwill or I will not Right, and to
write that down as anaffirmation.
Margie (36:56):
I will start walking every day, I will stop eating
the donuts on the counter.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (37:03):
I will stop eating the three donuts
that I really want that areremaining on the counter.
Yes, there are.
That's satisfying, yeah, I know.
Margie (37:11):
I've had two, I think not in one day, just for the
record, but I'm done.
But what about that?
You know, self-compassion isgreat, you know, but at some
point the rubber's got to hitthe road.
And, by the way, I want to sayI love what you're talking about
here because it is so practical.
(37:34):
It's so practical and then it'svery Christ-like approach as
well, the compassion and the youknow all of it.
It has great promise andpotential for ministry leaders
dealing with both conflictwithin themselves and then
understanding externally.
(37:54):
And we'll for sure put acontact for you in the show
notes if somebody wants to.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (38:00):
Yeah, let me.
Let me mention one more thingabout compassion.
Margie (38:04):
Because I have one last question too, but go ahead.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (38:06):
OK.
We often think compassion isjust about empathy empathizing
with somebody else orempathizing with ourself.
But compassion in the, in theway that we see conflict, in the
way we see really healthyconflict and leading out of
drama, and so we look atcompassion, returning to the
(38:26):
Latin root, which means tostruggle with.
So compassion is to strugglewith and that's what the
compassion cycle allows us to do.
We're struggling with the otherperson, not against.
So I like to think aboutplaying tennis.
I love tennis, I don't playenough anymore, but I like to
think about tennis when I'mthinking about struggling with
(38:47):
or struggling against.
So struggling against is ournormal pattern.
So if we're struggling againstsomething, we're probably
sitting, you know.
If it's another person, we'reprobably.
If we're seated at a table,we're probably seated apart from
each other, opposite of eachother, and that sets us up to
struggle against right there.
So, like tennis players, one'son one side, one's on the other
(39:07):
side.
If we then move and orientourselves side by side, it opens
up the possibility ofstruggling with.
So if I were to go have coffeewith this person at the very
least if it was a square table Iwould sit one here and one here
.
I would not sit across from ohyou would sit next to.
(39:30):
I would sit next, yes, okay, andif it was a rectangle table, I
would sit on one end, facingthis way, and I, he and I would
ask the other person sit thereand I would turn slightly so
that we're on the same side ofthe table.
It's amazing what just thatpositional thing can do.
It opens up possibilities, andso struggling with is a really
(39:52):
important part of compassion.
And when I'm addressing theintrapersonal, the internal
conflict, struggling with isstruggling with myself, right.
Conflict Struggling with isstruggling with myself, right.
So I'm struggling with the partof myself that has self doubt
and I'm struggling with the partof myself that has self
compassion, and I'm allowingthose two to struggle together.
(40:14):
Does that make?
Margie (40:17):
sense.
Oh yeah, absolutely, Absolutelyit does.
I love this picture ofcompassion because there's a
part of it where I go, okay, I'mgoing to say, all right, that's
okay, that's okay, You're not abad person for eating the donut
, you know or whatever the issueis I'm, you know, going to give
myself some compassion, but atsome point you have to hold
(40:38):
yourself accountable, and Iguess that's where you're
talking about the steps, whereyou say I'm ready to act, I'm
going to fill in the blank.
Can you talk some about theself accountability?
Rev. Geniese Stanford (40:51):
component .
It can be any food that we love, or it can be anything that we
love.
And so let's say, because Ijust went to a farm stand that
had the best fresh right now upin New England it's cider
(41:14):
donuts- See, this is what theyare.
Margie (41:16):
That's on my counter.
So now you have compassion?
Yes, I have.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (41:22):
I love those things and so OK.
So I have one donut and I'mallowing myself that and it's
great, okay.
And then I think, oh, I reallywant that other donut, I really
really want that other donut.
So I say to myself, okay, what,what?
What are my options?
I can eat the other donut, Ican eat the other donut and walk
(41:46):
more.
I can eat the other donut andjust accept that I overate it.
You know, I'm allowing myselfthat privilege.
And then the next time, what amI going to do?
I'm allowing myself thatprivilege to eat the second
donut because I will, because Iwant and I will.
(42:07):
I'll walk longer, or I won'teat carbs for dinner, or I'll.
Whatever I decide I'm going todo about it, or I might just
give myself permission to have atreat, right?
Margie (42:21):
So I rationalized this morning and said well, it is in
the morning, I'm going to havemore carb thing, it's better in
the morning and I am going tokind of this CrossFit ish thing
later in the day.
So we're doing it.
That's, that's what I said.
But I think I'm at the placewhere I'm going but there's
(42:41):
three more donuts on the counter.
So I'm thinking now what I needto do is maybe I should have my
husband take the donuts to workand he can have them one a day
in his desk.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (42:54):
So see, that's an option I know.
So you identify.
I am feeling like I want yetanother donut.
Yeah, and here are my options.
I can go have that other donut.
How am I going to feel afterthat?
I can ask my husband to takethem to work with him so that I
don't eat it, or I can get busydoing something else so that I
(43:17):
just avoid it.
Right, and so those are all myoptions.
Right, that's resourcefulness.
And then I make my commitment.
This is what I'm going tochoose to do about that.
Okay, and so that's that'sreally how.
And you might have to go arounda circle, around the compassion
cycle, multiple times.
Margie (43:37):
Yeah.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (43:37):
Right.
Margie (43:38):
We might, but the accountability piece, though, is
that is where the rubber meetsthe road, you know.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (43:45):
The third step.
What commitment am I going tomake to myself or what action am
I committing to?
Yeah and then that's where Ithink self-affirmation
statements are really helpfuland, you know, if we have a
journal handy, we might writedown what we're going to commit
to, so that we have a visualreference.
And I'm not beyond taking asticky note and writing my
(44:11):
self-affirmation on it andsticking it by the sack of
donuts.
So that as soon as I go to thatthat sack of donuts, I'm going
to see my self-affirmation aboutI'm going to X, Y, Z and then
I'm like, okay, that's, that'sanother choice I can make, right
, I really think I want thatother donut.
Margie (44:33):
But that little sticky note there is reminding me Right
.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (44:36):
I see that sticky note.
That's resourcefulness.
I was thinking ahead and now Ihave a decision to make.
So that's how that works Right.
So I'm not sure I have Ieverything that?
What do you have anotherquestion?
Margie (44:52):
No, my last question was about that self accountability
piece.
I mean, you know you can't justkeep being nice to yourself.
Isn't that a horrible thing tosay?
You can't just?
I mean you can, you can,because there's no sense in
beating yourself up.
