March 6, 2024 • 33 mins
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As we grapple with the intricacies of forging genuinely inclusive spaces, Nancy Lyons, a tech innovator and staunch advocate for workplace diversity, lends her voice to our latest conversation. With Nancy at the helm of Clockwork and Tempo, her journey as a queer woman carving out a progressive company culture is both inspiring and instructive. Her stories, rich with the trials and triumphs of embedding inclusion into the DNA of a business, remind us that the pursuit of a welcoming environment is an ongoing, deliberate process. Nancy's recount of a colleague's struggle to reconcile his faith with a modern workplace ethos sheds light on how even the best-intentioned inclusivity initiatives can inadvertently marginalize, urging us to listen, learn, and adapt.
The dialogue turns deeply personal as Nancy reflects on a transformative exchange with a junior employee, probing the intersection of faith and leadership. It's a testament to the power of empathy in leadership, illustrating that understanding and mentorship can coexist with a multitude of beliefs. By embracing the complexities that each individual brings to the table, Nancy's leadership narrative challenges us to consider love and compassion as the cornerstones of not just personal faith, but of corporate culture. Join us for this thought-provoking episode where we confront the realities of fostering true belonging, navigating differences with grace, and the continuous evolution required to lead with inclusivity at the forefront.
You can order your copy of Creating Belonging on Amazon.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Justin (00:08):
Welcome to another episode of the Creating
Belonging podcast.
Today I have with me NancyLyons.
Nancy, if you wouldn't mindjust introducing yourself.
Nancy (00:18):
Sure, I'm happy to Thanks for having me first.
So I am Nancy Lyons.
I live in Minneapolis,minnesota, and I am a co-founder
and CEO of an experienceddesign and technology
consultancy called Clockwork.
I also am a co-founder of a lowcode no code agile studio
called Tempo, and I've written acouple of books.
(00:41):
I'm a keynote speaker and I'malso the.
For the purpose of thisparticular podcast, I will share
that.
I'm also a chair emeritus foran organization called Family
Equality, which is the leadingnational organization working
for lived and legal equality forLGBTQ plus families and those
that want to form them.
Justin (01:03):
Great.
Thank you, nancy, and most ofour listeners are used to us
kind of starting theconversation with just
disclosure of identities, so Iwant to take a moment and to see
if there are any identitiesthat you'd like to share to
anchor us in our conversation.
Nancy (01:19):
Sure Thanks for asking.
Well, my pronouns are she, her,they, them.
And I am a queer, a woman, I amwhite, I am a mother, I am a
spouse, I'm also a badass.
Justin (01:38):
Okay, I love the some of the random identities that come
up.
I'm like badass, like I is.
I love that as an identity.
I got to add that to the listof excellent.
Well, so, as Nancy and I werejust chatting before we were
getting started and I'm excitedto dive into this conversation
(02:01):
we were talking about thecreating the longing model, and
Nancy was sharing an experiencethat she had had with a number
of years back when she was goinginto another organization, I
believe, doing some consulting,and so I would love to kind of
dig into that story.
If you wouldn't share it, let'sstart there and then see where
we go.
Nancy (02:20):
Sure, sure.
Well, yeah, it was anorganization that I actually
worked inside of and I hadbecome, I'd sort of worked my
way up the ranks and this wassort of my early managerial
career, if you will, and I waslearning how to lead people
right, and a lot of it waspretty organic.
There wasn't.
You know, we were young and itwas a technology company and it
(02:41):
was in the 90s, and what we knewat the time was we wanted to be
values driven and we wanted tobring our authentic selves and
we wanted people to have adifferent experience with this
organization than they had hadin other workplaces.
In other words, we wanted themto feel free to bring their
whole selves and, to you know,bring their authentic selves.
(03:01):
And we wanted and this wasbefore the language of belonging
was really in play.
So we were working really hardto create our own language, but
also to make a space that wasopen to people of.
You know, I don't even think wethe language of diversity was
(03:22):
was existed at that point intime.
I don't think there certainlywasn't a real effort to create
belonging, but the reality wasthat's what we were trying to
create.
So in doing that, I think weall sort of coalesced around a
shared set of very progressivevalues.
Right, we were, you know, wedidn't have a dress code.
(03:44):
It was a technology company.
We made software and websitesin the early days of software,
internet software and websites.
So we didn't have a dress code,we didn't really have a starter
end time.
It was really results oriented.
We were remote before remotewas even a conversation in the
technology space.
We let people sort of buildtheir own schedules, benefit
(04:04):
from flexibility, bring theirsort of, you know, experiences,
and you know, for me as a, as aqueer woman, it was really
important for me to be able tobe out and safe, right, and so
we wanted that for everyone elsetoo, and we believe that that's
what we were creating.
And I had this experience with acolleague who was just really a
(04:28):
gifted engineer, and this wasone of those moments that I will
never forget.
I'm very outgoing, I'm verytalkative.
He is an engineer who likes tobe in quiet spaces in the dark,
and we were somehow pairedtogether to drive to Iowa to
deliver a pitch to anagricultural organization, and
it was in that six hour drive inthe car.
(04:49):
You know where we were, wherewe were being inundated with the
smell of turkey farming.
It was thrilling.
I remember thinking, I remembersaying out loud like what is
that?
It's horrible.
And interestingly enough, wealso enjoyed a couple of fun
little side trips, little fieldtrips on the way back.
After we had this moment thatI'm about to share with you, we
(05:12):
were suddenly so comfortablewith each other that we stopped
at one of those either sort ofliving museums.
You know the HomesteadFarmstead Living Museum.
And we weren't friends, weweren't close, we barely knew
each other.
We worked together and he wasvery quiet.
But this moment that I'm aboutto share actually brought us
(05:32):
closer to the point where wewere taking pictures of each
other standing, you know, in anold farmhouse next to somebody
dressed up like Laura IngallsWilder.
But the moment itself was tenseand I realized, you know, sort
of my own failing or my owntunnel vision, because my
colleague was telling me howmuch he appreciated the place
(05:57):
where we both worked, but thathe was feeling confused and sort
of well, marginalized.
