July 19, 2023 • 46 mins
Let us know what you think of this podcast!
Ever wondered what it truly means to belong and be authentic at work? Let's unpack this together! In our season finale, we bring back Veronica Rivero, Lauren Glazin, and Britt Andreatta where we uncovered the nuances of the Creating Belonging model and its four different areas. Veronica shared her perspective on how authenticity can change and evolve in the workplace, depending on the environment and people around us.
From there, we turned our attention to the Crown Act, unraveling how it’s dismantling discrimination based on hair texture and hairstyle, and its significance in affirming identity. We pondered over the power of representation and how it allows us to channel our authenticity unapologetically. We even heard a powerful anecdote about reclaiming an identity as a widow, illustrating the importance and complexities of individual identities.
In dissecting the relationship between representation and authenticity, we acknowledged the media's critical role in shaping this dynamic and our perceptions. We discussed societal expectations, the struggles we face in trying to conform to them, and the importance of confronting our own battles to truly discover our desires. Stay tuned as we redefine what authenticity and belonging at the workplace mean and continue this incredible journey of discovery and understanding.
You can order your copy of Creating Belonging on Amazon.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Justin (00:05):
Welcome to the season finale of the Creating Belonging
podcast.
Let's make sure I'm looking atthe right camera here.
Hello, hello and welcome.
I've got a few guests from ourpast episodes.
We've got our LinkedIn livegoing and I'm going to see if I
can figure out where to see someQ and A, there go.
(00:26):
See, I've got people chatting,so I'm going to pay attention to
the chat over here and, asyou've got Q&A, would love to
hear any questions that you allhave and we'll answer those.
Bring those into theconversation.
But to get us started, righthere next to me I have the
Creating Belonging model.
I understand that we may havesome people who are new to the
(00:48):
work today joining us on thisLinkedIn live, and so I want to
give a quick overview of theCreating Belonging model, just
so people understand what theheck are we talking about.
So a year ago, I published myfirst book titled Creating
Belonging, and it describes howbelonging is created at the
intersection of authenticity andacceptance.
(01:09):
And so we start with a Venndiagram, like all great models,
and then we move that out into aquadrant where we have
authenticity on the verticalaxis and acceptance on the
horizontal axis, and that givesus four different areas within
this Creating Belonging modelthat we might experience
(01:29):
ourselves being in in thedifferent communities or
workplaces, the different placeswhere we are, and so down in
the lower left-hand corner we'vegot when we're low on
authenticity, when we're low onacceptance that's what we call
that we're in reckless, where weare really not showing up with
much of ourselves and we'rereally not engaging with the
(01:53):
people in that community.
Thing about reckless, it's nota bad place to be.
It is absolutely OK to be inreckless if we need to be there
for safety reasons.
However, ideally we have peoplemoving into belonging when we're
high on authenticity, low onacceptance.
That's what we call overbearing, where we aren't really
appreciating or respectingothers, and it's where I say
(02:17):
privilege lives, where we've gotsome blinders on and our
assumptions about what the restof the world understands.
If we go to the opposite end ofthe spectrum, when we're high
on acceptance and low onauthenticity, it's what I call
minimizing.
This is where we are mutingaspects of ourselves to make
other people comfortable withour presence.
(02:39):
But if we've got the rightbalance of authenticity and
acceptance, we get to move intobelonging, also understanding
that we navigate around thismodel on a regular basis every
day, and so you're not in oneplace all the time in the
different communities you're in.
We move around, but the idealis that we're moving into a
(03:01):
higher place of belonging.
So I have with me today a few ofour podcast guests to just have
a discussion about theirexperiences on the podcast and
bringing some of that into thisbigger conversation and excited
to be doing it live.
So I'm going to go in order ofpodcast episode release, and so
(03:26):
first I'm going to introduceVeronica Rivero.
Veronica Rivero lives here inChicago, and I'm most excited,
Veronica for the restaurant thatyou're opening, because I love
queso.
Veronica do you want to?
just give a 30 second intro?
Veronica (03:42):
Yeah, of course.
Hi, I'm Veronica.
I'm born and raised in Lima,Peru.
I lived all over the US, fromNew York City to most recently,
Chicago, and I am part-time techsales and part-time
interpreter, opening a Tex-Mexrestaurant in the suburbs of
Chicago later this fall.
So follow us chicagotexmexcom.
Justin (04:06):
Yes, I'm excited for queso.
We don't do queso well inChicago, so oh, can't wait for
you to try it.
And then up next we had oursixth episode, which was a
two-parter, with Lauren Glazen,and I love the title of this one
titled Blonde Ambition.
So Blonde Identity.
(04:28):
Sorry, a play on BlondeAmbition.
Blonde Identity, Lauren, wouldyou mind introducing yourself?
Lauren (04:34):
Yeah, both of them work, so it doesn't matter.
Yeah, I'm Lauren.
I am living in New York City,working learning and development
.
Used to work with Justin, andoriginally from the UK, from
London, but in America 10 yearsnow.
And, yeah, happy to be here.
(04:55):
Thank you for including me.
Justin (04:57):
Yeah, thank you, Lauren.
And then our most recent gueston the podcast.
We actually dropped the secondhalf of her episode.
This morning at 7 AM we have DrBritt Andreatta.
Britt, would you like tointroduce yourself?
Britt (05:12):
Yes, thanks, Justin, and lovely to connect with everyone
who's listening today.
I am Britt, I create brainscience-based solutions and I
write books on the brain scienceof success.
So I'm a geek, I love to geekout on all that kind of stuff,
but I'm also in training anddevelopment.
So moving some of those bestpractices into corporations
(05:33):
around the world, and I grew upin Colorado and then moved all
over the United States.
I went to many different highschools and landed and am
currently in California.
Justin (05:46):
Awesome.
Thank you, Britt.
Thank you, and, by the way, Idon't know if you noticed, I
have your books behind me nextto my book.
Britt (05:53):
Thank you.
Justin (05:56):
So I guess, to get us started, I want to dive right in
and I'm just curious, sinceyour episodes have been released
.
I'm curious what conversationsyou've had with folks.
Veronica, you have the mostlisteners on your podcast, so
I'll bet you had someconversations since it was
released.
(06:16):
What are some of those thingsthat have come up?
Veronica (06:20):
Yes, I think overall, something that came up is just
bringing your authentic self atwork and how that varies on,
number one, where you work, whoyou work with and if you work
for a corporate or non-profit,and also something along the
lines of redefiningprofessionalism.
I think that when I graduatedcollege over 15 years ago, my
(06:43):
first job being professional,what does it mean?
It's wearing a suit, getting myhair straightened up and proper
makeup and skirt length and allthat.
And now that has changed alittle bit, now that the first
half of my career was incorporate, second half more tech
or small startups and that hasevolved.
(07:04):
I feel like I'm morecomfortable personally and some
of the friends and people thatlistened to the episode, talked
to me about hey, I'm in softwaresales I just love.
I've always wanted to dye myhair blue and I'm going to dye
my hair blue and people don'tcare in tech because I'm doing
fantastic work.
Or I'm going to put my prideflag because this is who I am on
my desk and represent myself,or just being able to wear what
(07:28):
you want, also follow yourcompany's guidelines, at the
same time also being able to beyour authentic self and help
others, be more vulnerable andhelp others do the same.
Inspire others to bring theirauthentic selves to work and
redefine what being aprofessional means.
Justin (07:46):
Yeah, the title of Veronica's episode was the Pink
Blazer.
We talked about wearing thePink Blazer at work, which I
love and that I think expressionauthenticity, expression, the
way that we dress has come up inseveral conversations.
When it comes to genderidentity, we spoke with Vanessa
(08:07):
Sheridan about her journey as atrans individual and how
clothing becomes a part of ouridentity, and we also talked
about hair with Kendra, becausenot everyone has typical
(08:29):
straight hair.
Some people have differenttextures of hair but quote,
professional standards aren'talways cognizant of that.
I'm curious, Lauren or Britt,if you have anything to add and
into that.
Britt (08:45):
Well, I was going to say you know, the Crown Act is
really important because for solong people of color have really
been ostracized for hairtexture and hairstyle and I
can't think of anything moredemeaning every day than knowing
that how God made you is notacceptable, like, is not okay,
and having to spend a lot oftime and energy and money on
(09:05):
that and even face criticism andeven punishment for not
adhering to those standards.
So I think everyone needs to bepaying attention to the Crown
Act and what it does to even theplaying field and try to undo
some of that discrimination.
So I'm glad you brought that upbecause I think we all need to
be able to show up as we reallyare.
(09:26):
And you know, speaking as awhite woman, I have so much
privilege around that I don'thave to think about that and yet
so many people.
It's a daily part of how theyhave to armor up to go into work
and do their jobs.
Justin (09:40):
Yeah, you know, Britt, some people, some listeners,
might not be familiar with theCrown Act.
Do you have like a 30 second,30 second synopsis of what that
is?
Britt (09:49):
It's legislation, so I don't have all the details on it
, but it's basically legislationthat that says physical
appearance, and particularlyhair, can not be used to
discriminate you.
So it's really trying to undothe unspoken discrimination or
often, very times, blatantdiscrimination that is done
(10:10):
around hair texture andhairstyle.
