April 17, 2024 • 30 mins
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Have you ever walked into a room and felt like you didn't quite fit in? Imagine that sensation lingering, day in and day out, in your workplace. Geoffrey Roche from Siemens Healthineers joins us to unearth the complex layers of leadership and its profound effect on nurturing a sense of belonging at work. We traverse the landscape of workforce development with Geoffrey, whose first-generation American roots offer a rich viewpoint on creating inclusive environments. Our candid discussion reveals how traditional command-and-control leadership styles fall short, and why embracing a community-focused approach can lead to a more vibrant, cohesive team. Geoffrey shares compelling personal stories, shedding light on how the absence of belonging can ripple through an organization's culture.
As we further our exploration, the notions of allyship and inclusion come to the forefront—as does the responsibility that accompanies the title of 'ally.' Moving beyond lip service, we focus on actionable steps and the use of privilege to enact real change within our spheres of influence. We also unpack the journey of advocacy, including the missteps and the learning curves that are part and parcel of the process. From Pink's bold act of literary resistance to the challenges of overcoming embedded biases, this episode is a masterclass in fostering an environment where everyone's voice holds weight and every team member can flourish. Join us as we navigate the transformative power of leadership, allyship, and the relentless pursuit of a workplace where everyone truly belongs.
You can find Geoffrey on LinkedIn.
You can order your copy of Creating Belonging on Amazon.
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Episode Transcript
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Justin (00:09):
Welcome to another episode of the Creating
Belonging podcast.
We're getting into the secondseason of the Creating Belonging
podcast and I'm excited to havewith me our guest, Geoffrey
Roche.
Today, and in the usualtradition, I like to have people
introduce themselves in theirown voice and words.
(00:29):
Geoffrey, if you wouldn't mindsharing a little bit, about
yourselves, sure?
Geoffrey (00:33):
Well, wonderful to be here with you, justin, and look
forward to this dialogue andconversation.
Geoffrey M Roche,professionally, I serve as the
director of workforcedevelopment at Siemens Health
and Ears, and I'm afirst-generation American.
My mother was born in Germany,and so I'm actually a dual
citizen, and so that's why yousee behind me my American and
German flag, and then theUkrainian flag as well for our
(00:56):
friends there, and so wonderfulto be here with you.
Let's dig in.
Justin (01:00):
So at the time of the recording of this podcast, I may
or may not have publiclyannounced that I'm currently
working on the second edition ofthe book Creating Belonging,
and so I'm excited for theperspective that Geoffrey brings
to the table today, becausewe're actually going to dig into
a couple of the areas of newchapters that you'll see when
(01:24):
that second edition of the bookcomes out.
And so the first, Geoffrey andI were having a little
conversation before today and Iwanted to dig into your
experience in the past, so kindof broadly speaking, about one
of the chapters.
One of the new chapters isgoing to be creating belonging
and leadership, and so I wantedto dig into experiences that
(01:46):
you've had either as a leader orworking with other leaders, and
how the creating belongingmodel kind of came into play.
Geoffrey (01:55):
Yeah Well, and let me just say, justin, that I applaud
you for not only writing a bookbut covering such an important
topic like belonging andleadership.
I have regularly, in my 15 plusyears of a career, seen so many
different examples where Ihaven't seen a leader truly
espouse creating a sense ofbelonging.
And there are many differentexamples that come to mind, but
(02:18):
in one particular example, Iserved in an organization once
in my career with just aleadership style that didn't
have not only a sense ofbelonging but in many ways, not
even a sense of respect,appreciation or value for others
, and what I saw very quicklywas there.
To me, one of the greatestqualities of a leader is to
(02:42):
develop that sense of belonging.
It's through building arelationship that's art,
centered, authentic, meaningful.
And when I came into theorganization, just like any time
I come into an organization,for me it's so critical to use
the first 90 days to learn asmuch as possible and to meet as
many people as possible.
And as I was doing that, it wasso clear to me that there was
(03:06):
concerns and fear of leaders inthe organization.
And what was interesting aboutit was, as I was sharing more
because I was part of the seniorleadership team.
As I was sharing, moreindividuals were coming more and
more to me.
Help to me, help us navigatethis.
Tell us why you do thisdifferently, why are you such a
(03:27):
good listener, and justdifferent things like that.
And I was like my gosh, like,first of all, clearly, why am I
here?
Like there was a part of me,you know, like I made a mistake
coming here, but then there'salso a part of me.
I know I'm here because I'mhere to help these individuals
and so, as long as I'm here,that's what I'll make a mission
and focus.
And even with my own team, Istarted to recognize that these
(03:48):
were really, you know,significant challenges.
And when I started on packet,it was just clear that there was
sort of a leadership culturethere that was so much an I
versus a we and so much more ofa kind of old school command and
control and so much of what Idon't like about quote unquote
leadership is what I saw in thatexperience.
(04:08):
And there was no sense ofcommunity, there was absolutely
no sense of belonging.
There was just an absolutesense of just just get this done
and do it my way or the highway.
And what's interesting is,despite that, despite a terrible
track record of people, despitea terrible track record of
(04:29):
retention, so many of thoseleaders you know still are there
in their very roles today.
And so it's just interesting,you know, when you unpack those
types of things, you know, whenI look at it, the impact of
people and the impact of theiryou know livelihood, their
mindfulness, you know, et cetera.
It's just really hurting whenyou see that.
Justin (04:51):
I like so.
So a I have worked in my ownhandful of organizations that
have had kind of command andcontrol perspective.
That is definitely not wellsuited for a knowledge economy.
But I caught there were threewords that you said in
succession respect, appreciationand value, which I love that
(05:17):
you know you're talking about.
This was something that waslacking.
So this organization waslacking respect, appreciation
and value, and I think all ofthose things I would lump into
acceptance.
So we talked about in thecreating belonging model that
belonging is created, theintersection of authenticity and
acceptance.
