May 1, 2024 • 48 mins
Let us know what you think of this podcast!
Discover the art of genuine communication and the essence of belonging with Kim Clark, a communication strategist and author who navigates the complex interplay of identity with a deft touch. As a white, cisgender woman with Native American roots, a proud member of the LGBTQ+ community, and a mother to children with disabilities, Kim challenges us to confront our privileges and channel them for the upliftment of others. By sharing her personal journey and professional insights, she urges us to examine the threads of self-awareness that bind us together, even within the rich tapestry of our diverse society.
The workplace is not only a bastion of productivity but a microcosm of society, where representation and inclusivity are paramount. Kim Clark and I dissect the imperative need for diversity and the pitfalls of tokenism, emphasizing how embracing our multifaceted identities enriches business and community alike. As we navigate a world where policies often cast shadows on personal lives, Kim underscores the privilege of neutrality and implores us to engage in the necessary, though sometimes uncomfortable, discourse that shapes our collective reality.
Wrapping up our enlightening discussion, we traverse the poignant realities of finding one's place within conflicting identities, such as the reconciliation of faith with sexual orientation, and the societal landscapes navigated by transgender and gender non-conforming individuals. Kim's narrative is a testament to the transformative power of self-acceptance and the essential collaborative effort to foster inclusive spaces. This episode is an invitation to reflect, learn, and embrace the full spectrum of who we are, both individually and together.
Find Kim:
Conscious Communicator
Documentary: God & Gays
Kim Clark Communications Website
LinkedIn
You can order your copy of Creating Belonging on Amazon.
Music:
Wave by Helkimer | https://soundcloud.com/helkimer
Music promoted by https://www.free-stock-music.com
Creative Commons / Attribution 3.0 Unported License (CC BY 3.0)
https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/deed.en_US
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Justin (00:11):
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Creating
Belonging podcast.
Today I have with me Kim Clark.
Kim, would you mind introducingyourself?
Kim (00:20):
Absolutely.
Hi, justin.
It's great to be here.
Thank you for inviting me to bea part of this incredible show
that you have going here.
So my name is Kim ClarkPronouns are she her and what I
do is I work with communicatorson helping them understand what
diversity, equity and inclusionis, and many of them have
(00:40):
belonging as part of theirstrategy as well.
Many of them have belonging aspart of their strategy as well,
so, understanding the role andresponsibility of the
communicator, and I'm also theco-author of the book the
Conscious Communicator the FineArt of Not Saying Stupid, I'll
do.
Family friendly Justin, stop,it's fair.
Justin (00:56):
I say it, it's okay.
Kim (00:59):
All right, the Fine Art of Not Saying Stupid Shit.
So that's book that janetstovall and I co-authored for
this very purpose I love that, Ilove that.
Justin (01:11):
Look, I think I'm all about leaning into authenticity
and so, you know, if I Idefinitely don't have I say what
someone considers swear wordsoccasionally and I'm okay with
that, um, as long as it's notoverly offensive.
Uh, so one thing I like to dowith my guests to get us going
(01:34):
is you know, we I'd love to diginto some of your personal
experiences and so just to setsome of the foundational context
there what identities would youmind sharing for folks to get
us started.
Kim (01:49):
Well, if you were to look at me, I am melanemic, as Jane
Elliott calls it, so I havewhiter skin, lighter skin, and
so, being a white woman,cisgender woman in the world who
has Native American ancestryand is trying, you know, working
diligently to reclaim thatancestry and those cultural
(02:09):
traditions, the language, sothat is something that I'm
working on in the background,doing a documentary on my
family's story as they survivedOnly two members of our tribe,
our family, survived on theTrail of Tears, so I'm doing a
documentary about my family inthat story.
Also, I am part of the LGBTQplus family and community and
(02:30):
came out when I was 28 years old, justin.
So being born and raised in aconservative, the Christian
environment, and raised as aChristian that's a whole story
right there and so I do not havedisabilities, but I have kids
who do have disabilities.
So entering into that world,that community, and what does
(02:51):
support look like, so being verycognizant of my abilities and
and ableism in my language andbehavior has become much more of
a forefront in raising theseguys in this world.
So I think those are the collegeeducated middle class you know.
So there is quite an influenceand a conflation and a desperate
(03:14):
need for reconciliation withsome of my identities being
white and working in diversity,equity, inclusion with Native
American ancestry.
There's a lot of healing thatneeds to happen with those kind
of ancestral paths that you knowmy families have been a part of
in that history and me tryingto reconcile that and move
(03:36):
around in the world, given thesocial context that we're in, is
a big part of my work.
But my kids, they're a bigmotivation, plus my own sexual
orientation identity as well.
That's a pretty big motivationfor me.
Justin (03:54):
Well, it's great that you're doing that work and
digging in there, so we're notgoing to have a shortage of
things to talk about today.
So one place that I want tostart, because you work in this
space, I want to start a littlemore kind of on the the topic of
your work and one of the thingsas I was kind of digging
through.
You know some of the thingsthat you work on in your book.
(04:15):
I want to talk a bit about therole of kind of self-acceptance
or self-assess in.
You talk about that, the rolethat that plays in conscious
communication.
Kim (04:29):
So I'd love to start there, because I think that relates
into authenticity and thecreating belonging model that's
the biggest thing right there isjust just pausing long enough,
just listening to long enough tohearing somebody else's story,
recognizing that my experienceis my own, specific, narrow,
(04:52):
limited experience, and thatother people are having a
different experience than me.
We might be in the same room,but we're having different
experiences.
I love sharing a story of mysister and I, raised by the same
family, you know, but here weare as adults.
We could tell completelydifferent stories about the
exact same event.
So, even if you're livingtogether, if you're working
(05:15):
together, it you know, if youjust bump each other to each
other, with strangers in thegrocery store.
It's this, that awareness, andthen having that awareness of,
like other people, having adifferent experience and pausing
enough to say, to do thatassessment, I think is really,
really important.
And a lot of people miss thatpart and they kind of stop at
(05:36):
the awareness part.
They might recognize thatsomebody else is being followed
in a store when they are not isbeing followed in a store when
they are not.
You know, for example, duringthe summer of 2020, lots of
stories of people in the Blackcommunity started being more
open about you know how they'retreated.
You know, for example, walkingthrough a department store that
they are watched, whereas I'venever found myself to be watched
(06:00):
.
That was not anything I had tothink about.
So there's a sense of awarenessto it.
But then we you know so manypeople will stop at that stage
because it gets uncomfortableand we tend to get defensive
about it.
Or we project or, you know, weshut down, or we get triggered
and rather than take thatinvitation to stay curious and
(06:24):
get into that place ofassessment.
And what does that mean for me?
When I walk into a room as awhite woman, am I recognizing
the privilege that I'm bringinginto that space and what do I do
with that privilege where itcan be advantageous?
You know, for the rest of theroom rather than just for me.
So that awareness to assessmentpiece and then going into
(06:44):
action.
You know for the rest of theroom rather than just for me.
So that awareness to assessmentpiece and then going into
action, you know it just gets.
It's like the funnel, right,justin?
So it's like, you know, there'smore people having awareness,
there's fewer people assessingwhen they have that awareness
and then there's even fewerpeople taking action upon that
awareness and assessment.
Justin (07:02):
So there's I see so much alignment there in kind of how
I view authenticity, and thenauthenticity converging with
acceptance.
So there's the authenticitypiece of knowing who I am,
understanding how I'm showing upand understanding my own values
and perspective, and thenunderstanding that my values and
(07:25):
perspective are not the same asothers.
And so you know, when we'redoing this work appropriately,
we are understanding that noteveryone has the same values as
I do and I'm not applying thosevalues or that perspective to
everyone else.
So it sounds like you've done alot of work here on defining
what this looks like and thenhelping people to to do that.
(07:47):
So if you wouldn't mind sharinga little bit about you know,
either you know individuals thatyou've worked with who've had
challenges in navigating thispiece, or just what are the
steps to be able to effectivelydo this, to understand that my
perspective is only mine and notlaying that on other people.
Kim (08:09):
Yeah, and really ascribing that kind of value that mine is
not more than someone else'sexperience, that somebody else's
experience is less than myexperience.
You know, when you're talkingabout having that awareness that
other people are having another, a different experience, it's
(08:29):
recognizing that that's not abad thing.
You know that's life, you know.
But unfortunately people put ajudgment on it Like you should
have my experience, you shouldbe.
You know parents saying it tokids.
You should be going being adoctor and going to college.
You know you should.
I'm in the workplace and I'm amanager and you have all the
(08:49):
opportunity that you could everwant in this job, when that's
not true for somebody else andsomeone can't see that you know.
So there's kind of this valueand judgment.
You know somebody is cisgenderand may not understand the
transgender experience and thenyou know saying that you're just
going through a phase orsomething.
So we put these value judgmentson other people's experiences
(09:14):
based on our own.
So, professionally, when I'mworking with communicators, over
80% of people who are in-houseprofessional communicators look
like me at least you know, froma skin tone standpoint and so
there's a lot of learning tounderstanding what diversity,
equity and inclusion is, becausewe haven't had to have those
(09:36):
conversations in the workplaceand for, you know, many parts of
the United States, peoplehaven't had to have these
conversations in their faithtraditions, in their
neighborhoods, in their schools.
You know they haven't.
There hasn't been thisconversation right.
And I was raised, justin, youknow, with the whole rule.
