June 28, 2023 • 26 mins
Let us know what you think of this podcast!
Are you ready to challenge your ideas about professionalism and gender in the workplace? Join us as we sit down with the insightful Vanessa Sheridan to discuss transgender inclusion and the concept of gender authenticity. Vanessa helps us understand how embracing acceptance and understanding within the workplace can lead to increased productivity, teamwork, and a stronger internal brand. Listen in to learn how you can contribute to fostering a more inclusive environment where everyone can be their authentic selves.
In today's climate, companies claiming to be allies must step up and fight against the numerous anti-trans bills being passed or pending in state houses across the nation. Vanessa shares the importance of honoring the history of the transgender community and their role in the gay rights movement. We also discuss the need for organizations to support LGBTQ employees beyond just Pride Month and to speak out against any attacks on their employees.
Lastly, Vanessa highlights her significant role in raising awareness and educating others on transgender issues. Discover how her work is making a difference and how we can all help continue this vital mission. Reflect on the importance of creating an inclusive workplace where individuals are accepted for who they are, ultimately fostering a more successful and harmonious environment for everyone. Tune in to be inspired and empowered to make a positive change in your workplace today!
www.vanessasheridan.com
You can order your copy of Creating Belonging on Amazon.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Justin (00:11):
Hey, Justin here Heads up.
This is part two of a two partepisode.
If you haven't already listenedto the first half, I recommend
you do that first.
And now we pick back up withVanessa.
Many, many years ago, when Iwould deliver a diversity
workshop, there were these casestudies that we would use and
(00:31):
they would be around age orgender and male, female, cis
gender individuals.
The typical stuff that we wouldtalk about, say, 20 years ago
when it comes to diversity.
But there was one case studythat was about transgender
(00:51):
individual in the workplace, andso conversations 20 years ago
about transgender individualswas very different than today,
and so I loved using thatbecause I wanted to challenge
people and get them to thinkdifferently.
And there would just be thesereactions Like if you're talking
about having a female CEO,versus what if we had a
transgender CEO?
You know female CEO?
(01:12):
Oh, of course, you know.
Consciously, I can say yes, weshould absolutely do that.
And then when I would pose whatif we had a transgender CEO?
people would just lose theirlids.
And I'm curious, as you've goneinto organizations and worked
with executives who have kind ofrigid ideas around what is
professional and acceptable.
(01:33):
What are some examples ofconversations you've had?
Vanessa (01:37):
You know, professional and acceptable are loaded terms
And they can mean a lot ofdifferent things to different
people.
It depends on who you'retalking to when you use those
terms.
But I know what you say and Ithink, when you run into
executives who have those who,have that mentality that you
(01:59):
just talked about, that's kindof still locked in 20, 30 years
ago and hasn't really progressedinto the 21st century.
Yet, you know, you have tostart with some real basics, and
one of the things I like to dois to get people to back up, you
know, maybe let down theirguard a little bit, lose some of
(02:21):
their stereotypes and let'sjust talk about realities.
And I give them, you know Ilike to have, well, I guess one
of the things I always suggestis the way to deal with this
issue is to become aware and tobecome educated.
You know, no real progress isgoing to happen until people
raise their awareness level.
And so that's what I spend alot of my time doing is creating
(02:44):
programs and deliveringtrainings and, you know,
seminars and workshops thatpeople can understand and can
access and that can give them abasic framework of understanding
that will allow them to movepast the old gender stereotypes.
You know I said I wasn't goingto spend a lot of time talking
(03:04):
about gender authenticity, but Ithink this might be a good
place to jump in.
Here's my definition of genderauthenticity, and I included
this in my last book genderauthenticity is the right of
every individual to expresstheir orientation and their
identity without fear ofcoercion to conform to social
(03:25):
stereotypes.
So if we can get out from underthat whole coercion piece where
we're forced to conform tosocial stereotypes, if we can
get past that and allow peopleto bring their authentic selves
to work instead of wearing somemask or creating a false persona
or pretending to be someonethey're not, if we can get past
(03:48):
that, what that does is open usup to be our authentic selves
and allow us to accept otherpeople's authenticity as well,
which again takes us to a wholedifferent level in terms of what
we're able to achieve asindividuals and corporate.
And I try to share that withorganizations and say listen, if
(04:08):
we do this, your teamwork isgoing to improve, your internal
branding is going to improve,your overall productivity is
going to improve and, in alllikelihood, your bottom line is
going to improve.
And most organizations get itwhen you start talking about
(04:29):
bottom lines.
So I think it's just aquestion of putting it into
context and helping peopleunderstand that this kind of
thing and raising awareness andeducating ourselves about this
particular phenomenon is goingto be beneficial, because trans
people are here, we're not goingaway.
There are many, manyorganizations that have openly
(04:51):
trans people working in them now, and it's really just a
question of equippingorganizations with the tools and
information and resources theyneed to be prepared to deal
effectively with those folks inworkplace situations.
And that's my job.
That's what I try to do is toprovide that equipping in ways
(05:12):
that are meaningful andaccessible and useful.
