May 29, 2024 • 37 mins
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The vibrant streets of Chicago have sculpted a unique narrative for Jim Conti, Talent Partner at Hyde Park Venture Partners, who joins us to weave a tale of personal growth and professional reinvention. From the comfort of familiar neighborhoods to the strategic boardrooms of venture capital, Jim unpacks how his cherished roles as a community advocate, plant and dog parent, shape his worldview. Follow along as we trace Jim's journey, examining the profound impact of our origins on the perspectives we carry forward, and how identities—be they geographical, familial, or based in advocacy—craft the lens through which we see the world.
Ever found yourself recalibrating your social energy to resonate with a friend's vibe? Our latest conversation delves into the delicate dance of friendship dynamics where empathy and respect are the lead performers. A candid anecdote reveals my own evolution in understanding a friend’s need for privacy, casting a light on the art of compromise and the value of deep connections. We navigate the intricacies of extroversion meeting introversion, discovering the harmonious middle ground that fortifies bonds and honors individuality.
In the final act of our discussion, we turn the spotlight on the workplace, a stage where identities converge and the quest for authenticity is a performance unto itself. We share experiences from LGBTQ perspectives, celebrating the strides toward visibility and inclusion, yet acknowledging the complexities that linger. From the courage of revealing one's true self in professional settings to the broader implications of representation and safety in self-expression, we honor the journey toward workplaces that not only accommodate but embrace the full spectrum of individual diversity. Join us on this insightful voyage as we embrace the ebb and flow of personal and professional identities with Jim Conti.
Find Jim on LinkedIn or Hyde Park Ventures.
You can order your copy of Creating Belonging on Amazon.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Justin (00:10):
Hello, welcome to another episode of the Creating
Belonging podcast.
Today, I have with me Jim Conti.
We actually you know what'shilarious is Jim?
I was introduced to by one ofour season one guests, ld.
I think you guys went tocollege together, right?
I think that's right.
Yeah, the original connectionthere.
(00:31):
Yep, yeah, yeah.
And so Jim and I have connectedsince and, funny enough, we
actually live like a block ortwo from each other Like almost
across the street.
Jim (00:41):
Yeah, it's kind of funny Small world moment for sure.
Justin (00:43):
But connected by someone who lives in LA, almost across
the street.
Yeah, it's kind of funny Smallworld moment for sure.
Connected by someone who livesin LA?
Yeah, I love that.
So, janet, if you wouldn't mindintroducing yourself to our
listeners.
Jim (00:56):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, thank you so much forhaving me here today.
To everyone listening, my nameis Jim Conti.
In the professional world, Icurrently serve as the talent
partner at Hyde Park VenturePartners, which is an early
stage venture capital firmheadquartered in Chicago.
My role I do HR consultingacross the portfolio, so I come
from an HR operator seat used torun HR at software companies
(01:16):
here in Chicago and now I get toadvise companies on that
practice, which is a lot of fun.
I've been doing this for alittle over two years now.
Lot of fun.
Been doing this for a littleover two years now.
Um, and on the personal side,uh, as justin mentioned, live in
the chicago, um, the chicagoecosystem, but specifically in
the andersonville neighborhood.
Um, I've been here since 2007and so very much, uh, consider
myself a chicagoan at this point.
Um, but, um, uh, loving, lovinglife in the city and uh, love,
(01:40):
love to get out and explore thevarious neighborhoods we have
here.
So it's a, it's a great spotthank you.
Justin (01:45):
You know what's funny?
I've been in chicago since 2006and so, like we've been in
chicago the same time frame, welive, you know, a block from
each other.
Jim (01:54):
Seriously, it took a mutual connection in la and yet here
we are, and yet here we arechatting on a podcast.
I I love it, I love it.
Justin (02:03):
So I think our listeners are typically used to kind of
disclosing of identities upfront.
So just before we get started,you know you introduced yourself
a little bit, but if there areany other identities that you
wouldn't mind sharing with ustoday, yeah, of course, of
course.
Jim (02:21):
Yeah, I think it's so interesting to talk about
identities because you canalmost pick it apart from any
different lens or perspective.
But some of the like kind ofbigger buckets that I'd say that
very much kind of make up how Iview my seat in the world or my
perspective in the world from acommunity perspective and, and
(02:46):
um, uh, very much, uh, a part ofmy life today.
Um, and so, uh, that'sdefinitely a big part of it.
Um, I also identify as both aplant dad and a dog dad, and so
I've got two dogs goldenretriever and a yellow lab um,
and a few more plants that I'mI'm proud to admit, but um, uh,
across both of them they are,they are the things that help me
slow down in this world.
I live at a pretty fast pace,so my plants and my pups they
help me just kind of take a stepback and take a deep breath.
(03:06):
So I appreciate that.
I mentioned before that I movedto Chicago in 2007 and been here
since.
So, while I do identify as aChicagoan, I grew up in New
Hampshire and I think thatthat's a pretty special place to
grow up.
It's not a big state.
There's not a lot of us there,but it's a place that I think
really formed a lot of who I amtoday and the community that I
was a part of there as well.
I went to college in Boston.
(03:27):
I went to Boston College, whichis interesting because it's a
Catholic university, but I'm notCatholic myself, but the way
that that played out in kind ofmy lived experience at the
university was very much a focuson volunteership and service to
others and really thinkingabout how we were charting a
course that did well by othersin the path that we took after
university.
And so, while the Catholicismpiece is not a part that I
(03:49):
identify with, that service toothers element, that
volunteerism, that giving backto community, is something that
was deeply entrenched in me atthat time and I would say is a
big kind of hallmark of how Iinteract with the world today.
And then I think the final onethat I'll put on there is that
I'm a traveler.
I love to go explore new places.
I mentioned about exploringneighborhoods in Chicago but
like, give me a plane ticket,put me on a plane, let me go
(04:10):
explore some neighborhoodssomewhere else in the world.
Whenever I travel, I rarely buytickets for things.
I mostly just like leave myAirbnb or hotel and just wander
for the day, love to just seewhere the steps take me, and so
just love to explore, travel,experience new things, and so
very much an openness to that aswell.
So I feel like that's a bigpart of who I am too.
Justin (04:30):
Yeah, I love that.
Two things I want to pick outthere.
Number one is identity by kindof geographic region that you
grew up in.
I think some people, somepeople anchor in that like maybe
if they, if you've moved awayfrom that, um, and I, I guess I
talk about it a lot but I don'tthink of it as much as an
identity like growing up inrural iowa very much shaped how
(04:51):
I see the world.
Jim (04:53):
Um, although you know I'm a chicagoman at this point, you
know right, exactly, I think youknow we as humans love to find
shortcuts, right, like we ashumans love to find these like
cool.
This means that and then I, you,you know, kind of figure
something out.
And so for me at least a littlebit, to clarify, like I grew up
in New Hampshire, my, my dad,still lives in the same house.
They came home from thehospital to when I was born and
(05:14):
I realized that that issomething that's pretty unique
in the world these days.
So like when I go home for theholidays, like I actually am
still going to my childhoodbedroom, which is kind of weird,
but I think that, like you know, being able to kind of say,
like I grew up in New Hampshire,it's part of New England, my
dad's still there there'selements of value.
There's elements of how youcommunicate or interact with the
world.
There's ways that you know justpolitical perspectives or
(05:35):
whatever, that it can kind ofcommunicate or encapsulate a
little bit no-transcriptChicagoan and a plant dad Right,
and just get those kinds ofdifferent perspectives and give
(05:56):
people some of those easiershortcuts to understand who I am
.
Justin (05:59):
Yeah, yeah, I love that.
And the second one is, um thehaving attended a Catholic
university, so I don't thinkabout it often, but I um went to
DePaul here in Chicago Catholic, and that was very much a part
of the university mission.
Was, you know, service toothers?
That, um, you know, I wasn'traised Catholic and I don't I'm
(06:22):
not Catholic today, but I lovethat about my experience was
that the service aspect of youknow of education.
Jim (06:31):
Yep, yep, very much so, and I think that it's interesting
because when I think about thepath that I'm on in life, I
don't think I would be on thiscall with you today had I not
attended a Catholic university,which is kind of a really funny
thing to say.
But the thing that brought me toChicago was a post-grad service
program that I've learned aboutwhile at VC, and the openness
(06:52):
to doing a post-grad serviceprogram as opposed to going
directly into a job was neversomething I thought about before
being exposed to the university, right.
