June 21, 2023 • 23 mins
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What happens when you embrace your authentic self in the workplace? Join us as we sit down with Vanessa Sheridan, a globally recognized transgender workplace expert to discuss her inspiring journey to self-acceptance and the power of being genuine in our complex, changing world. Vanessa highlights the recent attacks on the trans community and emphasizes the importance of creating a sense of belonging during these turbulent times.
Why is it crucial for organizations to foster inclusivity and welcome minority groups? Vanessa shares her expertise on the challenges faced by the trans community and the efforts of some factions to erase LGBTQ individuals from society. Listen in as we delve into the conversation surrounding transgender inclusion in the workplace, discussing discrimination and the significance of open dialogue in creating equitable and diverse environments. Vanessa also shares her experiences challenging preconceived notions and advocating for transgender CEOs. Don't miss this thought-provoking and insightful episode with transgender workplace expert, Vanessa Sheridan.
www.vanessasheridan.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Justin (00:10):
Hello, welcome to the next episode of the Creating
Belonging Podcast.
I'm really excited today for myguest, Vanessa Sheridan.
I met Vanessa, I think, 16 plusyears ago, and Vanessa has been
a special part of my journey asa practitioner in diversity,
(00:31):
equity, inclusion and belonging.
It was when I was at HSBC andwe engaged with Vanessa to help
us build a program to helpfacilitate individuals
transitioning transgenderindividuals transitioning in the
workplace, and I learned somuch from Vanessa through that
(00:55):
experience about transgenderindividuals, respectful use of
language that I've carried withme to this day.
And so I'm really excited tohave Vanessa here.
And what's fun is that.
So met Vanessa I think it was2008-ish, 2007, 2008.
And then, about eight or nineyears later, I was at the Center
(01:17):
on Hall State here in Chicago,which is our local LGBTQ
community center, and I was atan event and Vanessa was there
And I was like Vanessa, what areyou doing here?
And she had taken a new role atthe center, so I was really
excited to have her in our localcommunity here in Chicago.
She has since moved back toMinneapolis and really doubling
(01:38):
down on her practice as anationally I would say probably
globally recognized transgenderworkplace expert who's authored
a couple of books.
But I normally don't give apreamble for my guests, but I
just had to for Vanessa today.
So, Vanessa, I'm really excitedto have you and I would love
for you to introduce yourself inyour own words.
Vanessa (01:59):
Thank you, my friend.
It is so good to see you.
I have always really enjoyed itwhen our paths have crossed,
and this is no exception.
It's a delight to be here withyou, and thank you for inviting
me.
I don't really have a whole lotto add to what you've already
shared.
I work as a transgenderawareness consultant I guess is
(02:20):
a good way to put it with majorcorporations and government
agencies and all kinds ofbusinesses around the country,
and I feel so fortunate to beable to make a living doing what
I love and what I believe makesa real difference for people.
And I feel very fortunate tohave had the opportunity to work
with some amazing organizations, including the US State
(02:44):
Department and the federal EEOC,and I'm currently working with
Pfizer and Marriott and justfinished a big project with H&M.
So, I've been again reallyfortunate to have been in a
position to take what I do andbring it to organizations and
try to help them become moretrans, inclusive and trans aware
(03:05):
.
And I feel like the work isgoing well, and certainly
there's a big need for it inthese turbulent and complex
times in which we live, and soI'm happy today to talk with you
about creating belonging inthat context, and so that's a
little bit about who I am, and Ihope that's sufficient for your
audience for now.
Justin (03:24):
Yeah, i love it.
Thank you, and Vanessa, most ofour people are listening And so
I would appreciate if youwouldn't mind just sharing, kind
of you know, a few markers ofidentity, of how do you identify
, just to kind of start toground us in our conversation
today.
Vanessa (03:44):
Yeah, well, I identify as transgender and have for a
long long time.
I knew I was different when Iwas two or three, but that was a
long time ago and that wasreally back before.
There were, you know, largecommunities available for the
internet was readily available,that kind of thing, and I grew
up basically kind of thinking Iwas the only person in the world
who's crazy enough to be likethis.
(04:05):
As I got older and, you know,began to realize that there are
a lot of us out there.
It made it easier for me tolean towards self acceptance and
in so doing, i found that thereare a whole lot of people who
simply need to be educated andmade aware of what transgender
is and what it isn't, and how itimpacts life in our society and
(04:28):
certainly in our institutionslike the workplace, and that's
where I focus most of myattention.
