July 5, 2023 • 26 mins
Let us know what you think of this podcast!
What happens when you combine an honest conversation about identity, belonging, and society's expectations with a dash of personal experience? You get an insightful and thought-provoking episode featuring my long-time friend, Dr. Britt Andreata, CEO of Brain Aware Training and author of books on the brain science of success. As a white woman, married for twenty years, and bisexual, Britt joins me in discussing the Creating Belonging Model and her eye-opening experiences with race and societal expectations.
Together, we delve into the minimizing experiences of women in a predominantly male world and how society often teaches women to expect sexism. From sharing our personal stories of dealing with issues like childhood molestation to examining the science behind power and harassment, this episode is packed with raw and genuine conversation. We also explore the privilege of straight men and the expectations placed on women to attract a partner. Join us as we discuss the contextual nature of belonging and the work needed to dismantle oppressive structures that inhibit a truly inclusive world. Don't miss out on this engaging discussion that will leave you reflecting on your own experiences and the journey towards a more inclusive society.
Check out Carell Augustus' book, Black Hollywood: Reimagining Iconic Movie Moments. https://amzn.to/46crV66
You can access a free chapter of Britt's new book, Wired to Become, here: https://www.brittandreatta.com/books/wired-to-become/
Find Britt on LinkedIn
You can order your copy of Creating Belonging on Amazon.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Justin Reinert (00:01):
Hello, welcome to another episode of the
Creating Belonging podcast.
Today, my guest, Dr.
Britt Andreatta, is used tohaving people introduce her for
her because she's that big, buttoday I'm going to make Britt
introduce herself.
So, Britt, if you wouldn't mindsharing a little bit about
(00:22):
yourself?
Britt Andreatta (00:24):
I love that, Justin.
My name is Britt Andreatta, I'mthe CEO of Brain Aware Training
and I write books on the brainscience of success.
So I kind of synthesizeresearch from the world of
neuroscience and biology and allthe other sciences along with
big, big data on business issuescoming from, you know, global
(00:45):
giants like McKenzie and Gallupand all of them, and then I
really turn it into practicaltakeaways for learning
practitioners in particular, andthen those of us who have jobs
how to make worth the world ofwork a little bit more enjoyable
and more productive for all ofus.
So that's kind of myprofessional side.
(01:05):
Personally, I'm a mom of ateenager, so that's going really
well with driving andsnarkiness and all that fun
stuff.
I am married to my husband of20 years and, but I identify as
bisexual just for the listeningaudience and I'm also a cat
owner, so I'm oftentimes chasinglizards and gophers out of my
(01:30):
house that have been brought inas gifts.
Luckily, my kitties like tobring them to me live.
My favorite one was a snake.
So yeah, that's all good.
Justin Reinert (01:39):
Okay, Brett, seriously, you just blew my mind
for a second.
I've known you for eight years.
We've become like betterfriends over time, and you have
never disclosed to me youridentity as bisexual.
Britt Andreatta (01:54):
Well, I mean, it's out there in the world.
I've been public about it, somaybe you just didn't read the
right thing.
Justin Reinert (02:02):
Apparently well.
Thank you for sharing that.
Britt Andreatta (02:04):
Well, it's interesting too.
I mean, you know, as someonewho's been married and in a
committed relationship for 20years, I'm not exactly like out
on the dating scene or going toclubs and saying who am I
attracted to?
That, you know that part of mylife has kind of settled but I
still very much identify asbisexual and that's part of my
identity.
But you probably don't see meactively engaged with that
(02:25):
exploration anymore.
Justin Reinert (02:27):
Yeah, no, that makes sense, Thank you.
Thank you for sharing that.
What other you know, as peopleare getting used to with this
podcast, we usually have ourguests dig into some of their
identities.
What other identities would youlike to pull out for our
conversation today?
Britt Andreatta (02:44):
Yes, so for the listening audience, I am a
white woman and I have an Irishbackground, so I'm as white as
white can be.
I kind of glow a little bitblue in the sun.
I burn, don't tan.
I'm a first generation person.
My parents didn't completecollege, but I have a PhD.
(03:05):
I grew up very low income butI'm doing okay now.
I also am the child of a mom, asingle mom with mental illness,
and so have grown up in someabusive environments and had to
do a lot of therapy to workthrough that.
I consider myself ananti-racist who still it's a
(03:26):
lifelong journey to unlearnprivilege and bias and the
things that we were taught, butI consider myself a committed
ally to all communities.
What else?
I think those are the big ones.
Justin Reinert (03:45):
I get the unlearning thing is, it takes
work.
for sure, for sure.
Britt Andreatta (03:53):
Yeah.
I mean, as a mom, I've had somuch of my internalized
patriarchy and sexism reallyslap me in the face because a
thought will pop in my head ofsomething to say to my daughter
and it just shocks me sometimes.
Boys won't like it if you're too this, or boys won't like it if
(04:13):
you're too that and I don'tspeak it out loud, but it's just
like, oh gosh, that tape isthere.
And the amount of things that Ifind myself thinking that I
don't believe.
So there's this whole internaltape of thoughts that have been
installed that come to thesurface and they're a little
shocking sometimes.
Then you're like wait, wheredid that come from?