And what he revealed was, whilewe were so busy trying to
create this safe space foreveryone, he was feeling like it
wasn't okay for him to be aChristian, a person of faith,
(06:19):
and that it wasn't okay for himto acknowledge that to.
You know, share any of his sortof faith based interests.
You know a lot of people findcommunity in their churches.
He didn't feel safe talkingabout his church.
A lot of people find, you know,enjoy their family in the
context of church or their faith.
(06:41):
A lot of people, you knowthere's so much that
Christianity does to influencehow we, how, how a Christian
lives, and what he was trying toexplain to me was there was
just no room for that.
And I have to admit and I'vealready admitted to you that it
was a stunning revelation for me, because here I thought I was
(07:04):
working hard to make space foreverybody and in fact I was
making space for a lot of peoplethat were perhaps usually
marginalized or kept out ofthose conversations that lead to
belonging.
But in doing so I wasmarginalizing my white Christian
(07:28):
colleague and it made me feellousy, mostly because I really
felt committed to that purpose,like in my mind.
He should have felt safe, beinga person of faith, in the
environment we were creatingtogether.
He should have felt okay and Iactually had a lot of admiration
(07:52):
for him for saying it and notjust sort of tamping it down and
letting his masculinity sort ofdrive the conversation and
express himself as not beingafraid of anything.
I think that was the optionthat certainly where a lot of
(08:13):
people would have gone.
You know I'm tough, I'm aleader, I can manage this, it's
not important.
But clearly his faith was soimportant to him that he found a
moment where it was essentialfor him to share that and I
think in that moment you and Iwere talking about that concept
of being overbearing, and Irealized, as you were talking,
(08:38):
that that's exactly what I was,and I believed that we all saw
the world the same way and thatwe were all operating under the
same set of assumptions, andbecause of that, I made no room
for this man and whomever elseidentified in a similar way with
him on our staff.
Justin (08:56):
Yeah, nancy, thank you for sharing that.
I think it's interesting becauseit really drives home the point
that there's some research thatI reference in the book around
traditional approaches to DEIB.
And you're talking about a timebefore those letters existed and
(09:17):
I mean, I definitely rememberwhen I started the work it was
just diversity and that was inthe 2000s and so, yeah, the DEIB
wasn't in that lexicon backthen.
But as we look at the researchand the typical approaches and
some of the challenges, thatkind of multicultural approach
(09:38):
which is much more common today,where differences are
celebrated, non-marginalizedindividuals are celebrated,
which is great, it isoff-putting or makes others feel
marginalized who aren'ttypically marginalized.
And it's interesting becausefor me the biggest thing is like
(10:03):
and I don't know how many timesI say this whenever I reference
that work it's not that I havea problem with making white men
uncomfortable, including myselfbut the problem is that they're
often the people that we need toget on board to help make room
for everyone and ensure that ourinclusion and belonging efforts
(10:29):
are actually working.
So it's interesting.
I'm curious to dig into that alittle bit more.
What else did he share in thatconversation that made him feel
othered or marginalized?
Nancy (10:50):
Well, I do think that because the time was the 90s,
the late 90s.
I'm aging myself here, but wewere all very young.
We were typical Gen Xers.
We looked like we were out of amovie, like a Winona writer
Ethan Hawke will be right Likereality bites.
(11:11):
We were all wearing our flanneland our jeans.
We were non-conformist.
We were going to make change.
In some ways, we were rejectingthe establishment.
I think what he represented forhimself in the context of all
that was exactly what we wererejecting.
It was interesting because hewas a pretty shy guy.
(11:34):
He wasn't terribly, theconversation wasn't really
lengthy, he didn't spend a lotof time emoting, he was very
direct.
When I think about it I'm notnaming this person for a variety
of reasons but when you thinkabout it over time, what I've
(11:56):
realized is that he, too,probably lived in the context of
a number of identities, one ofwhich may have been
neurodivergent, because the waythat he expressed this and I'm
not trying to diagnose somebodythat I'm not close to, but the
way that he expressed it was somatter of fact and so direct and
(12:19):
so lacking in additionaldetails that I wish I could
answer that question in athrilling way for you.
What he said was pretty pointblank.
It was I don't feel safe beingChristian.
I don't think you all thinkabout those people in your midst
(12:41):
that have values that aredifferent from yours To me.
Here's the thing I don't thinkvalues.
I think values are somethingthat we can share, regardless of
our identities.
For me, you can be a Christianand I am a person of faith,
(13:03):
probably more on the agnosticside, just because I think
there's no way.
This all just.
I believe in science, but Ialso believe science may have
come from.
We don't need to get into me.
My point is I believe thatpeople who don't believe in
Christianity can also live by amoral code that resembles I'm
(13:25):
going to tread lightly here thegood side of Christian morality,
not the judgmental, I don'tknow.
Not the judgmental, difficultside that sometimes I witness in
the world the condemnation, thehellfire and damnation.
(13:48):
But the teachings of Jesus arereally the ideal moral code,
whether you believe in Jesus asthe Son of God or Jesus as a
prophet or a man walking theearth.
This idea that we should loveeach other as we love ourselves,
that we should do right by ourneighbor, that we shouldn't harm
(14:09):
others or be selfish, that weshould share and care for one
another.
My God, my God, I mean, there'sno reason for us not to be able
to subscribe to a moral codethat looks like that.
So it was interesting to me thathe was actually speaking of
values and suggesting that wedidn't share them, when in fact,
(14:32):
I think part of the reason whyI was so deluded at the time is
because I guess I thought we alljust want to care for each
other, we all just want tocollaborate and share, we all
just want to make space for oneanother, we all want to feel
safe at work, and there wassomething about his Christianity
that he didn't articulate inthat moment that made him feel
(14:54):
like it wasn't safe.
Now I will say we had very vocaland this was also before HR was
terribly advanced and caught upto the current cultural
conversation we had very vocalpeople who condemned
Christianity at the time in ahateful way, but just in a
dismissive way, and so I'm surethat someone actually said
(15:19):
something around him that madehim feel small and I think that
may have been what he wasreacting to and, like I said, I
think it was a super brave thingfor him to bring up and it was
something that I was able toaddress in a more covert way
when I got home.