(09:57):
You know, no politics andreligion at the dinner table, so
that all those years were lostopportunities to have
conversations with people whoare having different experiences
and being able to see thehumanity behind it all.
So we have a lot of catch up todo and there's such an urgency
(10:17):
because people are, you know,literally dying because we're
not able to move forward inproviding these spaces for
belonging, to point to your work, that because of our own,
whatever it is that's holding us.
And so when I'm working withcommunicators in particular, I'm
(10:38):
trying to help them understandtheir role and responsibility
and the kind of language thatthey use.
Gender neutral language is oneexample, but there's many, many,
many, many examples ofinclusive communications with me
(10:59):
that they understand thatlanguage leads to behavior and
that if you are trying to drivean inclusive workplace, a place
where everybody, no matter whattheir, their path and their
experiences, can truly feel likethey belong in the workplace?
What kind of tone andpersonality language you do, do
you have to use withincommunications to present that
invitation for people and tounderstand and also uncover?
(11:25):
Going back to what you'retalking about earlier of the
awareness and assessment part,looking at their channels,
looking at the visuals thatthey're using, are we
reinforcing stereotypes?
You know, are we cutting outentire populations?
They're not being representedin our communications so people
don't see themselves in the workyou know, um, and so that's the
(11:46):
kind of stuff we have to, wehave to be more aware of, we
have to assess and we have totake action on yeah, the last.
Justin (11:54):
So there's two things I want to grab in there.
One, the, the.
I'll go the most recent, thelast thing that you were talking
about with you know,representation of.
You know, are we, when we'recreating imagery of our
workforce, what does thatimagery look like?
And something I did so while Iwas still in house running
learning and development team.
(12:15):
Something I started to do wasbeing intentional about auditing
content to ensure diverserepresentation of people in
their content.
And then also would storyboardyou know, like storyboard
training modules say, but thengo back and do a diversity
(12:37):
storyboard on it.
So, even if it wasn't adiversity, I would go back and I
would look at, of these people,what are the genders that are
represented, what are the racesthat are represented, what are
the abilities that arerepresented, and making sure
that, look, you're not going tobe able to get every you know
color of the rainbow when itcomes to representation, but is
(12:58):
everybody in here white Rightgoing to be able to get every
you know color of the rainbowwhen it comes to representation,
but is everybody in here whiteright?
Or do they look like apopulation that we would want to
see in our workforce?
Um, and so I think that's suchimportant work that, um, I think
only recently do organizationsreally think about that.
Kim (13:18):
And we need to get them beyond.
We need to get them toawareness, to your point, and we
also need to get them into thatkind of assessment.
You know, mode as well, whereasthere's more organizations that
are more aware of like, oh man,this webpage just is all white
people, for example, or allable-bodied.
You know there's no one herewith disabilities, whatever it
(13:38):
may be.
But we need to get into thatpoint of making sure that we're
not checking the box andtokenizing, initially employees.
Now, if it's stock imagelibraries, you know, just be
thoughtful.
Body size is often a missedopportunity for representation,
for example.
But you know, when you'retalking about employees, do not
(14:00):
tokenize them.
They're not there to be yourposter child.
You know it's not for you tosay, yeah, it looks represent.
You know it looks diverse.
Good, we're all done.
Or you're running a town halland you're like it's all men
that are speaking.
Quick, we need a woman.
Can somebody give me a woman weneed?
You know it's not what we'retrying to do here.
(14:20):
It's the value that theseidentities bring to the
workplace.
Give them a name, but there hasto be a call to action to it as
well.
They're not there to be yourposter child to what I just said
.
It's just like what's the valuethat they provide into the
business?
What's the value that theyprovide into the business?
(15:02):
And when you said that you puttogether you know a plan and
then you put a DEI lens on it,that's what I call.
It is a DEI lens on yourcontent.
Now you know different pointsof view.
You know we would have.
You know your company wouldhave missed out on all of that.
You know they could.
They would have just not hadthat opportunity.
Employees would have had a moreinclusive experience.
So that speaks to the beauty ofdiversity amongst your team,
because there are people who aregoing to bring that lens,
(15:24):
whether they're part of more ofa majority population, but
definitely people who have beenmarginalized with their
identities.
It's actually a superpower thatwe bring these perspectives and
add so much value to thebusiness through those
identities.
Justin (15:43):
Yes, yeah, I love that that we're getting better at
that and I think we still haveroom to grow.
The other thing I think.
So that was kind of on the morecorporate piece.
This next one that I wanted tosomething that's just like
picking at me is talking aboutyou know we, when you, your
(16:04):
family, didn't do quotepolitics- yeah, at the dinner
table and I think about that, Imean the a in the workplace.
It's a touchy thing, but evenwith my own family, you know
there's.
I grew up.
I grew up in Iowa.
Every podcast, everyconversation, I think I grew up
in Iowa, but it says somethingabout you know.
Kim (16:26):
My bias goes right to a picture of what that means,
right?
Justin (16:29):
Yes, and it's probably fairly accurate.
I grew up in rural Iowa and youknow there's very much.
The Iowa that I grew up in wasvery much a live and let live
and don't talk about difficultstuff, and you know, don't we're
not going to do religion orwe're not going to do politics.
(16:49):
And so to this day, there aretimes when you know when I might
bring up politics, that's justnot appreciated, I'm like.
But when my, when my life, whenthe status of my partner are
being questioned by currentpolitics like this isn't about
(17:10):
neutral.
Politics Like this is personalto me and you know, I think when
someone has the privilege ofnot needing to just not be, not
being able to not talk, politicsis privilege because you are
under current, you know, attack.
Kim (17:30):
Right, exactly.
Justin (17:40):
And that's something that I think we need to talk
about more is that, yes, we doneed to talk about politics and
understand the reasons why we'retrying to oppress other, who is
trying to oppress others andwhy?
Kim (17:45):
well, I mean, and the list of identities that's under
attack from a political standard, that the politicization of our
identities.
The list has gotten a lotlonger, um and and even had like
click downs into within eachidentity.
So you have immigration, youhave, you know, latinx
experience, black experience,you've got.
(18:06):
You know.
Lgbtq+, you have abilities,disabilities, and then the LGBTQ
, you know, plus community, butwomen, you know, if you look at
recently I think it was theseven, you know it was an
anniversary of Roe v Wade andyou know it just like it.
You know gender expression,it's like it's just anyone with
(18:41):
birthing capabilities.
That is what over 50% of thepopulation is now in this bucket
where identities have beenpoliticized, where there's been
laws towards certain identities.
So we're at a tipping pointhere over 50% of the population
now.
And then you add onnon-birthing bodies.
(19:03):
You know Black men, you knowHispanic men, etc.
So it's just, we are now wayover.
You know I'm going to make up anumber, but you know 60, 65% of
the population, you know 70% ofthe population, is now on this
list of identities beingpoliticized and regulated by law
(19:25):
to the detriment of thoseidentities and the health and
the well-being and the safety ofthose identities.
So people aren't putting thatin perspective.
It feels like it's over hereand over, here and over here,
but we have to heal that senseof separation and recognize that
there's an interdependency anda larger strategic plan here and
(19:45):
that there's way more of usthan those who are, you know,
trying to force.
You know, the status quo.
So the New York Times, you knowI don't know if you saw this
just come out talking aboutreleased texts and emails from
the billionaires that have beenleading this anti-DEI backlash,
and you know, one of the quotesthat they had in the article was
(20:08):
talking about you know, thatthere's a need for patriarchy,
like patriarchy has to continueto stay in power, you know so
that's you know.
Know so that's the beliefs ofsome people, right, so, but the
more and more that we recognizethat we're under these systems
that are politicizing ouridentities, when our identities
(20:29):
are just nature, you know, it'sjust how nature spit us out,
right?
It's just who we are, and andall of the things, and turning
the corner around, connectingthese dots and saying, wait, you
know, if we're looking at 65,70 percent of our of our
population where theiridentities are being regulated.
(20:51):
You know this is this is apretty serious time and it's
definitely not a time to bepassive.
Justin (21:07):
Yes, yeah, I think we need to be talking about
politics in this lens of youknow, the different identities
that are under attack andbringing awareness to it.
I'm curious your thoughts.
There's just something I'mthinking about in this
conversation.
You know there is a segment ofthe population that is rejecting
this idea of identity politics.
There's kind of a you know putquotes around identity politics,
(21:29):
right, I'm curious yourthoughts on that and kind of the
I don't know like, how has thatbecome a thing?
Kim (21:37):
Yeah, been around for a beat and it just kind of is
weaponized.
You know, like a lot of termsare being weaponized but it's
just kind of made, made itsre-entrance.
Another, an adjacent form ofthis is the whole idea of you
know, I I talk to communicatorsand teach them about inclusive
(21:59):
language.
You know, I just mentioned that.
But people talk about, like youknow, you're trying to police,
you know tone, police what I'msaying and and and tell me that
you know I have to use thesewords and not these other words
and it's like no, actually it'snot about this whole outside in
kind of thing, it's really aninside out kind of inspiration
(22:24):
that we're trying to share withpeople, where it's like I'm not
trying to tell you what to say,but I'm telling you that what
you say impacts me and I'mhoping you care about that.
Then, identity politics to me.
Yes, there's scholarly articles, there's research on it,
(22:51):
there's academia that Iencourage people to look more
into.