Justin (05:14):
I couldn't help but think of RuPaul's quote of we're
all born naked and the rest isdrag Yeah.
Vanessa (05:24):
To a certain degree, that's true, it's, i think of.
Justin (05:29):
You know it's part of gender expression is just the
clothes that we wear.
Vanessa (05:34):
Yes, of course.
Justin (05:36):
And and you know I would there was someone that I was
debating with and I was likewell, I don't like the shirt
that you have on, you know, andthat's extremely reductive,
right, but I was trying to getthem to understand like that's
what we're debating about inpart.
Vanessa (05:52):
Yeah.
Well, clothing to me is justsimply an external demonstration
of who we are on the inside.
You know, when I do trainings,for example, you know I get
people some very basicunderstandings and I've course
out the differences betweensexual orientation and gender
identity and gender expression.
And I talk about how genderexpression is different than the
(06:14):
other two, because genderexpression is about an external
demonstration of who we are.
Justin (06:20):
The other two are on the inside.
Vanessa (06:22):
You know your sexual orientation and your gender
identity are internal, but yourgender expression, the clothing
that you wear, your hairstyle,you know, your jewelry, your
style, whatever it might be.
That's external and otherpeople can see that and because
they can see it, they can makejudgments about.
And that's where indiscrimination, often that it's
the picture is based on visualcues that people take in and
(06:45):
they go and they make judgmentsabout and sometimes those
judgments are positive andsometimes they're not so
positive.
So we need to give people youknow facts and reality and truth
so that they can make informedjudgments as opposed to just
knee jerk reactions, you know,to what somebody may or may not
be hearing.
Because, frankly, what I wear onthe outside, really has nothing
(07:08):
to do with whether or not I'mable to do my work.
It's just simply a reflectionof who I am on the inside.
That's all.
I think if people can view it,you know, from that perspective
and use that kind of context, Ithink it can maybe help us get
past that initial, you know,hump of negativity and move into
(07:29):
some more fertile, you know,soil that can help us, you know,
generate some progress.
Justin (07:35):
Something I heard in what you said kind of looking at
it from another angle is toreject the way that someone's
expressing themselves via, youknow, their clothing, that
outside expression is arejection of them as a human
being and who they are inside.
Vanessa (07:53):
Yeah, no, you're right, and because that's true, I
think we have to be very carefulabout rejecting people because
of who they are is a veryslippery slope.
It's not a good place to be.
It causes all kinds of socialproblems and social rules.
To reject someone because oftheir skin color, you know, or
(08:15):
their age or their sex you knowor their abilities physical,
it's just wrong.
You know, it is when you knowit's a moral and ethical you
know situation And we can chooseto make good ethical decisions
or we can choose to go down therabbit hole of negativity.
(08:39):
And right now our country seemsto be diving headlong down that
rabbit hole and that has medeeply concerned.
One of the things I'm hopingand I've been making some noise
about this recently, I'm hopingthat companies and major
corporations, particularly thosewho claim to be allies you know
(08:59):
, Pride Month is coming up inJune And you see all these
corporations that show up forthe parade, you know, with the
floats and the booths, you knowthe pride celebrations and all
of that kind of thing and I'mthinking to myself you know,
okay, so you're allies and youwant to show up for the Pride
celebration.
That's great.
But right now we need you tospeak up on our behalf and talk
(09:22):
to these elected officials andlet them know that attacking the
LGBTQ community, andparticularly the trans community
right now is simplyunacceptable and it's wrong and
it needs to stop.
We need to reverse that trend.
I mean, there's over 500 billsthat are either pending or that
have recently been passed thatare anti trans in this country
(09:44):
right now, in state housesaround the nation.
And because that's true,companies who claim to be our
allies need to put their moneywhere their mouth is.
I guess is what I'm trying tosay.
Don't show up in June and tellme you're an ally if you're not
willing to speak up and speakout on behalf of my community.
I guess that's my take on that.
Justin (10:06):
Yeah, I'm going to drop one little thing on on on.
So Bud Light.
I'm very curious to see how BudLight handles Pride Month,
considering every prior year,their logo would change to a
rainbow logo, and I'm curiouswhat side of the fence they feel
like being on in June.
We don't have to talk aboutthat, but I do, what I do want
(10:28):
to dig into is that legislation,because what's frightening to
me, and also concerning, is thatothers who identify within the
LGBTQ umbrella aren't asconcerned or outraged at what's
happening to legislation againsttrans individuals, particularly
(10:51):
in Florida and some otherstates, because this is a really
slippery slope that will turninto anti-gay, anti you name it,
right?
This is, they're attacking thesmaller part of that umbrella,
because that's where they canstart to draw a wedge.
Vanessa (11:10):
Well, yeah, and they always go after the low hanging
fruit, which means the mostvulnerable populations and
transgender folks are consideredto be the most vulnerable,
simply because our numbers arenot that huge, and so our
opponents feel as though, ohokay, we can go after them
because they're not in aposition to fight back, and so
that makes us easy pickings, andwe need to disabuse them of
(11:35):
that notion, if we can, becausetrans people are not going away.
