December 4, 2024 • 38 mins
What happens when a dedicated discipleship pastor faces the crushing weight of ministry burnout? This episode of the Crabby Pastor podcast brings you another Back from Burnout saga with an eye-opening conversation about pastor health featuring our brave guest, Rob Gashler, who shares his personal story of navigating the challenging waters of ministry burnout and recovery. From his experience in college ministry and church planting to his current role at Second Baptist Church in Baytown, Texas, Rob opens up about the anxiety and pressures that led to a breaking point. His journey underscores the critical need to seek new paths when necessary.
Burnout isn't just an individual struggle—it's an issue deeply intertwined with organizational structures and cultural expectations. Join us as we uncover how environments can become 'burnout factories,' placing undue blame on individuals while ignoring systemic issues. Through our discussion, we highlight the essential balance of spiritual, mental, and emotional well-being, drawing on insights from Pastor Wayne Cordero's "Leading on Empty." We confront the relentless North American productivity culture and advocate for a faith-centered approach to work and leadership, emphasizing rest, boundaries, and quiet time with God as crucial elements for sustainability.
I am passionate about fostering sustainable ministry practices and invite you to explore this vital subject as there are very few warning signs that you are heading toward burnout. Listen in to explore pastor health so you can remain fulfilled and effective in your calling.
This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.
Contact info:
Email me at crabbypastor@gmail.com with your input and ideas for burnout and leadership topics of interest or if you know someone who might be interesting to interview.
Visit my website:
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CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT SYMPTOMS TEST.
I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.
And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.
Blessings on your journey!
Margie
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Find regular support on my Facebook group: Building Sustainability in Ministry Leaders: Beating Burnout.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Margie (00:01):
Hey there, it's Margie Bryce, your host of the CKrabby
Pastor podcast, where we talkabout all things sustainability,
whether it's sustainability inministry, in your personal life
and we acknowledge that thechurch is in a transitional time
, so we hit topics there toothat are going to stretch your
(00:22):
mind and the way you lead,especially how you lead yourself
, so that you don't become theKrabby Pastor.
Hey there, this is Margie Bryce.
With the Krabby Pastor podcast.
(00:42):
I'm hosting a back from burnoutepisode.
I know these are quite popular.
Number one, so we can see thatit is possible to come back and
we want you to come backbecause we don't really want to
see anybody having to departministry early and depart their
(01:03):
call early or earlier maybe thanwas intended.
In some cases, people take adifferent tack with their
ministry, goes in a differentdirection.
Sometimes they come back topastoral work.
It just depends, and I do seeGod working in all of that, but
burnout is in all of that, butburnout is.
(01:29):
I don't think that's a paththat anybody would necessarily
select.
Now I think I'll do burnout, no.
So I am here today with RobGashler and I met Rob at a
meeting of the let me see if Ican get this right.
Society of Professors inChristian Ministry.
We had a conference not thatlong ago and I met him there and
he volunteered.
I'm always excited when peoplewill volunteer to do these Back
(01:52):
from Burnouts and so far it'sbeen all male.
So ladies just saying that havebeen willing to come and share
in the hopes of eitherencouraging or instructing us
and helping us navigate ministrywell.
So, rob, could you introduceyourself to our audience?
Rob (02:15):
Sure, thank you for having me on.
I appreciate the opportunity totell my story, and my name is
Rob and I am the discipleshippastor at Second Baptist Church
in Baytown, texas, and I've onlybeen here for six months and
moved here after living most ofmy life in Arizona.
Margie (02:35):
Okay, Arizona.
And then you moved to whereagain?
Rob (02:39):
Baytown, Texas.
It's east of Houston.
It's a refinery community.
Margie (02:44):
Oh, okay, all right, it's still hot climate, not hot.
You went from one hot climate,so tell us, is it better if it's
not a dry heat?
Rob (02:56):
You know, the humidity is everything they say.
So I grew up in the dry heat.
I would take the dry heat overthis humidity any day.
Yeah, yes, yes, and I've alwaysup in the dry heat.
I would take the dry heat overthis humidity any day.
Margie (03:05):
Yeah, yes, yes, and I've always lived in the humid
climate.
So tell me then what kind ofministry role you were serving
in when you started to meandertowards burnout.
Rob (03:23):
I think it may have really started.
I started doing collegeministry.
I did college ministry foralmost a decade and I was in a
church setting that had a lot ofprogramming, a lot of schedule,
you know, multiple services onthe weekend, and I began to feel
it there a little bit.
But I had not yet learned howto protect myself or really be
(03:48):
disciplined in my spiritualhabits to practice Sabbath rest
or spend real quality time withGod.
And I went from that intochurch planting and so that's a
whole nother animal of a one-manshow, building a vision,
recruiting a team of a one-manshow, building a vision,
(04:09):
recruiting a team, raisingfinancial support and trying to
make a church go and developingthe vision and strategy.
All the systems plus preachevery Sunday, and always trying
to engage the community.
And I'm just the type of personI'm certainly an anxious
Christian and I deal withanxiety and there's always that
pressure of man have I doneenough today?
Have I engaged enough people?
Have I met enough new contacts?
Are we doing the right things?
(04:31):
Are we going the rightdirection?
So my brain would never turnoff as a church planter.
And so it was just one thingafter another trying to drive
this thing along, and so that'sreally where I ended up clearly
realizing I was burned out, butI also didn't realize to what
extent burnout runs or to whatextent we have to take measures
(04:55):
to recover from it, until Ibegan to research it.
Margie (04:59):
Yeah, and you said something that kind of caught my
attention that you were ananxious Christian.
I mean, is there such a thing?
Rob (05:08):
Yeah, well, you know, there's a book called the
Anxious Christian by a marriageand family therapist, rhett
Smith, and I went to collegewith him and it's a good book.
He recounts his own personalstory throughout the book and I
realized, man, that's what Ideal with and just, I'm a
(05:28):
shepherd.
And then when I shepherd peopleI worry about their well-being
and I worry about how we'redoing things.
And in college ministry toowell, and church planting, I
always say I don't care howpious we pretend to be, you
cannot escape the comparisontrap in ministry as a church
(05:49):
planter, a college minister,because there's always someone
doing it better and that's justhard.
Margie (05:57):
Yeah, it is.
It is, and I'm glad youidentified some of the
complexities of church planting.
I mean, you do have a teamusually have some kind of launch
team but at the same time thereare such a myriad of tasks that
are required of you, and allthe while you are also
(06:19):
shepherding and doing theregular Sunday worship work as
well, so it's a lot.
Rob (06:27):
Yeah.
Margie (06:28):
Absolutely so when did you start thinking that there
might be a problem?
Rob (06:36):
I began to be increasingly concerned, I would say early in
2019.
And I began to search for someother ministry opportunities.
Margie (06:47):
The exit ramp.
Rob (06:49):
Yes, the exit ramp out of church planting.
But I also had this strong I'ma high level of responsibility
kind of person If I commit to dosomething, I'm going to see it
through.
If I commit to a group ofpeople, I'm going to be
committed to them, and my churchplant had a dynamic little
church family, and so I couldn'ton one side I couldn't imagine
(07:11):
leaving them, but on the otherside I felt like I needed to get
out.
So I began exploring otheropportunities but kept pressing
on.
In 2019, in the summer, we wentto the Purpose Driven Church
Conference.
I took three of my leaders.
They got very excited for thefuture, of what we could do.
I got excited that I had someother people excited.
But then we moved into 2020 and, of course, then COVID hit.