That I'm not going to get intohere, but I get into the
experience of it, and sometimesterms and phrases like that are
used to end conversations or tobe used as a weapon.
And if it's not conversation ora term or a phrase that is not
(23:13):
bringing people into theconversation, allowing for
curiosity, fostering learningand encourage people kind of
coming together in a communityto figure this out, because
we've never had a diverse,inclusive, equitable workplace
certainly not a society, unlessyou're part of the native tribes
you know in Ecuador, who doknow how to do.
(23:36):
This side is, we don't know howto do this, so we're trying to
do something we've neverexperienced, but there's a
vision there is, you know, andso we're not going to get
tripped up with identitypolitics and these other kinds
of terms that are used toweaponize and kind of keep the
conversation.
Well, not a conversation, it'sjust like it's trying to stop
(23:58):
the conversation.
It's like I, I can't do that,so I'm going to keep going and I
know that.
You know, and honestly, justin,you know this comes up with the
clients that I work with, wherethey're like well, we can't talk
about politics in the workplace, like Mark Zuckerberg, you know
, was declaring that at Meta.
You know, we're not talkingabout politics and anybody who
(24:20):
does blah, blah, blah Not a goodidea because it's completely
out of integrity of theorganization.
Organizations make decisions.
They.
You know, in order to get anemployee identification number,
you have to go to the governmentin order to you know.
So you're making decisions onwhere you're going to build your
headquarters, based on thestate government relationships
(24:42):
that you're going to have.
So much building is happening inTexas because of the tax breaks
that the governments state,city, municipal governments are
giving corporations.
There's a relationship, there'slobbying, you know that kind of
stuff.
So you can't, you don't get tosay we're not going to talk
about politics when you'remaking so many huge decisions
(25:04):
for your organization thatdirectly impacts those employees
, based on your relationshipswith politicians.
You know legislation,legislators, you know whether
it's at the local county,whatever level it may be.
So it's inviting us into theconversation because the
collateral damage tends to beemployees when we aren't talking
(25:27):
about it.
But we don't.
If the power is outside of ourwalls that are allowing our
identities to be politicized,and then we don't have a DEI
strategy to protect us from that, then we have every right to
have that conversation.
Right, you know.
(25:50):
It just means that we don'thave the skill set to do it in a
productive, constructive way,and there's this fear of loss of
control rather than leaning inon the collaboration that could
come out of it.
Justin (26:02):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, it's like.
I think it's a simple way tothink about it is you know, hey,
meta, as an example, and MarkZuckerberg, do you have LGBTQ
plus identifying employees?
If you do, your employees arehaving laws introduced that are
negatively impacting their lives.
(26:23):
Do you care about that?
Do you care about youremployees?
And I think that's theperspective that needs to be
taken.
Kim (26:31):
I thought that, and in so many organizations, will donate
to politicians, like in Florida.
An advocacy organizationapproached us and said hey, the
recent political donation youmade to X legislator is also
that same legislator issupportive of the anti-LGBTQ
plus laws taking effect inFlorida and you're a sponsor of
(26:55):
Pride and you have a contingencyof employees walking in Pride.
So we wanted to let you knowthat this politician is doing
that so you can stay integritywith your support of the
community.
Well, unfortunately, leadersfired back and were mad at the
advocacy group and so it's likeno, they just turned on the
(27:16):
light, you're doing this.
So their response to me waswell, we didn't want to get in
the middle of these culture wars.
I'm like, but you're fundingthe culture wars.
So if you're giving money tothese politicians, yes, you're
giving it to them saying, hey,thank you for protecting our
business interests and ourindustries, and you know that's
(27:38):
why you're doing it.
But then they're also involvedin these culture aspects.
You can't compartmentalize thatbecause they're not.
They're just taking the money,doing whatever they're going to
do.
So you know, the conversationhas to be within the power
dynamics between theorganization and the politicians
.
So it's not with the advocacygroup.
(28:01):
It's not with the employees,it's not with the customers, you
know, but with the employees.
It's not with the customers, butyet we're the ones that become
the collateral damage becauseorganizational leaders are not
having these conversations withpoliticians and legislators and
saying thank you for all yoursupport, but I cannot fund you
if you're going to put my people, my customers, my employees in
(28:23):
harm's way.
I can't, I can't, I will notfund you if you're going to
support this.
This is not okay, you know, andconnecting the dots that
culture impacts businessoutcomes and so many times
leaders don't make thatconnection, even though they
will purport values, they willtalk about belonging and
inclusion, but they still don'tmake the connection of intent
(28:47):
and impact.
So very interesting situationto work with that client because
they were literally firing backat the advocacy group.
Well, we've done all of thesethings, we've given all this
money, we've done all theseriver cleanups, and the advocacy
group is like okay, great,thank you.
That's apples, we're talkingabout oranges.
Justin (29:08):
Yeah.
Kim (29:09):
Because the leaders aren't making the connection, that
that's not the conversationwe're having and you're being
really defensive when we'resaying we can help you be in
integrity with yourself, but youhave to be consistent.
We're asking organizations tobe consistent.
Justin (29:26):
Yeah, it's great work that you're doing there.
I want to shift gears a littlebit and I know that we talked
about the role of religion inyour kind of upbringing and, you
know, kind of in your comingout process.
I'd love to talk about that andhow it impacted belonging in
(29:50):
that journey.
Kim (29:51):
Great question.
Yeah, I mentioned that I wasraised in a conservative
Christian environment all theway through high school.
You know the kind of placewhere everyone's white and you
sing for a hymnal and it soundslike a funeral every single
sunday because nobody has anykind of pizzazz.
(30:11):
Um, I've shown movies that rockand rolls from the devil.
You know no sex before marriage.
Marriage is only between a manand a woman, the whole thing.
So I felt like I belonged inthat.
Yeah, as a kid I loved the feltlittle.
(30:33):
You know wise men that we wouldplay out on the storyboard in
Sunday school.
I loved the stories.
I loved the moral compass.
I loved being introduced tobelieving that there's something
bigger, there's a greaterpurpose.
There is an energy out therethat created you and you get to
be in its like image.
(30:53):
I loved the kind of thosespiritual principles of it.
But it wasn't until I was likea junior in high school that I
realized that.
But it wasn't until I was like ajunior in high school that I
realized that this was reallyout of touch with life in my
(31:13):
experience and I did notrecognize that I was gay until I
was in my 20s and fell in lovewith a female roommate that had
just moved in, in love with afemale roommate that had just
moved in.
She's just walking down thehallway as she carries her lamp
into her new bedroom and I'mlike what is happening to me
right now?
What is happening right now?
(31:34):
The funny, funniest part ofthat story is I was getting
ready for work when I waswatching her walk up and down
the hallway with the lamp andwhatever, and I was getting
ready for work and I had walkedback.
I had walked into the closet toget my belt because I was
getting ready for work and I'mlike I walked in the closet and
I realized the fun with that.
(31:56):
I'm like I just walked in thecloset, huh.
But I actually started a two tothree year spiral for me because
I had a lot of difficultyreconciling and very, very
worried that God wouldn't loveme anymore kind of thing.
I didn't have a problem with,gay people apply to me and I
(32:20):
felt that it was threatening myvery existence as someone who
was very, very devout andfollowing all of the practices
that our denomination followed,and so it did get pretty dire
there for a while where Ithought the world would be
better off without me kind of athing.
(32:40):
And but bless my mom, who wasliving several states away from
me, and I called her and whileshe didn't understand and she
was very worried about me that'swhat she focused on she didn't
get hung up on.
You know, I'm 28 years old atthis point, so I'm not living
under her roof or anything.
I'm, you know, independent, soI had that privilege.
(33:02):
But she didn't put her lack ofunderstanding on me.
She didn't put judgment on me.
She just heard that herdaughter is really struggling
and considering some prettyserious decisions, and so that's
all she heard and she reallystepped up.
I didn't tell my dad for awhile because he's not really
good at that stuff.
So my mom and I are reallyclose, but she's been.
(33:25):
She was the one that raised mein the church so and I found
that it wasn't really myexternal family or friends at
first that were my big, it wasmy own internalized homophobia.
That was that almost cost me mylife.
And so I am very, very pleasedthat I had this interesting
(33:49):
awakening one time when I waskind of doing the whole like
falling on the floor.
God isn't going to love meanymore.
I'm so scared that God's notgoing to love me anymore.
And you know where you're onyour side on the carpet and
snot's coming out and you knowyou can't reach the Kleenex box
and it's all just kind of youknow pud.
You're on your side on thecarpet and snot's coming out and
you know you can't reach theKleenex box.
It's all just kind of you knowpuddling there on the carpet.
(34:09):
And I realized I remembered thisreally stupid poster that I had
when I was in second grade, oneof those scholastic posters
that you get when you get a bookorder and it said God don't
make no junk.
And I realized, well, whileit's grammatically incorrect, I
found the spiritual principlebehind it profound in that
(34:29):
moment and it just started, mademe laugh.
It just started, I just startedlaughing and then I realized
wait, wait, wait.
If I'm made in God's image oruniverse's image, I just what am
I doing?
Questioning the purpose of this?
(34:50):
This is, you know, this is whoI am.
I'm just awakening more to whoI am, which would solve the
mystery of why I was with thisguy for seven years and never
slept with him.
That was a total.
I thought it was theChristianity.
You know the commitment.
You know if we're not married.
It's not happening.
But no, it was actually becauseI'm gay.