We might have to go undergroundin some places, we might have to
do whatever is necessary tosurvive, but we will survive and
we will not go away, and Ithink it's just really critical
(11:55):
that people understand that.
The fact that we are underattack right now does not mean
that we're gonna disappear over,because we aren't.
We will be here long afterthese anti-trans bills have
passed away and gone into thedustbin of history, and I think
it's really important thatpeople know that and be aware of
(12:17):
that.
You can pass laws and you canplay your games and do your
political stunts and all thatkind of stuff, but in the end,
transgender people will still behere, and we will still be
making our contributions and wewill still be the gifts to the
world that I know our communitytruly is.
Justin (12:37):
And along with that, I can't help but think about our
history.
I just think of as a gay manand thinking about the history
of leading to more wideacceptance of gay individuals.
And you look back at Stonewalland it wasn't necessarily the
gay men, it was the transindividuals and the drag queens
(12:58):
that were the ones throwing thebricks and the ones that were
leading the charge.
Vanessa (13:03):
It was Martin Luther King and Sylvia Rivera and those
folks who were leading the.
There wouldn't be modern dayrights movement for our
community to do with out thosefolks.
Justin (13:14):
Yes, and I feel like we need to, out of historical
respect, pay that back as gaymen who have the privilege of
wider acceptance, and I don'tfeel that we have wide, wide
acceptance, but wider acceptance.
Vanessa (13:32):
Yeah, i try, i want to find ways to pay that back.
Justin (13:36):
So hopefully this work does some of that.
Vanessa (13:39):
That'd be great.
What I think we all are in thistogether.
Frankly, I don't say that well,you've got gay men over here and
you've got trans people overhere, I think we're all just
part of a big community and weneed to help each other and do
whatever we can to be supportiveof each other.
And I have never understood, ithas never made any sense to me,
(13:59):
why certain factions within thelarger LGBTQ community are so
adamantly antagonistic towardeach other.
That has never made any senseto me.
We've got a pull together.
Like Benjamin Franklin said, wemust all hang together or most
surely, we will all hangseparate.
So, I think it's critical thatwe come together, and we combine
(14:24):
our efforts and our strengthsand our power, whatever that
might be, to create bettersituations for all of us.
I certainly want to besupportive of my gay and lesbian
and my friends in the communityand I hope that they would want
to be supportive of me andMichael.
Justin (14:41):
As we think about some of this legislation that's been
introduced, what do you see asthe impact of belonging in
organizations in differentcommunities?
Vanessa (14:55):
I think the belonging model can be a strong template
for organizations to adopt andto inculcate and to utilize
throughout the entire strata oftheir organizations, from
C-suite on down to the newestemployee.
I think the belonging, creatingan environment in which
(15:19):
belonging is central can be soincredibly empowering and, in
the process, lead toward greatersuccess for any organization.
Because the more you empowerand equip your people with
knowledge, with information,with tools, resources, whatever
(15:40):
they need to be successful, themore you do that, the more
success you're going to see.
One follows the other.
So, I think that the wholecreating belonging model is
really a great tool to use inthat effort to move toward that
successful scenario that we'dall like to attain.
Justin (16:01):
Thank you, thank you for that.
Vanessa (16:03):
And.
Justin (16:05):
I think, if we look at the acceptance side, I think
there is an imperative there fororganizations to speak out
because, hey, executive team,your people are under attack,
right?
Vanessa (16:22):
That's right.
And I think that if they don'tdo that, then they are letting
down that particular group ofpeople, and if they'll do it for
that group of people, thenthey'll do it for other groups
of people.
And so, it's really a questionof being consistent in terms of
how you apply your values andyour efforts.
Justin (16:41):
And what gets at the leader, gets at the executive
leaders, is that bottom lineright?
And if people are feeling underattack, feel that they're in
danger, they're not going to beshowing up with their best
selves and they're not going tobe productive.
Vanessa (16:56):
Well, let me put it this way If I were living in
Texas right now but if I were, Iwould not feel comfortable as
an out transgender personworking for a corporation in
Texas because of the overtattacks that are coming directly
or aimed directly at thetransgender community by the
(17:17):
Texas government or Florida orany of these other states that
are passing anti- laws.
And if I'm not comfortable and Idon't feel safe and I don't
feel respected, then why would Iwant to stay there?
Why would I want to continue towork for a company in a state
(17:38):
that doesn't respect me, doesn'tprotect me, doesn't appreciate
me?
And that's why I think you andI are so fortunate to live in
states like Illinois andMinnesota that have state
governments that are protectiveof our communities.
Sadly, there are a lot ofstates where people there are
not so fortunate, and so I justthink that we need to make
(18:02):
companies aware that if they'renot supporting their LGBTQ
workers and employees andclientele, if they're not doing
that, then they are potentiallyendangering their ability to be
as successful as they mightotherwise be.
It's that simple.
Justin (18:23):
Yes, yes.
And supporting your employeesis not just changing the color
of your logo for a month.
Vanessa (18:31):
Hello.
I tell companies all the timehey, listen, there's 11 other
months out of the year when youcould be buying pride flags and
having celebrations and doingevents and that kind of thing.