So it's kind of a funny thingto kind of note that the
Catholic nature of theuniversity I went to put me on a
path that got me to Chicago andgot me on the path of things
you know, decisions that I'vemade across time to be able to
get here, and so, while it's apart of my background that I
(07:12):
don't identify with, there's theCatholicism piece specifically,
that what that meant at theplace that I was at put me on a
path to get me where I am today,which is still just.
It's kind of wild to map thatback a little bit.
Justin (07:24):
Yeah, yeah.
I sometimes reflect on thosethings of like that one little
thing, that pivotal thing, thatlike landed where I am today,
right, small decisions.
It makes me think of a moviesliding doors, yeah.
Jim (07:40):
I haven't heard that reference in a while.
I love it.
Okay, I haven't heard thatreference in a while, justin,
that's showing our age.
Justin (07:45):
I love it.
Okay, so we could probably keepgoing in this vein for a while,
but let's dig into some of thework of creating belonging.
So before we started today, wewere talking a little bit about
some of your experiences andkind of relating your
experiences to the overbearingpart of the creating belonging
(08:06):
model.
And so, just as a refresher,this is when we are high on
authenticity, low on acceptance,and so oftentimes we've got
blinders on.
We're just assuming that therest of the world sees the world
the way that we do, and we'rethere quite often.
I know that I am there quiteoften and we've got to take some
(08:27):
time to pull back thoseblinders and understand that not
everyone sees the world the waythat we do shift into more of
that acceptance.
But I would love to hear someof your experiences of being in
that place of overbearing.
Jim (08:40):
Yeah, yeah, well, even a half step back here, justin.
I think what's interestingabout our conversation about the
framework initially is thatlike and like disagree with me,
if you want, but I feel like theoverbearing category is almost
the one that folks are mostnervous about, right, like, it's
the one that, at least when Iwas reading the descriptions
when we were talking about theframework initially, it was the
one that I was like, oh, I don'twant to be in that category.
(09:01):
Like, that's not, that's notwhere I want to be.
Right, it's the one that feelslike you're true to self but not
to others, and that feels, Idon't know, I'm a big empath and
so I was.
I was pretty nervous about it,but when we were chatting about
(09:23):
it, I a way that has been, Ithink, impactful to both myself
and to others too.
So, so, as we were chattingabout it, I was, I was willing
to embrace the overbearing and alittle bit of like, well, okay,
here's some stories, but justto say, like, I also reflect
that I think these are some ofthe moments that I've learned
the most about myself and aboutothers and and that kind of
piece there.
So, so, as we were chattingabout one of the stories that
that kind of triggered for mefor my personal life was a
(09:45):
relationship with a good friendof mine.
So this is a friend that I metwhile I was at school actually
going back to university hereand so the two of us have some
shared parts of our identity.
We both identify within theLGBT community, both have a kind
of adhere to that serviceelement that I was talking about
.
At the university we actuallymet at a service club and so we
(10:07):
have these elements that kind ofdrew us together and helped
form a relationship.
At the same time, we have partsof our identities that are
different.
So I spoke earlier a little bitabout my identity, but I don't
think I shared this specificpoint.
But I'm a white cis male and sothe world that I live in is a
world that largely looks like me, especially here in the US.
And the world that I live in isa world that largely looks like
me, especially here in the US.
And the friend that I'mreferencing she's a Latina
(10:28):
female and so someone that grewup in a household where it was
just her mom Her mom had movedto the US before she was born,
but within her own adulthood andso had a lot of migrant
mentality in the home and stufflike that.
And so after college moved toChicago.
Both of us moved to Chicagoindependently for work and stuff
(10:49):
and maintain our friendship andwhile here kind of rekindled
our friendship and really gotvery, very close.
And so I just kind of marchedthrough friendship as I marched
through all of my friendships,which was making plans and
communicating a lot, and it'sjust as an extrovert that's who
I am in the world.
And so you're just going tohear from me, probably more than
you want to.
And there was a moment there'sprobably about, um, ooh,
(11:12):
probably about six years afterwe graduated, um, so we've been
in Chicago for about that periodof time together and we had
made plans to hang out and shecame over and we were going to
go out to dinner and she waslike hey, before we go out to
dinner, can we talk for a minute?
And I was like sure, and we satdown and basically she was like
this is too much, you're toomuch.
And I was like OK, that'soffensive, like what do you mean
(11:34):
?
I'm too much.
And of course that reaction justproves the point, Like let's be
communicating.
Was that the way that shenavigated the world was
different than the way that Idid that she.
She tended she was more of anintrovert, so she tended to like
more alone time.
She was fairly private.
(11:55):
She didn't like digitalcommunication.
So when I would text questions,it was not her preference to
like text.
A response back she was likelet's just like meet and like
hang out a little bit, but atthe same time I'm pretty high
energy and so when we would hangout she was just like it's just
a lot, and if we hang out toooften it's too much.
And my first reaction was I washurt.
My first reaction is that I was.
You know, this is someone Iconsider one of my best friends
(12:16):
and all of a sudden I'm beingtold that I'm not a good friend
and my first reaction was likescrew it.
Like if this is how you thinkabout me, this is who I am, like
I'm out.
And fortunately that is not howthe conversation went and my
brain had a second thought.
But really the core of what Ifeel like I walked away from in
(12:38):
that situation is that arelationship is made by the two
or more people but we'll say twoin this place two people that
are there, and it's about thosetwo people finding their equal
equal is the wrong word theirshared contributions to the
relationship and that those needto match in some capacity, that
the energy I was putting in wastoo much and it was
overshadowing the energy she wasable to, or willing to, put
(13:00):
into our relationship.
Right, and so what it did, wasit kind of reset, reset us back
to saying, great, how do we putin energy levels that feel
similar and are a little bitmore matched and are a little
bit more at the right balancewith each other?
And so some of the ways thatthat actually kind of played out
is that like one um, as we um,uh, planned times to hang out,
what I would, what we would do,is kind of like at the end of
(13:21):
one of our hangouts we wouldplan when our next hangout would
be, but we would choose it at acadence that kind of worked for
her.
So sometimes we'd go for liketwo months without hanging out
one-on-one because like therewere other things that she had
going on, or she had travelcoming up, or you know just a
moment in life where she'sfeeling a little overwhelmed and
you need to take a step back.
And so what was really coolabout the solution we arrived at
was that my extrovert, highenergy self was satiated because
(13:45):
I knew when the next plan was.
I knew that, you know, I hadthe security of knowing that the
friendship was still there andwe had, you know, kind of the
next time to see each other.
But she had that space.
She needed the little bit ofbreathing room that she needed
for the high energy that I couldbring to a relationship.
And so, you know, it was areally interesting, as we were
talking about the framework here, one of the stories that I
thought of because, again, likeI said, it was a it was a moment
(14:07):
where I really felt like I wasbeing called out for being a bad
friend.
And what she was very quick toclarify is like this isn't about
a good friend or a bad friend.
This is about the two of usfinding a friendship that
actually works for us.
That is actually the balance ofthe two of us and not just one
person's preference over andover and over again.
And so it's a mantra, lesson,some phrase like that, somewhere
(14:28):
like that that I try and bringinto a lot of my relationships.
Now try and understand, likehow much do you want, like, what
does that look like for us todevelop a closeness or a
friendship and how do wemaintain that?
And taking a bit of a step backto recognize that the way I
prefer to do it, which is like,great, let's hang out all the
time, is not how actually a lotof people want to do it.
Um, but that was, that was forme, a big moment to kind of take
(14:48):
a step back and recognize that,like, friendships are not just
about getting along or hangingout.
It's about finding alignment asyou continue to evolve together
, and so that that was one ofthe stories that I think
triggered for me when I wasthinking about overbearing yeah,
thank you for that.
Justin (15:04):
So I'm just thinking about you know you mentioned a
little bit of kind of how that'simpacted your future
relationships is thinking abouthow you're creating that balance
so that both people are kind ofrespected in the relationship.
I want to dig into that alittle bit more in that journey
of learning.
(15:25):
And you know, how did you, howdid you start to apply that in
other relationships?
Jim (15:31):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, in a very honest way,like it came out at work quite a
bit right, because working inHR, we're dealing with people
every single day, day in and dayout, and so I would never know
what the next thing would bethat was going to walk in my
office, and so, whetherintentionally or unintentionally
, we're setting up a wall forone of the other stories that we
chatted a little bit about,which was from a professional
setting, and so this was afterthis conversation had happened.
(15:54):
It was when I was at a techcompany here in Chicago running
HR and we had a relatively youngemployee population, and so I
had an employee come in who wasour first employee who had had a
kiddo while on staff with us.