(07:36):
We were in the middle of acampaign as a church to engage
our community and then that allgot shut down.
And so I just remember when wewent home and we were forced to
stay home for two weeks.
Two weeks yeah, which thenturned into yeah, two more weeks
.
In Arizona, we were shut downfor a month, but after that we
(07:57):
were given some liberty to openback up.
But I remember watching my otherpastor friends scramble to get
online and, you know, do thingsonline and move digitally and
I'm just sitting there thinkingI didn't care so much to do that
, didn't have the energy to dothat and had some good downtime
(08:17):
to rest, to reflect, to spendtime with God.
And our community was so smallwe still were connecting at each
other's home a little bit.
For those first two weeks wewere just on Zoom.
But then I started to do aservice not a service, but just
a video, a live feed, just asermon for four weeks.
(08:38):
And so I just knew then forsure that there was a burnout
issue.
So I actually invited our smallcongregation into the
conversation about thepossibility that I needed to
move on and they wanted tosupport me in that, and so
that's where that began.
Margie (08:58):
So then, what were the indicators that you, besides
looking for the exit ramp, youknow, I've heard of pastors
Googling.
You know, what else can I dowith an MDiv, you know?
And so that's when you're kindof, and that is an indicator,
when you start thinking a lotand it starts to grow about what
(09:19):
else could I be doing here?
Maybe I'd rather go work in thecafeteria in the high school or
be a greeter at Walmart orsomething.
Rob (09:28):
That's the thing.
When I realized I wasn'tconcerned about scrambling to
get online or check on ourpeople, I just felt like I was
drained.
I didn't have anything left togive.
There was definitely in theMaslach burnout inventory.
Now that I know what it is,understanding the
depersonalization concept of howI just detached.
(09:51):
I was emotionally exhausted, Idetached from the work and so I
did begin to think what elsecould I do out there?
But I didn't jump out ofministry altogether at that
point.
I moved back into collegeministry.
It allowed me to focus again ina very specific area of
ministry on a university campusand back at the University of
(10:16):
Arizona.
So I was there for the COVIDyear that they weren't meeting
on campus, and then the yearthey opened back up on campus.
But even still, I just didn'thave the drive that I used to
have for ministry.
And so from there I began toreally explore exiting the
ministry and I actually did fortwo years as far as paid
(10:39):
ministry and started to go intoparks and recreation staff and I
had been a realtor all my adultlife, so I was doing that on
the side as well.
Margie (10:49):
Okay, so you had a semi-exit ramp kind of
experience.
So then you started to trolland learn more about burnout.
What kind of help and remedydid you seek out?
Rob (11:05):
Yeah, I ended up writing a research paper for a PhD seminar
on ministry burnout, and atthat point I realized, for one,
there had been plenty ofresearch already on pastors and
ministry burnout.
And at that point I realized,for one, there had been plenty
of research already on pastorsand ministry burnout.
And then discovered some qualityresources to learn how to
cultivate the common theme ofthe research that's out there
(11:27):
has been, that the spiritualhealth and spiritual vitality of
the minister is key topreventing ministry burnout, and
so discovering some tools andresources to guard and cultivate
Sabbath rest, and then also tocultivate your own spiritual
walk, with time in the word,time in prayer and then a
(11:47):
balanced schedule.
And then from there, as I beganto actually jump into my actual
dissertation research, whichended up being on the same topic
, a newer book came out calledthe burnout challenge and
looking at the relationship ofpeople with their work and
identifying that the workplaceand the organization structure
(12:08):
is at play also and as much atfault.
It's not just the individual,so just the individual.
We've often treated them as thedysfunctional person who needs
to get it back together and getback in the workforce, whereas
the organization itself can playa lot into someone.
It could be what ChristineMaslach calls a burnout factory,
(12:29):
so it just produces burned outworkers.
Margie (12:32):
Mm-hmm yeah, unhealthy environment.
A lot of our ministries do thatburnout factory, so it just
produces burned out workers.
Rob (12:34):
Yeah, unhealthy environment .
A lot of our ministries do that.
Margie (12:36):
Sure, sure and certainly we expect that our ministry
leaders are connected to Christspiritually.
We expect that peace.
And then you mentioned thebalanced work life.
I mean, I think some of thatalso dovetails in with the piece
that I like to attend to, andthat is that just because you're
(12:59):
spiritual doesn't mean that youdon't need to attend to the
physical and the mental and theemotional.
What kind of help did you findon those topics?
Rob (13:18):
of help did you find on those topics?
I think well, one.
I think one key one that standsout to me was as I began to
research one of my colleagues inthe PhD program I was in highly
recommended Pastor WayneCordero's book Leading on Empty,
and when I read that it was sohelpful to understand the depth
of burnout and the time that ittakes to heal and I just felt
(13:38):
like as I read it, it gave me aroadmap to rediscover my more
intimate walk with Christ, butalso to allow me to be patient,
to take the time to recover aswell, to take the time to
recover as well.
Margie (13:51):
Yes, because I like to use, you know, do a hat tip to
the area where I'm from, whichis Detroit, and say you know you
wouldn't treat your car the waythat you treat yourself, your
body.
This is the vehicle God hasgiven to you to function on the
planet and a piece of that isliving into your call.
(14:14):
But if you had a car and younever, ever changed the oil, you
never ever washed it, you neverever did any kind of
maintenance.
And then, especially mypersonal favorite, is when the
car starts making really badnoises, you turn the radio up,
and I think that's some of whatministry leaders sort of do, is
(14:39):
don't attend to some issues asthey arise.
Is that fair?
Rob (14:46):
Yeah, certainly, and I think we just keep pressing on
and we think, well, I just needa day off.
I think that's one of thebiggest misconceptions as well
If I just take some time off, ifI just take a few days off, but
then to realize, even even tolook at the concept of
sabbatical, to take time offafter experiencing burnout, you
(15:06):
you've got to have several daysjust to unwind and disconnect
from the workload and all theconcerns and anxiety of the
ministry before you can start tofeel like you can rest.
And so I even questioned thesetting I'm in now has a very
good balance, work-life balance.
They really promote it, but thesabbatical they'll offer is a
(15:31):
one-month sabbatical, and I hadquestioned that because, again,
you need a week just to getdisconnected from the work
before you can learn to actuallyrest, and so that needs to be a
longer process.
Margie (15:46):
So what were some of the steps that you took?
To mitigate, not mitigate,that's not even the right, but
just to work yourself out ofburnout.
Rob (15:58):
Through it I would say I was doing Bible reading and
prayer, but it wasn't focused orwasn't quality.
I hadn't learned to quiet mymind, to just sit in the
presence of God.
So while I was back in Tucsondoing college ministry, I began
to put some of that back inplace just some good quality
(16:18):
quiet time, basically, and thenmoving on from there.
Then, when I moved into workingin the secular world, so to
speak, with Parks and Rec, I hadto learn how to do that now,
not as a pastor who could do itas part of my daily work, but to
actually spend time with God asa lay person, so to speak, for
a couple of years, and so justredevelop the quality to my
(16:42):
quiet time of being able to justsit in his presence, read the
word, pray, and then eventhere's an element in ministry
of, I'd say, just tellingyourself the truth.
So telling yourself, okay, I'moff today, I do not need to
worry about the ministryobligations, I don't need to
check my email and again, in thesetting I'm in now, there's no
(17:05):
expectation to check anythingwork-related on a day off, and
they're very good about staffguarding other staffs If they
take a personal day or vacationday that they don't contact.