You know, I've been there anddone that, not just about donuts
, but just in general.
You know, if somebody comes upto you on Sunday and said that
(45:15):
that sermon really fell flat, Imean that sets in motion a lot
for ministry leaders and, likeyou said, you can get to the
place where you're.
Either you're going to enactsome compassion towards yourself
, but then come to.
If you keep hearing those kindsof things, then what am I going
(45:36):
to do about that?
What am I going to commit to?
And maybe they're correct,maybe they're not.
I mean, everybody can grow inan area.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (45:47):
Well, and that's where, that's where I
enact the compassion cycle and Isay to myself okay, I just
heard feedback that was lessthan positive.
That's a fact.
Here's how I feel about that.
I feel kind of yucky about thatbecause I thought it was a good
sermon.
So what are my options?
(46:08):
I can use a different lens.
I can look at my sermondifferently.
I can.
I can maybe have somebodylisten to it ahead of time, or I
can read my sermon with an eyetowards if it's flat, or I
evaluate gosh.
I was low energy this morningbecause I didn't sleep enough.
You didn't have your coffee.
(46:28):
Right, you didn't have yourcoffee.
Margie (46:30):
Right, I didn't have my coffee.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (46:32):
And so what am I going to do about that
the next time?
So the self-compassion cycle,or the compassion cycle, kicks
in Once you have these ideas.
You don't have to be perfect atit.
The whole idea is to identifywhat you're feeling and why, and
to decide what yourpossibilities are to deal with
that, and then make a commitmentto either deal with it or not.
Margie (46:53):
No, and all of this, what you're talking about, are
tools that are going to help usto grow as people and ways that
you can manage yourself, managethe conflict that you're
experiencing and or manage, bebetter at managing yourself
within conflict, external toyourself, when people bring
(47:15):
stuff to you.
So this is this has beenextremely valuable and I'm going
to put a contact in there,maybe your email in the show
notes.
So if people wanted to reachout to you for some training,
you're probably available to dotraining for groups of ministry
leaders or even church boards inhow to identify what's going on
(47:37):
, because churches arechallenged right now.
Still, you know, post COVID,who do we want to be?
What do we want to do next?
And you know, when anxietyrises, sometimes the thinking
department goes basically in thetoilet, for lack of a better
word at the moment.
But you know, and when peopleare feeling anxious, I think
(47:58):
conflict stirs as well.
Well, thank you very much,janice, for joining us and for
giving us some really, reallypractical, practical skills for
dealing with conflict, Thank you.
So how do the pieces of yourlife fit together?
(48:20):
Do they fit together well andthings are humming along just
fine, or are there some piecesthat are tight or absent or just
not fitting the bill?
This is your invitation to joinme in my glass workshop for a
video series where I am going todo a stained glass project
(48:44):
while I talk to you aboutsustainability and building
sustainability into your heartand into your life.
So I am going to be doing myart, which is a form of
self-care, and I'm going toinvite you into that space with
me and I'm going to chat.
(49:04):
I'm going to chat aboutself-care and I'm going to show
you how I create, and there's anifty, nifty analogy Stained
glass seems to be a very goodmetaphor for what I want to talk
about, so I'd love for you tojoin me.
To do that, to opt in, I'llneed you to email me at
crabbypastor at gmailcom.
(49:27):
That's crabbypastor at gmaildot com.
So you won't want to miss this.
You definitely won't want tomiss this.
So make a plan to join me inthe glass workshop.
Are you wondering whether yourfatigue, your lack of motivation
(49:50):
, your lack of interest isburnout maybe?
I just wanted to let you knowthat I have a resource on the
website, margiebryce dot com.
That's B-R-y-c-e margiebrycedot com, and it is a burnout
(50:12):
questionnaire, free for you todownload and kind of self assess
and get a sense of where you'reat.
And there are questions thatnot only ask about what you're
going through but maybe howoften you're experiencing it and
that's kind of a key to whereyou might be, because you have
(50:32):
to know where you are in orderto chart a course forward.
And most pastors who experiencepastors and ministry leaders
who experience burnout rarelyknow that that's where they're
at until they're well into it.
And if you're unsure about thatlittle statistic, so far,
(50:56):
everybody that I've interviewedon this podcast who has
experienced burnout, when Iasked that kind of question,
they're like, yeah, I didn'tknow, that's where I was at.
So again, go to margiebryce dotcom it's on the homepage of the
website and you can get yourburnout questionnaire and kind
(51:17):
of see where you're at.
Hey friends, the Crabby Pastorpodcast is sponsored by Bryce
Art Glass and you can find thaton Facebook.
I make stained glass, that'spart of my self-care and also by
Bryce Coaching, where I coachministry leaders and business
(51:40):
leaders, and so the funds that Igenerate from coaching and from
making stained glass is what issupporting this podcast and I
will have opportunities for youto be a part of sponsoring me
and, as always, you can do thebuy me a cup of coffee thing in
(52:04):
the show notes.
But I will have some other waysthat you can be a part of
getting the word out about theimportance of healthy self-care
for ministry leaders.
Hey, thanks for listening.
It is my deep desire andpassion to champion issues of
(52:26):
sustainability in ministry andfor your life, so I'm here to
help.
I stepped back from pastoralministry and I feel called to
help ministry leaders create andcultivate sustainability in
their lives so that they can gothe distance with God and
(52:48):
whatever plans that God has foryou.
I would love to help, I wouldconsider it an honor and, in all
things, make sure you connectto these sustainability
practices you know, so that youdon't become the Crabby Pastor.
Hey there, it's Margie Bryce, your host of the Krabby
Pastor podcast, where we talkabout all things sustainability,
whether it's sustainability inministry, in your personal life
and we acknowledge that thechurch is in a transitional time
.
So we hit topics there too thatare going to stretch your mind
(00:23):
and the way you lead, especiallyhow you lead yourself, so that
you don't become the KrabbyPastor.
Well, hey there, this is MargieBryce with CraPastor Pastor
podcast.
Notice, I say Margie Bryce withthe Krabby Pastor.
That is distinct and differentfrom Margie Bryce with the
(00:44):
Krabby Pastor.
That is distinct and differentfrom Margie Bryce is the Krabby
Pastor.
Just making that point clear,for I don't know why, but I just
felt like it today.
So I am here, we're going tohave a very conflicted episode.
I just want to tell you upfront, because we're going to talk
about conflict, and actuallywhat we're going to talk about
(01:06):
is a specific kind of conflictwhich is intrapersonal, that's
I-N-T-R-A personal.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (01:30):
So I have here with me let Janice tell us
a bit about who she is and whatshe does and a bit about her
interest in conflict.