So we had people that we'dhired who had kids, but this is
the first person that actuallytook advantage of our parental
(16:15):
leave policy, like actually wenton leave and came back and was
going through the transition ofgoing from non-parent to parent
actually on staff, and so shedropped a calendar invite on my
calendar and came in and closedmy office door and was just like
clearly frustrated, like justyou could just feel the prickle
coming off of her and I was likeoh gosh, like okay, what's
(16:39):
going on, what's happening, andshe sat down and kind of walked
me through this story where theday before her manager had
scheduled a meeting at like 5.30PM and she had rearranged
childcare so that she could stayfor the meeting and her partner
was picking up the kid at thedaycare instead of it was her
day to do it, and some otherkind of logistics like that.
And then she proceeded to sharewith me that in the meeting
itself there was about 10 or 15minutes at the start of meeting,
(17:01):
which was just kind of likepeople were showing up late,
they were getting a snack, therewas just like some social
banter, and then the meetingstarted and then it ended later
than the scheduled time and shewas furious.
And so, going back to, uh, theconversation we're just having
about that friendship, right,where I recognize, where I had
this moment, where I was giventhe opportunity to recognize
that the way that I approach theworld, the way that I build
(17:24):
relationships, the way that Ioperate, is not the way that
everyone does and we need tofind the balance in there.
Kind of pulled from that memoryright, I was like okay, like I
usually stay till like six, likewhat's going on here, like
where are we going?
And she, she, she walked methrough the impact that it had
on her right, like her partnerhad to leave early from work.
It was a late in the dayaddition to the calendar and so
(17:45):
he wasn't able to get to thedaycare on time, so they got
charged a late fee.
The meeting ended late, whichmeant that she got home after
dinner which was kind of thefamily's time to get together
every day and was just there forbedtime.
And again, this was probablyabout three or four months after
coming back from leave.
So the kiddo was still superyoung, right, and so, kind of
walking through this, I was likeit was just a real eye-opening
(18:06):
moment as to the experience ofparents in the workplace.
She was one of the firstparents that I had worked with
and I did not have kids myself.
I was able to be in thatconversation and be able to
really appreciate the world thatshe was opening up to my eyes,
the reality that I didn't quiteunderstand kind of thing, as
you're asking about how itimpacted other places.
(18:30):
I was able to be a really safespace for her to come with a
really frustrating thing and beable to strategize with her
about how to better approach hermanager about kind of policy
and procedure around meetingscheduling, agenda, setting
respective time when in ameeting, and also for her to be
able to put the boundaries onher days that she was able to do
drop off and pick upaccordingly.
And she's still at thatorganization is one of the
(18:51):
highest performers on that team.
She's still on the same teamthat she was on, so like it
worked.
But it definitely took thatability to take a step back and
just be able to listen tosomeone and help them create the
conditions of success forthemselves and that, like my
role, there was just kind oflike sending some emails
clarifying some policies andthen but but creating the space
for it to happen, kind of thing,and I really look at my friend
(19:12):
as someone that really helped meunderstand that ability to, um,
to really kind of like take thestep back and see what someone
else needs and recognize whatyou can give to help that person
realize what it is that theyneed yeah, there's the.
Justin (19:28):
I love this idea that learning happens in overbearing,
but I want to reframe it alittle bit because I think that
I think learning can happen outof overbearing when we are
willing to take on theperspective of others, like when
we push into acceptance andtake on that perspective, and I
think that overbearing becomes aproblem when we're willfully
(19:51):
ignorant.
Jim (19:53):
Yes yes when I think of like that that split sorry, I
think of that split second,where either you know someone
brings something to you, right,they kind of call you out on it,
and either it's the fight orflight response a little bit
right.
It's like either you get pissedright and you just you go off
the handle, or you get pissedright and you just you go off
the handle, or you get yourbrain to go to the tell me more,
tell me more side of it.
Right, tell me more.
Why, why Tell me more?
(20:13):
Tell me more right, get thateducational piece where you can
really understand that impact.
Justin (20:18):
Yeah, when you dig into acceptance, dig into taking on
other's perspectives, that'swhere the learning happens, and
so I love that, thatconversation of kind of pulling
that out of of there, becausethere's, you're right, that
overbearing, I think foreveryone, for even for me, is
(20:40):
the scary one of like I I thinkI joke about it in the book and
I know that I've joked about itnot in the book that, like I
don't share a lot of my ownstories of overbearing because
like they're not great stories,they don't look good on me,
right, and so we want to becareful about how we do that.
And I also think you know someof I think the, the stories that
(21:03):
you've shared are really greatshort stories of your character
and kind of leaning into thatlearning moment, um, and some of
them, you know, some of ouroverbearing stories take even
more time for the learning,unfortunately, yep or um, you
know, kind of like that oldsaying of um, uh, all lessons
(21:25):
that we don't learn keep comingback until we learn them.
Like I'm screwing that up.
Well, I'll edit that out,probably, uh, but movie.
So, moving on, I, I, there'sanother topic that I want to dig
into with you and so earlier inthe creating belonging work, I
really wanted to make sure thatI was like getting a wide, you
(21:48):
know, wide perspectives ofidentities and, and, you know,
also understanding that my lensas a gay man, you know, is going
to influence the work.
And over the past six months,I've really been leaning into
that because I do think that,you know, lgbtq folks are under
attack across the U?
(22:09):
S in different States indifferent ways and so, you know,
this season of the podcastwe're probably going to see more
of our people, lgbtq people, onthe podcast.
Um, because I I think it's it'sworth leaning in there a bit.
But I'd love to hear a bitabout your journey, your
professional journey andbalancing, you know, your
(22:34):
sexuality in.
You know either hiding it or,you know, being out.
I'd love to hear a bit of yourstory.
Jim (22:42):
Yeah, yeah, oh gosh.
So it really does feel like ajourney, it really does feel
like an evolution.
So when I started my career, Imentioned earlier in the
conversation here that I came toChicago with a post-grad
service program.
So that program placed me as amiddle school teacher here in
Chicago, and so the feedbackthat I was given early on in
that time is that you need tolearn the personalities of your
(23:06):
students before you startopening up about yourself.
Ie like don't fly the rainbowflag on day, one kind of thing.
And I'll be honest, I was notconfident enough in myself to
push back on that or to feellike that was the wrong answer.
I was like, okay, great, andthe school community that I
taught in was it was a wonderfulcommunity.
(23:26):
It was on the west side ofChicago here.
It was a community that dealtwith a lot of poverty, drugs,
violence.
So there was a lot going on inthe neighborhood and I struggled
to find a moment where I felttruly comfortable to be fully
expressing of who I am, and so Iactually at one point actually
went back to some of the programstaff and kind of said like
(23:46):
listen, like I'm kind ofstruggling with this code
identity of being an educatorand being gay and like is there
anyone I can talk to about that?
And the answer was no.
Like they didn't know any gayeducators to like have me sit
down for coffee with to liketalk about that experience.
And I think for me that wasalmost the thing.
It was like more flummoxing.
I was like you don't know anygay educators, like there's not
(24:07):
a single one you can likeconnect me with and they're like
not in our network.
And so like it really took mefinding some people in my own,
my own circle to to kind ofbuild some of those connections.
But coming out of the classroomsetting which which is is a
little bit of a differentsetting than other kinds of
corporate settings that I'd beenin since then, just to kind of
flag that but in the steps thatI took from there, every single
(24:32):
job switch that I had, I wasmore and more open about my
identity and so and that lookeddifferent ways.
So the next switch that I madewas that I didn't hide it, like
if someone asked I would tellthem, and then the next job
after that I was, I would tellpeople.
It was like part of my intro orlike make sure that it was part
of, like you know, my firstconversation with people or
something like that, all the wayup until today.
The relationship I find myselfin today is not your standard
(24:53):
typical relationship.
So even in the vein of, I'vebecome much more comfortable in
my gay identity, particularly ina corporate and work setting
and knowing how I talk aboutthat and my language around that
, and also like my bullshitmeter too.
Apologies for the language here, but, like you know, what I'm
willing to accept or not acceptin a, in a, in a work setting.
In that vein, on myrelationship side because it's
(25:16):
an atypical relationship, Istill find myself trying to
understand and navigate a littlebit that there's still this
part of my identity that, likeI'm, I'm evolving, how it comes
into the workplace and so inthat vein, you know it's been,
it's been at first at one job Ididn't talk about that part of
my life.
I just, you know, I was openabout my queerness but I was not
open about my relationshipstatus.
And then the next one, I wasopen about relationship status
but they were kind of kept farapart.
(25:37):
Now I'm at a point where it'svery integrated into my
day-to-day with my coworkers butmy job is a very externally
facing job, so I don't bring itup in those types of
conversations very often, butwith my peers here internally I
will, and so it's I don't know.