They don't try to contact theperson who's off.
We try to resolve it withoutthem.
So I think that's reallyhelpful on the organization side
(17:26):
.
But for me personally, it wasthe learning to cultivate a
better time with God and tellingmyself, when it was okay, to
not worry about work, disconnect, take the day off and actually
rest.
Margie (17:38):
Yeah, because I think scripture is pretty clear about
do not worry, especially fortomorrow.
Today has its own troubles anddon't be anxious for anything.
Anxious for anything and Ithink that there's a lot of
(17:58):
North American productivitymindset that kind of filters in
on, especially like churchplanting, something like that,
where you've got to make ithappen instead of following God
and allow God to let it happen.
God and allow God to let ithappen.
And I think that's a differentmindset and one of the ways
(18:22):
anyway that ministry leaders canget trapped.
Rob (18:23):
Yeah, and I think too.
We have to be honest withourselves.
My ego could have said well,now that I've been the senior
pastor of a church plant, I mustseek out a senior pastorship.
But I knew from my experienceand knowing who I am, I thrived
in support roles.
And so I made a commitment tomove back to a support role, and
that's why first I went backinto college ministry as an
(18:45):
associate pastor and campusminister and then, even now, to
come here and be thediscipleship pastor.
I have no interest in climbingthe ladder or becoming the
senior pastor.
My desire is to serve in asupport role and be a great
support role for the rest of mycareer.
Margie (19:04):
And there's something to be said about number one the
self-awareness that you haveraised here, but also when you
said that you have raised here,but also when you said I'm not
climbing the ladder andfrequently that's climbing the
ladder over other people to getthere, which is what Paul in
Philippians 2 says.
(19:24):
I don't want you climbing overother people to get where you
need to go.
That kind of competition isactually the polar opposite of
humility.
Rob (19:35):
Right.
Margie (19:37):
Which is you know a whole.
That's a whole nother like Ithink.
You raised earlier the issue ofcompetition among ministry
leaders, even though that's notsomething we talk about.
Rob (19:49):
Yeah.
Margie (19:50):
A lot?
All right, Not at all, butanyway.
I remember sitting in a groupof pastors and they said this is
probably a well-known factamong ministry colleagues that
we get together and kind ofcrank about things.
Has that been your experience.
Rob (20:09):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Margie (20:11):
Yeah, we don't like to admit that.
I was second career in theministry so this was a real
eye-opener for me.
But I'll never forget the onetime they said let's go around
the room and everybody saysomething positive, so we're not
just sitting here complaining.
So we got halfway around theroom and this one ministry
colleague says well, we justcompleted our $1 million
(20:33):
addition.
And I was thinking, dude youdidn't have to say the number.
Most of the pastors sitting heredon't even have facilities that
had that kind of price tag onit, so it's there.
Sometimes it's unintentional orthe person isn't tapped into.
(20:53):
Maybe I ought not to say thatnumber and the competition's
there.
Rob (20:59):
Right.
It's almost like it getsingrained in us over time
because those pastor fellowshipsconversations go that direction
all the time.
Margie (21:10):
Yeah, I don't know if that's an unknown fact for our
listeners or not, but anyway,moving on here.
So you found, at some point,then, a better environment in
which to work, an environmentthat valued, and this is what I
so appreciate from themillennials and youngers.
They seem to have a betterconcept or desire toward the
(21:35):
work-life balance.
Maybe they watched theirparents go great guns and said,
well, I'm not doing that, butyou found an environment that is
very supportive of that.
How does your life and yourpace in ministry look different
now compared to earlier years,when you were headed on the
burnout path?
Rob (21:57):
I know I used to feel guilty if I wasn't.
You know, I always felt like,am I doing enough?
Did I get enough done?
And would never turn off thework mindset on my day off,
whereas now I certainly feeltotally comfortable, I have a
clear conscience to take my dayoff or days off and not be
troubled by the work obligationsof ministry.
(22:20):
So that's a big part of it.
Yesterday I took a day off andmy supervisor had to contact me
with a question, and it was veryapologetic for even contacting
me, but it was.
We had to answer the question.
It was important.
So, but that's the key thing isbeing having a clear conscious
(22:41):
to turn off the work mindset ondays off to rest and just enjoy,
just enjoy being me.
And there were years too inministry and I know many
struggle with this where youridentity gets so wrapped up in
who you are in ministry that youlose sight of being you.
And so I remember one timefriends had said you know you
(23:03):
were, you kind of got lost inbeing Rob the student minister.
We're, we're glad to have justRob back and so so getting in
touch with yourself to be orjust to enjoy being you, the
person that God made you andcalled you to be and enjoying
his presence.
Margie (23:21):
Why do you think ministry leaders do that
Sacrifice themselves in that way?
Rob (23:28):
Yeah, you know that's a good question and I'm not sure
I'm to the heart of the issue.
I do think I don't know.
I mean, we're all fallen humanbeings, so we all have
insecurities to some degree.
But I wonder if it's the kindof people that are called to
ministry are also wired acertain way that we give our all
(23:51):
to our work and then we getenmeshed emotionally in it and
can't detach from it, yeah, yeah, and then going along with that
.
Margie (24:03):
Then is the feeling guilty, and I remember feeling
that way when I would go to thegym.
I felt like, oh no, I should beattending to my massive to-do
list.
I'm slacking here, when inreality, what I was doing was a
good thing for me and for myhealth, so that I could keep
(24:27):
going.
Rob (24:28):
Yeah, that's true, and you mentioned going to the gym.
That I used to.
Not, I used to try to run, butthen I, when I did join a gym,
that was totally new to me, butnow that's a key part of my
personal well-being is I reallyguard my workout time and I
don't.
I don't answer, I don't try totake calls or texts at the time
(24:49):
that I'm working out, andbecause that's just truly my
time to take calls or texts atthe time that I'm working out,
and because that's just truly mytime to take care of myself,
decompress, and so that's animportant element as well.
Margie (24:59):
Yeah, absolutely.
Any other newer well-beingchoices you've made.
Rob (25:08):
Nothing beyond that.
The quality quiet time, thedisconnecting on my day off with
a clear conscience, and thephysical fitness, I think have
been all key elements.
Well, I guess I would say too, Iwas always the type to I want
to do more and I want to do itfast.
I want to see everything getaccomplished and I want to see
us move into every ministryopportunity that we can.
(25:31):
But I'm realizing now that Ican't do everything, and as I
get older I slow down a littlebit, and so even in the setting
I'm in now, I still have a heartto see young adults reached in
our community, and so I didstart a young adult small group,
and that's somewhat beyond my.
It's not in my job description,so to speak, but it's on my
(25:55):
heart.
But I don't want to get stuckto where we grow, something like
where it needs a weekly largegroup meeting and I have to plan
a talk every week and that kindof stuff.
It would be how do we get theyoung adults to create a
movement where I'm not the youngadults pastor, so to speak,
because I have a full plate asthe adult discipleship pastor,
(26:17):
so I'm more guarded now to sayyou know what?
That's not, I can't take thaton.
I can't take any more on, andit's okay if I say no.
Margie (26:26):
That's.
I mean that's huge.
Okay To say no.
Rob (26:30):
Yeah.
Margie (26:30):
I mean, I think, when it comes to ministry, many pastors
feel like saying no is justlike saying no to God, even
though it might be somethingthat is more than what they
really can take and more thantoo much to have on one person's
(26:52):
plate.