And so, yeah, again, I justfeel really fortunate to be able
to do that kind of work.
Justin (04:39):
Yeah, you, the work you do is amazing and so needed,
especially in I think ourconversation could go a couple
of directions today, and I wouldlove to, I definitely want to
focus on your experience andkind of just share your own
experience of belonging.
But I think you know there arethe trans community is under
attack again and, at least in my, you know, in my experience of
(05:05):
you know, being a part of theLGBTQ community is under attack
in a way that I haven't seen inmy lifetime.
Granted, you know it would gothrough waves right, so I think
it would be important to talkabout that as well.
But what I'd like to go back tois you just mentioned that it
took you a while to get to aplace of self-acceptance, and
(05:27):
that's, you know, the part ofauthenticity in the creating the
logging model.
So let's start there and talkabout your journey to
self-acceptance.
Vanessa (05:35):
Well, one of the things I've learned along the way is
that being your authentic selfis a process, it's not an event.
And process is taken, and somine unfolded, you know, over
many years of reading andresearching and, you know,
talking to people and learningand trying to grow and, you know
, move toward an acceptance ofwho and what I am.
(05:58):
And that was not always easybecause, as I'm sure you're
aware, as most of your listenersand viewers are aware, society
is not exactly, you know,aligned, you know, to be
welcoming and understanding oftransgender people.
In fact, frankly, most peopletend to be afraid of what they
don't understand, and fear canoften bring animosity and
(06:21):
negativity.
And so I think the way toaddress those kinds of things is
to (A) be as authentic as I canpossibly be and, (B) try to
share that authenticity withpeople in ways that are
accessible and easilyunderstandable.
And so, you know, the quest forauthenticity, the journey to
authenticity, is one that hasbeen remarkable for me anyway,
(06:47):
and that continues to go on.
You know, every day I learnsomething new about myself and
about the world and about thetransgender community, and so
you know it's an ongoing kind ofsituation.
Authenticity is not adestination, it's a journey,
no-transcript, a situation inwhich we find ourselves, and we
(07:08):
can take that situation and wecan go in whichever direction we
feel is best for us, and that'swhat I've tried.
Justin (07:15):
I like the way that you talk about authenticity being a
journey, because I think I don'tin the book or in the work I
haven't really stated that soexplicitly, but it is.
You know, there's the, youknow, there's the, what I've, I
explain what people talk aboutthe, what they see as the bad
side of authenticity is like ifyou're an asshole, then you can
(07:36):
just be authentically an asshole, and I don't think that's what
authenticity is about, right,because nobody wants yeah,
nobody wants to be that, and soit's a journey of continuing to
discover who we are and-.
Vanessa (07:49):
Hopefully improving.
Justin (07:51):
Yes, improving and growing into that, you know, for
I think you have such a richexperience in your journey.
Can you think of any momentsyou know in your journey that
were pivotal in terms of yourself-acceptance or leading to
(08:11):
authenticity?
Vanessa (08:13):
I can point to a couple of things, and these were a
long time ago, you know, 30years ago or longer, when I was
first coming out and first, youknow, easing my way into the
community, as it were.
I attended an event in 1996that was actually held here in
(08:35):
Minneapolis, where I live.
It was a national event put onby the International Foundation
for Gender Education, IFGE, ifsome of you may remember that,
but in any case they had a bigconference here in the Twin
Cities at one of the majorhotels, and I attended that
(08:55):
conference and it was reallyeye-opening for me to meet so
many people from around thecountry and even around the
world who were also dealing withsame issues that I'm dealing
with.
And I learned so much and hadmy eyes opened so much just by
having that communal experienceand being together with other
(09:17):
folks who could teach me things,who could share things, who
could open me up to newpossibilities.
And I remember, particularly onthe last night of the
conference, they had their biggala dinner, which is typical of
these kinds of things, andeverybody comes together in one
of the great big hotel ballroomsand they have a big dinner and
they have a program.
You know, everybody gets alldressed up to the nines and it
(09:39):
was a big deal.
But it was the first time I hadever done that in the context
of being with a transgendercommunity itself.
And I remember walking into thatroom that night and looking
around and seeing severalhundred transgender people all
looking great and being there tocelebrate who and what they are
(09:59):
and to come together incommunity and draw strength from
each other and that kind ofthing, and I was so moved by
that.
I was emotionally juststaggered because again, as I up
until fairly recently beforethat, i always thought I was the
only one in the world that wasthis crazy.