I'm wondering, Veronica orLauren, if you know a little bit
more about it.
I've been following it enoughto know that it's super
important but, like I don't knowsome of the specific details of
it, but I know it's been, it'sbeen moving through the
legislation process.
Lauren (10:29):
No, I.
You've been teaching me thelast five minutes about it, so I
appreciate that.
Justin (10:37):
Yeah, I'm.
I'm not familiar with thateither, so I'm glad you brought
it up because it's definitelysomething to pay attention to.
Well, speaking of hair, TheBlonde Identity, I'm curious,
your thoughts on this kind ofrepresentation of, you know,
appearance?
Lauren (10:58):
Yeah, it's, it's a really good question and it's
something that, again, I used tothink about a lot, especially
the company that we workedtogether in Justin was much more
buttoned up and then Itransitioned to, you know, work
in tech companies and I felt somuch more myself being able to
(11:21):
dress more sort of likeandrogynous or just like however
, however, I wanted to show upthat .
So it was, it's,it's interesting and actually
like there's comments that whereI grew up in England everyone
wears a school uniform.
It's mandatory.
There's no like it's very likeAmerica and like TV show for us
(11:45):
to be like, oh, like, kids arenot wearing uniforms, and so
everywhere in the UK I mean mostof Europe, honestly but I wore
a, yeah, same in Peru, yeah.
I wore a school uniform everysingle day of my life, and now I
talk to my wife about it and wehave like discussions about all
the time about like where,where will our kids go to school
(12:07):
, and like things like that.
And I'm adamant, I don't wantthem to wear school uniforms
because I feel like it sucks somuch my personality out of me.
And but then there's obviouslythose like the coin, where you
know, like how the kids dressand is it appropriate and things
like that.
But I'm a bit of a free spiritso I really I like being able to
(12:30):
sort of dress and wear my hair.
Like you know, this is notparticularly professional.
I was in the office thismorning and like it's all good.
So, and to answer the otherquestion, Justin, about like
what conversations have we beenhaving it's funny I a few of my
friends have been listening tothe podcast and they're like
whoa, like I didn't know thatand so I don't know the
(12:52):
conversations that I've beenhaving a more around people that
I've like pushed to the podcastand like learning you know more
about me and it's interestingto like see what people pick up
to pick up on and the thingsthat maybe I don't even like
bother to share because, like Ithink they're like mundane but
actually people find theminteresting.
So that's been cool to see howthat unfolds.
Justin (13:16):
Yeah, I love, I love the vulnerability that
we've been having in theconversations, because I think
it's important to have that youknow, ability to share, you know
just all the various aspects ofour identity and even the ones
that the people we interact withon a regular basis, things that
they may not know, and it makesme think of.
(13:38):
I want to share a story.
A couple of weeks ago, I wasspeaking at a conference in
Raleigh and on creatingbelonging, and one of the
participants, who you know worksin our realm of talent
development and you know is usedto having those conversations
around authenticity and beingopen and being vulnerable, and
(14:02):
she said that she had this bigaha moment when there was an
individual that she was in a youknow, a classroom with and he
said that he was a younger widowlike early twenties widow and
it made her realize.
(14:23):
She thought about that and sherealized that she never talked
about the fact that she was awidow because she didn't want to
give that kind of you know,bring up a potentially negative
subject for others or makeothers feel bad, and so she
started to think about leaninginto that and reclaiming that as
(14:45):
an identity because it still issomething that's a part of her.
I'm curious if that storysparks anything for anyone.
Britt (14:55):
I mean for me.
Yeah, I mean I think about somany of us have have delved into
the world of diversity andinclusion, training and this
idea of the iceberg right?
Like that.
there's certain parts of ouridentity that people can see
about us, and then there's theparts of our identity that we
share, and then there's a wholebunch.
Most of our identity is underthe waterline, right.
All these things that we'velived through being a child
(15:16):
divorce, what your economicstatus was, what your native
language was, was Do do you havea mental or physical challenge
that you live through or workwith?
Are you a survivor of something?
I mean there's so many piecesof our identity that we don't
share or can't share, or toobusy to share, or there's
consequences for sharing right,and I always think about.
(15:38):
I remember my own journey around, just went off to college
totally privileged white kid andthen learned a lot of stuff and
had a lot of those blinderstaken off and I know for myself.
remember someone saying I said, oh, I don't know how many, I
don't know any gay people in mylife.
This was before I evenidentified as bisexuals, even
identify myself as one.
(15:58):
But I remember this personsaying, no, you do you actually
have a lot of gay people in yourlife.
You just haven't let them knowthat you're safe to be around
yet, they don't know that you'resafe to come out to yet, and
that really shifted myperspective around.
Oh, if I'm going to, you know,understand the role that
(16:19):
privilege has, it also meansthat people will not be their
authentic selves around meunless I am consistently and
persistently giving signs that Ihave some awareness around this
.
And it really shifted how Italked about things and how I
used my language to createopenings for other people to see
(16:39):
a little bit more of who I amand also to create that sense of
safety that maybe they couldshare more with me.
And sure enough, once I didthat, it was amazing how many
people in my life were gay orwho had experienced different
things, or people of color who,seeing those markers in my
language and behavior, felt morecomfortable telling me the
(17:00):
authentic truth of their livesand their experiences.
So I think that this wholejourney is is our own journey
around our own identity, butit's also around seeing how and
where we are safe to bebecause not just ski to be
vulnerable if there's not someindicator of safety.
People have died for not, youknow, for sharing who they
(17:23):
authentically are, and so Ithink that level of like we
always need to be mindful of.
That's the reality.
People get hurt, people arekilled around some of these
topics.
Justin (17:37):
It's also important to recognize that being able to not
disclose parts of our identityis also privilege, right,
because there are others whohave marginalized identities
that they're, they can't hidethem.
You know, if we think aboutrace, disability, right, like
just someone's mere presencesays something about them.
(18:04):
Veronica, I'm curious if youhave any thoughts on that.
Veronica (18:07):
Yeah, I think actually just to offer a little side of
the coin for what Lauren saidabout the uniforms, I think that
for me personally, growing upin an all girls Catholic school,
extremely conservative, to yourpoint bread about like I didn't
know any of my friends you knowthey were gay or not, but I
think the uniform, the reasonwhy I like that, was because out
(18:29):
of the bad we were all the samein the way of like, hey, even
if you are richer or poor,middle, we all wear the same
uniform.
We're all come in in in a in away I was.
I would love to see that, likewhen I'm interviewing for jobs
or in different ways, it's like,oh no, the first thing people
here is my accent.
Or like, oh, she's not going tobe doing this or that.
(18:50):
Instead of having thatunconscious bias in a way, I
think that's kind of like afirst step of like we're all
starting from an equal playingfield but also, you know, in
small pockets of groups beingable to create that open
environment of belonging.
Right, I'm telling some of myfriends like hey, you know I'm
I'm struggling with these things.
Or like when someone one of mygirlfriends came out and saying
(19:12):
that you know, I like girls andI'm like, okay, that's great,
I'm here for you.
That doesn't affect how I feelabout you or anything about our
friendship.
So what, I'm new to this, youknow because of where we grew up
.
But educate me, teach me, let'stalk about it and your secret
safe with me until you're ready.
So so kind of started from thatsame playing field, but taking
(19:32):
it to the next level, and I meanI do like you know wearing my
blazer and all that but incertain situations I do feel
like starting from the sameplaying field just helps with
that unconscious bias.
And then you got to build thosesmaller pockets of groups where
you can be vulnerable and helpothers also open up about
themselves and the ways theythink and how we can help each
(19:52):
other.
Justin (19:55):
Yeah, there's an interesting balance there of how
do we level the playing field.
At the same time, how do welean into our authenticity.
And it makes me think of one ofthe biggest themes that and I
think we've been edging aroundthis a little bit one of the
biggest themes that came out ofmany of the discussions in the
podcast was the concept ofrepresentation, because I think
(20:20):
that when the more we haverepresentation of various
identities, it does start to, Ihate this word, but normalize
those identities in a way thatstarts to level the playing
field.
And so I want to dive into thattopic a little bit and I'm
curious if any of you have anexample and maybe we've already
(20:41):
talked about it, so you knowanother example of
representation, howrepresentation has helped you
lean into your authenticity.
Lauren (20:54):
I think I have ways where it's helped and ways where
, like, obviously lack of it is,you know, hindered.
I think I talk about this a lotand actually, as I work in L
and D on the side, I'm alsobecoming a therapist and
marriage and family therapist,so the work kind of intertwines
there and it's so interesting tosee sort of behavioral science
(21:16):
in that way and and how systemicyou know how family systems
work and then corporate systemswork and all of the things that
come with it.
But for me, like, as I've beenthinking about this and I think
about me and my wife and youknow, if we start a family and
things like that and like what,what lesbians like do I see that
(21:40):
have a family and sort of likethe life, that heteronormative
like standards shoot, you know,shoot to, to like aim towards
and like you know what I mean bythat is we.
This is a prettyheteronormative world and I can
think of like Ellen DeGeneresmaybe, or like, like Abby
(22:03):
Wambach and Glennon Doyle, but Idon't have thousands of
examples of like people who aredoing the thing that like we're
trying to do and there's notlike years of, you know,
hundreds of years of differentpeople.