And so if we're lacking onacceptance but we've got that
(05:40):
eye perspective not a weeperspective, likely that
leadership then kind of sittingvery much in a place of
overbearing yeah, curious.
Tell me a little bit more aboutthe leaders, or the leader that
kind of drove, that, thatoverbearing perspective and kind
of what that looked like.
Geoffrey (06:01):
Yeah, you know it was in some ways, when I look back,
there's part of me that almostdoesn't want to look back, right
, because you know, some ofthose experiences just sicken
you to the core.
But some of the examples that Ivividly can remember, and you
know team members of mine wouldregularly say this to me, and
some of them, you know, some ofthem I'm very close to today and
, and you know, at times we'llsee each other at conferences
(06:24):
and things and they'll be likedo you remember this email, do
you remember this?
And some of it was literallylike in emails First of all, no
professional way ofcommunicating at all, very, very
directive.
You know, very, very short.
You know, to the point, just dothis this way.
You know no level of engagement.
And you know I can rememberseeing some of them and
(06:49):
literally thinking to myself didyou even read what you just
wrote?
And you know it's so interestingbecause so many of the team
members that I worked with andeven others that worked with you
know the organization said tome that they got to a point
where they just would not readtheir emails after a certain
(07:10):
period of time because theywould come at all hours and they
just, you know, they just learn, don't even answer it, don't
acknowledge it until the nextday and sometimes don't even
respond.
And you know that speaks to alevel of some level of what
you'd consider disengagement.
Right, some people would viewthat as disengagement.
I didn't.
(07:31):
I viewed that for them as theywere trying to just cope with
what was an absolute atrocity ofan experience.
And you know, no one shouldhave to face that.
Nobody should have to face that.
And you know I hate to say thatbut in many ways to me it's
abused when a leader you know ora leadership team communicates
(07:52):
in that way with individuals.
Justin (07:54):
Yeah, yeah, I can think of an organization that I worked
in, and I think it was also aglobal organization.
I've worked in several globalorganizations, but this global
organization where, you know, Iwould wake up at four in the
morning and some people hadalready started their work day,
and so, depending on you know,whether I was looking at my
email at four in the morning ornot could just set me off in a
(08:16):
mood right, and so there's a bitof, I think, what's interesting
, it's getting me to think aboutin leadership, when we think
about the balance ofauthenticity versus acceptance,
and you know, acceptance beingthose things that you mentioned
before of respect, appreciation,appreciation, value, and I
(08:37):
think then I'm thinking theother word that I'm thinking to
bring in there is context Likewhat's the demand that the
audience that you'recommunicating with?
Yeah, so that you know I, when Iwere, I, would join a new team.
You know, sometimes some peoplework late and I never want to
like discourage someone fromworking when they're in a place
of genius, but I definitelywould also, you know, put a
(09:00):
caveat on any communication thatI sent after hours to be I do
not expect a response ever likeoutside of out of normal
business hours and setting thatas an expectation so that people
know like, hey, I'm workingright now because it's what's
good for me, but I also don'texpect it of you, right, and
very few people take that kindof you know perspective to give
(09:27):
that permission to others that,hey, I'm working right now but
doesn't mean that you have to be.
Geoffrey (09:34):
There are some other examples of that overbearing
leadership that you can think of, that that surpassed Um you
know, I can remember some, likeeven leadership team meetings,
where you know they would startout and the desire was to,
basically like, give updates andask for feedback, but as soon
(09:55):
as feedback would be receivedthat it wasn't, you know
necessarily what they wanted tohear, they would just, they
would just shut it down.
Well, I have a lot and you know, and so I think,
organizationally, what peopleliterally learned is is just to
keep your head down and try anddo what you can, because it
really didn't matter what youcould unless, unless you know,
(10:15):
you were doing it 100% tohowever this individual thought
it should be done.
Okay, I would say I can.
I'll never forget a time wherecolleagues were actually
presenting and this was a remoteenvironment presenting and
literally, you know, a leaderliterally said that's just a
(10:37):
dumb idea.
Wow, you know, and this wasstated to members of my team and
I immediately, immediately,left the camera.
I had to go off because I wasjust so mortified to be part of
an organization where anybodywould treat another person that
(11:01):
way and you know, for me it wasone of those moments where I
would go back and I wouldreflect on.
You know, I had I started mycareer in hospital
administration and noorganization, as you know, is
perfect, but I worked with someof the best inclusive leaders.
There's so many of the bestinclusive leaders there that I
(11:21):
ever experienced in my in mycareer.
And one of the things that I canremember of of one of the
leaders that he always said tome and this always resonates
with me is he said you giveeverybody a chance to share
their value, don't judge, letthem have it.
And it was always a moment whenhe said that to me as a young
(11:46):
leader that resonated andliterally my almost 10 years of
working with this senior vicepresident, I could tell you that
even in some of the mostdifficult meetings, interactions
that he was in, he would giveeverybody a chance to share
their value and literally, ifthey weren't speaking, he would
(12:09):
just ask him do you haveanything you want to add?
And if they said no, he wasfine with that, but everyone
would have a chance.
And I thought to myself oh,like that was early on my career
and this is later and this iswhat I'm seeing.
And that was one of thosemoments where I definitely
(12:30):
reached out to them andapologized to them.
But I also realized at thatmoment there's nothing that I
could do to fix this at thispoint, because I'm just not in a
position of really influence orimpact or authority to do it
anymore.
At that moment it was toughbecause for me I'm not one to
(12:50):
ever shy away from what I thinkis my responsibility, but at the
same time, when the person isthe boss, they're the boss.
Unfortunately in thecircumstances, yeah, yeah.
Justin (13:04):
It makes me think of someone posted something
recently about the term toxicleadership being an oxymoron,
because if someone's toxic,they're not being a leader.