Justin (35:11):
Yeah.
Kim (35:13):
So I was actually kicked out.
Just the opposite of belonging.
I was kicked out of the church,obviously, you know.
You know I didn't have myfriends anymore.
But my family struggled butthey didn't put it on me, they
went somewhere else to strugglewith it.
But there was some friction fora while there.
My sister didn't recognize myrelationship with this woman.
(35:33):
For a long time she didn't seeit as equal value to her and her
husband.
It wasn't easy peasy by anymeans.
When I even got, I startedhealing my own internalized
homophobia, but so I had justthe opposite of belonging when I
was going through the comingout experience.
But prior to that, yeah, when Iwas obeying the rules and I was
(35:56):
doing everything I was told todo, oh yeah, I completely
belonged.
But stepping out of that,having a sense of independence
and my own self-determination,oh no, absolutely not.
And that was personally.
But professionally I was fine.
I didn't have any problems atwork because I worked at a rock
radio station.
So they loved it.
(36:17):
They thought it was fantasticright, it's a rock radio station
, and but it took years, justin.
It took years for me to like.
I was going to start a hotlinefor what I called orphans,
people who are gay and Christian.
You know, I was like I wasreally lost.
I was, I was.
I fell through the cracks therebecause I didn't feel safe and
comfortable in the gay communityyet and I didn't.
(36:39):
I couldn't, I couldn't evencall myself that for a long time
and I couldn't even call myselfthat for a long time.
And I was also kind of lost innot knowing that.
I wasn't welcomed in thechurches that I was familiar
with.
I was told I couldn't lead anykind of a team when I had been
leading several teams, and sothere was definitely penalties
and consequences.
(36:59):
But I'll tell you, it's allworth it, it gets better, like
the Trevor Project says.
And now, not only do I feellike I belong in my family in
the work that I do, thespiritual practice I'm a
spiritual practitioner.
Now my mentor, my DEI mentorand coach, is a reverend who's a
gay woman out of LA.
(37:21):
Who's a gay woman out of LA.
So I have found my spaces.
But I think the most profoundsense of belonging has just been
within my own skin, within whoI am embracing becoming a
spiritual practitioner,embracing that and standing on
solid ground on my sexualidentity, so much so that I made
a documentary, loosely based onmy story called God and Gays
(37:43):
Bridging the Gap, and it'sonline.
It was made in 2005.
So my hair is don't judge me onmy hair, but it, you know.
I just I wanted to tell thestory and I wanted to help other
people feel a sense ofbelonging the way you know.
You know, because I was ableand continue, I'm able to
experience it.
Justin (38:03):
You know, because I was able and continue, I'm able to
experience it.
Thank you so much for sharingall of that.
It's I think one of the placesI'm going is just.
You know what's happening rightnow in the book bands and the
(38:29):
don't say gay bills like all ofthat is to create an experience
that replicates what you grew upwith.
Right, you know it's, it's, andthat's why I get, I get, so I
get so worked up about thosethings.
Because we need those.
The young versions of us needthose.
The young versions of us needthat representation, need some
sign somewhere that says, hey,it's okay to be who you are,
(38:53):
even if they're raised in ahousehold that is extremely
conservative Christian.
That tells them they're goingto hell.
That, you know, gives them aglimmer of hope that maybe
there's something out there thatI can, a way that I can belong,
a way that I can be who I am.
Kim (39:13):
And you're not broken and there's nothing wrong with you.
You're just evolving intolearning about who you are.
So I have found that, you know,universe wastes nothing.
So for me to be raised in thatkind of environment and being a
white person and now doing thiswork that I am, when people say,
you know, I can't, I can'tsupport, you know, gay people,
(39:36):
that's against the Bible andit's like, well, let's talk
about those 11 scriptures.
I know the scriptures so I canhave a conversation.
I'm not going to get intodebate.
I'm going to listen to you, youknow, and I'm going to, you
know, help you through your owndiscomfort, because this isn't
about the gay person that you'reupset at.
This is about your ownevolution.
(39:56):
It's about your discomfort.
So I'm focusing on you.
I'm not worried about that gayperson that you're saying is
going to hell, you know, becausethey're fine.
They're fine.
Universe has their back.
They're living their life,they're having their experience.
Let's talk about yourexperience.
Off for you.
(40:25):
What, what, what, what is itthat you're really struggling
with that?
You know that this person isreflecting upon you, that they
are allowed to have this senseof independence and authenticity
because you talk yeah, it's alot big part of your work is
authenticity.
When people and alok, you knowthe activist, the trans activist
, you know, look, you know talksabout this a lot.
It's just lgbtq plus, especiallygender non-conforming,
non-binary, transgender peoplewhen they're living their truth,
(40:47):
it's like people who have notgotten that permission, they've
not had the space in the room tofigure out who they are,
whether it has anything to dowith gender expression or sexual
orientation or not, just thesense of seeing somebody else
live in their truth and beingwho they are in their authentic
self.
When this person over here hasnever had that permission or
(41:09):
will, their love will bewithheld from them and all that
kind of stuff.
The anger is genuine, it's real, it's valid.
It's just they put it on thisperson, the trans person, over,
but it's actually about theirown limitations, their own lack
of safety and security andself-identification and all that
(41:31):
kind of stuff.
It's like so I want to spendtime with you here.
This person is going to go onand move on with their life, but
there's a reflection of theirexperience that's really
triggering for you.
How can I help you with that?
Justin (41:45):
Yeah, I love that perspective that it's about
their inability to lean intotheir own authenticity.
Kim (41:55):
They don't have the tools yeah.
Justin (41:58):
There's something powerful in that, and I'm going
to think about that for a whilebecause I don't.
Kim (42:05):
It helps with compassion, that's for sure, but still cut
it off.
It's like we're going to getthat person out of the scenario
because it's really not aboutthe trans person, right?
I don't.
You need attention.
You're clearly asking for it,even if it's in a negative way,
negative attention.
But it's like if you needsomebody to listen to you, let's
(42:34):
talk about how to work with youto step into your own
authenticity.
Justin (42:38):
Yeah, yeah, and that's the other perspective that I
always have on it is is how isthat trans person harming you?
What?
What are?
What are they doing?
So maybe you don't agree withthem, but they're still not
harming you.
Kim (42:58):
The authenticity is too much to handle.
For some people.
It's like their light is whenthey see someone who's trans the
trans person's light is justtoo blinding.
They can't handle it.
So they make it the transperson's problem that they can't
handle.
And so that's where we need to.
(43:19):
You know, in organizations, ifsomebody says we're not going to
do this, you know, have thisgay speaker come speak during
pride, or we're not going tohave these fires up on the, you
know, with the rainbow hands andstuff anymore, because that's
offensive and that's against myreligion.
And organizations have been, oh, okay, okay, no, no, no.
It's just like let's talk.
(43:42):
So here's our company values,right here.
You know, respect is one ofthem, inclusion is one of them,
you know, and so it's like wehave to, we have to hold the
line but invite people into thework.
So people are saying this isoffensive to me if you're going
to have these pride postersaround here, and it's like, ok,
how can we help you with that?
(44:02):
Because we believe in respectand that includes respect for
you and that includes respectfor you, you know.
But this we're not.
We're not backing off on this.
(44:23):
This is happening.
So what can, what can we do tohelp you, you know, be a part of
our culture moving.
What is it in Florida?
It's like what 11 people thatare primarily banning the books.
It's like you know.
So it's a bigger, it soundsreally really big and it is
impacting thousands of people.
My nephews and nieces are goingthrough public education in
Florida with none of this, youknow, historical accuracy at all
(44:46):
right, and so it's like this isa real impact, but it's led by
few.
So what can we do to hold theline to say, oh no, we stand for
life and we're not going to beputting on you know something
that we don't understand laws onother people.
It's just we have to takeresponsibility for what we say
(45:07):
and what we do.
But there's so many of us thathave been so accustomed to
things just going the way, howwe see them.
We've never gone throughpractices or drills or, you know
, skilling camps, you know, tobe able to, you know, handle
(45:27):
these kinds of changes, to beable to, you know, handle these
kinds of changes, and so what wedo is lash out like wounded
animals to try to regain control, which is what we're seeing
with the billionaires've beenseeing, especially around.
(45:48):
Higher education is, to me muchmore and more and more
demonstrative of the desperationof trying to hold onto control
rather than recognize theopportunity of the collaboration
.
Like I was saying earlier,desperation is so obvious to
(46:08):
many of us and we need to buildthe skills.
We need to build the skills andthis is about change management
as well but we can't stop beingwho we are authentically.
But we also have to make roomand have compassion for people
who this is brand new, forThey've never met a trans person
(46:31):
, you know and and they onlyknow how to try to get back into
the comfort zone andre-establish control, like
that's all they know and it's avery limited tool belt well, kim
, I want to thank you so muchfor your time today and I want
to thank you for the work thatyou do.
Justin (46:49):
You're doing amazing work in helping to transform
workplaces for others and makethem better, so thank you.
I'll put links in show notes,but if people want to reach out
to you and find you, where canthey find you?
Kim (47:09):
yeah, please pick up the book if it would be helpful to
you.
The conscious communicator, thefine art of not saying stupid
shit.
And then if you're interestedin the documentary in the 2005
look, it's called god and gaysbridging the gap.
It's available online.
Used to be on dvd.