You know, the world's beenaround for what 10,000 years or
something and we're living inthe last eight years where gay
(22:24):
marriage is legal and so it's.
It's a really interesting timefor us.
It feels like yeah, yeah, likewhatever it's been legal and
like that fights over orwhatever.
But it's just even eight yearsout of like thousands of years
and I I find representationreally important and actually I
don't recall if I mentioned this.
(22:46):
But, Justin, you and I had aconversation.
I was struggling to come outwhen, when you became my boss
and people at work did not know,and we had a conversation, and
you looked at me and you werelike honey, like I can never go
back into the closet, like I,you know, like I just I couldn't
, I couldn't pretend, even if mylife like depended on it, and I
(23:06):
was like I hope someday to getto that point where like and I
say that I rip off your line,Justin, I take it all the time
because I'm like I'm now thatpoint where I'm like I am so gay
like I don't even like I wantto like have uncomfortable
conversations, like you know,bring it on and and I'm not
(23:28):
obnoxious about it anymore.
I've written that in a bit,Justin, in the last four years,
but like it's more so.
Like, yeah, just in a helpfulway, like trying to represent
the things that I know, you know, I know about.
So other people feel comfortand that's.
That's all we can really do, Ithink.
(23:49):
So that was my soapbox.
Britt (23:53):
I want to add to that.
Being in work, where I amalways creating presentations
for other people, I always thinka lot about representation in
things that we create.
So, for example, I'm veryintentional every time I give a
keynote speech or in my books isthat I am making sure that the
photos that I choose are reallyrepresentative, and I'll
(24:17):
actually go back and like makesure, do I have people of
different ages, have I reallyrepresented different
backgrounds and life experiences?
And I think it's reallyimportant.
And I just did a talk for amajor, major global financial
company just a couple months agoand one of the members of the
audience looked me up andemailed me and said thank you so
(24:38):
much for having a picture of awoman in the headscarf in your
deck.
She said it's the first time Ifelt myself represented.
And she said for me, theheadscarf is a very important
symbol of my identity.
I am very proud of it.
I know people have judgmentaround it, but I loved the way
that I could see myself in yourpresentation and the fact that
it moved her to the point whereshe looked me up and sent me an
(25:00):
email afterwards, just confirmedthat we're all hungering to be
seen and when someone takes thetime to make sure that you know
that there's representation.
Now the other thing that wehave to caution against is it
can't be fake representation,right?
We can't have all these amazingphotos on the company website
and nobody actually looks likethat in the company, right?
(25:20):
So it's a commitment to thereality of representing the real
diversity of all this beautifulhumanity, both in our workers
and our customers and ourexecutives.
You know we've got a long wayto go in the C suite to have
equal representation.
I think it really matters forall of us and we also play a
(25:44):
role in creating that for otherpeople, in whatever ways that we
work or live in our in ourneighborhoods.
Veronica (25:51):
Absolutely.
I think something I like to addto that is that whenever you
know I've hired people in thepast and working for corporate
or just even being the onlyLatina or woman in the group,
because in tech we also don'thave many women or Latinas.
I like to just start, you know,by pre phrasing like let's
before you look at this resumeis before you get anything or
(26:12):
don't understand a name.
Let's seek to understand, notto judge, you know.
Or sometimes I mean I've donethis experiment in the past
where, like I, just take out thenames right in the resumes and
just give them based on theirexperience, and so they can add
you know, we all haveunconscious biases that we're
all working on so they can justbase on the experience, the
(26:33):
different things, commonalitiesor work you know, so that have
that playing field, kind of likewearing that uniform again, but
also go from there and maybetalk to someone that you've
never talked to before, or justtry to expand your thinking and
in the way you approach yourview of the world and your own
job.
Justin (26:53):
Thank you.
Thank you.
One thing for for our livelisteners, I am paying attention
to chat over here, so if youhave any questions, feel free to
pop those in and we'll bringthat into the conversation.
But I wanted to summarize onething that I heard and this came
, I think, really from bothLauren and Britt was the
(27:16):
understanding of the impact thatyou can have on others in
representation that may seeminconsequential to you, right,
like Lauren, I remember sittingand having that conversation,
but I don't remember that quote.
I love that you do and you know,for, for Britt, what seems, you
(27:37):
know, while intentional, youhad such an impact on someone.
And so just, I think, keeping inmind that we all have elements
where we can infuse differenttypes of representation into our
interactions with people,keeping that, keeping that, you
(27:59):
know, front of mind to help them.
I mean, I know that and I doknow, Lauren, that you know,
back then I was absolutely likemy mission was I'm out of the
closet and I'm never going backin.
Because you know, as that thestory that I start a lot of
things with.
You know, I once had a boss whosaid you know, you're too open
(28:20):
with your sexuality, when Iwasn't actually at all at the
time, and so I never want to bein that situation again, and I
know that being representationothers will do that.
I want to transition a littlebit to talk about the
relationship then betweenrepresentation and authenticity,
(28:42):
and I'm curious if you have anythoughts about kind of the the
you know, because the this is abig theme that's come up.
Representation and authenticity, I think, create a virtuous
cycle.
I'm just curious what yourthoughts are.
Britt (29:03):
I absolutely agree and I'm reminded of Dr B Brown's
work on vulnerability and shameand courage and she talks about
vulnerability is our greatestmeasure of courage.
Right, because when we engagein an act of vulnerability, it's
a risk.
We are, we are openingourselves up for potential
judgment, potentialdiscrimination, potential
(29:23):
positive experiences, but wedon't necessarily know how it's
going to turn out right.
And and yet it's, it's such acourageous act and I think when
I think about representation,what I see is a lot of really
courageous people who arewilling to go first, even though
super risky.
So I think about the Ellenstory.
You know, Ellen came outpublicly.
(29:44):
It did not go well, like shelost her job, she lost her
following, she received deaththreats, like she is an example
of someone who really broke thatbarrier and now, I think, is
seen as the hero she always wasall along, but at the same time
it was very damaging.
So I think a lot of people whosaw what happened to her said
(30:05):
I'm going to stay in the closeta little bit longer that that
didn't go well and at the sametime, her, along with many other
brave souls who were, who weretaking the risk to come out, now
create an environment where wehave a lot more representation
in media.
I think media plays asignificant role.
I think TV producers and movieproducers have some of the most
(30:26):
powerful opportunities to showus reality and then make people
more comfortable.
I think about now how many men Isee kissing in TV shows and
movies and that would have neverbeen seen 10 years ago.
And, yeah, some people aregoing to be super uncomfortable
with it because it's the firsttime they've ever seen it.
But after you see a few you'relike, okay, a kiss is a kiss,
(30:47):
whatever, and we can reallydesensitize people to some of
their, their judgments orbeliefs that they have through
representation.
So representation is super,super powerful both ways.
We also over represent AfricanAmericans in media as criminals
and so if you, if and there'sstudies on this in terms of like
, how they represent 90 per I'mmaking this statistic up, but
(31:11):
it's a really high number aroundAfrican actors, african
American actors or black actors,and how they are put in roles
that have a criminal nature tothem, and then that feeds the
stereotype that people perceivewhen they consume that media.
So we have to be super carefulwith representation because it
can be helpful or it can behurtful.
Justin (31:31):
Yeah yeah sorry, Lauren.
Lauren (31:34):
And I was just going to say that I think it's.
I think it's really hard to beauthentic without representing
something.
Like, I don't even know if it'salways like so front of mind
for people to be.
(31:55):
You know, I'm just talkingabout like everyday life, right.
When I'm standing up there, I'mgiving a training to people and
I'm saying things or I'mlistening in a certain way or
asking certain questions likethis, and I'm being authentic.
I feel like I'm probablyrepresenting different, you know
different things, or people areusing their own perspective to
(32:18):
sort of figure out what, youknow, what that means for them.
Because it's sort of personal,isn't it, like, if I see you
being authentic Justin, that tome could represent like, you're
an American and you're being youknow.
But for you, you think well I'mcoming across like as a man and
(32:39):
being, I'm representing likemen that they can listen or
whatever.
So I don't know, I think it'slike.
I think it's definitely like anintrospective understanding and
like sometimes I think I'mbeing super authentic and
someone's like what you werelike acting up then and I'm like
what's I?
So I don't know, I can get inmy own head and go for days on
(33:02):
the spiral.
But yeah, hopefully I'm makingsome sense.
Justin (33:07):
I think there's part of it, you know I go back to.
You know the, there's a storythat I tell about an executive
that I worked with that didn'tlike the idea of authenticity,
because he would say well, ifsomeone's an asshole, then that
just gives them permission to beauthentically an asshole.
But I don't think that's whatauthenticity is.
I think that authenticityshould be much more intentional,
(33:29):
like we do just show up rightas ourselves every day, some
parts good, some parts not sogood.
For me, the idea ofauthenticity is really
understanding who do we want toshow up as in the world and
being a little more intentionalwith that.
Because there is, you know,there are probably things that
(33:52):
I'm representing on a dailybasis, intentionally and
unintentionally, and some thatyou know I may not want to show
up as unintentionally.
Yeah, it's, I think there's.
I want to marry theintentionality into authenticity
.
Veronica (34:11):
I think it's a balance which we're all trying to
figure out, like like, Lauren,you said sometimes.