I don't know what that means interms of like you know, if we
were to do an update, if I do ajob change at some point, what
my next evolution is going to be.
But I do.
(25:58):
It's interesting because I dolook at kind of job changes as
like milestone, as to likeeither my comfort with my
openness about my language, formy identity, as it kind of
continues to come to the world.
The last thing I'll kind of flaghere is that you know it's,
it's the world continues tochange, and so I agree with your
, your point that you made aboutthe guests that you're having
on the podcast this season of of.
(26:19):
You know, having some LGBTQvoices being present and vocal
is really important at thismoment in time.
At the same time, living in thecity of Chicago it's a
relatively progressive city andso I've also had the privilege
of working in like relativelyprogressive environments and so
it's also been interesting tofeel more and more comfortable
and more and more as thoughwhat's the right word here, um,
(26:43):
that people want to know butdon't care as much as they did
before.
It used to be a salacious thing, right, that you had a gay
coworker, and now it's kind oflike it's not.
It's not in the same way as itonce was for those of us that
are of a certain generation thatlike and I I think that you and
I identify a little bit in thisway, but just like I was
certain generation when that wasa really weird thing.
Justin (27:07):
And now it's like almost table stakes.
I don't know yeah reaction there.
No, I think there's um, you'remaking me think of, you know a,
the, the privilege, the luxuryof living in chicago and and
some of that automaticacceptance, because I so in my
journey, when I, before I, movedto chicago, um, you know, I was
working in an office in DesMoines, iowa, and I was actually
(27:28):
with the company that I movedto Chicago with.
It was a promotion, but I was asmaller branch in Des Moines and
I remember, if we look at themakeup of the office at that
point in time, there was a womanthat I worked with, woman who
you know living in Des Moines,iowa, and I remember kind of
(27:52):
being out in the office thereand she would say I don't know
that she ever said it to my face, but she told other people in
the office she's like Justin'stoo normal to be gay, like he's,
he's just in a phase and he'sgonna meet a nice woman and
settle down because he's.
(28:12):
She saw me as too quote, normal, yeah, to be, and I'm like,
wait, what do you think a gayperson is then?
Yes, and, and then I moved tochicago and I was working in you
know a large bank, um in thethe you know corporate
headquarters learningdevelopment department, like
half my team was gay and so itwas just a total paradigm shift
(28:37):
in like oh yeah, we're all gayhere, like you're in.
Jim (28:40):
You know that were the geography that you're in can
really influence that acceptanceyeah, you know what's
fascinating, justin, is we'vehad a bit of a theme around
overbearing as a a concept hereon the, the podcast, the episode
(29:04):
.
Um you, you were in heroverbearing moment.
Right, you were the recipientof the overbearing right.
Justin (29:11):
Yeah, absolutely Right.
You don't know that I've toldthat story yet, so flag that
story and there's another story,right?
Jim (29:19):
Everyone, there's a bonus episode coming soon.
Get ready, get ready.
Justin (29:22):
I know, and you know it's funny because I don't, I
don't, I still adore her, like Ithought she was great.
So I don't, you know, I don'tmean ill of you know for her in
telling that story, but it'sjust, you know, it's an
interesting perspective, yeah.
One other thing that I wantedto grab is something I was
(29:44):
thinking about, like you know,as an educator so early in your
career, kind of like, hey, wedon't really share much about
ourselves, um, with our students, because, you know, we kind of
need to be this like agnostic,almost figure.
And it actually made me thinkof, um, andrew huberman.
And if you listen to andrewhuberman, he's like what number
(30:06):
two podcast in the world.
Um, I listen to him regularlybut he talked like you'll always
see him in his podcast and he'slike in a black button-down
shirt like full sleeves, andhe's admitted before on I don't
know, in some podcasts maybe hisown, like he's covered in
tattoos, yeah, and, like youknow, talks about how he puts on
(30:28):
this persona in hisprofessional life as a professor
and in his podcasting world ofthis very like apolitical,
agnostic kind of person who isjust there to state the facts,
yeah, and so that's where I'm at.
I'm like thinking.
I'm just thinking about whereare those places in life where
(30:51):
we have to be kind of genericand is that okay?
Jim (30:56):
Ooh, that's a great question.
Well, I mean that's a greatquestion, justin.
I think my first response comesback to safety.
I think that for anyone who hassome form of an othered
identity, that's often one ofthe first places that that we
think of, right, like, is this asafe space for me to be who I
am?
And I think within that, wehave to acknowledge privilege.
Right, like I think of of my,my, my peers, who are people of
(31:18):
color, who cannot hide theirskin color or or hair color or
texture or whatever in any givencontext.
Right, my gain is, our gain, iswe can choose to cover, if we
want to, right, so we doactually get to choose, like
walking through a doorway, whowe are in that instance, based
on that quick read across theroom.
Right, so I think of that first, but then I also think very
(31:38):
quickly of, um, I have thenumber of rooms that I have been
in where I am the only queerperson in that room, or at least
the only one that's open aboutit, and clarified that and made
it known to others.
Right, we know that there's alot of folks that, for many
different reasons, don't feelcomfortable or aren't capable of
being able to have thatopenness, and so I have, in
(32:01):
those instances, tried very hardto be, as much as I can can,
the champion for those causes,right?
So I think of past leadershipteams that I've been a part of,
I think of panels that I sit on,I think of being a guest on a
podcast within a season, right,like, are there a variety of
voices that are coming to thetable At the same time?
(32:22):
It's really interesting.
There's an organization here inChicago or it's a national
organization, but the CEO ishere in Chicago called Startout.
It's an organization thatsupports LGBT entrepreneurs.
They do really fantasticprogramming, great work, awesome
stuff.
I've had the great privilege ofgetting to know them over the
last kind of year in my role andparticipate in a couple of
(32:42):
programs.
What's really interesting isthat, like when I even reflect
on my own understanding of, like, my gayness in a room or my own
understanding of my identity, Igo to a start out event and I'm
probably one of the least adeptpeople in that room to be able
to articulate my identity, andyet in most settings in my life,
I'm the most articulate andbeing able to identify or be
able to talk about my identitybecause I am the only one, and
(33:05):
so I think about it also, justlike the context and community
you're part of.
Also, like I think I'm the sameperson, but like when, in a
room of you know all LGBT peoplewho are able to really be able
to talk really, reallyeloquently about you, know how
they identify how that impactstheir lived experience, I find
myself humbled in those settings.
(33:26):
Yet I find myself in settingswhere I have to do that type of
talk because there's no one elseto do it.
It's an interesting balancebecause I'm the same person in
both but but, but not at thesame time.
Justin (33:37):
Yeah, yeah, there's um a bit of context of um, how do I
fit into this group and when'reI mean?
It's kind of like you know, uh,if we take the, the gay
identity out of it.
Like you know, if you were umtalking about neurobiology to a
(33:58):
bunch of people who were, uh,accountants, you could be like
really confident about it.
But if you were trying to talkabout neurobiology in front of a
room of other neurobiologists,you'd be like, oh gosh, they all
know more than I do and sothere's that positionality of do
(34:21):
I actually, does my experiencemean more?
do I have more than everyoneelse?
And so it becomes kind of thisintimidating thing.
Jim (34:30):
Yeah, and what's so interesting is that, like, there
are skills you can have right,in which case you have more
skill or less skill, or moreknowledge or less knowledge on a
thing, but when it comes toidentity, it's like it's not,
there's not, it's not a game,it's not a point system in which
you have 80 identity pointsbecause you've whatever right.
It's like we all have ouridentity and it is what it is.
But I totally agree with whatyou just said.
(34:52):
I step into a room of all queerfolks and it's it's often a bit
intimidating, because I'mrarely in a setting like that,
I'm rarely in community withwith people that share that part
of my identity with me.
In that same way, I often findmyself having to be the one
right.
Yeah, that's who?
And I think about that for afew minutes.
Justin (35:10):
Yeah, that's a good one to dig into and it's, it's
interesting.
Um, uh, I I'm definitely alittle teaser for some of the
work that I'm doing.
I'm, um, I've been digging deep, deep into authenticity and
where authenticity lives in ourbrains and like how, how
(35:30):
authenticity and identity areformed and spoiler.
Authenticity is a combinationof a who we are, but also who we
think everyone wants us to be.
And so there's an interestingmix there, and so I'm playing
there.
I haven't solved it all, butthat's all work for the second
edition.
(35:51):
That's a big one, huh, yeah,yeah, jim, I have really enjoyed
our conversation today andwe'll have to go have drinks in
the neighborhood soon.