Remember dvds justin back inthe day like, yeah, yes I have I
love, even my closet somewhereyeah, it came out on DVD
(47:29):
originally, so that's how old itis.
And then professionally, mywebsite is
kimclarkcommunicationscom.
Justin (47:37):
Great Well, Kim.
Thank you so much, and I'mdefinitely going to add the
documentary to my watch list.
Kim (47:44):
Great, yeah, Anyone who has Christianity, Catholicism or
even Judaism as part of theirexperience and are curious about
because I have some people whoare biblical scholars that talk
about the scriptures.
So if you need some tangibleways of having conversations
with people, you can't convincethem, but you can live your
(48:07):
truth and then be the role modelthat they seek to learn more
from.
Then the movie can be a reallypowerful validation, especially
for people who are going throughthe struggle right now.
Justin (48:21):
Great.
Well, thank you so much, kim,and thank you all for listening.
Join us again for anotherepisode of the Creating Longing
Podcast.
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Creating
Belonging podcast.
Today I have with me Kim Clark.
Kim, would you mind introducingyourself?
Kim (00:20):
Absolutely.
Hi, justin.
It's great to be here.
Thank you for inviting me to bea part of this incredible show
that you have going here.
So my name is Kim ClarkPronouns are she her and what I
do is I work with communicatorson helping them understand what
diversity, equity and inclusionis, and many of them have
(00:40):
belonging as part of theirstrategy as well.
Many of them have belonging aspart of their strategy as well,
so, understanding the role andresponsibility of the
communicator, and I'm also theco-author of the book the
Conscious Communicator the FineArt of Not Saying Stupid, I'll
do.
Family friendly Justin, stop,it's fair.
Justin (00:56):
I say it, it's okay.
Kim (00:59):
All right, the Fine Art of Not Saying Stupid Shit.
So that's book that janetstovall and I co-authored for
this very purpose I love that, Ilove that.
Justin (01:11):
Look, I think I'm all about leaning into authenticity
and so, you know, if I Idefinitely don't have I say what
someone considers swear wordsoccasionally and I'm okay with
that, um, as long as it's notoverly offensive.
Uh, so one thing I like to dowith my guests to get us going
(01:34):
is you know, we I'd love to diginto some of your personal
experiences and so just to setsome of the foundational context
there what identities would youmind sharing for folks to get
us started.
Kim (01:49):
Well, if you were to look at me, I am melanemic, as Jane
Elliott calls it, so I havewhiter skin, lighter skin, and
so, being a white woman,cisgender woman in the world who
has Native American ancestryand is trying, you know, working
diligently to reclaim thatancestry and those cultural
(02:09):
traditions, the language, sothat is something that I'm
working on in the background,doing a documentary on my
family's story as they survivedOnly two members of our tribe,
our family, survived on theTrail of Tears, so I'm doing a
documentary about my family inthat story.
Also, I am part of the LGBTQplus family and community and
(02:30):
came out when I was 28 years old, justin.
So being born and raised in aconservative, the Christian
environment, and raised as aChristian that's a whole story
right there and so I do not havedisabilities, but I have kids
who do have disabilities.
So entering into that world,that community, and what does
(02:51):
support look like, so being verycognizant of my abilities and
and ableism in my language andbehavior has become much more of
a forefront in raising theseguys in this world.
So I think those are the collegeeducated middle class you know.
So there is quite an influenceand a conflation and a desperate
(03:14):
need for reconciliation withsome of my identities being
white and working in diversity,equity, inclusion with Native
American ancestry.
There's a lot of healing thatneeds to happen with those kind
of ancestral paths that you knowmy families have been a part of
in that history and me tryingto reconcile that and move
(03:36):
around in the world, given thesocial context that we're in, is
a big part of my work.
But my kids, they're a bigmotivation, plus my own sexual
orientation identity as well.
That's a pretty big motivationfor me.
Justin (03:54):
Well, it's great that you're doing that work and
digging in there, so we're notgoing to have a shortage of
things to talk about today.
So one place that I want tostart, because you work in this
space, I want to start a littlemore kind of on the the topic of
your work and one of the thingsas I was kind of digging
through.
You know some of the thingsthat you work on in your book.
(04:15):
I want to talk a bit about therole of kind of self-acceptance
or self-assess in.
You talk about that, the rolethat that plays in conscious
communication.
Kim (04:29):
So I'd love to start there, because I think that relates
into authenticity and thecreating belonging model that's
the biggest thing right there isjust just pausing long enough,
just listening to long enough tohearing somebody else's story,
recognizing that my experienceis my own, specific, narrow,
(04:52):
limited experience, and thatother people are having a
different experience than me.
We might be in the same room,but we're having different
experiences.
I love sharing a story of mysister and I, raised by the same
family, you know, but here weare as adults.
We could tell completelydifferent stories about the
exact same event.
So, even if you're livingtogether, if you're working
(05:15):
together, it you know, if youjust bump each other to each
other, with strangers in thegrocery store.
It's this, that awareness, andthen having that awareness of,
like other people, having adifferent experience and pausing
enough to say, to do thatassessment, I think is really,
really important.
And a lot of people miss thatpart and they kind of stop at
(05:36):
the awareness part.
They might recognize thatsomebody else is being followed
in a store when they are not isbeing followed in a store when
they are not.
You know, for example, duringthe summer of 2020, lots of
stories of people in the Blackcommunity started being more
open about you know how they'retreated.
You know, for example, walkingthrough a department store that
they are watched, whereas I'venever found myself to be watched
(06:00):
.
That was not anything I had tothink about.
So there's a sense of awarenessto it.
But then we you know so manypeople will stop at that stage
because it gets uncomfortableand we tend to get defensive
about it.
Or we project or, you know, weshut down, or we get triggered
and rather than take thatinvitation to stay curious and
(06:24):
get into that place ofassessment.
And what does that mean for me?
When I walk into a room as awhite woman, am I recognizing
the privilege that I'm bringinginto that space and what do I do
with that privilege where itcan be advantageous?
You know, for the rest of theroom rather than just for me.
So that awareness to assessmentpiece and then going into
(06:44):
action.
You know for the rest of theroom rather than just for me.
So that awareness to assessmentpiece and then going into
action, you know it just gets.
It's like the funnel, right,justin?
So it's like, you know, there'smore people having awareness,
there's fewer people assessingwhen they have that awareness
and then there's even fewerpeople taking action upon that
awareness and assessment.
Justin (07:02):
So there's I see so much alignment there in kind of how
I view authenticity, and thenauthenticity converging with
acceptance.
So there's the authenticitypiece of knowing who I am,
understanding how I'm showing upand understanding my own values
and perspective, and thenunderstanding that my values and
(07:25):
perspective are not the same asothers.
And so you know, when we'redoing this work appropriately,
we are understanding that noteveryone has the same values as
I do and I'm not applying thosevalues or that perspective to
everyone else.
So it sounds like you've done alot of work here on defining
what this looks like and thenhelping people to to do that.
(07:47):
So if you wouldn't mind sharinga little bit about you know,
either you know individuals thatyou've worked with who've had
challenges in navigating thispiece, or just what are the
steps to be able to effectivelydo this, to understand that my
perspective is only mine and notlaying that on other people.
Kim (08:09):
Yeah, and really ascribing that kind of value that mine is
not more than someone else'sexperience, that somebody else's
experience is less than myexperience.
You know, when you're talkingabout having that awareness that
other people are having another, a different experience, it's
(08:29):
recognizing that that's not abad thing.
You know that's life, you know.
But unfortunately people put ajudgment on it Like you should
have my experience, you shouldbe.
You know parents saying it tokids.
You should be going being adoctor and going to college.
You know you should.
I'm in the workplace and I'm amanager and you have all the
(08:49):
opportunity that you could everwant in this job, when that's
not true for somebody else andsomeone can't see that you know.
So there's kind of this valueand judgment.
You know somebody is cisgenderand may not understand the
transgender experience and thenyou know saying that you're just
going through a phase orsomething.
So we put these value judgmentson other people's experiences
(09:14):
based on our own.
So, professionally, when I'mworking with communicators, over
80% of people who are in-houseprofessional communicators look
like me at least you know, froma skin tone standpoint and so
there's a lot of learning tounderstanding what diversity,
equity and inclusion is, becausewe haven't had to have those
(09:36):
conversations in the workplaceand for, you know, many parts of
the United States, peoplehaven't had to have these
conversations in their faithtraditions, in their
neighborhoods, in their schools.
You know they haven't.
There hasn't been thisconversation right.
And I was raised, justin, youknow, with the whole rule.
(09:57):
You know, no politics andreligion at the dinner table, so
that all those years were lostopportunities to have
conversations with people whoare having different experiences
and being able to see thehumanity behind it all.
So we have a lot of catch up todo and there's such an urgency
(10:17):
because people are, you know,literally dying because we're
not able to move forward inproviding these spaces for
belonging, to point to your work, that because of our own,
whatever it is that's holding us.
And so when I'm working withcommunicators in particular, I'm
(10:38):
trying to help them understandtheir role and responsibility
and the kind of language thatthey use.
Gender neutral language is oneexample, but there's many, many,
many, many examples ofinclusive communications with me
(10:59):
that they understand thatlanguage leads to behavior and
that if you are trying to drivean inclusive workplace, a place
where everybody, no matter whattheir, their path and their
experiences, can truly feel likethey belong in the workplace?