Okay, my background is I was inbusiness for 19 years Last
stint was with IBM, answered thecall into ministry and pastored
United Methodist churches for20 years and I recently moved to
the Northeast and while I was apastor I became interested in
conflict and how to do it better.
Margie (01:52):
That's interesting, that that evolved.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (01:54):
Then I'm just saying yes, because yes,
and I never felt like I coulddeal with the conflict in a
healthy way.
And so I sought out trainingand ways to educate myself and
try to learn new skills and Ifinally found what I thought
(02:14):
really fit me and it's calledLeading Out of Drama.
And I started by reading a bookCompassionate it's conflict
without casualties, and it'sbased on this idea of
compassionate accountability andI'm going to talk more about
that in a few minutes.
And so I really sought out.
The conflict in the churchbothered me because we never
(02:34):
seemed to settle it andcertainly didn't settle it in
healthy ways and it really holdschurches back from
accomplishing their mission.
And so, while I was serving asa pastor, that's really what
drove me to be interested in it.
And then I found what I felt wasa really good plan, and I had
(02:57):
been trained at the LombardPeace Center in mediation and
that kind of conflict resolutionin mediation and that kind of
conflict resolution.
And what I found and what Ireally wanted was something to
transform conflict intoproductive, into something that
produced a good result, wasn'tjust something, because in
mediation and in negotiation andcommon problem solving or
(03:19):
problem resolution, each partyusually has to give up something
because you come to an, youknow you come to an agreement
about what you're going to giveup and that's the end result.
And I didn't like the idea ofhaving to give up something
because I think when there's aconflict it probably arises out
of real especially in the churchreal concern about something,
(03:43):
and so I felt it was importantto hear that concern.
But I didn't have the skillsand I didn't know how to do it.
So I had done some training onprocess communication with Next
Element, which is a firmheadquartered in Kansas.
That's where I was servingchurches and it was all about
understanding how peoplecommunicate and what that tells
you about the best way tocommunicate with them.
(04:04):
And at the same time, nateRegeer, who's the CEO, was
writing this book, conflictWithout Casualties, and I became
very interested and I actuallyended up being on the launch
team for that book and thatreally started me down this path
of understanding conflict in anew way, writing me down this
(04:28):
path of understanding conflictin a new way.
And so the way I defineconflict, or the way that we
define conflict, is the gapbetween what I'm experiencing
and what I want to experience.
Margie (04:38):
Oh, okay, say that again .
Rev. Geniese Stanford (04:42):
Okay, conflict is the gap between what
I'm experiencing, currentlyexperiencing, and what I want to
experience.
And here's a really easyexample.
Okay, so let's say that I'm onthe way to work, if I work for a
church.
I'm on my way to the church andI have a meeting and I realize,
as I'm leaving the house, I didnot have that last cup of
(05:04):
coffee that I really wanted.
So I think, oh good, there'sStarbucks on my way to the
church, I'll just drive throughand I can still get to the
church on time.
And I drive up to Starbucks andI see 10 cars in the drive
through.
All right, what am Iexperiencing?
I really want coffee.
Margie (05:24):
If you're coffee deprived, you're pretty cheesed
at the long line.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (05:28):
Oh yeah, I'm really irritated and so I
see I want coffee.
I see this 10 car line, I'mlike, okay, the dilemma, so the
conflict is do I get the coffeethat I want or do I show up to
the meeting on time?
I can't have both Right.
That's internal conflict.
(05:49):
It's the gap between what Iwant or what I'm currently
experiencing, which is I wantcoffee, and what I want to
experience.
I want coffee, but there's agap.
I can't get it in time to makemy meeting, so I have to make
that trade off.
So that's internal conflict.
It's only conflict thatinvolves me.
Margie (06:09):
Okay, so that's the same internal conflict.
Would that be another way tosay intrapersonal?
Rev. Geniese Stanford (06:16):
Internal conflict is intrapersonal
meaning inside myself.
Margie (06:20):
So it's me, myself and I , that merry threesome, there
having conflict, that's right.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (06:27):
With every conflict there's a
decision point, right, am Igoing to?
How am I going to address thatgap?
Because I'm going to address itone way or the other and that's
something that I have to decidein the moment.
In this example and thisapplies to all kinds of
conflicts I mean that's a simpleeveryday conflict that we all
(06:50):
have and we pretty much know howto handle those, and it might
it might affect my day for alittle while, but eventually I'm
okay and you know, I figure outa way to solve it.
Maybe I make coffee at thechurch, or maybe I, after that
first meeting, I go get myStarbucks.
I mean, there's lots ofdifferent ways to solve it.
Maybe I make coffee at thechurch, or maybe I, after that
first meeting, I go get myStarbucks.
I mean, there's lots ofdifferent ways to solve it.
Margie (07:09):
Or maybe you go to get in line, get the coffee and be
late.
Forgiveness, that's trueBecause they would want you
there with coffee rather thanwithout.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (07:20):
That's very true, because interpersonal
conflict can turn tointerpersonal conflict?
Margie (07:27):
Yes, and that, I think, is the issue.
I was really fascinated.
We talked I actually met Janicethrough the ministerial
coaching initiative that is outof Point Loma, nazarene.
It's not just Nazarene, it's amore broad base any pastors and
maybe I'll stick the link in theshow notes but we met and
(07:50):
connected on there and you knowwe can have wonderful chats
right, but along the way, youknow we were talking about how
this internal conflict can showup then in the church
environment for the ministryleader and how that can impact.
Can you say more on that?
Rev. Geniese Stanford (08:12):
Yeah.
So let's take it to to a howintrapersonal conflict shows up
in conflict with others, and wedon't have to be church specific
, but we can be Really.
The whole focus ofintrapersonal is what's going on
inside me.
So with church conflict, I as apastor always felt
(08:34):
uncomfortable and a sense ofthis is a church.
What I've learned is thatconflict is natural and normal
and you cannot make progresswithout conflict.
Because if I'm just satisfiedwith how things all are, which
(08:56):
is unrealistic, but if that'swhat I'm telling myself, then I
am not motivated to do anythingabout it.
To do anything about it.
So the gap is actually can belooked at as motivation.
Conflict actually can bepositive if I know how to
navigate it and how to use theenergy.
(09:16):
So conflict is basically energy.
That gap is filled with energy.
So what I'm experiencing andwhat I want to experience that
gap, that's energy.
And in the case of the coffee,I use that energy first to
decide what I'm gonna do aboutit and then to deal with how I
decided to deal with it.
So I might use that energy in apositive way.