You know, when I first moved tothe US, I was 18 and I was
trying to get rid of thisaccident because I'm such a
perfectionist, right.
So I'm like why can I speakperfect English?
I would meet people at collegeand our name, which I was part
of, the 1% not 1% rich, 1%Hispanic and I was, you know
(34:32):
they will be like I love youraccent.
I would be like, oh, I hate it.
Okay.
And then I realized, like, so Ishift my mindset on that and
then made it my mission to helpothers that are also immigrants
or international students tolike now, when I meet someone
that has an accent and goesthrough the same things that I
go through, I help them withframe like hey and if I meet
(34:54):
someone that has an accent,automatically think that they
speak maybe another language orthey're just smart or they have
world experience, right?
So I try to help them see itthat way, so that they're also
proud of where they came fromand from their accent.
But also, sometimes we canoverdo it, right, I can go to
just like hey, Latinos, justLatino women, and we all are,
haha, rara.
But guess what?
We're still underrepresented inthe C suite in tech, not just
(35:17):
Latinos, you know, AfricanAmericans, LGBTQ world
underrepresented in the C suite.
So we still got to you know,whole leadership accountable for
find those allies thatunderstand what we're going
through but also want tochampion.
Not just us being surrounded byothers that are just like us,
right like we got to help eachother, elevate each other and
(35:38):
fight that balance of being ourauthentic self, but also help
others that are not like usunderstand why it's important to
bring that representation.
Justin (35:48):
And, Veronica, you make me think of another concept that
came up that I want to talkabout, because you had mentioned
and I think you talked aboutthis in your original episode to
which was, you know, when youmove to the states, you were
really trying to diminish youraccent and then, over time, you
kind of grew into your ownacceptance and comfort with it
(36:12):
and realizing that you know itis a part of you that you don't
want to be ashamed of.
And so the that leads me intothinking about some of the
conversations that I've hadaround society's expectations of
us and how we, you know, try toget ourselves to fit into those
(36:33):
expectations, and essentiallywhat we're talking about is
minimizing right.
So how are we kind of pullingin our own authenticity to be
what other people want, or whatwe're told other people want?
What thoughts do you have onthat?
Britt (36:55):
I mean you and I spent a good chunk of our podcast
talking about just my journey asbeing a girl and then a woman
and being socialized reallyearly on that my body would be
sexualized whether I wanted itto be or not.
And all the message I'vereceived around needing to dress
to attract a man and, at thesame time, be careful and always
(37:20):
check the backseat of your car,and it's always this
double-edged sword of the goalis to be sexual and attract
someone, but don't do it toomuch or else you're going to get
a bunch of bad stuff happen toyou and it's very confusing.
It's a very confusing journeyaround that.
So I think that who you'resupposed to be, to whom and when
(37:42):
can sometimes be a movingtarget, and the very thing that
is complimented is turned aroundand used to attack.
And I think that and I justhave that experience around
gender I know that racialidentity and sexual orientation
and all these other aspects ofidentity are even doubly
confusing.
So just I'm struck by we allgrow up being told by people
(38:07):
around us how we should be andwhat the pros and cons are of
that, and then we have our livedexperiences and then we've got
media.
It's very confusing and it'shard to unlearn that stuff, and
I shared with Justin that I findmyself thinking in my head
things that my mom said to methat when I hear them in my head
I go, oh my God, because I havea daughter now, and I find
(38:28):
myself wanting to pass on thosemessages.
And then I'm like, wait, no,that's not a message I want to
pass on, but it's amazing howquickly that voice is in my head
.
Men won't like that, don't dothat, because that men will be
threatened by it.
And it's just kind of.
It's scary the level ofbrainwashing you have to
intentionally be aware of sothat you don't pass it on
(38:49):
unconsciously.
Justin (38:52):
You make me think of a TikTok I just saw yesterday that
was of like.
You know, this mock thing oflike mothers in the 70s having a
meeting and talking about whatare all the lies they can tell
their children to to scare them.
That very much shaped us as GenX and millennials.
Well, Lauren, I'm going to pickon you because I know I can.
(39:18):
When it comes to societalexpectations, I know one of the
things that we talked about andit was almost this trite
statement that I said was youknow how you came to the States
to find your freedom?
In that I assume there are somesocietal expectations that you
may have been escaping, or youknow?
(39:38):
I don't know.
I don't want to put words inyour mouth.
I'm curious you know what yourthoughts are on that and your
societal expectations, and thenhow that you know your
identities?
Lauren (39:50):
Yeah, I think, I don't know.
I think the societalexpectations cross borders, so I
may be trying to like escapefrom it in some ways, from
England, and being like in likea pretty tight knit Jewish
community where things areexpected of you at certain ages
and you know anything other thanthat is deemed like not
(40:12):
successful pretty much.
And still I find myself havingthese conversations with my
parents where or you know otherparents where they're like they
just you know like success islike being married to someone of
the opposite sex, maybe of thesame sex now, and maybe that's
that's like entered theconversation like some kids,
(40:33):
like a good job, owning a house.
I'm just like I don't know ifthat's how I define success at
this point.
And it can be like prettylonely because like when your
whole family or like when yourwhole community thinks that like
that's what success is, you canfeel like kind of crazy and
thinking like well, maybe Idon't want to be in a marriage
(40:53):
with just two people or maybe Idon't want to be, you know,
maybe I never want to own ahouse, or maybe you know I want
to move every five years orsomething, and it's like
anything outside of like wasdeemed society societally, you
know, successful is can bepretty isolating, so I wonder
(41:19):
how much society pushes us onthe journey, you know, on, like,
like a lazy river.
It just like it just makes usdo the things that everyone else
does.
And yeah, I don't know, I thinkthat, like the therapy school
and like the L and D staff, andjust having to like face my own
demons and battles and comingout, and things like that, they
(41:42):
just make you think like, whatdo you really want?
And I don't know.
Does anyone know?
Like, like, does anyone havethe answers?
So I don't know.
Veronica (41:55):
Yeah, I think you brought up a good point on.
You know, everyone has theirown definition of success, right
?
And I think we all grew up withfor me too, you know, Latina,
you gotta be a housewife and getmarried by 25 and all that.
I was like 25, I don't evenknow what I want to do with my
life at that age.
And I was living in New YorkCity at the time and I think
this is why I love big citiestoo, because they're a little
(42:15):
bit more open, not where we allwould love to be.
But also I saw people that looklike me, that I saw
representation in my food andcertain let's see level
executive and people from allbackgrounds and I learned so
much so I did love that.
But also like, hey, I don'twant a house, some people want
the white picket fence, otherswant the white picket penthouse.
(42:35):
You know, like it's, it's whatyou want, it's different, and
some people want kids, so theydon't.
I mean, there's always going tobe, unfortunately, people that
will judge us if we don't fitwithin their mold.
But again, just trying tounderstand and maybe just coming
up front and saying, hey, thisis my definition of success.
It might not be yours, but I'mreally happy who I am, what I'm
(42:56):
doing, and hopefully you can behappy for me and for others that
have chosen this path as well.
Justin (43:02):
Thank you.
Well, so I'm just looking atthe time and I know that this is
eventually going to turn into apodcast that people are going
to listen to and will probablyjust release this whole chunk as
one.
So I want to start to wrap upthe conversation.
I don't see any questionscoming in in the chat online,
and so I want to thank everyonefor your participation in the
(43:28):
Creating Belonging podcast thisseason.
It was very much an experimentin can I launch a podcast?
I did Today was an experimentin can I do a LinkedIn live?
The answer is yes, so I want tothank you all, but I want to
just see if anyone has anyclosing thoughts or words they
(43:50):
want to share.
Lauren (43:53):
No, I'm proud of you.
I think this was awesome andwhat a great experiment, and it
was successful in my eyes.
Justin (44:00):
So thank you, Lauren.
Britt (44:03):
I want to say that I really value the model you
created.
I think it just has there'ssuch a depth and richness there
that really allows theseconversations to come forward in
a non-threatening, exploratoryway, and I think everybody can
find themselves on the model andalso see that they've been in
all four quadrants at varioustimes around different parts of
(44:25):
their identity.
So if folks haven't read thebook yet, I encourage you to
pick it up.
I think it's really great and Ithink it's a great way to open
up some of these conversationswith people at work and in your
family and just start to kind ofexplore how are each of us on
that model and how do we feellike we are authentic in our
(44:45):
lives and where are we maybemissing some of that?
I think that's a great thingfor us all to explore.
Veronica (44:51):
Yes, thank you, Justine.
Thank you first of all forcreating a safe space for us to
be ourselves, to share ourstories, but also for creating
your model.
I think I mentioned to you therein my episode that, as someone
that's a DI keynote speaker andhas been through so many
trainings and taught trainingsand even saw some DI programs as
well in tech, I finally I justthought it was great, very
(45:13):
simple, but also, at the sametime, just a great easy way for
anyone to identify their ownunconscious bias and go beyond
the things that we hear over andover.
So thank you for creating thatand also for opening up this
forum.
I think it's great andhopefully for those out there
listening to us, they canidentify where our stories are
(45:33):
reached out to us and we canhelp them come and bring the
authentic self, whatever it isat work and the nonprofit, being
entrepreneurs or whatever it is.