It doesn't have to always be inJune.
I tell companies on June 30,don't fold up the pride flags
and put them in the closet forthe next 11.
It's ok, you can do better thanthat.
(18:54):
It's just really important, Ithink, to continue to let your
LGBTQ people know that you havetheir back and that they matter
and that you are willing to besupportive and that you are
doing what you can to create awork environment that is as
(19:15):
inclusive and as respectful andsafe as possible.
I did a you know, and let mejust digress from that and talk
about safety at work.
I worked with a team in Chicagoa couple of years ago.
We did a survey in thisorganization.
And we did employee surveys andwe did a number of in-person
(19:41):
interviews and we took all thatinformation, analyzed the data
and came up with a number ofdifferent findings and
recommendations and suggestionsfor the organizations, and one
of the things we've learned isthis 49% almost half of the
people who worked in thisorganization said that they did
not feel emotionally orphysically safe at work.
(20:04):
And I'm thinking to myself,that really ought to be a red
flag.
You know, if half of yourpeople don't feel safe at work,
I'd say you've got yourself aproblem here.
So, first thing you need to dois be aware that the problem
exists And, secondly, you needto get serious about addressing
it, and so that's what you knowI've been trying to help them do
ever since is address thosekinds of situations, and that
(20:27):
certainly is the case for peoplewho are LGBTQ organizations.
If you don't feel safe, if youdon't feel respected, you don't
feel welcomed, you know, thenthat's a reflection on the
organization and the culturethat exists there.
Now that can be changed, but ithas to be intentional, and
that's when people contact folkslike me or like you and bring
(20:50):
us in and say, hey, you knowwe've got a situation here that
we don't think is conducive toyou know the success that we
want.
Can you help us change this?
And then you go to work and youdo what you need to do to try
to help them make the changesthat are not only necessary, but
sometimes that are really hard.
(21:11):
It's not, you know, you don'tchange a culture overnight.
Cultures exist for a reason,you know.
They didn't happen overnight.
They're not going to be changedovernight, but they can be
changed.
It's an incremental processthat starts with education and
awareness, and then then youtake steps from there, and so, I
think, feeling safe at work,feeling respected at work,
(21:35):
feeling included at work,feeling valued for who and what
you are and what you bring tothe table and what you have to
offer, all of those things arekey and they're critical, and
the whole, you know, creatingbelonging model, I think, is a
reflection of how you know, weas a society need to think long
and hard about those kinds ofsituations in our institutions,
(22:00):
in our relationships, in ourworkplaces and whatever it is
that we're doing, so that youknow we can live fuller, more
productive, happier healthierlives.
Justin (22:10):
Thank you.
I thank you for that.
And you know, one thing thatyou said that I was thinking
about was you know, if thisorganization you know that you
were talking about after peopledon't feel safe and then we
wonder why nobody wants to comeback to the office.
Well, Vanessa, thank you somuch for joining me today.
(22:34):
What a pleasure.
So I want to make sure that youhave an opportunity to promote
anything like any.
What are you working on rightnow that you want people to hear
about?
And how can we get in touchwith you?
Vanessa (22:52):
It's just www.
vanessasheridan.
wwwvinassaycom.
That's pretty straightforwardand you're welcome to visit that
.
You can find out about my booksthere.
You can contact me through that.
You can learn more about thework that I do, some of the
clients that I've had, that sortof thing.
So you know, feel free to reachout to me if there's something
I can do to help you or yourorganization.
That's the first thing.
Secondly, in terms of what I'mdoing right now, I just feel so
(23:17):
fortunate to have such greatclients for my consulting
business.
I was just in New York not thatlong ago doing a training for a
global site leaders for Pfizerat their World Headquarters in
New York and just had afantastic time talking to these
folks who you know, who arereally smart, very capable.
You know international businesspeople, and we just had the
(23:39):
most wonderful time.
I recently wrote a new HRpolicy for Pfizer about
onboarding transgender employeesto help bring them on onboard.
So Pfizer is making someefforts to, you know, be more
trans, inclusive.
I get to be, you know, a smallpart of that.
(24:00):
So, I'll be traveling aroundthe country later this year to
various sites doing trainingsfor management and frontline
staff, you know in terms oftrans awareness and just new
policy.
That just really so.
I'm excited about that, and I'malso doing a really fun,
interesting work with MarriottInternational to help them
(24:23):
improve their whole intentionalmarketing campaign to the LGBTQ
community.
So there's a lot going on.
I feel, again, really fortunateto be in positions where that's
going on.
I've been working on a new book.
And I don't know if this isever going to come to fruition
or not.
It's been a slow process.
(24:44):
I've been working on it forabout a year now, but it's a
book on personal authenticityand kind of aligns with the
conversation we've had heretoday.
But that's something that I'mcontinuing to learn about and,
as I learn, I like to writebecause it helps me process
(25:04):
things.
And hopefully, that will end upturning into a new book as well
, where this is.
So those are a couple of thethings that I've got going on.
And again, I'm just one of theluckiest trans people on the
planet.