Yeah right and more than toomuch to have on one person's
plate.
Yeah right, how did you dealthen with the expectations of
people?
I mean, it sounded like yourchurch planter group got it.
They understood Mm-hmm, but didyou ever have to deal with
other people's expectations ofyou, either then, when you were
(27:13):
in the throes of burnout, or now?
Rob (27:17):
I'd say maybe in the church planning circle I was in and
the network that we were in,there were competing views.
Fortunately, the pastor of mysponsoring church and I and our
specific our direct report, soto speak, in our association of
churches, we were on the samepage, but the leadership that
(27:39):
came from our state denominationwere not on the same page as us
, and so there was a little bitof tension there, and so that
was hard to a little bit hard tonavigate, and so that was, that
was hard to a little bit hardto navigate.
So then you felt like, well,I'm not performing to
expectations on one side, but Ithink I am on the other side.
And then, and then of course intime, we had people leave.
(28:01):
You know, they wanted to seecertain things take place in our
little ministry, but it wasn'thappening, and so they went
somewhere where it was.
So then you feel frustrated anddefeated, thinking, well, why
wouldn't?
I thought you were committed tohelp us grow this here, why
don't you help make it happenhere?
But instead they just checkedout to go somewhere else and so
(28:21):
had to let them go.
But you get discouraged.
So there's that discouragementas well.
Margie (28:29):
Yeah, yeah.
The fish are always jumpingfrom tank to tank.
Rob (28:33):
Yeah, yeah, so I think it's kind of a whole whole.
Nother conversation for anotherarena, but church planting.
I think that when churchplanters burn out or struggle
and the thing doesn't go,there's a lot of grief in in
that, like you, you went down adead end or you failed in
(28:54):
ministry.
So, even though everyonethought what we did was for that
season and God was in it, itwas fruitful, it was great, we
ended on a positive note.
But me, as the senior leader,can't help but feel like I
failed.
And so there's no at least inthe circle I was in, there was
no after debrief or triagesupport for a church planter in
(29:19):
that case, and I wonder ifanyone's dealing with that
anywhere.
Margie (29:24):
Yeah, that's a good point.
That was, I think, somewhat thebeginning for me of a
compassion for ministry leaders,when I saw church planters and
at the time parachute drops werethe thing.
This is a number of years ago,even though we know today that
their chance of survival ispretty small compared to some
(29:49):
other models.
But yeah, I saw church plantersfail and it was almost like
they, you know, they threw themout in the water from from the
pier and said, hey, can you swim?
After they threw them out andthen, when they couldn't swim,
you know it was like who'scalling them out and helping
(30:12):
them walk through the failure,the sense of failure that they
feel.
And of course, you know Goddoesn't waste anything.
And you learn.
You say what did we learn fromthat?
Okay, it didn't work out how weexpected.
What can we learn?
And but I saw, I felt like theywere too easily discarded and
(30:33):
then they move on to the nextthing and then, when one takes,
there's a whole lot of backslapping.
That goes on.
Hey, hey, hey.
This is amazing so then there'sthat comparison trap again I
know, I know, you know, and Iguess that's a rather crass
renditioning of what hashappened, but I'm just, you know
, I'm saying what I perceivedand how I felt, just a great
(30:56):
sense of sadness on their behalf.
So hopefully somebody has takenthat mantle up.
So if you were to talk to youryounger self prior to burnout,
what are the top couple ofthings that you would say, not
only to yourself, but then alsoas a way of offering that to our
(31:18):
friends who are listening?
Rob (31:20):
Yeah, I think I would certainly say slow down and
cultivate a quality quiet timewith God.
And then the other thing andI've reflected on this before is
I was, as a young adult, I wasbusy too.
I was growing this boomingcollege ministry and as a young
professional, I often wouldforfeit time to hang out with
(31:40):
our young professionals groupthat I was a part of, and I look
back now and I regret not.
You know, of course, withsocial media we stay somewhat
connected, but I realized Imissed out on developing some
key relationships and beingpresent with some people that
were really meaningful in mylife, and so I think the other
part is being present withpeople.
Margie (32:00):
Yes, yes, do not do this journey alone.
For any of us, whether you're alay person, whether you're a
ministry leader, whether it'sfriends, accountability group, a
coach, a mentor, something justdon't be doing this alone.
It's just.
I think we're meant toacknowledge the gifts that other
(32:25):
people are to us in our lives,are to us in our lives.
Well, thank you so much forwhat you brought here today to
the conversation about burnout,and I would like to ask you from
(32:51):
.
Rob (32:51):
Yeah, certainly I like to protect my time or what I want
to do.
So, even though I always pointout all of Jesus's ministry was
out of an interruption and weneed to allow interruptions and
margin in our lives for ministry, I certainly still get crabby
when I feel like people haveimposed on my time and corrupted
(33:15):
me.
Margie (33:17):
Oh well, thank you.
Thank you for offering that,and I'd like to ask that
question because it's just kindof a I don't know reality check
that ministry leaders get crabbytoo.
You know because we are people,right, right.
Well, thank you so much forbeing on the Crabby Pastor
(33:38):
podcast and sharing your burnoutstory in the spirit of may it
be helpful for someone else andmay God redeem this too.
Rob (33:47):
Thank you.
Margie (33:52):
So how do the pieces of your life fit together?
Do they fit together well andthings are humming along just
fine, or are there some piecesthat are tight or absent or just
not fitting the bill?
This is your invitation to joinme in my glass workshop for a
(34:14):
video series, where I am goingto do a stained glass project
while I talk to you aboutsustainability and building
sustainability into your heartand into your life.
So I am going to be doing myart, which is a form of
self-care, and I'm going toinvite you into that space with
(34:36):
me and I'm going to chat.
I'm going to chat aboutself-care and I'm going to show
you how I create, and there's anifty, nifty analogy.
Stained glass seems to be avery good metaphor for what I
want to talk about, so I'd lovefor you to join me.
To do that, to opt in, I'llneed you to email me at
(34:59):
crabbypastor at gmailcom.
That's crabbypastor at gmailcom.
So you won't want to miss this.
You definitely won't want tomiss this.
So make a plan to join me inthe glass workshop.
Are you wondering whether yourfatigue, your lack of motivation
(35:25):
, your lack of interest isburnout?
Maybe?
I just wanted to let you knowthat I have a resource on the
website, margiebryce dot comthat's B-R-Y-C-E MargieBryce dot
com, and it is a burnoutquestionnaire, free for you to
(35:52):
download, and kind ofself-assess and get a sense of
where you're at.
There are questions that notonly ask about what you're going
through but maybe how oftenyou're experiencing it and
that's kind of a key to whereyou might be, because you have
to know where you are in orderto chart a course forward.
(36:12):
And most pastors who experiencepastors and ministry leaders
who experience burnout rarelyknow that that's where they're
at until they're well into it.
And if you're unsure about thatlittle statistic, so far,
everybody that I've interviewedon this podcast who has
(36:36):
experienced burnout, when I askthat kind of question, they're
like, yeah, I didn't know that'swhere I was at.
So again, go to margiebricecom.
It's on the homepage of thewebsite and you can get your
burnout questionnaire and kindof see where you're at.
(36:57):
Hey friends, the Crabby Pastorpodcast is sponsored by Bryce
Art Glass and you can find thaton Facebook I make stained glass
as part of my self-care andalso by Bryce Coaching, where I
coach ministry leaders andbusiness leaders, and so the
(37:17):
funds that I generate fromcoaching and from making stained
glass is what is supportingthis podcast and I will have
opportunities for you to be apart of sponsoring me and, as
always, you can buy me a cup ofcoffee thing in the show notes
(37:40):
but I will have some other waysthat you can be a part of
getting the word out about theimportance of healthy self-care
for ministry leaders.