And now I'm finding myself inthis room with all of these
(10:20):
other people who are definitelynot crazy but who are, you know,
proud to be trans and that kindof thing.
The idea of being proud to betransgender had never even
crossed my mind until that night.
And then all of a sudden, irealized there's a lot to be
proud of and it brought me totears on several occasions that
evening.
I was so emotionally impactedby that experience, and I
(10:45):
carried it with me for a longtime after.
I'm still talking about it 30years later.
But that's how big an impact ithad on me in terms of letting
me know that the possibilitiesfor making a difference are
endless.
And so what I've tried to do isto take that knowledge and that
awareness, turn it intosomething tangible that I can
bring you know to the world, tothe business community, to the
(11:09):
transgender community, and saylisten, you know, here is this
incredible community of people,the trans community, that has so
much talent, so muchintelligence, so much experience
and so many unique worldviewsand perspectives to bring to the
table, and so I think what weneed to do as a society is begin
(11:32):
to recognize the beneficialaspects of that community in a
way that will allow us to createbelonging for that community
within the context of ourinstitutional frameworks, such
as the business community, andso that's been my focus for a
(11:54):
long time now.
It's something that I'mpassionate about, something I
care deeply about, and somethingthat I'm personally invested in
.
It's not only my work, it's mylife, and because that's true,
I'm very just emotionallyengaged with it as well as
intellectually andprofessionally.
I hope some of this is makingsense.
I'm just kind of babbling herein the stream of consciousness
(12:15):
stuff.
You know.
You asked about experiencesthat I've had or particular
times that I can look back on,and the one I shared with you
back in 1996, that was a big onefor me.
It got me kind of pointed inthe direction that I'm on, the
path that I'm still on today.
So that was a big deal for me.
Justin (12:35):
Yeah, that's amazing.
So I pulled a few things out ofthere.
One was this idea that in thebook I talk about defining
community as you know, a groupof people who converge for you
know, at least one purpose Andthere's a perspective of it that
I haven't thought about yet,that you just shone a light on
(12:56):
which is that, as individuals,when we don't belong in our
communities, when we find ourtribe, when we find the
community of people that arelike us or that share something
right, we have some affinitywith these people We can find
(13:18):
belonging much more quickly and,at the same time, discover our
authenticity.
Vanessa (13:23):
Yeah, Well, i think the reason we can find our
authenticity is because we'renow in a situation or a context
or a position to be supported,you know, in moving toward that
authenticity, because there areothers making that journey along
with us, and so that providesagain a context, a framework, if
(13:45):
you will, for us in which wecan grow and flourish and move
toward that authenticity piece,and then we bring that into and
I think, where you focus yourwork a lot and by work of
creating belonging really isalso focused in workplaces.
Justin (14:02):
I talk about communities more broadly because I think
there's application in any groupof people that converge, but in
workplaces, i think we have animperative to ensure that we are
, you know, inclusive, creatingbelonging for the people that
are in those workplaces, andthat the businesses understand
(14:24):
that they are reflective of thepopulation that they serve.
For me, that's the imperativeis, you know, are you, if you're
serving a diverse population,if you have, you know,
transgender people consumingyour products, why don't you
have transgender people workingfor you?
Vanessa (14:46):
Yeah, and in your marketing pieces and in
everything that you do, whydon't you specifically make
transgender people a part ofeverything your organization
does?
That would seem to make sense.
If transgender people arebuying your products or your
services, then I think the leastyou could do would be include
(15:06):
them.
Yeah yeah.
And so, in terms of marketingto that community and that sort
of thing.
So, inclusion works both ways.
Justin (15:18):
Yes.
So, I know you're not afraid toget a little controversial, and
so let's dance a little bit,because it makes me think about
what's going on with Bud Lightand Dylan O'Vaney.
And Bud Light has somehowridiculously, brilliantly upset
(15:40):
everyone.
Vanessa (15:41):
Yeah.
Justin (15:47):
And it's interesting.
I'm gonna share a little pieceand then I would love to hear
your thoughts.
I was speaking with someone whosaid well, I just don't
understand why they need to becontroversial.
And I'm like but trans peopleexist, no one can question that,
and I would venture to guessthat trans people also drink
(16:08):
beer.
So why is this controversial?
And, by the way, no advancementmade without no advancement in
society was made without alittle bit of controversy.
What are your thoughts?
Vanessa (16:22):
Maybe a hundred percent .
First of all, the existence oftrans people is not a
controversy, it's simply areality.
It's the reality.