What kind of tone andpersonality language you do, do
you have to use withincommunications to present that
invitation for people and tounderstand and also uncover?
(11:25):
Going back to what you'retalking about earlier of the
awareness and assessment part,looking at their channels,
looking at the visuals thatthey're using, are we
reinforcing stereotypes?
You know, are we cutting outentire populations?
They're not being representedin our communications so people
don't see themselves in the workyou know, um, and so that's the
(11:46):
kind of stuff we have to, wehave to be more aware of, we
have to assess and we have totake action on yeah, the last.
Justin (11:54):
So there's two things I want to grab in there.
One, the, the.
I'll go the most recent, thelast thing that you were talking
about with you know,representation of.
You know, are we, when we'recreating imagery of our
workforce, what does thatimagery look like?
And something I did so while Iwas still in house running
learning and development team.
(12:15):
Something I started to do wasbeing intentional about auditing
content to ensure diverserepresentation of people in
their content.
And then also would storyboardyou know, like storyboard
training modules say, but thengo back and do a diversity
(12:37):
storyboard on it.
So, even if it wasn't adiversity, I would go back and I
would look at, of these people,what are the genders that are
represented, what are the racesthat are represented, what are
the abilities that arerepresented, and making sure
that, look, you're not going tobe able to get every you know
color of the rainbow when itcomes to representation, but is
(12:58):
everybody in here white Rightgoing to be able to get every
you know color of the rainbowwhen it comes to representation,
but is everybody in here whiteright?
Or do they look like apopulation that we would want to
see in our workforce?
Um, and so I think that's suchimportant work that, um, I think
only recently do organizationsreally think about that.
Kim (13:18):
And we need to get them beyond.
We need to get them toawareness, to your point, and we
also need to get them into thatkind of assessment.
You know, mode as well, whereasthere's more organizations that
are more aware of like, oh man,this webpage just is all white
people, for example, or allable-bodied.
You know there's no one herewith disabilities, whatever it
(13:38):
may be.
But we need to get into thatpoint of making sure that we're
not checking the box andtokenizing, initially employees.
Now, if it's stock imagelibraries, you know, just be
thoughtful.
Body size is often a missedopportunity for representation,
for example.
But you know, when you'retalking about employees, do not
(14:00):
tokenize them.
They're not there to be yourposter child.
You know it's not for you tosay, yeah, it looks represent.
You know it looks diverse.
Good, we're all done.
Or you're running a town halland you're like it's all men
that are speaking.
Quick, we need a woman.
Can somebody give me a woman weneed?
You know it's not what we'retrying to do here.
(14:20):
It's the value that theseidentities bring to the
workplace.
Give them a name, but there hasto be a call to action to it as
well.
They're not there to be yourposter child to what I just said
.
It's just like what's the valuethat they provide into the
business?
What's the value that theyprovide into the business?
(15:02):
And when you said that you puttogether you know a plan and
then you put a DEI lens on it,that's what I call.
It is a DEI lens on yourcontent.
Now you know different pointsof view.
You know we would have.
You know your company wouldhave missed out on all of that.
You know they could.
They would have just not hadthat opportunity.
Employees would have had a moreinclusive experience.
So that speaks to the beauty ofdiversity amongst your team,
because there are people who aregoing to bring that lens,
(15:24):
whether they're part of more ofa majority population, but
definitely people who have beenmarginalized with their
identities.
It's actually a superpower thatwe bring these perspectives and
add so much value to thebusiness through those
identities.
Justin (15:43):
Yes, yeah, I love that that we're getting better at
that and I think we still haveroom to grow.
The other thing I think.
So that was kind of on the morecorporate piece.
This next one that I wanted tosomething that's just like
picking at me is talking aboutyou know we, when you, your
(16:04):
family, didn't do quotepolitics- yeah, at the dinner
table and I think about that, Imean the a in the workplace.
It's a touchy thing, but evenwith my own family, you know
there's.
I grew up.
I grew up in Iowa.
Every podcast, everyconversation, I think I grew up
in Iowa, but it says somethingabout you know.
Kim (16:26):
My bias goes right to a picture of what that means,
right?
Justin (16:29):
Yes, and it's probably fairly accurate.
I grew up in rural Iowa and youknow there's very much.
The Iowa that I grew up in wasvery much a live and let live
and don't talk about difficultstuff, and you know, don't we're
not going to do religion orwe're not going to do politics.
(16:49):
And so to this day, there aretimes when you know when I might
bring up politics, that's justnot appreciated, I'm like.
But when my, when my life, whenthe status of my partner are
being questioned by currentpolitics like this isn't about
(17:10):
neutral.
Politics Like this is personalto me and you know, I think when
someone has the privilege ofnot needing to just not be, not
being able to not talk, politicsis privilege because you are
under current, you know, attack.
Kim (17:30):
Right, exactly.
Justin (17:40):
And that's something that I think we need to talk
about more is that, yes, we doneed to talk about politics and
understand the reasons why we'retrying to oppress other, who is
trying to oppress others andwhy?
Kim (17:45):
well, I mean, and the list of identities that's under
attack from a political standard, that the politicization of our
identities.
The list has gotten a lotlonger, um and and even had like
click downs into within eachidentity.
So you have immigration, youhave, you know, latinx
experience, black experience,you've got.
(18:06):
You know.
Lgbtq+, you have abilities,disabilities, and then the LGBTQ
, you know, plus community, butwomen, you know, if you look at
recently I think it was theseven, you know it was an
anniversary of Roe v Wade andyou know it just like it.
You know gender expression,it's like it's just anyone with
(18:41):
birthing capabilities.
That is what over 50% of thepopulation is now in this bucket
where identities have beenpoliticized, where there's been
laws towards certain identities.
So we're at a tipping pointhere over 50% of the population
now.
And then you add onnon-birthing bodies.
(19:03):
You know Black men, you knowHispanic men, etc.
So it's just, we are now wayover.
You know I'm going to make up anumber, but you know 60, 65% of
the population, you know 70% ofthe population, is now on this
list of identities beingpoliticized and regulated by law
(19:25):
to the detriment of thoseidentities and the health and
the well-being and the safety ofthose identities.
So people aren't putting thatin perspective.
It feels like it's over hereand over, here and over here,
but we have to heal that senseof separation and recognize that
there's an interdependency anda larger strategic plan here and
(19:45):
that there's way more of usthan those who are, you know,
trying to force.
You know, the status quo.
So the New York Times, you knowI don't know if you saw this
just come out talking aboutreleased texts and emails from
the billionaires that have beenleading this anti-DEI backlash,
and you know, one of the quotesthat they had in the article was
(20:08):
talking about you know, thatthere's a need for patriarchy,
like patriarchy has to continueto stay in power, you know so
that's you know.
Know so that's the beliefs ofsome people, right, so, but the
more and more that we recognizethat we're under these systems
that are politicizing ouridentities, when our identities
(20:29):
are just nature, you know, it'sjust how nature spit us out,
right?
It's just who we are, and andall of the things, and turning
the corner around, connectingthese dots and saying, wait, you
know, if we're looking at 65,70 percent of our of our
population where theiridentities are being regulated.
(20:51):
You know this is this is apretty serious time and it's
definitely not a time to bepassive.
Justin (21:07):
Yes, yeah, I think we need to be talking about
politics in this lens of youknow, the different identities
that are under attack andbringing awareness to it.
I'm curious your thoughts.
There's just something I'mthinking about in this
conversation.
You know there is a segment ofthe population that is rejecting
this idea of identity politics.
There's kind of a you know putquotes around identity politics,
(21:29):
right, I'm curious yourthoughts on that and kind of the
I don't know like, how has thatbecome a thing?
Kim (21:37):
Yeah, been around for a beat and it just kind of is
weaponized.
You know, like a lot of termsare being weaponized but it's
just kind of made, made itsre-entrance.
Another, an adjacent form ofthis is the whole idea of you
know, I I talk to communicatorsand teach them about inclusive
(21:59):
language.
You know, I just mentioned that.
But people talk about, like youknow, you're trying to police,
you know tone, police what I'msaying and and and tell me that
you know I have to use thesewords and not these other words
and it's like no, actually it'snot about this whole outside in
kind of thing, it's really aninside out kind of inspiration
(22:24):
that we're trying to share withpeople, where it's like I'm not
trying to tell you what to say,but I'm telling you that what
you say impacts me and I'mhoping you care about that.
Then, identity politics to me.
Yes, there's scholarly articles, there's research on it,
(22:51):
there's academia that Iencourage people to look more
into.
That I'm not going to get intohere, but I get into the
experience of it, and sometimesterms and phrases like that are
used to end conversations or tobe used as a weapon.
And if it's not conversation ora term or a phrase that is not
(23:13):
bringing people into theconversation, allowing for
curiosity, fostering learningand encourage people kind of
coming together in a communityto figure this out, because
we've never had a diverse,inclusive, equitable workplace
certainly not a society, unlessyou're part of the native tribes
you know in Ecuador, who doknow how to do.
(23:36):
This side is, we don't know howto do this, so we're trying to
do something we've neverexperienced, but there's a
vision there is, you know, andso we're not going to get
tripped up with identitypolitics and these other kinds
of terms that are used toweaponize and kind of keep the
conversation.
Well, not a conversation, it'sjust like it's trying to stop
(23:58):
the conversation.
It's like I, I can't do that,so I'm going to keep going and I
know that.