But yes, so, and I love whatyou're adding there about you
know, the positive example ofthis leader that said everyone
(13:26):
can add some value and how theywanted to, you know, kind of go
around and make sure thateveryone had a turn to
contribute, and that's one ofthe things that you know.
There are often comparisons tothe creating belonging work and
then psychological safety, andwasn't over there, but
definitely, when we talk aboutpsychological safety, one of the
(13:46):
, you know, strategies that'sused and that came up in all the
Google research and productAristotle was that people get
equal opportunity to have theirvoice heard, and so I think
that's really important as aleader is making sure that
everyone gets equal opportunityto share their value.
So I love that.
(14:07):
Thank you Absolutely.
I'm going to shift gears alittle bit.
There's another new chapter.
We're going to hit all newstuff today, another new chapter
that I'm looking at writing.
That was a very recent additionand I'm excited to dig into
some of the research there, soit's very conceptual at this
point, but I know that you havea passion for allyship, and so
(14:33):
the context or the subject isreally creating belonging and
allyship and the role ofallyship and creating belonging,
and I've got many thoughts ofwhere this could go.
But I'm curious you know, whenwe talk about allyship and
creating belonging, you know howyou see your role in allyship?
Geoffrey (14:52):
Yeah.
So you know, it's a really,really important aspect to your
point around around all aspects,frankly, of diversity, equity,
inclusion and belonging.
In my view, is the importantrole of an ally.
And I think what's importantthough as I've always learned in
allyship is is you can't, youcan't, just say you're an ally
(15:14):
In some ways.
You've got to also, at times,be welcomed in to be an ally,
and then you've also got todemonstrate that walk as an ally
consistently and passionately.
And a number of years ago I was,I was talking with a mentor of
mine, and you know somebody whodoes this work at a very high
(15:35):
level in healthcare, and shesaid to me you know, you've got
to, you've got to use your voice.
And I was like, okay, well,that's great, I know, I have it.
And she said no, no, no, you'vegot to use your voice to get
other people to the table andyou've got to lift it up for
them, because they don't alwayshave the opportunities that you
have.
And I remember, like I wassitting there and I was thinking
(15:56):
and this was on a zoomconversation I'm like looking at
her, like okay, where's thisgoing?
And and she looked at me andshe said Listen, I'm Latina, you
are white.
You better use that whiteprivilege.
You have to make sure I have aseat at the table, and I
remember sitting at that momentlike whoa, like okay, and then I
(16:20):
sat back and I thought she'sonto something, like I've been
doing this work, but I've got toreally make sure that I'm
leaning in.
And so, to your point, sincethat time, I really started to
be more aware, specifically, ofsituations and experiences where
(16:41):
individuals may be facingcultures or situations or
environments where they're notgetting heard, they're not
getting valued, they're notgetting appreciated and and and,
in very many ways, it's basedon their culture, is based on
their ethnicity, it's based onhow they identify.
And so, you know, for me, allof that is just absolutely crazy
(17:05):
to think that in 2023, that isstill the case.
And so I have really juststarted in, started to really
leverage, not just engaging asan ally, but using my voice to
ask questions of those in thosetypes of situations to
understand like, well, you cansay you're, for you know,
(17:25):
inclusive practice, but but doyou understand what you're doing
by doing that?
And an experience that comes tomind is I had served in an
organization once where you know, was in a higher education
setting and you know,interestingly enough, there was
actually more females in theworkforce there than males.
(17:47):
But the leadership of theorganization was much more male
dominated and, you know, veryold school male dominated, to be
honest.
And what I would notice was,you know, you could just tell
there were so many individualswho, clearly, we're some of the
brightest, most capable, best intheir class from an expertise
(18:14):
level, but literally felt theirvoice wasn't heard, there was
nothing they could contribute.
And you know, I happen to bepart of the leadership team and
I can remember sitting down witha colleague once and she
literally said to me I'm alreadywith a PhD from a very, very
good school.
(18:34):
And she said to me it's reallyinteresting that you can be
heard much more quickly than Ican.
And it was one of those momentswhere I was like wait, wait, we
need to unpack this.
And as we unpacked it, you know, we got talking and this is
somebody I'm very, very closewith today, a phenomenal
(18:55):
professional, an amazing leader,but somebody who clearly this
organization was just holdingback, this organization was
stymie, being any chance ofprogression or grace, and I
never really could understand itother than it was.
You know we're going to justcontinue our status quo of this
(19:20):
group being in the lead and noone else is going to get to that
table.
And even when there is, youknow different, you know gender
diversity on the leadership, youknow leadership team.
It was clear who were making thedecisions.
It was clear who was in theroom when decisions were made.
It was clear who was listenedto and who wasn't.
And it was clear who was felt.
(19:43):
You know who felt like theywere being held back and not
advanced.
And you know, I started torealize, like here's a moment of
allyship either.
You know, yes, is it risky forme to step forward and ask
questions?
Sure, but at the end of the day, if I'm not willing to step up
(20:04):
and stand in for those who can'teven get heard, what am I good
for?
And so I started to just askquestions, started to, you know,
just put forward things likehey, what about this person for
this group?
Why not put this person on thiscommittee?
Why not ask them to serve?
Why is this person a chair?
But this person is in a chair,why are there only male leaders
(20:26):
in this area?
And you know, I could tellwasn't welcome, you know, and I
started to get more ostracizedand pushed out of things.
And, you know, and I started torealize, like you know, for me,
unfortunately, this isn't goingto be a long-term, long-term
place, because that is not aculture that I want to be a part
of.
But but there was an importantlesson, you know, for me in that
(20:49):
, and that was as an ally,you've got to be willing to
speak up for those who need youto, and sometimes for those who
may not even think they need youto, and you also have to be
willing to, to put yourself onthe line in those situations,
(21:12):
because so many people have doneso much in this quest for
belonging for so long.