Beings were literally my arm,twist my arm.
But thank you so much for forjoining us.
And if anyone wants to get incontact with you, how do they do
(36:14):
?
Jim (36:15):
Yeah, yeah.
So LinkedIn is easy.
Just search my name.
I usually pop up pretty quickly, if that's a little challenging
.
The firm I work for, hyde ParkVenture Partners, you can find
our website.
I have a profile on there andlinks to email and stuff like
that.
Feel free to reach out.
If any of the topics that wechatted about today resonate and
folks want to go a littledeeper, I would love to connect
further.
But also if folks just want totalk more about identity in the
(36:36):
workplace, identity in life, howwe figure stuff out, how we
build relationships with others,I'm all ears, let's chat.
Justin (36:55):
Awesome.
Thank you, jim, and thank youall for listening and join us
again for another episode soon.
Hello, welcome to another episode of the Creating
Belonging podcast.
Today, I have with me Jim Conti.
We actually you know what'shilarious is Jim?
I was introduced to by one ofour season one guests, ld.
I think you guys went tocollege together, right?
I think that's right.
Yeah, the original connectionthere.
(00:31):
Yep, yeah, yeah.
And so Jim and I have connectedsince and, funny enough, we
actually live like a block ortwo from each other Like almost
across the street.
Jim (00:41):
Yeah, it's kind of funny Small world moment for sure.
Justin (00:43):
But connected by someone who lives in LA, almost across
the street.
Yeah, it's kind of funny Smallworld moment for sure.
Connected by someone who livesin LA?
Yeah, I love that.
So, janet, if you wouldn't mindintroducing yourself to our
listeners.
Jim (00:56):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, thank you so much forhaving me here today.
To everyone listening, my nameis Jim Conti.
In the professional world, Icurrently serve as the talent
partner at Hyde Park VenturePartners, which is an early
stage venture capital firmheadquartered in Chicago.
My role I do HR consultingacross the portfolio, so I come
from an HR operator seat used torun HR at software companies
(01:16):
here in Chicago and now I get toadvise companies on that
practice, which is a lot of fun.
I've been doing this for alittle over two years now.
Lot of fun.
Been doing this for a littleover two years now.
Um, and on the personal side,uh, as justin mentioned, live in
the chicago, um, the chicagoecosystem, but specifically in
the andersonville neighborhood.
Um, I've been here since 2007and so very much, uh, consider
myself a chicagoan at this point.
Um, but, um, uh, loving, lovinglife in the city and uh, love,
(01:40):
love to get out and explore thevarious neighborhoods we have
here.
So it's a, it's a great spotthank you.
Justin (01:45):
You know what's funny?
I've been in chicago since 2006and so, like we've been in
chicago the same time frame, welive, you know, a block from
each other.
Jim (01:54):
Seriously, it took a mutual connection in la and yet here
we are, and yet here we arechatting on a podcast.
I I love it, I love it.
Justin (02:03):
So I think our listeners are typically used to kind of
disclosing of identities upfront.
So just before we get started,you know you introduced yourself
a little bit, but if there areany other identities that you
wouldn't mind sharing with ustoday, yeah, of course, of
course.
Jim (02:21):
Yeah, I think it's so interesting to talk about
identities because you canalmost pick it apart from any
different lens or perspective.
But some of the like kind ofbigger buckets that I'd say that
very much kind of make up how Iview my seat in the world or my
perspective in the world from acommunity perspective and, and
(02:46):
um, uh, very much, uh, a part ofmy life today.
Um, and so, uh, that'sdefinitely a big part of it.
Um, I also identify as both aplant dad and a dog dad, and so
I've got two dogs goldenretriever and a yellow lab um,
and a few more plants that I'mI'm proud to admit, but um, uh,
across both of them they are,they are the things that help me
slow down in this world.
I live at a pretty fast pace,so my plants and my pups they
help me just kind of take a stepback and take a deep breath.
(03:06):
So I appreciate that.
I mentioned before that I movedto Chicago in 2007 and been here
since.
So, while I do identify as aChicagoan, I grew up in New
Hampshire and I think thatthat's a pretty special place to
grow up.
It's not a big state.
There's not a lot of us there,but it's a place that I think
really formed a lot of who I amtoday and the community that I
was a part of there as well.
I went to college in Boston.
(03:27):
I went to Boston College, whichis interesting because it's a
Catholic university, but I'm notCatholic myself, but the way
that that played out in kind ofmy lived experience at the
university was very much a focuson volunteership and service to
others and really thinkingabout how we were charting a
course that did well by othersin the path that we took after
university.
And so, while the Catholicismpiece is not a part that I
(03:49):
identify with, that service toothers element, that
volunteerism, that giving backto community, is something that
was deeply entrenched in me atthat time and I would say is a
big kind of hallmark of how Iinteract with the world today.
And then I think the final onethat I'll put on there is that
I'm a traveler.
I love to go explore new places.
I mentioned about exploringneighborhoods in Chicago but
like, give me a plane ticket,put me on a plane, let me go
(04:10):
explore some neighborhoodssomewhere else in the world.
Whenever I travel, I rarely buytickets for things.
I mostly just like leave myAirbnb or hotel and just wander
for the day, love to just seewhere the steps take me, and so
just love to explore, travel,experience new things, and so
very much an openness to that aswell.
So I feel like that's a bigpart of who I am too.
Justin (04:30):
Yeah, I love that.
Two things I want to pick outthere.
Number one is identity by kindof geographic region that you
grew up in.
I think some people, somepeople anchor in that like maybe
if they, if you've moved awayfrom that, um, and I, I guess I
talk about it a lot but I don'tthink of it as much as an
identity like growing up inrural iowa very much shaped how
(04:51):
I see the world.
Jim (04:53):
Um, although you know I'm a chicagoman at this point, you
know right, exactly, I think youknow we as humans love to find
shortcuts, right, like we ashumans love to find these like
cool.
This means that and then I, you,you know, kind of figure
something out.
And so for me at least a littlebit, to clarify, like I grew up
in New Hampshire, my, my dad,still lives in the same house.
They came home from thehospital to when I was born and
(05:14):
I realized that that issomething that's pretty unique
in the world these days.
So like when I go home for theholidays, like I actually am
still going to my childhoodbedroom, which is kind of weird,
but I think that, like you know, being able to kind of say,
like I grew up in New Hampshire,it's part of New England, my
dad's still there there'selements of value.
There's elements of how youcommunicate or interact with the
world.
There's ways that you know justpolitical perspectives or
(05:35):
whatever, that it can kind ofcommunicate or encapsulate a
little bit no-transcriptChicagoan and a plant dad Right,
and just get those kinds ofdifferent perspectives and give
(05:56):
people some of those easiershortcuts to understand who I am
.
Justin (05:59):
Yeah, yeah, I love that.
And the second one is, um thehaving attended a Catholic
university, so I don't thinkabout it often, but I um went to
DePaul here in Chicago Catholic, and that was very much a part
of the university mission.
Was, you know, service toothers?
That, um, you know, I wasn'traised Catholic and I don't I'm
(06:22):
not Catholic today, but I lovethat about my experience was
that the service aspect of youknow of education.
Jim (06:31):
Yep, yep, very much so, and I think that it's interesting
because when I think about thepath that I'm on in life, I
don't think I would be on thiscall with you today had I not
attended a Catholic university,which is kind of a really funny
thing to say.
But the thing that brought me toChicago was a post-grad service
program that I've learned aboutwhile at VC, and the openness
(06:52):
to doing a post-grad serviceprogram as opposed to going
directly into a job was neversomething I thought about before
being exposed to the university, right.
So it's kind of a funny thingto kind of note that the
Catholic nature of theuniversity I went to put me on a
path that got me to Chicago andgot me on the path of things
you know, decisions that I'vemade across time to be able to
get here, and so, while it's apart of my background that I
(07:12):
don't identify with, there's theCatholicism piece specifically,
that what that meant at theplace that I was at put me on a
path to get me where I am today,which is still just.
It's kind of wild to map thatback a little bit.
Justin (07:24):
Yeah, yeah.
I sometimes reflect on thosethings of like that one little
thing, that pivotal thing, thatlike landed where I am today,
right, small decisions.
It makes me think of a moviesliding doors, yeah.
Jim (07:40):
I haven't heard that reference in a while.
I love it.
Okay, I haven't heard thatreference in a while, justin,
that's showing our age.
Justin (07:45):
I love it.
Okay, so we could probably keepgoing in this vein for a while,
but let's dig into some of thework of creating belonging.
So before we started today, wewere talking a little bit about
some of your experiences andkind of relating your
experiences to the overbearingpart of the creating belonging
(08:06):
model.