That is not who I am or what Ibelieve, but a lot of stuff
(04:35):
comes up.
I'm seeing a lot of theinternalized sexism right now as
a mom of a teenage girl.
Justin Reinert (04:40):
Well, as someone who does a lot of research in
neuroscience and studyingbehavior, things like that, I
think we'll definitely let'scome back around to what you're
finding in the research aroundthat.
Here's these things that I'mpopping up that I want to say
that I actually don't believe isan interesting thing to look at
(05:00):
.
But I want to get into thestuff that I love talking about
digging into some of thepersonal experiences of our
guests.
And so I know you're familiarwith the creating belonging
model And I would love to hearif you could pick one area of
the model that you have anexperience that you could relate
to and share that with us.
Britt Andreatta (05:21):
Yeah, I mean the one that really stands out
to me is overbearing, because asa white person I was very much
raised with total blinders onaround the impact of race and
that my race meant something andthat my experience of race was
very different than otherpeople's experience of race.
So, this all kind of came to myattention in college and those
(05:47):
blinders were ripped off veryquickly and painfully, but I'm
so grateful that they came off.
And I remember to this momentthe really shocking experience
that I had that started myexploration, and it was when I
was on a summer trip with agroup of friends and there was
like five or six of us all of uswere white, except for Carell
(06:09):
Augustus.
He's a famous photographer, hewasn't famous then and we all
went on a trip to Napa Valley,and we had been in a grocery
store and realized one of thewineries we were going to we
were all, I think we wereseniors or graduate school, one
of the wineries was closing.
And so, we were all rushing toand so we many of us had gotten
(06:29):
out in the car and Carell wascoming out of the store And I
was like Carell run, we're goingto be late.
And he just kept walking and wewere like Carell, hurry, come on
, run, Carell, run.
And he just sauntered his wayover and got in the car.
And we were like, dude, we'regoing to be late, and he looked
at us and he was like I am ablack man, I will never run from
(06:50):
a store.
Do you understand what thatcould do to me?
I could get killed for that.
And we were all just gobsmacked and shocked.
And then he went on to explainyou know how much he experiences
racial profiling that even theact of running from a store
could be enough of a trigger fora person or a police officer or
something to assume guilt first.
(07:11):
And it really was, it wasreally, God, it makes me sad
just to hear think about it.
I mean, I could hear the painin his voice and that was when I
realized that he lived in avery different world than I did.
And so, after that, many of usreally dug into the work and did
some really intentionallearning around privilege and
(07:32):
bias and race, and of coursethat leads you to all the other
isms too.
And so, I think that's what'shard about these conversations
is that, I know that people ofcolor, people who are in
marginalized communities livethe pain of being the target all
the time.
There's also pain, and when youlearn that the world that you
(07:54):
thought you lived in doesn'texist and it's really hard to
deal with that.
Sometimes it's called whitefragility, sometimes it's called
white guilt, but I also thinkit's just the shock and horror
of realizing that you've beennot only lied to about what the
world really is, but you've beenparticipating in it in ways
that you didn't know.
Justin Reinert (08:15):
Mm.
hmm, yeah, thank you forsharing that.
Britt Andreatta (08:18):
There's overbearing for you.
You made me cry in the firstfive minutes, Justin.
Justin Reinert (08:22):
I know, look at me, I look at me, I'm the new
Barbara Walters.
I, you know the overbearingpart of the model, I always I
make a little joke about how thestories that I share about
myself in the book are inbelonging and the stories I
(08:43):
share, especially in overbearing, are always of other people.
But I know that I know so muchof my life I've been in a place
of overbearing.
You know I talk a lot aboutgrowing up in rural Iowa and the
extreme blinders that that putson one.
And then and I can't remember ifI've talked about this before,
(09:04):
but then kind of you know goingalong my journey and then you
know embracing my gay identityand holding onto my gay identity
as like, oh well, I'mmarginalized too.
So, I'm just like everyone elsewho's marginalized, and I held
that until, you know more recentthan I would like to admit that
(09:28):
I finally realized that, youknow, while I have that part of
my marginalized identity, like Ihave a lot of other privileged
identities.
And so, you know, the work ofthe book I think, got me into
thinking about, wow, all thetimes that I've been an
overbearing and all the thingsthat I've done that have hurt
(09:52):
other people without realizingit.
So that overbearing one isinteresting and it's I think
it's powerful when we can find,when we've been there, because
it's really hard, like I talk alot about, we don't see
ourselves as bad people and sowhen we look at things like you
know being an overbearing, likewell, gosh, I wouldn't, I would
never do that to someone, but wedo.
Britt Andreatta (10:17):
Right.
Yeah, and I think you know thisintersectionality like we can,
we can go through each type ofidentity.
You know being married is aprivilege, being middle aged is
a privilege, and you lose thatprivilege when you're a child
and you lose it again as you age.
There's there, we all go in andout of privileged and targeted
(10:38):
communities, but then of course,depending on your background,
you could you could beoverwhelmingly stacked in the in
the privilege side, right?
So, it's complex.
I wanted to say that.
So, Krillin and I have beenlifelong friends and last year I
had the privilege of going tohis book signing.