It wasn't like I was like we'regoing to love Christians, now
let's make space for theChristians, but I was able to
(15:43):
speak to the leadership team andthe rest of the staff in a
different setting, just aboutour need to really expand our
definition of inclusion, whatthat can't just be people that
agree with us, and actually Ithink that's what the world is
suffering from right now.
Right, like we want to beinclusive only if we all feel
(16:05):
the same way about how thingswork.
No-transcript, it's notpossible.
Justin (16:11):
Yeah, oh, my gosh, okay, there's so many directions I
want to go.
Sorry, I'm going to start withvalues, because I know I've told
this story several times andmaybe even on the podcast, but
I'm going to share it with you,kind of in the context of this,
because I think it's meaningful.
So several years ago, in mywork of diversity, I worked for
(16:31):
a very large global organizationand so diversity there is, like
we're, literally in many, manycountries.
So let's start with the factthat we are, by nature, a very
diverse organization and veryculturally diverse.
Anyway, I ended a session ondiversity when the message was
about holding people in a placeof acceptance and appreciation
(16:58):
and that tolerance is not enough, that if you ever felt
tolerated, that's just notactually a great feeling.
And there was a woman who cameup to me after the session and
very unironically said Justin,my faith tells me that I can't
accept gay people.
(17:19):
And so you're telling me thatthe organization is telling me
that I need to accept gay people, but my faith tells me that I
can't and in front of me which Ilove the irony and of course,
have to conjure up all kinds ofstrength in that moment of like.
Okay, well, let's have theright conversation here and
(17:43):
calmly.
And I did say look, it soundslike your values may not align
with the values of your employerand you may need to evaluate
that and choose whether you wantto work for an employer that
has values that don't align withyours.
The interesting part of thatand this is going to dovetail
(18:06):
into what you were saying ofthat kind of general moral code
is I'm like I actually I don'tthink if, if of the Christian
faith.
I don't think anybody saiddon't accept gay people.
You can interpret.
I'm not going to debate likeinterpret 5000 ways of the
scripture, of whether it's rightor wrong.
However, there are somespecific things that I
(18:28):
understand about the Christianfaith that are like love others
as yourself, except everyone,just much, no one, like all of
those kinds of things that don'tline up right.
So I just think it'sinteresting.
Anyway, I'm going to pausethere and get some great
questions.
Nancy (18:46):
Yeah, you know, actually, if I, if I may, I'd like to
share another really interestingstory in it and it and it and
it touches on what you just said, and it and it and it also
speaks to my own evolution as aleader.
So, cut to later, in the 2000s,when I was a co, I'd be, I was
a co founder of the company thatI am the CEO of.
(19:08):
Now We've been around a longtime I think that's the story
you're hearing.
So have I ancient and I hadreally worked hard to make space
for people that had, you know,different opinions and different
belief systems from me, from us, and, and I, and over the years
(19:32):
, at this point I had had somereally interesting conversations
with other folks of faith whowere deeply enmeshed in, you
know, doc, dogma and andreligion and communities of
religion, and and enjoyed thoseconversations.
And I had a young man who hadstarted with us.
(19:54):
I think if he didn't start asan intern, he started as a, as a
very junior level front endengineer, slash designer, and he
and I had become you know, it'sso different from now, because
it was so early in our in ourstory that I had relationships
(20:17):
with everybody and now I don't.
I don't work on the deliveryside of the business, so it's so
different to even think aboutthis and this story is probably
going to stun folks that I workwith too.
And he and I had an opportunityto get to know each other a
little.
We had done some of our one onones and I'm a very approachable
(20:38):
person.
Once you get to know me, peopletell me all the time oh, you
scare me.
It's like cool.
But you know, whatever I can'tdo anything about it.
This I'm big, that's my, that'smy personality, that's what it
is.
But this young man had gottento a place where he felt
comfortable enough to approachme and I always encourage.
I have this open door.
You can direct message meanytime.
(20:59):
We can have any conversationyou want, if there's you know,
if you need counsel or mentoringor you have criticism or
feedback, I'm open, right, andthis fellow.
We were all sort of working on atight deadline.
It was, it was nighttime, wewere all in our homes and this
was when I don't know if we wereusing like IRC.
It was before Slack, it wasbefore Slack days and we were
(21:20):
using some direct messagingapplication.
He messaged me and I opened themessage and he said I you know
what, I don't want to fightabout you, but how do you feel
about the fact that you're goingto help?
And it was like like I'm, I'mthe CEO and he is the newest
hire at the junior risk leveland you know, in any other, in
(21:44):
any other organization, thatwould be problematic.
So I was proud that it wasn'tin my own.
You know that I mean, I'venever.
I can honestly say, regardlessof my personal feelings or my
personal relationships inside ofthe organization there've only
been one or two times where Ihave really given myself grief
for treating somebody unfairly.
(22:05):
But for the most part I reallywork not to treat anybody unfair
or to operate out of takingsomething personally.
I can't say that I don'toperate from emotion.
So he asked me how I felt aboutgoing to hell and I thought
about it a minute and Iremembered I had this mentor who
was also a person of faith andhe and I had had a conversation
(22:28):
and he shared, you know, thislittle bit of wisdom with me
that I then shared with thisyoung man and I said you know, I
said I don't profess to beingcapable of speaking for God.
I sometimes worry about peoplewho are, and I certainly don't
take aspects of the Bibleliterally, because it has been
(22:49):
through so much and so manytranslations and so many
writings and rewritings, andlet's not even start with the
origins and why it was writtenin the first place.
But what I do know is that whenChrist was asked what what God
really wants from us, he reallywants from us, he said simply to
(23:13):
love God and love each other.
And I know that I do that.
I know that I am showing up forthe thing that Christ said God
cares about the most, and when Ithink about God, I may not
think about the same being thatyou do, but God also said we are
made in His image.