Hey, thanks for listening.
It is my deep desire andpassion to champion issues of
(38:02):
sustainability in ministry andfor your life, so I'm here to
help.
I stepped back from pastoralministry and I feel called to
help.
I stepped back from pastoralministry and I feel called to
help ministry leaders create andcultivate sustainability in
their lives so that they can gothe distance with God and
(38:24):
whatever plans that God has foryou.
I would love to help, I wouldconsider it an honor and, in all
things, make sure you connectto these sustainability
practices you know, so that youdon't become the Crabby Pastor.
Thank you.
Hey there, it's Margie Bryce, your host of the CKrabby
Pastor podcast, where we talkabout all things sustainability,
whether it's sustainability inministry, in your personal life
and we acknowledge that thechurch is in a transitional time
, so we hit topics there toothat are going to stretch your
(00:22):
mind and the way you lead,especially how you lead yourself
, so that you don't become theKrabby Pastor.
Hey there, this is Margie Bryce.
With the Krabby Pastor podcast.
(00:42):
I'm hosting a back from burnoutepisode.
I know these are quite popular.
Number one, so we can see thatit is possible to come back and
we want you to come backbecause we don't really want to
see anybody having to departministry early and depart their
(01:03):
call early or earlier maybe thanwas intended.
In some cases, people take adifferent tack with their
ministry, goes in a differentdirection.
Sometimes they come back topastoral work.
It just depends, and I do seeGod working in all of that, but
burnout is in all of that, butburnout is.
(01:29):
I don't think that's a paththat anybody would necessarily
select.
Now I think I'll do burnout, no.
So I am here today with RobGashler and I met Rob at a
meeting of the let me see if Ican get this right.
Society of Professors inChristian Ministry.
We had a conference not thatlong ago and I met him there and
he volunteered.
I'm always excited when peoplewill volunteer to do these Back
(01:52):
from Burnouts and so far it'sbeen all male.
So ladies just saying that havebeen willing to come and share
in the hopes of eitherencouraging or instructing us
and helping us navigate ministrywell.
So, rob, could you introduceyourself to our audience?
Rob (02:15):
Sure, thank you for having me on.
I appreciate the opportunity totell my story, and my name is
Rob and I am the discipleshippastor at Second Baptist Church
in Baytown, texas, and I've onlybeen here for six months and
moved here after living most ofmy life in Arizona.
Margie (02:35):
Okay, Arizona.
And then you moved to whereagain?
Rob (02:39):
Baytown, Texas.
It's east of Houston.
It's a refinery community.
Margie (02:44):
Oh, okay, all right, it's still hot climate, not hot.
You went from one hot climate,so tell us, is it better if it's
not a dry heat?
Rob (02:56):
You know, the humidity is everything they say.
So I grew up in the dry heat.
I would take the dry heat overthis humidity any day.
Yeah, yes, yes, and I've alwaysup in the dry heat.
I would take the dry heat overthis humidity any day.
Margie (03:05):
Yeah, yes, yes, and I've always lived in the humid
climate.
So tell me then what kind ofministry role you were serving
in when you started to meandertowards burnout.
Rob (03:23):
I think it may have really started.
I started doing collegeministry.
I did college ministry foralmost a decade and I was in a
church setting that had a lot ofprogramming, a lot of schedule,
you know, multiple services onthe weekend, and I began to feel
it there a little bit.
But I had not yet learned howto protect myself or really be
(03:48):
disciplined in my spiritualhabits to practice Sabbath rest
or spend real quality time withGod.
And I went from that intochurch planting and so that's a
whole nother animal of a one-manshow, building a vision,
recruiting a team of a one-manshow, building a vision,
(04:09):
recruiting a team, raisingfinancial support and trying to
make a church go and developingthe vision and strategy.
All the systems plus preachevery Sunday, and always trying
to engage the community.
And I'm just the type of personI'm certainly an anxious
Christian and I deal withanxiety and there's always that
pressure of man have I doneenough today?
Have I engaged enough people?
Have I met enough new contacts?
Are we doing the right things?
(04:31):
Are we going the rightdirection?
So my brain would never turnoff as a church planter.
And so it was just one thingafter another trying to drive
this thing along, and so that'sreally where I ended up clearly
realizing I was burned out, butI also didn't realize to what
extent burnout runs or to whatextent we have to take measures
(04:55):
to recover from it, until Ibegan to research it.
Margie (04:59):
Yeah, and you said something that kind of caught my
attention that you were ananxious Christian.
I mean, is there such a thing?
Rob (05:08):
Yeah, well, you know, there's a book called the
Anxious Christian by a marriageand family therapist, rhett
Smith, and I went to collegewith him and it's a good book.
He recounts his own personalstory throughout the book and I
realized, man, that's what Ideal with and just, I'm a
(05:28):
shepherd.
And then when I shepherd peopleI worry about their well-being
and I worry about how we'redoing things.
And in college ministry toowell, and church planting, I
always say I don't care howpious we pretend to be, you
cannot escape the comparisontrap in ministry as a church
(05:49):
planter, a college minister,because there's always someone
doing it better and that's justhard.
Margie (05:57):
Yeah, it is.
It is, and I'm glad youidentified some of the
complexities of church planting.
I mean, you do have a teamusually have some kind of launch
team but at the same time thereare such a myriad of tasks that
are required of you, and allthe while you are also
(06:19):
shepherding and doing theregular Sunday worship work as
well, so it's a lot.
Rob (06:27):
Yeah.
Margie (06:28):
Absolutely so when did you start thinking that there
might be a problem?
Rob (06:36):
I began to be increasingly concerned, I would say early in
2019.
And I began to search for someother ministry opportunities.
Margie (06:47):
The exit ramp.
Rob (06:49):
Yes, the exit ramp out of church planting.
But I also had this strong I'ma high level of responsibility
kind of person If I commit to dosomething, I'm going to see it
through.
If I commit to a group ofpeople, I'm going to be
committed to them, and my churchplant had a dynamic little
church family, and so I couldn'ton one side I couldn't imagine
(07:11):
leaving them, but on the otherside I felt like I needed to get
out.
So I began exploring otheropportunities but kept pressing
on.
In 2019, in the summer, we wentto the Purpose Driven Church
Conference.
I took three of my leaders.
They got very excited for thefuture, of what we could do.
I got excited that I had someother people excited.
But then we moved into 2020 and, of course, then COVID hit.
(07:36):
We were in the middle of acampaign as a church to engage
our community and then that allgot shut down.
And so I just remember when wewent home and we were forced to
stay home for two weeks.
Two weeks yeah, which thenturned into yeah, two more weeks
.
In Arizona, we were shut downfor a month, but after that we
(07:57):
were given some liberty to openback up.
But I remember watching my otherpastor friends scramble to get
online and, you know, do thingsonline and move digitally and
I'm just sitting there thinkingI didn't care so much to do that
, didn't have the energy to dothat and had some good downtime
(08:17):
to rest, to reflect, to spendtime with God.
And our community was so smallwe still were connecting at each
other's home a little bit.
For those first two weeks wewere just on Zoom.
But then I started to do aservice not a service, but just
a video, a live feed, just asermon for four weeks.
