January 24, 2024 • 33 mins
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Have you ever felt like an outsider in your own life, hiding behind a mask for fear of not fitting in? Our guest, Rick Clemens, knows this struggle all too well, but he's turned his quest for belonging into a beacon of hope for others. Join us as Rick, a gay dad and entrepreneur, shares his poignant journey from concealing his true self to becoming a guiding light for individuals navigating their own paths to authenticity. This episode isn't just about coming out; it's about coming into your own and the remarkable transformation that follows when you start living life on your own terms.
This conversation goes beyond personal anecdotes, as we touch upon the broader societal landscape of Orange County, California, where the veneer of perfection often overshadows the need for genuine connection. We unravel the complexities of relationships, identity, and the courage it takes to remove the masks we wear. Whether it's the story of his late-in-life coming out, or Rick's experiences with clients who are learning to embrace their true selves, this episode is an invitation to join us in creating a world where authenticity isn't just celebrated—it's the norm. Listen in for a heartening exploration of what it means to find your tribe and why the journey to self-acceptance is the most rewarding one of all.
You can find Rick on LinkedIn, Instagram, or his Website.
You can also check out is podcasts: 40 Plus Gay Men Gay Talk and Life (Un)Closeted
You can order your copy of Creating Belonging on Amazon.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Justin (00:10):
Welcome to another episode of the Creating
Belonging podcast.
Today, I have with me RickClemens.
And Rick, I'd love for you justto introduce yourself and your
own words.
Rick (00:21):
Yeah, so I'm a guy who struggled with belonging for my
entire life, even at 60 yearsold.
There's times I still struggle,but I'm a gay dad and I let
that whole experience of comingout of the closet drive the rest
of what happened in my life, tothe point that it became a
(00:41):
business for me, and I'm a coachand author, a podcaster myself,
and I've turned the wholeconcept of coming out and
belonging into something thatreally helps people step into
their own world and realize theycan let go of a lot of things
that they were doing.
A lot of your stuff, honestly,is very similar to us, I think.
(01:05):
As a community, we findourselves reclusive at times.
We deal with overbearingthoughts and processes that keep
us in the closet.
We minimize who we are to helpkeep everybody else happy and
then, lo and behold, we don'tfeel like we ever belong.
So that's my story and I thinkI'm going to stick to it for now
(01:25):
.
Justin (01:26):
I love it, rick, I love you're already bringing the
model in.
Rick (01:32):
You told me that's what you want me to do, not kidding.
Justin (01:36):
You're just showing that you've done your homework,
which I love.
I haven't done my homework.
Rick (01:40):
Do I get an A?
That's all I want to know.
Do I get an A for the A?
Yeah, so you get an A Awesome.
Justin (01:47):
So one other thing I like to do you revealed some
identities, but I also like tojust kind of ground us and make
sure there's any other, see ifthere's any other identities
that you want to share with ouraudience, as most are just
listening.
Rick (02:01):
Yeah, I feel like there's this other piece of myself
that's oh you already everybodyheard I'm gay.
But after that experience offinally coming into my truth, I
realized I started opening otherclosets of my life and going
this is who I want to be.
And I was very reclusive aboutwanting to be my own business
owner and have my own business.
(02:21):
And it's interesting, justin,to see how that one quote, one
moment of life which wasn't one,it was every ongoing moment of
life opened me to therealization of how much I was
missing out on belonging so muchin my world in so many spaces.
So I became an entrepreneur, Istarted speaking on stages,
(02:42):
started doing my podcast andsuddenly Rick's a pretty happy
camper because he opened himselfup to like hey, this is what it
feels good for me to belong inthe world.
Yeah, faster than me.
Justin (02:54):
Yeah, I know I've got to say I've been, I've been out of
my own for the past year andthere's something so liberating
about it and I get to do thework that I love doing every day
and make a choice about it.
Yep, and I've been so happy soI totally get it.
Thank you for sharing.
And I love the work that you doin, you know, coaching other
(03:16):
gay individuals, you know, intheir journey, which I'm sure
maybe that will come into ourconversation.
But I guess, to get us started,you know, have you what, what,
what life experiences?
As you were going through thework of creating belonging at
the book, what life experiencescame to mind for you as you were
reflecting on your journey?
Rick (03:39):
Well, I think the biggest one is from a very young age.
I I never had ever really feltlike I fit in in places.
I really strived hard and oneof the biggest lessons I learned
about myself in striving tobelong is a lot of times I was
striving to belong to the wrongspace or with the wrong people
(04:01):
and that revealed itself in somevery interesting ways as I grew
my business and I got aroundsome pretty well known
entrepreneurs out there in theentrepreneurial space and it's
almost like I inserted myself intheir world, which was fine.
But guess what I was wanting?
I was wanting to belong.
So I'm like well, why aren'tthey accepting me?
(04:21):
Or why and the best example ofthat is Chris Gillibow, who used
to run World Domination Summitin Portland, oregon.
He's a New York Timesbestseller.
He's written the book a hundreddollar startup and a few other
amazing books Went to theconference, kind of got to know
him.
He offered to be on my podcast acouple of times and all the way
(04:41):
through that, justin, I waslike I just want to be on the
WDS stage, I just want to be onthe WSDH, and I got really angry
at times because I was neverbeing seen for who I was and I
reached out to their team andlike, hey, you know, hey, you
know, here's how we usually doit.
When we find somebody that wewant, we come after them.
I'm like, okay, there was a lotof growth there, but I was
trying to belong because if Icould do this then I'd fit in
(05:04):
Right.
And then one day, recording thepodcast with Chris after I
launched 40 plus gay man, gaytalk and he's not gay, I was
actually with a differentpodcast at the time was 40 plus
real man, real talk.
I was talking to real guysabout the stuff we guys need to
talk about.
We got done.
I had already kind of let thatdream go Like, okay, you know,
(05:24):
seven years going to theconference.
No, I love going to theconference.
And Guess what Chris said haveyou ever been on the WDS stage?
Of course I wanted to kind ofslap him.
I'm like you rough the frickinprogram and you should know
right.
But after seven years ofMultiple speakers and all this
sort of stuff, you know I, youknow, I used to be a meeting
(05:44):
planner and there it was Justinand dropped in my lap the
opportunity to speak.
But here's the difference IWasn't Striving and yearning
like this is gonna be the thing,and actually that's one of my
proudest moments speaking onstage, because I was just like,
okay, this is, let's go havesome fun, let's just go do this
(06:06):
because I get to get back tothis community that I really
love and I get to go.
It was such a big shift for me.
It brought me out of thisinteresting space of going
here's why I'm doing this andgot me into a space up.
Here's the real reason.
Mm-hmm started unlocking otherways that I saw myself being
overbearing in my own way aboutrelationships, minimizing other
(06:31):
people's talents, a lot of timesholding up like I can't believe
I didn't get the attention fromthis person or that person or
this person that I wanted.