You know, and I thought you know, as a college student I was
privileged to hear CongressmanJohn Lewis speak and to have met
Congressman Lewis, and I'llnever forget when I was in
(21:33):
college, congressman Lewis saidto a group of us students just
remember that I was beatenalmost to death to fight for
civil rights, and I'll neverforget.
He looked at all of us and saidwhat will you fight for one day
and how will you be selfless indoing so?
And I'm not in any way, in anyway, comparing this example to
(21:59):
that, but what I am comparing isthe importance that we look out
for others and be willing toput forward our voice for
another, for others or anotherin those circumstances, because
what was clear to me in that wasthat the individuals who were
(22:21):
not being heard at least feltlike they had somebody who would
hear them.
Yeah, thank you.
Justin (22:28):
That's really thank you for sharing that.
It's such a great experience topull from and it's I love that
you've had people who havecalled you and have called you
onto the carpet to say, hey,this is something you value, so
it's time to put your actionsinto play.
But I wanted to come back to acouple of funds.
(22:49):
That's number one is just thisidea that Allied ship is not.
It's not a permanent label,Like you don't just get to be an
ally and it's a badge thatyou've earned and then you keep
that badge forever.
You know, an ally, an ally ship, is work, that you have to
renew that badge every singleday.
You have to bring something tohelp move people forward.
(23:13):
And there's also this concept ofbeing welcomed in, and I want
to dig into that a little bitbecause you had mentioned
there's.
There's a really carefulbalance in something you said of
kind of speaking up for peopleand working towards their, for
their voice, even if they don'trealize it.
But there's a balance there,right Of like we can't speak on
(23:36):
behalf of other people, but wedo need to make sure that we're
elevating over their voices andthat kind of coming in with that
being welcomed in.
I'm curious if you could tellme a little bit more of how you
strike that ballot.
Geoffrey (23:47):
Yeah, you know to your point, it is an everyday
learning and development process, and it also really critical,
particularly when you becausethere's a difference between and
you know, and I often have saidpeople really have to
understand this there's a bigdifference between being an
advocate and being an ally.
And it is not easy to be anally Because, to your exact
(24:12):
point, you have to be willingand able to take feedback too,
because you can't I don't livethat life, I don't know what
it's like to walk that.
What I know is that if I'mwelcomed into that allyship, I'm
expected to speak up and I'mexpected to contribute as a
(24:34):
vital, active voice in the workto create a better sense of
belonging or a more inclusiveculture, and so I have to be
absolutely committed.
But I also have to be willingand able to accept feedback,
because there are times thatmaybe I'm not walking the walk
that I have been invited into,maybe I'm contributing in the
(24:58):
way that I was expected to, andso I have to be willing to take
that honest feedback, and thatmay mean that I'm no longer
invited or welcomed in as anally, because it may mean that
I've walked too far a line.
And so to me, it is an absoluteeveryday process and I think to
your point.
What's so critical in that Ialways think about is it's
(25:25):
almost like when you describe itit is both a privilege but an
enormous amount ofresponsibility.
And particularly when you'reinvited in as an ally, you have
to be willing to experienceaspect that are going to be very
(25:46):
new for you and be willing toask a lot of questions that
you're in a position to reallyunderstand.
If you hear something orexperience something or see
something that you're going tobe the absolute first to say
excuse me, did you just reallysay what you said?
Because I'm not so sure thatwould be an appropriate way to
(26:11):
say it.
And at the same time, you haveto be careful because you can't
go too far, because so manypeople who desire to have allies
could be extremely vulnerablebecause of what we have done in
(26:33):
our society to them and,unfortunately, sometimes with
them, and so you have to bereally, really careful and
thoughtful around that, which iswhy I always say, particularly
in leadership, we have kind ofmake it or break it moments for
people.
We can either help them to kindof make it to the next step or
(26:55):
we can literally be the onesthat break it for them.
And I've always felt the sameis so true in allyship, and I'll
say that it always has been,and it continues to be, a
learning and developmentopportunity for me.
And I think of some of the mostultimate allies that are very
public, and I think of peoplelike Pink.
I personally love Pink, I'vebeen to many Pink concerts, but
(27:17):
I look at what Pink did recentlyin the state of Florida and
that's a very, very vocal publicallyship demonstration to say,
hey, you want to ban books?
Well, I'm going to give you allthose ban books right back and I
want you to take them into theschool districts, because not
only are you banning books, butyou're banning the very
identities of the authors andthe very identity of the people
(27:37):
who are referenced in thosebooks, and that is not okay.
And so you know I look atsomeone like that, because every
Pink concert I've been to, whatI see preached is a sense of
inclusion and what I seepreached is a sense of community
, and so you know that elementis really, really important.
But I'll also say there aretimes where even Pink herself
(27:58):
will make a mistake, and youknow what People will say take a
step back and you got to learnfrom that.
And so it's that element of notjust emotional intelligence,
but that we've got a level setwith ourselves too, that we're
humans too and we have to learn,you know, from every experience
.
Justin (28:16):
Yeah, yeah, I think we have to approach it with that
learning mindset and bravery,because it takes bravery to get
out there.
I'm just a lot of.
This conversation is making methink about a workshop I did a
little while back, had aconversation with one of the
participants who, and it wasasked to the program and had a
(28:37):
conversation with them and theyhadn't spoken up at all at all,
like not a peep came out oftheir mouth and you know we
talked about it and they justthey shared like look, I'm a
white male and I'm probablygoing to say something wrong,
and so it's easier if I justdon't speak up.
And the more we dug into it, itwas around you know the Ansel
(29:02):
culture that we have, like yousay the one wrong thing and then
you're done, no more, which Idon't.
I don't believe in it.
We have to give people anopportunity to learn and move
forward, and so that takes somebravery and an acceptance that
you know I am going to screw upand then I'm going to learn from
it and move forward.