We have been around since thedawn of history, and I don't
think we're going away anytimesoon.
So, to try to ignore thepresence and the reality of
(16:42):
transgender people is simplyfoolish.
And it's not like transgenderpeople are taking over the
advertising industry, becausewe're not.
And it's not like trans peopleare heavily promoted in the
media, because we're not.
What we are dealing with and Ithink you know this as well as I
(17:03):
is we're looking at a much,much larger attempt to eradicate
LGBTQ folks from society bycertain factions, and that
should come as no surprise toanybody, but the fact that it's
so become such an open kind ofsituation.
(17:26):
Never in my lifetime have I seensuch direct attacks upon the
trans community as we're seeingright now In the political realm
, social realm, and so I thinkit's really imperative that we
be aware of the things that arehappening in the country and in
society.
And juxtapose those against aworldview that is diverse, that
(17:52):
is inclusive, that invitespeople to come in and belong, as
opposed to excluding peoplesimply because of who and what
they are.
That seems a little ridiculousto me, and so my hope is that,
despite the bizarre scenariowith Bud Light and, you know,
(18:13):
Dylan Mulvaney, I thinkhopefully we can move past that
and we as a society can begin torealize that trans people are a
part of a much larger tapestrythat exists within society.
Because that's true, we have tobe prepared to welcome minority
(18:35):
groups, like the transcommunity, for example, and
appreciate what the transcommunity again can bring to the
table, and we can bring a lot.
There's a lot of smart,talented, capable trans people
out there, and to ignore them orreject them, I think does a
disservice to everyone.
Justin (18:54):
So, when it comes to belonging, and maybe let's think
about the workplace, I thinkthat something that I hear from
folks is why can't you justleave it at home, or you know,
like it's a workplace?
Why do we have to be politicalin the workplace?
What do you say to those people?
Vanessa (19:17):
Well, first of all, the fact of someone's existence is
not a political question.
It's simply a reality andbecause that's true, we have no
business questioning whether ornot it's appropriate to bring to
the workplace.
I would think thatorganizations would want to have
people working there who can betheir authentic selves, because
(19:37):
that lends to greaterproductivity.
I can go off on a whole tangentabout gender authenticity.
It was a big part of my lastbook, but I'm not gonna do that
right now.
But I will say that when peoplequestion the validity of a
transgender presence, say in theworkplace, I think it's
important that we recognizewhere that's coming from.
(19:59):
It's more like you are someonewho doesn't necessarily belong
here, not because of anythingyou've done, but because of who
and what you are, and I'm sorrybut that's just not acceptable.
It just isn't, and we need tomake sure our organizations
understand that.
That's my approach.
When people you know have thosekinds of conversations with me,
(20:22):
I try to get them to look atthe bigger picture and not just
approach it from a politicalstandpoint or anything along
those lines.
It's about what's the rightthing to do.
You know what's the best thingto do to be as inclusive and as
diverse and as equitable as wepossibly can, and so that's a
(20:43):
long conversation.
That's not something that wenormally get resolved in 20
minutes, but it needs to be partof an ongoing, unfolding
dialogue that happens over years, frankly, as organizations come
to grips with the presence ofdifferent kinds of people, you
know, in their workforce and intheir client base, and whatever
(21:05):
it might be.
And that's something that Ispent a lot of time talking
about with organizations is tofind out what it is that they're
looking to do, why they want todo it and what they think is
the best way to achieve that,and then I work with them to
develop programs that will helpmeet those particular goals, as
that we've been able toarticulate and define.
Justin (21:26):
So, as you look at your engagements with different
organizations, I'm gonna tee upone story and then get your
thoughts on kind of how you'veexperienced these conversations.
Many, many years ago, when Iwould deliver a diversity
workshop, there were these casestudies that we would use and
they would be around you know,age or gender in the you know
(21:48):
male, female, kind of cis, Ishould say kind of cisgender
individuals.
You know the kind of thetypical stuff that we would talk
about, say, 20 years ago whenit comes to diversity.
But there was one case studythat was about, you know,
transgender individual in theworkplace, and so conversations
20 years ago about transgenderindividuals was very different
(22:10):
than today, and so I loved usingthat because I wanted to
challenge people and get them tothink differently.
And there would just be thesereactions, like, you know, if
you're talking about having afemale CEO, versus what if we
had a transgender CEO?
you know, female CEO?
oh, of course, you know,consciously I can say yes, we
should absolutely do that.
(22:30):
And then when I would pose whatif we had a transgender CEO,
people would just lose theirlids.