So then I would, I wouldliterally like hold up.
I do my work, I do my life andpeople say we don't see much
anymore out there on Internet,and you know social media and
you know I had to grow up.
(06:52):
I had to realize that mybelonging was me creating
belonging in the right wayversus my idea of what belonging
.
Justin (07:02):
Well, yeah.
So I'm curious how did thatshift happen for you?
Rick (07:08):
Humility.
I Started realizing and I had afew mentors saying you know,
rick, here's the thing, you area brilliant guy, you got.
You got a great message in it.
But and one, one mentor inparticular said and you got it,
you got a huge effin ego man.
I was like, okay, that hurt,but then I was Willing enough.
(07:37):
And I think this is part of whenwe think about how do we belong
or how do we move it throughsome of these things.
That's in your beautifulprocess.
You have to be able to see it,to believe it, and then you have
to embrace it and fix it.
Hmm, and I grew up in anarcissistic home and I thought
I'm never gonna be that and Iworked really hard not to be
(07:59):
that, except I was In my own way.
We're not not near to level.
You know that my father was.
But and that was the shift man,the humility and realizing
Maybe the reason I don't belongis people see ego, a little bit
of a narcissist in me.
It's always got to be the way Iwant to get things done.
(08:20):
And it hurt.
It hurt to see yourself thatway.
I do some big deep breaths andsaid, okay, let's start doing
some work.
That's why, when I reallyentered into that personal
development stuff, was that atthat time.
Justin (08:34):
Okay, so and so that was the catalyst was kind of like
Getting more into your own kindof personal development.
Rick (08:42):
Well, I figured, if I'm gonna be coaching people about,
you know, being themselves andyou know, moving out of their
fears and excuses, I had to beliving and breathing my walk and
talk.
I Didn't want to be out ofintegrity.
I live.
I lived 36 years of my life.
I'm integrity before I came outof the closet.
And it's interesting justbecause everything kind of comes
(09:03):
back to that experience, like,well, that was the real catalyst
, but that also was the catalystthat fed the other catalysts
like, even to this day, continue.
There's things that happen, youknow, in the last few months,
where I'm like, oh, that that'snot how I'm gonna fit in, that's
not how I need to feel, like Ineed to fit in, or that's not
what I need to be doing, ordon't isolate.
(09:25):
Because of that, it'sinteresting.
I mean, when you reach out tome like, oh, this is really
interesting because there's alot of alignment in what you
Speak on what I do, mm-hmm.
And I think, for many people,if they really realized what
they can do, when they startembracing what it looks like to
be, you know, your own recluse,or if you're letting overbearing
(09:46):
us be part of who you are, youminimize everybody else, you
minimize your feelings.
I'm a huge low, you know it'sokay, I'm good.
Yeah, I want to take care ofeverybody else, and that's
really detrimental to my ownwell-being, so Mm-hmm.
Justin (10:01):
That's how I love your.
I love that you're in thisplace of you know, finding
belonging through your ownenlightenment, through your own
Reflection of who you are, anddeveloping yourself, because
that's I keep.
So I'm digging deeper into justthoughts around the creating
belonging work and more researcharound authenticity and what
(10:23):
have been having this week, justthis week, having very
interesting conversations aroundAuthenticity and you know,
authenticity I don't know if yousaw is like the, the word of
2023, um, but I think it's beingused in a way that isn't A way
(10:43):
that serves us best.
Like often, like I think we seeauthenticity, a lot of this,
like it's actually fitting in,rather than digging into deep
self-awareness, self-reflection,understanding who we are and
then showing up with intentionOf who we really are and want to
(11:05):
be for the world, not, um, tofit in in the world.
Rick (11:10):
Yep, I see authenticity as uh, maybe it's because I just
interviewed somebody from mypodcast and we talked a lot
about radical integrity.
When you can be radicallyauthentic, that's saying I'm not
gonna, I'm gonna be my ownunique self.
I'm gonna allow that piece ofme to be truly seen.
(11:32):
That doesn't mean you get to gobe a jerk, that's not what I'm
getting at but I would muchrather.
I mean I'll give you a goodexample.
When I speak on stage, don't doit as much as I used to.
You will never, ever, ever, seeme in a suit and tie.
In fact, you'll be lucky if I'meven wearing khakis and a
tucked-in shirt, becauseauthentic rick comes out.
(11:55):
Jeans, untucked shirt, brightpair of shoes, bright colored
pair of shoes, because that's mybold, big energy.
I wanna just be comfortable inwho I am.
Plus, I move a lot on stage andeverything, and I tell my
meeting planners when they hireme, like here's the deal I will
never be the buttoned-up suitand tie guy, but I'm gonna
deliver like nobody's businessto make sure your audience has
(12:18):
an experience as atransformation.
And the way I'm able to do thatis I get to be authentically
myself on stage, the same linebeing authentically right now
having this conversation withyou about serving your audience.
It's just not gonna be in asuit and tie.
Justin (12:32):
Yeah, I never had anybody push that.
Yeah, and that's why they'rehiring you, right For you, for
the unique perspective that youbring, for the voice that you
have.
So, yeah, and I think that'sgreat kind of table stakes to
put out there, because ifsomebody was like, no, actually
we need you to wear a suit, andyou'd be like, well, that's not
me, so I'm not gonna be doingyou a service because I can't be
(12:56):
authentic in this work.
I love that.
Rick (13:01):
And so another part of my business is I actually coach
public speakers on buildingtheir speaking businesses.
This is one of the things Idrive home.
If you show up differently onstage than how you market
yourself on your website, that'sthe surest way to ensure you
never get another speaking gig,or vice versa.
(13:21):
You need to show upauthentically who you are.
When you show up and again Ithink back to your process it's
really understanding how youperceive yourself belonging in
the world, and not justperceived.
It is like embodying that piecein the world.
Mm-hmm, it's huge.
Justin (13:43):
Yeah, yeah, there are some other things.
I wanna go down another littlerabbit hole and the way that you
were talking about kind of thisego, kind of pre-enlightenment
and not that it's the onlyenlightenment that you've had,
I'm sure, but like thatparticular one of that ego and
kind of the hardworking it justmakes me think of my experience
(14:07):
as a gay man and how I wasalways trying to be better or
better than Yup, because then ifI'm better than like you can't
look down on me for whateverreason like I'm still doing
better and that is something Ithink I'm still trying to shake
that a little bit.
(14:27):
But I'm curious that resonateswith you and your journey.
Rick (14:32):
Well, I think it ties back into okay, if I had this mentor
really like me, then I'm oh,I'm in that circle now I'm
better.
And then if I do this, I mean Idon't really watch the
downloads on my podcast becauseI'm like I get emails and stuff.
I'm like cool people arelistening.
That's my barometer.