You know, and honestly, justin,you know this comes up with the
clients that I work with, wherethey're like well, we can't talk
about politics in the workplace, like Mark Zuckerberg, you know
, was declaring that at Meta.
You know, we're not talkingabout politics and anybody who
(24:20):
does blah, blah, blah Not a goodidea because it's completely
out of integrity of theorganization.
Organizations make decisions.
They.
You know, in order to get anemployee identification number,
you have to go to the governmentin order to you know.
So you're making decisions onwhere you're going to build your
headquarters, based on thestate government relationships
(24:42):
that you're going to have.
So much building is happening inTexas because of the tax breaks
that the governments state,city, municipal governments are
giving corporations.
There's a relationship, there'slobbying, you know that kind of
stuff.
So you can't, you don't get tosay we're not going to talk
about politics when you'remaking so many huge decisions
(25:04):
for your organization thatdirectly impacts those employees
, based on your relationshipswith politicians.
You know legislation,legislators, you know whether
it's at the local county,whatever level it may be.
So it's inviting us into theconversation because the
collateral damage tends to beemployees when we aren't talking
(25:27):
about it.
But we don't.
If the power is outside of ourwalls that are allowing our
identities to be politicized,and then we don't have a DEI
strategy to protect us from that, then we have every right to
have that conversation.
Right, you know.
(25:50):
It just means that we don'thave the skill set to do it in a
productive, constructive way,and there's this fear of loss of
control rather than leaning inon the collaboration that could
come out of it.
Justin (26:02):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, it's like.
I think it's a simple way tothink about it is you know, hey,
meta, as an example, and MarkZuckerberg, do you have LGBTQ
plus identifying employees?
If you do, your employees arehaving laws introduced that are
negatively impacting their lives.
(26:23):
Do you care about that?
Do you care about youremployees?
And I think that's theperspective that needs to be
taken.
Kim (26:31):
I thought that, and in so many organizations, will donate
to politicians, like in Florida.
An advocacy organizationapproached us and said hey, the
recent political donation youmade to X legislator is also
that same legislator issupportive of the anti-LGBTQ
plus laws taking effect inFlorida and you're a sponsor of
(26:55):
Pride and you have a contingencyof employees walking in Pride.
So we wanted to let you knowthat this politician is doing
that so you can stay integritywith your support of the
community.
Well, unfortunately, leadersfired back and were mad at the
advocacy group and so it's likeno, they just turned on the
(27:16):
light, you're doing this.
So their response to me waswell, we didn't want to get in
the middle of these culture wars.
I'm like, but you're fundingthe culture wars.
So if you're giving money tothese politicians, yes, you're
giving it to them saying, hey,thank you for protecting our
business interests and ourindustries, and you know that's
(27:38):
why you're doing it.
But then they're also involvedin these culture aspects.
You can't compartmentalize thatbecause they're not.
They're just taking the money,doing whatever they're going to
do.
So you know, the conversationhas to be within the power
dynamics between theorganization and the politicians
.
So it's not with the advocacygroup.
(28:01):
It's not with the employees,it's not with the customers, you
know, but with the employees.
It's not with the customers, butyet we're the ones that become
the collateral damage becauseorganizational leaders are not
having these conversations withpoliticians and legislators and
saying thank you for all yoursupport, but I cannot fund you
if you're going to put my people, my customers, my employees in
(28:23):
harm's way.
I can't, I can't, I will notfund you if you're going to
support this.
This is not okay, you know, andconnecting the dots that
culture impacts businessoutcomes and so many times
leaders don't make thatconnection, even though they
will purport values, they willtalk about belonging and
inclusion, but they still don'tmake the connection of intent
(28:47):
and impact.
So very interesting situationto work with that client because
they were literally firing backat the advocacy group.
Well, we've done all of thesethings, we've given all this
money, we've done all theseriver cleanups, and the advocacy
group is like okay, great,thank you.
That's apples, we're talkingabout oranges.
Justin (29:08):
Yeah.
Kim (29:09):
Because the leaders aren't making the connection, that
that's not the conversationwe're having and you're being
really defensive when we'resaying we can help you be in
integrity with yourself, but youhave to be consistent.
We're asking organizations tobe consistent.
Justin (29:26):
Yeah, it's great work that you're doing there.
I want to shift gears a littlebit and I know that we talked
about the role of religion inyour kind of upbringing and, you
know, kind of in your comingout process.
I'd love to talk about that andhow it impacted belonging in
(29:50):
that journey.
Kim (29:51):
Great question.
Yeah, I mentioned that I wasraised in a conservative
Christian environment all theway through high school.
You know the kind of placewhere everyone's white and you
sing for a hymnal and it soundslike a funeral every single
sunday because nobody has anykind of pizzazz.
(30:11):
Um, I've shown movies that rockand rolls from the devil.
You know no sex before marriage.
Marriage is only between a manand a woman, the whole thing.
So I felt like I belonged inthat.
Yeah, as a kid I loved the feltlittle.
(30:33):
You know wise men that we wouldplay out on the storyboard in
Sunday school.
I loved the stories.
I loved the moral compass.
I loved being introduced tobelieving that there's something
bigger, there's a greaterpurpose.
There is an energy out therethat created you and you get to
be in its like image.
(30:53):
I loved the kind of thosespiritual principles of it.
But it wasn't until I was likea junior in high school that I
realized that.
But it wasn't until I was like ajunior in high school that I
realized that this was reallyout of touch with life in my
(31:13):
experience and I did notrecognize that I was gay until I
was in my 20s and fell in lovewith a female roommate that had
just moved in, in love with afemale roommate that had just
moved in.
She's just walking down thehallway as she carries her lamp
into her new bedroom and I'mlike what is happening to me
right now?
What is happening right now?
(31:34):
The funny, funniest part ofthat story is I was getting
ready for work when I waswatching her walk up and down
the hallway with the lamp andwhatever, and I was getting
ready for work and I had walkedback.
I had walked into the closet toget my belt because I was
getting ready for work and I'mlike I walked in the closet and
I realized the fun with that.
(31:56):
I'm like I just walked in thecloset, huh.
But I actually started a two tothree year spiral for me because
I had a lot of difficultyreconciling and very, very
worried that God wouldn't loveme anymore kind of thing.
I didn't have a problem with,gay people apply to me and I
(32:20):
felt that it was threatening myvery existence as someone who
was very, very devout andfollowing all of the practices
that our denomination followed,and so it did get pretty dire
there for a while where Ithought the world would be
better off without me kind of athing.
(32:40):
And but bless my mom, who wasliving several states away from
me, and I called her and whileshe didn't understand and she
was very worried about me that'swhat she focused on she didn't
get hung up on.
You know, I'm 28 years old atthis point, so I'm not living
under her roof or anything.
I'm, you know, independent, soI had that privilege.
(33:02):
But she didn't put her lack ofunderstanding on me.
She didn't put judgment on me.
She just heard that herdaughter is really struggling
and considering some prettyserious decisions, and so that's
all she heard and she reallystepped up.
I didn't tell my dad for awhile because he's not really
good at that stuff.
So my mom and I are reallyclose, but she's been.
(33:25):
She was the one that raised mein the church so and I found
that it wasn't really myexternal family or friends at
first that were my big, it wasmy own internalized homophobia.
That was that almost cost me mylife.
And so I am very, very pleasedthat I had this interesting
(33:49):
awakening one time when I waskind of doing the whole like
falling on the floor.
God isn't going to love meanymore.
I'm so scared that God's notgoing to love me anymore.
And you know where you're onyour side on the carpet and
snot's coming out and you knowyou can't reach the Kleenex box
and it's all just kind of youknow pud.
You're on your side on thecarpet and snot's coming out and
you know you can't reach theKleenex box.
It's all just kind of you knowpuddling there on the carpet.
(34:09):
And I realized I remembered thisreally stupid poster that I had
when I was in second grade, oneof those scholastic posters
that you get when you get a bookorder and it said God don't
make no junk.
And I realized, well, whileit's grammatically incorrect, I
found the spiritual principlebehind it profound in that
(34:29):
moment and it just started, mademe laugh.
It just started, I just startedlaughing and then I realized
wait, wait, wait.
If I'm made in God's image oruniverse's image, I just what am
I doing?
Questioning the purpose of this?
(34:50):
This is, you know, this is whoI am.
I'm just awakening more to whoI am, which would solve the
mystery of why I was with thisguy for seven years and never
slept with him.
That was a total.
I thought it was theChristianity.
You know the commitment.
You know if we're not married.
It's not happening.
But no, it was actually becauseI'm gay.
Justin (35:11):
Yeah.
Kim (35:13):
So I was actually kicked out.
Just the opposite of belonging.
I was kicked out of the church,obviously, you know.
You know I didn't have myfriends anymore.
But my family struggled butthey didn't put it on me, they
went somewhere else to strugglewith it.
But there was some friction fora while there.
My sister didn't recognize myrelationship with this woman.
(35:33):
For a long time she didn't seeit as equal value to her and her
husband.
It wasn't easy peasy by anymeans.
When I even got, I startedhealing my own internalized
homophobia, but so I had justthe opposite of belonging when I
was going through the comingout experience.
But prior to that, yeah, when Iwas obeying the rules and I was
(35:56):
doing everything I was told todo, oh yeah, I completely
belonged.
But stepping out of that,having a sense of independence
and my own self-determination,oh no, absolutely not.
And that was personally.
But professionally I was fine.