(23:35):
So, taking a page from yourscripture, if I love people, if
I truly care for people, I amdoing what your God is asking of
me and I don't feel like thatGod is going to condemn me to
(23:58):
torment, because I do genuinelycare about people and I do work
to help those that are lessfortunate than me or to work to
create spaces where marginalizedpeople can exist freely and
openly.
I do work to be a decentemployer, a decent human.
(24:19):
I'm not a greedy white lady,and he really accepted that.
I think it really threw Him off.
He was hoping to challenge meand I think he didn't know how
to respond to it, and weactually became very close and
are still in touch to this day.
He no longer works with us.
(24:40):
He's now a leader in his ownright In a company.
I actually saw a picture of Himrecently.
He's bald that's how old I am.
I have a young man who hasgrown up and is now bald on my
network, but I was glad to havethat response for him and it's
helped inform how I respond toother people that ask equally as
(25:02):
difficult questions relative totheir Christianity.
Justin (25:08):
Yeah, it's such a great response and it also just makes
me think of the individual whoinitiated that conversation,
like what's the objective?
Is the objective to have anargument or is the objective to
convert you to something?
I love your response and I lovehow that landed.
Nancy (25:35):
Yeah, I mean, he's actually a really lovely guy.
He was so young and soinfluenced by his parents and
his church, and so I don't thinkhe'd gotten to a point where
critical thinking was part ofhis resume, if you will.
(25:56):
I think he's matured and Idoubt that he would ever ask a
CEO of a company that questionagain.
But we have great respect foreach other and he is still a
fine Christian man that I thinkhe's a lovely guy.
But I do think to your questionwas he trying to have a fight?
(26:18):
I actually think he was worriedabout me.
I think that was it.
I think it was such a youwanted to challenge me, but I
think he was worried about me.
He was worried about my soul,and I hope that what I said to
him made him realize that mysoul is not for him to worry
about.
Justin (26:34):
Yeah, yeah.
Nancy (26:36):
This is not where I thought our conversation was
going to go.
By the way, this is fast.
I talked more aboutChristianity today than I have
in the last 10 years.
We're welcome.
Justin (26:45):
So I love it, though I love it because about two months
ago so I'm working on thesecond edition of the book and
I'm thinking about what are thechapters I'm adding, what's the
research I want to add?
And it is not in the outlineyet and I'm not sure I'm
committed to or would put it in.
(27:06):
But I've thought about areligion chapter, creating
belonging and religion, becauseso much exclusion happens in the
name of religion.
And I'm not saying that allreligions are exclusive, but I
am saying exclusion happens inthe name of religion.
(27:27):
And you know, if you look atthe religion that I'm most
familiar with, being inChristianity, I'm like, yeah,
just like you say, like,actually, if we're really
examining it, that's not like weneed to be inclusive, that's
what, right, that's what we'retold.
(27:48):
So, really examining that, butlike I'm just putting it there
that I've entertained it, but itseems like a really deep rabbit
hole.
Nancy (28:01):
Yeah, that would be quite the quagmire, and yet I love
the idea of it.
I do Because I think religionis being weaponized and at its
core, you know, there's nothingwrong with faith.
You know, faith is what hasgotten us through generations of
trauma, you know, for manypeople, not all, and so I think
(28:24):
if we could find a way to findeach other in spite of, and
through and with our faith, Ithink that would be phenomenal.
I mean, think about it rightnow Our government is
weaponizing religion, andreligion is weaponizing our
government against, you know, ahuge faction of the population,
(28:48):
and it's really troubling andunfortunate.
It's unfortunate.
You know I was raised in anIrish Catholic family.
My mother converted frombaptism.
My grandma didn't care that Iwas gay but she was really upset
that my mom went from Baptistto Catholicism.
(29:08):
And at our core we all, youknow I would go to the Baptist
church when I visited mygrandmother.
We all at our core, the message, the values, the ways of being,
you know the expectations, areso similar.
I mean there's much more ritualand money, quite frankly, in
(29:29):
the Catholic church Don't get mestarted, but you know, at its
core my grandmother was a deeplyloving, you know, god-fearing
but generous, caring human being.
And you know my parents weredecent human beings too, or are
decent.
(29:49):
One of them are and were, and Ithink a lot of it came from how
they felt about their faith.
But I couldn't subscribebecause the, you know, the
institution didn't want me andthen I became a more critical
(30:10):
thinker as a result.
Justin (30:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've talked a bit about my evolution
as well, over well, for threeyears in the work, so I'll say
that those times, but I think soto close this out.
Actually, I just want to grabthis like interesting parallel
(30:36):
of because I'm always talkingback to the model that's the
best model and it's sointeresting of like actually, in
what your response to thatemployee was we are made in his
image and so we are acelebration of God, right, and
so if we think aboutauthenticity in showing up as
(30:59):
ourselves and loving ourselvesas being made in his own image
and loving others being ex-ex-ex, that's it.
That's the creating, thelearning model.
Nancy (31:16):
That's everything.
Justin (31:17):
I mean, maybe it all goes back to my roots of like,
my like.
How would you call it?
Oh my gosh, no one can think ofit Like confirmation.
Nancy (31:32):
Oh, confirmation sure.
Justin (31:34):
Yeah.
Nancy (31:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The seeds were planted, yeahlook, the essence of all of it,
the essence of faith, theessence of spirituality, is good
and whole and decent.
It's people who have corruptedand weaponized those things, but
I think what you just said isthe reason I am on this earth.
Justin (31:58):
Yeah, yes, absolutely Me too.
Nancy (32:03):
I love it.
We're gonna have to.
Okay, we're gonna meet inperson.
Justin (32:06):
I know we definitely will meet in person.
Yeah, and I love.
I love where this conversationwent today.
Totally not what I expected onthis Tuesday afternoon, but it's
still amazing.
Nancy, real quick before weclose out.
How can people find you and getin touch with you?
Nancy (32:26):
Oh well, easy.
I have a website.
My personal website for myspeaking in my books is
NancyLionscom.
Super easy, l-y-o-n-s.
You can find my company,clockwork, at Clockworkcom.
You can find Tempo atMadeByTempocom and you can find
me on all the socials at Nylons.