(14:55):
Yes, I see the numbers, butthat's whole better than and I
think we as gay men, we kind ofhave to be that way, so to speak
.
I'm saying that in a waybecause I'm not saying we have
to, but we kind of think we haveto be that way Because we're so
driven in the community.
We got to have the abs and thebiceps and this and the cars and
(15:20):
the right and so much of itgets judged around that.
And I lived kind of adjacent tothat life for a while.
I lived in Orange County,california, and there was a
perception of how you weresupposed to be.
And that was when I was marriedto my wife and there was a lot
(15:40):
of push and, honestly, had I notcome out of the closet, we
probably would have got divorcedanyway, because I just wasn't
gonna be what she wanted.
I just couldn't do that and itwas ooh, this is how you get to
be known, this is how you get tobe who you are in the world,
and it's one of the things thatI cool go be who you want to be.
I'm a full proponent of thatright.
But when I realized if that'show I'm gonna live my life, by
(16:05):
that standard I'm not gonna behappy.
I love nice things, I lovegoing on great trips and
everything, but I don't need itto be because I'm better than
somebody else.
It's just, this is what I do,this is what I do.
And it was hard because when Ihad the ego narcissist part of
myself, well, I mean, it's stillthere, folks.
(16:25):
I want anybody listening tothink, oh wow, he's very super
enlightened.
No, hell, no, it shows up whenI least need it to show up.
And then I'm like what are youdoing, rick?
But I think when that waspresent and then feeling the
pressures of you know, myex-wife, like we need to have
this and you have this and Ineed to be able to be a say mom,
(16:47):
we need to have the big, I wasjust like for what, for what?
And that's still kind of myphilosophy.
I always say OK, for whatDoesn't mean I won't go after
something really nice, but Ioften now put it in that little
like Peter Disha, for what?
What am I doing this for?
Because if it's not truly goingto bring me joy and happiness
(17:12):
and I won't I don't hang outwith people who are very
materialistically driven and Idon't do well with people who
are putting on the fake.
Show me who you are, just showme who you are, then I get to
decide.
If I get to show you who I am,well, I always show people who I
am.
For the most part, I'm not veryI'm pretty damn transparent
(17:33):
with scares.
A lot of people like I can'tbelieve he talks about this
stuff.
Justin (17:38):
Yeah, I love that.
I want to shift gears a littlebit because I'm curious to hear
a little bit of you know so youbeing married to a woman and
then kind of coming out later inlife and how that to have
Influenced current relationshipsand like your belonging in in
(18:02):
the that dynamic of thoserelationships, and I'm curious
to hear a little bit about thattransition in your life and how
you found belonging or re-foundbelonging Well, it really
started at a pretty young age.
Rick (18:21):
because there was a part of me that knew who I was and
I'm talking really young, likefive, six, seven years old I
knew there was something quotedifferent about me.
Justin (18:30):
Well, we only have a long time ago, Right yeah?
Rick (18:34):
but there that kind of ties to that feeling and being a
recluse.
Right, let's hide this, let'snot let people see it.
Plus, I was surrounded by somevery quote overbearing
philosophies with religion andparents, and my parents were
great, they were loving people,but this is how you're going to
be, this is who you are, and amI okay?
So then, of course, then Istarted to step in and put my
(18:54):
mask on and minimize my truth,and so that's what started to
contribute to me not feelinglike I belong.
So now let's take all of that,bring it into high school, bring
it into college.
I jumped really quickly when Imet my wife.
I was working at a universityas a food and beverage guy.
She worked for me and I'm like,oh, I connect with her, this
(19:18):
could work.
Like, okay, cool, and now I getto be, hey, I'm going to make
everybody else happy.
So how do I step out of being arecluse about this?
I diminished theoverbearingness of oh, look, he
is.
Oh, he's a great guy, he'sgetting married.
And then, you know, grandkidscame along and all this sort of
stuff.
I love my kids, I'm.
I will never regret, you know,this whole experience.
(19:38):
But suddenly, all those checkboxes.
Justin started gettingunchecked.
I don't have to hide, I don'thave to deal with the
overbearing thoughts.
I mean, yes, parents had otherbearing thoughts because I
didn't marry somebody of our ownfaith, whatever.
But the minimizing.
And suddenly guess what Ibelonged?
Oh, the family loved me, theythought I was great, and all
this sort of stuff.
So then the divorce happens.
(19:59):
Everything happened all overagain.
I felt like I had to go backinto hiding because they
wouldn't accept me for who I was.
And the overbearingness of youyou've disappointed us, you're
ruining our, you know your faithin God, and blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah.
So everything happened againand suddenly I didn't feel like
I belonged.
So then I started seeking itout in our gay community in many
ways, everything from you knowhooking up constantly and all
(20:23):
this sort of stuff to, hey, anyguy that came along, let's go,
let's put the white picket fenceup and call it a deal, right,
because it was all those.
Things were in conflict, right.
And that was really in themoment that I started putting
things in perspective of wait.
I'm just repeating this pattern.
(20:43):
I had a lot of goodrelationships not a lot, not
like thousands, but some goodrelationships building up to
when I did meet my husband andthe one thing I saw that really
brought me into thatrelationship and has probably
been the sustaining factor of 22years together.
He never wants me to hide.
(21:06):
He probably gets a littleembarrassed at times, like when
I did a stand-up comedy routinerecently, but there's not that
feeling of I can't be who I'mmeant to be.
He makes me very, very muchfeel like I belong.
And the other thing that kickedin is, in the midst of that
whole experience of coming out,I worked for an organization
(21:26):
that was very warm and welcomingof LGBTQ.
So when I stepped into my nextrole, I'm just like I'm going to
be out.
And now, in the company that Ihave the pleasure of working for
, I'm very quote out, but I doit in such a way that it's
coming from.
I'm never going to hide.
I'm never going to beoverbearing and shove this down
somebody's throat.
I'm never going to expectothers to minimize who they are.
(21:50):
Because here we go, we're rightin my brand, right.
It's such an amazing way to getto live.
And again, everyone listening.
I'm not perfect.
I don't want to come off like,oh my God, this guy, I'm not
walking on water.
I'm too fat to walk on water, Ifloat or anything, but I feel
like that's when you see, thosemoments, justin, that you're
like okay, I just keep puttingthe piece of the puzzle together
(22:11):
, the piece of the puzzletogether.
Justin (22:17):
Yeah, it's interesting because I'm hearing a couple of
the themes of finding the placeswhere it's okay for you to
belong and kind of pushing asideI don't want to say running
from, I didn't necessarily hearrunning from but pushing aside
places that aren't serving you.
Because we do.
(22:39):
I mean, if we're those of uswho have the privilege to have
that agency over our lives and Ithink that's an important thing
to call out is that noteveryone has that agency in
their lives to be able to moveinto or move out of communities
that aren't serving them well.