He just produced a book calledBlack Hollywood: Reimagining
(11:02):
Iconic Movie Moments, where hetook all these classic movie
moments from Singin' in the Rainand King Kong and all of them
and reimagined them with blackactors, and I loved it.
I loved seeing thatrepresentation, I loved seeing
the beauty of his work.
But of course, he got a lot ofpushbacks, and I literally just
went and saw The Little Mermaidlast weekend, which is also
(11:22):
having push back.
It's amazing how much privilegeliterally colors people's views
of what they think they'reentitled to.
I'm entitled to have mycharacters look the way I want
them to look, and I want them toreflect me, and it's just, it's
just.
It's just interesting how, howmuch the discomfort of
(11:44):
difference really freaks peopleout.
Justin Reinert (11:47):
It's I mean, I think part of it is, is change,
which I know you've researchedthe Neuroscience behind how we
react to change, and so I thinkpart of it is just that, and
people feeling like they'relosing something, which is
unfortunate because you're not.
Britt Andreatta (12:08):
Right, yeah, I mean a lot of our resistance to
change of all kinds is that wefirst we first perceive change
as potential danger.
Our biology is wired that wayand then we focus on all the
things that could go wrong orthat we could lose, again wired
for our survival, and then overtime we can start to embrace the
new idea and get comfortablewith it and get used to it.
(12:29):
You know, that's just.
That's true of all change.
And then when race or sexualorientation or classes added to
the mix, that can create thatreaction.
While normal can be verypainful to other people and some
people are so freaked out buttheir own reaction, they just
want to stop the change.
Whatever it is right, shut thatchange down.
(12:50):
That change is toouncomfortable for me.
Justin Reinert (12:52):
So, looking at the model, I love that you dove
right in and shared anoverbearing story, because it's
not many people want to go there.
But I'd love to hear when Italk to folks about the model,
oftentimes I hear from women ohwow, I didn't realize I was in
(13:14):
minimizing.
This is actually.
This is describing myexperience that I didn't know
was happening.
I'm curious if you have anythoughts or experiences that you
relate back to the minimizingarea.
Britt Andreatta (13:27):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean definitely.
As a woman, I have had tonavigate a man's world and I was
very much raised by a motherwho instilled in me that we're
constantly having to meet men'sexpectations.
Please men, be attractive tomen, make men happy, and so
(13:49):
that's definitely there and I'mseeing it now as a parent and
what pops up in my head.
As a woman, I have definitelyexperienced sexism, active
sexism.
I have experienced levels of Iwas molested by a man in a
grocery store as a child, insecond grade.
(14:09):
I have been on dates where Iwasn't sure they would stop when
I was saying no and realizedthat I didn't know how this was
gonna turn out.
So, it was interesting.
I did a webinar during the MeToo movement, kind of explaining
(14:30):
the science behind power andharassment, both from the
harasser's biology as well asthe victim's biology.
And I realized the survivor'sbiology and putting that
together I realized, oh my gosh,there's all these moments that
I've experienced this.
But as a woman, you're kind oftaught to expect it like you're
taught that the stats aren'tgood, that you will likely be
(14:52):
assaulted in your lifetime, andyou're taught ways to protect
yourself.
And that's just kind of woveninto how we're educated about
how to navigate the world.
I remember having this onereally interesting moment.
I used to teach collegestudents and we were teaching
privilege and oppression andsome of these concepts in a
class, and young men inparticular when they're
(15:19):
navigating this concept of queeridentity.
You know, young men 18 year oldmen who identify themselves as
straight oftentimes get veryuncomfortable with the
conversation, and I rememberedthis gentleman sharing a story
about how his parents had abusiness in San Francisco and
they expected him to work at atable during a gay pride event.
(15:39):
And he was sharing the storyabout how bothered he was
because while he sat at thistable, guys were walking by and
like cat calling and whistlingat him and one guy handed him
his phone number and he just waslike horrified that he has
experienced some sexualattention that he did not want.
And the 18 year old girls inthe classroom just looked at him
(16:00):
and were like dude, I'm awaitress.
That happens to me every day,every shift I work.
That's how I'm treated.
And it got me thinking that thisis really an important thing to
unpack, because I thinkparticularly white, straight men
grow up in such a world ofprivilege that they're not used
to dealing with them, not having100% control over how they're
(16:21):
treated and or how peopleperceive them, And I thought,
huh, we really need to giveyoung people better skills
around that so that they're notso shooken if it happens to them
right, Nobody was attacking him, nobody was assaulting him.
They were just flirting withhim and it freaked him out.
(16:42):
But I realized that he was notused to that.
He was not used to being in aposition where it was kind of
expected that would happen.
Justin Reinert (16:50):
Yeah, I mean, I've definitely experienced that
a lot, from like, oh gosh, Iwouldn't want to go to, from
straight friends, like, oh, Ican't go to a gay bar because I
don't want to get hit on.
I'm like, well, why, who cares?
Right, I mean that, and orrelay that back to the way that
you behave with the opposite sexthen, right?
(17:11):
Yeah, so something I wasthinking of I want to rewind a
little bit, because so you weretalking about kind of your
experience of assault and orjust kind of you know, unwanted
advances or no, you know, is nogoing to stop this, the other
side of that being your mother,who's like you need to be
(17:31):
attractive to men.