And so, just as a refresher,this is when we are high on
authenticity, low on acceptance,and so oftentimes we've got
blinders on.
We're just assuming that therest of the world sees the world
the way that we do, and we'rethere quite often.
I know that I am there quiteoften and we've got to take some
(08:27):
time to pull back thoseblinders and understand that not
everyone sees the world the waythat we do shift into more of
that acceptance.
But I would love to hear someof your experiences of being in
that place of overbearing.
Jim (08:40):
Yeah, yeah, well, even a half step back here, justin.
I think what's interestingabout our conversation about the
framework initially is thatlike and like disagree with me,
if you want, but I feel like theoverbearing category is almost
the one that folks are mostnervous about, right, like, it's
the one that, at least when Iwas reading the descriptions
when we were talking about theframework initially, it was the
one that I was like, oh, I don'twant to be in that category.
(09:01):
Like, that's not, that's notwhere I want to be.
Right, it's the one that feelslike you're true to self but not
to others, and that feels, Idon't know, I'm a big empath and
so I was.
I was pretty nervous about it,but when we were chatting about
(09:23):
it, I a way that has been, Ithink, impactful to both myself
and to others too.
So, so, as we were chattingabout it, I was, I was willing
to embrace the overbearing and alittle bit of like, well, okay,
here's some stories, but justto say, like, I also reflect
that I think these are some ofthe moments that I've learned
the most about myself and aboutothers and and that kind of
piece there.
So, so, as we were chattingabout one of the stories that
that kind of triggered for mefor my personal life was a
(09:45):
relationship with a good friendof mine.
So this is a friend that I metwhile I was at school actually
going back to university hereand so the two of us have some
shared parts of our identity.
We both identify within theLGBT community, both have a kind
of adhere to that serviceelement that I was talking about
.
At the university we actuallymet at a service club and so we
(10:07):
have these elements that kind ofdrew us together and helped
form a relationship.
At the same time, we have partsof our identities that are
different.
So I spoke earlier a little bitabout my identity, but I don't
think I shared this specificpoint.
But I'm a white cis male and sothe world that I live in is a
world that largely looks like me, especially here in the US.
And the world that I live in isa world that largely looks like
me, especially here in the US.
And the friend that I'mreferencing she's a Latina
(10:28):
female and so someone that grewup in a household where it was
just her mom Her mom had movedto the US before she was born,
but within her own adulthood andso had a lot of migrant
mentality in the home and stufflike that.
And so after college moved toChicago.
Both of us moved to Chicagoindependently for work and stuff
(10:49):
and maintain our friendship andwhile here kind of rekindled
our friendship and really gotvery, very close.
And so I just kind of marchedthrough friendship as I marched
through all of my friendships,which was making plans and
communicating a lot, and it'sjust as an extrovert that's who
I am in the world.
And so you're just going tohear from me, probably more than
you want to.
And there was a moment there'sprobably about, um, ooh,
(11:12):
probably about six years afterwe graduated, um, so we've been
in Chicago for about that periodof time together and we had
made plans to hang out and shecame over and we were going to
go out to dinner and she waslike hey, before we go out to
dinner, can we talk for a minute?
And I was like sure, and we satdown and basically she was like
this is too much, you're toomuch.
And I was like OK, that'soffensive, like what do you mean
(11:34):
?
I'm too much.
And of course that reaction justproves the point, Like let's be
communicating.
Was that the way that shenavigated the world was
different than the way that Idid that she.
She tended she was more of anintrovert, so she tended to like
more alone time.
She was fairly private.
(11:55):
She didn't like digitalcommunication.
So when I would text questions,it was not her preference to
like text.
A response back she was likelet's just like meet and like
hang out a little bit, but atthe same time I'm pretty high
energy and so when we would hangout she was just like it's just
a lot, and if we hang out toooften it's too much.
And my first reaction was I washurt.
My first reaction is that I was.
You know, this is someone Iconsider one of my best friends
(12:16):
and all of a sudden I'm beingtold that I'm not a good friend
and my first reaction was likescrew it.
Like if this is how you thinkabout me, this is who I am, like
I'm out.
And fortunately that is not howthe conversation went and my
brain had a second thought.
But really the core of what Ifeel like I walked away from in
(12:38):
that situation is that arelationship is made by the two
or more people but we'll say twoin this place two people that
are there, and it's about thosetwo people finding their equal
equal is the wrong word theirshared contributions to the
relationship and that those needto match in some capacity, that
the energy I was putting in wastoo much and it was
overshadowing the energy she wasable to, or willing to, put
(13:00):
into our relationship.
Right, and so what it did, wasit kind of reset, reset us back
to saying, great, how do we putin energy levels that feel
similar and are a little bitmore matched and are a little
bit more at the right balancewith each other?
And so some of the ways thatthat actually kind of played out
is that like one um, as we um,uh, planned times to hang out,
what I would, what we would do,is kind of like at the end of
(13:21):
one of our hangouts we wouldplan when our next hangout would
be, but we would choose it at acadence that kind of worked for
her.
So sometimes we'd go for liketwo months without hanging out
one-on-one because like therewere other things that she had
going on, or she had travelcoming up, or you know just a
moment in life where she'sfeeling a little overwhelmed and
you need to take a step back.
And so what was really coolabout the solution we arrived at
was that my extrovert, highenergy self was satiated because
(13:45):
I knew when the next plan was.
I knew that, you know, I hadthe security of knowing that the
friendship was still there andwe had, you know, kind of the
next time to see each other.
But she had that space.
She needed the little bit ofbreathing room that she needed
for the high energy that I couldbring to a relationship.
And so, you know, it was areally interesting, as we were
talking about the framework here, one of the stories that I
thought of because, again, likeI said, it was a it was a moment
(14:07):
where I really felt like I wasbeing called out for being a bad
friend.
And what she was very quick toclarify is like this isn't about
a good friend or a bad friend.
This is about the two of usfinding a friendship that
actually works for us.
That is actually the balance ofthe two of us and not just one
person's preference over andover and over again.
And so it's a mantra, lesson,some phrase like that, somewhere
(14:28):
like that that I try and bringinto a lot of my relationships.
Now try and understand, likehow much do you want, like, what
does that look like for us todevelop a closeness or a
friendship and how do wemaintain that?
And taking a bit of a step backto recognize that the way I
prefer to do it, which is like,great, let's hang out all the
time, is not how actually a lotof people want to do it.
Um, but that was, that was forme, a big moment to kind of take
(14:48):
a step back and recognize that,like, friendships are not just
about getting along or hangingout.
It's about finding alignment asyou continue to evolve together
, and so that that was one ofthe stories that I think
triggered for me when I wasthinking about overbearing yeah,
thank you for that.
Justin (15:04):
So I'm just thinking about you know you mentioned a
little bit of kind of how that'simpacted your future
relationships is thinking abouthow you're creating that balance
so that both people are kind ofrespected in the relationship.
I want to dig into that alittle bit more in that journey
of learning.
(15:25):
And you know, how did you, howdid you start to apply that in
other relationships?
Jim (15:31):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, in a very honest way,like it came out at work quite a
bit right, because working inHR, we're dealing with people
every single day, day in and dayout, and so I would never know
what the next thing would bethat was going to walk in my
office, and so, whetherintentionally or unintentionally
, we're setting up a wall forone of the other stories that we
chatted a little bit about,which was from a professional
setting, and so this was afterthis conversation had happened.
(15:54):
It was when I was at a techcompany here in Chicago running
HR and we had a relatively youngemployee population, and so I
had an employee come in who wasour first employee who had had a
kiddo while on staff with us.
So we had people that we'dhired who had kids, but this is
the first person that actuallytook advantage of our parental
(16:15):
leave policy, like actually wenton leave and came back and was
going through the transition ofgoing from non-parent to parent
actually on staff, and so shedropped a calendar invite on my
calendar and came in and closedmy office door and was just like
clearly frustrated, like justyou could just feel the prickle
coming off of her and I was likeoh gosh, like okay, what's
(16:39):
going on, what's happening, andshe sat down and kind of walked
me through this story where theday before her manager had
scheduled a meeting at like 5.30PM and she had rearranged
childcare so that she could stayfor the meeting and her partner
was picking up the kid at thedaycare instead of it was her
day to do it, and some otherkind of logistics like that.
And then she proceeded to sharewith me that in the meeting
itself there was about 10 or 15minutes at the start of meeting,
(17:01):
which was just kind of likepeople were showing up late,
they were getting a snack, therewas just like some social
banter, and then the meetingstarted and then it ended later
than the scheduled time and shewas furious.