(09:39):
I might just say you know, Ican do without the coffee, I'm
gonna be on time for my meetingand I'm not going to let not
having coffee affect me, andthat's a choice I make.
So there's energy in that gapand I can choose how to use that
energy and if I use itpositively, I transform it into
positive, then that's howpositive change can occur.
If I allow that energy to beused negatively, that's called
(10:03):
drama.
Oh, and drama is not only anenergy vampire, it's a vampire
to getting anything done.
And drama shows up internallyas well as externally, because
however we are feelinginternally can affect how we
react and how we interact withother people.
So it's important to notice, tokind of do a scan of myself on
(10:29):
a regular basis to see where amI experiencing conflict within
myself?
That's really whatintra-personal conflict is about
is where does the conflictexist within me, what am I
experiencing and how do I wantto experience something
differently?
And, for example, we all knowthat health, both mental and
(10:50):
physical health, reallycontributes to the status of a
pastor's.
Health really contributes tohow effective they can be as a
pastor.
Yeah To that.
Margie (11:02):
That's kind of my shtick right.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (11:10):
That's right, and so if I am in poor
health because of the choices Imake, then I have to decide if
I'm going to do anything aboutthat.
I mean, I can just stay in mybubble of poor health and not do
anything about it, and and Iwill.
For me, for example, if I'm inpoor health or I'm not taking
(11:30):
care of myself, there's acertain angst that builds up,
and that's the intrapersonalconflict, and that angst steals
energy from everything else,because I'm using it, I'm using
the energy that I have, and it'sit's negative energy and it
pulls me down because I'm eitherself critical oh, you're just.
(11:51):
You know you need to goexercise, I don't feel like
exercising.
It's that internal conversationI have.
You know, if you want to gethealthy, you need to go exercise
.
Yeah, I know that, but this isself talk.
But I really don't feel likeexercising.
Yeah, I know that, but this isself-talk, but I and helps you
(12:24):
identify the gaps.
So if you catch yourself sayingthat's just terrible.
You know about something, adecision you're making or
something you don't do, and youstart thinking about how
terrible you feel about that,you've just uncovered an
internal conflict that youprobably need to address.
You've just uncovered aninternal conflict that you
(12:47):
probably need to address.
I need to, whatever theconflict is, whatever I'm
currently experiencing, that isnot what.
Margie (12:59):
I want to experience.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (12:59):
I, for one, have a vision of what I
want to be, experiencing, how Iwant to be, and when I'm not,
that I'm not at my best, and sothere's a gap.
What I'm currently experiencingis I am not exercising enough.
Right, I'm not exercisingenough and I can.
There's what we call internalmyths about ourselves and about
(13:19):
others, and my myth is I'm not agood person because I'm not
exercising and I'm overweightand so therefore, and it, it, it
can lock me down, it can zapall my energy.
So a really important part inuncovering intra, this internal
conflict, is to use a simpletool called I want, because I
(13:44):
want, I want, and so it'sbecause, okay, because.
And so it goes like this, andit's really a personal
affirmation.
Self-affirmation is soimportant Anytime we're talking
about interpersonal conflict orjust growing in our personhood.
So the positive affirmation isI want.
So I'm going to define the gap.
(14:05):
So here's what I'm experiencingI want to experience this.
So for me, I have grandkidsright now, I want to be able to
play longer in the backyard withmy grandson.
There's a gap I'm not able todo that right now.
I can play a short time, but Idon't have the stamina to play a
(14:27):
long time.
So I want and why do I want tospend more time with my grandson
in the backyard.
That's where the because.
So I want X, y, z, because,well, I want to have more
stamina and play longer with mygrandson in the backyard.
Because it's great bonding timewith him.
It's a lot of fun.
(14:47):
I love being with him and withthe family.
I love being outside, and Idon't feel good when I have to
cut it short because I don'thave the stamina.
So, because, because, because,because I don't have the stamina
, because I'm not in good shape,I don't.
(15:10):
The outcome is I don't get whatI really want, which is a
longer time to play with mygrandson in the backyard.
Margie (15:16):
It can be as simple as that.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (15:18):
But the important thing is to say I want
, because of all the things itdoes.
It makes me closer to mygrandson.
It's a lot of fun.
I'm building up, you know,positive feelings with him.
I'm showing up in his life, allthose different things.
It's giving me great joy.
And so there's a gap, though,because I want to be able to
(15:42):
play as long as he wants to, butI'm not physically able, and so
I have to decide am I going todo something about that gap?
Is the gap strong enough?
Is my desire to be differentstrong enough?
And that's where negative mythscan come in.
I can have negative self-talkthat says you've been here
(16:03):
before, you always said youwanted to be in better shape,
but you just don't do it.
And so then my answer back is Iwant to increase my stamina so
I can get this result of beingwith my grandson more.
(16:23):
Because of all the reasons, Ireturn to that, and then I say
okay, then I hold myselfaccountable.
What am I willing to commit to?
So there's this.
It's defining the conflict,defining the gap, defining what
I want instead of the gap.
So I define what I'm currentlyexperiencing.
I define what I want toexperience, I of the gap.
So I define what I'm currentlyexperiencing, I define what I
(16:46):
want to experience.
I see the gap, then I decidewhat I'm going to do about the
gap.
Margie (16:51):
Right, this speaks a lot a lot, a lot to and I've talked
to Dr Chris Adams about thisbefore.
There's a podcast about thatvery thing the resistance to
doing self-care and taking itreally serious.
Because if you talk to us about, if you have all this internal
(17:15):
conflict going on whether it'sdue to self-care or some other
issues how that impacts, how youshow up to other people.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (17:28):
Well, and if I have these unresolved
conflicts number one, if Ihaven't named them, if I haven't
really spent the time to lookdeeply in myself and know what
my internal conflicts are, thenit shows up in ways that I can't
even detect.
Right it just, it colors mythinking, because it can result
in low self, self what am Itrying to say?
(17:51):
Self-affirmation.
It can result in I'm more edgy,it can result in lack of
satisfaction, and so I bring allof that into relationship.
Margie (18:02):
You can be.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (18:02):
you can be crabby bring all of that into
relationship.
You can be crabby, crabby.
That pretty much defines it.
I mean, if I'm really, if Ihave a real sizable conflict
going on interpersonal conflictI'm really unhappy with where I
am.
That that unhappiness is goingto carry over and it's going to
show up in conflict with otherpeople.
(18:23):
Sure, sure, because I'm not mybest self.
Margie (18:25):
Sure, and this kind of very thing is something that
we're having a coach, which weboth are but having a coach can
be very helpful, help you tounravel some of the internal
conflict that you have going onand then ask that question what
(18:45):
am I willing to do about this?