I didn't have any problems atwork because I worked at a rock
radio station.
So they loved it.
(36:17):
They thought it was fantasticright, it's a rock radio station
, and but it took years, justin.
It took years for me to like.
I was going to start a hotlinefor what I called orphans,
people who are gay and Christian.
You know, I was like I wasreally lost.
I was, I was.
I fell through the cracks therebecause I didn't feel safe and
comfortable in the gay communityyet and I didn't.
(36:39):
I couldn't, I couldn't evencall myself that for a long time
and I couldn't even call myselfthat for a long time.
And I was also kind of lost innot knowing that.
I wasn't welcomed in thechurches that I was familiar
with.
I was told I couldn't lead anykind of a team when I had been
leading several teams, and sothere was definitely penalties
and consequences.
(36:59):
But I'll tell you, it's allworth it, it gets better, like
the Trevor Project says.
And now, not only do I feellike I belong in my family in
the work that I do, thespiritual practice I'm a
spiritual practitioner.
Now my mentor, my DEI mentorand coach, is a reverend who's a
gay woman out of LA.
(37:21):
Who's a gay woman out of LA.
So I have found my spaces.
But I think the most profoundsense of belonging has just been
within my own skin, within whoI am embracing becoming a
spiritual practitioner,embracing that and standing on
solid ground on my sexualidentity, so much so that I made
a documentary, loosely based onmy story called God and Gays
(37:43):
Bridging the Gap, and it'sonline.
It was made in 2005.
So my hair is don't judge me onmy hair, but it, you know.
I just I wanted to tell thestory and I wanted to help other
people feel a sense ofbelonging the way you know.
You know, because I was ableand continue, I'm able to
experience it.
Justin (38:03):
You know, because I was able and continue, I'm able to
experience it.
Thank you so much for sharingall of that.
It's I think one of the placesI'm going is just.
You know what's happening rightnow in the book bands and the
(38:29):
don't say gay bills like all ofthat is to create an experience
that replicates what you grew upwith.
Right, you know it's, it's, andthat's why I get, I get, so I
get so worked up about thosethings.
Because we need those.
The young versions of us needthose.
The young versions of us needthat representation, need some
sign somewhere that says, hey,it's okay to be who you are,
(38:53):
even if they're raised in ahousehold that is extremely
conservative Christian.
That tells them they're goingto hell.
That, you know, gives them aglimmer of hope that maybe
there's something out there thatI can, a way that I can belong,
a way that I can be who I am.
Kim (39:13):
And you're not broken and there's nothing wrong with you.
You're just evolving intolearning about who you are.
So I have found that, you know,universe wastes nothing.
So for me to be raised in thatkind of environment and being a
white person and now doing thiswork that I am, when people say,
you know, I can't, I can'tsupport, you know, gay people,
(39:36):
that's against the Bible andit's like, well, let's talk
about those 11 scriptures.
I know the scriptures so I canhave a conversation.
I'm not going to get intodebate.
I'm going to listen to you, youknow, and I'm going to, you
know, help you through your owndiscomfort, because this isn't
about the gay person that you'reupset at.
This is about your ownevolution.
(39:56):
It's about your discomfort.
So I'm focusing on you.
I'm not worried about that gayperson that you're saying is
going to hell, you know, becausethey're fine.
They're fine.
Universe has their back.
They're living their life,they're having their experience.
Let's talk about yourexperience.
Off for you.
(40:25):
What, what, what, what is itthat you're really struggling
with that?
You know that this person isreflecting upon you, that they
are allowed to have this senseof independence and authenticity
because you talk yeah, it's alot big part of your work is
authenticity.
When people and alok, you knowthe activist, the trans activist
, you know, look, you know talksabout this a lot.
It's just lgbtq plus, especiallygender non-conforming,
non-binary, transgender peoplewhen they're living their truth,
(40:47):
it's like people who have notgotten that permission, they've
not had the space in the room tofigure out who they are,
whether it has anything to dowith gender expression or sexual
orientation or not, just thesense of seeing somebody else
live in their truth and beingwho they are in their authentic
self.
When this person over here hasnever had that permission or
(41:09):
will, their love will bewithheld from them and all that
kind of stuff.
The anger is genuine, it's real, it's valid.
It's just they put it on thisperson, the trans person, over,
but it's actually about theirown limitations, their own lack
of safety and security andself-identification and all that
(41:31):
kind of stuff.
It's like so I want to spendtime with you here.
This person is going to go onand move on with their life, but
there's a reflection of theirexperience that's really
triggering for you.
How can I help you with that?
Justin (41:45):
Yeah, I love that perspective that it's about
their inability to lean intotheir own authenticity.
Kim (41:55):
They don't have the tools yeah.
Justin (41:58):
There's something powerful in that, and I'm going
to think about that for a whilebecause I don't.
Kim (42:05):
It helps with compassion, that's for sure, but still cut
it off.
It's like we're going to getthat person out of the scenario
because it's really not aboutthe trans person, right?
I don't.
You need attention.
You're clearly asking for it,even if it's in a negative way,
negative attention.
But it's like if you needsomebody to listen to you, let's
(42:34):
talk about how to work with youto step into your own
authenticity.
Justin (42:38):
Yeah, yeah, and that's the other perspective that I
always have on it is is how isthat trans person harming you?
What?
What are?
What are they doing?
So maybe you don't agree withthem, but they're still not
harming you.
Kim (42:58):
The authenticity is too much to handle.
For some people.
It's like their light is whenthey see someone who's trans the
trans person's light is justtoo blinding.
They can't handle it.
So they make it the transperson's problem that they can't
handle.
And so that's where we need to.
(43:19):
You know, in organizations, ifsomebody says we're not going to
do this, you know, have thisgay speaker come speak during
pride, or we're not going tohave these fires up on the, you
know, with the rainbow hands andstuff anymore, because that's
offensive and that's against myreligion.
And organizations have been, oh, okay, okay, no, no, no.
It's just like let's talk.
(43:42):
So here's our company values,right here.
You know, respect is one ofthem, inclusion is one of them,
you know, and so it's like wehave to, we have to hold the
line but invite people into thework.
So people are saying this isoffensive to me if you're going
to have these pride postersaround here, and it's like, ok,
how can we help you with that?
(44:02):
Because we believe in respectand that includes respect for
you and that includes respectfor you, you know.
But this we're not.
We're not backing off on this.
(44:23):
This is happening.
So what can, what can we do tohelp you, you know, be a part of
our culture moving.
What is it in Florida?
It's like what 11 people thatare primarily banning the books.
It's like you know.
So it's a bigger, it soundsreally really big and it is
impacting thousands of people.
My nephews and nieces are goingthrough public education in
Florida with none of this, youknow, historical accuracy at all
(44:46):
right, and so it's like this isa real impact, but it's led by
few.
So what can we do to hold theline to say, oh no, we stand for
life and we're not going to beputting on you know something
that we don't understand laws onother people.
It's just we have to takeresponsibility for what we say
(45:07):
and what we do.
But there's so many of us thathave been so accustomed to
things just going the way, howwe see them.
We've never gone throughpractices or drills or, you know
, skilling camps, you know, tobe able to, you know, handle
(45:27):
these kinds of changes, to beable to, you know, handle these
kinds of changes, and so what wedo is lash out like wounded
animals to try to regain control, which is what we're seeing
with the billionaires've beenseeing, especially around.
(45:48):
Higher education is, to me muchmore and more and more
demonstrative of the desperationof trying to hold onto control
rather than recognize theopportunity of the collaboration
.
Like I was saying earlier,desperation is so obvious to
(46:08):
many of us and we need to buildthe skills.
We need to build the skills andthis is about change management
as well but we can't stop beingwho we are authentically.
But we also have to make roomand have compassion for people
who this is brand new, forThey've never met a trans person
(46:31):
, you know and and they onlyknow how to try to get back into
the comfort zone andre-establish control, like
that's all they know and it's avery limited tool belt well, kim
, I want to thank you so muchfor your time today and I want
to thank you for the work thatyou do.
Justin (46:49):
You're doing amazing work in helping to transform
workplaces for others and makethem better, so thank you.
I'll put links in show notes,but if people want to reach out
to you and find you, where canthey find you?
Kim (47:09):
yeah, please pick up the book if it would be helpful to
you.
The conscious communicator, thefine art of not saying stupid
shit.
And then if you're interestedin the documentary in the 2005
look, it's called god and gaysbridging the gap.
It's available online.
Used to be on dvd.
Remember dvds justin back inthe day like, yeah, yes I have I
love, even my closet somewhereyeah, it came out on DVD
(47:29):
originally, so that's how old itis.
And then professionally, mywebsite is
kimclarkcommunicationscom.
Justin (47:37):
Great Well, Kim.
Thank you so much, and I'mdefinitely going to add the
documentary to my watch list.
Kim (47:44):
Great, yeah, Anyone who has Christianity, Catholicism or
even Judaism as part of theirexperience and are curious about
because I have some people whoare biblical scholars that talk
about the scriptures.
So if you need some tangibleways of having conversations
with people, you can't convincethem, but you can live your
(48:07):
truth and then be the role modelthat they seek to learn more
from.
Then the movie can be a reallypowerful validation, especially
for people who are going throughthe struggle right now.
Justin (48:21):
Great.
Well, thank you so much, kim,and thank you all for listening.
Join us again for anotherepisode of the Creating Longing
Podcast.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.