(08:38):
And so I just knew then forsure that there was a burnout
issue.
So I actually invited our smallcongregation into the
conversation about thepossibility that I needed to
move on and they wanted tosupport me in that, and so
that's where that began.
Margie (08:58):
So then, what were the indicators that you, besides
looking for the exit ramp, youknow, I've heard of pastors
Googling.
You know, what else can I dowith an MDiv, you know?
And so that's when you're kindof, and that is an indicator,
when you start thinking a lotand it starts to grow about what
(09:19):
else could I be doing here?
Maybe I'd rather go work in thecafeteria in the high school or
be a greeter at Walmart orsomething.
Rob (09:28):
That's the thing.
When I realized I wasn'tconcerned about scrambling to
get online or check on ourpeople, I just felt like I was
drained.
I didn't have anything left togive.
There was definitely in theMaslach burnout inventory.
Now that I know what it is,understanding the
depersonalization concept of howI just detached.
(09:51):
I was emotionally exhausted, Idetached from the work and so I
did begin to think what elsecould I do out there?
But I didn't jump out ofministry altogether at that
point.
I moved back into collegeministry.
It allowed me to focus again ina very specific area of
ministry on a university campusand back at the University of
(10:16):
Arizona.
So I was there for the COVIDyear that they weren't meeting
on campus, and then the yearthey opened back up on campus.
But even still, I just didn'thave the drive that I used to
have for ministry.
And so from there I began toreally explore exiting the
ministry and I actually did fortwo years as far as paid
(10:39):
ministry and started to go intoparks and recreation staff and I
had been a realtor all my adultlife, so I was doing that on
the side as well.
Margie (10:49):
Okay, so you had a semi-exit ramp kind of
experience.
So then you started to trolland learn more about burnout.
What kind of help and remedydid you seek out?
Rob (11:05):
Yeah, I ended up writing a research paper for a PhD seminar
on ministry burnout, and atthat point I realized, for one,
there had been plenty ofresearch already on pastors and
ministry burnout.
And at that point I realized,for one, there had been plenty
of research already on pastorsand ministry burnout.
And then discovered some qualityresources to learn how to
cultivate the common theme ofthe research that's out there
(11:27):
has been, that the spiritualhealth and spiritual vitality of
the minister is key topreventing ministry burnout, and
so discovering some tools andresources to guard and cultivate
Sabbath rest, and then also tocultivate your own spiritual
walk, with time in the word,time in prayer and then a
(11:47):
balanced schedule.
And then from there, as I beganto actually jump into my actual
dissertation research, whichended up being on the same topic
, a newer book came out calledthe burnout challenge and
looking at the relationship ofpeople with their work and
identifying that the workplaceand the organization structure
(12:08):
is at play also and as much atfault.
It's not just the individual,so just the individual.
We've often treated them as thedysfunctional person who needs
to get it back together and getback in the workforce, whereas
the organization itself can playa lot into someone.
It could be what ChristineMaslach calls a burnout factory,
(12:29):
so it just produces burned outworkers.
Margie (12:32):
Mm-hmm yeah, unhealthy environment.
A lot of our ministries do thatburnout factory, so it just
produces burned out workers.
Rob (12:34):
Yeah, unhealthy environment .
A lot of our ministries do that.
Margie (12:36):
Sure, sure and certainly we expect that our ministry
leaders are connected to Christspiritually.
We expect that peace.
And then you mentioned thebalanced work life.
I mean, I think some of thatalso dovetails in with the piece
that I like to attend to, andthat is that just because you're
(12:59):
spiritual doesn't mean that youdon't need to attend to the
physical and the mental and theemotional.
What kind of help did you findon those topics?
Rob (13:18):
of help did you find on those topics?
I think well, one.
I think one key one that standsout to me was as I began to
research one of my colleagues inthe PhD program I was in highly
recommended Pastor WayneCordero's book Leading on Empty,
and when I read that it was sohelpful to understand the depth
of burnout and the time that ittakes to heal and I just felt
(13:38):
like as I read it, it gave me aroadmap to rediscover my more
intimate walk with Christ, butalso to allow me to be patient,
to take the time to recover aswell, to take the time to
recover as well.
Margie (13:51):
Yes, because I like to use, you know, do a hat tip to
the area where I'm from, whichis Detroit, and say you know you
wouldn't treat your car the waythat you treat yourself, your
body.
This is the vehicle God hasgiven to you to function on the
planet and a piece of that isliving into your call.
(14:14):
But if you had a car and younever, ever changed the oil, you
never ever washed it, you neverever did any kind of
maintenance.
And then, especially mypersonal favorite, is when the
car starts making really badnoises, you turn the radio up,
and I think that's some of whatministry leaders sort of do, is
(14:39):
don't attend to some issues asthey arise.
Is that fair?
Rob (14:46):
Yeah, certainly, and I think we just keep pressing on
and we think, well, I just needa day off.
I think that's one of thebiggest misconceptions as well
If I just take some time off, ifI just take a few days off, but
then to realize, even even tolook at the concept of
sabbatical, to take time offafter experiencing burnout, you
(15:06):
you've got to have several daysjust to unwind and disconnect
from the workload and all theconcerns and anxiety of the
ministry before you can start tofeel like you can rest.
And so I even questioned thesetting I'm in now has a very
good balance, work-life balance.
They really promote it, but thesabbatical they'll offer is a
(15:31):
one-month sabbatical, and I hadquestioned that because, again,
you need a week just to getdisconnected from the work
before you can learn to actuallyrest, and so that needs to be a
longer process.
Margie (15:46):
So what were some of the steps that you took?
To mitigate, not mitigate,that's not even the right, but
just to work yourself out ofburnout.
Rob (15:58):
Through it I would say I was doing Bible reading and
prayer, but it wasn't focused orwasn't quality.
I hadn't learned to quiet mymind, to just sit in the
presence of God.
So while I was back in Tucsondoing college ministry, I began
to put some of that back inplace just some good quality
(16:18):
quiet time, basically, and thenmoving on from there.
Then, when I moved into workingin the secular world, so to
speak, with Parks and Rec, I hadto learn how to do that now,
not as a pastor who could do itas part of my daily work, but to
actually spend time with God asa lay person, so to speak, for
a couple of years, and so justredevelop the quality to my
(16:42):
quiet time of being able to justsit in his presence, read the
word, pray, and then eventhere's an element in ministry
of, I'd say, just tellingyourself the truth.
So telling yourself, okay, I'moff today, I do not need to
worry about the ministryobligations, I don't need to
check my email and again, in thesetting I'm in now, there's no
(17:05):
expectation to check anythingwork-related on a day off, and
they're very good about staffguarding other staffs If they
take a personal day or vacationday that they don't contact.
They don't try to contact theperson who's off.
We try to resolve it withoutthem.
So I think that's reallyhelpful on the organization side
(17:26):
.
But for me personally, it wasthe learning to cultivate a
better time with God and tellingmyself, when it was okay, to
not worry about work, disconnect, take the day off and actually
rest.
Margie (17:38):
Yeah, because I think scripture is pretty clear about
do not worry, especially fortomorrow.
Today has its own troubles anddon't be anxious for anything.
Anxious for anything and Ithink that there's a lot of
(17:58):
North American productivitymindset that kind of filters in
on, especially like churchplanting, something like that,
where you've got to make ithappen instead of following God
and allow God to let it happen.
God and allow God to let ithappen.
And I think that's a differentmindset and one of the ways
(18:22):
anyway that ministry leaders canget trapped.