So speak up, like Lauren said,because that's something that I
feel like.
For me, it's not always goingwell, but I try to speak up
whatever I can and just lead theway for others out there.
(45:53):
So thank you for creating thisgreat space.
Justin (45:56):
Thank you, Veronica.
Thank you all for yourendorsements.
I swear that, like every time Irecord something, I'm like.
I swear this isn't justself-flattery, like inducing
like people to say nice thingsabout me and my work, but I
really appreciate it.
So thank you all for yourparticipation and stay tuned.
(46:20):
Season two yeah, we'll see whathappens.
Thank you all.
Welcome to the season finale of the Creating Belonging
podcast.
Let's make sure I'm looking atthe right camera here.
Hello, hello and welcome.
I've got a few guests from ourpast episodes.
We've got our LinkedIn livegoing and I'm going to see if I
can figure out where to see someQ and A, there go.
(00:26):
See, I've got people chatting,so I'm going to pay attention to
the chat over here and, asyou've got Q&A, would love to
hear any questions that you allhave and we'll answer those.
Bring those into theconversation.
But to get us started, righthere next to me I have the
Creating Belonging model.
I understand that we may havesome people who are new to the
(00:48):
work today joining us on thisLinkedIn live, and so I want to
give a quick overview of theCreating Belonging model, just
so people understand what theheck are we talking about.
So a year ago, I published myfirst book titled Creating
Belonging, and it describes howbelonging is created at the
intersection of authenticity andacceptance.
(01:09):
And so we start with a Venndiagram, like all great models,
and then we move that out into aquadrant where we have
authenticity on the verticalaxis and acceptance on the
horizontal axis, and that givesus four different areas within
this Creating Belonging modelthat we might experience
(01:29):
ourselves being in in thedifferent communities or
workplaces, the different placeswhere we are, and so down in
the lower left-hand corner we'vegot when we're low on
authenticity, when we're low onacceptance that's what we call
that we're in reckless, where weare really not showing up with
much of ourselves and we'rereally not engaging with the
(01:53):
people in that community.
Thing about reckless, it's nota bad place to be.
It is absolutely OK to be inreckless if we need to be there
for safety reasons.
However, ideally we have peoplemoving into belonging when we're
high on authenticity, low onacceptance.
That's what we call overbearing, where we aren't really
appreciating or respectingothers, and it's where I say
(02:17):
privilege lives, where we've gotsome blinders on and our
assumptions about what the restof the world understands.
If we go to the opposite end ofthe spectrum, when we're high
on acceptance and low onauthenticity, it's what I call
minimizing.
This is where we are mutingaspects of ourselves to make
other people comfortable withour presence.
(02:39):
But if we've got the rightbalance of authenticity and
acceptance, we get to move intobelonging, also understanding
that we navigate around thismodel on a regular basis every
day, and so you're not in oneplace all the time in the
different communities you're in.
We move around, but the idealis that we're moving into a
(03:01):
higher place of belonging.
So I have with me today a few ofour podcast guests to just have
a discussion about theirexperiences on the podcast and
bringing some of that into thisbigger conversation and excited
to be doing it live.
So I'm going to go in order ofpodcast episode release, and so
(03:26):
first I'm going to introduceVeronica Rivero.
Veronica Rivero lives here inChicago, and I'm most excited,
Veronica for the restaurant thatyou're opening, because I love
queso.
Veronica do you want to?
just give a 30 second intro?
Veronica (03:42):
Yeah, of course.
Hi, I'm Veronica.
I'm born and raised in Lima,Peru.
I lived all over the US, fromNew York City to most recently,
Chicago, and I am part-time techsales and part-time
interpreter, opening a Tex-Mexrestaurant in the suburbs of
Chicago later this fall.
So follow us chicagotexmexcom.
Justin (04:06):
Yes, I'm excited for queso.
We don't do queso well inChicago, so oh, can't wait for
you to try it.
And then up next we had oursixth episode, which was a
two-parter, with Lauren Glazen,and I love the title of this one
titled Blonde Ambition.
So Blonde Identity.
(04:28):
Sorry, a play on BlondeAmbition.
Blonde Identity, Lauren, wouldyou mind introducing yourself?
Lauren (04:34):
Yeah, both of them work, so it doesn't matter.
Yeah, I'm Lauren.
I am living in New York City,working learning and development
.
Used to work with Justin, andoriginally from the UK, from
London, but in America 10 yearsnow.
And, yeah, happy to be here.
(04:55):
Thank you for including me.
Justin (04:57):
Yeah, thank you, Lauren.
And then our most recent gueston the podcast.
We actually dropped the secondhalf of her episode.
This morning at 7 AM we have DrBritt Andreatta.
Britt, would you like tointroduce yourself?
Britt (05:12):
Yes, thanks, Justin, and lovely to connect with everyone
who's listening today.
I am Britt, I create brainscience-based solutions and I
write books on the brain scienceof success.
So I'm a geek, I love to geekout on all that kind of stuff,
but I'm also in training anddevelopment.
So moving some of those bestpractices into corporations
(05:33):
around the world, and I grew upin Colorado and then moved all
over the United States.
I went to many different highschools and landed and am
currently in California.
Justin (05:46):
Awesome.
Thank you, Britt.
Thank you, and, by the way, Idon't know if you noticed, I
have your books behind me nextto my book.
Britt (05:53):
Thank you.
Justin (05:56):
So I guess, to get us started, I want to dive right in
and I'm just curious, sinceyour episodes have been released
.
I'm curious what conversationsyou've had with folks.
Veronica, you have the mostlisteners on your podcast, so
I'll bet you had someconversations since it was
released.
(06:16):
What are some of those thingsthat have come up?
Veronica (06:20):
Yes, I think overall, something that came up is just
bringing your authentic self atwork and how that varies on,
number one, where you work, whoyou work with and if you work
for a corporate or non-profit,and also something along the
lines of redefiningprofessionalism.
I think that when I graduatedcollege over 15 years ago, my
(06:43):
first job being professional,what does it mean?
It's wearing a suit, getting myhair straightened up and proper
makeup and skirt length and allthat.
And now that has changed alittle bit, now that the first
half of my career was incorporate, second half more tech
or small startups and that hasevolved.
(07:04):
I feel like I'm morecomfortable personally and some
of the friends and people thatlistened to the episode, talked
to me about hey, I'm in softwaresales I just love.
I've always wanted to dye myhair blue and I'm going to dye
my hair blue and people don'tcare in tech because I'm doing
fantastic work.
Or I'm going to put my prideflag because this is who I am on
my desk and represent myself,or just being able to wear what
(07:28):
you want, also follow yourcompany's guidelines, at the
same time also being able to beyour authentic self and help
others, be more vulnerable andhelp others do the same.
Inspire others to bring theirauthentic selves to work and
redefine what being aprofessional means.
Justin (07:46):
Yeah, the title of Veronica's episode was the Pink
Blazer.
We talked about wearing thePink Blazer at work, which I
love and that I think expressionauthenticity, expression, the
way that we dress has come up inseveral conversations.
When it comes to genderidentity, we spoke with Vanessa
(08:07):
Sheridan about her journey as atrans individual and how
clothing becomes a part of ouridentity, and we also talked
about hair with Kendra, becausenot everyone has typical
(08:29):
straight hair.
Some people have differenttextures of hair but quote,
professional standards aren'talways cognizant of that.
I'm curious, Lauren or Britt,if you have anything to add and
into that.
Britt (08:45):
Well, I was going to say you know, the Crown Act is
really important because for solong people of color have really
been ostracized for hairtexture and hairstyle and I
can't think of anything moredemeaning every day than knowing
that how God made you is notacceptable, like, is not okay,
and having to spend a lot oftime and energy and money on
(09:05):
that and even face criticism andeven punishment for not
adhering to those standards.
So I think everyone needs to bepaying attention to the Crown
Act and what it does to even theplaying field and try to undo
some of that discrimination.
So I'm glad you brought that upbecause I think we all need to
be able to show up as we reallyare.
(09:26):
And you know, speaking as awhite woman, I have so much
privilege around that I don'thave to think about that and yet
so many people.
It's a daily part of how theyhave to armor up to go into work
and do their jobs.
Justin (09:40):
Yeah, you know, Britt, some people, some listeners,
might not be familiar with theCrown Act.
Do you have like a 30 second,30 second synopsis of what that
is?
Britt (09:49):
It's legislation, so I don't have all the details on it
, but it's basically legislationthat that says physical
appearance, and particularlyhair, can not be used to
discriminate you.
So it's really trying to undothe unspoken discrimination or
often, very times, blatantdiscrimination that is done
(10:10):
around hair texture andhairstyle.
I'm wondering, Veronica orLauren, if you know a little bit
more about it.
I've been following it enoughto know that it's super
important but, like I don't knowsome of the specific details of
it, but I know it's been, it'sbeen moving through the
legislation process.
Lauren (10:29):
No, I.
You've been teaching me thelast five minutes about it, so I
appreciate that.
Justin (10:37):
Yeah, I'm.
I'm not familiar with thateither, so I'm glad you brought
it up because it's definitelysomething to pay attention to.
Well, speaking of hair, TheBlonde Identity, I'm curious,
your thoughts on this kind ofrepresentation of, you know,
appearance?