And so, going back to, uh, theconversation we're just having
about that friendship, right,where I recognize, where I had
this moment, where I was giventhe opportunity to recognize
that the way that I approach theworld, the way that I build
(17:24):
relationships, the way that Ioperate, is not the way that
everyone does and we need tofind the balance in there.
Kind of pulled from that memoryright, I was like okay, like I
usually stay till like six, likewhat's going on here, like
where are we going?
And she, she, she walked methrough the impact that it had
on her right, like her partnerhad to leave early from work.
It was a late in the dayaddition to the calendar and so
(17:45):
he wasn't able to get to thedaycare on time, so they got
charged a late fee.
The meeting ended late, whichmeant that she got home after
dinner which was kind of thefamily's time to get together
every day and was just there forbedtime.
And again, this was probablyabout three or four months after
coming back from leave.
So the kiddo was still superyoung, right, and so, kind of
walking through this, I was likeit was just a real eye-opening
(18:06):
moment as to the experience ofparents in the workplace.
She was one of the firstparents that I had worked with
and I did not have kids myself.
I was able to be in thatconversation and be able to
really appreciate the world thatshe was opening up to my eyes,
the reality that I didn't quiteunderstand kind of thing, as
you're asking about how itimpacted other places.
(18:30):
I was able to be a really safespace for her to come with a
really frustrating thing and beable to strategize with her
about how to better approach hermanager about kind of policy
and procedure around meetingscheduling, agenda, setting
respective time when in ameeting, and also for her to be
able to put the boundaries onher days that she was able to do
drop off and pick upaccordingly.
And she's still at thatorganization is one of the
(18:51):
highest performers on that team.
She's still on the same teamthat she was on, so like it
worked.
But it definitely took thatability to take a step back and
just be able to listen tosomeone and help them create the
conditions of success forthemselves and that, like my
role, there was just kind oflike sending some emails
clarifying some policies andthen but but creating the space
for it to happen, kind of thing,and I really look at my friend
(19:12):
as someone that really helped meunderstand that ability to, um,
to really kind of like take thestep back and see what someone
else needs and recognize whatyou can give to help that person
realize what it is that theyneed yeah, there's the.
Justin (19:28):
I love this idea that learning happens in overbearing,
but I want to reframe it alittle bit because I think that
I think learning can happen outof overbearing when we are
willing to take on theperspective of others, like when
we push into acceptance andtake on that perspective, and I
think that overbearing becomes aproblem when we're willfully
(19:51):
ignorant.
Jim (19:53):
Yes yes when I think of like that that split sorry, I
think of that split second,where either you know someone
brings something to you, right,they kind of call you out on it,
and either it's the fight orflight response a little bit
right.
It's like either you get pissedright and you just you go off
the handle, or you get pissedright and you just you go off
the handle, or you get yourbrain to go to the tell me more,
tell me more side of it.
Right, tell me more.
Why, why Tell me more?
(20:13):
Tell me more right, get thateducational piece where you can
really understand that impact.
Justin (20:18):
Yeah, when you dig into acceptance, dig into taking on
other's perspectives, that'swhere the learning happens, and
so I love that, thatconversation of kind of pulling
that out of of there, becausethere's, you're right, that
overbearing, I think foreveryone, for even for me, is
(20:40):
the scary one of like I I thinkI joke about it in the book and
I know that I've joked about itnot in the book that, like I
don't share a lot of my ownstories of overbearing because
like they're not great stories,they don't look good on me,
right, and so we want to becareful about how we do that.
And I also think you know someof I think the, the stories that
(21:03):
you've shared are really greatshort stories of your character
and kind of leaning into thatlearning moment, um, and some of
them, you know, some of ouroverbearing stories take even
more time for the learning,unfortunately, yep or um, you
know, kind of like that oldsaying of um, uh, all lessons
(21:25):
that we don't learn keep comingback until we learn them.
Like I'm screwing that up.
Well, I'll edit that out,probably, uh, but movie.
So, moving on, I, I, there'sanother topic that I want to dig
into with you and so earlier inthe creating belonging work, I
really wanted to make sure thatI was like getting a wide, you
(21:48):
know, wide perspectives ofidentities and, and, you know,
also understanding that my lensas a gay man, you know, is going
to influence the work.
And over the past six months,I've really been leaning into
that because I do think that,you know, lgbtq folks are under
attack across the U?
(22:09):
S in different States indifferent ways and so, you know,
this season of the podcastwe're probably going to see more
of our people, lgbtq people, onthe podcast.
Um, because I I think it's it'sworth leaning in there a bit.
But I'd love to hear a bitabout your journey, your
professional journey andbalancing, you know, your
(22:34):
sexuality in.
You know either hiding it or,you know, being out.
I'd love to hear a bit of yourstory.
Jim (22:42):
Yeah, yeah, oh gosh.
So it really does feel like ajourney, it really does feel
like an evolution.
So when I started my career, Imentioned earlier in the
conversation here that I came toChicago with a post-grad
service program.
So that program placed me as amiddle school teacher here in
Chicago, and so the feedbackthat I was given early on in
that time is that you need tolearn the personalities of your
(23:06):
students before you startopening up about yourself.
Ie like don't fly the rainbowflag on day, one kind of thing.
And I'll be honest, I was notconfident enough in myself to
push back on that or to feellike that was the wrong answer.
I was like, okay, great, andthe school community that I
taught in was it was a wonderfulcommunity.
(23:26):
It was on the west side ofChicago here.
It was a community that dealtwith a lot of poverty, drugs,
violence.
So there was a lot going on inthe neighborhood and I struggled
to find a moment where I felttruly comfortable to be fully
expressing of who I am, and so Iactually at one point actually
went back to some of the programstaff and kind of said like
(23:46):
listen, like I'm kind ofstruggling with this code
identity of being an educatorand being gay and like is there
anyone I can talk to about that?
And the answer was no.
Like they didn't know any gayeducators to like have me sit
down for coffee with to liketalk about that experience.
And I think for me that wasalmost the thing.
It was like more flummoxing.
I was like you don't know anygay educators, like there's not
(24:07):
a single one you can likeconnect me with and they're like
not in our network.
And so like it really took mefinding some people in my own,
my own circle to to kind ofbuild some of those connections.
But coming out of the classroomsetting which which is is a
little bit of a differentsetting than other kinds of
corporate settings that I'd beenin since then, just to kind of
flag that but in the steps thatI took from there, every single
(24:32):
job switch that I had, I wasmore and more open about my
identity and so and that lookeddifferent ways.
So the next switch that I madewas that I didn't hide it, like
if someone asked I would tellthem, and then the next job
after that I was, I would tellpeople.
It was like part of my intro orlike make sure that it was part
of, like you know, my firstconversation with people or
something like that, all the wayup until today.
The relationship I find myselfin today is not your standard
(24:53):
typical relationship.
So even in the vein of, I'vebecome much more comfortable in
my gay identity, particularly ina corporate and work setting
and knowing how I talk aboutthat and my language around that
, and also like my bullshitmeter too.
Apologies for the language here, but, like you know, what I'm
willing to accept or not acceptin a, in a, in a work setting.
In that vein, on myrelationship side because it's
(25:16):
an atypical relationship, Istill find myself trying to
understand and navigate a littlebit that there's still this
part of my identity that, likeI'm, I'm evolving, how it comes
into the workplace and so inthat vein, you know it's been,
it's been at first at one job Ididn't talk about that part of
my life.
I just, you know, I was openabout my queerness but I was not
open about my relationshipstatus.
And then the next one, I wasopen about relationship status
but they were kind of kept farapart.
(25:37):
Now I'm at a point where it'svery integrated into my
day-to-day with my coworkers butmy job is a very externally
facing job, so I don't bring itup in those types of
conversations very often, butwith my peers here internally I
will, and so it's I don't know.
I don't know what that means interms of like you know, if we
were to do an update, if I do ajob change at some point, what
my next evolution is going to be.
But I do.
(25:58):
It's interesting because I dolook at kind of job changes as
like milestone, as to likeeither my comfort with my
openness about my language, formy identity, as it kind of
continues to come to the world.
The last thing I'll kind of flaghere is that you know it's,
it's the world continues tochange, and so I agree with your
, your point that you made aboutthe guests that you're having
on the podcast this season of of.
(26:19):
You know, having some LGBTQvoices being present and vocal
is really important at thismoment in time.
At the same time, living in thecity of Chicago it's a
relatively progressive city andso I've also had the privilege
of working in like relativelyprogressive environments and so
it's also been interesting tofeel more and more comfortable
and more and more as thoughwhat's the right word here, um,
(26:43):
that people want to know butdon't care as much as they did
before.