I mean, what do we say aboutourselves if we aren't willing?
Because this happens?
You know, I mean the ApostlePaul.
I keep thinking about thisbecause I have to do a
presentation in October at theSociety of Professors of
Christian Ministry, and I'mthinking about the Apostle Paul
(19:06):
in this section where he saysyou know, what I want to do, I
don't do, and what I that's thisis a bad paraphrase here that
I'm doing, but you kind of.
I've read that and I love thatbecause I thought, oh, how many
of us are there?
All of us, I think.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (19:22):
That is self-talk of internal conflict
all of us.
I think that is self-talk ofinternal conflict.
Yes, what I want to do, I do,and what I don't want to do, I
do.
Yeah, what's up with that?
I know?
Well, you've got an internalconflict and it's time to sit
down and say I want X Y Zbecause X Y Z and look at that
and decide, okay, this is whatI'm going to do about it.
(19:42):
But more than that, what thisinternal, unresolved conflict
will do is it affects myself-confidence.
It affects how I show up aroundother people, because if I feel
like I'm not even taking careof myself, how can I possibly
take care of someone else?
And I think that's the missingthing for a lot of pastors is we
(20:05):
put all of our energy intocaring for other people and we
forget that we really have to.
We need a healthy core to beable to minister, and so we got
to work on ourselves.
Yeah, that can't stop us fromcontinuing to serve as a pastor,
but we need to.
(20:25):
We need to up our, ourself-talk with self-affirmation
and we need to give ourselvesself-compassion.
I'm just recently connected withthis idea of self-compassion.
And how do I, when, when I makea commitment to myself to do
something and then I don'tfollow through.
I need to have self-compassionabout that, not criticize myself
(20:49):
too much, not decide, not haveself-talk of I'm just a failure,
I can't get anything done, blah, blah, blah.
That's not going to help.
I need to have self-compassion,so I need to say okay, what's
in my way, again, identifyingthat gap.
There's a gap in what I'mexperiencing, what I want to
(21:09):
experience what's?
in my way Right now.
What's in my?
Margie (21:12):
way are the cider donuts on the counter that my husband
had he got.
We went to a cider mill and hegot sick.
He goes.
Look, it's only six on here.
I can have one a day for thenext six days.
Well, you know, I don't know, Alot of people aren't excited
about those plain cider donuts,but you know, I had one this
(21:33):
morning and I thought what Ineed to do is crumble these up,
Put them in the garbage.
I need to do, or maybe put himin a lockbox that only he has
the code for something, Cause I,you know, I refuse to do the.
Oh, I'm a terrible personbecause I ate this donut once a
(21:55):
year.
You know what I mean.
You gotta be real.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (21:58):
Yeah, well, and and that's the, that's
the self-talk, that's thenegative or positive self-talk.
And you know you just had.
You just described an internalconflict, perfectly Right.
I see, the cider donut, Ireally want it, but I know it's
not good for me, but what am Igoing to do about it?
Or the second or third ciderdonut that you want, because the
(22:21):
first one was so good.
Margie (22:21):
I know it can go.
It can go like that, and thenthere you are, you're, you're
off to the right and then wehave.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (22:29):
Then we have the negative self-talk
about why did I do that, theregret right.
So internal conflict can showup in a lot of ways.
It can show up as regret, andif I'm feeling regret about
something, then I probably had agap between what I experienced
and what I wanted to experience.
And so part of this journey ofidentifying internal conflict is
(22:54):
to really do someself-examination about what do I
want for my life in this timeand in this place, for my life
in this time and in this placeand a coach can be very helpful
in that, a therapist can be veryhelpful in that.
Or we can do it on our own, andthat's I love journaling for
(23:16):
that reason, because I can doall the self-talk I need to in a
journal, I can write downwhatever train of thought is and
I can go back and I can seewhere the gaps are existing and
where I'm experiencing conflictand didn't realize it.
Because part of the big leap isto identify the gaps, because I
(23:38):
have to decide what I want, whatdo I really want, and then I
can identify how far I am fromwhat I really want and then
pursue it.
And then pursue it and takesmall steps and how this affects
conflict with others is ifwe're in a place where we don't
(24:00):
feel satisfied with ourself,we're unhappy with ourself.
We're already experiencing abunch of satisfied with
ourselves.
We're unhappy with ourselves.
We're already experiencing abunch of gaps within ourselves.
My self-talk can turn negative.
I can start to have all kindsof doubts about my ability or my
other reaction can be as I lockin.
I take a very firm position andI'm not willing to move off of
(24:27):
it because I need somethingthat's solid and stable.
So give me an example of that.
Okay.
So let's say that somebodycomes up to you at church and
and says we really need tochange the time of worship.
It's just not working for ouryoung families.
We need to change the time ofworship.
It's just not working for ouryoung families, we need to
change the time of worship.
And I've told you about this 10times.
(24:49):
Okay, in that moment, where am Ion my scale?
You know, I'm experiencingsomething, probably not what I
wanted to experience.
Do I have the capacity torespond in a way and I teach
this, I do training for this torespond in a healthy way, even
when I'm low on my own capacity.
(25:09):
And so, in the moment, how do Ianswer that without creating
greater conflict?
I mean, I can just say, look,we're not going to change
worship time and I walk away.
Well, that doesn't help.
That person is going to go offfeeling unheard and probably
(25:33):
angrier because I didn't taketheir concern seriously, and so
I teach their skills.
So let me step back for aminute and talk about roles we
play in conflict, and this isinternal as well as external.
So roles we play in conflictOne is victim.
Margie (25:54):
We all like that one today.
I think the culture reinforcesthat.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (26:00):
Yeah, I think it does too, and I'm
looking for validation fromother sources instead of
self-validation andself-compassion.
And so a victim might give in.
A victim might avoid conflictbecause they don't want to go
there.
Another role we play in andthese are roles, this isn't who
(26:24):
we are, these are roles we play.
Another role we play is rescuer.
I'm going to jump in and fix it.
So somebody comes to me with acomplaint, I'm going to tell
them how to fix it right away.
I'm going to jump in and givehelp where it's not offered, and
I do that partly because itmakes me feel good, and I have
this myth that I believe I canmake others feel good, which is
(26:44):
a myth I can't Right.
Margie (26:47):
I can't make other, and pastors are great fixers.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (26:52):
Yes, and that's.
We're probably playing a rescuerrole a lot of that time.
And the third role is so thepersecutor is one who is self,
(27:20):
what's the right word is theauthority, and, like a
persecutor might say, do this orelse, so we can have internal
persecutor right, that when Ieat that second donut, that was
stupid, that's an internalpersecutor right.