(23:00):
And that's where I hope to dosome of the work in getting
people to understand like, hey,we need to make room for other
people so that they don't needto.
Rick (23:11):
Yeah, Well, the thing is is, if we don't make room for
that, we're actually causing oneof the first pieces of your
process.
We are contributing to peoplebecoming recluses as soon as we
tell somebody put your mask onand this is how you have to show
up.
(23:31):
We're guilty of it and this iswhy I always talk about I'm
never going to.
I'm never going to, in thegrandest scheme of things, say I
don't want somebody to be whothey are.
My caveat to that is providedyou being who you are is not
(23:53):
emotionally or physicallyhurting somebody else, Because
the minute you're like, okay,I'm going to be an evangelical
Christian that says LGBTQ peopleshould be not on the planet,
I'm sorry you don't get to bewho you are.
You're hurting some people.
But if you say I want to be anevangelical Christian that says
help me understand you better,I'm going to probably have a
(24:15):
more open conversation aboutthat.
But if you're pushing me intowanting to go hide, you don't
fit in my world, Because thenthe overbearingness is showing
up.
You're trying to minimize meinto being who I'm supposed to
be and you are not creating anysense of belonging for anybody.
And I know it's a big call forus to kind of push those virtues
(24:37):
and values out there into theworld.
But I would love it if none ofthis had to be happening.
Right, that's a different space.
Justin (24:45):
Right, yeah, it's.
So.
I'm coming back again, I think,to that authenticity piece of
like the one of El's, and that'ssomething that I don't think it
has to be in authenticity, Idon't know.
I go back to like and I tellthe story.
A lot of I once worked withauthenticity because if you're
(25:10):
an asshole, that just means youcan get into gas, right, but
nobody wakes up in the morningand says I want to be an asshole
today.
I think it's.
Rick (25:23):
There's a certain resident of Florida, I think, does that
we won't be there.
Justin (25:31):
I mean, the thing is there is something about it's
actually tapping back to theirperceived survival and so,
thinking about whatever it is Idon't love to talk about the
extreme cases like assholes inFlorida, but I think that we in
(26:00):
general, we want to do good.
Yes, we also number one need tosurvive, and so it's when we
feel that our survival isthreatening that we are going to
exclude someone elsepotentially, but I don't think
that's our default mode.
Rick (26:16):
I mean, we're I would agree, and maybe this will help
the listeners a little bit.
This is one of the most pivotalmoments in me being trained as
a coach.
My instructor we're working onAll the coaching I do is based
in your energetic profiles andall this sort of stuff.
(26:38):
So she threw a reallyinteresting scenario at us.
So a guy goes and he murdersthree people.
How does that make you feelWell, of course, how do you
think it's going to make anybodygo?
Oh, yeah, nah, nah, nah, nah,nah, nah, right.
And so we were playing with theenergetic chart that like well,
does that make you feel angry,does it make you feel confused?
So how could it make you feellove and empathy?
(27:01):
Most of us are like no, notgoing to happen, right.
So she kind of let all thathubbub happen, right.
And then she said okay.
So now let me reposition thequestion.
This guy murders three people,but in that moment he was doing
(27:22):
the very best he could, withwhat he had at his disposal, to
be who he was.
It actually starts to change howyou perceive something, because
you start to see somebodythrough a different lens.
Maybe he was trying to belong,maybe he was acting out of some
(27:44):
sense of somebody who was reallyoverbearing in his life.
Maybe he was coming out of hisreclusive state and going this
is how I'm going to be seen.
And maybe he was minimizingsome other side of him for all
this time and suddenly it justpopped.
When you start to embrace otherpossibilities, I think that's
(28:08):
and for me that's where I feellike I got some of my humility
from was okay, but what elsecould be possible?
How else could I look at this?
Justin (28:17):
Yeah, yeah, and I think that I would also add in, like
what don't I know?
You know I've improved and I'mnot amazing at it, but I've
improved at withholding judgmenton many, many things, because I
(28:38):
don't know the whole story andI want to wait until I know the
whole story before I startmaking a lot of judgment, and
it's interesting.
So over the past three yearssince I started writing the book
, I have found new depths ofallowing grace for others, for
myself, because I'm like, if I'mgoing to write this book about
(29:03):
accepting others, wherebelonging is created at the
intersection of authenticity andacceptance, so if I have to
really think about how do I findacceptance for others that may
not have the same values as me,because that's what I'm asking
of people I have to be able todo that, and so it has brought
me to allowing space forinformation that I don't know.
Rick (29:29):
A storeAnnizen, and when you put that out in the world,
it also feeds the fire for theworld to bring that back to you.
How can the world show meempathy?
How can the world show meanother way of looking at
something?
It's hard because we as humanslike, nope, this is the way I
(29:51):
see things.
Okay, that's fine.
But what happens when you sayit's not this black and white?
I mean, you know the work thatI do and probably what you do.
I can't see things as black andwhite.
There's too many nuances tolike what's gonna happen when
somebody comes out of the closetand I can't say, well, here,
just this, exactly what's gonnahappen?
This gonna happen, yourex-wives gonna do this, your
(30:13):
ex-husband's gonna do this.
It doesn't happen that way.
Yeah, I can't even tell youthat you're gonna get embraced
by the entire LGBTQ community,because that's not gonna happen
either.
But when we look at it fromthat other side, justin and go
and again, this is work.
This is daily work for me totry to really like bite my
tongue with certain people inFlorida To just see things and
(30:37):
like, okay, well, let's see.
But how else can I see this?
How else can I try tounderstand that, and this is
where I think we as a societyright now are really struggling
to like exercise this empathyenergy, but through work like
what you're doing, because if wecould have any empathy, how
does that then create morebelonging?
(30:59):
Instantly just having empathycreates belonging.
It says I see you, I hear you.
I may not agree with you, butthere's at least a doorway
that's now a little more open,right, I still see you as a
human Right.
Justin (31:17):
Yeah, I love in this conversation.
I think we have definitely hiton authenticity finding yourself
, understanding yourself, andthen also that acceptance piece
of finding empathy for others,allowing grace, understanding
that we don't have all theinformation all the time.
So I feel like we havedefinitely hit both sides of the
(31:39):
scale there on acceptance andauthenticity.
So, rick, I wanna thank you foryour time today.
I'm just noticing we I'm tryingto keep it to 20 to 30 minutes
and I think we're gonna be rightin there.
So I've enjoyed theconversation.
I have a feeling we're probablygonna keep talking about this.
I have a feeling.
Rick (31:56):
so I have a feeling too, and thank you for the
opportunity.
I always I love getting to beon somebody else's podcast and
go, let's jam, let's jam andjust see what we can throw
throughout there in the worldthat maybe will impact somebody
or several people's lives or getsomebody thinking differently.
So thank you for giving me theprivilege of being on your
podcast then.