Lauren (10:58):
Yeah, it's, it's a really good question and it's
something that, again, I used tothink about a lot, especially
the company that we workedtogether in Justin was much more
buttoned up and then Itransitioned to, you know, work
in tech companies and I felt somuch more myself being able to
(11:21):
dress more sort of likeandrogynous or just like however
, however, I wanted to show upthat .
So it was, it's,it's interesting and actually
like there's comments that whereI grew up in England everyone
wears a school uniform.
It's mandatory.
There's no like it's very likeAmerica and like TV show for us
(11:45):
to be like, oh, like, kids arenot wearing uniforms, and so
everywhere in the UK I mean mostof Europe, honestly but I wore
a, yeah, same in Peru, yeah.
I wore a school uniform everysingle day of my life, and now I
talk to my wife about it and wehave like discussions about all
the time about like where,where will our kids go to school
(12:07):
, and like things like that.
And I'm adamant, I don't wantthem to wear school uniforms
because I feel like it sucks somuch my personality out of me.
And but then there's obviouslythose like the coin, where you
know, like how the kids dressand is it appropriate and things
like that.
But I'm a bit of a free spiritso I really I like being able to
(12:30):
sort of dress and wear my hair.
Like you know, this is notparticularly professional.
I was in the office thismorning and like it's all good.
So, and to answer the otherquestion, Justin, about like
what conversations have we beenhaving it's funny I a few of my
friends have been listening tothe podcast and they're like
whoa, like I didn't know thatand so I don't know the
(12:52):
conversations that I've beenhaving a more around people that
I've like pushed to the podcastand like learning you know more
about me and it's interestingto like see what people pick up
to pick up on and the thingsthat maybe I don't even like
bother to share because, like Ithink they're like mundane but
actually people find theminteresting.
So that's been cool to see howthat unfolds.
Justin (13:16):
Yeah, I love, I love the vulnerability that
we've been having in theconversations, because I think
it's important to have that youknow, ability to share, you know
just all the various aspects ofour identity and even the ones
that the people we interact withon a regular basis, things that
they may not know, and it makesme think of.
(13:38):
I want to share a story.
A couple of weeks ago, I wasspeaking at a conference in
Raleigh and on creatingbelonging, and one of the
participants, who you know worksin our realm of talent
development and you know is usedto having those conversations
around authenticity and beingopen and being vulnerable, and
(14:02):
she said that she had this bigaha moment when there was an
individual that she was in a youknow, a classroom with and he
said that he was a younger widowlike early twenties widow and
it made her realize.
(14:23):
She thought about that and sherealized that she never talked
about the fact that she was awidow because she didn't want to
give that kind of you know,bring up a potentially negative
subject for others or makeothers feel bad, and so she
started to think about leaninginto that and reclaiming that as
(14:45):
an identity because it still issomething that's a part of her.
I'm curious if that storysparks anything for anyone.
Britt (14:55):
I mean for me.
Yeah, I mean I think about somany of us have have delved into
the world of diversity andinclusion, training and this
idea of the iceberg right?
Like that.
there's certain parts of ouridentity that people can see
about us, and then there's theparts of our identity that we
share, and then there's a wholebunch.
Most of our identity is underthe waterline, right.
All these things that we'velived through being a child
(15:16):
divorce, what your economicstatus was, what your native
language was, was Do do you havea mental or physical challenge
that you live through or workwith?
Are you a survivor of something?
I mean there's so many piecesof our identity that we don't
share or can't share, or toobusy to share, or there's
consequences for sharing right,and I always think about.
(15:38):
I remember my own journey around, just went off to college
totally privileged white kid andthen learned a lot of stuff and
had a lot of those blinderstaken off and I know for myself.
remember someone saying I said, oh, I don't know how many, I
don't know any gay people in mylife.
This was before I evenidentified as bisexuals, even
identify myself as one.
(15:58):
But I remember this personsaying, no, you do you actually
have a lot of gay people in yourlife.
You just haven't let them knowthat you're safe to be around
yet, they don't know that you'resafe to come out to yet, and
that really shifted myperspective around.
Oh, if I'm going to, you know,understand the role that
(16:19):
privilege has, it also meansthat people will not be their
authentic selves around meunless I am consistently and
persistently giving signs that Ihave some awareness around this
.
And it really shifted how Italked about things and how I
used my language to createopenings for other people to see
(16:39):
a little bit more of who I amand also to create that sense of
safety that maybe they couldshare more with me.
And sure enough, once I didthat, it was amazing how many
people in my life were gay orwho had experienced different
things, or people of color who,seeing those markers in my
language and behavior, felt morecomfortable telling me the
(17:00):
authentic truth of their livesand their experiences.
So I think that this wholejourney is is our own journey
around our own identity, butit's also around seeing how and
where we are safe to bebecause not just ski to be
vulnerable if there's not someindicator of safety.
People have died for not, youknow, for sharing who they
(17:23):
authentically are, and so Ithink that level of like we
always need to be mindful of.
That's the reality.
People get hurt, people arekilled around some of these
topics.
Justin (17:37):
It's also important to recognize that being able to not
disclose parts of our identityis also privilege, right,
because there are others whohave marginalized identities
that they're, they can't hidethem.
You know, if we think aboutrace, disability, right, like
just someone's mere presencesays something about them.
(18:04):
Veronica, I'm curious if youhave any thoughts on that.
Veronica (18:07):
Yeah, I think actually just to offer a little side of
the coin for what Lauren saidabout the uniforms, I think that
for me personally, growing upin an all girls Catholic school,
extremely conservative, to yourpoint bread about like I didn't
know any of my friends you knowthey were gay or not, but I
think the uniform, the reasonwhy I like that, was because out
(18:29):
of the bad we were all the samein the way of like, hey, even
if you are richer or poor,middle, we all wear the same
uniform.
We're all come in in in a in away I was.
I would love to see that, likewhen I'm interviewing for jobs
or in different ways, it's like,oh no, the first thing people
here is my accent.
Or like, oh, she's not going tobe doing this or that.
(18:50):
Instead of having thatunconscious bias in a way, I
think that's kind of like afirst step of like we're all
starting from an equal playingfield but also, you know, in
small pockets of groups beingable to create that open
environment of belonging.
Right, I'm telling some of myfriends like hey, you know I'm
I'm struggling with these things.
Or like when someone one of mygirlfriends came out and saying
(19:12):
that you know, I like girls andI'm like, okay, that's great,
I'm here for you.
That doesn't affect how I feelabout you or anything about our
friendship.
So what, I'm new to this, youknow because of where we grew up
.
But educate me, teach me, let'stalk about it and your secret
safe with me until you're ready.
So so kind of started from thatsame playing field, but taking
(19:32):
it to the next level, and I meanI do like you know wearing my
blazer and all that but incertain situations I do feel
like starting from the sameplaying field just helps with
that unconscious bias.
And then you got to build thosesmaller pockets of groups where
you can be vulnerable and helpothers also open up about
themselves and the ways theythink and how we can help each
(19:52):
other.
Justin (19:55):
Yeah, there's an interesting balance there of how
do we level the playing field.
At the same time, how do welean into our authenticity.
And it makes me think of one ofthe biggest themes that and I
think we've been edging aroundthis a little bit one of the
biggest themes that came out ofmany of the discussions in the
podcast was the concept ofrepresentation, because I think
(20:20):
that when the more we haverepresentation of various
identities, it does start to, Ihate this word, but normalize
those identities in a way thatstarts to level the playing
field.
And so I want to dive into thattopic a little bit and I'm
curious if any of you have anexample and maybe we've already
(20:41):
talked about it, so you knowanother example of
representation, howrepresentation has helped you
lean into your authenticity.
Lauren (20:54):
I think I have ways where it's helped and ways where
, like, obviously lack of it is,you know, hindered.
I think I talk about this a lotand actually, as I work in L
and D on the side, I'm alsobecoming a therapist and
marriage and family therapist,so the work kind of intertwines
there and it's so interesting tosee sort of behavioral science
(21:16):
in that way and and how systemicyou know how family systems
work and then corporate systemswork and all of the things that
come with it.
But for me, like, as I've beenthinking about this and I think
about me and my wife and youknow, if we start a family and
things like that and like what,what lesbians like do I see that
(21:40):
have a family and sort of likethe life, that heteronormative
like standards shoot, you know,shoot to, to like aim towards
and like you know what I mean bythat is we.
This is a prettyheteronormative world and I can
think of like Ellen DeGeneresmaybe, or like, like Abby
(22:03):
Wambach and Glennon Doyle, but Idon't have thousands of
examples of like people who aredoing the thing that like we're
trying to do and there's notlike years of, you know,
hundreds of years of differentpeople.
You know, the world's beenaround for what 10,000 years or
something and we're living inthe last eight years where gay
(22:24):
marriage is legal and so it's.
It's a really interesting timefor us.
It feels like yeah, yeah, likewhatever it's been legal and
like that fights over orwhatever.
But it's just even eight yearsout of like thousands of years
and I I find representationreally important and actually I
don't recall if I mentioned this.
(22:46):
But, Justin, you and I had aconversation.