I love what I do, I've beendoing it for a long time and I
just want to keep doing itbecause I know that it makes a
difference.
And, frankly, as I look aroundme, I see this incredible need
(25:26):
for raising awareness and foreducating people, and that's
where I plant my flag and try tomake a difference, and I'll
just keep doing that for as longas I can.
Justin (25:35):
Vanessa, you say you're the luckiest trans person on the
planet, but I think the planetis lucky to have you and the
work that you're doing.
So thank you for all of thenecessary work.
And I want to continue helpingyou in whatever way I can.
Likewise, thank you so much andwe'll see you all again on
(25:57):
another episode.
Hey, Justin here Heads up.
This is part two of a two partepisode.
If you haven't already listenedto the first half, I recommend
you do that first.
And now we pick back up withVanessa.
Many, many years ago, when Iwould deliver a diversity
workshop, there were these casestudies that we would use and
(00:31):
they would be around age orgender and male, female, cis
gender individuals.
The typical stuff that we wouldtalk about, say, 20 years ago
when it comes to diversity.
But there was one case studythat was about transgender
(00:51):
individual in the workplace, andso conversations 20 years ago
about transgender individualswas very different than today,
and so I loved using thatbecause I wanted to challenge
people and get them to thinkdifferently.
And there would just be thesereactions Like if you're talking
about having a female CEO,versus what if we had a
transgender CEO?
You know female CEO?
(01:12):
Oh, of course, you know.
Consciously, I can say yes, weshould absolutely do that.
And then when I would pose whatif we had a transgender CEO?
people would just lose theirlids.
And I'm curious, as you've goneinto organizations and worked
with executives who have kind ofrigid ideas around what is
professional and acceptable.
(01:33):
What are some examples ofconversations you've had?
Vanessa (01:37):
You know, professional and acceptable are loaded terms
And they can mean a lot ofdifferent things to different
people.
It depends on who you'retalking to when you use those
terms.
But I know what you say and Ithink, when you run into
executives who have those who,have that mentality that you
(01:59):
just talked about, that's kindof still locked in 20, 30 years
ago and hasn't really progressedinto the 21st century.
Yet, you know, you have tostart with some real basics, and
one of the things I like to dois to get people to back up, you
know, maybe let down theirguard a little bit, lose some of
(02:21):
their stereotypes and let'sjust talk about realities.
And I give them, you know Ilike to have, well, I guess one
of the things I always suggestis the way to deal with this
issue is to become aware and tobecome educated.
You know, no real progress isgoing to happen until people
raise their awareness level.
And so that's what I spend alot of my time doing is creating
(02:44):
programs and deliveringtrainings and, you know,
seminars and workshops thatpeople can understand and can
access and that can give them abasic framework of understanding
that will allow them to movepast the old gender stereotypes.
You know I said I wasn't goingto spend a lot of time talking
(03:04):
about gender authenticity, but Ithink this might be a good
place to jump in.
Here's my definition of genderauthenticity, and I included
this in my last book genderauthenticity is the right of
every individual to expresstheir orientation and their
identity without fear ofcoercion to conform to social
(03:25):
stereotypes.
So if we can get out from underthat whole coercion piece where
we're forced to conform tosocial stereotypes, if we can
get past that and allow peopleto bring their authentic selves
to work instead of wearing somemask or creating a false persona
or pretending to be someonethey're not, if we can get past
(03:48):
that, what that does is open usup to be our authentic selves
and allow us to accept otherpeople's authenticity as well,
which again takes us to a wholedifferent level in terms of what
we're able to achieve asindividuals and corporate.
And I try to share that withorganizations and say listen, if
(04:08):
we do this, your teamwork isgoing to improve, your internal
branding is going to improve,your overall productivity is
going to improve and, in alllikelihood, your bottom line is
going to improve.
And most organizations get itwhen you start talking about
(04:29):
bottom lines.
So I think it's just aquestion of putting it into
context and helping peopleunderstand that this kind of
thing and raising awareness andeducating ourselves about this
particular phenomenon is goingto be beneficial, because trans
people are here, we're not goingaway.
There are many, manyorganizations that have openly
(04:51):
trans people working in them now, and it's really just a
question of equippingorganizations with the tools and
information and resources theyneed to be prepared to deal
effectively with those folks inworkplace situations.
And that's my job.
That's what I try to do is toprovide that equipping in ways
(05:12):
that are meaningful andaccessible and useful.
Justin (05:14):
I couldn't help but think of RuPaul's quote of we're
all born naked and the rest isdrag Yeah.
Vanessa (05:24):
To a certain degree, that's true, it's, i think of.
Justin (05:29):
You know it's part of gender expression is just the
clothes that we wear.
Vanessa (05:34):
Yes, of course.
Justin (05:36):
And and you know I would there was someone that I was
debating with and I was likewell, I don't like the shirt
that you have on, you know, andthat's extremely reductive,
right, but I was trying to getthem to understand like that's
what we're debating about inpart.
Vanessa (05:52):
Yeah.
Well, clothing to me is justsimply an external demonstration
of who we are on the inside.