You need to pull that in.
Like I'm curious, I want to diginto that a little bit more,
because you're sitting in themiddle of that like what's?
I'm going to stop there and seewhat you're thinking, how
that's resonating.
Britt Andreatta (17:43):
I think women in this society, in American
society, and certainly of ageneration I don't think this is
true for teenagers today, butit was very much you are in the
male gaze and so you want todate and attract a good husband.
I mean, my dad really told melike you should learn to golf,
(18:05):
because the rich guys, the one'sthat would make good husbands
golf and you're gonna meet themon a golf course.
So, this whole thing aroundlike ultimately your goal and it
was true for their generation.
You know, my mom definitelylived in a generation where you
needed to get that husband.
And remember then, the husbandat the time I mean this was not
that long ago the husbands wereable to know the medical records
(18:28):
, husbands could choose mentalhealth treatments for their
wives.
All of this stuff was somethingthat was the reality of that
time and place and so you knowthey were raised with those
values, and they instilled thisto the next generation.
So, I was definitely raised withthis idea of you need to
attract a man, you need to bepretty, you need to be not too
(18:50):
loud, not too smart.
You know being too smart willscare some men.
So, I had messages around kindof dumbing myself down, not
laughing too loud, looking cute,but you're right, like, doing
those behaviors then become thevery things that make you make
it your fault when somethinghappens to you.
Right, like, I should lookcute, and I should be appealing
(19:14):
to go on a date and be asked todate, but then later those
things are then used to victimblame, right?
So how men are taught to readthose signals I think is really
interesting too, in terms of howmuch it gives them permission,
right?
And we're seeing a lot of thisin the conversations right now
(19:35):
around bodily autonomy and therole of women's bodies in
society.
We're really going backwardsright now and it's very scary.
But I think that there are agroup of men who really want to
return to the days where theyowned a woman and the woman
stayed home and made theirdinner and did every you know
(19:56):
her whole job was to make himcomfortable, and that world
doesn't exist anymore and I canimagine for those who got to
live that world it feels like areal bummer to lose all of that.
I don't know, I feel like it'sa big question.
Justin Reinert (20:15):
Yeah, no, it is.
But you've actually illuminatedsomething for me that, relating
it back to the minimizing areaof the model, what I'm hearing
from you is all of thesemessages that you were getting
was programming minimizing intoyou right?
(20:35):
Is like forget about who youare and who you want to be.
Here's all of these messagesthat you need to abide by so
that you attract other people,so that other people are
comfortable, and I don't knowthat I've heard it that
explicitly.
I think there's the undertoneof, like you know, like I said,
I hear from a lot of women thatthey are like, wow, minimizing
(20:57):
is, I didn't realize that'swhere I sat a lot, but I haven't
heard anyone so clearlyarticulate that it is the
program's societal messages thatput you there.
Britt Andreatta (21:12):
I've had the experience of in my own work as
an anti-racist and my own workas an ally, be honored to have
people of color share theirauthentic stories with us and
talking about all the messagesthat they grew up with around
being acceptable and minimizingtheir risk of being a target.
(21:35):
Don't drive while , you knowthe whole thing around.
Well, Carell's story, I'm nevergoing to run out of a store.
Who taught him that?
Even if his parents didn'texplicitly say it?
but I can tell you most blackparents definitely tell their
children how to avoid beingattacked or being the target of
police.
He picked it up in school.
(21:55):
He picked it up by watching thenews.
He picked it up by seeing whathappened in his neighborhood.
All children of targetedcommunities are getting those
messages around.
Here are some survival tacticsto make the group in power happy
(22:16):
with you how you dress, how youspeak, how you engage and also
how to protect yourself fromwhen members of that same
community cross over and areintending you harm, how to
survive that harm or how tominimize that harm.
It's a very complex set ofmessages that make it really
hard to navigate.
Justin Reinert (22:37):
Yeah, it makes me think about.
I just keep re-bouncing all ofthis at the model and thinking
about, one of the things I loveabout this podcast is talking to
people and it's helping me seenew perspectives on the work.
What I talk about in Recluse isthat it's okay if that's what
(23:00):
you need to be safe.
It's interesting because partof me wants to say, hey, let's
use this kind of a conversationto illuminate and say let's
rethink the social programmingand allow people to be
themselves.
However, the whole world isn'tnecessarily ready for that.
(23:22):
There's a careful balance ofknowing when you need to protect
yourself versus finding spaceswhere you can belong.
That was one of the, I want tobounce this at you because then
this is related.
(23:44):
In my last episode with Vanessa,we talked about how she, as a
trans woman, first found hercommunity of other trans folks.
It was the first time when shereally felt like she could move
into being herself and being ina place of belonging.
(24:05):
I'm curious.
I love this idea of the "wedon't necessarily have to belong
everywhere.
It would be nice, it would begreat, but there are those
places where we comfortablybelong.
I'm curious what have thosespaces been for you?
Britt Andreatta (24:24):
That's a great question.
The one thing I would say aboutthe model is we don't live in
one quadrant all the time.
We're bouncing back in thesespaces.