And I'm curious, as you've goneinto organizations and worked
with executives who have kind ofrigid ideas around what is
professional and acceptable.
What are some examples ofconversations you've had?
Hey y'all Justin here, as wesaw in episode six, our
(22:55):
conversation was long enough fortwo episodes and we've done it
again.
Pick back up with us next weekto hear Vanessa's thoughts on
that last question And we'll goeven deeper to the implications
of current legislation in somestates and how it impacts
belonging.
Hello, welcome to the next episode of the Creating
Belonging Podcast.
I'm really excited today for myguest, Vanessa Sheridan.
I met Vanessa, I think, 16 plusyears ago, and Vanessa has been
a special part of my journey asa practitioner in diversity,
(00:31):
equity, inclusion and belonging.
It was when I was at HSBC andwe engaged with Vanessa to help
us build a program to helpfacilitate individuals
transitioning transgenderindividuals transitioning in the
workplace, and I learned somuch from Vanessa through that
(00:55):
experience about transgenderindividuals, respectful use of
language that I've carried withme to this day.
And so I'm really excited tohave Vanessa here.
And what's fun is that.
So met Vanessa I think it was2008-ish, 2007, 2008.
And then, about eight or nineyears later, I was at the Center
(01:17):
on Hall State here in Chicago,which is our local LGBTQ
community center, and I was atan event and Vanessa was there
And I was like Vanessa, what areyou doing here?
And she had taken a new role atthe center, so I was really
excited to have her in our localcommunity here in Chicago.
She has since moved back toMinneapolis and really doubling
(01:38):
down on her practice as anationally I would say probably
globally recognized transgenderworkplace expert who's authored
a couple of books.
But I normally don't give apreamble for my guests, but I
just had to for Vanessa today.
So, Vanessa, I'm really excitedto have you and I would love
for you to introduce yourself inyour own words.
Vanessa (01:59):
Thank you, my friend.
It is so good to see you.
I have always really enjoyed itwhen our paths have crossed,
and this is no exception.
It's a delight to be here withyou, and thank you for inviting
me.
I don't really have a whole lotto add to what you've already
shared.
I work as a transgenderawareness consultant I guess is
(02:20):
a good way to put it with majorcorporations and government
agencies and all kinds ofbusinesses around the country,
and I feel so fortunate to beable to make a living doing what
I love and what I believe makesa real difference for people.
And I feel very fortunate tohave had the opportunity to work
with some amazing organizations, including the US State
(02:44):
Department and the federal EEOC,and I'm currently working with
Pfizer and Marriott and justfinished a big project with H&M.
So, I've been again reallyfortunate to have been in a
position to take what I do andbring it to organizations and
try to help them become moretrans, inclusive and trans aware
(03:05):
.
And I feel like the work isgoing well, and certainly
there's a big need for it inthese turbulent and complex
times in which we live, and soI'm happy today to talk with you
about creating belonging inthat context, and so that's a
little bit about who I am, and Ihope that's sufficient for your
audience for now.
Justin (03:24):
Yeah, i love it.
Thank you, and Vanessa, most ofour people are listening And so
I would appreciate if youwouldn't mind just sharing, kind
of you know, a few markers ofidentity, of how do you identify
, just to kind of start toground us in our conversation
today.
Vanessa (03:44):
Yeah, well, I identify as transgender and have for a
long long time.
I knew I was different when Iwas two or three, but that was a
long time ago and that wasreally back before.
There were, you know, largecommunities available for the
internet was readily available,that kind of thing, and I grew
up basically kind of thinking Iwas the only person in the world
who's crazy enough to be likethis.
(04:05):
As I got older and, you know,began to realize that there are
a lot of us out there.
It made it easier for me tolean towards self acceptance and
in so doing, i found that thereare a whole lot of people who
simply need to be educated andmade aware of what transgender
is and what it isn't, and how itimpacts life in our society and
(04:28):
certainly in our institutionslike the workplace, and that's
where I focus most of myattention.
And so, yeah, again, I justfeel really fortunate to be able
to do that kind of work.
Justin (04:39):
Yeah, you, the work you do is amazing and so needed,
especially in I think ourconversation could go a couple
of directions today, and I wouldlove to, I definitely want to
focus on your experience andkind of just share your own
experience of belonging.
But I think you know there arethe trans community is under
attack again and, at least in my, you know, in my experience of
(05:05):
you know, being a part of theLGBTQ community is under attack
in a way that I haven't seen inmy lifetime.