That's because I've been onthere a really long time and my
(32:49):
name is Nancy Lions and AnneLions.
Everybody saw Nylons so I usedit, but now the young people
don't even know what Nylons are,so that's a whole other podcast
.
Justin (32:59):
There's this great Gen X meme that I've seen recently.
That is something like Regretis your first screen names on
the internet.
Absolutely, Absolutely.
Nancy (33:12):
Yes, that's a good one.
I gotta find it.
Justin (33:15):
Oh, great, well, Nancy, thank you so much for the time
today.
I really appreciate it.
And, renelle, stay tuned foranother episode of the Creating
Blowing Podcast.
Thanks, thanks for having me.
Welcome to another episode of the Creating
Belonging podcast.
Today I have with me NancyLyons.
Nancy, if you wouldn't mindjust introducing yourself.
Nancy (00:18):
Sure, I'm happy to Thanks for having me first.
So I am Nancy Lyons.
I live in Minneapolis,minnesota, and I am a co-founder
and CEO of an experienceddesign and technology
consultancy called Clockwork.
I also am a co-founder of a lowcode no code agile studio
called Tempo, and I've written acouple of books.
(00:41):
I'm a keynote speaker and I'malso the.
For the purpose of thisparticular podcast, I will share
that.
I'm also a chair emeritus foran organization called Family
Equality, which is the leadingnational organization working
for lived and legal equality forLGBTQ plus families and those
that want to form them.
Justin (01:03):
Great.
Thank you, nancy, and most ofour listeners are used to us
kind of starting theconversation with just
disclosure of identities, so Iwant to take a moment and to see
if there are any identitiesthat you'd like to share to
anchor us in our conversation.
Nancy (01:19):
Sure Thanks for asking.
Well, my pronouns are she, her,they, them.
And I am a queer, a woman, I amwhite, I am a mother, I am a
spouse, I'm also a badass.
Justin (01:38):
Okay, I love the some of the random identities that come
up.
I'm like badass, like I is.
I love that as an identity.
I got to add that to the listof excellent.
Well, so, as Nancy and I werejust chatting before we were
getting started and I'm excitedto dive into this conversation
(02:01):
we were talking about thecreating the longing model, and
Nancy was sharing an experiencethat she had had with a number
of years back when she was goinginto another organization, I
believe, doing some consulting,and so I would love to kind of
dig into that story.
If you wouldn't share it, let'sstart there and then see where
we go.
Nancy (02:20):
Sure, sure.
Well, yeah, it was anorganization that I actually
worked inside of and I hadbecome, I'd sort of worked my
way up the ranks and this wassort of my early managerial
career, if you will, and I waslearning how to lead people
right, and a lot of it waspretty organic.
There wasn't.
You know, we were young and itwas a technology company and it
(02:41):
was in the 90s, and what we knewat the time was we wanted to be
values driven and we wanted tobring our authentic selves and
we wanted people to have adifferent experience with this
organization than they had hadin other workplaces.
In other words, we wanted themto feel free to bring their
whole selves and, to you know,bring their authentic selves.
(03:01):
And we wanted and this wasbefore the language of belonging
was really in play.
So we were working really hardto create our own language, but
also to make a space that wasopen to people of.
You know, I don't even think wethe language of diversity was
(03:22):
was existed at that point intime.
I don't think there certainlywasn't a real effort to create
belonging, but the reality wasthat's what we were trying to
create.
So in doing that, I think weall sort of coalesced around a
shared set of very progressivevalues.
Right, we were, you know, wedidn't have a dress code.
(03:44):
It was a technology company.
We made software and websitesin the early days of software,
internet software and websites.
So we didn't have a dress code,we didn't really have a starter
end time.
It was really results oriented.
We were remote before remotewas even a conversation in the
technology space.
We let people sort of buildtheir own schedules, benefit
(04:04):
from flexibility, bring theirsort of, you know, experiences,
and you know, for me as a, as aqueer woman, it was really
important for me to be able tobe out and safe, right, and so
we wanted that for everyone elsetoo, and we believe that that's
what we were creating.
And I had this experience with acolleague who was just really a
(04:28):
gifted engineer, and this wasone of those moments that I will
never forget.
I'm very outgoing, I'm verytalkative.
He is an engineer who likes tobe in quiet spaces in the dark,
and we were somehow pairedtogether to drive to Iowa to
deliver a pitch to anagricultural organization, and
it was in that six hour drive inthe car.
(04:49):
You know where we were, wherewe were being inundated with the
smell of turkey farming.
It was thrilling.
I remember thinking, I remembersaying out loud like what is
that?
It's horrible.
And interestingly enough, wealso enjoyed a couple of fun
little side trips, little fieldtrips on the way back.
After we had this moment thatI'm about to share with you, we
(05:12):
were suddenly so comfortablewith each other that we stopped
at one of those either sort ofliving museums.
You know the HomesteadFarmstead Living Museum.
And we weren't friends, weweren't close, we barely knew
each other.
We worked together and he wasvery quiet.
But this moment that I'm aboutto share actually brought us
(05:32):
closer to the point where wewere taking pictures of each
other standing, you know, in anold farmhouse next to somebody
dressed up like Laura IngallsWilder.
But the moment itself was tenseand I realized, you know, sort
of my own failing or my owntunnel vision, because my
colleague was telling me howmuch he appreciated the place
(05:57):
where we both worked, but thathe was feeling confused and sort
of well, marginalized.
And what he revealed was, whilewe were so busy trying to
create this safe space foreveryone, he was feeling like it
wasn't okay for him to be aChristian, a person of faith,
(06:19):
and that it wasn't okay for himto acknowledge that to.
You know, share any of his sortof faith based interests.
You know a lot of people findcommunity in their churches.
He didn't feel safe talkingabout his church.
A lot of people find, you know,enjoy their family in the
context of church or their faith.
(06:41):
A lot of people, you knowthere's so much that
Christianity does to influencehow we, how, how a Christian
lives, and what he was trying toexplain to me was there was
just no room for that.