It's very contextual who we arearound and what signals we're
picking up in the environment inthat moment.
I could see you feel one way inyour house, and then you get in
the car, and you feel anotherway on the road.
(24:45):
Then you pop into a coffeeshop, and you feel another way
there.
Then you get to your office,and you feel another way there.
It's constantly moving.
I think we're in agreement,though, that we need to continue
to do the work to get rid ofthe structures and the long held
views and beliefs that createthis whole thing.
Nobody's happy in thisenvironment.
(25:06):
Everyone's feeling tied to it.
It's just folks with power wantto continue it, but they're not
even happy with it either.
I think we're going to getthere.
We're making progress, but it'spainful and it's hard.
In terms of my sense ofbelonging.
Hello, welcome to another episode of the
Creating Belonging podcast.
Today, my guest, Dr.
Britt Andreatta, is used tohaving people introduce her for
her because she's that big, buttoday I'm going to make Britt
introduce herself.
So, Britt, if you wouldn't mindsharing a little bit about
(00:22):
yourself?
Britt Andreatta (00:24):
I love that, Justin.
My name is Britt Andreatta, I'mthe CEO of Brain Aware Training
and I write books on the brainscience of success.
So I kind of synthesizeresearch from the world of
neuroscience and biology and allthe other sciences along with
big, big data on business issuescoming from, you know, global
(00:45):
giants like McKenzie and Gallupand all of them, and then I
really turn it into practicaltakeaways for learning
practitioners in particular, andthen those of us who have jobs
how to make worth the world ofwork a little bit more enjoyable
and more productive for all ofus.
So that's kind of myprofessional side.
(01:05):
Personally, I'm a mom of ateenager, so that's going really
well with driving andsnarkiness and all that fun
stuff.
I am married to my husband of20 years and, but I identify as
bisexual just for the listeningaudience and I'm also a cat
owner, so I'm oftentimes chasinglizards and gophers out of my
(01:30):
house that have been brought inas gifts.
Luckily, my kitties like tobring them to me live.
My favorite one was a snake.
So yeah, that's all good.
Justin Reinert (01:39):
Okay, Brett, seriously, you just blew my mind
for a second.
I've known you for eight years.
We've become like betterfriends over time, and you have
never disclosed to me youridentity as bisexual.
Britt Andreatta (01:54):
Well, I mean, it's out there in the world.
I've been public about it, somaybe you just didn't read the
right thing.
Justin Reinert (02:02):
Apparently well.
Thank you for sharing that.
Britt Andreatta (02:04):
Well, it's interesting too.
I mean, you know, as someonewho's been married and in a
committed relationship for 20years, I'm not exactly like out
on the dating scene or going toclubs and saying who am I
attracted to?
That, you know that part of mylife has kind of settled but I
still very much identify asbisexual and that's part of my
identity.
But you probably don't see meactively engaged with that
(02:25):
exploration anymore.
Justin Reinert (02:27):
Yeah, no, that makes sense, Thank you.
Thank you for sharing that.
What other you know, as peopleare getting used to with this
podcast, we usually have ourguests dig into some of their
identities.
What other identities would youlike to pull out for our
conversation today?
Britt Andreatta (02:44):
Yes, so for the listening audience, I am a
white woman and I have an Irishbackground, so I'm as white as
white can be.
I kind of glow a little bitblue in the sun.
I burn, don't tan.
I'm a first generation person.
My parents didn't completecollege, but I have a PhD.
(03:05):
I grew up very low income butI'm doing okay now.
I also am the child of a mom, asingle mom with mental illness,
and so have grown up in someabusive environments and had to
do a lot of therapy to workthrough that.
I consider myself ananti-racist who still it's a
(03:26):
lifelong journey to unlearnprivilege and bias and the
things that we were taught, butI consider myself a committed
ally to all communities.
What else?
I think those are the big ones.
Justin Reinert (03:45):
I get the unlearning thing is, it takes
work.
for sure, for sure.
Britt Andreatta (03:53):
Yeah.
I mean, as a mom, I've had somuch of my internalized
patriarchy and sexism reallyslap me in the face because a
thought will pop in my head ofsomething to say to my daughter
and it just shocks me sometimes.
Boys won't like it if you're too this, or boys won't like it if
(04:13):
you're too that and I don'tspeak it out loud, but it's just
like, oh gosh, that tape isthere.
And the amount of things that Ifind myself thinking that I
don't believe.
So there's this whole internaltape of thoughts that have been
installed that come to thesurface and they're a little
shocking sometimes.
Then you're like wait, wheredid that come from?
That is not who I am or what Ibelieve, but a lot of stuff
(04:35):
comes up.
I'm seeing a lot of theinternalized sexism right now as
a mom of a teenage girl.
Justin Reinert (04:40):
Well, as someone who does a lot of research in
neuroscience and studyingbehavior, things like that, I
think we'll definitely let'scome back around to what you're
finding in the research aroundthat.
Here's these things that I'mpopping up that I want to say
that I actually don't believe isan interesting thing to look at
(05:00):
.
But I want to get into thestuff that I love talking about
digging into some of thepersonal experiences of our
guests.
And so I know you're familiarwith the creating belonging
model And I would love to hearif you could pick one area of
the model that you have anexperience that you could relate
to and share that with us.