Justin (32:15):
Thank you so much, rick, and where of things that you
might want people to find,you've got your podcast
available kind of everywhereright, and it's called.
Rick (32:25):
there's two of them.
The first one is LifeUncloseted and the second one is
40 plus gay men, gay talk, Imean.
Find them anywhere podcasts areat.
And then, if you wanted tofollow me on anything Instagram,
the Rick Clemens or my website,rickclemens C-L-E-M-O-N-Scom.
That's something by me.
Justin (32:44):
Rick.
Well, thank you so much forjoining me today.
I enjoyed the conversationHopefully everyone else does and
join us again for anotherepisode of the Creating Bullying
Podcast.
Thanks, upbeat music playing.
Welcome to another episode of the Creating
Belonging podcast.
Today, I have with me RickClemens.
And Rick, I'd love for you justto introduce yourself and your
own words.
Rick (00:21):
Yeah, so I'm a guy who struggled with belonging for my
entire life, even at 60 yearsold.
There's times I still struggle,but I'm a gay dad and I let
that whole experience of comingout of the closet drive the rest
of what happened in my life, tothe point that it became a
(00:41):
business for me, and I'm a coachand author, a podcaster myself,
and I've turned the wholeconcept of coming out and
belonging into something thatreally helps people step into
their own world and realize theycan let go of a lot of things
that they were doing.
A lot of your stuff, honestly,is very similar to us, I think.
(01:05):
As a community, we findourselves reclusive at times.
We deal with overbearingthoughts and processes that keep
us in the closet.
We minimize who we are to helpkeep everybody else happy and
then, lo and behold, we don'tfeel like we ever belong.
So that's my story and I thinkI'm going to stick to it for now
(01:25):
.
Justin (01:26):
I love it, rick, I love you're already bringing the
model in.
Rick (01:32):
You told me that's what you want me to do, not kidding.
Justin (01:36):
You're just showing that you've done your homework,
which I love.
I haven't done my homework.
Rick (01:40):
Do I get an A?
That's all I want to know.
Do I get an A for the A?
Yeah, so you get an A Awesome.
Justin (01:47):
So one other thing I like to do you revealed some
identities, but I also like tojust kind of ground us and make
sure there's any other, see ifthere's any other identities
that you want to share with ouraudience, as most are just
listening.
Rick (02:01):
Yeah, I feel like there's this other piece of myself
that's oh you already everybodyheard I'm gay.
But after that experience offinally coming into my truth, I
realized I started opening otherclosets of my life and going
this is who I want to be.
And I was very reclusive aboutwanting to be my own business
owner and have my own business.
(02:21):
And it's interesting, justin,to see how that one quote, one
moment of life which wasn't one,it was every ongoing moment of
life opened me to therealization of how much I was
missing out on belonging so muchin my world in so many spaces.
So I became an entrepreneur, Istarted speaking on stages,
(02:42):
started doing my podcast andsuddenly Rick's a pretty happy
camper because he opened himselfup to like hey, this is what it
feels good for me to belong inthe world.
Yeah, faster than me.
Justin (02:54):
Yeah, I know I've got to say I've been, I've been out of
my own for the past year andthere's something so liberating
about it and I get to do thework that I love doing every day
and make a choice about it.
Yep, and I've been so happy soI totally get it.
Thank you for sharing.
And I love the work that you doin, you know, coaching other
(03:16):
gay individuals, you know, intheir journey, which I'm sure
maybe that will come into ourconversation.
But I guess, to get us started,you know, have you what, what,
what life experiences?
As you were going through thework of creating belonging at
the book, what life experiencescame to mind for you as you were
reflecting on your journey?
Rick (03:39):
Well, I think the biggest one is from a very young age.
I I never had ever really feltlike I fit in in places.
I really strived hard and oneof the biggest lessons I learned
about myself in striving tobelong is a lot of times I was
striving to belong to the wrongspace or with the wrong people
(04:01):
and that revealed itself in somevery interesting ways as I grew
my business and I got aroundsome pretty well known
entrepreneurs out there in theentrepreneurial space and it's
almost like I inserted myself intheir world, which was fine.
But guess what I was wanting?
I was wanting to belong.
So I'm like well, why aren'tthey accepting me?
(04:21):
Or why and the best example ofthat is Chris Gillibow, who used
to run World Domination Summitin Portland, oregon.
He's a New York Timesbestseller.
He's written the book a hundreddollar startup and a few other
amazing books Went to theconference, kind of got to know
him.
He offered to be on my podcast acouple of times and all the way
(04:41):
through that, justin, I waslike I just want to be on the
WDS stage, I just want to be onthe WSDH, and I got really angry
at times because I was neverbeing seen for who I was and I
reached out to their team andlike, hey, you know, hey, you
know, here's how we usually doit.
When we find somebody that wewant, we come after them.
I'm like, okay, there was a lotof growth there, but I was
trying to belong because if Icould do this then I'd fit in
(05:04):
Right.
And then one day, recording thepodcast with Chris after I
launched 40 plus gay man, gaytalk and he's not gay, I was
actually with a differentpodcast at the time was 40 plus
real man, real talk.
I was talking to real guysabout the stuff we guys need to
talk about.
We got done.
I had already kind of let thatdream go Like, okay, you know,
(05:24):
seven years going to theconference.
No, I love going to theconference.
And Guess what Chris said haveyou ever been on the WDS stage?
Of course I wanted to kind ofslap him.
I'm like you rough the frickinprogram and you should know
right.
But after seven years ofMultiple speakers and all this
sort of stuff, you know I, youknow, I used to be a meeting
(05:44):
planner and there it was Justinand dropped in my lap the
opportunity to speak.
But here's the difference IWasn't Striving and yearning
like this is gonna be the thing,and actually that's one of my
proudest moments speaking onstage, because I was just like,
okay, this is, let's go havesome fun, let's just go do this
(06:06):
because I get to get back tothis community that I really
love and I get to go.
It was such a big shift for me.
It brought me out of thisinteresting space of going
here's why I'm doing this andgot me into a space up.
Here's the real reason.
Mm-hmm started unlocking otherways that I saw myself being
overbearing in my own way aboutrelationships, minimizing other
(06:31):
people's talents, a lot of timesholding up like I can't believe
I didn't get the attention fromthis person or that person or
this person that I wanted.
So then I would, I wouldliterally like hold up.
I do my work, I do my life andpeople say we don't see much
anymore out there on Internet,and you know social media and
you know I had to grow up.
(06:52):
I had to realize that mybelonging was me creating
belonging in the right wayversus my idea of what belonging
.
Justin (07:02):
Well, yeah.
So I'm curious how did thatshift happen for you?
Rick (07:08):
Humility.
I Started realizing and I had afew mentors saying you know,
rick, here's the thing, you area brilliant guy, you got.
You got a great message in it.
But and one, one mentor inparticular said and you got it,
you got a huge effin ego man.