And I have to admit and I'vealready admitted to you that it
was a stunning revelation for me, because here I thought I was
(07:04):
working hard to make space foreverybody and in fact I was
making space for a lot of peoplethat were perhaps usually
marginalized or kept out ofthose conversations that lead to
belonging.
But in doing so I wasmarginalizing my white Christian
(07:28):
colleague and it made me feellousy, mostly because I really
felt committed to that purpose,like in my mind.
He should have felt safe, beinga person of faith, in the
environment we were creatingtogether.
He should have felt okay and Iactually had a lot of admiration
(07:52):
for him for saying it and notjust sort of tamping it down and
letting his masculinity sort ofdrive the conversation and
express himself as not beingafraid of anything.
I think that was the optionthat certainly where a lot of
(08:13):
people would have gone.
You know I'm tough, I'm aleader, I can manage this, it's
not important.
But clearly his faith was soimportant to him that he found a
moment where it was essentialfor him to share that and I
think in that moment you and Iwere talking about that concept
of being overbearing, and Irealized, as you were talking,
(08:38):
that that's exactly what I was,and I believed that we all saw
the world the same way and thatwe were all operating under the
same set of assumptions, andbecause of that, I made no room
for this man and whomever elseidentified in a similar way with
him on our staff.
Justin (08:56):
Yeah, nancy, thank you for sharing that.
I think it's interesting becauseit really drives home the point
that there's some research thatI reference in the book around
traditional approaches to DEIB.
And you're talking about a timebefore those letters existed and
(09:17):
I mean, I definitely rememberwhen I started the work it was
just diversity and that was inthe 2000s and so, yeah, the DEIB
wasn't in that lexicon backthen.
But as we look at the researchand the typical approaches and
some of the challenges, thatkind of multicultural approach
(09:38):
which is much more common today,where differences are
celebrated, non-marginalizedindividuals are celebrated,
which is great, it isoff-putting or makes others feel
marginalized who aren'ttypically marginalized.
And it's interesting becausefor me the biggest thing is like
(10:03):
and I don't know how many timesI say this whenever I reference
that work it's not that I havea problem with making white men
uncomfortable, including myselfbut the problem is that they're
often the people that we need toget on board to help make room
for everyone and ensure that ourinclusion and belonging efforts
(10:29):
are actually working.
So it's interesting.
I'm curious to dig into that alittle bit more.
What else did he share in thatconversation that made him feel
othered or marginalized?
Nancy (10:50):
Well, I do think that because the time was the 90s,
the late 90s.
I'm aging myself here, but wewere all very young.
We were typical Gen Xers.
We looked like we were out of amovie, like a Winona writer
Ethan Hawke will be right Likereality bites.
(11:11):
We were all wearing our flanneland our jeans.
We were non-conformist.
We were going to make change.
In some ways, we were rejectingthe establishment.
I think what he represented forhimself in the context of all
that was exactly what we wererejecting.
It was interesting because hewas a pretty shy guy.
(11:34):
He wasn't terribly, theconversation wasn't really
lengthy, he didn't spend a lotof time emoting, he was very
direct.
When I think about it I'm notnaming this person for a variety
of reasons but when you thinkabout it over time, what I've
(11:56):
realized is that he, too,probably lived in the context of
a number of identities, one ofwhich may have been
neurodivergent, because the waythat he expressed this and I'm
not trying to diagnose somebodythat I'm not close to, but the
way that he expressed it was somatter of fact and so direct and
(12:19):
so lacking in additionaldetails that I wish I could
answer that question in athrilling way for you.
What he said was pretty pointblank.
It was I don't feel safe beingChristian.
I don't think you all thinkabout those people in your midst
(12:41):
that have values that aredifferent from yours To me.
Here's the thing I don't thinkvalues.
I think values are somethingthat we can share, regardless of
our identities.
For me, you can be a Christianand I am a person of faith,
(13:03):
probably more on the agnosticside, just because I think
there's no way.
This all just.
I believe in science, but Ialso believe science may have
come from.
We don't need to get into me.
My point is I believe thatpeople who don't believe in
Christianity can also live by amoral code that resembles I'm
(13:25):
going to tread lightly here thegood side of Christian morality,
not the judgmental, I don'tknow.
Not the judgmental, difficultside that sometimes I witness in
the world the condemnation, thehellfire and damnation.
(13:48):
But the teachings of Jesus arereally the ideal moral code,
whether you believe in Jesus asthe Son of God or Jesus as a
prophet or a man walking theearth.
This idea that we should loveeach other as we love ourselves,
that we should do right by ourneighbor, that we shouldn't harm
(14:09):
others or be selfish, that weshould share and care for one
another.
My God, my God, I mean, there'sno reason for us not to be able
to subscribe to a moral codethat looks like that.
So it was interesting to me thathe was actually speaking of
values and suggesting that wedidn't share them, when in fact,
(14:32):
I think part of the reason whyI was so deluded at the time is
because I guess I thought we alljust want to care for each
other, we all just want tocollaborate and share, we all
just want to make space for oneanother, we all want to feel
safe at work, and there wassomething about his Christianity
that he didn't articulate inthat moment that made him feel
(14:54):
like it wasn't safe.
Now I will say we had very vocaland this was also before HR was
terribly advanced and caught upto the current cultural
conversation we had very vocalpeople who condemned
Christianity at the time in ahateful way, but just in a
dismissive way, and so I'm surethat someone actually said
(15:19):
something around him that madehim feel small and I think that
may have been what he wasreacting to and, like I said, I
think it was a super brave thingfor him to bring up and it was
something that I was able toaddress in a more covert way
when I got home.
It wasn't like I was like we'regoing to love Christians, now
let's make space for theChristians, but I was able to
(15:43):
speak to the leadership team andthe rest of the staff in a
different setting, just aboutour need to really expand our
definition of inclusion, whatthat can't just be people that
agree with us, and actually Ithink that's what the world is
suffering from right now.
Right, like we want to beinclusive only if we all feel
(16:05):
the same way about how thingswork.
No-transcript, it's notpossible.
Justin (16:11):
Yeah, oh, my gosh, okay, there's so many directions I
want to go.