Britt Andreatta (05:21):
Yeah, I mean the one that really stands out
to me is overbearing, because asa white person I was very much
raised with total blinders onaround the impact of race and
that my race meant something andthat my experience of race was
very different than otherpeople's experience of race.
So, this all kind of came to myattention in college and those
(05:47):
blinders were ripped off veryquickly and painfully, but I'm
so grateful that they came off.
And I remember to this momentthe really shocking experience
that I had that started myexploration, and it was when I
was on a summer trip with agroup of friends and there was
like five or six of us all of uswere white, except for Carell
(06:09):
Augustus.
He's a famous photographer, hewasn't famous then and we all
went on a trip to Napa Valley,and we had been in a grocery
store and realized one of thewineries we were going to we
were all, I think we wereseniors or graduate school, one
of the wineries was closing.
And so, we were all rushing toand so we many of us had gotten
(06:29):
out in the car and Carell wascoming out of the store And I
was like Carell run, we're goingto be late.
And he just kept walking and wewere like Carell, hurry, come on
, run, Carell, run.
And he just sauntered his wayover and got in the car.
And we were like, dude, we'regoing to be late, and he looked
at us and he was like I am ablack man, I will never run from
(06:50):
a store.
Do you understand what thatcould do to me?
I could get killed for that.
And we were all just gobsmacked and shocked.
And then he went on to explainyou know how much he experiences
racial profiling that even theact of running from a store
could be enough of a trigger fora person or a police officer or
something to assume guilt first.
(07:11):
And it really was, it wasreally, God, it makes me sad
just to hear think about it.
I mean, I could hear the painin his voice and that was when I
realized that he lived in avery different world than I did.
And so, after that, many of usreally dug into the work and did
some really intentionallearning around privilege and
(07:32):
bias and race, and of coursethat leads you to all the other
isms too.
And so, I think that's what'shard about these conversations
is that, I know that people ofcolor, people who are in
marginalized communities livethe pain of being the target all
the time.
There's also pain, and when youlearn that the world that you
(07:54):
thought you lived in doesn'texist and it's really hard to
deal with that.
Sometimes it's called whitefragility, sometimes it's called
white guilt, but I also thinkit's just the shock and horror
of realizing that you've beennot only lied to about what the
world really is, but you've beenparticipating in it in ways
that you didn't know.
Justin Reinert (08:15):
Mm.
hmm, yeah, thank you forsharing that.
Britt Andreatta (08:18):
There's overbearing for you.
You made me cry in the firstfive minutes, Justin.
Justin Reinert (08:22):
I know, look at me, I look at me, I'm the new
Barbara Walters.
I, you know the overbearingpart of the model, I always I
make a little joke about how thestories that I share about
myself in the book are inbelonging and the stories I
(08:43):
share, especially in overbearing, are always of other people.
But I know that I know so muchof my life I've been in a place
of overbearing.
You know I talk a lot aboutgrowing up in rural Iowa and the
extreme blinders that that putson one.
And then and I can't remember ifI've talked about this before,
(09:04):
but then kind of you know goingalong my journey and then you
know embracing my gay identityand holding onto my gay identity
as like, oh well, I'mmarginalized too.
So, I'm just like everyone elsewho's marginalized, and I held
that until, you know more recentthan I would like to admit that
(09:28):
I finally realized that, youknow, while I have that part of
my marginalized identity, like Ihave a lot of other privileged
identities.
And so, you know, the work ofthe book I think, got me into
thinking about, wow, all thetimes that I've been an
overbearing and all the thingsthat I've done that have hurt
(09:52):
other people without realizingit.
So that overbearing one isinteresting and it's I think
it's powerful when we can find,when we've been there, because
it's really hard, like I talk alot about, we don't see
ourselves as bad people and sowhen we look at things like you
know being an overbearing, likewell, gosh, I wouldn't, I would
never do that to someone, but wedo.
Britt Andreatta (10:17):
Right.
Yeah, and I think you know thisintersectionality like we can,
we can go through each type ofidentity.
You know being married is aprivilege, being middle aged is
a privilege, and you lose thatprivilege when you're a child
and you lose it again as you age.
There's there, we all go in andout of privileged and targeted
(10:38):
communities, but then of course,depending on your background,
you could you could beoverwhelmingly stacked in the in
the privilege side, right?
So, it's complex.
I wanted to say that.
So, Krillin and I have beenlifelong friends and last year I
had the privilege of going tohis book signing.
He just produced a book calledBlack Hollywood: Reimagining
(11:02):
Iconic Movie Moments, where hetook all these classic movie
moments from Singin' in the Rainand King Kong and all of them
and reimagined them with blackactors, and I loved it.
I loved seeing thatrepresentation, I loved seeing
the beauty of his work.
But of course, he got a lot ofpushbacks, and I literally just
went and saw The Little Mermaidlast weekend, which is also
(11:22):
having push back.
It's amazing how much privilegeliterally colors people's views
of what they think they'reentitled to.
I'm entitled to have mycharacters look the way I want
them to look, and I want them toreflect me, and it's just, it's
just.
It's just interesting how, howmuch the discomfort of
(11:44):
difference really freaks peopleout.