You know, when I do trainings,for example, you know I get
people some very basicunderstandings and I've course
out the differences betweensexual orientation and gender
identity and gender expression.
And I talk about how genderexpression is different than the
(06:14):
other two, because genderexpression is about an external
demonstration of who we are.
Justin (06:20):
The other two are on the inside.
Vanessa (06:22):
You know your sexual orientation and your gender
identity are internal, but yourgender expression, the clothing
that you wear, your hairstyle,you know, your jewelry, your
style, whatever it might be.
That's external and otherpeople can see that and because
they can see it, they can makejudgments about.
And that's where indiscrimination, often that it's
the picture is based on visualcues that people take in and
(06:45):
they go and they make judgmentsabout and sometimes those
judgments are positive andsometimes they're not so
positive.
So we need to give people youknow facts and reality and truth
so that they can make informedjudgments as opposed to just
knee jerk reactions, you know,to what somebody may or may not
be hearing.
Because, frankly, what I wear onthe outside, really has nothing
(07:08):
to do with whether or not I'mable to do my work.
It's just simply a reflectionof who I am on the inside.
That's all.
I think if people can view it,you know, from that perspective
and use that kind of context, Ithink it can maybe help us get
past that initial, you know,hump of negativity and move into
(07:29):
some more fertile, you know,soil that can help us, you know,
generate some progress.
Justin (07:35):
Something I heard in what you said kind of looking at
it from another angle is toreject the way that someone's
expressing themselves via, youknow, their clothing, that
outside expression is arejection of them as a human
being and who they are inside.
Vanessa (07:53):
Yeah, no, you're right, and because that's true, I
think we have to be very carefulabout rejecting people because
of who they are is a veryslippery slope.
It's not a good place to be.
It causes all kinds of socialproblems and social rules.
To reject someone because oftheir skin color, you know, or
(08:15):
their age or their sex you knowor their abilities physical,
it's just wrong.
You know, it is when you knowit's a moral and ethical you
know situation And we can chooseto make good ethical decisions
or we can choose to go down therabbit hole of negativity.
(08:39):
And right now our country seemsto be diving headlong down that
rabbit hole and that has medeeply concerned.
One of the things I'm hopingand I've been making some noise
about this recently, I'm hopingthat companies and major
corporations, particularly thosewho claim to be allies you know
(08:59):
, Pride Month is coming up inJune And you see all these
corporations that show up forthe parade, you know, with the
floats and the booths, you knowthe pride celebrations and all
of that kind of thing and I'mthinking to myself you know,
okay, so you're allies and youwant to show up for the Pride
celebration.
That's great.
But right now we need you tospeak up on our behalf and talk
(09:22):
to these elected officials andlet them know that attacking the
LGBTQ community, andparticularly the trans community
right now is simplyunacceptable and it's wrong and
it needs to stop.
We need to reverse that trend.
I mean, there's over 500 billsthat are either pending or that
have recently been passed thatare anti trans in this country
(09:44):
right now, in state housesaround the nation.
And because that's true,companies who claim to be our
allies need to put their moneywhere their mouth is.
I guess is what I'm trying tosay.
Don't show up in June and tellme you're an ally if you're not
willing to speak up and speakout on behalf of my community.
I guess that's my take on that.
Justin (10:06):
Yeah, I'm going to drop one little thing on on on.
So Bud Light.
I'm very curious to see how BudLight handles Pride Month,
considering every prior year,their logo would change to a
rainbow logo, and I'm curiouswhat side of the fence they feel
like being on in June.
We don't have to talk aboutthat, but I do, what I do want
(10:28):
to dig into is that legislation,because what's frightening to
me, and also concerning, is thatothers who identify within the
LGBTQ umbrella aren't asconcerned or outraged at what's
happening to legislation againsttrans individuals, particularly
(10:51):
in Florida and some otherstates, because this is a really
slippery slope that will turninto anti-gay, anti you name it,
right?
This is, they're attacking thesmaller part of that umbrella,
because that's where they canstart to draw a wedge.
Vanessa (11:10):
Well, yeah, and they always go after the low hanging
fruit, which means the mostvulnerable populations and
transgender folks are consideredto be the most vulnerable,
simply because our numbers arenot that huge, and so our
opponents feel as though, ohokay, we can go after them
because they're not in aposition to fight back, and so
that makes us easy pickings, andwe need to disabuse them of
(11:35):
that notion, if we can, becausetrans people are not going away.
We might have to go undergroundin some places, we might have to
do whatever is necessary tosurvive, but we will survive and
we will not go away, and Ithink it's just really critical
(11:55):
that people understand that.
The fact that we are underattack right now does not mean
that we're gonna disappear over,because we aren't.
We will be here long afterthese anti-trans bills have
passed away and gone into thedustbin of history, and I think
it's really important thatpeople know that and be aware of
(12:17):
that.
You can pass laws and you canplay your games and do your
political stunts and all thatkind of stuff, but in the end,
transgender people will still behere, and we will still be
making our contributions and wewill still be the gifts to the
world that I know our communitytruly is.