(29:22):
And then the last thought thatI have around kind of I love the
pink example in the books, Ilove that story of what she did
there, and we don't all have theresources to be able to give
out 2000 books to the concert,but we do have some influence
over someone that we can can bean ally, and so we just have to
(29:45):
keep doing the work and showingup.
Absolutely yeah, Geoffrey,thank you so much for taking
some time to chat with me today.
I'm excited to have yourstories a part of this work, and
I'm also excited that we got todig into some of the new topics
that I'll be exploring in thesecond edition of Creating
(30:05):
Belonging.
So thank you so much, Geoffrey.
Geoffrey (30:08):
You're so welcome.
Thank you for having me.
Justin (30:11):
And thank you all, stay tuned for another episode of the
Creating Belonging podcast.
Welcome to another episode of the Creating
Belonging podcast.
We're getting into the secondseason of the Creating Belonging
podcast and I'm excited to havewith me our guest, Geoffrey
Roche.
Today, and in the usualtradition, I like to have people
introduce themselves in theirown voice and words.
(00:29):
Geoffrey, if you wouldn't mindsharing a little bit, about
yourselves, sure?
Geoffrey (00:33):
Well, wonderful to be here with you, justin, and look
forward to this dialogue andconversation.
Geoffrey M Roche,professionally, I serve as the
director of workforcedevelopment at Siemens Health
and Ears, and I'm afirst-generation American.
My mother was born in Germany,and so I'm actually a dual
citizen, and so that's why yousee behind me my American and
German flag, and then theUkrainian flag as well for our
(00:56):
friends there, and so wonderfulto be here with you.
Let's dig in.
Justin (01:00):
So at the time of the recording of this podcast, I may
or may not have publiclyannounced that I'm currently
working on the second edition ofthe book Creating Belonging,
and so I'm excited for theperspective that Geoffrey brings
to the table today, becausewe're actually going to dig into
a couple of the areas of newchapters that you'll see when
(01:24):
that second edition of the bookcomes out.
And so the first, Geoffrey andI were having a little
conversation before today and Iwanted to dig into your
experience in the past, so kindof broadly speaking, about one
of the chapters.
One of the new chapters isgoing to be creating belonging
and leadership, and so I wantedto dig into experiences that
(01:46):
you've had either as a leader orworking with other leaders, and
how the creating belongingmodel kind of came into play.
Geoffrey (01:55):
Yeah Well, and let me just say, justin, that I applaud
you for not only writing a bookbut covering such an important
topic like belonging andleadership.
I have regularly, in my 15 plusyears of a career, seen so many
different examples where Ihaven't seen a leader truly
espouse creating a sense ofbelonging.
And there are many differentexamples that come to mind, but
(02:18):
in one particular example, Iserved in an organization once
in my career with just aleadership style that didn't
have not only a sense ofbelonging but in many ways, not
even a sense of respect,appreciation or value for others
, and what I saw very quicklywas there.
To me, one of the greatestqualities of a leader is to
(02:42):
develop that sense of belonging.
It's through building arelationship that's art,
centered, authentic, meaningful.
And when I came into theorganization, just like any time
I come into an organization,for me it's so critical to use
the first 90 days to learn asmuch as possible and to meet as
many people as possible.
And as I was doing that, it wasso clear to me that there was
(03:06):
concerns and fear of leaders inthe organization.
And what was interesting aboutit was, as I was sharing more
because I was part of the seniorleadership team.
As I was sharing, moreindividuals were coming more and
more to me.
Help to me, help us navigatethis.
Tell us why you do thisdifferently, why are you such a
(03:27):
good listener, and justdifferent things like that.
And I was like my gosh, like,first of all, clearly, why am I
here?
Like there was a part of me,you know, like I made a mistake
coming here, but then there'salso a part of me.
I know I'm here because I'mhere to help these individuals
and so, as long as I'm here,that's what I'll make a mission
and focus.
And even with my own team, Istarted to recognize that these
(03:48):
were really, you know,significant challenges.
And when I started on packet,it was just clear that there was
sort of a leadership culturethere that was so much an I
versus a we and so much more ofa kind of old school command and
control and so much of what Idon't like about quote unquote
leadership is what I saw in thatexperience.
(04:08):
And there was no sense ofcommunity, there was absolutely
no sense of belonging.
There was just an absolutesense of just just get this done
and do it my way or the highway.
And what's interesting is,despite that, despite a terrible
track record of people, despitea terrible track record of
(04:29):
retention, so many of thoseleaders you know still are there
in their very roles today.
And so it's just interesting,you know, when you unpack those
types of things, you know, whenI look at it, the impact of
people and the impact of theiryou know livelihood, their
mindfulness, you know, et cetera.
It's just really hurting whenyou see that.
Justin (04:51):
I like so.
So a I have worked in my ownhandful of organizations that
have had kind of command andcontrol perspective.
That is definitely not wellsuited for a knowledge economy.
But I caught there were threewords that you said in
succession respect, appreciationand value, which I love that
(05:17):
you know you're talking about.
This was something that waslacking.
So this organization waslacking respect, appreciation
and value, and I think all ofthose things I would lump into
acceptance.
So we talked about in thecreating belonging model that
belonging is created, theintersection of authenticity and
acceptance.
And so if we're lacking onacceptance but we've got that
(05:40):
eye perspective not a weeperspective, likely that
leadership then kind of sittingvery much in a place of
overbearing yeah, curious.
Tell me a little bit more aboutthe leaders, or the leader that
kind of drove, that, thatoverbearing perspective and kind
of what that looked like.
Geoffrey (06:01):
Yeah, you know it was in some ways, when I look back,
there's part of me that almostdoesn't want to look back, right
, because you know, some ofthose experiences just sicken
you to the core.
But some of the examples that Ivividly can remember, and you
know team members of mine wouldregularly say this to me, and
some of them, you know, some ofthem I'm very close to today and
, and you know, at times we'llsee each other at conferences
(06:24):
and things and they'll be likedo you remember this email, do
you remember this?