Justin Reinert (11:47):
It's I mean, I think part of it is, is change,
which I know you've researchedthe Neuroscience behind how we
react to change, and so I thinkpart of it is just that, and
people feeling like they'relosing something, which is
unfortunate because you're not.
Britt Andreatta (12:08):
Right, yeah, I mean a lot of our resistance to
change of all kinds is that wefirst we first perceive change
as potential danger.
Our biology is wired that wayand then we focus on all the
things that could go wrong orthat we could lose, again wired
for our survival, and then overtime we can start to embrace the
new idea and get comfortablewith it and get used to it.
(12:29):
You know, that's just.
That's true of all change.
And then when race or sexualorientation or classes added to
the mix, that can create thatreaction.
While normal can be verypainful to other people and some
people are so freaked out buttheir own reaction, they just
want to stop the change.
Whatever it is right, shut thatchange down.
(12:50):
That change is toouncomfortable for me.
Justin Reinert (12:52):
So, looking at the model, I love that you dove
right in and shared anoverbearing story, because it's
not many people want to go there.
But I'd love to hear when Italk to folks about the model,
oftentimes I hear from women ohwow, I didn't realize I was in
(13:14):
minimizing.
This is actually.
This is describing myexperience that I didn't know
was happening.
I'm curious if you have anythoughts or experiences that you
relate back to the minimizingarea.
Britt Andreatta (13:27):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean definitely.
As a woman, I have had tonavigate a man's world and I was
very much raised by a motherwho instilled in me that we're
constantly having to meet men'sexpectations.
Please men, be attractive tomen, make men happy, and so
(13:49):
that's definitely there and I'mseeing it now as a parent and
what pops up in my head.
As a woman, I have definitelyexperienced sexism, active
sexism.
I have experienced levels of Iwas molested by a man in a
grocery store as a child, insecond grade.
(14:09):
I have been on dates where Iwasn't sure they would stop when
I was saying no and realizedthat I didn't know how this was
gonna turn out.
So, it was interesting.
I did a webinar during the MeToo movement, kind of explaining
(14:30):
the science behind power andharassment, both from the
harasser's biology as well asthe victim's biology.
And I realized the survivor'sbiology and putting that
together I realized, oh my gosh,there's all these moments that
I've experienced this.
But as a woman, you're kind oftaught to expect it like you're
taught that the stats aren'tgood, that you will likely be
(14:52):
assaulted in your lifetime, andyou're taught ways to protect
yourself.
And that's just kind of woveninto how we're educated about
how to navigate the world.
I remember having this onereally interesting moment.
I used to teach collegestudents and we were teaching
privilege and oppression andsome of these concepts in a
class, and young men inparticular when they're
(15:19):
navigating this concept of queeridentity.
You know, young men 18 year oldmen who identify themselves as
straight oftentimes get veryuncomfortable with the
conversation, and I rememberedthis gentleman sharing a story
about how his parents had abusiness in San Francisco and
they expected him to work at atable during a gay pride event.
(15:39):
And he was sharing the storyabout how bothered he was
because while he sat at thistable, guys were walking by and
like cat calling and whistlingat him and one guy handed him
his phone number and he just waslike horrified that he has
experienced some sexualattention that he did not want.
And the 18 year old girls inthe classroom just looked at him
(16:00):
and were like dude, I'm awaitress.
That happens to me every day,every shift I work.
That's how I'm treated.
And it got me thinking that thisis really an important thing to
unpack, because I thinkparticularly white, straight men
grow up in such a world ofprivilege that they're not used
to dealing with them, not having100% control over how they're
(16:21):
treated and or how peopleperceive them, And I thought,
huh, we really need to giveyoung people better skills
around that so that they're notso shooken if it happens to them
right, Nobody was attacking him, nobody was assaulting him.
They were just flirting withhim and it freaked him out.
(16:42):
But I realized that he was notused to that.
He was not used to being in aposition where it was kind of
expected that would happen.
Justin Reinert (16:50):
Yeah, I mean, I've definitely experienced that
a lot, from like, oh gosh, Iwouldn't want to go to, from
straight friends, like, oh, Ican't go to a gay bar because I
don't want to get hit on.
I'm like, well, why, who cares?
Right, I mean that, and orrelay that back to the way that
you behave with the opposite sexthen, right?
(17:11):
Yeah, so something I wasthinking of I want to rewind a
little bit, because so you weretalking about kind of your
experience of assault and orjust kind of you know, unwanted
advances or no, you know, is nogoing to stop this, the other
side of that being your mother,who's like you need to be
(17:31):
attractive to men.
You need to pull that in.
Like I'm curious, I want to diginto that a little bit more,
because you're sitting in themiddle of that like what's?
I'm going to stop there and seewhat you're thinking, how
that's resonating.
Britt Andreatta (17:43):
I think women in this society, in American
society, and certainly of ageneration I don't think this is
true for teenagers today, butit was very much you are in the
male gaze and so you want todate and attract a good husband.
I mean, my dad really told melike you should learn to golf,
(18:05):
because the rich guys, the one'sthat would make good husbands
golf and you're gonna meet themon a golf course.
So, this whole thing aroundlike ultimately your goal and it
was true for their generation.