Sorry, I'm going to start withvalues, because I know I've told
this story several times andmaybe even on the podcast, but
I'm going to share it with you,kind of in the context of this,
because I think it's meaningful.
So several years ago, in mywork of diversity, I worked for
(16:31):
a very large global organizationand so diversity there is, like
we're, literally in many, manycountries.
So let's start with the factthat we are, by nature, a very
diverse organization and veryculturally diverse.
Anyway, I ended a session ondiversity when the message was
about holding people in a placeof acceptance and appreciation
(16:58):
and that tolerance is not enough, that if you ever felt
tolerated, that's just notactually a great feeling.
And there was a woman who cameup to me after the session and
very unironically said Justin,my faith tells me that I can't
accept gay people.
(17:19):
And so you're telling me thatthe organization is telling me
that I need to accept gay people, but my faith tells me that I
can't and in front of me which Ilove the irony and of course,
have to conjure up all kinds ofstrength in that moment of like.
Okay, well, let's have theright conversation here and
(17:43):
calmly.
And I did say look, it soundslike your values may not align
with the values of your employerand you may need to evaluate
that and choose whether you wantto work for an employer that
has values that don't align withyours.
The interesting part of thatand this is going to dovetail
(18:06):
into what you were saying ofthat kind of general moral code
is I'm like I actually I don'tthink if, if of the Christian
faith.
I don't think anybody saiddon't accept gay people.
You can interpret.
I'm not going to debate likeinterpret 5000 ways of the
scripture, of whether it's rightor wrong.
However, there are somespecific things that I
(18:28):
understand about the Christianfaith that are like love others
as yourself, except everyone,just much, no one, like all of
those kinds of things that don'tline up right.
So I just think it'sinteresting.
Anyway, I'm going to pausethere and get some great
questions.
Nancy (18:46):
Yeah, you know, actually, if I, if I may, I'd like to
share another really interestingstory in it and it and it and
it touches on what you just said, and it and it and it also
speaks to my own evolution as aleader.
So, cut to later, in the 2000s,when I was a co, I'd be, I was
a co founder of the company thatI am the CEO of.
(19:08):
Now We've been around a longtime I think that's the story
you're hearing.
So have I ancient and I hadreally worked hard to make space
for people that had, you know,different opinions and different
belief systems from me, from us, and, and I, and over the years
(19:32):
, at this point I had had somereally interesting conversations
with other folks of faith whowere deeply enmeshed in, you
know, doc, dogma and andreligion and communities of
religion, and and enjoyed thoseconversations.
And I had a young man who hadstarted with us.
(19:54):
I think if he didn't start asan intern, he started as a, as a
very junior level front endengineer, slash designer, and he
and I had become you know, it'sso different from now, because
it was so early in our in ourstory that I had relationships
(20:17):
with everybody and now I don't.
I don't work on the deliveryside of the business, so it's so
different to even think aboutthis and this story is probably
going to stun folks that I workwith too.
And he and I had an opportunityto get to know each other a
little.
We had done some of our one onones and I'm a very approachable
(20:38):
person.
Once you get to know me, peopletell me all the time oh, you
scare me.
It's like cool.
But you know, whatever I can'tdo anything about it.
This I'm big, that's my, that'smy personality, that's what it
is.
But this young man had gottento a place where he felt
comfortable enough to approachme and I always encourage.
I have this open door.
You can direct message meanytime.
(20:59):
We can have any conversationyou want, if there's you know,
if you need counsel or mentoringor you have criticism or
feedback, I'm open, right, andthis fellow.
We were all sort of working on atight deadline.
It was, it was nighttime, wewere all in our homes and this
was when I don't know if we wereusing like IRC.
It was before Slack, it wasbefore Slack days and we were
(21:20):
using some direct messagingapplication.
He messaged me and I opened themessage and he said I you know
what, I don't want to fightabout you, but how do you feel
about the fact that you're goingto help?
And it was like like I'm, I'mthe CEO and he is the newest
hire at the junior risk leveland you know, in any other, in
(21:44):
any other organization, thatwould be problematic.
So I was proud that it wasn'tin my own.
You know that I mean, I'venever.
I can honestly say, regardlessof my personal feelings or my
personal relationships inside ofthe organization there've only
been one or two times where Ihave really given myself grief
for treating somebody unfairly.
(22:05):
But for the most part I reallywork not to treat anybody unfair
or to operate out of takingsomething personally.
I can't say that I don'toperate from emotion.
So he asked me how I felt aboutgoing to hell and I thought
about it a minute and Iremembered I had this mentor who
was also a person of faith andhe and I had had a conversation
(22:28):
and he shared, you know, thislittle bit of wisdom with me
that I then shared with thisyoung man and I said you know, I
said I don't profess to beingcapable of speaking for God.
I sometimes worry about peoplewho are, and I certainly don't
take aspects of the Bibleliterally, because it has been
(22:49):
through so much and so manytranslations and so many
writings and rewritings, andlet's not even start with the
origins and why it was writtenin the first place.
But what I do know is that whenChrist was asked what what God
really wants from us, he reallywants from us, he said simply to
(23:13):
love God and love each other.
And I know that I do that.
I know that I am showing up forthe thing that Christ said God
cares about the most, and when Ithink about God, I may not
think about the same being thatyou do, but God also said we are
made in His image.
(23:35):
So, taking a page from yourscripture, if I love people, if
I truly care for people, I amdoing what your God is asking of
me and I don't feel like thatGod is going to condemn me to
(23:58):
torment, because I do genuinelycare about people and I do work
to help those that are lessfortunate than me or to work to
create spaces where marginalizedpeople can exist freely and
openly.
I do work to be a decentemployer, a decent human.
(24:19):
I'm not a greedy white lady,and he really accepted that.
I think it really threw Him off.
He was hoping to challenge meand I think he didn't know how
to respond to it, and weactually became very close and
are still in touch to this day.
He no longer works with us.
(24:40):
He's now a leader in his ownright In a company.
I actually saw a picture of Himrecently.
He's bald that's how old I am.