I was like, okay, that hurt,but then I was Willing enough.
(07:37):
And I think this is part of whenwe think about how do we belong
or how do we move it throughsome of these things.
That's in your beautifulprocess.
You have to be able to see it,to believe it, and then you have
to embrace it and fix it.
Hmm, and I grew up in anarcissistic home and I thought
I'm never gonna be that and Iworked really hard not to be
(07:59):
that, except I was In my own way.
We're not not near to level.
You know that my father was.
But and that was the shift man,the humility and realizing
Maybe the reason I don't belongis people see ego, a little bit
of a narcissist in me.
It's always got to be the way Iwant to get things done.
(08:20):
And it hurt.
It hurt to see yourself thatway.
I do some big deep breaths andsaid, okay, let's start doing
some work.
That's why, when I reallyentered into that personal
development stuff, was that atthat time.
Justin (08:34):
Okay, so and so that was the catalyst was kind of like
Getting more into your own kindof personal development.
Rick (08:42):
Well, I figured, if I'm gonna be coaching people about,
you know, being themselves andyou know, moving out of their
fears and excuses, I had to beliving and breathing my walk and
talk.
I Didn't want to be out ofintegrity.
I live.
I lived 36 years of my life.
I'm integrity before I came outof the closet.
And it's interesting justbecause everything kind of comes
(09:03):
back to that experience, like,well, that was the real catalyst
, but that also was the catalystthat fed the other catalysts
like, even to this day, continue.
There's things that happen, youknow, in the last few months,
where I'm like, oh, that that'snot how I'm gonna fit in, that's
not how I need to feel, like Ineed to fit in, or that's not
what I need to be doing, ordon't isolate.
(09:25):
Because of that, it'sinteresting.
I mean, when you reach out tome like, oh, this is really
interesting because there's alot of alignment in what you
Speak on what I do, mm-hmm.
And I think, for many people,if they really realized what
they can do, when they startembracing what it looks like to
be, you know, your own recluse,or if you're letting overbearing
(09:46):
us be part of who you are, youminimize everybody else, you
minimize your feelings.
I'm a huge low, you know it'sokay, I'm good.
Yeah, I want to take care ofeverybody else, and that's
really detrimental to my ownwell-being, so Mm-hmm.
Justin (10:01):
That's how I love your.
I love that you're in thisplace of you know, finding
belonging through your ownenlightenment, through your own
Reflection of who you are, anddeveloping yourself, because
that's I keep.
So I'm digging deeper into justthoughts around the creating
belonging work and more researcharound authenticity and what
(10:23):
have been having this week, justthis week, having very
interesting conversations aroundAuthenticity and you know,
authenticity I don't know if yousaw is like the, the word of
2023, um, but I think it's beingused in a way that isn't A way
(10:43):
that serves us best.
Like often, like I think we seeauthenticity, a lot of this,
like it's actually fitting in,rather than digging into deep
self-awareness, self-reflection,understanding who we are and
then showing up with intentionOf who we really are and want to
(11:05):
be for the world, not, um, tofit in in the world.
Rick (11:10):
Yep, I see authenticity as uh, maybe it's because I just
interviewed somebody from mypodcast and we talked a lot
about radical integrity.
When you can be radicallyauthentic, that's saying I'm not
gonna, I'm gonna be my ownunique self.
I'm gonna allow that piece ofme to be truly seen.
(11:32):
That doesn't mean you get to gobe a jerk, that's not what I'm
getting at but I would muchrather.
I mean I'll give you a goodexample.
When I speak on stage, don't doit as much as I used to.
You will never, ever, ever, seeme in a suit and tie.
In fact, you'll be lucky if I'meven wearing khakis and a
tucked-in shirt, becauseauthentic rick comes out.
(11:55):
Jeans, untucked shirt, brightpair of shoes, bright colored
pair of shoes, because that's mybold, big energy.
I wanna just be comfortable inwho I am.
Plus, I move a lot on stage andeverything, and I tell my
meeting planners when they hireme, like here's the deal I will
never be the buttoned-up suitand tie guy, but I'm gonna
deliver like nobody's businessto make sure your audience has
(12:18):
an experience as atransformation.
And the way I'm able to do thatis I get to be authentically
myself on stage, the same linebeing authentically right now
having this conversation withyou about serving your audience.
It's just not gonna be in asuit and tie.
Justin (12:32):
Yeah, I never had anybody push that.
Yeah, and that's why they'rehiring you, right For you, for
the unique perspective that youbring, for the voice that you
have.
So, yeah, and I think that'sgreat kind of table stakes to
put out there, because ifsomebody was like, no, actually
we need you to wear a suit, andyou'd be like, well, that's not
me, so I'm not gonna be doingyou a service because I can't be
(12:56):
authentic in this work.
I love that.
Rick (13:01):
And so another part of my business is I actually coach
public speakers on buildingtheir speaking businesses.
This is one of the things Idrive home.
If you show up differently onstage than how you market
yourself on your website, that'sthe surest way to ensure you
never get another speaking gig,or vice versa.
(13:21):
You need to show upauthentically who you are.
When you show up and again Ithink back to your process it's
really understanding how youperceive yourself belonging in
the world, and not justperceived.
It is like embodying that piecein the world.
Mm-hmm, it's huge.
Justin (13:43):
Yeah, yeah, there are some other things.
I wanna go down another littlerabbit hole and the way that you
were talking about kind of thisego, kind of pre-enlightenment
and not that it's the onlyenlightenment that you've had,
I'm sure, but like thatparticular one of that ego and
kind of the hardworking it justmakes me think of my experience
(14:07):
as a gay man and how I wasalways trying to be better or
better than Yup, because then ifI'm better than like you can't
look down on me for whateverreason like I'm still doing
better and that is something Ithink I'm still trying to shake
that a little bit.
(14:27):
But I'm curious that resonateswith you and your journey.
Rick (14:32):
Well, I think it ties back into okay, if I had this mentor
really like me, then I'm oh,I'm in that circle now I'm
better.
And then if I do this, I mean Idon't really watch the
downloads on my podcast becauseI'm like I get emails and stuff.
I'm like cool people arelistening.
That's my barometer.
(14:55):
Yes, I see the numbers, butthat's whole better than and I
think we as gay men, we kind ofhave to be that way, so to speak
.
I'm saying that in a waybecause I'm not saying we have
to, but we kind of think we haveto be that way Because we're so
driven in the community.
We got to have the abs and thebiceps and this and the cars and
(15:20):
the right and so much of itgets judged around that.
And I lived kind of adjacent tothat life for a while.
I lived in Orange County,california, and there was a
perception of how you weresupposed to be.
And that was when I was marriedto my wife and there was a lot
(15:40):
of push and, honestly, had I notcome out of the closet, we
probably would have got divorcedanyway, because I just wasn't
gonna be what she wanted.