Justin (12:37):
And along with that, I can't help but think about our
history.
I just think of as a gay manand thinking about the history
of leading to more wideacceptance of gay individuals.
And you look back at Stonewalland it wasn't necessarily the
gay men, it was the transindividuals and the drag queens
(12:58):
that were the ones throwing thebricks and the ones that were
leading the charge.
Vanessa (13:03):
It was Martin Luther King and Sylvia Rivera and those
folks who were leading the.
There wouldn't be modern dayrights movement for our
community to do with out thosefolks.
Justin (13:14):
Yes, and I feel like we need to, out of historical
respect, pay that back as gaymen who have the privilege of
wider acceptance, and I don'tfeel that we have wide, wide
acceptance, but wider acceptance.
Vanessa (13:32):
Yeah, i try, i want to find ways to pay that back.
Justin (13:36):
So hopefully this work does some of that.
Vanessa (13:39):
That'd be great.
What I think we all are in thistogether.
Frankly, I don't say that well,you've got gay men over here and
you've got trans people overhere, I think we're all just
part of a big community and weneed to help each other and do
whatever we can to be supportiveof each other.
And I have never understood, ithas never made any sense to me,
(13:59):
why certain factions within thelarger LGBTQ community are so
adamantly antagonistic towardeach other.
That has never made any senseto me.
We've got a pull together.
Like Benjamin Franklin said, wemust all hang together or most
surely, we will all hangseparate.
So, I think it's critical thatwe come together, and we combine
(14:24):
our efforts and our strengthsand our power, whatever that
might be, to create bettersituations for all of us.
I certainly want to besupportive of my gay and lesbian
and my friends in the communityand I hope that they would want
to be supportive of me andMichael.
Justin (14:41):
As we think about some of this legislation that's been
introduced, what do you see asthe impact of belonging in
organizations in differentcommunities?
Vanessa (14:55):
I think the belonging model can be a strong template
for organizations to adopt andto inculcate and to utilize
throughout the entire strata oftheir organizations, from
C-suite on down to the newestemployee.
I think the belonging, creatingan environment in which
(15:19):
belonging is central can be soincredibly empowering and, in
the process, lead toward greatersuccess for any organization.
Because the more you empowerand equip your people with
knowledge, with information,with tools, resources, whatever
(15:40):
they need to be successful, themore you do that, the more
success you're going to see.
One follows the other.
So, I think that the wholecreating belonging model is
really a great tool to use inthat effort to move toward that
successful scenario that we'dall like to attain.
Justin (16:01):
Thank you, thank you for that.
Vanessa (16:03):
And.
Justin (16:05):
I think, if we look at the acceptance side, I think
there is an imperative there fororganizations to speak out
because, hey, executive team,your people are under attack,
right?
Vanessa (16:22):
That's right.
And I think that if they don'tdo that, then they are letting
down that particular group ofpeople, and if they'll do it for
that group of people, thenthey'll do it for other groups
of people.
And so, it's really a questionof being consistent in terms of
how you apply your values andyour efforts.
Justin (16:41):
And what gets at the leader, gets at the executive
leaders, is that bottom lineright?
And if people are feeling underattack, feel that they're in
danger, they're not going to beshowing up with their best
selves and they're not going tobe productive.
Vanessa (16:56):
Well, let me put it this way If I were living in
Texas right now but if I were, Iwould not feel comfortable as
an out transgender personworking for a corporation in
Texas because of the overtattacks that are coming directly
or aimed directly at thetransgender community by the
(17:17):
Texas government or Florida orany of these other states that
are passing anti- laws.
And if I'm not comfortable and Idon't feel safe and I don't
feel respected, then why would Iwant to stay there?
Why would I want to continue towork for a company in a state
(17:38):
that doesn't respect me, doesn'tprotect me, doesn't appreciate
me?
And that's why I think you andI are so fortunate to live in
states like Illinois andMinnesota that have state
governments that are protectiveof our communities.
Sadly, there are a lot ofstates where people there are
not so fortunate, and so I justthink that we need to make
(18:02):
companies aware that if they'renot supporting their LGBTQ
workers and employees andclientele, if they're not doing
that, then they are potentiallyendangering their ability to be
as successful as they mightotherwise be.
It's that simple.
Justin (18:23):
Yes, yes.
And supporting your employeesis not just changing the color
of your logo for a month.
Vanessa (18:31):
Hello.
I tell companies all the timehey, listen, there's 11 other
months out of the year when youcould be buying pride flags and
having celebrations and doingevents and that kind of thing.
It doesn't have to always be inJune.
I tell companies on June 30,don't fold up the pride flags
and put them in the closet forthe next 11.
It's ok, you can do better thanthat.
(18:54):
It's just really important, Ithink, to continue to let your
LGBTQ people know that you havetheir back and that they matter
and that you are willing to besupportive and that you are
doing what you can to create awork environment that is as
(19:15):
inclusive and as respectful andsafe as possible.
I did a you know, and let mejust digress from that and talk
about safety at work.
I worked with a team in Chicagoa couple of years ago.
We did a survey in thisorganization.