I have a young man who hasgrown up and is now bald on my
network, but I was glad to havethat response for him and it's
helped inform how I respond toother people that ask equally as
(25:02):
difficult questions relative totheir Christianity.
Justin (25:08):
Yeah, it's such a great response and it also just makes
me think of the individual whoinitiated that conversation,
like what's the objective?
Is the objective to have anargument or is the objective to
convert you to something?
I love your response and I lovehow that landed.
Nancy (25:35):
Yeah, I mean, he's actually a really lovely guy.
He was so young and soinfluenced by his parents and
his church, and so I don't thinkhe'd gotten to a point where
critical thinking was part ofhis resume, if you will.
(25:56):
I think he's matured and Idoubt that he would ever ask a
CEO of a company that questionagain.
But we have great respect foreach other and he is still a
fine Christian man that I thinkhe's a lovely guy.
But I do think to your questionwas he trying to have a fight?
(26:18):
I actually think he was worriedabout me.
I think that was it.
I think it was such a youwanted to challenge me, but I
think he was worried about me.
He was worried about my soul,and I hope that what I said to
him made him realize that mysoul is not for him to worry
about.
Justin (26:34):
Yeah, yeah.
Nancy (26:36):
This is not where I thought our conversation was
going to go.
By the way, this is fast.
I talked more aboutChristianity today than I have
in the last 10 years.
We're welcome.
Justin (26:45):
So I love it, though I love it because about two months
ago so I'm working on thesecond edition of the book and
I'm thinking about what are thechapters I'm adding, what's the
research I want to add?
And it is not in the outlineyet and I'm not sure I'm
committed to or would put it in.
(27:06):
But I've thought about areligion chapter, creating
belonging and religion, becauseso much exclusion happens in the
name of religion.
And I'm not saying that allreligions are exclusive, but I
am saying exclusion happens inthe name of religion.
(27:27):
And you know, if you look atthe religion that I'm most
familiar with, being inChristianity, I'm like, yeah,
just like you say, like,actually, if we're really
examining it, that's not like weneed to be inclusive, that's
what, right, that's what we'retold.
(27:48):
So, really examining that, butlike I'm just putting it there
that I've entertained it, but itseems like a really deep rabbit
hole.
Nancy (28:01):
Yeah, that would be quite the quagmire, and yet I love
the idea of it.
I do Because I think religionis being weaponized and at its
core, you know, there's nothingwrong with faith.
You know, faith is what hasgotten us through generations of
trauma, you know, for manypeople, not all, and so I think
(28:24):
if we could find a way to findeach other in spite of, and
through and with our faith, Ithink that would be phenomenal.
I mean, think about it rightnow Our government is
weaponizing religion, andreligion is weaponizing our
government against, you know, ahuge faction of the population,
(28:48):
and it's really troubling andunfortunate.
It's unfortunate.
You know I was raised in anIrish Catholic family.
My mother converted frombaptism.
My grandma didn't care that Iwas gay but she was really upset
that my mom went from Baptistto Catholicism.
(29:08):
And at our core we all, youknow I would go to the Baptist
church when I visited mygrandmother.
We all at our core, the message, the values, the ways of being,
you know the expectations, areso similar.
I mean there's much more ritualand money, quite frankly, in
(29:29):
the Catholic church Don't get mestarted, but you know, at its
core my grandmother was a deeplyloving, you know, god-fearing
but generous, caring human being.
And you know my parents weredecent human beings too, or are
decent.
(29:49):
One of them are and were, and Ithink a lot of it came from how
they felt about their faith.
But I couldn't subscribebecause the, you know, the
institution didn't want me andthen I became a more critical
(30:10):
thinker as a result.
Justin (30:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've talked a bit about my evolution
as well, over well, for threeyears in the work, so I'll say
that those times, but I think soto close this out.
Actually, I just want to grabthis like interesting parallel
(30:36):
of because I'm always talkingback to the model that's the
best model and it's sointeresting of like actually, in
what your response to thatemployee was we are made in his
image and so we are acelebration of God, right, and
so if we think aboutauthenticity in showing up as
(30:59):
ourselves and loving ourselvesas being made in his own image
and loving others being ex-ex-ex, that's it.
That's the creating, thelearning model.
Nancy (31:16):
That's everything.
Justin (31:17):
I mean, maybe it all goes back to my roots of like,
my like.
How would you call it?
Oh my gosh, no one can think ofit Like confirmation.
Nancy (31:32):
Oh, confirmation sure.
Justin (31:34):
Yeah.
Nancy (31:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The seeds were planted, yeahlook, the essence of all of it,
the essence of faith, theessence of spirituality, is good
and whole and decent.
It's people who have corruptedand weaponized those things, but
I think what you just said isthe reason I am on this earth.
Justin (31:58):
Yeah, yes, absolutely Me too.
Nancy (32:03):
I love it.
We're gonna have to.
Okay, we're gonna meet inperson.
Justin (32:06):
I know we definitely will meet in person.
Yeah, and I love.
I love where this conversationwent today.
Totally not what I expected onthis Tuesday afternoon, but it's
still amazing.
Nancy, real quick before weclose out.
How can people find you and getin touch with you?
Nancy (32:26):
Oh well, easy.
I have a website.
My personal website for myspeaking in my books is
NancyLionscom.
Super easy, l-y-o-n-s.
You can find my company,clockwork, at Clockworkcom.
You can find Tempo atMadeByTempocom and you can find
me on all the socials at Nylons.
That's because I've been onthere a really long time and my
(32:49):
name is Nancy Lions and AnneLions.
Everybody saw Nylons so I usedit, but now the young people
don't even know what Nylons are,so that's a whole other podcast
.
Justin (32:59):
There's this great Gen X meme that I've seen recently.
That is something like Regretis your first screen names on
the internet.
Absolutely, Absolutely.
Nancy (33:12):
Yes, that's a good one.
I gotta find it.
Justin (33:15):
Oh, great, well, Nancy, thank you so much for the time
today.
I really appreciate it.
And, renelle, stay tuned foranother episode of the Creating
Blowing Podcast.
Thanks, thanks for having me.
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