Rob (18:23):
Yeah, and I think too.
We have to be honest withourselves.
My ego could have said well,now that I've been the senior
pastor of a church plant, I mustseek out a senior pastorship.
But I knew from my experienceand knowing who I am, I thrived
in support roles.
And so I made a commitment tomove back to a support role, and
that's why first I went backinto college ministry as an
(18:45):
associate pastor and campusminister and then, even now, to
come here and be thediscipleship pastor.
I have no interest in climbingthe ladder or becoming the
senior pastor.
My desire is to serve in asupport role and be a great
support role for the rest of mycareer.
Margie (19:04):
And there's something to be said about number one the
self-awareness that you haveraised here, but also when you
said that you have raised here,but also when you said I'm not
climbing the ladder andfrequently that's climbing the
ladder over other people to getthere, which is what Paul in
Philippians 2 says.
(19:24):
I don't want you climbing overother people to get where you
need to go.
That kind of competition isactually the polar opposite of
humility.
Rob (19:35):
Right.
Margie (19:37):
Which is you know a whole.
That's a whole nother like Ithink.
You raised earlier the issue ofcompetition among ministry
leaders, even though that's notsomething we talk about.
Rob (19:49):
Yeah.
Margie (19:50):
A lot?
All right, Not at all, butanyway.
I remember sitting in a groupof pastors and they said this is
probably a well-known factamong ministry colleagues that
we get together and kind ofcrank about things.
Has that been your experience.
Rob (20:09):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Margie (20:11):
Yeah, we don't like to admit that.
I was second career in theministry so this was a real
eye-opener for me.
But I'll never forget the onetime they said let's go around
the room and everybody saysomething positive, so we're not
just sitting here complaining.
So we got halfway around theroom and this one ministry
colleague says well, we justcompleted our $1 million
(20:33):
addition.
And I was thinking, dude youdidn't have to say the number.
Most of the pastors sitting heredon't even have facilities that
had that kind of price tag onit, so it's there.
Sometimes it's unintentional orthe person isn't tapped into.
(20:53):
Maybe I ought not to say thatnumber and the competition's
there.
Rob (20:59):
Right.
It's almost like it getsingrained in us over time
because those pastor fellowshipsconversations go that direction
all the time.
Margie (21:10):
Yeah, I don't know if that's an unknown fact for our
listeners or not, but anyway,moving on here.
So you found, at some point,then, a better environment in
which to work, an environmentthat valued, and this is what I
so appreciate from themillennials and youngers.
They seem to have a betterconcept or desire toward the
(21:35):
work-life balance.
Maybe they watched theirparents go great guns and said,
well, I'm not doing that, butyou found an environment that is
very supportive of that.
How does your life and yourpace in ministry look different
now compared to earlier years,when you were headed on the
burnout path?
Rob (21:57):
I know I used to feel guilty if I wasn't.
You know, I always felt like,am I doing enough?
Did I get enough done?
And would never turn off thework mindset on my day off,
whereas now I certainly feeltotally comfortable, I have a
clear conscience to take my dayoff or days off and not be
troubled by the work obligationsof ministry.
(22:20):
So that's a big part of it.
Yesterday I took a day off andmy supervisor had to contact me
with a question, and it was veryapologetic for even contacting
me, but it was.
We had to answer the question.
It was important.
So, but that's the key thing isbeing having a clear conscious
(22:41):
to turn off the work mindset ondays off to rest and just enjoy,
just enjoy being me.
And there were years too inministry and I know many
struggle with this where youridentity gets so wrapped up in
who you are in ministry that youlose sight of being you.
And so I remember one timefriends had said you know you
(23:03):
were, you kind of got lost inbeing Rob the student minister.
We're, we're glad to have justRob back and so so getting in
touch with yourself to be orjust to enjoy being you, the
person that God made you andcalled you to be and enjoying
his presence.
Margie (23:21):
Why do you think ministry leaders do that
Sacrifice themselves in that way?
Rob (23:28):
Yeah, you know that's a good question and I'm not sure
I'm to the heart of the issue.
I do think I don't know.
I mean, we're all fallen humanbeings, so we all have
insecurities to some degree.
But I wonder if it's the kindof people that are called to
ministry are also wired acertain way that we give our all
(23:51):
to our work and then we getenmeshed emotionally in it and
can't detach from it, yeah, yeah, and then going along with that
.
Margie (24:03):
Then is the feeling guilty, and I remember feeling
that way when I would go to thegym.
I felt like, oh no, I should beattending to my massive to-do
list.
I'm slacking here, when inreality, what I was doing was a
good thing for me and for myhealth, so that I could keep
(24:27):
going.
Rob (24:28):
Yeah, that's true, and you mentioned going to the gym.
That I used to.
Not, I used to try to run, butthen I, when I did join a gym,
that was totally new to me, butnow that's a key part of my
personal well-being is I reallyguard my workout time and I
don't.
I don't answer, I don't try totake calls or texts at the time
(24:49):
that I'm working out, andbecause that's just truly my
time to take calls or texts atthe time that I'm working out,
and because that's just truly mytime to take care of myself,
decompress, and so that's animportant element as well.
Margie (24:59):
Yeah, absolutely.
Any other newer well-beingchoices you've made.
Rob (25:08):
Nothing beyond that.
The quality quiet time, thedisconnecting on my day off with
a clear conscience, and thephysical fitness, I think have
been all key elements.
Well, I guess I would say too, Iwas always the type to I want
to do more and I want to do itfast.
I want to see everything getaccomplished and I want to see
us move into every ministryopportunity that we can.
(25:31):
But I'm realizing now that Ican't do everything, and as I
get older I slow down a littlebit, and so even in the setting
I'm in now, I still have a heartto see young adults reached in
our community, and so I didstart a young adult small group,
and that's somewhat beyond my.
It's not in my job description,so to speak, but it's on my
(25:55):
heart.
But I don't want to get stuckto where we grow, something like
where it needs a weekly largegroup meeting and I have to plan
a talk every week and that kindof stuff.
It would be how do we get theyoung adults to create a
movement where I'm not the youngadults pastor, so to speak,
because I have a full plate asthe adult discipleship pastor,
(26:17):
so I'm more guarded now to sayyou know what?
That's not, I can't take thaton.
I can't take any more on, andit's okay if I say no.
Margie (26:26):
That's.
I mean that's huge.
Okay To say no.
Rob (26:30):
Yeah.
Margie (26:30):
I mean, I think, when it comes to ministry, many pastors
feel like saying no is justlike saying no to God, even
though it might be somethingthat is more than what they
really can take and more thantoo much to have on one person's
(26:52):
plate.
Yeah right and more than toomuch to have on one person's
plate.
Yeah right, how did you dealthen with the expectations of
people?
I mean, it sounded like yourchurch planter group got it.
They understood Mm-hmm, but didyou ever have to deal with
other people's expectations ofyou, either then, when you were
(27:13):
in the throes of burnout, or now?
Rob (27:17):
I'd say maybe in the church planning circle I was in and
the network that we were in,there were competing views.
Fortunately, the pastor of mysponsoring church and I and our
specific our direct report, soto speak, in our association of
churches, we were on the samepage, but the leadership that
(27:39):
came from our state denominationwere not on the same page as us
, and so there was a little bitof tension there, and so that
was hard to a little bit hard tonavigate, and so that was, that
was hard to a little bit hardto navigate.
So then you felt like, well,I'm not performing to
expectations on one side, but Ithink I am on the other side.