Or if somebody, like theexample I used, somebody comes
up and says we really need tochange the time of worship, you
don't have a clue, do you?
We would probably never say itthat directly, but that may be
(27:44):
what we're thinking and it'sgoing to come out in our
communication, and so I can fallinto the persecutor role often,
because I feel trapped and I,you know, maybe he's the fifth
person and maybe we've talkedabout changing worship times and
we've been at an impasse.
You know, he doesn't know whatwe've been talking about in
meetings and maybe I'm sofrustrated that I just say I'm
(28:06):
not even going to consider it,and that's OK if that's really
true, but said in a way that ifI say it like that, it's going
to immediately turn that personaway.
Margie (28:19):
Yeah, it certainly isn't what Jesus would say, is it?
I don't think so.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (28:23):
No, so those are roles we play, and we
play all of the roles, but wehave a dominant role.
It isn't what Jesus would say,is it?
I don't think so.
No, right.
So those are roles we play, andwe play all of the roles, but
we have a dominant role.
And I have a tool called theDrama Resilience Assessment that
defines those roles, that helpsyou identify what's your most
frequent role and what is yourleast frequent role.
Margie (28:38):
But we all play those roles in different circumstances
, I'll have to get that linkfrom you to put in the show
notes.
I know you already have it.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (28:46):
The drama resilience assessment is only
through a class that I teach, oh, okay.
Okay, yeah, and it also.
Then there's compassion skillsthat match up to the drama roles
, and so the compassion skillsare for victim openness about
what I'm feeling, what I want,or it could be affirming what
(29:06):
the other person is feeling orwanting, if this is
interpersonal.
So, for example, the compassionskill is I might say to the guy
gosh, I hear you, this soundsreally important to you, okay.
So I've just addressed that.
I hear him and that I see thatit's important to him, or it
wouldn't have brought it up tome.
And then I move around.
(29:29):
It's called the compassioncycle.
So I move to the next step,which is resourcefulness.
So I might say to him and itdepends on, you know, part of
this depends on me knowingexactly what I want and what I
believe and what I hold firm to.
So I might say to him you knowwe've been having conversations
about that, we're going to havea meeting in a couple of weeks.
(29:53):
If this happens to be going on,and I'd love to have your input
before then, would you give mesome ideas about your ideas
about changing the worship time?
And then we move to the nextstep in the same sentence, and
we say and it's called thepersistence role or compassion
(30:13):
skill and I say, because that'smy word that takes the
resourcefulness and connects itto the persistence, and
persistence is about settingboundaries or making commitments
, and so I'd really like to haveyour ideas, because worship is
really important to me and tothis church and I'm committed to
(30:38):
it being the very best worshipthat it possibly can be.
And so then we return to thatperson and we let them respond,
and so it's called thecompassion cycle, and what it
does is I will be able torecognize, after the training, I
will be able to recognize ifsomebody's coming to me in a
victim role or in a rescuer role, or in a persecutor role.
(31:02):
I'll be able to tell Persecutorwould sound like this this
worship time stinks and I'm notcoming back.
That's a persecutor role, right, and that just tells me that's
really, really, really importantto this person and something's
going on.
They feel really strongly aboutthis, and that's what I would
say is wow, it sounds like youfeel really strongly about this.
Margie (31:24):
I really want to hear more about this, and that's what
I would say is wow it soundslike you feel really strongly
about this.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (31:26):
I really want to hear more about this,
because if it's if it's a churchmember, I'm not going to let
that just sit there.
Right?
I really want to hear moreabout that.
Now.
It has to be sincere, right?
Let's get together and set atime or whatever.
And that's how I close thatcompassion cycle.
So I'm using my compassionskills to respond to the
(31:51):
conflict and the particular rolethey're in in the conflict.
That's true internally too.
Bringing it back tointrapersonal.
So in that moment I am probablyexperiencing intrapersonal
conflict too, and this is wherebeing aware of self-talk is
really important.
So what's going on behind thescenes inside me?
(32:13):
In that moment of conflict?
Maybe I'm saying to myself Iknew this was going to come up.
I knew that you know whyhaven't I taken care of this
before?
Or, or I might feel trapped,like I have no idea what to say.
This guy I don't know, you knowwho knows where I am?
Oh no, not him again.
Oh no, not him again yeah.
(32:36):
Which which, if I pay attentionto that, I might miss an
opportunity to invite him to adifferent place, to a different
way of seeing things.
So every conflict is anopportunity to close that gap.
Margie (32:53):
Well, isn't then also the oh no, not him again.
I mean, that's kind of a victimresponse, absolutely On my, you
know, on my end, like so if yousay that and then you go oh no,
now I'm behaving as if I'm thevictim.
How can I step into somethingbetter?
Rev. Geniese Stanford (33:12):
Yeah, and in the moment that's where the
compassion skills and thetraining really helps, Because
in the moment I don't have timenecessarily to think through all
of that.
Margie (33:20):
Right.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (33:21):
But if I know how to do it and I've
practiced it and I've dealt withmyself, so the same thing
happens with myself.
So I can, I can use thecompassion cycle with myself.
So back to the the.
I want to play longer with mygrandson, but I don't have the
stamina and I'm not doinganything about it.
So that's where I I say how Ifeel about it.
(33:45):
I feel unsuccessful or I feelterrible, or I I feel like I'm
missing something.
And then I go toresourcefulness.
So it openness is a lot aboutidentifying feelings.
Feelings and wants.
Ooh, that yeah, and for somepeople that's hard.
(34:05):
Let me give you a hint aboutthat.
There is out on the internet,there's a feeling wheel and it
has every kind of feeling, and Igrew up in a family that did
not express feeling so I've hadto turn to learning how to
express feelings by using afeeling wheel.
It's really, really important tolabel and to identify what
(34:28):
we're feeling and be veryspecific.
So I acknowledge what I'mfeeling and then I think through
resourcefulness Okay, how can Irespond to this guy?
That's not going to alienatehim further.
He's obviously experiencing agap himself.
I'm experiencing a gap becauseI'm uncomfortable, and so how
(34:52):
can I?
You know, I'm thinking tomyself, how can I respond?
In a resourceful way?
Or for myself, I'm thinking,okay, what are my options?
If I want to exercise, if Iwant to have more stamina, what
are my options?
That's resourceful, OK, so Icould walk every day, I could
start eating better.
You know all my possibilities.
(35:13):
That's the resourcefulness step.
And then I make a commitment.
That's the persistence step, soI can use the compassion cycle
myself and it might be somethingthat I work through through
journaling over a period of time, depending on how big the
conflict is, how much I reallyam motivated to address it.