And some of it was literallylike in emails First of all, no
professional way ofcommunicating at all, very, very
directive.
You know, very, very short.
You know, to the point, just dothis this way.
You know no level of engagement.
And you know I can rememberseeing some of them and
(06:49):
literally thinking to myself didyou even read what you just
wrote?
And you know it's so interestingbecause so many of the team
members that I worked with andeven others that worked with you
know the organization said tome that they got to a point
where they just would not readtheir emails after a certain
(07:10):
period of time because theywould come at all hours and they
just, you know, they just learn, don't even answer it, don't
acknowledge it until the nextday and sometimes don't even
respond.
And you know that speaks to alevel of some level of what
you'd consider disengagement.
Right, some people would viewthat as disengagement.
I didn't.
(07:31):
I viewed that for them as theywere trying to just cope with
what was an absolute atrocity ofan experience.
And you know, no one shouldhave to face that.
Nobody should have to face that.
And you know I hate to say thatbut in many ways to me it's
abused when a leader you know ora leadership team communicates
(07:52):
in that way with individuals.
Justin (07:54):
Yeah, yeah, I can think of an organization that I worked
in, and I think it was also aglobal organization.
I've worked in several globalorganizations, but this global
organization where, you know, Iwould wake up at four in the
morning and some people hadalready started their work day,
and so, depending on you know,whether I was looking at my
email at four in the morning ornot could just set me off in a
(08:16):
mood right, and so there's a bitof, I think, what's interesting
, it's getting me to think aboutin leadership, when we think
about the balance ofauthenticity versus acceptance,
and you know, acceptance beingthose things that you mentioned
before of respect, appreciation,appreciation, value, and I
(08:37):
think then I'm thinking theother word that I'm thinking to
bring in there is context Likewhat's the demand that the
audience that you'recommunicating with?
Yeah, so that you know I, when Iwere, I, would join a new team.
You know, sometimes some peoplework late and I never want to
like discourage someone fromworking when they're in a place
of genius, but I definitelywould also, you know, put a
(09:00):
caveat on any communication thatI sent after hours to be I do
not expect a response ever likeoutside of out of normal
business hours and setting thatas an expectation so that people
know like, hey, I'm workingright now because it's what's
good for me, but I also don'texpect it of you, right, and
very few people take that kindof you know perspective to give
(09:27):
that permission to others that,hey, I'm working right now but
doesn't mean that you have to be.
Geoffrey (09:34):
There are some other examples of that overbearing
leadership that you can think of, that that surpassed Um you
know, I can remember some, likeeven leadership team meetings,
where you know they would startout and the desire was to,
basically like, give updates andask for feedback, but as soon
(09:55):
as feedback would be receivedthat it wasn't, you know
necessarily what they wanted tohear, they would just, they
would just shut it down.
Well, I have a lot and you know, and so I think,
organizationally, what peopleliterally learned is is just to
keep your head down and try anddo what you can, because it
really didn't matter what youcould unless, unless you know,
(10:15):
you were doing it 100% tohowever this individual thought
it should be done.
Okay, I would say I can.
I'll never forget a time wherecolleagues were actually
presenting and this was a remoteenvironment presenting and
literally, you know, a leaderliterally said that's just a
(10:37):
dumb idea.
Wow, you know, and this wasstated to members of my team and
I immediately, immediately,left the camera.
I had to go off because I wasjust so mortified to be part of
an organization where anybodywould treat another person that
(11:01):
way and you know, for me it wasone of those moments where I
would go back and I wouldreflect on.
You know, I had I started mycareer in hospital
administration and noorganization, as you know, is
perfect, but I worked with someof the best inclusive leaders.
There's so many of the bestinclusive leaders there that I
(11:21):
ever experienced in my in mycareer.
And one of the things that I canremember of of one of the
leaders that he always said tome and this always resonates
with me is he said you giveeverybody a chance to share
their value, don't judge, letthem have it.
And it was always a moment whenhe said that to me as a young
(11:46):
leader that resonated andliterally my almost 10 years of
working with this senior vicepresident, I could tell you that
even in some of the mostdifficult meetings, interactions
that he was in, he would giveeverybody a chance to share
their value and literally, ifthey weren't speaking, he would
(12:09):
just ask him do you haveanything you want to add?
And if they said no, he wasfine with that, but everyone
would have a chance.
And I thought to myself oh,like that was early on my career
and this is later and this iswhat I'm seeing.
And that was one of thosemoments where I definitely
(12:30):
reached out to them andapologized to them.
But I also realized at thatmoment there's nothing that I
could do to fix this at thispoint, because I'm just not in a
position of really influence orimpact or authority to do it
anymore.
At that moment it was toughbecause for me I'm not one to
(12:50):
ever shy away from what I thinkis my responsibility, but at the
same time, when the person isthe boss, they're the boss.
Unfortunately in thecircumstances, yeah, yeah.
Justin (13:04):
It makes me think of someone posted something
recently about the term toxicleadership being an oxymoron,
because if someone's toxic,they're not being a leader.
But yes, so, and I love whatyou're adding there about you
know, the positive example ofthis leader that said everyone
(13:26):
can add some value and how theywanted to, you know, kind of go
around and make sure thateveryone had a turn to
contribute, and that's one ofthe things that you know.
There are often comparisons tothe creating belonging work and
then psychological safety, andwasn't over there, but
definitely, when we talk aboutpsychological safety, one of the
(13:46):
, you know, strategies that'sused and that came up in all the
Google research and productAristotle was that people get
equal opportunity to have theirvoice heard, and so I think
that's really important as aleader is making sure that
everyone gets equal opportunityto share their value.
So I love that.
(14:07):
Thank you Absolutely.
I'm going to shift gears alittle bit.
There's another new chapter.