And we did employee surveys andwe did a number of in-person
(19:41):
interviews and we took all thatinformation, analyzed the data
and came up with a number ofdifferent findings and
recommendations and suggestionsfor the organizations, and one
of the things we've learned isthis 49% almost half of the
people who worked in thisorganization said that they did
not feel emotionally orphysically safe at work.
(20:04):
And I'm thinking to myself,that really ought to be a red
flag.
You know, if half of yourpeople don't feel safe at work,
I'd say you've got yourself aproblem here.
So, first thing you need to dois be aware that the problem
exists And, secondly, you needto get serious about addressing
it, and so that's what you knowI've been trying to help them do
ever since is address thosekinds of situations, and that
(20:27):
certainly is the case for peoplewho are LGBTQ organizations.
If you don't feel safe, if youdon't feel respected, you don't
feel welcomed, you know, thenthat's a reflection on the
organization and the culturethat exists there.
Now that can be changed, but ithas to be intentional, and
that's when people contact folkslike me or like you and bring
(20:50):
us in and say, hey, you knowwe've got a situation here that
we don't think is conducive toyou know the success that we
want.
Can you help us change this?
And then you go to work and youdo what you need to do to try
to help them make the changesthat are not only necessary, but
sometimes that are really hard.
(21:11):
It's not, you know, you don'tchange a culture overnight.
Cultures exist for a reason,you know.
They didn't happen overnight.
They're not going to be changedovernight, but they can be
changed.
It's an incremental processthat starts with education and
awareness, and then then youtake steps from there, and so, I
think, feeling safe at work,feeling respected at work,
(21:35):
feeling included at work,feeling valued for who and what
you are and what you bring tothe table and what you have to
offer, all of those things arekey and they're critical, and
the whole, you know, creatingbelonging model, I think, is a
reflection of how you know, weas a society need to think long
and hard about those kinds ofsituations in our institutions,
(22:00):
in our relationships, in ourworkplaces and whatever it is
that we're doing, so that youknow we can live fuller, more
productive, happier healthierlives.
Justin (22:10):
Thank you.
I thank you for that.
And you know, one thing thatyou said that I was thinking
about was you know, if thisorganization you know that you
were talking about after peopledon't feel safe and then we
wonder why nobody wants to comeback to the office.
Well, Vanessa, thank you somuch for joining me today.
(22:34):
What a pleasure.
So I want to make sure that youhave an opportunity to promote
anything like any.
What are you working on rightnow that you want people to hear
about?
And how can we get in touchwith you?
Vanessa (22:52):
It's just www.
vanessasheridan.
wwwvinassaycom.
That's pretty straightforwardand you're welcome to visit that
.
You can find out about my booksthere.
You can contact me through that.
You can learn more about thework that I do, some of the
clients that I've had, that sortof thing.
So you know, feel free to reachout to me if there's something
I can do to help you or yourorganization.
That's the first thing.
Secondly, in terms of what I'mdoing right now, I just feel so
(23:17):
fortunate to have such greatclients for my consulting
business.
I was just in New York not thatlong ago doing a training for a
global site leaders for Pfizerat their World Headquarters in
New York and just had afantastic time talking to these
folks who you know, who arereally smart, very capable.
You know international businesspeople, and we just had the
(23:39):
most wonderful time.
I recently wrote a new HRpolicy for Pfizer about
onboarding transgender employeesto help bring them on onboard.
So Pfizer is making someefforts to, you know, be more
trans, inclusive.
I get to be, you know, a smallpart of that.
(24:00):
So, I'll be traveling aroundthe country later this year to
various sites doing trainingsfor management and frontline
staff, you know in terms oftrans awareness and just new
policy.
That just really so.
I'm excited about that, and I'malso doing a really fun,
interesting work with MarriottInternational to help them
(24:23):
improve their whole intentionalmarketing campaign to the LGBTQ
community.
So there's a lot going on.
I feel, again, really fortunateto be in positions where that's
going on.
I've been working on a new book.
And I don't know if this isever going to come to fruition
or not.
It's been a slow process.
(24:44):
I've been working on it forabout a year now, but it's a
book on personal authenticityand kind of aligns with the
conversation we've had heretoday.
But that's something that I'mcontinuing to learn about and,
as I learn, I like to writebecause it helps me process
(25:04):
things.
And hopefully, that will end upturning into a new book as well
, where this is.
So those are a couple of thethings that I've got going on.
And again, I'm just one of theluckiest trans people on the
planet.
I love what I do, I've beendoing it for a long time and I
just want to keep doing itbecause I know that it makes a
difference.
And, frankly, as I look aroundme, I see this incredible need
(25:26):
for raising awareness and foreducating people, and that's
where I plant my flag and try tomake a difference, and I'll
just keep doing that for as longas I can.
Justin (25:35):
Vanessa, you say you're the luckiest trans person on the
planet, but I think the planetis lucky to have you and the
work that you're doing.
So thank you for all of thenecessary work.
And I want to continue helpingyou in whatever way I can.
Likewise, thank you so much andwe'll see you all again on
(25:57):
another episode.
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