I just couldn't do that and itwas ooh, this is how you get to
be known, this is how you get tobe who you are in the world,
and it's one of the things thatI cool go be who you want to be.
I'm a full proponent of thatright.
But when I realized if that'show I'm gonna live my life, by
(16:05):
that standard I'm not gonna behappy.
I love nice things, I lovegoing on great trips and
everything, but I don't need itto be because I'm better than
somebody else.
It's just, this is what I do,this is what I do.
And it was hard because when Ihad the ego narcissist part of
myself, well, I mean, it's stillthere, folks.
(16:25):
I want anybody listening tothink, oh wow, he's very super
enlightened.
No, hell, no, it shows up whenI least need it to show up.
And then I'm like what are youdoing, rick?
But I think when that waspresent and then feeling the
pressures of you know, myex-wife, like we need to have
this and you have this and Ineed to be able to be a say mom,
(16:47):
we need to have the big, I wasjust like for what, for what?
And that's still kind of myphilosophy.
I always say OK, for whatDoesn't mean I won't go after
something really nice, but Ioften now put it in that little
like Peter Disha, for what?
What am I doing this for?
Because if it's not truly goingto bring me joy and happiness
(17:12):
and I won't I don't hang outwith people who are very
materialistically driven and Idon't do well with people who
are putting on the fake.
Show me who you are, just showme who you are, then I get to
decide.
If I get to show you who I am,well, I always show people who I
am.
For the most part, I'm not veryI'm pretty damn transparent
(17:33):
with scares.
A lot of people like I can'tbelieve he talks about this
stuff.
Justin (17:38):
Yeah, I love that.
I want to shift gears a littlebit because I'm curious to hear
a little bit of you know so youbeing married to a woman and
then kind of coming out later inlife and how that to have
Influenced current relationshipsand like your belonging in in
(18:02):
the that dynamic of thoserelationships, and I'm curious
to hear a little bit about thattransition in your life and how
you found belonging or re-foundbelonging Well, it really
started at a pretty young age.
Rick (18:21):
because there was a part of me that knew who I was and
I'm talking really young, likefive, six, seven years old I
knew there was something quotedifferent about me.
Justin (18:30):
Well, we only have a long time ago, Right yeah?
Rick (18:34):
but there that kind of ties to that feeling and being a
recluse.
Right, let's hide this, let'snot let people see it.
Plus, I was surrounded by somevery quote overbearing
philosophies with religion andparents, and my parents were
great, they were loving people,but this is how you're going to
be, this is who you are, and amI okay?
So then, of course, then Istarted to step in and put my
(18:54):
mask on and minimize my truth,and so that's what started to
contribute to me not feelinglike I belong.
So now let's take all of that,bring it into high school, bring
it into college.
I jumped really quickly when Imet my wife.
I was working at a universityas a food and beverage guy.
She worked for me and I'm like,oh, I connect with her, this
(19:18):
could work.
Like, okay, cool, and now I getto be, hey, I'm going to make
everybody else happy.
So how do I step out of being arecluse about this?
I diminished theoverbearingness of oh, look, he
is.
Oh, he's a great guy, he'sgetting married.
And then, you know, grandkidscame along and all this sort of
stuff.
I love my kids, I'm.
I will never regret, you know,this whole experience.
(19:38):
But suddenly, all those checkboxes.
Justin started gettingunchecked.
I don't have to hide, I don'thave to deal with the
overbearing thoughts.
I mean, yes, parents had otherbearing thoughts because I
didn't marry somebody of our ownfaith, whatever.
But the minimizing.
And suddenly guess what Ibelonged?
Oh, the family loved me, theythought I was great, and all
this sort of stuff.
So then the divorce happens.
(19:59):
Everything happened all overagain.
I felt like I had to go backinto hiding because they
wouldn't accept me for who I was.
And the overbearingness of youyou've disappointed us, you're
ruining our, you know your faithin God, and blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah.
So everything happened againand suddenly I didn't feel like
I belonged.
So then I started seeking itout in our gay community in many
ways, everything from you knowhooking up constantly and all
(20:23):
this sort of stuff to, hey, anyguy that came along, let's go,
let's put the white picket fenceup and call it a deal, right,
because it was all those.
Things were in conflict, right.
And that was really in themoment that I started putting
things in perspective of wait.
I'm just repeating this pattern.
(20:43):
I had a lot of goodrelationships not a lot, not
like thousands, but some goodrelationships building up to
when I did meet my husband andthe one thing I saw that really
brought me into thatrelationship and has probably
been the sustaining factor of 22years together.
He never wants me to hide.
(21:06):
He probably gets a littleembarrassed at times, like when
I did a stand-up comedy routinerecently, but there's not that
feeling of I can't be who I'mmeant to be.
He makes me very, very muchfeel like I belong.
And the other thing that kickedin is, in the midst of that
whole experience of coming out,I worked for an organization
(21:26):
that was very warm and welcomingof LGBTQ.
So when I stepped into my nextrole, I'm just like I'm going to
be out.
And now, in the company that Ihave the pleasure of working for
, I'm very quote out, but I doit in such a way that it's
coming from.
I'm never going to hide.
I'm never going to beoverbearing and shove this down
somebody's throat.
I'm never going to expectothers to minimize who they are.
(21:50):
Because here we go, we're rightin my brand, right.
It's such an amazing way to getto live.
And again, everyone listening.
I'm not perfect.
I don't want to come off like,oh my God, this guy, I'm not
walking on water.
I'm too fat to walk on water, Ifloat or anything, but I feel
like that's when you see, thosemoments, justin, that you're
like okay, I just keep puttingthe piece of the puzzle together
(22:11):
, the piece of the puzzletogether.
Justin (22:17):
Yeah, it's interesting because I'm hearing a couple of
the themes of finding the placeswhere it's okay for you to
belong and kind of pushing asideI don't want to say running
from, I didn't necessarily hearrunning from but pushing aside
places that aren't serving you.
Because we do.
(22:39):
I mean, if we're those of uswho have the privilege to have
that agency over our lives and Ithink that's an important thing
to call out is that noteveryone has that agency in
their lives to be able to moveinto or move out of communities
that aren't serving them well.
(23:00):
And that's where I hope to dosome of the work in getting
people to understand like, hey,we need to make room for other
people so that they don't needto.
Rick (23:11):
Yeah, Well, the thing is is, if we don't make room for
that, we're actually causing oneof the first pieces of your
process.
We are contributing to peoplebecoming recluses as soon as we
tell somebody put your mask onand this is how you have to show
up.
(23:31):
We're guilty of it and this iswhy I always talk about I'm
never going to.
I'm never going to, in thegrandest scheme of things, say I
don't want somebody to be whothey are.
My caveat to that is providedyou being who you are is not
(23:53):
emotionally or physicallyhurting somebody else, Because
the minute you're like, okay,I'm going to be an evangelical
Christian that says LGBTQ peopleshould be not on the planet,
I'm sorry you don't get to bewho you are.