Granted, you know it would gothrough waves right, so I think
it would be important to talkabout that as well.
But what I'd like to go back tois you just mentioned that it
took you a while to get to aplace of self-acceptance, and
(05:27):
that's, you know, the part ofauthenticity in the creating the
logging model.
So let's start there and talkabout your journey to
self-acceptance.
Vanessa (05:35):
Well, one of the things I've learned along the way is
that being your authentic selfis a process, it's not an event.
And process is taken, and somine unfolded, you know, over
many years of reading andresearching and, you know,
talking to people and learningand trying to grow and, you know
, move toward an acceptance ofwho and what I am.
(05:58):
And that was not always easybecause, as I'm sure you're
aware, as most of your listenersand viewers are aware, society
is not exactly, you know,aligned, you know, to be
welcoming and understanding oftransgender people.
In fact, frankly, most peopletend to be afraid of what they
don't understand, and fear canoften bring animosity and
(06:21):
negativity.
And so I think the way toaddress those kinds of things is
to (A) be as authentic as I canpossibly be and, (B) try to
share that authenticity withpeople in ways that are
accessible and easilyunderstandable.
And so, you know, the quest forauthenticity, the journey to
authenticity, is one that hasbeen remarkable for me anyway,
(06:47):
and that continues to go on.
You know, every day I learnsomething new about myself and
about the world and about thetransgender community, and so
you know it's an ongoing kind ofsituation.
Authenticity is not adestination, it's a journey,
no-transcript, a situation inwhich we find ourselves, and we
(07:08):
can take that situation and wecan go in whichever direction we
feel is best for us, and that'swhat I've tried.
Justin (07:15):
I like the way that you talk about authenticity being a
journey, because I think I don'tin the book or in the work I
haven't really stated that soexplicitly, but it is.
You know, there's the, youknow, there's the, what I've, I
explain what people talk aboutthe, what they see as the bad
side of authenticity is like ifyou're an asshole, then you can
(07:36):
just be authentically an asshole, and I don't think that's what
authenticity is about, right,because nobody wants yeah,
nobody wants to be that, and soit's a journey of continuing to
discover who we are and-.
Vanessa (07:49):
Hopefully improving.
Justin (07:51):
Yes, improving and growing into that, you know, for
I think you have such a richexperience in your journey.
Can you think of any momentsyou know in your journey that
were pivotal in terms of yourself-acceptance or leading to
(08:11):
authenticity?
Vanessa (08:13):
I can point to a couple of things, and these were a
long time ago, you know, 30years ago or longer, when I was
first coming out and first, youknow, easing my way into the
community, as it were.
I attended an event in 1996that was actually held here in
(08:35):
Minneapolis, where I live.
It was a national event put onby the International Foundation
for Gender Education, IFGE, ifsome of you may remember that,
but in any case they had a bigconference here in the Twin
Cities at one of the majorhotels, and I attended that
(08:55):
conference and it was reallyeye-opening for me to meet so
many people from around thecountry and even around the
world who were also dealing withsame issues that I'm dealing
with.
And I learned so much and hadmy eyes opened so much just by
having that communal experienceand being together with other
(09:17):
folks who could teach me things,who could share things, who
could open me up to newpossibilities.
And I remember, particularly onthe last night of the
conference, they had their biggala dinner, which is typical of
these kinds of things, andeverybody comes together in one
of the great big hotel ballroomsand they have a big dinner and
they have a program.
You know, everybody gets alldressed up to the nines and it
(09:39):
was a big deal.
But it was the first time I hadever done that in the context
of being with a transgendercommunity itself.
And I remember walking into thatroom that night and looking
around and seeing severalhundred transgender people all
looking great and being there tocelebrate who and what they are
(09:59):
and to come together incommunity and draw strength from
each other and that kind ofthing, and I was so moved by
that.
I was emotionally juststaggered because again, as I up
until fairly recently beforethat, i always thought I was the
only one in the world that wasthis crazy.
And now I'm finding myself inthis room with all of these
(10:20):
other people who are definitelynot crazy but who are, you know,
proud to be trans and that kindof thing.
The idea of being proud to betransgender had never even
crossed my mind until that night.
And then all of a sudden, irealized there's a lot to be
proud of and it brought me totears on several occasions that
evening.
I was so emotionally impactedby that experience, and I
(10:45):
carried it with me for a longtime after.
I'm still talking about it 30years later.
But that's how big an impact ithad on me in terms of letting
me know that the possibilitiesfor making a difference are
endless.