I was struggling to come outwhen, when you became my boss
and people at work did not know,and we had a conversation, and
you looked at me and you werelike honey, like I can never go
back into the closet, like I,you know, like I just I couldn't
, I couldn't pretend, even if mylife like depended on it, and I
(23:06):
was like I hope someday to getto that point where like and I
say that I rip off your line,Justin, I take it all the time
because I'm like I'm now thatpoint where I'm like I am so gay
like I don't even like I wantto like have uncomfortable
conversations, like you know,bring it on and and I'm not
(23:28):
obnoxious about it anymore.
I've written that in a bit,Justin, in the last four years,
but like it's more so.
Like, yeah, just in a helpfulway, like trying to represent
the things that I know, you know, I know about.
So other people feel comfortand that's.
That's all we can really do, Ithink.
(23:49):
So that was my soapbox.
Britt (23:53):
I want to add to that.
Being in work, where I amalways creating presentations
for other people, I always thinka lot about representation in
things that we create.
So, for example, I'm veryintentional every time I give a
keynote speech or in my books isthat I am making sure that the
photos that I choose are reallyrepresentative, and I'll
(24:17):
actually go back and like makesure, do I have people of
different ages, have I reallyrepresented different
backgrounds and life experiences?
And I think it's reallyimportant.
And I just did a talk for amajor, major global financial
company just a couple months agoand one of the members of the
audience looked me up andemailed me and said thank you so
(24:38):
much for having a picture of awoman in the headscarf in your
deck.
She said it's the first time Ifelt myself represented.
And she said for me, theheadscarf is a very important
symbol of my identity.
I am very proud of it.
I know people have judgmentaround it, but I loved the way
that I could see myself in yourpresentation and the fact that
it moved her to the point whereshe looked me up and sent me an
(25:00):
email afterwards, just confirmedthat we're all hungering to be
seen and when someone takes thetime to make sure that you know
that there's representation.
Now the other thing that wehave to caution against is it
can't be fake representation,right?
We can't have all these amazingphotos on the company website
and nobody actually looks likethat in the company, right?
(25:20):
So it's a commitment to thereality of representing the real
diversity of all this beautifulhumanity, both in our workers
and our customers and ourexecutives.
You know we've got a long wayto go in the C suite to have
equal representation.
I think it really matters forall of us and we also play a
(25:44):
role in creating that for otherpeople, in whatever ways that we
work or live in our in ourneighborhoods.
Veronica (25:51):
Absolutely.
I think something I like to addto that is that whenever you
know I've hired people in thepast and working for corporate
or just even being the onlyLatina or woman in the group,
because in tech we also don'thave many women or Latinas.
I like to just start, you know,by pre phrasing like let's
before you look at this resumeis before you get anything or
(26:12):
don't understand a name.
Let's seek to understand, notto judge, you know.
Or sometimes I mean I've donethis experiment in the past
where, like I, just take out thenames right in the resumes and
just give them based on theirexperience, and so they can add
you know, we all haveunconscious biases that we're
all working on so they can justbase on the experience, the
(26:33):
different things, commonalitiesor work you know, so that have
that playing field, kind of likewearing that uniform again, but
also go from there and maybetalk to someone that you've
never talked to before, or justtry to expand your thinking and
in the way you approach yourview of the world and your own
job.
Justin (26:53):
Thank you.
Thank you.
One thing for for our livelisteners, I am paying attention
to chat over here, so if youhave any questions, feel free to
pop those in and we'll bringthat into the conversation.
But I wanted to summarize onething that I heard and this came
, I think, really from bothLauren and Britt was the
(27:16):
understanding of the impact thatyou can have on others in
representation that may seeminconsequential to you, right,
like Lauren, I remember sittingand having that conversation,
but I don't remember that quote.
I love that you do and you know,for, for Britt, what seems, you
(27:37):
know, while intentional, youhad such an impact on someone.
And so just, I think, keeping inmind that we all have elements
where we can infuse differenttypes of representation into our
interactions with people,keeping that, keeping that, you
(27:59):
know, front of mind to help them.
I mean, I know that and I doknow, Lauren, that you know,
back then I was absolutely likemy mission was I'm out of the
closet and I'm never going backin.
Because you know, as that thestory that I start a lot of
things with.
You know, I once had a boss whosaid you know, you're too open
(28:20):
with your sexuality, when Iwasn't actually at all at the
time, and so I never want to bein that situation again, and I
know that being representationothers will do that.
I want to transition a littlebit to talk about the
relationship then betweenrepresentation and authenticity,
(28:42):
and I'm curious if you have anythoughts about kind of the the
you know, because the this is abig theme that's come up.
Representation and authenticity, I think, create a virtuous
cycle.
I'm just curious what yourthoughts are.
Britt (29:03):
I absolutely agree and I'm reminded of Dr B Brown's
work on vulnerability and shameand courage and she talks about
vulnerability is our greatestmeasure of courage.
Right, because when we engagein an act of vulnerability, it's
a risk.
We are, we are openingourselves up for potential
judgment, potentialdiscrimination, potential
(29:23):
positive experiences, but wedon't necessarily know how it's
going to turn out right.
And and yet it's, it's such acourageous act and I think when
I think about representation,what I see is a lot of really
courageous people who arewilling to go first, even though
super risky.
So I think about the Ellenstory.
You know, Ellen came outpublicly.
(29:44):
It did not go well, like shelost her job, she lost her
following, she received deaththreats, like she is an example
of someone who really broke thatbarrier and now, I think, is
seen as the hero she always wasall along, but at the same time
it was very damaging.
So I think a lot of people whosaw what happened to her said
(30:05):
I'm going to stay in the closeta little bit longer that that
didn't go well and at the sametime, her, along with many other
brave souls who were, who weretaking the risk to come out, now
create an environment where wehave a lot more representation
in media.
I think media plays asignificant role.
I think TV producers and movieproducers have some of the most
(30:26):
powerful opportunities to showus reality and then make people
more comfortable.
I think about now how many men Isee kissing in TV shows and
movies and that would have neverbeen seen 10 years ago.
And, yeah, some people aregoing to be super uncomfortable
with it because it's the firsttime they've ever seen it.
But after you see a few you'relike, okay, a kiss is a kiss,
(30:47):
whatever, and we can reallydesensitize people to some of
their, their judgments orbeliefs that they have through
representation.
So representation is super,super powerful both ways.
We also over represent AfricanAmericans in media as criminals
and so if you, if and there'sstudies on this in terms of like
, how they represent 90 per I'mmaking this statistic up, but
(31:11):
it's a really high number aroundAfrican actors, african
American actors or black actors,and how they are put in roles
that have a criminal nature tothem, and then that feeds the
stereotype that people perceivewhen they consume that media.
So we have to be super carefulwith representation because it
can be helpful or it can behurtful.
Justin (31:31):
Yeah yeah sorry, Lauren.
Lauren (31:34):
And I was just going to say that I think it's.
I think it's really hard to beauthentic without representing
something.
Like, I don't even know if it'salways like so front of mind
for people to be.
(31:55):
You know, I'm just talkingabout like everyday life, right.
When I'm standing up there, I'mgiving a training to people and
I'm saying things or I'mlistening in a certain way or
asking certain questions likethis, and I'm being authentic.
I feel like I'm probablyrepresenting different, you know
different things, or people areusing their own perspective to
(32:18):
sort of figure out what, youknow, what that means for them.
Because it's sort of personal,isn't it, like, if I see you
being authentic Justin, that tome could represent like, you're
an American and you're being youknow.
But for you, you think well I'mcoming across like as a man and
(32:39):
being, I'm representing likemen that they can listen or
whatever.
So I don't know, I think it'slike.
I think it's definitely like anintrospective understanding and
like sometimes I think I'mbeing super authentic and
someone's like what you werelike acting up then and I'm like
what's I?
So I don't know, I can get inmy own head and go for days on
(33:02):
the spiral.
But yeah, hopefully I'm makingsome sense.
Justin (33:07):
I think there's part of it, you know I go back to.
You know the, there's a storythat I tell about an executive
that I worked with that didn'tlike the idea of authenticity,
because he would say well, ifsomeone's an asshole, then that
just gives them permission to beauthentically an asshole.
But I don't think that's whatauthenticity is.
I think that authenticityshould be much more intentional,
(33:29):
like we do just show up rightas ourselves every day, some
parts good, some parts not sogood.
For me, the idea ofauthenticity is really
understanding who do we want toshow up as in the world and
being a little more intentionalwith that.
Because there is, you know,there are probably things that
(33:52):
I'm representing on a dailybasis, intentionally and
unintentionally, and some thatyou know I may not want to show
up as unintentionally.
Yeah, it's, I think there's.
I want to marry theintentionality into authenticity
.
Veronica (34:11):
I think it's a balance which we're all trying to
figure out, like like, Lauren,you said sometimes.
You know, when I first moved tothe US, I was 18 and I was
trying to get rid of thisaccident because I'm such a
perfectionist, right.
So I'm like why can I speakperfect English?
I would meet people at collegeand our name, which I was part
of, the 1% not 1% rich, 1%Hispanic and I was, you know
(34:32):
they will be like I love youraccent.
I would be like, oh, I hate it.
Okay.
And then I realized, like, so Ishift my mindset on that and
then made it my mission to helpothers that are also immigrants
or international students tolike now, when I meet someone
that has an accent and goesthrough the same things that I
go through, I help them withframe like hey and if I meet
(34:54):
someone that has an accent,automatically think that they
speak maybe another language orthey're just smart or they have
world experience, right?