And then, and then of course intime, we had people leave.
(28:01):
You know, they wanted to seecertain things take place in our
little ministry, but it wasn'thappening, and so they went
somewhere where it was.
So then you feel frustrated anddefeated, thinking, well, why
wouldn't?
I thought you were committed tohelp us grow this here, why
don't you help make it happenhere?
But instead they just checkedout to go somewhere else and so
(28:21):
had to let them go.
But you get discouraged.
So there's that discouragementas well.
Margie (28:29):
Yeah, yeah.
The fish are always jumpingfrom tank to tank.
Rob (28:33):
Yeah, yeah, so I think it's kind of a whole whole.
Nother conversation for anotherarena, but church planting.
I think that when churchplanters burn out or struggle
and the thing doesn't go,there's a lot of grief in in
that, like you, you went down adead end or you failed in
(28:54):
ministry.
So, even though everyonethought what we did was for that
season and God was in it, itwas fruitful, it was great, we
ended on a positive note.
But me, as the senior leader,can't help but feel like I
failed.
And so there's no at least inthe circle I was in, there was
no after debrief or triagesupport for a church planter in
(29:19):
that case, and I wonder ifanyone's dealing with that
anywhere.
Margie (29:24):
Yeah, that's a good point.
That was, I think, somewhat thebeginning for me of a
compassion for ministry leaders,when I saw church planters and
at the time parachute drops werethe thing.
This is a number of years ago,even though we know today that
their chance of survival ispretty small compared to some
(29:49):
other models.
But yeah, I saw church plantersfail and it was almost like
they, you know, they threw themout in the water from from the
pier and said, hey, can you swim?
After they threw them out andthen, when they couldn't swim,
you know it was like who'scalling them out and helping
(30:12):
them walk through the failure,the sense of failure that they
feel.
And of course, you know Goddoesn't waste anything.
And you learn.
You say what did we learn fromthat?
Okay, it didn't work out how weexpected.
What can we learn?
And but I saw, I felt like theywere too easily discarded and
(30:33):
then they move on to the nextthing and then, when one takes,
there's a whole lot of backslapping.
That goes on.
Hey, hey, hey.
This is amazing so then there'sthat comparison trap again I
know, I know, you know, and Iguess that's a rather crass
renditioning of what hashappened, but I'm just, you know
, I'm saying what I perceivedand how I felt, just a great
(30:56):
sense of sadness on their behalf.
So hopefully somebody has takenthat mantle up.
So if you were to talk to youryounger self prior to burnout,
what are the top couple ofthings that you would say, not
only to yourself, but then alsoas a way of offering that to our
(31:18):
friends who are listening?
Rob (31:20):
Yeah, I think I would certainly say slow down and
cultivate a quality quiet timewith God.
And then the other thing andI've reflected on this before is
I was, as a young adult, I wasbusy too.
I was growing this boomingcollege ministry and as a young
professional, I often wouldforfeit time to hang out with
(31:40):
our young professionals groupthat I was a part of, and I look
back now and I regret not.
You know, of course, withsocial media we stay somewhat
connected, but I realized Imissed out on developing some
key relationships and beingpresent with some people that
were really meaningful in mylife, and so I think the other
part is being present withpeople.
Margie (32:00):
Yes, yes, do not do this journey alone.
For any of us, whether you're alay person, whether you're a
ministry leader, whether it'sfriends, accountability group, a
coach, a mentor, something justdon't be doing this alone.
It's just.
I think we're meant toacknowledge the gifts that other
(32:25):
people are to us in our lives,are to us in our lives.
Well, thank you so much forwhat you brought here today to
the conversation about burnout,and I would like to ask you from
(32:51):
.
Rob (32:51):
Yeah, certainly I like to protect my time or what I want
to do.
So, even though I always pointout all of Jesus's ministry was
out of an interruption and weneed to allow interruptions and
margin in our lives for ministry, I certainly still get crabby
when I feel like people haveimposed on my time and corrupted
(33:15):
me.
Margie (33:17):
Oh well, thank you.
Thank you for offering that,and I'd like to ask that
question because it's just kindof a I don't know reality check
that ministry leaders get crabbytoo.
You know because we are people,right, right.
Well, thank you so much forbeing on the Crabby Pastor
(33:38):
podcast and sharing your burnoutstory in the spirit of may it
be helpful for someone else andmay God redeem this too.
Rob (33:47):
Thank you.
Margie (33:52):
So how do the pieces of your life fit together?
Do they fit together well andthings are humming along just
fine, or are there some piecesthat are tight or absent or just
not fitting the bill?
This is your invitation to joinme in my glass workshop for a
(34:14):
video series, where I am goingto do a stained glass project
while I talk to you aboutsustainability and building
sustainability into your heartand into your life.
So I am going to be doing myart, which is a form of
self-care, and I'm going toinvite you into that space with
(34:36):
me and I'm going to chat.
I'm going to chat aboutself-care and I'm going to show
you how I create, and there's anifty, nifty analogy.
Stained glass seems to be avery good metaphor for what I
want to talk about, so I'd lovefor you to join me.
To do that, to opt in, I'llneed you to email me at
(34:59):
crabbypastor at gmailcom.
That's crabbypastor at gmailcom.
So you won't want to miss this.
You definitely won't want tomiss this.
So make a plan to join me inthe glass workshop.
Are you wondering whether yourfatigue, your lack of motivation
(35:25):
, your lack of interest isburnout?
Maybe?
I just wanted to let you knowthat I have a resource on the
website, margiebryce dot comthat's B-R-Y-C-E MargieBryce dot
com, and it is a burnoutquestionnaire, free for you to
(35:52):
download, and kind ofself-assess and get a sense of
where you're at.
There are questions that notonly ask about what you're going
through but maybe how oftenyou're experiencing it and
that's kind of a key to whereyou might be, because you have
to know where you are in orderto chart a course forward.
(36:12):
And most pastors who experiencepastors and ministry leaders
who experience burnout rarelyknow that that's where they're
at until they're well into it.
And if you're unsure about thatlittle statistic, so far,
everybody that I've interviewedon this podcast who has
(36:36):
experienced burnout, when I askthat kind of question, they're
like, yeah, I didn't know that'swhere I was at.
So again, go to margiebricecom.
It's on the homepage of thewebsite and you can get your
burnout questionnaire and kindof see where you're at.
(36:57):
Hey friends, the Crabby Pastorpodcast is sponsored by Bryce
Art Glass and you can find thaton Facebook I make stained glass
as part of my self-care andalso by Bryce Coaching, where I
coach ministry leaders andbusiness leaders, and so the
(37:17):
funds that I generate fromcoaching and from making stained
glass is what is supportingthis podcast and I will have
opportunities for you to be apart of sponsoring me and, as
always, you can buy me a cup ofcoffee thing in the show notes
(37:40):
but I will have some other waysthat you can be a part of
getting the word out about theimportance of healthy self-care
for ministry leaders.
Hey, thanks for listening.
It is my deep desire andpassion to champion issues of
(38:02):
sustainability in ministry andfor your life, so I'm here to
help.
I stepped back from pastoralministry and I feel called to
help.
I stepped back from pastoralministry and I feel called to
help ministry leaders create andcultivate sustainability in
their lives so that they can gothe distance with God and
(38:24):
whatever plans that God has foryou.
I would love to help, I wouldconsider it an honor and, in all
things, make sure you connectto these sustainability
practices you know, so that youdon't become the Crabby Pastor.
Thank you.
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