You're hurting some people.
But if you say I want to be anevangelical Christian that says
help me understand you better,I'm going to probably have a
(24:15):
more open conversation aboutthat.
But if you're pushing me intowanting to go hide, you don't
fit in my world, Because thenthe overbearingness is showing
up.
You're trying to minimize meinto being who I'm supposed to
be and you are not creating anysense of belonging for anybody.
And I know it's a big call forus to kind of push those virtues
(24:37):
and values out there into theworld.
But I would love it if none ofthis had to be happening.
Right, that's a different space.
Justin (24:45):
Right, yeah, it's.
So.
I'm coming back again, I think,to that authenticity piece of
like the one of El's, and that'ssomething that I don't think it
has to be in authenticity, Idon't know.
I go back to like and I tellthe story.
A lot of I once worked withauthenticity because if you're
(25:10):
an asshole, that just means youcan get into gas, right, but
nobody wakes up in the morningand says I want to be an asshole
today.
I think it's.
Rick (25:23):
There's a certain resident of Florida, I think, does that
we won't be there.
Justin (25:31):
I mean, the thing is there is something about it's
actually tapping back to theirperceived survival and so,
thinking about whatever it is Idon't love to talk about the
extreme cases like assholes inFlorida, but I think that we in
(26:00):
general, we want to do good.
Yes, we also number one need tosurvive, and so it's when we
feel that our survival isthreatening that we are going to
exclude someone elsepotentially, but I don't think
that's our default mode.
Rick (26:16):
I mean, we're I would agree, and maybe this will help
the listeners a little bit.
This is one of the most pivotalmoments in me being trained as
a coach.
My instructor we're working onAll the coaching I do is based
in your energetic profiles andall this sort of stuff.
(26:38):
So she threw a reallyinteresting scenario at us.
So a guy goes and he murdersthree people.
How does that make you feelWell, of course, how do you
think it's going to make anybodygo?
Oh, yeah, nah, nah, nah, nah,nah, nah, right.
And so we were playing with theenergetic chart that like well,
does that make you feel angry,does it make you feel confused?
So how could it make you feellove and empathy?
(27:01):
Most of us are like no, notgoing to happen, right.
So she kind of let all thathubbub happen, right.
And then she said okay.
So now let me reposition thequestion.
This guy murders three people,but in that moment he was doing
(27:22):
the very best he could, withwhat he had at his disposal, to
be who he was.
It actually starts to change howyou perceive something, because
you start to see somebodythrough a different lens.
Maybe he was trying to belong,maybe he was acting out of some
(27:44):
sense of somebody who was reallyoverbearing in his life.
Maybe he was coming out of hisreclusive state and going this
is how I'm going to be seen.
And maybe he was minimizingsome other side of him for all
this time and suddenly it justpopped.
When you start to embrace otherpossibilities, I think that's
(28:08):
and for me that's where I feellike I got some of my humility
from was okay, but what elsecould be possible?
How else could I look at this?
Justin (28:17):
Yeah, yeah, and I think that I would also add in, like
what don't I know?
You know I've improved and I'mnot amazing at it, but I've
improved at withholding judgmenton many, many things, because I
(28:38):
don't know the whole story andI want to wait until I know the
whole story before I startmaking a lot of judgment, and
it's interesting.
So over the past three yearssince I started writing the book
, I have found new depths ofallowing grace for others, for
myself, because I'm like, if I'mgoing to write this book about
(29:03):
accepting others, wherebelonging is created at the
intersection of authenticity andacceptance, so if I have to
really think about how do I findacceptance for others that may
not have the same values as me,because that's what I'm asking
of people I have to be able todo that, and so it has brought
me to allowing space forinformation that I don't know.
Rick (29:29):
A storeAnnizen, and when you put that out in the world,
it also feeds the fire for theworld to bring that back to you.
How can the world show meempathy?
How can the world show meanother way of looking at
something?
It's hard because we as humanslike, nope, this is the way I
(29:51):
see things.
Okay, that's fine.
But what happens when you sayit's not this black and white?
I mean, you know the work thatI do and probably what you do.
I can't see things as black andwhite.
There's too many nuances tolike what's gonna happen when
somebody comes out of the closetand I can't say, well, here,
just this, exactly what's gonnahappen?
This gonna happen, yourex-wives gonna do this, your
(30:13):
ex-husband's gonna do this.
It doesn't happen that way.
Yeah, I can't even tell youthat you're gonna get embraced
by the entire LGBTQ community,because that's not gonna happen
either.
But when we look at it fromthat other side, justin and go
and again, this is work.
This is daily work for me totry to really like bite my
tongue with certain people inFlorida To just see things and
(30:37):
like, okay, well, let's see.
But how else can I see this?
How else can I try tounderstand that, and this is
where I think we as a societyright now are really struggling
to like exercise this empathyenergy, but through work like
what you're doing, because if wecould have any empathy, how
does that then create morebelonging?
(30:59):
Instantly just having empathycreates belonging.
It says I see you, I hear you.
I may not agree with you, butthere's at least a doorway
that's now a little more open,right, I still see you as a
human Right.
Justin (31:17):
Yeah, I love in this conversation.
I think we have definitely hiton authenticity finding yourself
, understanding yourself, andthen also that acceptance piece
of finding empathy for others,allowing grace, understanding
that we don't have all theinformation all the time.
So I feel like we havedefinitely hit both sides of the
(31:39):
scale there on acceptance andauthenticity.
So, rick, I wanna thank you foryour time today.
I'm just noticing we I'm tryingto keep it to 20 to 30 minutes
and I think we're gonna be rightin there.
So I've enjoyed theconversation.
I have a feeling we're probablygonna keep talking about this.
I have a feeling.
Rick (31:56):
so I have a feeling too, and thank you for the
opportunity.
I always I love getting to beon somebody else's podcast and
go, let's jam, let's jam andjust see what we can throw
throughout there in the worldthat maybe will impact somebody
or several people's lives or getsomebody thinking differently.
So thank you for giving me theprivilege of being on your
podcast then.
Justin (32:15):
Thank you so much, rick, and where of things that you
might want people to find,you've got your podcast
available kind of everywhereright, and it's called.
Rick (32:25):
there's two of them.
The first one is LifeUncloseted and the second one is
40 plus gay men, gay talk, Imean.
Find them anywhere podcasts areat.
And then, if you wanted tofollow me on anything Instagram,
the Rick Clemens or my website,rickclemens C-L-E-M-O-N-Scom.
That's something by me.
Justin (32:44):
Rick.
Well, thank you so much forjoining me today.
I enjoyed the conversationHopefully everyone else does and
join us again for anotherepisode of the Creating Bullying
Podcast.
Thanks, upbeat music playing.
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