So I try to help them see itthat way, so that they're also
proud of where they came fromand from their accent.
But also, sometimes we canoverdo it, right, I can go to
just like hey, Latinos, justLatino women, and we all are,
haha, rara.
But guess what?
We're still underrepresented inthe C suite in tech, not just
(35:17):
Latinos, you know, AfricanAmericans, LGBTQ world
underrepresented in the C suite.
So we still got to you know,whole leadership accountable for
find those allies thatunderstand what we're going
through but also want tochampion.
Not just us being surrounded byothers that are just like us,
right like we got to help eachother, elevate each other and
(35:38):
fight that balance of being ourauthentic self, but also help
others that are not like usunderstand why it's important to
bring that representation.
Justin (35:48):
And, Veronica, you make me think of another concept that
came up that I want to talkabout, because you had mentioned
and I think you talked aboutthis in your original episode to
which was, you know, when youmove to the states, you were
really trying to diminish youraccent and then, over time, you
kind of grew into your ownacceptance and comfort with it
(36:12):
and realizing that you know itis a part of you that you don't
want to be ashamed of.
And so the that leads me intothinking about some of the
conversations that I've hadaround society's expectations of
us and how we, you know, try toget ourselves to fit into those
(36:33):
expectations, and essentiallywhat we're talking about is
minimizing right.
So how are we kind of pullingin our own authenticity to be
what other people want, or whatwe're told other people want?
What thoughts do you have onthat?
Britt (36:55):
I mean you and I spent a good chunk of our podcast
talking about just my journey asbeing a girl and then a woman
and being socialized reallyearly on that my body would be
sexualized whether I wanted itto be or not.
And all the message I'vereceived around needing to dress
to attract a man and, at thesame time, be careful and always
(37:20):
check the backseat of your car,and it's always this
double-edged sword of the goalis to be sexual and attract
someone, but don't do it toomuch or else you're going to get
a bunch of bad stuff happen toyou and it's very confusing.
It's a very confusing journeyaround that.
So I think that who you'resupposed to be, to whom and when
(37:42):
can sometimes be a movingtarget, and the very thing that
is complimented is turned aroundand used to attack.
And I think that and I justhave that experience around
gender I know that racialidentity and sexual orientation
and all these other aspects ofidentity are even doubly
confusing.
So just I'm struck by we allgrow up being told by people
(38:07):
around us how we should be andwhat the pros and cons are of
that, and then we have our livedexperiences and then we've got
media.
It's very confusing and it'shard to unlearn that stuff, and
I shared with Justin that I findmyself thinking in my head
things that my mom said to methat when I hear them in my head
I go, oh my God, because I havea daughter now, and I find
(38:28):
myself wanting to pass on thosemessages.
And then I'm like, wait, no,that's not a message I want to
pass on, but it's amazing howquickly that voice is in my head
.
Men won't like that, don't dothat, because that men will be
threatened by it.
And it's just kind of.
It's scary the level ofbrainwashing you have to
intentionally be aware of sothat you don't pass it on
(38:49):
unconsciously.
Justin (38:52):
You make me think of a TikTok I just saw yesterday that
was of like.
You know, this mock thing oflike mothers in the 70s having a
meeting and talking about whatare all the lies they can tell
their children to to scare them.
That very much shaped us as GenX and millennials.
Well, Lauren, I'm going to pickon you because I know I can.
(39:18):
When it comes to societalexpectations, I know one of the
things that we talked about andit was almost this trite
statement that I said was youknow how you came to the States
to find your freedom?
In that I assume there are somesocietal expectations that you
may have been escaping, or youknow?
(39:38):
I don't know.
I don't want to put words inyour mouth.
I'm curious you know what yourthoughts are on that and your
societal expectations, and thenhow that you know your
identities?
Lauren (39:50):
Yeah, I think, I don't know.
I think the societalexpectations cross borders, so I
may be trying to like escapefrom it in some ways, from
England, and being like in likea pretty tight knit Jewish
community where things areexpected of you at certain ages
and you know anything other thanthat is deemed like not
(40:12):
successful pretty much.
And still I find myself havingthese conversations with my
parents where or you know otherparents where they're like they
just you know like success islike being married to someone of
the opposite sex, maybe of thesame sex now, and maybe that's
that's like entered theconversation like some kids,
(40:33):
like a good job, owning a house.
I'm just like I don't know ifthat's how I define success at
this point.
And it can be like prettylonely because like when your
whole family or like when yourwhole community thinks that like
that's what success is, you canfeel like kind of crazy and
thinking like well, maybe Idon't want to be in a marriage
(40:53):
with just two people or maybe Idon't want to be, you know,
maybe I never want to own ahouse, or maybe you know I want
to move every five years orsomething, and it's like
anything outside of like wasdeemed society societally, you
know, successful is can bepretty isolating, so I wonder
(41:19):
how much society pushes us onthe journey, you know, on, like,
like a lazy river.
It just like it just makes usdo the things that everyone else
does.
And yeah, I don't know, I thinkthat, like the therapy school
and like the L and D staff, andjust having to like face my own
demons and battles and comingout, and things like that, they
(41:42):
just make you think like, whatdo you really want?
And I don't know.
Does anyone know?
Like, like, does anyone havethe answers?
So I don't know.
Veronica (41:55):
Yeah, I think you brought up a good point on.
You know, everyone has theirown definition of success, right
?
And I think we all grew up withfor me too, you know, Latina,
you gotta be a housewife and getmarried by 25 and all that.
I was like 25, I don't evenknow what I want to do with my
life at that age.
And I was living in New YorkCity at the time and I think
this is why I love big citiestoo, because they're a little
(42:15):
bit more open, not where we allwould love to be.
But also I saw people that looklike me, that I saw
representation in my food andcertain let's see level
executive and people from allbackgrounds and I learned so
much so I did love that.
But also like, hey, I don'twant a house, some people want
the white picket fence, otherswant the white picket penthouse.
(42:35):
You know, like it's, it's whatyou want, it's different, and
some people want kids, so theydon't.
I mean, there's always going tobe, unfortunately, people that
will judge us if we don't fitwithin their mold.
But again, just trying tounderstand and maybe just coming
up front and saying, hey, thisis my definition of success.
It might not be yours, but I'mreally happy who I am, what I'm
(42:56):
doing, and hopefully you can behappy for me and for others that
have chosen this path as well.
Justin (43:02):
Thank you.
Well, so I'm just looking atthe time and I know that this is
eventually going to turn into apodcast that people are going
to listen to and will probablyjust release this whole chunk as
one.
So I want to start to wrap upthe conversation.
I don't see any questionscoming in in the chat online,
and so I want to thank everyonefor your participation in the
(43:28):
Creating Belonging podcast thisseason.
It was very much an experimentin can I launch a podcast?
I did Today was an experimentin can I do a LinkedIn live?
The answer is yes, so I want tothank you all, but I want to
just see if anyone has anyclosing thoughts or words they
(43:50):
want to share.
Lauren (43:53):
No, I'm proud of you.
I think this was awesome andwhat a great experiment, and it
was successful in my eyes.
Justin (44:00):
So thank you, Lauren.
Britt (44:03):
I want to say that I really value the model you
created.
I think it just has there'ssuch a depth and richness there
that really allows theseconversations to come forward in
a non-threatening, exploratoryway, and I think everybody can
find themselves on the model andalso see that they've been in
all four quadrants at varioustimes around different parts of
(44:25):
their identity.
So if folks haven't read thebook yet, I encourage you to
pick it up.
I think it's really great and Ithink it's a great way to open
up some of these conversationswith people at work and in your
family and just start to kind ofexplore how are each of us on
that model and how do we feellike we are authentic in our
(44:45):
lives and where are we maybemissing some of that?
I think that's a great thingfor us all to explore.
Veronica (44:51):
Yes, thank you, Justine.
Thank you first of all forcreating a safe space for us to
be ourselves, to share ourstories, but also for creating
your model.
I think I mentioned to you therein my episode that, as someone
that's a DI keynote speaker andhas been through so many
trainings and taught trainingsand even saw some DI programs as
well in tech, I finally I justthought it was great, very
(45:13):
simple, but also, at the sametime, just a great easy way for
anyone to identify their ownunconscious bias and go beyond
the things that we hear over andover.
So thank you for creating thatand also for opening up this
forum.
I think it's great andhopefully for those out there
listening to us, they canidentify where our stories are
(45:33):
reached out to us and we canhelp them come and bring the
authentic self, whatever it isat work and the nonprofit, being
entrepreneurs or whatever it is.
So speak up, like Lauren said,because that's something that I
feel like.
For me, it's not always goingwell, but I try to speak up
whatever I can and just lead theway for others out there.
(45:53):
So thank you for creating thisgreat space.
Justin (45:56):
Thank you, Veronica.
Thank you all for yourendorsements.
I swear that, like every time Irecord something, I'm like.
I swear this isn't justself-flattery, like inducing
like people to say nice thingsabout me and my work, but I
really appreciate it.
So thank you all for yourparticipation and stay tuned.
(46:20):
Season two yeah, we'll see whathappens.
Thank you all.
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