(35:33):
And so there are.
There's understanding the dramarole you're in and identifying
the drama that you'reexperiencing.
So that gap between what I wantand what I'm currently
experiencing, and if I let ittake a negative bent, that's
(35:54):
going to be drama.
It's going to zap all my energyand I'm not going to have the
energy to address it.
So instead I make the decision,the choice to go to have
self-compassion and the steps inself-compassion if I really
want to do something about it.
I mean I can just haveself-compassion and say I'm not
ready to do something about thisyet and that's OK.
(36:16):
And for the moment I've solvedthat conflict until the next
time I go play and I have tostop and sit down.
Margie (36:22):
Right, because I don't have the stamina.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (36:24):
So then the conflict's back, and maybe
this time I go play and I haveto stop and sit down right
Because I don't have the stamina.
So then the conflict's back,and maybe this time I'm ready to
address it, I'm ready to takesteps, and so I apply the
compassion cycle to myself, andI'm doing this preferably by
journaling.
But some people only want to doit thoughtfully.
And part of theself-affirmation is and at the
(36:46):
persistent stage is to say Iwill or I will not Right, and to
write that down as anaffirmation.
Margie (36:56):
I will start walking every day, I will stop eating
the donuts on the counter.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (37:03):
I will stop eating the three donuts
that I really want that areremaining on the counter.
Yes, there are.
That's satisfying, yeah, I know.
Margie (37:11):
I've had two, I think not in one day, just for the
record, but I'm done.
But what about that?
You know, self-compassion isgreat, you know, but at some
point the rubber's got to hitthe road.
And, by the way, I want to sayI love what you're talking about
here because it is so practical.
(37:34):
It's so practical and then it'svery Christ-like approach as
well, the compassion and the youknow all of it.
It has great promise andpotential for ministry leaders
dealing with both conflictwithin themselves and then
understanding externally.
(37:54):
And we'll for sure put acontact for you in the show
notes if somebody wants to.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (38:00):
Yeah, let me.
Let me mention one more thingabout compassion.
Margie (38:04):
Because I have one last question too, but go ahead.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (38:06):
OK.
We often think compassion isjust about empathy empathizing
with somebody else orempathizing with ourself.
But compassion in the, in theway that we see conflict, in the
way we see really healthyconflict and leading out of
drama, and so we look atcompassion, returning to the
(38:26):
Latin root, which means tostruggle with.
So compassion is to strugglewith and that's what the
compassion cycle allows us to do.
We're struggling with the otherperson, not against.
So I like to think aboutplaying tennis.
I love tennis, I don't playenough anymore, but I like to
think about tennis when I'mthinking about struggling with
(38:47):
or struggling against.
So struggling against is ournormal pattern.
So if we're struggling againstsomething, we're probably
sitting, you know.
If it's another person, we'reprobably.
If we're seated at a table,we're probably seated apart from
each other, opposite of eachother, and that sets us up to
struggle against right there.
So, like tennis players, one'son one side, one's on the other
(39:07):
side.
If we then move and orientourselves side by side, it opens
up the possibility ofstruggling with.
So if I were to go have coffeewith this person at the very
least if it was a square table Iwould sit one here and one here
.
I would not sit across from ohyou would sit next to.
(39:30):
I would sit next, yes, okay, andif it was a rectangle table, I
would sit on one end, facingthis way, and I, he and I would
ask the other person sit thereand I would turn slightly so
that we're on the same side ofthe table.
It's amazing what just thatpositional thing can do.
It opens up possibilities, andso struggling with is a really
(39:52):
important part of compassion.
And when I'm addressing theintrapersonal, the internal
conflict, struggling with isstruggling with myself, right.
Conflict Struggling with isstruggling with myself, right.
So I'm struggling with the partof myself that has self doubt
and I'm struggling with the partof myself that has self
compassion, and I'm allowingthose two to struggle together.
(40:14):
Does that make?
Margie (40:17):
sense.
Oh yeah, absolutely, Absolutelyit does.
I love this picture ofcompassion because there's a
part of it where I go, okay, I'mgoing to say, all right, that's
okay, that's okay, You're not abad person for eating the donut
, you know or whatever the issueis I'm, you know, going to give
myself some compassion, but atsome point you have to hold
(40:38):
yourself accountable, and Iguess that's where you're
talking about the steps, whereyou say I'm ready to act, I'm
going to fill in the blank.
Can you talk some about theself accountability?
Rev. Geniese Stanford (40:51):
component .
It can be any food that we love, or it can be anything that we
love.
And so let's say, because Ijust went to a farm stand that
had the best fresh right now upin New England it's cider
(41:14):
donuts- See, this is what theyare.
Margie (41:16):
That's on my counter.
So now you have compassion?
Yes, I have.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (41:22):
I love those things and so OK.
So I have one donut and I'mallowing myself that and it's
great, okay.
And then I think, oh, I reallywant that other donut, I really
really want that other donut.
So I say to myself, okay, what,what?
What are my options?
I can eat the other donut, Ican eat the other donut and walk
(41:46):
more.
I can eat the other donut andjust accept that I overate it.
You know, I'm allowing myselfthat privilege.
And then the next time, what amI going to do?
I'm allowing myself thatprivilege to eat the second
donut because I will, because Iwant and I will.
(42:07):
I'll walk longer, or I won'teat carbs for dinner, or I'll.
Whatever I decide I'm going todo about it, or I might just
give myself permission to have atreat, right?
Margie (42:21):
So I rationalized this morning and said well, it is in
the morning, I'm going to havemore carb thing, it's better in
the morning and I am going tokind of this CrossFit ish thing
later in the day.
So we're doing it.
That's, that's what I said.
But I think I'm at the placewhere I'm going but there's
(42:41):
three more donuts on the counter.
So I'm thinking now what I needto do is maybe I should have my
husband take the donuts to workand he can have them one a day
in his desk.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (42:54):
So see, that's an option I know.
So you identify.
I am feeling like I want yetanother donut.
Yeah, and here are my options.
I can go have that other donut.
How am I going to feel afterthat?
I can ask my husband to takethem to work with him so that I
don't eat it, or I can get busydoing something else so that I
(43:17):
just avoid it.
Right, and so those are all myoptions.
Right, that's resourcefulness.
And then I make my commitment.
This is what I'm going tochoose to do about that.
Okay, and so that's that'sreally how.
And you might have to go arounda circle, around the compassion
cycle, multiple times.
Margie (43:37):
Yeah.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (43:37):
Right.
Margie (43:38):
We might, but the accountability piece, though, is
that is where the rubber meetsthe road, you know.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (43:45):
The third step.