And so what I've tried to do isto take that knowledge and that
awareness, turn it intosomething tangible that I can
bring you know to the world, tothe business community, to the
(11:09):
transgender community, and saylisten, you know, here is this
incredible community of people,the trans community, that has so
much talent, so muchintelligence, so much experience
and so many unique worldviewsand perspectives to bring to the
table, and so I think what weneed to do as a society is begin
(11:32):
to recognize the beneficialaspects of that community in a
way that will allow us to createbelonging for that community
within the context of ourinstitutional frameworks, such
as the business community, andso that's been my focus for a
(11:54):
long time now.
It's something that I'mpassionate about, something I
care deeply about, and somethingthat I'm personally invested in
.
It's not only my work, it's mylife, and because that's true,
I'm very just emotionallyengaged with it as well as
intellectually andprofessionally.
I hope some of this is makingsense.
I'm just kind of babbling herein the stream of consciousness
(12:15):
stuff.
You know.
You asked about experiencesthat I've had or particular
times that I can look back on,and the one I shared with you
back in 1996, that was a big onefor me.
It got me kind of pointed inthe direction that I'm on, the
path that I'm still on today.
So that was a big deal for me.
Justin (12:35):
Yeah, that's amazing.
So I pulled a few things out ofthere.
One was this idea that in thebook I talk about defining
community as you know, a groupof people who converge for you
know, at least one purpose Andthere's a perspective of it that
I haven't thought about yet,that you just shone a light on
(12:56):
which is that, as individuals,when we don't belong in our
communities, when we find ourtribe, when we find the
community of people that arelike us or that share something
right, we have some affinitywith these people We can find
(13:18):
belonging much more quickly and,at the same time, discover our
authenticity.
Vanessa (13:23):
Yeah, Well, i think the reason we can find our
authenticity is because we'renow in a situation or a context
or a position to be supported,you know, in moving toward that
authenticity, because there areothers making that journey along
with us, and so that providesagain a context, a framework, if
(13:45):
you will, for us in which wecan grow and flourish and move
toward that authenticity piece,and then we bring that into and
I think, where you focus yourwork a lot and by work of
creating belonging really isalso focused in workplaces.
Justin (14:02):
I talk about communities more broadly because I think
there's application in any groupof people that converge, but in
workplaces, i think we have animperative to ensure that we are
, you know, inclusive, creatingbelonging for the people that
are in those workplaces, andthat the businesses understand
(14:24):
that they are reflective of thepopulation that they serve.
For me, that's the imperativeis, you know, are you, if you're
serving a diverse population,if you have, you know,
transgender people consumingyour products, why don't you
have transgender people workingfor you?
Vanessa (14:46):
Yeah, and in your marketing pieces and in
everything that you do, whydon't you specifically make
transgender people a part ofeverything your organization
does?
That would seem to make sense.
If transgender people arebuying your products or your
services, then I think the leastyou could do would be include
(15:06):
them.
Yeah yeah.
And so, in terms of marketingto that community and that sort
of thing.
So, inclusion works both ways.
Justin (15:18):
Yes.
So, I know you're not afraid toget a little controversial, and
so let's dance a little bit,because it makes me think about
what's going on with Bud Lightand Dylan O'Vaney.
And Bud Light has somehowridiculously, brilliantly upset
(15:40):
everyone.
Vanessa (15:41):
Yeah.
Justin (15:47):
And it's interesting.
I'm gonna share a little pieceand then I would love to hear
your thoughts.
I was speaking with someone whosaid well, I just don't
understand why they need to becontroversial.
And I'm like but trans peopleexist, no one can question that,
and I would venture to guessthat trans people also drink
(16:08):
beer.
So why is this controversial?
And, by the way, no advancementmade without no advancement in
society was made without alittle bit of controversy.
What are your thoughts?
Vanessa (16:22):
Maybe a hundred percent .
First of all, the existence oftrans people is not a
controversy, it's simply areality.
It's the reality.
We have been around since thedawn of history, and I don't
think we're going away anytimesoon.
So, to try to ignore thepresence and the reality of
(16:42):
transgender people is simplyfoolish.
And it's not like transgenderpeople are taking over the
advertising industry, becausewe're not.
And it's not like trans peopleare heavily promoted in the
media, because we're not.
What we are dealing with and Ithink you know this as well as I
(17:03):
is we're looking at a much,much larger attempt to eradicate
LGBTQ folks from society bycertain factions, and that
should come as no surprise toanybody, but the fact that it's
so become such an open kind ofsituation.