We're going to hit all newstuff today, another new chapter
that I'm looking at writing.
That was a very recent additionand I'm excited to dig into
some of the research there, soit's very conceptual at this
point, but I know that you havea passion for allyship, and so
(14:33):
the context or the subject isreally creating belonging and
allyship and the role ofallyship and creating belonging,
and I've got many thoughts ofwhere this could go.
But I'm curious you know, whenwe talk about allyship and
creating belonging, you know howyou see your role in allyship?
Geoffrey (14:52):
Yeah.
So you know, it's a really,really important aspect to your
point around around all aspects,frankly, of diversity, equity,
inclusion and belonging.
In my view, is the importantrole of an ally.
And I think what's importantthough as I've always learned in
allyship is is you can't, youcan't, just say you're an ally
(15:14):
In some ways.
You've got to also, at times,be welcomed in to be an ally,
and then you've also got todemonstrate that walk as an ally
consistently and passionately.
And a number of years ago I was,I was talking with a mentor of
mine, and you know somebody whodoes this work at a very high
(15:35):
level in healthcare, and shesaid to me you know, you've got
to, you've got to use your voice.
And I was like, okay, well,that's great, I know, I have it.
And she said no, no, no, you'vegot to use your voice to get
other people to the table andyou've got to lift it up for
them, because they don't alwayshave the opportunities that you
have.
And I remember, like I wassitting there and I was thinking
(15:56):
and this was on a zoomconversation I'm like looking at
her, like okay, where's thisgoing?
And and she looked at me andshe said Listen, I'm Latina, you
are white.
You better use that whiteprivilege.
You have to make sure I have aseat at the table, and I
remember sitting at that momentlike whoa, like okay, and then I
(16:20):
sat back and I thought she'sonto something, like I've been
doing this work, but I've got toreally make sure that I'm
leaning in.
And so, to your point, sincethat time, I really started to
be more aware, specifically, ofsituations and experiences where
(16:41):
individuals may be facingcultures or situations or
environments where they're notgetting heard, they're not
getting valued, they're notgetting appreciated and and and,
in very many ways, it's basedon their culture, is based on
their ethnicity, it's based onhow they identify.
And so, you know, for me, allof that is just absolutely crazy
(17:05):
to think that in 2023, that isstill the case.
And so I have really juststarted in, started to really
leverage, not just engaging asan ally, but using my voice to
ask questions of those in thosetypes of situations to
understand like, well, you cansay you're, for you know,
(17:25):
inclusive practice, but but doyou understand what you're doing
by doing that?
And an experience that comes tomind is I had served in an
organization once where you know, was in a higher education
setting and you know,interestingly enough, there was
actually more females in theworkforce there than males.
(17:47):
But the leadership of theorganization was much more male
dominated and, you know, veryold school male dominated, to be
honest.
And what I would notice was,you know, you could just tell
there were so many individualswho, clearly, we're some of the
brightest, most capable, best intheir class from an expertise
(18:14):
level, but literally felt theirvoice wasn't heard, there was
nothing they could contribute.
And you know, I happen to bepart of the leadership team and
I can remember sitting down witha colleague once and she
literally said to me I'm alreadywith a PhD from a very, very
good school.
(18:34):
And she said to me it's reallyinteresting that you can be
heard much more quickly than Ican.
And it was one of those momentswhere I was like wait, wait, we
need to unpack this.
And as we unpacked it, you know, we got talking and this is
somebody I'm very, very closewith today, a phenomenal
(18:55):
professional, an amazing leader,but somebody who clearly this
organization was just holdingback, this organization was
stymie, being any chance ofprogression or grace, and I
never really could understand itother than it was.
You know we're going to justcontinue our status quo of this
(19:20):
group being in the lead and noone else is going to get to that
table.
And even when there is, youknow different, you know gender
diversity on the leadership, youknow leadership team.
It was clear who were making thedecisions.
It was clear who was in theroom when decisions were made.
It was clear who was listenedto and who wasn't.
And it was clear who was felt.
(19:43):
You know who felt like theywere being held back and not
advanced.
And you know, I started torealize, like here's a moment of
allyship either.
You know, yes, is it risky forme to step forward and ask
questions?
Sure, but at the end of the day, if I'm not willing to step up
(20:04):
and stand in for those who can'teven get heard, what am I good
for?
And so I started to just askquestions, started to, you know,
just put forward things likehey, what about this person for
this group?
Why not put this person on thiscommittee?
Why not ask them to serve?
Why is this person a chair?
But this person is in a chair,why are there only male leaders
(20:26):
in this area?
And you know, I could tellwasn't welcome, you know, and I
started to get more ostracizedand pushed out of things.
And, you know, and I started torealize, like you know, for me,
unfortunately, this isn't goingto be a long-term, long-term
place, because that is not aculture that I want to be a part
of.
But but there was an importantlesson, you know, for me in that
(20:49):
, and that was as an ally,you've got to be willing to
speak up for those who need youto, and sometimes for those who
may not even think they need youto, and you also have to be
willing to, to put yourself onthe line in those situations,
(21:12):
because so many people have doneso much in this quest for
belonging for so long.
You know, and I thought you know, as a college student I was
privileged to hear CongressmanJohn Lewis speak and to have met
Congressman Lewis, and I'llnever forget when I was in
(21:33):
college, congressman Lewis saidto a group of us students just
remember that I was beatenalmost to death to fight for
civil rights, and I'll neverforget.
He looked at all of us and saidwhat will you fight for one day
and how will you be selfless indoing so?
And I'm not in any way, in anyway, comparing this example to
(21:59):
that, but what I am comparing isthe importance that we look out
for others and be willing toput forward our voice for
another, for others or anotherin those circumstances, because
what was clear to me in that wasthat the individuals who were
(22:21):
not being heard at least feltlike they had somebody who would
hear them.
Yeah, thank you.