What commitment am I going tomake to myself or what action am
I committing to?
Yeah and then that's where Ithink self-affirmation
statements are really helpfuland, you know, if we have a
journal handy, we might writedown what we're going to commit
to, so that we have a visualreference.
And I'm not beyond taking asticky note and writing my
(44:11):
self-affirmation on it andsticking it by the sack of
donuts.
So that as soon as I go to thatthat sack of donuts, I'm going
to see my self-affirmation aboutI'm going to X, Y, Z and then
I'm like, okay, that's, that'sanother choice I can make, right
, I really think I want thatother donut.
Margie (44:33):
But that little sticky note there is reminding me Right
.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (44:36):
I see that sticky note.
That's resourcefulness.
I was thinking ahead and now Ihave a decision to make.
So that's how that works Right.
So I'm not sure I have Ieverything that?
What do you have anotherquestion?
Margie (44:52):
No, my last question was about that self accountability
piece.
I mean, you know you can't justkeep being nice to yourself.
Isn't that a horrible thing tosay?
You can't just?
I mean you can, you can,because there's no sense in
beating yourself up.
You know, I've been there anddone that, not just about donuts
, but just in general.
You know, if somebody comes upto you on Sunday and said that
(45:15):
that sermon really fell flat, Imean that sets in motion a lot
for ministry leaders and, likeyou said, you can get to the
place where you're.
Either you're going to enactsome compassion towards yourself
, but then come to.
If you keep hearing those kindsof things, then what am I going
(45:36):
to do about that?
What am I going to commit to?
And maybe they're correct,maybe they're not.
I mean, everybody can grow inan area.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (45:47):
Well, and that's where, that's where I
enact the compassion cycle and Isay to myself okay, I just
heard feedback that was lessthan positive.
That's a fact.
Here's how I feel about that.
I feel kind of yucky about thatbecause I thought it was a good
sermon.
So what are my options?
(46:08):
I can use a different lens.
I can look at my sermondifferently.
I can.
I can maybe have somebodylisten to it ahead of time, or I
can read my sermon with an eyetowards if it's flat, or I
evaluate gosh.
I was low energy this morningbecause I didn't sleep enough.
You didn't have your coffee.
(46:28):
Right, you didn't have yourcoffee.
Margie (46:30):
Right, I didn't have my coffee.
Rev. Geniese Stanford (46:32):
And so what am I going to do about that
the next time?
So the self-compassion cycle,or the compassion cycle, kicks
in Once you have these ideas.
You don't have to be perfect atit.
The whole idea is to identifywhat you're feeling and why, and
to decide what yourpossibilities are to deal with
that, and then make a commitmentto either deal with it or not.
Margie (46:53):
No, and all of this, what you're talking about, are
tools that are going to help usto grow as people and ways that
you can manage yourself, managethe conflict that you're
experiencing and or manage, bebetter at managing yourself
within conflict, external toyourself, when people bring
(47:15):
stuff to you.
So this is this has beenextremely valuable and I'm going
to put a contact in there,maybe your email in the show
notes.
So if people wanted to reachout to you for some training,
you're probably available to dotraining for groups of ministry
leaders or even church boards inhow to identify what's going on
(47:37):
, because churches arechallenged right now.
Still, you know, post COVID,who do we want to be?
What do we want to do next?
And you know, when anxietyrises, sometimes the thinking
department goes basically in thetoilet, for lack of a better
word at the moment.
But you know, and when peopleare feeling anxious, I think
(47:58):
conflict stirs as well.
Well, thank you very much,janice, for joining us and for
giving us some really, reallypractical, practical skills for
dealing with conflict, Thank you.
So how do the pieces of yourlife fit together?
(48:20):
Do they fit together well andthings are humming along just
fine, or are there some piecesthat are tight or absent or just
not fitting the bill?
This is your invitation to joinme in my glass workshop for a
video series where I am going todo a stained glass project
(48:44):
while I talk to you aboutsustainability and building
sustainability into your heartand into your life.
So I am going to be doing myart, which is a form of
self-care, and I'm going toinvite you into that space with
me and I'm going to chat.
(49:04):
I'm going to chat aboutself-care and I'm going to show
you how I create, and there's anifty, nifty analogy Stained
glass seems to be a very goodmetaphor for what I want to talk
about, so I'd love for you tojoin me.
To do that, to opt in, I'llneed you to email me at
crabbypastor at gmailcom.
(49:27):
That's crabbypastor at gmaildot com.
So you won't want to miss this.
You definitely won't want tomiss this.
So make a plan to join me inthe glass workshop.
Are you wondering whether yourfatigue, your lack of motivation
(49:50):
, your lack of interest isburnout maybe?
I just wanted to let you knowthat I have a resource on the
website, margiebryce dot com.
That's B-R-y-c-e margiebrycedot com, and it is a burnout
(50:12):
questionnaire, free for you todownload and kind of self assess
and get a sense of where you'reat.
And there are questions thatnot only ask about what you're
going through but maybe howoften you're experiencing it and
that's kind of a key to whereyou might be, because you have
(50:32):
to know where you are in orderto chart a course forward.
And most pastors who experiencepastors and ministry leaders
who experience burnout rarelyknow that that's where they're
at until they're well into it.
And if you're unsure about thatlittle statistic, so far,
(50:56):
everybody that I've interviewedon this podcast who has
experienced burnout, when Iasked that kind of question,
they're like, yeah, I didn'tknow, that's where I was at.
So again, go to margiebryce dotcom it's on the homepage of the
website and you can get yourburnout questionnaire and kind
(51:17):
of see where you're at.
Hey friends, the Crabby Pastorpodcast is sponsored by Bryce
Art Glass and you can find thaton Facebook.
I make stained glass, that'spart of my self-care and also by
Bryce Coaching, where I coachministry leaders and business
(51:40):
leaders, and so the funds that Igenerate from coaching and from
making stained glass is what issupporting this podcast and I
will have opportunities for youto be a part of sponsoring me
and, as always, you can do thebuy me a cup of coffee thing in
(52:04):
the show notes.
But I will have some other waysthat you can be a part of
getting the word out about theimportance of healthy self-care
for ministry leaders.
Hey, thanks for listening.
It is my deep desire andpassion to champion issues of
(52:26):
sustainability in ministry andfor your life, so I'm here to
help.
I stepped back from pastoralministry and I feel called to
help ministry leaders create andcultivate sustainability in
their lives so that they can gothe distance with God and
(52:48):
whatever plans that God has foryou.
I would love to help, I wouldconsider it an honor and, in all
things, make sure you connectto these sustainability
practices you know, so that youdon't become the Crabby Pastor.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.