(17:26):
Never in my lifetime have I seensuch direct attacks upon the
trans community as we're seeingright now In the political realm
, social realm, and so I thinkit's really imperative that we
be aware of the things that arehappening in the country and in
society.
And juxtapose those against aworldview that is diverse, that
(17:52):
is inclusive, that invitespeople to come in and belong, as
opposed to excluding peoplesimply because of who and what
they are.
That seems a little ridiculousto me, and so my hope is that,
despite the bizarre scenariowith Bud Light and, you know,
(18:13):
Dylan Mulvaney, I thinkhopefully we can move past that
and we as a society can begin torealize that trans people are a
part of a much larger tapestrythat exists within society.
Because that's true, we have tobe prepared to welcome minority
(18:35):
groups, like the transcommunity, for example, and
appreciate what the transcommunity again can bring to the
table, and we can bring a lot.
There's a lot of smart,talented, capable trans people
out there, and to ignore them orreject them, I think does a
disservice to everyone.
Justin (18:54):
So, when it comes to belonging, and maybe let's think
about the workplace, I thinkthat something that I hear from
folks is why can't you justleave it at home, or you know,
like it's a workplace?
Why do we have to be politicalin the workplace?
What do you say to those people?
Vanessa (19:17):
Well, first of all, the fact of someone's existence is
not a political question.
It's simply a reality andbecause that's true, we have no
business questioning whether ornot it's appropriate to bring to
the workplace.
I would think thatorganizations would want to have
people working there who can betheir authentic selves, because
(19:37):
that lends to greaterproductivity.
I can go off on a whole tangentabout gender authenticity.
It was a big part of my lastbook, but I'm not gonna do that
right now.
But I will say that when peoplequestion the validity of a
transgender presence, say in theworkplace, I think it's
important that we recognizewhere that's coming from.
(19:59):
It's more like you are someonewho doesn't necessarily belong
here, not because of anythingyou've done, but because of who
and what you are, and I'm sorrybut that's just not acceptable.
It just isn't, and we need tomake sure our organizations
understand that.
That's my approach.
When people you know have thosekinds of conversations with me,
(20:22):
I try to get them to look atthe bigger picture and not just
approach it from a politicalstandpoint or anything along
those lines.
It's about what's the rightthing to do.
You know what's the best thingto do to be as inclusive and as
diverse and as equitable as wepossibly can, and so that's a
(20:43):
long conversation.
That's not something that wenormally get resolved in 20
minutes, but it needs to be partof an ongoing, unfolding
dialogue that happens over years, frankly, as organizations come
to grips with the presence ofdifferent kinds of people, you
know, in their workforce and intheir client base, and whatever
(21:05):
it might be.
And that's something that Ispent a lot of time talking
about with organizations is tofind out what it is that they're
looking to do, why they want todo it and what they think is
the best way to achieve that,and then I work with them to
develop programs that will helpmeet those particular goals, as
that we've been able toarticulate and define.
Justin (21:26):
So, as you look at your engagements with different
organizations, I'm gonna tee upone story and then get your
thoughts on kind of how you'veexperienced these conversations.
Many, many years ago, when Iwould deliver a diversity
workshop, there were these casestudies that we would use and
they would be around you know,age or gender in the you know
(21:48):
male, female, kind of cis, Ishould say kind of cisgender
individuals.
You know the kind of thetypical stuff that we would talk
about, say, 20 years ago whenit comes to diversity.
But there was one case studythat was about, you know,
transgender individual in theworkplace, and so conversations
20 years ago about transgenderindividuals was very different
(22:10):
than today, and so I loved usingthat because I wanted to
challenge people and get them tothink differently.
And there would just be thesereactions, like, you know, if
you're talking about having afemale CEO, versus what if we
had a transgender CEO?
you know, female CEO?
oh, of course, you know,consciously I can say yes, we
should absolutely do that.
(22:30):
And then when I would pose whatif we had a transgender CEO,
people would just lose theirlids.
And I'm curious, as you've goneinto organizations and worked
with executives who have kind ofrigid ideas around what is
professional and acceptable.
What are some examples ofconversations you've had?
Hey y'all Justin here, as wesaw in episode six, our
(22:55):
conversation was long enough fortwo episodes and we've done it
again.
Pick back up with us next weekto hear Vanessa's thoughts on
that last question And we'll goeven deeper to the implications
of current legislation in somestates and how it impacts
belonging.
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