Justin (22:28):
That's really thank you for sharing that.
It's such a great experience topull from and it's I love that
you've had people who havecalled you and have called you
onto the carpet to say, hey,this is something you value, so
it's time to put your actionsinto play.
But I wanted to come back to acouple of funds.
(22:49):
That's number one is just thisidea that Allied ship is not.
It's not a permanent label,Like you don't just get to be an
ally and it's a badge thatyou've earned and then you keep
that badge forever.
You know, an ally, an ally ship, is work, that you have to
renew that badge every singleday.
You have to bring something tohelp move people forward.
(23:13):
And there's also this concept ofbeing welcomed in, and I want
to dig into that a little bitbecause you had mentioned
there's.
There's a really carefulbalance in something you said of
kind of speaking up for peopleand working towards their, for
their voice, even if they don'trealize it.
But there's a balance there,right Of like we can't speak on
(23:36):
behalf of other people, but wedo need to make sure that we're
elevating over their voices andthat kind of coming in with that
being welcomed in.
I'm curious if you could tellme a little bit more of how you
strike that ballot.
Geoffrey (23:47):
Yeah, you know to your point, it is an everyday
learning and development process, and it also really critical,
particularly when you becausethere's a difference between and
you know, and I often have saidpeople really have to
understand this there's a bigdifference between being an
advocate and being an ally.
And it is not easy to be anally Because, to your exact
(24:12):
point, you have to be willingand able to take feedback too,
because you can't I don't livethat life, I don't know what
it's like to walk that.
What I know is that if I'mwelcomed into that allyship, I'm
expected to speak up and I'mexpected to contribute as a
(24:34):
vital, active voice in the workto create a better sense of
belonging or a more inclusiveculture, and so I have to be
absolutely committed.
But I also have to be willingand able to accept feedback,
because there are times thatmaybe I'm not walking the walk
that I have been invited into,maybe I'm contributing in the
(24:58):
way that I was expected to, andso I have to be willing to take
that honest feedback, and thatmay mean that I'm no longer
invited or welcomed in as anally, because it may mean that
I've walked too far a line.
And so to me, it is an absoluteeveryday process and I think to
your point.
What's so critical in that Ialways think about is it's
(25:25):
almost like when you describe itit is both a privilege but an
enormous amount ofresponsibility.
And particularly when you'reinvited in as an ally, you have
to be willing to experienceaspect that are going to be very
(25:46):
new for you and be willing toask a lot of questions that
you're in a position to reallyunderstand.
If you hear something orexperience something or see
something that you're going tobe the absolute first to say
excuse me, did you just reallysay what you said?
Because I'm not so sure thatwould be an appropriate way to
(26:11):
say it.
And at the same time, you haveto be careful because you can't
go too far, because so manypeople who desire to have allies
could be extremely vulnerablebecause of what we have done in
(26:33):
our society to them and,unfortunately, sometimes with
them, and so you have to bereally, really careful and
thoughtful around that, which iswhy I always say, particularly
in leadership, we have kind ofmake it or break it moments for
people.
We can either help them to kindof make it to the next step or
(26:55):
we can literally be the onesthat break it for them.
And I've always felt the sameis so true in allyship, and I'll
say that it always has been,and it continues to be, a
learning and developmentopportunity for me.
And I think of some of the mostultimate allies that are very
public, and I think of peoplelike Pink.
I personally love Pink, I'vebeen to many Pink concerts, but
(27:17):
I look at what Pink did recentlyin the state of Florida and
that's a very, very vocal publicallyship demonstration to say,
hey, you want to ban books?
Well, I'm going to give you allthose ban books right back and I
want you to take them into theschool districts, because not
only are you banning books, butyou're banning the very
identities of the authors andthe very identity of the people
(27:37):
who are referenced in thosebooks, and that is not okay.
And so you know I look atsomeone like that, because every
Pink concert I've been to, whatI see preached is a sense of
inclusion and what I seepreached is a sense of community
, and so you know that elementis really, really important.
But I'll also say there aretimes where even Pink herself
(27:58):
will make a mistake, and youknow what People will say take a
step back and you got to learnfrom that.
And so it's that element of notjust emotional intelligence,
but that we've got a level setwith ourselves too, that we're
humans too and we have to learn,you know, from every experience
.
Justin (28:16):
Yeah, yeah, I think we have to approach it with that
learning mindset and bravery,because it takes bravery to get
out there.
I'm just a lot of.
This conversation is making methink about a workshop I did a
little while back, had aconversation with one of the
participants who, and it wasasked to the program and had a
(28:37):
conversation with them and theyhadn't spoken up at all at all,
like not a peep came out oftheir mouth and you know we
talked about it and they justthey shared like look, I'm a
white male and I'm probablygoing to say something wrong,
and so it's easier if I justdon't speak up.
And the more we dug into it, itwas around you know the Ansel
(29:02):
culture that we have, like yousay the one wrong thing and then
you're done, no more, which Idon't.
I don't believe in it.
We have to give people anopportunity to learn and move
forward, and so that takes somebravery and an acceptance that
you know I am going to screw upand then I'm going to learn from
it and move forward.
(29:22):
And then the last thought thatI have around kind of I love the
pink example in the books, Ilove that story of what she did
there, and we don't all have theresources to be able to give
out 2000 books to the concert,but we do have some influence
over someone that we can can bean ally, and so we just have to
(29:45):
keep doing the work and showingup.
Absolutely yeah, Geoffrey,thank you so much for taking
some time to chat with me today.
I'm excited to have yourstories a part of this work, and
I'm also excited that we got todig into some of the new topics
that I'll be exploring in thesecond edition of Creating
(30:05):
Belonging.
So thank you so much, Geoffrey.
Geoffrey (30:08):
You're so welcome.
Thank you for having me.
Justin (30:11):
And thank you all, stay tuned for another episode of the
Creating Belonging podcast.
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