It used to be a salacious thing, right, that you had a gay
coworker, and now it's kind oflike it's not.
It's not in the same way as itonce was for those of us that
are of a certain generation thatlike and I I think that you and
I identify a little bit in thisway, but just like I was
certain generation when that wasa really weird thing.
Justin (27:07):
And now it's like almost table stakes.
I don't know yeah reaction there.
No, I think there's um, you'remaking me think of, you know a,
the, the privilege, the luxuryof living in chicago and and
some of that automaticacceptance, because I so in my
journey, when I, before I, movedto chicago, um, you know, I was
working in an office in DesMoines, iowa, and I was actually
(27:28):
with the company that I movedto Chicago with.
It was a promotion, but I was asmaller branch in Des Moines and
I remember, if we look at themakeup of the office at that
point in time, there was a womanthat I worked with, woman who
you know living in Des Moines,iowa, and I remember kind of
(27:52):
being out in the office thereand she would say I don't know
that she ever said it to my face, but she told other people in
the office she's like Justin'stoo normal to be gay, like he's,
he's just in a phase and he'sgonna meet a nice woman and
settle down because he's.
(28:12):
She saw me as too quote, normal, yeah, to be, and I'm like,
wait, what do you think a gayperson is then?
Yes, and, and then I moved tochicago and I was working in you
know a large bank, um in thethe you know corporate
headquarters learningdevelopment department, like
half my team was gay and so itwas just a total paradigm shift
(28:37):
in like oh yeah, we're all gayhere, like you're in.
Jim (28:40):
You know that were the geography that you're in can
really influence that acceptanceyeah, you know what's
fascinating, justin, is we'vehad a bit of a theme around
overbearing as a a concept hereon the, the podcast, the episode
(29:04):
.
Um you, you were in heroverbearing moment.
Right, you were the recipientof the overbearing right.
Justin (29:11):
Yeah, absolutely Right.
You don't know that I've toldthat story yet, so flag that
story and there's another story,right?
Jim (29:19):
Everyone, there's a bonus episode coming soon.
Get ready, get ready.
Justin (29:22):
I know, and you know it's funny because I don't, I
don't, I still adore her, like Ithought she was great.
So I don't, you know, I don'tmean ill of you know for her in
telling that story, but it'sjust, you know, it's an
interesting perspective, yeah.
One other thing that I wantedto grab is something I was
(29:44):
thinking about, like you know,as an educator so early in your
career, kind of like, hey, wedon't really share much about
ourselves, um, with our students, because, you know, we kind of
need to be this like agnostic,almost figure.
And it actually made me thinkof, um, andrew huberman.
And if you listen to andrewhuberman, he's like what number
(30:06):
two podcast in the world.
Um, I listen to him regularlybut he talked like you'll always
see him in his podcast and he'slike in a black button-down
shirt like full sleeves, andhe's admitted before on I don't
know, in some podcasts maybe hisown, like he's covered in
tattoos, yeah, and, like youknow, talks about how he puts on
(30:28):
this persona in hisprofessional life as a professor
and in his podcasting world ofthis very like apolitical,
agnostic kind of person who isjust there to state the facts,
yeah, and so that's where I'm at.
I'm like thinking.
I'm just thinking about whereare those places in life where
(30:51):
we have to be kind of genericand is that okay?
Jim (30:56):
Ooh, that's a great question.
Well, I mean that's a greatquestion, justin.
I think my first response comesback to safety.
I think that for anyone who hassome form of an othered
identity, that's often one ofthe first places that that we
think of, right, like, is this asafe space for me to be who I
am?
And I think within that, wehave to acknowledge privilege.
Right, like I think of of my,my, my peers, who are people of
(31:18):
color, who cannot hide theirskin color or or hair color or
texture or whatever in any givencontext.
Right, my gain is, our gain, iswe can choose to cover, if we
want to, right, so we doactually get to choose, like
walking through a doorway, whowe are in that instance, based
on that quick read across theroom.
Right, so I think of that first, but then I also think very
(31:38):
quickly of, um, I have thenumber of rooms that I have been
in where I am the only queerperson in that room, or at least
the only one that's open aboutit, and clarified that and made
it known to others.
Right, we know that there's alot of folks that, for many
different reasons, don't feelcomfortable or aren't capable of
being able to have thatopenness, and so I have, in
(32:01):
those instances, tried very hardto be, as much as I can can,
the champion for those causes,right?
So I think of past leadershipteams that I've been a part of,
I think of panels that I sit on,I think of being a guest on a
podcast within a season, right,like, are there a variety of
voices that are coming to thetable At the same time?
(32:22):
It's really interesting.
There's an organization here inChicago or it's a national
organization, but the CEO ishere in Chicago called Startout.
It's an organization thatsupports LGBT entrepreneurs.
They do really fantasticprogramming, great work, awesome
stuff.
I've had the great privilege ofgetting to know them over the
last kind of year in my role andparticipate in a couple of
(32:42):
programs.
What's really interesting isthat, like when I even reflect
on my own understanding of, like, my gayness in a room or my own
understanding of my identity, Igo to a start out event and I'm
probably one of the least adeptpeople in that room to be able
to articulate my identity, andyet in most settings in my life,
I'm the most articulate andbeing able to identify or be
able to talk about my identitybecause I am the only one, and
(33:05):
so I think about it also, justlike the context and community
you're part of.
Also, like I think I'm the sameperson, but like when, in a
room of you know all LGBT peoplewho are able to really be able
to talk really, reallyeloquently about you, know how
they identify how that impactstheir lived experience, I find
myself humbled in those settings.
(33:26):
Yet I find myself in settingswhere I have to do that type of
talk because there's no one elseto do it.
It's an interesting balancebecause I'm the same person in
both but but, but not at thesame time.
Justin (33:37):
Yeah, yeah, there's um a bit of context of um, how do I
fit into this group and when'reI mean?
It's kind of like you know, uh,if we take the, the gay
identity out of it.
Like you know, if you were umtalking about neurobiology to a
(33:58):
bunch of people who were, uh,accountants, you could be like
really confident about it.
But if you were trying to talkabout neurobiology in front of a
room of other neurobiologists,you'd be like, oh gosh, they all
know more than I do and sothere's that positionality of do
(34:21):
I actually, does my experiencemean more?
do I have more than everyoneelse?
And so it becomes kind of thisintimidating thing.
Jim (34:30):
Yeah, and what's so interesting is that, like, there
are skills you can have right,in which case you have more
skill or less skill, or moreknowledge or less knowledge on a
thing, but when it comes toidentity, it's like it's not,
there's not, it's not a game,it's not a point system in which
you have 80 identity pointsbecause you've whatever right.
It's like we all have ouridentity and it is what it is.
But I totally agree with whatyou just said.
(34:52):
I step into a room of all queerfolks and it's it's often a bit
intimidating, because I'mrarely in a setting like that,
I'm rarely in community withwith people that share that part
of my identity with me.
In that same way, I often findmyself having to be the one
right.
Yeah, that's who?
And I think about that for afew minutes.
Justin (35:10):
Yeah, that's a good one to dig into and it's, it's
interesting.
Um, uh, I I'm definitely alittle teaser for some of the
work that I'm doing.
I'm, um, I've been digging deep, deep into authenticity and
where authenticity lives in ourbrains and like how, how
(35:30):
authenticity and identity areformed and spoiler.
Authenticity is a combinationof a who we are, but also who we
think everyone wants us to be.
And so there's an interestingmix there, and so I'm playing
there.
I haven't solved it all, butthat's all work for the second
edition.
(35:51):
That's a big one, huh, yeah,yeah, jim, I have really enjoyed
our conversation today andwe'll have to go have drinks in
the neighborhood soon.
Beings were literally my arm,twist my arm.
But thank you so much for forjoining us.
And if anyone wants to get incontact with you, how do they do
(36:14):
?
Jim (36:15):
Yeah, yeah.
So LinkedIn is easy.
Just search my name.
I usually pop up pretty quickly, if that's a little challenging
.
The firm I work for, hyde ParkVenture Partners, you can find
our website.
I have a profile on there andlinks to email and stuff like
that.
Feel free to reach out.
If any of the topics that wechatted about today resonate and
folks want to go a littledeeper, I would love to connect
further.
But also if folks just want totalk more about identity in the
(36:36):
workplace, identity in life, howwe figure stuff out, how we
build relationships with others,I'm all ears, let's chat.
Justin (36:55):
Awesome.
Thank you, jim, and thank youall for listening and join us
again for another episode soon.
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