You know, my mom definitelylived in a generation where you
needed to get that husband.
And remember then, the husbandat the time I mean this was not
that long ago the husbands wereable to know the medical records
(18:28):
, husbands could choose mentalhealth treatments for their
wives.
All of this stuff was somethingthat was the reality of that
time and place and so you knowthey were raised with those
values, and they instilled thisto the next generation.
So, I was definitely raised withthis idea of you need to
attract a man, you need to bepretty, you need to be not too
(18:50):
loud, not too smart.
You know being too smart willscare some men.
So, I had messages around kindof dumbing myself down, not
laughing too loud, looking cute,but you're right, like, doing
those behaviors then become thevery things that make you make
it your fault when somethinghappens to you.
Right, like, I should lookcute, and I should be appealing
(19:14):
to go on a date and be asked todate, but then later those
things are then used to victimblame, right?
So how men are taught to readthose signals I think is really
interesting too, in terms of howmuch it gives them permission,
right?
And we're seeing a lot of thisin the conversations right now
(19:35):
around bodily autonomy and therole of women's bodies in
society.
We're really going backwardsright now and it's very scary.
But I think that there are agroup of men who really want to
return to the days where theyowned a woman and the woman
stayed home and made theirdinner and did every you know
(19:56):
her whole job was to make himcomfortable, and that world
doesn't exist anymore and I canimagine for those who got to
live that world it feels like areal bummer to lose all of that.
I don't know, I feel like it'sa big question.
Justin Reinert (20:15):
Yeah, no, it is.
But you've actually illuminatedsomething for me that, relating
it back to the minimizing areaof the model, what I'm hearing
from you is all of thesemessages that you were getting
was programming minimizing intoyou right?
(20:35):
Is like forget about who youare and who you want to be.
Here's all of these messagesthat you need to abide by so
that you attract other people,so that other people are
comfortable, and I don't knowthat I've heard it that
explicitly.
I think there's the undertoneof, like you know, like I said,
I hear from a lot of women thatthey are like, wow, minimizing
(20:57):
is, I didn't realize that'swhere I sat a lot, but I haven't
heard anyone so clearlyarticulate that it is the
program's societal messages thatput you there.
Britt Andreatta (21:12):
I've had the experience of in my own work as
an anti-racist and my own workas an ally, be honored to have
people of color share theirauthentic stories with us and
talking about all the messagesthat they grew up with around
being acceptable and minimizingtheir risk of being a target.
(21:35):
Don't drive while , you knowthe whole thing around.
Well, Carell's story, I'm nevergoing to run out of a store.
Who taught him that?
Even if his parents didn'texplicitly say it?
but I can tell you most blackparents definitely tell their
children how to avoid beingattacked or being the target of
police.
He picked it up in school.
(21:55):
He picked it up by watching thenews.
He picked it up by seeing whathappened in his neighborhood.
All children of targetedcommunities are getting those
messages around.
Here are some survival tacticsto make the group in power happy
(22:16):
with you how you dress, how youspeak, how you engage and also
how to protect yourself fromwhen members of that same
community cross over and areintending you harm, how to
survive that harm or how tominimize that harm.
It's a very complex set ofmessages that make it really
hard to navigate.
Justin Reinert (22:37):
Yeah, it makes me think about.
I just keep re-bouncing all ofthis at the model and thinking
about, one of the things I loveabout this podcast is talking to
people and it's helping me seenew perspectives on the work.
What I talk about in Recluse isthat it's okay if that's what
(23:00):
you need to be safe.
It's interesting because partof me wants to say, hey, let's
use this kind of a conversationto illuminate and say let's
rethink the social programmingand allow people to be
themselves.
However, the whole world isn'tnecessarily ready for that.
(23:22):
There's a careful balance ofknowing when you need to protect
yourself versus finding spaceswhere you can belong.
That was one of the, I want tobounce this at you because then
this is related.
(23:44):
In my last episode with Vanessa,we talked about how she, as a
trans woman, first found hercommunity of other trans folks.
It was the first time when shereally felt like she could move
into being herself and being ina place of belonging.
(24:05):
I'm curious.
I love this idea of the "wedon't necessarily have to belong
everywhere.
It would be nice, it would begreat, but there are those
places where we comfortablybelong.
I'm curious what have thosespaces been for you?
Britt Andreatta (24:24):
That's a great question.
The one thing I would say aboutthe model is we don't live in
one quadrant all the time.
We're bouncing back in thesespaces.
It's very contextual who we arearound and what signals we're
picking up in the environment inthat moment.
I could see you feel one way inyour house, and then you get in
the car, and you feel anotherway on the road.
(24:45):
Then you pop into a coffeeshop, and you feel another way
there.
Then you get to your office,and you feel another way there.
It's constantly moving.
I think we're in agreement,though, that we need to continue
to do the work to get rid ofthe structures and the long held
views and beliefs that createthis whole thing.
Nobody's happy in thisenvironment.
(25:06):
Everyone's feeling tied to it.
It's just folks with power wantto continue it, but they're not
even happy with it either.
I think we're going to getthere.
We're making progress, but it'spainful and it's hard.
In terms of my sense ofbelonging.
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